Nobody Understands Power Scaling

[@nemesisbloodryche22]

Plenty of people have good points to make and I understand that there is definitely something to be said about how arbitrary it is which laws of physics do or don't get followed in this hobby. But can we maybe stop the just, ridiculous amount of slurs I've had to delete comments over? This hobby is just fun and shit, intense heated arguing over this stuff and whether people are inherently bad for enjoying it is pushing the line on what's ok, but slurs? Really lads? here are the tracks Trapped in Despair Birth by Exile Blackout Action Unforgiving Justice Fear the Worst Hope For Sin YOU DONE SH*T OF FUCK Invitation to Pyroland A Destined Fantasy The World Rings Out

[@christianramirez6578]

FYI this a power scaling related, people want death battle 2025 to be canceled so they need to clean house on the search team. Honestly I don't think it might work let alone try to improve

[@tannertrusler674]

Doesn’t pertain to the video but still gonna say it. Thanks for still making videos, Nem! I have enjoyed the predictions and reviews you have made as well as the Not Death Battle videos. Keep up the good work! And if you don’t take compliments well, *loads gun* TAKE THE COMPLIMENT!

[@imakecontent2206]

Great vid, Nem. I know a part of me still wants to see you review Frieza vs Megatron, but I also respect the video you made about it years ago, just keep doing your thing

[@Guns_Blazin]

Btw, will you ever do a list of your favourite Therewolf commissions?

[@dylancuevas8264]

No need Nem, I know that's Trapped in Despair from my most wanted matchup Springtrap vs Junko Enoshima in the opening! That's all that matters lmao!

[@pablogarcia6188]

I know its always whoever the writer wants to win, but I also think its important to keep charters power consistent

[@caindain2179]

Either way- Can we just fucking enjoy the story?!

[@OmniDan26]

No it's not.

[@voiceunderthecovers]

@@OmniDan26 Your media illiteracy is astounding.

[@stephen7587]

If the writer wants 5'1 John from accounting to defeat Goreplex the Ash Covered, a nation slaughtering monster the size of a building with an army 10 million strong, a villain of a 10 novel book series that's been undefeated despite the winding and lengthy efforts of a crack team of protags, a true big bad and a franchise ending villain, the writer can do that. He's a bad writer and I no longer take seriously his work. Power in a series, especially an action based or fantasy series is directly tied to motivation, character, and themes. How do you establish the villain of a series without making him powerful? How do you make your hero feel like he should defeat him? You make him similarly powerful

[@samant7101]

@@voiceunderthecoverssure, the guy you responded to made no argument, but then you go and start throwing media literacy shade like a madman. Powerscaling isn't even that related to media literacy, I kind of agree that authors don't decide who wins so i cant just explain how the guy is wrong, but this is not really a matter of media literacy, maybe writing knowledge.

[@hdckighfkvhvgmk]

The point people often miss when criticizing the practice of powerscaling is that the concept of powerscaling and vs debating itself are inherently fine, however it incredibly often leads to massive toxicity when people get too heated in discussions where their favorite character(s) lose(s) or people think that character being stronger equals their media being better and it devolves from there. It's kinda similar to shipping in a fandom sense, conceptually fine but it breeds so much toxicity that it becomes a massive problem; and when people get toxic about it, it creates a counter-culture to it where outsiders view everyone who does that the same. They're like 2 sides of the same fandom coin.

[@ViApp0]

I assumed that the only time people get invested in the "vs community" is when the character they like is involved in some kind of discussion. Surely no one seriously decides to watch or read something they have no interest in only to better understand the abilities and power of certain characters.

[@mekingtiger9095]

And I'll requote what that other guy has said on the exact same comment you posted on Big N' Stuff's video that blew this entire conversation because I've never seen such an accurate analogy in my life: _"Powerscaling is just shipping for guys"_

[@Norrabal]

​@@mekingtiger9095damn... That kinda tracks.

[@kindlingking]

The problem with powerscaling is that people treat it too seriously. Self-proclaimed experts, fans, sometimes even writers - all think this super subjective essentially guesswork full of assumptions we have to agree apon before we even start is an unbreakable rule that must be followed. Like that time DB fans got mad Muten Roshi went toe to toe with mr. black hole of personality in the manga, because "that's impossible! that's inconsistent! his power level must be too small for that!".

[@mekingtiger9095]

@@kindlingking That's the issue with powerscaling: Once you dig deep enough into it, there's no going back anymore as it absolutely eliminates all suspencion of disbelief required for the plot to be minimally functional. Western culture is too obsessed with rationality when it comes to writing, so obviously it'll have a huge impact on writing and media culture by consequence and many people will be extremely uncomfortable with it.

[@belafeldbusch3397]

Also let’s not forget, a character being “stronger” then another character does not mean they are automatically the better character. You can like a character more then another and also still keep your point of view in that character

[@shady8045]

honestly its pretty pathetic if people need to be told that

[@suethafung7461]

Except anyone who isn’t like the basic cringe toxic level skin deep with power scaling does not think that

[@SSJ8Goku]

I always try to remind or have people know about Suggsverse in this case. Suggsverse has plenty of characters that can outright finger flick away both Superman and Goku, but these characters are not considered to be the better character because of that.

[@bandawin18]

Exactly, you could say "Doomguy would destroy Kratos" and people will think you like Doomguy more. Like uhh, no? Doomguy is very bland and has no personality at all, of course I like Kratos more but I'd be lying if I said he'd beat Doomguy in a 1v1

[@turkeysgotmorecloutthanyou]

You’re reminding people who don’t exist, most normal people think that:

[@Norrabal]

I feel like the "attack equals defense unless stated otherwise" only really works for systems like Ki that are a life energy that also has been shown to defend. Stuff like magic in other shows isnt usually implied to be the case, unless stated other wise.

[@FunSize4Audibles]

Generally speaking, I don't see the attack potency/durability conflation used for magic or psionic characters unless their ability is explicitly tied to their physical strength. Otherwise "glass canon" characters wouldn't exist.

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

True... Bleach's Spiritual Energy is the same as Ki because of what Aizen stated during his fight with the women shinigami captain. In a sense, the higher the natural spiritual energy a soul has. The more difficult it is for even a Bankai to damage that person. (Excluding Hax) which is why the Captain's extremely lethal Bankai didn't work on Aizen. Which also rains true in the lead up to the Soul King/Blood War Ark in the Manga/now recent Anime season.

[@SHMEGAF]

@@absolstoryoffiction6615 My own world as well follows a similar approach of the biggest attacks cause exhaustion to a character, rather than direct damage. Similar to Chakra and Ki and the like. Basically being a balancing system so my own characters can't always go all out right off the bat. Of course conversely, the higher the energy level of a character, the more durable they are. at least typically, some of my cast have innate durability that exceeds even my strongest characters at times.

[@Ax_x1om]

Also straight punches, because you kinda need to tank the punch to throw it without breaking your arm

[@FlappyCat-ef6oq]

I wasn't really convinced by the N2L argument for Ki. Ki is a nebulous concept in dragonball that isn't really explained, so I don't think the extrapolation that Picollo should be able to take moonbusting attacks works if that makes sense. We've seen him multiply his power by ~4x with the Sp beam cannon, but it's never implied that his defense goes up the same way when he does that since the power seems to be concentrated in his fingertips. The same beam that killed Raditz should realistically have killed Picollo himself. If Picollo had a defensive technique using Ki that multiplies his power by several times then yes, but this is never seen. Laser guns can often be destroyed by laser blasts from another gun as far as I understand. I get that if you can punch a moon and break it, it means your arm can withstand the force of a moonbusting attack, but it comes to energy based projectiles why should I believe it works the same way?

[@Its_a_Phaze]

“The winner is whoever the writer decides”, “Alien X is omnipotent” and “dragon ball characters are immune to all hax” are probably the bane of my existence.

[@zenkaiforms]

The last one is rarely used if they are weaker

[@Its_a_Phaze]

@@zenkaiforms It gets used in both context. Besides, I just don’t believe that their power specifically is what negates any hax abilities and people just ignore context.

[@mekingtiger9095]

Ye, I always hated the "The winner is whoever the writer decides" because it *totally* misses the point of Versus Debating. That said, I still think the "multi peepee-poopoo 69D transfartversal" crowd of mental gymnastics in general is the worse one.

[@Its_a_Phaze]

@@mekingtiger9095 It’s like “no duh!” We know the writer decides. I just don’t think I came across that one enough to be annoyed by it but I’m happy I managed to unintentionally avoid it xD

[@Its_a_Phaze]

@omniversalpowerscaler789 bring it in 🤗

[@tannertrusler674]

As pretty much a newbie of the VS community, it’s good to have this video. I had no idea when it came to Power Scaling and all that until only recently with Gojo vs Makima but it’s nice to hear from other people that the VS stuff is meant to be fun if you find it fun. And I do. So thanks, Nem. Hopefully, you won’t have to take this video down because of its contents. EDIT: Thank you to those that have liked this!

[@Neon2hu]

Makes me glad to see a video like this. My recommended has been full of people shitting on the hobby for no reason, so seeing someone who actually understands it for once is so refreshing. I hate people who take powerscaling WAY too seriously, but even they're not as annoying as people who feel the need to constantly put down the hobby just because they don't get it, in my opinion.

[@largerthanastar]

Powerscaling is untrue.

[@vaggos2003]

​​@@largerthanastarWho the hell cares? Just who the hell cares? Fiction in its entirety is untrue. Does this mean that we should not enjoy it either? Off course not. Now, if you don't have anything else to add beyond being for no reason a self-righteous asshole to people who just enjoy their hobby, then please leave us alone because your numerous comments in this comment section really point at you lacking the mental maturity to be worth having a comment section discussion with.

[@hype5456]

People had there reasons for shutting on it, that being from the toxicity of the hobby,

[@Neon2hu]

@@hype5456 Everyone community has toxic members in it, that doesn't mean you should shit on the whole hobby because a minority of annoying people like it.

[@hype5456]

@@Neon2hu while that's true it's not that simple mate

[@opadrip]

"The winner is whoever the writer wants to win" people when they get knocked out by someone bigger and stronger (it was God, the writer's fault they lost.)

[@3eve0n]

lol good one

[@nicholalehtimaki3597]

I don’t think you understand what Stan Lee meant. The writer can make a physically weaker character win by cleverness or luck. Which is why he said strength doesn’t matter for who wins

[@opadrip]

​@@nicholalehtimaki3597He didn't say any of that.

[@paleospino4956]

@@opadrip He did though. Not that it matters as your comment was likely just a joke.

[@TechnicSky]

@@opadripHe more or less implied it because it has the same feeling as trying to not have powerscalers not rag on newer fans who just want to enjoy the stories. But I will say, he probably meant to take it up to the writers respectfully and ask them "Hey, how come character A, beat character B?" and not get into debates/arguments that they cannot prove with others who just enjoy Character A, ya know?

[@fishnewt1331]

I think what people fair to realize is that when you watch or read or partake in any part of a source material, how you interpret a feat does not mean they will come to the same conclusion you did. Our “job” (using it very loosely) is to interpret the source material as accurately as we can. But it does not change that we are still doing it from our limited lense. So, unless we get the exact mindset by getting a Word of God (which can easily change for companies like Marvel and DC who change writers frequently), it is still very much an opinion.

[@Pirate_Knight27]

True. Also, "word of god" can sometimes be wrong. There is a comic panel of the Flash saving everyone in a city from dying to a nuclear weapon after the weapon detonated. He did this by carrying them one or two at a time outside of the bomb's blast radius. However, the narrator said the Flash did this by running SLOWER than the speed of light, which contradicts the feat if you Calc it.

[@ironclad-m3q]

Also keep in mind often time writer show something just because it's cool even convenience. Sonic boom is cool and an easy way to portray sense of speed when flying. Light beam commonly used because it's easy to draw, but not necessarily mean it's actually light speed. Piccolo attack instantly reach the moon because that saves several panel or frame.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

Power scalers are not accurate in the slightest

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

People care about their beliefs on the character soloing this verse or being outerversal as opposed to any actual acessment of the media

[@mekingtiger9095]

@@Pirate_Knight27 Well, technically, the narrator is right from the perspective of the DC verse. The Speed of Light in there is far, *far* faster than it is in real life. Or at least that's what I heard about, I don't know.

