NOT THE YORKIE! - Buffy the Vampire Slayer Reaction - 7x2 - Beneath You

[@hardybryan]

Spike as a soulless vampire wasn't like Angelus. Angelus lived to torment people. Suffering was his art and all he found joy in. Spike was never like that. Even when he behaved like that it was because he was trying to impress Dru. Spike is a romantic fool with issues around women, who are the yardstick he seems to measure his self worth by. That gets extremely twisted when you remove a moral compass and pair him off with an absolute sadist like Dru. But you were never going to see the complete dichotomy of Angelus and Angel. The Judge even accused Spike of wreaking of humanity in season 2, yet said there was none in Angelus. Liam had been an empty shell of a man, wasting his life drinking and whoring. The Demon in him completely took over. William was a poet, there was a piece of humanity it couldn't get out of him.

[@TheHalloweenKing]

I also think Angel saw the humanity in Spike, but also the demon he could become and used it for for evil. This is why I personally think he took a second chance on Faith, because faith is the spike slayers

[@spikejr3113jr]

Spike loved the fight way more than the kill, as a human William never fought back, becoming a vampire gave Spike the strength to fight back, it also explains why Spike sought out slayers were Angelus didn’t, Angules loved the killing and torture were Spike just loved the fight.

[@briangreen8033]

Astute analysis.

[@HansMuneEnBy]

I think it shows how much better Spike was even before getting back his soul. It's not the demon in Angel that is evil... it was always the human.

[@dylanburton4955]

@@HansMuneEnByThat last bit you said is very similar to what Angel said in Amends when he was wanting to die

[@markmcminn7572]

Forget what you think of the characters etc. Just from an Acting point of view James Marsters and SMG absolutely nailed that Church scene! It’s one of my favourite scenes in all 7 seasons! Marsters really showing his background as a theatre actor to the absolute best! He smashed that monologue!

[@buff_0292]

James Marsters is an AMAZING actor in the last seasons

[@Madbandit77]

He should have gotten an Emmy nomination at least.

[@Logan_Baron]

Originally he was just going to tell Buffy that he got his soul back. But then they decided it would be better to not quit spell it out and have it revealed to Buffy piece by piece. So they rewrote it, and this works much better.

[@Nicamon]

"Forget what you think of the characters etc."I tried to do what you asked. I tried to forget anything I feel about Spike personally and I've watched the scene 1st in Italian(to be sure to understand what Spike was saying)and then in English and yes,from an acting point of view he's been amazing...but I already knew that. I've always known James Marsters is an excellent actor. But from the _emotional_ point of view?Nothing. I'm sorry. I don't know if it's because I just *can't* forget how I _truly_ feel about Spike or just because the scene itself doesn't move me enough in general(it happens that some scenes even with characters you love can't trigger you the right way)...I just feel nothing during that scene. I can praise it from a _tecnical objective_ point of view,but on a personal level it's as forgettable as it can get. Sorry. I promise I've tried.

[@markmcminn7572]

@@Nicamonthat’s totally fine! You like the characters you like and you don’t like the characters you don’t like. Everyone will have different options on characters etc. As an actor myself I loved the scene and simply praising the acting from two very good actors 😊👍

[@rfresa]

Remember, it took Angel a hundred years to get even to where he was in season one of Buffy, and he has developed a lot since then. Spike still has a long way to go.

[@MARYWTHER]

Took him a hundred years to be a homeless man rigged with self-hatred in New York City lol. And from Angel's canon, we know that Angel went back to Darla even *after* he got his soul back.

[@Nicamon]

I wish this was true.🙄

[@fefelps.9544]

@@Nicamon ? but is

[@Nicamon]

@@fefelps.9544 SPOILER I remember taking Spike only a handful of episodes of S7 before starting to behave normally like he did in S5,not hundreds of years.

[@Dudeamis17]

I think one thing Spike has going for him is that he wanted the soul

[@AdzPower]

I'm not usually on Xander's side but I think the point he was trying to make with the "sooner or later that excuse stops working" line was yeah I screwed up big time and I'm an idiot but that doesn't mean you get to hurt innocent people because of it. And yeah the Spike thing was a bit of a mis-direct, he dressed up like "Spike" and tried to act like "Spike" in an attempt to be "normal", but it didn't work, and he went to get his soul back because he was so horrified by what he had done to Buffy he wanted to become someone who wasn't capable of doing those things anymore, for her.

[@invadertifxiii]

👏👏👏👏 perfectly said

[@Girl4Music]

Very “soulless”.

[@hardybryan]

I don't think he was horrified by what he did, I think he was horrified because he's not dumb enough to believe Buffy could ever take him back after that. You could see in his face when he had the idea to get his soul back talking to Clem. He looked like he had found 'the answer', 'the thing that will make her forgive me'. And suddenly he's smiling again because he's not racked with guilt. He's racked with desperation on how to get Buffy back and jumps into a plan he had no way of understanding the consequences of.

[@Girl4Music]

@@hardybryan It’s certainly one way to look at it.

[@RV-vx9ek]

​@Emma Wilson its closer to what was initially said. A souless being who can't feel guilt, remorse, self-reflect...won't be horrifed by those actions, only the consequences, which was that Buffy didn't want him, and told him to kick rocks.

[@SS2Dante]

14:20 "Is he trying to get himself killed?" That's *exactly* what he was doing - Spike was deliberately trying to goad Buffy into killing him, suicide-by-cop style. Angel did the exact same thing way back in season 1, acting like the bad guy she thought he was so she would kill him. Spikes "costume" was the "put-together-good-guy" he was trying to present himself as, but since that act crumbled at the first test (Anya calling him on the soul) Spike gave up and decided he'd be better off dead, since he was too broken to be helpful for even a few hours.