[@PauloJrchannel]

This video actually has a bunch of information I've always wanted to convey, but could never put it into the right words. Very cool.

[@InvinciDon]

People also gotta scale in character weaknesses as well, and what they can’t actually do. This is a major issue I see many people seem to gloss over as if their character has no weaknesses at all, it’s jarring, and killed power scaling for me long ago.

[@Nathaniel-w5n]

Exactly. Stripping characters of all of their context changes who they are fundamentally.

[@saphironkindris]

I'm going to speak specifically about Death battle here, I think that people are especially hard towards them because of their production budget and Quality. Naturally, they become 'de-facto answers' that people can point to to avoid re-writing out all the numbers themselves. This means that when there's an inaccuracy in one of their videos, it will pervasively persist any other time that character is talked about in a power-scaling sense. In this regard, I think people SHOULD be hard towards them, to make them strive to be as accurate as possible. Of course, nobody can consider EVERY variable unless they have a truly gross amount of free time, but it should be as accurate as possible. Now to the community at large, yeah, there's a lot less of a burden on you to prove your point if you're just arguing with some bloke in a forum somewhere or on Twitter.

[@AJotasticGamer]

Power scaling has and always will be subjective thats the fun nobody is truly right or wrong theres always arugements and evidence for both parties involved.

[@jayman445]

Wrongggg

[@joshuahughes3377]

​@@jayman445 How?

[@AceTheBatHound99]

Huh? How is it subjective? Power scaling is to objectively compare near-equivalent or at least comparable feats to determine what power a fictional character has over another. It's subjective in the same way history, or math is subjective. Barely so. When you are using (arguably) objective facts regarding a characters abilities & capabilities. It's not very subjective at all, it simply has subjective elements depending on the handling.

[@KEEPTALKIN8215]

​@@AceTheBatHound99it mostly the higher cosmology arguments that are subjective

[@mekingtiger9095]

Yaaaaaaay, thos thread looks like is gonna be a doozy. Imma leave a comment here to get notifications in the future and watch how far this will go.

[@darakin5172]

I thank you for explaining the "moon level" "mountain level" cause i didnt fully understand that myself, attack potency vs scale

[@demonmoonx9993]

​​@@soarel325What? So you're saying that if someone who is shown to destroy a Jupiter sized planet gets killed by someone in a single punch by someone who was never seen to fight before, that's cope and wank? How?

[@kitty-kalamariart4577]

I still very much consider myself a newbie in this fandom/community and honestly I just enjoy watching people debate. I'm not gonna crunch any numbers myself but all the other stuff is pure fun.

[@l0sts0ul89]

Don't dive too deep, it's torture.

[@WolfDB]

My issue with power scaling is that sometimes it's circular in nature. One example I like to use comes from Vs. Battles Wiki. I looked up how strong Link is and the site claimed "Universal, because he beat Majora", and when I looked up why Majora is Universal, the page said "He's comparable in power to Ganondorf", and when I looked up why Ganondorf is supposedly universal "Well, he's beaten Link canonically, so that's why"

[@Field_of_Illusion99]

That only really a Vs. Battles Wiki problem. Most good power scaliers don't even use for that reason along with other the site has.

[@hollowhenry04]

Fortunately the current profiles aren't like that anymore. Not only are they not put at universal anymore but Majora doesn't scale to Ganon at all and uses it's own feats instead. (Which happen to be above Ganon :P) Here is Majora's profile vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Majora_(The_Legend_of_Zelda) and here is Ganon's vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Ganondorf Ain't gonna link to Link since he has a seperate profile for each game.

[@gorblintown]

I assume this was a while ago because currently it looks like they have Majora capping out at star level for “creating a realm with a sun” (which I have problems with for a few reasons, and Majora not being moon level just feels wrong to me) Which is good because I don’t know how anyone can directly scale Majora to Ganondorf when they have never even been in the same game.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

It's a issue with loads of other series Well momoshiki beats kaguya cause he fought adult naruto and adult naruto beats kaguya cause he fought momoshiki

[@codishotwell150]

every time you look up a character, they say they are "Universal, now peoples are saying Mario is beyond boundless. or beyond Omnipotence base Mario what games are they playing? I play Mario and Zelda since 1985 and I never seen any of this. Mario and link can now wipe out existence with their bare hands. now I guess barney the dinosaur universal as well lol

[@nerdcorner2680]

There is such a thing as bad writing. If character A is always nice then randomly, for no reason is extremely mean with no set up or explaination then that is incorrect that the writer wrote that. This applies to powerscaling too. If I write a story about normal humans, then one of them randomly picks up a building, I can write that, but it would be bad and should be ignored or taken into consideration that this might not be accurate

[@enricodesantis1236]

I wanted soooooooo much to see someone do a video like this, especially after seeing so many videos of people that dislike power and saying that it's cringe because It makes people argue too much against each other without realaising that that's the beauty of scaling, discussing (in a non toxic way of course) and learning more about the verse you're talking about. I know that for some people there are other better ways of diving into an unknown verse than power scaling, but for me it's valid and iteresting as well, especially because thanks to scaling I have discovered many francises that I didn't even knew the existence of before

[@bhiett7448]

Death Battle was genuinely the reason why I got into and loved One Piece, and seeing it bringing up characters I love always got me excited. Whether those characters won or lost never really bothered me, cause I was just happy to see them getting some attention

[@ramboygamer3329]

SEE?! Most people forgot that this channel are made for fun, not taking seriously. Though there are some matchups that I don't like.(Not because the character that I want to win lost. Its the episodes itself.)

[@AbimayoXD]

Me and my friend Danny were debating separately on whether Vader or Obito would win and our other 2 friends in the call quoted Stan lee and specifically said “Nobody cares, The person who wins is whoever the writer decides” and I tried to explain why it mattered to me

[@KONGISKINGKONGISMYGOAT]

Which side were you are? Clearly Vader wins and solos the verse and I like óbito

[@AbimayoXD]

@KONGISKINGKONGISMYGOAT Isn't Legends the only way Vader scales that high? Legends is no longer canon. That is semantics though I don't really like either series. Definitely prefer Naruto over Star Wars but I don't particularly like either

[@Wolfiyeethegranddukecerberus17]

Hey yeah, powerscaling is a pretty good hobby for me because not only do I get to share my love for the franchises I'm a fan of with others, but I get exercise my skill with physics that I learned in high school. I like it.

[@WWE7554]

Power scaling is important to a narrative. For example, anyone could write a story where someone like Daredevil or Batman easily beats Superman or Thanos without any prep time, artifacts, or cool new forms. But the issue is, as a reader, you can't buy into that because we know these characters have skills, powers, and natural abilities that should essentially crush these guys easily. This isn't to say a weaker character can't beat a stronger one, of course, but within the rules of the universe, it has to make sense with what's established. I think people look at power scaling too negatively. Every writer, especially in the battle genre, whether western or eastern, takes this into account. It's not a matter of how powerful this attack is blah blah blah. Even though I personally love that stuff, I can understand why people don't like it. But power scaling is very important; it's to help convey to the audience how powerful a character is within their verse and also how characters may deal against them.

[@Ninja07Keaton]

Which is why I prefer how Yoshihiro Togashi did it with Yu Yu Hakusho and Hunter X Hunter. The systems in both are versatile enough to where the characters don't necessarily have to overpower their opponents to win. Or Hirohiko Akari with Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. By making the power scaling infinite with only way to win being for the characters to survive long enough to find their enemies weakness.

[@WWE7554]

@@Ninja07Keaton Yu Yu Hakusho is my favorite anime that I've had the pleasure of watching so far in my life 🐐

[@hdckighfkvhvgmk]

This is what hax are for

[@samant7101]

@@hdckighfkvhvgmk two characters could have the same hax but one is clearly more powerful than the other, hax still has levels, this is a pretty important fact that A LOT of powerscalers overlook or dont even know about. (i.e a "matter manipulator" who can only mildly levitate stuff vs a matter manipulator who can influence all space in the entire universe with extreme potency)

[@RedSunUnderParadise]

It's why Baki and Overlord are based AF. They don't bullshit us with "Muh underdog projection fantasy" where weaker guy wins, Ainz and Yujiro will handily pimphand people through power and experience. She Hulk, despite how badly it sucks, acrually did powerscaling right during the Daredevil vs Shulk fight.

[@superkid2815]

THANK you. Not only is this good to stop some people aggressively denying things related to this, but now I'm also a little more knowledgeable about it! Even though I'll probably forget most of this in a week like some kinda nimrod. I hate being forgetful

[@tsukune2910]

If krillen just came out and beat freeza in the namek saga “just cause the writer wants” even though the whole audience knows it would make no sense would make the readers annoyed and be considered bad writing. At a certain point if a creator has established rules in there verse and just decide to break the logic it’s not a good thing. In battle manga fights are a way of communicating and telling the story. AUTHORS use power scaling themselves. I think this argument comes from people who don’t read deeply or only consume media with no long overarching story or plot line.

[@redlink8734]

Even Dragon Ball proves why it's important, because the debate over whether Buuhan or Kid Buu is stronger continues to this day because if how vague it was conveyed in the story

[@largerthanastar]

Totally incomparable. Hobbyists who slobber over bullshit systems with bullshit rules are not writers who care about consistency. Stan Lee is correct. DIE mad about it.

[@tsukune2910]

@@largerthanastar your the one that sounds mad cursing lmao And no the author isn’t always right, that’s why they have editors to keep them in line lmao. Prove it’s incomparable and stop just talking

[@largerthanastar]

@@tsukune2910 Typical postmodernist garbage. The author is sovereign. Your hobby is useless. DIE mad about it.

[@Przemko27Z]

Yes and no. Writers do factor in the logic of the setting, but they also don't really measure the power levels quite specifically like the power scalers do. And they do get to change the rules, it's just that when they do they need to execute it well enough to be believable enough. Dragon Ball Z is arguably an exceptional example, since a lot of the conflict there is built specifically on rather strict power scaling. Conversely, a character like Hulk can range from "can punch pretty hard" to "stronger than physics" depending on how he's written at a given point. A lot of characters have their power level be relatively flexible and adjusted for the nee I would argue part of the issue with power scaling is when a writer writes a feat or power that's meant to be cool or serve the narrative and then gets interpreted fully literally as something a character can just normally do with all its physics implications. Also, if krillen just came out and beat freeza in the namek saga, that would still mean he beat freeza, bad writing or not.

[@Aldenfenris]

I like what you mention. Just because something seems meaningless to you, it doesn't mean it IS meaningless for everyone. Just that perhaps you don't care about it. Some people find something important and actually enjoy doing stuff you might consider worthless, or pointless. And that is 99& just subjective. I like digimon, like thinking about powers, levels, mental scenarios, I like hearing about what if battles, I like hearing the reasoning behind results, and have fun thinking about it.. Yes, it is likely less valuable use of time as opposed to... dunno, cook a meal to feed a hungry person. But that doesn't mean the thing is worthless, or meaningless.

[@pedrohlm9734]

Thank you, I always hate when someone outside of the community tries to have a moral high ground over us in order to justifice bullying us for simply having a hobby they don't like.

[@ZLunas]

*This* . This is what I want people to understand about VS. That said, I'm of the mindset that no matter what one is interested in, *someone* will make fun of them for it. As a fan of RWBY, Sonic, and other things that are easy to make fun of, I've gotten very used to taking this shit in stride, while trying my best not to make fun of others for their interests.

[@Sappysappster]

"The writer decides who wins" mfs when bad writing and inconsistency walk into the room:

[@matityaloran9157]

Stan Lee said that. And from a narrative perspective that’s entirely correct but Death Battle debates are essentially thought experiments based on the assumption of consistency which isn’t the same as what’s best from a story perspective

[@absolstoryoffiction6615]

@@matityaloran9157 For popularity stories and cross overs (that Marvel and DC have done). Correct, Stan Lee is right. For actual Verses Stuff... This isn't how Vs Battles goes. It's based on the factual Feats a character made. Which is calculated or literal from the material, from their specific continuity (usually main continuity).

[@matityaloran9157]

@@absolstoryoffiction6615 That’s more or less my point

[@PhoebeTheFairy56]

I don't even do power scaling and I still don't like when people say this because if someone's bringing up a hypothetical scenario, that answer's not going to be helpful if the characters have not canonically fought before. And the lack of a canonical answer is often the reason someone would even bring it up

[@powerscalingsucks]

Shut up, braindead!

[@Wado379]

I belive the stan lee statement shouldn't be a way of discouraging vs debating, but a way of thinking of a matchup a different way. When i talk about this stuff with a friend of mine, besides the rough estimations for the characters' power whe have, we also like to discuss how would a story between these two would go. Take for example, a debate on who would emerge victorious (not necesarily in a fight) between Arsene Lupin and Sherlock Holmes? Sure, both of them have impressive feats of dexterity and martial prowess across all the media they have appeared, as well as intelectual capabilities, but how would a story between the two go? Well, the answer may be found in the actual novel ''Arsene Lupin vs Herlock Sholmes'' (No, i didn't write that wrong). A novel in which famous greatest detective and famous phantom thief face off eachother. (I havent read the novel, but i love the fact that it exists) Lets make up a wild scenario. ///// Yujiro hanma wanders around and finds out a giant tower. What for a regular fighter would be a horrific pressence coming from that tower becomes interesting to the ogre, so he decides to walk in. Ignoring the receptionist, everyone working there and walking through every single security meassure inside the building, Yujiro eventually finds the source of that ominous aura. At the opposite end of a hallway, an odd figure can be seen laying down. Pink hair and dressed like a clown, this individual, wearing a frightening smile, eyes wide open, walks towards the ogre, both sharing what everyone witnessing the scene could only describe as two hungry beasts, euphoric at the sight of the greatest meal they'll have so far. As both Men stare at eachother, with twisted joy and curiosity reflected on both of their faces, The clown is the first one to break the silence. ''I can sense you are aching for a fight, am i mistaken?'' Yujiro simply Smirks. ''Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Hisoka, and you have NO idea how much i'd LOVE to have a go right now... But this place follows a specific set of rules. So, if its not too much of a bother...'' The ogre, against anyones guess, complies with Hisoka's request. He walks towards the previously ignored receptionist, and asks to be registered in the tower. With the most terrifying smile, Yujiro turns back at Hisoka. ''You are making a huge compromise here, Kid. I hope you dont end up dissapointing'' Says the ogre. Hisoka makes a reverence, and calmly says ''Oh my good sir. I assure you i will fullfill all your expectations''. Barely containing his laugh, Yujiro simply waves him goodbye as he walks away. ''Toodaloo'' Says Hisoka.///// For those who didn't read all that, its basically a made up scenario for a fight between Hisoka From Hunter X hunter and Yujiro from Baki. I didn't pit them fighting because that's not the intention of this ''excersise''. Rather, i pictured a scenario in which these two characters would encounter and a fight would be plausible. Who wins this bout can be dictated by whoever ''objectively'' wins via stats or special abilities. But wethere it is a stomp or it is a close match VsDebate-wise, we can write a good story/fight basing ourselves on the info we have referring to Vs. However, Wether one or the other wins, We cant forget WHO these characters are. I firmly believe it is possible to portray a stomp in favor of a character who is considered weak in its origin series, against another one who is considered to be the strongest in its own series too, while still keeping the fact that one is considered weaker in his own narrative, and viceversa. The reason i love death battle, specially in these last three seasons, is the fact that they have been prioritizing character writing and escentially making what i consider an amazing fanfiction. And a lot may consider the veredicts are wrong, and thats fine, however, i see too many people only focusing on the veredict, and not the story that was told, as simple as it may be.

[@opadrip]

I like the raw aspect of a crossover in general, even if it's within the confines of a Vs Debate. Unfortunately people who use the Stan Lee statement parade it around like he just singlehandedly destroyed Death Battle.

[@justcallmekai1554]

Yeah this is a much better approach imo. It doesn't do the "STAN OWNED DESTROYED LIB" thing about powerscaling while at the same time criticizes the way some engage with the concept (that is going to exist regardless if the author wanted it or not due to the nature of these types of stories) differently. Still does the scaling part without just viewing the combatants as pure states, creates an interesting interaction even outside of powerscaling, and delves more into deeper character traits and arcs. By far the best "defense" and critique in the comment section.

[@Superluigi881]

An example of this imo would be the cartoon fight club rematch between Sans and Papyrus vs the Mario Bros. This isn't a match up I'd care for normally and even with the handicap against them it's still a massive stomp in favour of Mario and Luigi. But the animation itself is what made it fun. The drama of Sans knowing they've lost before and him and Papyrus doing everything they could to win and protect each other against what they know is near impossible odds made it entertaining. And the teamwork from both sides is clearly on display also. Animationrewind's videos are pretty hit or miss but this one was good and an example of a death battle styled fight driven by the narrative.

[@blackestyang7528]

Goku has canonically died. Garfield hasn't even bled

[@NonAryanDuck]

I dont think you understand how goated this video is

[@josephkeen7224]

The personal issues I have with power scaling is these. 1. The feats of a lot of characters (like Goku or Superman) are so huge that I’m not sure how you can even compare them (granted, I may be showing that I suck at math). 2. I personally find the context behind a fight more interesting as you acknowledge, because that kind of thing can heavily affect a fight in my opinion, and because I’m someone who cares about character interactions a lot (it’s half the reason I watch death battle). The DBs most recent Scooby VS Courage is a perfect example of this. As for the context part. Things like the environment can easily have an effect on fights as well. To be clear, I’m not trying to say VS debating is pointless, I’m just saying that’s why I personally don’t care for power scaling, and would love to hear counter arguments.

[@jasonchiu272]

Well I know a lot about power scaling. There's the watt, joule, ampere, coulomb, ohm, calorie...

[@khiemtran9390]

Honestly, though my job I have amongst the VS debating wikis out there about judging how someone crunch their numbers, I'm not always thinking about numbers all the time when reacting to different pieces of media. Like, I watched Puss in Boots: The Last Wish not because of how Puss would scale to the Sleeping Giant of Del Mar or how much Death scales to the rest of the world Shrek takes in, but it's becuase of how good the story was to so many. So, it isn't like my mind is in Analysis Mode for numbers all the time. Everyone has their reasons for enjoying something as it is, but it isn't always going to be in the Sphere of Influence of Power Scaling.

[@azurewraith2585]

the problem I’ve always had with powerscaling is that people often ignore the ‘power’ in favor of the ‘scaling’. The most interesting part of vs battles is the unique interactions and abilities. And while being stronger or faster in important, if your conclusion nearly always comes down to “this guy has the bigger number”….man that’s just boring.

[@rodridante]

That's kinda why sites like VSBW exist. Since they have their stats and all of their powers already listed, then debates are made based on that instead of arguing about popular matchups. Of course, agreeing with their interpretations is another topic.

[@pisaschitt787]

Death battle and its consequences

[@empireyouth5791]

Well maybe but I can also be fun figuring out and determining those numbers

[@azurewraith2585]

I'm not even saying that doing calculations is bad, just that it's disappointing when its the only part of the debate. It's like having icing without a cake underneath @@empireyouth5791

[@XBlueXFire]

I mean, assuming they're arguing in good faith I'd imagine the powers just dont wind up mattering. Like if we take harry potter at face value, he has many hax spells ranging from illusions, polymorphing, and outright instant death. That said, the flash is just going to bitch slap him. The spells may as well not exist.

[@Marisa_arts]

The funny thing is that I do both. The Story comes first but I want to have consistency with the power scale and logic. But, this is important, I forget sometimes about it and just go with the scene and feel of what I am trying to write to make it both intense and impactful while having fun. Stan Lee's statement of "I don't care about the Power Scale, of who wins or how powerful they are. If I want Spider to win against the Hulk, I want Spiderman to win that day, on another day, I may want the Hulk to win." should be taken as a means of being I kind of want to tell this fun story while keeping the power of each in mind, who would win might be based on what the narrative leads for the actual winner, not just the fact that "This guy has a bigger number, there for he wins." talk that most people get into, when talking with friends and looking at the stats and abilities of each character armor or whatever it is, it is kinda disappointing at times, but then ask, okay, but about if it was a narrative tale, "Who do you see winning in that sense?" so we talk about that, which then goes into a fun thing about how it would go and how far! Since the story part is always fun to have for it than just Power Scale Winner is. While I care and look into it, I have seen a lot of people using the VSWiki and just Power Scale and not take into account a lot of the talks for narrative that goes with it, to me, it gets tiring to hear that or see it more frequently than not as both a creator and a Scaler, more so the former now a days. I have create a setting where you have a single rule that is placed and plan to show the effects of what happens when you ignore or don't bother with using or training that rule. It is called, for those who want to use it as a writer of any kind, Narrative Control and With Strain, or what the VS Community like to call "Gag" or "Atomic/Matter/Realty Control/Manipulation" all characters have this ability and is shown to not cause much harm or negative effects around them, but it is also a form of gaining great or grater power as you need to direct that force and power somewhere else as you can not simply get rid of it, which this secondary effect is that it is only going to unleash the full force on the intended target and anything else would take a smaller or splash back of the power shown as it goes into the greater universe at large. Think of DB(Z/GT/S/D) and how the character who are clearly beyond Moon Power and don't destroy anything that isn't the intended target with a clear Chunking of the World they stand on. This is the main justification of the powers, and most know about this and train it up for better control, so those with this type (look at the quoted area in the paragraph) use on a daily and yes doing a Destroy the World! move is not seen as anything special or good, while they can control the powers to not kill everyone when fighting, they still need air, food, water and means of living, so Word Destruction moves are a big sin on the grand scale. If I wanted to see a fight with no narrative and see a one sided ass whooping, I'll look it up online, is it fun, yes, but also at the same time I would like to see the story for it if it had one, this is not saying I don't enjoy a good fight or one sided beat down, no I do, does it mean I enjoy the story for it and want all fights to have that, no. What I'm saying is this, I am human and I am hypocritical to this as well. That doesn't mean that I am 100% wrong and should thus be dismissed, no, it just mean I have a bit of a complex and conflicting thing for this as I both watch and create these things. I think all writers or creators have this issue where they love and enjoy a good mindless fight or a passionate and intense narrative fight more so than those who just watch the show. Yes this includes nuance for the story that people can ignore lol. (I had that happen a lot for it since it is you know, not really seen as important in the talks) I would love to just write the Cross Over Fight and have be fun and tell a fun story with the characters I made, but that *doesn't* mean I have thought about the FULL IMPLICATION OF THE POWERSCALE FOR THEM AND HOW IT IS GOING TO AFFECT THE NORMAL STORY, no, it was a fun thing I did because I wanted to do it. No writer does, we just want to tell a fun tale more often than not, if we just stuck with what VS Debaters want and just had VSWiki the Comic, it would be harder to just write for and, personally, find it boring to even read and watch as it just becomes a slough to get through and even the writing for it. if you are wondering. Yes I use a Multi-tier system for the writing world and cosmology, yes it is big that it hurts to think about, yes, when I state it to be infinite, it is not a Hyperbole, it is the full definition of Infinite. Yes, most gods do not or can not grasp the full size of a single universe, let alone the full Infinite Milti-Outerversal of Creation that is the Cosmology of the setting, if i put it down in the chat, and you read it.... well if Nemesisbloodryche ask, I will put it in the reply or in his pin lol No, I ignore this 99.9999999% of the time as it is not important for the stories told in the setting. Those who knows me and how I write for the entire thing knows why it is like this and why I don't care to delve into much other than explaining things. Yes, I use a VSWiki term to say how big it is (Outerversal is just a stupid thing when you know the term and think about how many characters do this that aren't Gag Characters). Again, if he/they/she/potato soup/purple hair ask, I will explain it and why.

[@azureblizzard721]

jc the last thing I did before watching this was listen to Nye vs Newton I almost had a heart attack

[@diamondsanchez224]

My issue is that many versus debaters seem to have this false idea that whoever wins is set and stone if it's been said on Death Battle or just because they debated it for an hour on a wiki or subreddit. The thing is, how we interpret characters, their feats, and how their abilities interact with other characters, unless the creators specifically come out and say it, is entirely subjective. This community gets so vitriolic that it honestly drives me away. The amount clowns who came out of the woodworks to say Jak and Daxter lose to Ratchet & Clank because Death Battle said so and there can be no other arguments made, was insane (And that's just one example). I know not every power scaler is like this, and this is part of that vocal minority you mentioned in the video, but I can understand where the grievances would come from for some people.

[@mekingtiger9095]

Frankly, though? With how much powerscaling seems to have been growing and coming into the mainstream these last months? I don't think it's gonna be "just a tiny minority" soon enough.....

[@suethafung7461]

Probably the loudest minority

[@djb9267]

That's just wrong. Just because a Match, like obito vs vader, has been talked about for a long time, doesn't mean it's Set in stone. Just like death battle is no authority on anything, a Match up between two fictional characters can be discussed for multiple years. Just look at Luke vs anakin, Sidious vs yoda, etc. And then there are also matches, where the Winner is so obvious, that I am honestly confused how the Match can be a point of conversation, for so long. Take for example, rotj sidious vs yoda, rots yoda vs revan, vader vs malgus, dooku vs vader. The Winner of These vattles are very obvious, but people still have fun talking about them.

[@diamondsanchez224]

@@djb9267 I know, but some people, mainly that loud, awful minority of power scalers and hardcore Death Battle fans, seem to think this way, like just because DB says it they're totally correct.

[@djb9267]

@@diamondsanchez224 the amount of downplay, given to vader and yoda, in their respective episodes, prove that death battle is not an authority.

[@vereornox701]

It’s true that the writer determines who wins; however, if John Average, who is completely average in all stats and has no superhuman abilities, fought a yellow sun charged Superman or enraged Hulk and knocks him out in one punch, with no explanation whatsoever, people would rightfully call BS. By a similar token, when someone with a science or math background points out that a writer or scaler fundamentally doesn’t understand how a concept works, like transfinite numbers, dimensions, or reference frames, they’re right to call BS

[@demo0831]

Personally though powerscaling has become a way to laugh off weak but well written characters.

[@vereornox701]

@@soarel325 That wasn’t my point. I didn’t say that dimensions have to follow what mathematics dictates. The issue is that certain writers and power scalers pull from mathematics, science, and whatnot when illustrating certain ideas and concepts, such as dimensions. I don’t expect writers to fully understand these concepts, and I can suspend disbelief in those cases, to an extent. Its one thing for Superman to fly, but it’s another thing to say that a character is above Hilbert Space because that’s not a physical space. It doesn’t mean anything to be “above” it. And this isn’t a fictional representation either; they believe that’s how it works and will say, “science says so”. In those cases, it’s fair to call them out. It’s also not uncommon for writers to consult experts when illustrating certain ideas. Power scalers (not all) often don’t understand these concepts and try to support their arguments using real world mathematics or physics. I’m sure you’ve heard or read someone saying that “such-and-such is a 7D feat while so-and-so is easily 8D” despite the two worlds having vastly different cosmology, and where “dimension” means something entirely different in each. Finally, yes, “normal” humans in fiction are usually stronger, faster, and more durable than our greatest athletes. Batman is considered at the peak of what humans can reach, but he’d be a god if he existed in reality. My point with Joe Average was in support of power scalers arguing against people saying that it’s pointless because the writer dictates the winner. Joe Average was meant to be average by real world standards, which would make him likely even weaker in a fictional setting

[@mekingtiger9095]

Yeah, I fully agree with you. That being said, the realization and awareness of that has made me absolutely *DESPISE* comics because if the average non-Gotham resident can be "7291820D layers of transinfinity into yomammaversal" and somehow have most of the stories take place specifically in a single planet at most, then coherence has been absolutely vaporized out of existence and non-existence and just "holding bacc" simply is *NOT* an excuse anymore. That is also the reason I had horrible first impressions of powerscalers because the lenghts they went to rationalize all these inconcistencies and then have the gal to claim that "I just did not read the comics" or "do not understand the absolute smart and complex plot-driven and totally perfectly crafted consistent masterpiece" that is Superman's scaling or *_THE MODAFUCKING FLASH!!!_* Now I cannot ever touch anything DC related without absolutely hating its characters for their blatant incompetency and now believe that the Justice League and their villains must be just some really good trolls adept in the art of pretending to have any sort of physical struggle. So yeah, I feel extremely bitter because of it. At least Dragon Ball Z plays its inconcistencies as a joke. Comics want to be treated seriously and yet do not take themselves seriously enough to earn this respect. By the way, that one comic where Flash fights a Wonder Woman from another timeline while holding back but clearly showing obvious amounts of boredom in the process? That has got to be the only comic I've come to respect so far because at least it is very self-aware. Too bad it is an exception.

[@Lh0000]

I’m the flashes (somewhat) defense… he wouldn’t vaporize the planet because the speed force apparently makes him able to bypass physics… because… REASONS…

[@mekingtiger9095]

@@Lh0000 Space Magic, lol.

[@MatthewDiLeva]

And this is exactly why I’m proud I’m not a part of the VS Community. I feel bad for all those who get treated like shit for the wrong assumptions.

[@sargentflippy9941]

As someone who is still in the vs community, your lucky, you see this community still has a bad taste in my mouth, but with one particular fandom when it came to vs debating stuff (cough cough sonic fandom) i got harassed for nearly a year, so I suggest you just…keep your distance with certain fandoms when it comes to vs debating

[@mekingtiger9095]

Gotta feel bad for the actual mature power scalers being sandwiched between powerscaling haters who misjudge and bash over the entire community and actual idiotic powerscalers who create whole channels and videos on KZbin spreading misinformation about fictional characters around that give the haters their entire reason to exist to begin with.

[@aarondx3764]

I'd love more general powerscaling videos like this I really enjoy them. Shit like this is why i'm subbed, probably my favourite video by far.

[@slp1857]

My most wanted match-up (previous to Gojo being the opponent but I really loved the episode nonetheless) was Kenjaku vs Makima. It wasn't because I wanted to just see who's stronger, faster etc. but because of the amount of connections between them, how their stories mirror and contrast against each other, Kenjaku a mastermind chaotic being and Makima being a manipulative one obsessed with her own order. The fight potential of the whole armies they have at their command, their varying abilities and how their power systems bounce off each other because of it. I don't really care about the winner but their abilities dictate the fight would end in the most ironic way possible for either in that they'd be the ones being controlled for a change. Makima is one of my favorite villains of all time, and both Jujutsu Kaisen and Chainsaw Man have had significant impact on my own life, and I'd love to see this fight and characters... But power scaling is cringe apparently so that doesn't matter actually.

[@LevelUpLeo]

Yeah, I made one of those "My ideal seasons" meme posts and I think ONE I was interested in see how the numbers line up (Chun-Li vs Chi-chi), but with all of them- including that one- it has more to do with character similarities and such. As a matter of fact I've been told that some of them might be stomps but... I don't really care, I still like to see how it would all come out in the end and how a fight between them could look.

[@altreon3608]

"doesn't matter, kirby solos both lmao" is when it gets annoying to me

[@KONGISKINGKONGISMYGOAT]

Fax

[@CottonArsonist]

I powerscale just for a hobby. Often times I may use it as an excuse to rewatch or re-experience a piece of media I used to love, upon scaling the characters, their stats could impress me and give me a new impression of the character - now, this is just my enjoyment out of it because I enjoy writing big numbers and slapping them onto absolutely non-threatening characters, but everyone can find some enjoyment in it. Powerscaling got me into Fate, Danganronpa, DBZ, OPM and quite a lot more because they have infamous characters or ones I've had to study for MUs. If I conclude in a mu that character x beats y, I don't suddenly hate y, i still like them and everything in their series, it's just a way to use my knowledge on both to find connections and almost share some cool knowledge on characters whoever I'm debating with may not know

[@BigNoseEntmt]

This video is (relatively) important. Thank you for making it Nem!

[@OmniDan26]

Cringe

[@Sketchpunk]

ive come to resent power scaling for a lot of reasons. but I can appreciate that it's a hobby, analyzing the media is fun in so many ways. I think what the problem is when someone is trying to enjoy a narrative or certain characters only to have someone come at you just because "x is a fraud" or "y is a bad/good character because he's weak/strong" completely ignoring how good their writing is. it's just a difference in what you care about in a piece of media clashing and I feel that's why these two camps fight so much

[@xatornovasreviews7818]

I just want to say that getting into powerscaling made me appreciate one of my favorite series (Megami Tensei) even more because I had to dive deep into the lore to have a better understanding of the stories and themes, as well as its inspirations. So yeah, it's given me a new appreciation that is not just limited to "who is stronger" or "big numbers"

[@jalapenoofjustice4682]

I have some gripes with the way Death Battle makes a lot of wild assumptions, like how anything that looks like a laser is assumed to be moving at light speed and the realistic part of any fictional universe is assumed to be the size of the real-world observable universe. characters are also always scaled to their most impressive feat without considering the limitations they are shown to have elsewhere in the story. If Jolyne Cujoh actually had the level of power shown in her meteor punching feat, she could have just punched her way through the prison walls

[@l0sts0ul89]

Yeah but that really wouldn't fix the fact she's still a convict and would get hunted down the by police.

[@mekingtiger9095]

This is the main issue I have with powerscaling. Most of the time characters are wanked or scaled in such a way that it creates an extreme level of narrative dissonance between the power interpretation and the actual writing. The more assumptions you make about the scaling and the more you try to rationalize their feats, specially their physical ones, the more and more plot holes upon plot holes are opened until the entire story and setting are teared down until there's nothing left to buy into the stakes of any verse and nothing else can work from a storytelling or narrative perspective. It's trying to turn EVERY work of fiction conceived into the Hardest Sci-Fi that they can turn them into.

[@suethafung7461]

This can all be fixed by saying that the character can control their power perfectly

[@mekingtiger9095]

​@@suethafung7461 Yeaaaah, no. I've tried it once, but the more I did the more nonsensical the plot became. "Holding bacc" as an excuse only works so far until it circles back and you start getting more questions than answers once again.

[@mystic6121]

They're narrative reasons as to why. that was also at that was closer to the later parts of the series and we see her break out of her cell by bending the bars

[@gos358]

Some people really undermine video game characters by going specifically by lore, though that would be correct, there is also another half to it. LITERALLY the player's skill and everything, I mean look at games with a leveling system, item system, etc.; that makes just about every other overpowered character look like actual ants when compared to them, considering how strong you can be in the video games.

[@uboa8060]

On the topic of videogame characters being powerscaled, I once saw someone say that Solid Snake was city block level and could move at light speeds... If that isn't silly I don't know what is.

[@_-___________]

The "whoever the author wants to win" isn't just for plot and stuff. The author can literally make their characters stronger. For instance. I have an imaginary character in my head that is literally not omnipotent, but he can defeat omnipotent characters. How? It's just how it is. His feats include: Destroying all of fiction just by existing, lifting a pencil in real life, creating the real life universe, preceding all logic (fictional or not), not existing while also existing, being capable of holding something while also not holding something, being above your pathetic legs, destroying the real universe and then recreating it (and your memories of it) 5 minutes ago, and inventing all of real life fiction and then impressing all of fiction onto it's "authors".

[@alderayie9187]

The problem with this argument is that an author had no right to force other characters not made by him to lose to his character just because he wants his character to be unbeatable,there needs to be a good reason or condition on how one character can beat others,,this is why fictional battle judge winning characters based on power scaling,that scaling is the requirement,

[@_-___________]

@@alderayie9187 No. Because what you're saying doesn't really apply. What his character is "defeating" aren't "other people's characters". What his character is defeating is his interpretation of their character. In fact, all fictional battles are people pitting their own fictional characters against each other. Power scaling is applying real world physics and speculation to fiction. Who is to say that it's possible to go faster than light in certain universes? Why does it have to be that it's even possible to destroy universes?

[@_-___________]

@@alderayie9187 Also fictional battles between people like an argument aren't deciding who has the strongest character. It's a battle of charisma of who can argue better.

[@_-___________]

@@glurpious73 Ah but that is where your entire position falls apart. There is no such thing as an omnipotent fictional character. If they were truly omnipotent, they wouldn't be fictional. There is truly no true Scotsman. Also, it wouldn't be omnipotent "beings". It would be The omnipotent being. There is logically only one omnipotent being. Not even the author is omnipotent. They don't even have complete control over their own imagination, let alone all of existence. What I was saying was the author is free to contradict their own internal logic. The author can say that an attack from soft and wet transcends logic. Even if it doesn't actually transcend logic, the author can say it does. The readers naturally suspend their disbelief and pretend like logic was transcended. Just like omnipotent characters. They aren't actually omnipotent, but the readers pretend like they understand what it means to be omnipotent and then pretend like the characters are omnipotent.

[@neckbeardneet]

23:05 Nem scaling the viewer lowkey sounding like an inspirational speech

[@artofsupidity]

Wow I'm early for once, and although VS debating isn't a hobby of mine, but I love watching DB, and your analysis, reaction, and prediction video, and other VS debaters video

[@RealDeOreo]

"The winner is whoever the writer wants to win" people when they get into a street fight (the 'writer decided that they should get knocked out)

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

No the dude beating me decided It's real life not fiction There is no writer lol

[@RealMonzer]

⁠@@nagatouzumaki4047 So you agree that if we’re trying to look at how strong a character would scientifically be, the author’s opinion doesn’t matter. The central conceit of these discussions is based on acting as if fictional feats can be measured with real logic and science. Good.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

well no street fights are real they actually happen it's not informed by what im to believe or headcanon like how versus debating tends to wotk

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

ofc you can measure stuff with math but most people go kratos wins cause he's a god or puss in boots solos cause he's literally death it tends to be less about math and more about your beliefs on whatever

[@RealMonzer]

⁠@@nagatouzumaki4047 Again, the central conceit is “what if this actually happened”. If you can understand the idea of a stronger, more skilled person winning a fight irl, then you can understand the type of logic used in these sorts of discussions. It’s not based on headcanon as the arguments need to be based on what actually happened in the story in order to be convincing. The two examples you gave would be considered fallacious arguments.

[@TheHearthGuy]

I've been meandering in the center of this whole argument for and against power scaling for pretty much my entire time in and around the community and this is what I've learned: Versus Debates are glorified fanfiction. Which, just to be clear, isn't a bad thing. Ask anyone who reads or writes fanfiction and they'll tell you that some of them are better than actual books. My point in calling it that is because I have been turned off by the most vitriolic and hyper biased parts of the vs. community a number of times. I have joined and left the community before all because I didn't like how people in it treated the whole affair, but I recently came back and started to enjoy it so much more, in no small part thanks to Nemesis, Biff, and a few other Vs. creators. But I call is glorified fanfiction because that is *not* how so many others in the community have treated it, they treat it like its the most serious and life defining thing, which has fueled a love-hate relationship with versus debates that I wish was just love. I still have my hang ups about power scaling, I have a vehement distaste for chain scaling because it takes circumstantial evidence to a whole new level, and an overuse of inconsistent feats is what made made me leave the community the first time. But I like a good versus debate because the idea of the themes and abilities of characters born out of entirely separate and distinct worlds and stories with wholly different rules bouncing off each other in both combat and interaction is fascinating. I don't blame people for disliking versus debates, for a long time I was right there next to them because of the frustrating anger of the people who try to shove "But can he beat Goku" down your throat unironically. But I've come to love and enjoy it again because one day, out of random, I saw Death Battle was covering Fire Emblem, one of my favorite franchises, and after I had been ignoring Death Battle and versus debates for a while for the aforementioned reasons, I decided to give it a shot and it blew me away. I was quickly bombarded with recommendations for Biff and Nemesis and their approach to the series encouraged me to try it out again. After binging the entire series, I'm back on board, even if I still have my problems with certain parts of "art of power scaling" as it were. As a final note: For all I said against the power scaling/versus community, I really dislike the idea of "The winner is whoever the writer decides." As a writer myself, that is the laziest way to possible approach a story. I want a world I interact with whether through tv, books, video games etc. to feel real. And one way to do so is to establish a flow of consistency and rules. (Part of why I dislike the use of inconsistent feats actually) If your readers/watchers know that the stakes of whatever media they're interacting with is determined entirely by "whatever the writer wants" and not preset rules the writer themselves established then what reason do they have to feel the stakes are genuine? Creating rules for your story and then creating scenarios for who can and can't win a fight within those preset rules makes your world feel real and tangible. And its why I love versus debates, because it takes two characters following two sets of rules and attempts to equalize them in a way that lets you imagine what a fight between them would look like. Keep up the good work, Nem, its always appreciated.

[@kindlingking]

If you're an author yourself, you should know "author decides who wins" isn't limited to randomly giving a win on a whim. Even if you treat your work as a simulation of a fictional world, it's still you, the author, who's maintaining it, with your thoughts and biases. Not to mention, every story has to have a point - a theme, an idea, a driving force, a message at least (not that kind of message). Ultimately everything is done for the sake of some kind of goal, be it short term (like giving a satisfying conclusion to an arc) or long term (like giving the story an overarching theme). Powerscalers hate "author decides" so much because it undermines the very basis of their system, it robs them of even a slightest hint of objectivity, which often what they get heavily invested into - the idea of their conclusions being right and scientific. But ultimately, as you said, it's just fanfiction. And personally I like it this way, when you can engage in collaborative work with other people to come up with interesting scenarios and interactions, flavour, dialogue exchange, etc.

[@TheHearthGuy]

@@kindlingking That's a fair take. Its just for me, the statement "the author decides" always felt a bit reductive to the artform of writing. Yes, technically the author does decide, but you never want your audience to *realize* that when engaging with your work. The best fiction is the kind that makes you forget, even for a nanosecond, that it *is* fiction. Honestly, that's my favorite part about versus debates too, the potential interactions between characters and their abilities is just so much fun. Which I feel too many people on both sides forget, that its all about fun.

[@justcallmekai1554]

​@@kindlingkingMeh somewhat disagree on the first part. Sure yes the writer HAS THE ABILITY to do what they want but the question is SHOULD THEY under a given parameter. This mentality can easily bleed into creating ass stories or inconsistencies in narrative, character arcs, or even when it comes to scaling characters (in certain context being very action oriented). It's also a non-statment and redundant poised as some ultimate defeater that I guarantee they wouldn't like in whatever stories they like. Its like the "Did you know this isn't real so why do you care?" Um because I want to??? So what?? Stories aren't just for the author, it's also for an audience so you to keep stuff like that in mind to how ppl will see it. Instead have ppl approach it differently by making a full fledged story out of it instead of just stat checks since let's be real it's gonna happen anyway as the "Who would win" or "How would they win" is a question as old as humanity.

[@kindlingking]

@@justcallmekai1554 well, yeah, fiction as a collaborative endeavour, but ultimately an author still has the final word. Yes, "I'm author, I do what I want" can be detrimental to your work, but it doesn't have to. It whether the next plot twist is a nonsensical asspull or a brilliant revelation ultimately comes down to execution. You're telling the story and everything in that story should be for that story. The best part about fiction is that you can do pretty much anything ans it COULD turn out great. Powerscaling (as in pseudoscientific stat check) is bad because it tries to apply itself to every single story, but there are stories that pretty much do their own powerscaling with science and stuff. Take HxH for example, did we really need mathematical formulas for how aura works? I dunno, but we go them and it's pretty cool. Or take any hard sci-fi story or more grounded battle mangas or some real mecha shows. Powerscaling doesn't have to suck, people are just too serious about it. I want to know the force of Saitama's serious punch not because "omg is that enough to knock out Goku?!", but because it's funny to imagine the comparison with more realistic phenomena and appreciate the absurdity.

[@mekingtiger9095]

So in other words, power scaling is just one huge collaborative attempt at creating the ultimate epic crossover of all times without actually admitting to it? That makes sense...

[@weaponmasterglave2923]

I don’t think I ever wanted Boros vs Deoxys until I saw that animation and thought about it. I never even considered that one of my favorite legendary Pokémon could be a decent matchup for one of the cooler villains in OPM thanks Nem for a new matchup for me to really like

[@TheNightTyrant]

As a powe scaler myself, Finally someone who has read debating fallacies and physicis explaining to casual and main stream audience about these misconception was a beautiful thing ❤

[@WHAbuffet]

But what if i just want to see 2 fictional people beat the shit out of eachother?

[@reidj2226]

I always told people that don't understand why scaling is important is that if you agree that Yamcha or Krillin or whatever other human character they agree that they're constantly clowned upon in their home series by much more stronger characters CAN'T be beaten by any of us (because he's operating in a universe where people can blow them up while we don't) then you have more than enough understand what scaling is. Character A maybe barely anyone in his series while character B is considered it's god but if you look at what "scales" they're put on then you'll notice Character A despite being weak in his series, has feats weighing heavier than what character's b series did, you just apply same logic as previously with us and Yamcha.

[@canned3880]

I agree with most things here, but using piccolo as an example was kinda weird. Ki blasts don't really have recoil. And can carry concusive force while not moving. Using a character who does a physical attack would be better

[@marcierex4547]

Yea they scale to their ki

[@thomasthecoolkid7228]

​@@marcierex4547 Yes, but not just with their base strength or durability. They scale to their ki because they strengthen their bodies _with_ said ki.

[@blurb9319]

@@thomasthecoolkid7228 It still supports the underlying idea that the character can take the same output of energy they produce.

[@valydendor4472]

Don't Roshi and Goku fly with the Kamehameha?

[@marcierex4547]

@@valydendor4472 sometimes

[@Metalseadraking]

I actually think I have come full circle with powerscaling lol When I was younger I was super obsessed with it Later I hated it because I kinda just grew out of it and frankly speaking I'm personally not a big fan of most character portrayals in DB However now I'm okay with it again. I'm not SUPER into it anymore and quickly grow bored when I read calculations of someone trying to prove me "X beats Y" I think its just the attack potency thing that irks me the most. I weight in skillsets more than anything tbh Of course attack potency and whatnot is very important, but I'm just not the biggest fan of seeing DB put up 100000000000000 times of tnt on the screen It's still neat to find out who would win, but I think I am personally just fed up with the edath part in death battle, because a lo of character gets lost or interactions have wasted potential (again, totally my personal problem and I acknowledge that) I agree that debating wether Goku or Saitama would win in a Rap contest is meaningless, but it does create neat intereactions or rethinking of the source material and I do understand that a lot of fun comes from that. (yeah okay maybe not a rap battle in this case) I disagree that argueing wether a certain character would win on a authors bias doesnt make much of a debate however. You can derive a lot of how an author views a character by the way they write them. Argueing on a purely writing standpoint there is a lot more room to debate as there are no numerical values or definitive limits set by feats, as long as one party doesnt know the author personally lol: It's just a lot more wobbly and harder to put into words than actual feat comparison Something being "meaningless" or "pointless" is a dumb argument as breaking stuff down to its core almost everything we do is meaningless. Watching youtube videos writing comments etc. I agree here that that argument is extremely dumb. I also think the point Stan wanted to make is that he is tired of getting those versus questions. (warning personal interpretation) All he probably wanted was interacting with his fans and not being asked wether Spiderman is Cityblock level for the 500th time. I didnt felt like Stan Lee was demeaning to powerscalers as a whole but just those who always ask him those versus questions As you said, most creators dont have powerscaling in mind (maybe like a vague idea where everyone belongs in the general power tierlist) and are focusing on character and story first. In the end those who are into powerscaling should enjoy their hobby and there is nothing wrong with doing calculations for fun, thinking about interesting or cool match ups or even just who someone likes more. It's not something to be shamed on and definetly shows a great understanding of the srouce material someone has as well as how they interpret certain things onto how it would affect battle capabilities. I just think not everyone does think of powerscaling as for fun. And as much as you have seen some bs people spout against powerscaling there have been people who take it way to serious and obnoxious, which just continues to toxic back and forth. And I'll be honest here, people who hate powerscalers aren't anything special. Almost any type of Internet culture has some kind of "counter culture" Just look how toxic people talk about shipping sometimes, which in theory should have much less conflict creating potential as opposed to versus debates (2 characters liking each other as opposed to beating each other up) Anyway. I enjoyed the video.

[@vaggos2003]

The part that I definitely agree the most is the part about how the context behind Stan's quote is different than the one anti-power scalers use. Stan's quote was about people annoying him because they cared more about powerscaling stuff in regards to the world of Marvel rather than the world of Marvel that Stan Lee created. Stan simply wasn't interested in powerscaling and wanted to, for a lack of a better term, shut up people asking him specifically about it. He never said or implied anything about powerscaling in general.

[@PhoebeTheFairy56]

The problem I have with powerscaling is that the people I see doing it just reduce everything to the stats. But it seems like that’s not how everyone does it, from what you've said in the video

[@fordderek2429]

Stan Lee could not go more then 3 issues with out contradicting his own story. His opinion is not final.

[@Spritefightman]

Thanks for explaining this 🙏

[@yayson6007]

Great vid. One point I think is worth mentioning as well is the idea of “well, the debate’s pointless because the winner will always be whichever character is the debater’s favourite”, which… also isn’t true, and is another stupid blanket statement? Not the best example, but just look at Goku vs. Superman. Ben Singer has gone on record saying that he hates Superman, yet he has written two episodes of Death Battle where Superman wins for being (in the episode’s words, not mine) INFINITELY stronger than Goku. There are characters I like more than Goku and Superman, but would never dream of putting them in a matchup with those two. That’s because by the rules for vs. battles set by the community, the characters I like would lose horrendously. This “debater’s favourite wins” argument ignores the fact that there’s still plenty of scalers who will like Franchise X more than Franchise Y, but will still admit that characters from Y beat X. This is because they’re following “the rules” of the powerscaling “game”. People who end up making it clear that they ARE just playing favourites tend to get called out, even by casuals. Going outside of powerscaling, there’s lots of people who like certain sweets more than certain fruits. But you still get a good number of people who will concede that their favourite sweets are not healthier than certain fruits. The same applies to scaling; not everyone will argue out of favouritism or have favouritism be the defining subconscious reason behind the conclusion they reach. Of course there’s examples of people playing favourites in debates. However, saying EVERYONE in one community has the exact same mindset and approach to how they do things just ignores the basics behind the way humans function.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

Saying people dont act the exact same ignores how humans are social animals and will conform to the mob

[@Plazumah]

There are people who hate the idea of power scaling but in order to avoid what many like to call "plot holes" or "plot armor" some form of logic in the power structure is necessary I think. For example. The popularity of Madvocate's "The Flash is Insufferably inconsistent" series shows to me at least that many people do care when a character fails at something they logically shouldn't, even if it's the writer's decision ultimately.

[@uboa8060]

The difference comes from consistency and overly obsessing over *power.* Good stories don't use a grand majority of the levels of powers that people obsess over because anything above planetary is silly without a damn good reason. The higher the stakes are, the less people care, which is why most of power scaling is useless when it comes to discussing how well written a story is. This is why hobby writers, literary analysts, roleplayers, etc get annoyed when power scalers barge into their hobbies and start causing a ruckus because people who focus solely on power scaling don't realize how much power scaling tends to stamp the fun out of said hobbies. This isn't to say there's something wrong with power scaling as a hobby, it's just that some people get in your face about it.

[@sagua85]

@@uboa8060 More than a few comments I've seen in this and other powerscaling videos try to claim that authors are already powerscaling. But, powerscaling is a hobby where people take created works and try to derive the relative power of characters therein as the goal. The author of a story already knows the relative power of the characters they want to write, and if they have good writing skills then they can express this in a consistent and logical manner. Both parties can use a similar approach in their task. But, the authors aren't powerscaling in the same way fans are because they aren't going back over the works they created and suddenly finding out the relative power of those characters. And compared to powerscalers, the power level of the characters often isn't the main goal of an author. Inconsistent writing isn't about the writer being bad powerscalers, as inconsistencies goes beyond expressions of how powerful a character is, it is just about the writer being a bad writer.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

That's based on the writing of the show wheras power scaling is kinda fan fiction about who they personally like more winning a fight

[@Tachyon836]

Talk to em, I been power scaling for ages and the amount of people who don't understand it is wild

[@blaster.m1943]

ngl i think the real issue is the relativistic hobbyist nature of it, there needs to be DEFINITION of all this glossary no one can agree on a tiering system

[@mojojojox5043]

Thanks for this video, I never fully understood vs debating and power scaling but now I fully understand what it's about.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

My view on power scaling comes from a nuanced approach to it. I think there are merits to it that make it cool such as how impressive it is when a dude truly crunches the numbers and figures out a character from this silly little cartoon is actually this unholy powerful demon in the real world and compared to other characters? That's fun. It adds a layer to learning about your favorite characters and I can even see how the debate can be fun when kept civil. Where power scaling stops being fun and where ultimately I feel people come to reject it is that if we're being totally honest? It has NOT had the best rep by fans because primarily when power scaling enters a convo? It's usually because people are taking it way too seriously and are applying power scaling to areas that it really doesn't belong in. For example, the Stan Lee quote people share is a fair one because Stan is speaking on the matter of story, pointing out how worrying about who would win in a fight is unnecessary ultimately when constructing a narrative considering it is up to the writer and if they bogged themselves down in scaling? What might happen is a story becomes more rigid and when people take it too far? They can bog down characters to being little more than stats than characters. It's why power scaling is fascinating to me as an outsider meanwhile I can't stand versus debate aside from Death Battle because I often feel when the discussion is less about the character and more about their tiers of power? It sucks out what I think makes an idea like this interesting but of course, that's me because if that's what floats your boat then hey I ain't stopping you if you're cool about it. What really rubs me the wrong way is when I see people doing things like attacking others for daring to suggest their character in a fanmade fight would be lost (Looking at you assloads of DBZ fans I would so, SO rather not be associated with.) or when I see people so obsessively applying it as if it's an important part of media literacy that they actively ruining the stuff they watch the same way that obsessions with things like CinemaSins can lead to an unhealthy fixation on nitpicks which can harm your view of media. And for the record, power scaling really isn't needed in media. What people often refer to as "scaling" is really just maintaining a basic consistency so that your character doesn't go from weak noodle man who can't throw a punch to macho gigagod who can defeat people by flexing his nipples in a single paragraph and when it seemingly is used like say when a character drops a line comparing attacks to another? That's just because there's natural overlap. That being said, there's a difference between not being necessary for media and being useless which is why I think toxicity often comes about. The idea that the hours you might've spent combing through wikis, comics and films to say figure out how fast a character could go potentially could be useless is an upsetting one, especially when someone is seeming like they're going out of their way to invalidate your hobby which does suck or when the media in question does something that either contradicts your points or adds info that basically reshapes how one has to analyze something in this context but that's where of course instead of telling someone power scaling sucks or is useless? That's the point to maybe tell that person to step away, recharge and rethink their reasoning for getting into this in the first place so that they can hopefully return to enjoying this hobby in a healthy manner because at the end of the day that's really all this is, just a fun crazy hobby.

[@uboa8060]

This. 100% this. As a hobby writer and roleplayer (it really isn't as cringe as some people make it out to be, it's fun as fuck with friends and is basically just writing fan fiction with other people), power scalers are the *bane* of our existence. Power scaling fundamentally goes against the very fundamentals of collaborative writing, which is built on respect for other people and a want to have fun. When a power scaler comes along and starts going "Uhm achshally this would never happen, this character would solo everyone here because xyz", they're just being real annoying. Trying to introduce a scaling system stamps out all the fun and creativity because there's no point in even trying, because everything is predetermined by tier. There are no fun fights. And if your character blows up the planet, you're an asshole. People don't care about huge amounts of power and stakes because it's lame as shit at certain levels, they care about characters. This isn't to say that power scaling is a problem when it's done as a hobby, but trying to act like it's the most important thing ever is silly and outright wrong.

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

​@@uboa8060 I personally experienced this as a fanfiction writer. Basically I wrote a take on the second Goku vs. Superman Death Battle that aimed to be more about character than fighting since I was disappointed that the fight animation had both acting pretty out-of-tune with some ideas sprinkled in for what might've been fun to see in the fight. That fanfiction went through multiple revisions, some due to genuinely solid criticism but other times I got so fed up as an inexperienced writer with people going "Nuh-uh, Superman would totally lose!" even though that's not the point of the story that I kept revising to try and make something for everyone before I realized I just had to stop. Hell, there are moments in stories I like that I loathe have become boiled down to power scaling nonsense because people care more about a series adhering to the chart they have formed in their head and not the actual story.

[@suethafung7461]

Power scaling can be used for collaborative writing if everyone understands it which everyone probably doesn’t

[@the-aspiring-creator4249]

@@suethafung7461 Or they understand it and frankly don't care for it.

[@Laezar1]

Thank you!

[@JasonVoorheesUnstoppable]

Who here remembers celebrity death match, that was the goat of verses debating

[@serge-partykingtech5923]

I agree what you’re saying I think the only problem I have with a lot of power scalars is they nitpick how they scale someone up but they ignore all the weaknesses also in the same comics. And they also ignore writers downscale characters for a scene.

[@croissant2434]

I am a not power scaler. but like you said, I understand that this is a hobby, and wanted to understand what was the process, or what peoples could seek in this. because my experience so far, as being peoples being obnoxious about it, because they want they fav characters to win so much to the point when the idea of power scaling would tend to trigger a flag that the discussion is going to be downhill from there. the fact that a ton of context is implicit definitively didn't helped me understood it. since well, I am non-iniated, so I never learned all the "codes" and "standard" to a power scaling discussion. if I came across a power-scaling debate, I would certainly appreciate that peoples would be more explicite about those, cause I think that part didn't helped my experience of it. so, thanks for explaining what it is for a non initiated. and demonstrate that my experience so far as being far from being the general environement of a power scaling debate. it's not going to be my hobbie, this didn't sparked my interest, but it certainly help my own understanding of what going on in this part of the communities I interact with. so thanks!

[@dylanbp3106]

Yeah my most wanted MU of all times is Monokuma Vs Korosensei and oh boy it is NOT because of the debate. I adore these 2 and would love to see their personalities clash and I love how thematic it is, plus it’s just really fun.

[@theburnedman..]

It’s a bunch of Normie’s that don’t understand power scaling that just constantly shit on it even though Marvel and DC other franchises use power scaling

[@dereck9736]

Fax man they always talk about "stories" and "character development" when lots of characters wouldn't progress without power scaling

[@mekingtiger9095]

Look, I do understand the importance of consistent writing and the such in order for the audience to have a sense of stakes (in other words, powerscaling), but *DC and Marvel Comics???* Maaan, superhero comics right along with Dragon Ball are the LAST example of "good powerscaling" one should ever point out! Honestly, this is one of the reasons I can't stand powerscalers in general because a good chunck of them are heavily influenced by these 3 franchises. How can you be a powerscalers and still respect *any* of these verses when you apply "lugic" to their continuities? Like, I can get behind powerscaling any other series in existence that has the minimum amount of self respect and consistency in their settings, but powerscalers love to act as if comics and DB (but specially comics) were some of the most rational and brilliantly written series or stories powerscaling wise and that is what absolutely throws me off!

[@theburnedman..]

@@mekingtiger9095 are use DC and Marvel, because most people only power scale, DC and Marvel I am very aware of the many inconsistencies but they usually explain those inconsistencies 2 to 20 years comic books

[@kujojotarostandoceanman2641]

99% of powerscalers are the normies

[@kujojotarostandoceanman2641]

also marvel and DC are infamous for having shit power scaling where the strength of character is incredibly inconsistent and random character would just lose to someone that's 20 times weaker than them

[@Kalashee]

Personally, i think powerscaling is completely stupid because it’s fundamentally flawed to even begin with (like, people who actually take it seriously, for starters). But admittedly, it is fun to think about, and it is fun to watch people argue about it.

[@CoolOkay_]

I think it can just be harmless fun, there's people like Kyle Hill for example who power scales. He may not think of himself as one, but he is one. A lot of "because science" or his other fictional scientific based takes are still power scaling even when it may not seem like it.

[@Kalashee]

@@CoolOkay_ Well, for people like him, people of science, I guess it’s only natural - albeit, insanely ridiculous - to come at fictional power assessment from a purely scientific angle. But he seems to be more of a “can/could/would/should ____ do ____?” “What would happen if…-“ “If ___ were real, ___ would happen” kinda guy. I guess, he would be a subspecies of powerscaler?? 😆

[@suethafung7461]

Nobody takes this seriously nobody takes power scaling seriously even power skills don’t even take power scaling seriously when applying to the actual story power scale is don’t think that the stronger character is the better character it’s just fun nobody takes this seriously and when it does happen everyone just Says they’re losers

[@Kalashee]

@@suethafung7461 I wouldn’t necessarily say that’s true; there’s a bunch of powerscaling youtube channels & twitter accounts that take this VERY seriously.

[@largerthanastar]

Well, of course. The only answer to 'who would win between two fictional characters' is 'the author determines who wins'. Powerscalers count as authors of fictional scenarioes.

[@tyreeandrews1308]

Debate powerscaling is good when both debaters knows both of the stories for example I got called a retard by the mk community cause I said galactus can beat mk1 fire god liu kang but none of them didn’t know who galactus was

[@demonarcher1661]

Amazing video man Finally someone had to say this

[@MinecraftWorld1954]

This video is the perfect summary of why I love powerscaling. Not only is it a hobby, but in a way, it’s also a method of viewing and interpreting a verse. And that exact mentality has helped give me a massive appreciation for a lot of my favorite franchises (some notable examples being Ultraman, Godzilla, and Lego Ninjago) and has allowed me to explore series that I wouldn’t have ever checked out on my own (some examples being The Nemesis Saga, Titanic Creations, and Lego Monkie Kid), and allowed me to gain respect for a lot of the characters within their series.

[@jamespaguip5913]

But in the end their no true winner because both universes don’t share the same laws and physics getting angry over a character losing or winning is just to childish.

[@MinecraftWorld1954]

@@jamespaguip5913 Sure, but there's also a personal catharsis in seeing a character that you prefer winning over another

[@jamesm.bernales9412]

​@MinecraftWorld1954 Do you even have a life or something else better to do than compare characters with random ass numbering and numerical calculations that your deluded mind thinks?

[@Eficiente_VSB]

If I had a popular channel this is the type of video I would have made 5-to-10 years ago. It's correct and all, but nowadays it worries me more the sheer amount of bad applies in the community. If I had to choose between doing something to try to fix that and try to fix those misconceptions on how people view things from the outside, I would choose the former due to being more important, and because one thing is partially connected to the other. Most of the time I see your channel I notice how you react to bad things the community did or could reasonably do in the immediate future, and I always see you as if surprised by this, every time. That's something that I don't think it's normal, not only does nobody have a community like that in other channels, but if this was so common they would absolutely do something about it. I obviously have no issue with this video, I'm just saying that if in the future you ever feel like tackling internal issues then that would would great. Also, please try to compare how you handle your community when negative things pop up and how other channels may do the same, I definitely see that something's off there and maybe it's too normalized & viewed as "normal" otherwise.

[@mekingtiger9095]

I'm not actively a part of the community. I'm more of an outsider who likes to occasionally watch the community from a distance. But I have seen a perceived increase in drama in the community in these last few days. What is going on?

[@Eficiente_VSB]

@@mekingtiger9095 You mean the Smash Bracket thing. As in, the parts of that that are related to how the community is. Well, that happened right before this video and no one could have predicted it. Nothing "new" is going on, the flawed way the community has always been was always a ticking time bomb waiting for things like that to happen.

[@mekingtiger9095]

​@@Eficiente_VSB Actually, I mean the flood of videos on KZbin that have been picked up by the algorithm since around last week bashing on powerscaling. Although it might have an indirect connection to this Smash Bracket thing? I don't know. I only know that there's been considerably more talk about this topic on KZbin than normal. In either case, I feel like it's important to address the amount of "bad apples" in the community that has been growing over the past months and year. I've been noticing a considerable growth in powerscaling as a trend and even as a "TikTok trend" and it's been particularly worrying that a crap ton of disinformation by wankers has been spread throughout the internet. Not even a few years ago, just busting a Solar System would have been considered impressive. Now it seems like every single character is being scaled to Universal at a minimum and then Multiversal to Low Complex Multiversal on average over any bit of iffy, vague suggestion that these guys can find (5D Infinite speed Multiversal Kratos????? What in the fucking hell?????). It feels like a civil war that is spilling beyond the forums and Vs Battle Wiki and is starting tk affect the entire internet as a whole. What is going on?

[@Eficiente_VSB]

@@mekingtiger9095 I'm aware. I'm a staff in Vs Battles wiki and an adult, I've thinking of it for some time. There is a good amount of blame in the people who care too much/obsesses over higher stats, OP abilities & complex cosmologies, they have that as a preconceived premise when doing Vs and it leads to buying into the stupidest sh*t ever. This flawed way to view Vs spreads for person to person as an unhealthy way to seek fun.They may also have people around who isn't quite like this but lack the sense of responsibility to see anything with it. You can see a massive difference of how people do Vs in other countries who talk other languages, as they didn't have DB, animationrewind, or the like, and so they don't have the repercussions they led to. The sad part is that the people who do Vs like this in English-talking countries are too naive to know just how many friends with manias they have and how things are gonna end up for them.

[@cheesefinder111]

Powerscaling is fun but has been ruined by toxicity, illogical people and fanboys. I enjoy scaling a verses cosmology and characters, but when it comes to putting characters against eachother it's a whole different deal...

[@noodle8061]

I just wish some people wouldn't take it so seriously. Some people will get so pissed if you say X character beats Y character. It's fun to talk about but in my honest opinion, tiktok has given Power Scalers an absolute horrendous stereotype

[@Vitor20XX]

Something dumb af about PS community is pixel calc, that is based on headcanon by fans mostly to wank characters. Non canonical sizes and distances only to up characters.

[@imheretolurkandstealmemes4669]

thanks, I will still continue to personally lump everything above solar system level and below infinite as "the writers didn't care and these are all the same"

[@four-en-tee]

I can understand the hate towards the drama, elitism and attitude that comes from the powerscaling and vs debate community, but I hate this whole "its whoever the author wants to win" schtick because it ignores internal consistency in writing. If Wolverine is gonna beat Galactus, then the writers are gonna have to do a LOT of legwork to justify that and make that outcome believable. Wolverine would need a training arc, tons of buffs to his character, a narrative reason for having to beat Galactus, etc. because Galactus is just that much above him. This is an admission that Wolverine is weaker and thus has to go through some sort of growth to overcome that challenge, WHICH ADMITTEDLY can be narratively satisfying if the premise and execution of the story is done well. (dont @ me if there is some god-slaying version of Wolverine, this is just a hypothetical designed to make a point) Vs Debates and powerscaling dont have that luxury because you're only allowed to use currently available information, and it gets even more strict if you're not using a composite version of the character and have to stick with feats of a character before and during a certain point in time in their story. Like, Chunin Exam Naruto and Six Paths Naruto would be two entirely different debates.

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

Arent you guys taking the roles of writers by saying this character beats that one

[@opadrip]

​@@nagatouzumaki4047Why do you just keep repeating the same blanket statement with no substance? Nobody's writing fanfiction here, unless you wanna argue that having any single debate ever makes you a writer.

[@RichDXtreme247]

(Edit: Holy shit, I made it long) ….Powerscaling debates is a pretty tough thing to even think about. I’m not in powerscaling community at all, I’m just the type that likes to see cool shit, y’know? Like put two people in a scaling debate and they’ll go to ends of the Earth to a fierce argument over who wins or who loses in a fight. Like, a fictional battle between characters is much more different than two humans duking it out. But the thing about humans is that…we also have stats ourselves and it all depends who is superior in a fight. For example, boxing. (Just so you know, I’ll be making this grossly simple because I won’t be bothered to think more with numbers.) Put two boxing champions (Boxer A and Boxer B) in a ring to battle and we all know one guy has to win the whole thing due to whose training, strategy, conditioning, and skills is better than the other. Congratulations, Boxer B came out victorious. People are celebrating, while others are pissed off that their guy didn’t win. But even then, put those same boxers in another boxing match in the future, instead Boxer A came out as the victor this time. Not all battles are absolute but cannot deny that for a FICTIONAL person that can battle to the DEATH, there are RULES to them. One set of rules to a fictional world is much more different or similar than or to the other. And with VS battles, its entire deal is to know who is OBJECTIVELY correct in a battle and it’s both CHALLENGING and FRUSTRATING. Whose favorite character is only a matter of subjective but in a battle, it’s all about who is more objectively efficient and would WIN competitively. Like, have (Anime Character A vs Toon Force B) fight and Toon Force B STOMPS on them due to their rules being…y’know, more outlandish than the other due to themselves as nothing more than a funny gag character that can cheat realistic laws. Or have (Anime Character A vs Anime Character B) fight and Anime Character A wins due to having an ability to bypass Character B’s ability to make an energy barrier and kill them from within their own protection. See how I made these scenarios up? I’m not saying this because “The winner is whoever the writer decides”. No, if the battle is done by a person with no bias and actively studied each character and what they do with a passion to create an EQUAL fight yet STILL DO WHAT THEY DO NORMALLY WITHIN THEIR SOURCE MATERIAL and can figure it out within reason and no bullshit, it’s either it’s considered fair or it doesn’t make any fucking sense because not all fighters are equal to one another in the slightest. There will always be someone stronger or more absurd than the other. There will always be a some sort of bias within these debates. Or there is no bias, it’s just a unfortunate fact of a power that a fictional character has that everyone accepts and nobody can counter or find a weakness to it. TL;DR: VS battles are cool to be entertained by visually, but dangerous to talk about when it comes to finding a reasonable victor without a bias but no equal passion. Not all characters powers are the same due to the rules of source material, but it’s unfortunately fair game in media purposes when everything is neutral ground.

[@imperiumVII]

This was a fantastic video, but i honestly could give less of a shit if a favorite character of mine is stronger or weaker than another. I just dont care for debating, and it's fine if other people want to do that, you all have the right to discuss whatever you find passionate about. As long as you don't go harassing or doxxing people for thinking differently than you

[@Zulk_RS]

First video of yours I'm watching. I don't quite agree with your point about using Newton's 3rd Law for things like Piccolo blowing up the moon because I am not quite sure if it works with raw energy which most characters attack with in versus debates. That's not the point though. I agree with you that Power Scaling is just a hobby and not to be taken seriously. I enjoy Death Battle and wondering "who would win if". It's just fun. I do feel like people who take it too seriously and sometimes make wild interpretations of feats to make their character "Win" and those who dismiss it all together as "Whoever the writer says wins" both miss the point. Honestly arguing about who would win is just a wacky and fun way to entertain yourself. Even if the math is wrong and the logic is flawed, simply discussing how a fight between "B vs C" would go is fun as long as nobody takes it too seriously. As for the "whoever the author wishes to win" quote. One thing that I think people need to realize is that in most vs scenarios that actually happen in a story (Like Goku vs Frieza in DBZ) the point isn't "Who would win" but rather "How they win". Frieza was written to be able to destroy planets. We know that Goku wins because Goku is the main character and Toriyama wanted Goku to win in that story. The important part was "How would Goku, who hasn't shown at that point to be anywhere close to Frieza, win?" The story then goes over Zenkai boosts, a Spirit Bomb attempt that didn't work, Gohan, Vegeta, Krillian and Piccolo all contributing in their own ways, Frieza being overconfident and Goku finally achieving Super Saiyan before Goku was able to beat Frieza. If we took the original "Goku vs Frieza" scenario and did it stupidly seriously (like how I've noticed some people on the internet do with fictional versus debates and how I've seen some people get mad over Death Battle results), it would either end with Frieza instantly going Final form 100% power and blowing up namek or Goku or both before Goku even had a chance to do anything or it would end with Goku instantly going SSJ with no build-up and blowing up Frieza. It is true that in any story, if two characters fight, the one who will win is the one the author makes win. However, it's also important to the story that the win is believable. If Beerus goes full power against Yamcha but the author wants Yamcha to win, Yamcha will win but Yamcha can't just punch Beerus in the face and destroy him like he's Saitama. That would destroy the suspension of disbelief. The story will have to put in the leg work to make Yamcha win. Maybe Yamcha unlocked some secret power up. Maybe Yamcha gave Beerus the slip and quickly killed Supreme Kai to kill Beerus that way. Maybe Beerus had some mind control or something that was making him fight less like a sentient fighter and more like a wild animal flailing about. Maybe Yamcha discovered the one technique that is the God of Destruction's one crippling weakness. I feel like some people who use that quote to dismiss versus debating miss that point.

[@hadouradiance3566]

This video is nothing but facts. Edit: I feel like people are supremely strict with DB as much as they are super lenient towards it. Like how many times I've seen the "WHY DONT THEY DESTROY THE PLANET WHEN THEY TRANSFORM" argument, which imo is nothing but bad faith.

[@dylancross1039]

Except that isn't bad faith. The fact that the shockwaves of hits can "rip the universe apart" and powering up can literally fuck with the timeline it makes negative sense that powering up wouldn't just straight up disintegrate the planet. At least Marvel is consistent with that. Thor and Gorr clashing was destroying the neighboring planets and when Thor hit Beta Ray Bill at one point the planet they were on was destroyed.

[@suethafung7461]

Basically just control your power

[@travisoliver6741]

​@@dylancross1039So I guess Galactus just not obliterating Earth with his farts when his fight with Tyrant was threatening galaxies is perfectly consistent? Hulk, being able to clap away a Universe while only moderately annoyed against the Darkcrawler, was consistent with his earlier showings with him being genuinely angry yet not being planetary is consistent? It's bad faith because its completely stupid and irrelevant. Characters at their levels of power are generally portrayed as being capable of either holding back their power, or minimizing the destructive aspect of it. It's also a way to prevent mass casualties. Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann is the size of the ovservable Universe at bare minimum, yet no one in their right minds would assume Simon would actually use that anywhere beyond the empty Universe that the Anti-Spiral created. Beerus, on the other hand of the spectrum, explicitly can destroy a Universe, yet has the precision to blow away only half a planet with just a tap of his fingernail.

[@Eminster]

Broly in dbs kinda breaks that

[@RealMonzer]

@@dylancross1039 It is bad faith because DB has an in universe explanation for why this doesn’t happen (ki control). DB is actually one of the only fictional universes that addresses this.

[@unrestrainedclown2808]

I’m very into the versus community, however, I’m not that big into power*scaling*, I personally find the discussion of MU’s and all that goes with it a lot more fun (even if there are nincompoops that think MU discussion should be treated objectively despite the fact it’s arguably more subjective than versus debating) but anyway, I like how you touched on the MU side of things here, and how a lot of the people who make or judge MU’s do so out of a love for the characters rather than seeing them as pure stats. My favorite part was probably touching on the differences between peoples standards for MU’s. Like me personally I like out of the box series combinations and usually prefer characters to have similar motivations when it comes to thematics, but there are always gonna be people who prefer to just go for legacy MU’s or the most standard series combinations, and while it can be frustrating at times it is important to keep in mind it’s all just personal taste, and that no one is definitively right or wrong about a MU’s quality or whether you’re allowed to enjoy it.

[@jakzelirizarry8446]

Still waiting for the sun wukong vs hercules prediction

[@tristanthewalrus7496]

I enjoy vs debating nowadays because of curiosity and excitement of thinking how certain characters would interact and who would win in a legitimate fight. But I suppose I'm a somewhat casual vs debater watcher. I look at other people debate and decide for myself after hearing from all sides, only stepping in if I know a piece of info is wrong or if I know the Character(s) enough that I can represent them. I was a bit obsessive with vs debating when I was younger but mellowed out over the years, I still care about who's more likely to win, but I also care about the interaction, and thematics of the matchup just as much. Hulk vs Asura is my most wanted fight I wanted to see ever since Asura's Wrath came out. I know Hulk roflstomps him, but its my favorite superhero vs one of my favorite video game characters from one of my favorite games of all time, and I just think the fight would be hype as heck. As someone who grew up on Sonic and constantly seeing the internet shittng on him and his "shitty friends" until recent years (thank god), I will never shit on an entire fandom because of a few rotten apples. So I guess what I'm trying to say is, you keep doing you whoever is reading this. And if you enjoy and like what you do (that isn't moraly messed up of coarse), then I'd say it's worth it to see it through

[@comfyghost]

i happen to know a reason why some people might have this perception of the vs community, that being some people take power scaling into story speculation. if people started speculating over something like a plot point that hasn't/didn't happen in a series but could/could've, and it happens to involve two or more characters fighting, some people might tackle that like a vs debate rather than a story analysis, and that's just annoying. for example, the recent fight in the jjk manga between gojo and sukuna was one that readers knew was gonna happen months before we saw it, lasted months in its own right and was even teased during the series infancy, so it was something readers had more than enough time to speculate over, and while some looked at what these characters represented, how the series had tackled fights before and even the author's opinions on the characters in question, others looked at their feats, and then because it's the internet, no-one was civilised about it.

[@samant7101]

A lot of people think the vs debate community is somehow special on the internet in terms of aggressivity. You talk like JJK fans who only cared about the narrative were also calm and civilized. As you said, its the internet, EVERY group of people starts war with everyone, powerscalers are not an exception or special case.

[@comfyghost]

@@samant7101 mate, when i said no-one, i meant absolutely no-one. i was already calling jjk fans uncivilised, how did you misread that.

[@hectorcantu6344]

you where spittin straight scripture with this one, amen brother

[@TortoiseNotTurtle]

As snother thing on the Stan Lee point... Wheres the author? Jason Vorhees and Michael Myres as re written by tsl different people for example and ofc their suthor may think that the giy they created wins. In that sense, powerscaling is meant to be a neutral view WITHOUT author biases

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

Except the versus community are biased and they take the place of the writer

[@TortoiseNotTurtle]

​@nagatouzumaki4047 Except it becomes way more complex once you realize... it's a debate and not a writing project. For example: A writer would want to make Goku vs Superman conpelling and "Superman splatters Goku against a wall in one hit" isn't compelling. A debater however would have that as an acceptable conclusion as they're not trying to make quality. And while yes everyone has their own biases it's kinda dumb to hold that against people or to act as if no objectivity can be gleamed whatsoever. No matter how much you may dislike Frieza, he destroyed a planet. And even then just about everything has some level of "bias", but that doesn't warrant it being disregarded. If we were to do so then fucking nothing would get done because everything has tiny, unimportant drops of bias. This also once again doesn't answer stuff like groups. Many will often have mediators or those unaffiliated with either side, or those who straight up dont know Jack shit about either char. A fan can't really take the place of a writer in this instance as the writer must be to some level familiar eith the stories and their own intent for this to work. Tl;dr: No not exactly. Debate and writing are two different things which look and take different things into account

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

It's not writing insofar as trying to make a compellling story It's more like fan fiction kinda akin to x character sleeps with y character in a mature sorta It's something concucted by fans to appease their desires And about the unallifated third party thing, I noticed more times then not that the versus fandom is one group not multiple all sharing the same or similar beliefs on every subject Go into a naruto server and ask does jigen vs kaguya, people will say jigen lol no diffs all of shippuden even when that clearly is not reflected in the source material

[@nagatouzumaki4047]

There's next to no debate in versus communties They have very clear beliefs as a whole and will literally will ban them or try to dox just cause x person dont think arceus can destoy infinite universes This sorta behavior is tribal, it's not of one that constantly debates no it's one that has a very clear dislike of debate and rather just wants to talk solely to 1 group that agrees with him You dont get echo chambers where everybody follows consenus by having a group filled with people who wanna debate and argue on each and every point

[@TortoiseNotTurtle]

@@nagatouzumaki4047 Uhhh no? Wdym there's no debate in versus communities, it's literal versus debating. No offense but you're literally going "these very bad people are the complete average versus debater" Also no? I can literally take you to threads that have Neutral mediators and a community decision that goes based on pop vote. When I wanted to look up jjk domain expansions I found a thread where nobody was banned, everyone was allowed to give their takes and a democratic vote was held to Guage what people believed/found more convincing. Thats like saying, "Theres no analysis in the media analysis community. It's just people who have very clear beliefs on what a piece of media and ban anyone who disagrees. You say they have next to no debate but also offer up a very judgemental and clearly biased opinion with no room for any possible change lmfao. You're the type of person you speak ill of. Also "and will literally ban them or try to dox just cause x person don't think arceus can destroy infinite universes", I've had plenty experiences with vs debaters. Most I talk to haven't even touched upon Arceus. It's really clear you're using one sole anecdote as your argument which on e again is just as harsh and judgemental.

[@einekartoffel2490]

Good video. Though I disagree with the second law of thermodynamics argument, because that's real life physics and fiction doesn't always tend to follow that, especially when writers forget about those. It's a valid thing to use when the fiction doesn't offer an alternative, but if there's a phenomenon of characters being glass canons with great power output yet fragile bodies then that would need to be accepted. Just like accepting that in real life falling into a pool of water from a great height would break your body whereas in action movies pools of water break your fall. Seeing the pools of water as like a durability feat would both go against the idea that the character is just a really skilled human and also against the idea that they view the pool of water as the only safe get-away option in comparisson to the realistically softer ground around it. That also kinda leads me to my disagreement that analysis of plot beats would necessarily be the same as trying to guess how an author would write a crossover. It can also be an attempt at guessing at the internal nature of the world or the characters through the themes of the plot and aids in picking out outliers that only exist for the sake of the plot. Like the difference between extreme action feats and extreme slice of life feats (even within the same series) or one-time feats that only exist out of symbolism rather than internal consistency. Ignoring that kinda risks treating elastic scales as rigid or semi-elastic ones as always rigid. (Also, if you have a metafictional opponent, those plot beats would then be valid to be weaponized by them and against them.) But yeah, it's all subjective and it's supposed to be a fun hobby.

[@blaster.m1943]

i say its more like "Narrative Speculation"

[@josephjoestar2963]

I think its very important to have a well defined set of abilities and stats for your character, because then, its easier to imagine how a fight would play out and make sense of it. And if youre a writer, be able to make something creative. For me, for example, when watching the naruto vs neji fight in the chunin exam, were completely baffled with how it ended. Trough the fight, it was shown repeteadly times, neji fucking with naruto. Beating him up like a toy. The only damage he received, was from the kunai clash at the end, and even after that, we saw him stand up totally fine. And just like that, with only ONE PUNCH IN THE JAW, NARUTO DEFEATED HIM. I was so angry, i just stopped watching it for days

[@SqueezeableLemons]

This video is good like i've seen some power scalers who for a lack of better term (dick riding) goku or saying Krillin "forced" goku to go blue against him in super when in reality goku was testing him on how he will deal with stronger opponents but they immediately dismissed that and say that krillin is on par with god ki which makes no sense. but they were dick heads about it

[@thomasthecoolkid7228]

It's probably the idea that even a fraction of a fraction of Blue's power should be enough to one-shot Krillin out of existence, but he still survived and that means he's obviously relative It's still BS, but that's probably it.

[@mystic6121]

@@thomasthecoolkid7228 That is it it makes no sense other wise

[@toxicrepeter8607]

I find that the best power scaling fights happen when people bring up feats based on the characters abilities. Oh A can throw B into space? We've seen B hold his breath underwater for a long time so they should survive. Or, B can control ice? Well A can control water so in particle level they should be able to turn the tables. We can collectively create a completely new story by treating interactions with creativity.