[@Nicamon]

Poor thing.🤍

[@didinau]

James and Sarah killed that last scene!

[@Kal911]

“An i flesh to you?” Spike was talking about how spike used him through sex in season 6. “Spilling useless buckets of salt over your ending” season 5 finale when he was crying.

[@Girl4Music]

Conflating death and sex together. Pleasure and pain. Violence and love. Good and evil.

[@kurtsnyder4752]

​@@Girl4MusicDuality.

[@Girl4Music]

@@kurtsnyder4752 Very poetic. Very William.

[@stephaniebarker472]

The “Holding myself, spilling useless buckets of salt over your ending” is supposed to have double meaning. Yes, crying over her death (ending) in S5, but also pleasuring himself over the memory of her climax (ending) during their many encounters in S6. Duality, conflation of sex and death, all of it.

[@Girl4Music]

@@stephaniebarker472 and this is why this is one of the best episodes of Season 7. Season 7 is my least favourite season of Buffy so that’s not surprising.

[@therocpd]

I love that they filmed Giles and Willows scenes in a farm actually owned by Anthony Stewart Head

[@kurtsnyder4752]

!

[@Logan_Baron]

Note that Spike is still crazy right now. Both the good guy in the blue shirt showing up to help, and the 'same old Spike' in the Bronze fight are costumes/acts. With a soul now, Spike doesn't even know who he is now (even without the crazy). It's a big work in progress. Getting a soul was not the simple fix that Spike thought. I imagine he thought that he'd get the soul back and just go back, tell Buffy "All's Good now" and they'd be together and things would be great. It's not that simple and Spike only saw that AFTER the sould reentered. So his plans actually completely changed. And Angel did try to keep being evil and with Darla right after he got his soul back the first time. And then he spent AGES being nothing before he became close to the Angel we know now (though he has still developed from there) and it was Buffy that changed/inspired him then. MAYBE Spike might have a head start having already been inspired by Buffy, but it's still a work in progress.

[@Nicamon]

The"costume"thing made me think of Willow in"Restless". SPOILER "And then he spent AGES being nothing before he became close to the Angel we know now (though he has still developed from there)"Exactly. *HE* did.

[@Dudeamis17]

Spike has always been about putting on a show.

[@c.morgan722]

Spike and Buffy in the church is my favorite scene in the entire series!

[@WilliamLucas-ef6qc]

I remember when I had this on dvd it always skipped out the flip right before that bit.

[@buff_0292]

I find it so hard to watch personally

[@spikejr3113jr]

My favourite Spike and Buffy scene personally hasn’t come yet.

[@buff_0292]

@@spikejr3113jr yessss omg the bedroom scene is fabulous

[@Lucy-uv4hv]

Spike: drapes himself over a cross Lexi: oh my god, the imagery of that, jesus christ! Yes, literally 🤣

[@odinthorson1830]

Exactly 🤣👍

[@TigerNightmare]

The end scene made my cry, and most things don't break me. If you remember the Angel season 2 episode Darla, Angel kind of went through the same thing where he tried to be with Darla again, go through the motions as if nothing changed. It seems Spike didn't want to be absolved, have the excuse of not having a soul, but still driven to help Buffy and be near her. Perhaps thinking she will accept him again as an ally, but keeping her at a distance so he can internalize his turmoil, because he surely doesn't feel the right to comfort, love, understanding, or forgiveness.

[@Itcouldbebunnies]

The scene in Frankfurt is a reference to the German movie 'Lola Rennt'. Btw: the lyrics to the techno song are "von der Tiefe verschlingt es", which is just...neat!

[@Kap00rwith2os]

The best part of this episode was that ending scene, which was written by Joss Whedon. It's so creepy, disturbing and heartbreaking all at the same time.

[@xxSydneyFox]

Actually if you remember The Master called Angelus the most vicious creature he's ever met. Angelus is a bit of an outlier, kind of like how Spike is but in the opposite direction. Angelus is extremely evil, Spike is extremely emotional/ expressive.

[@katpiercemusic]

Spike was essentially functioning like he had a soul before he got his soul back. He felt deep guilt for what he did and had a desire to atone for it in his own way. I mean his understanding of atonement was kind of messed up, but getting his soul back didn’t change him as much as he thought it would. He thought his soul would make him a good person… make him worthy, but he is just as capable of hurting Buffy with his souls as he was without, and I think he understands that at this point and he doesn’t know how to process that. Plus invisible evil messing with his head. That doesn’t help.

[@MrLorenzovanmatterho]

"Oh the imagery of that, Jesus Christ!", yes, literally!

[@zemoxian]

I’m going to go out on a limb and say however bad being left at the alter is, it’s not quite a justification for demonic serial murder.

[@antwanzhane]

agreed // like, yea, Xander’s choice to leave her at the altar, ending their relationship & breaking her heart, sent her down but, hun, you gotta be accountable for your actions,, grief or no

[@emilysimon6239]

Spike reminds me of faith. She had potential to be a good person, and she is a good person. But she didn’t believe she was, she acted out to get a negative attention that would reinforce what she already believed about herself. It’s a vicious cycle. Spike feels guilty, overwhelmed, is mentally, unwell, so he’s doing bad things to try to get the treatment he deserves, or thinks he deserves.

[@salexo9]

It was Anya's choice to become a vengeance demon again and kill. She really can't blame it on Xander.

[@Nicamon]

D'Hoffryn manipulated the whole thing _and_ her in a moment of extreme pain and vulnerability. She should blame _him_ but that's the thing about manipulation...it usually prevents you from blaming the real culprit.

[@Buffy8Fan]

@@Nicamon Not to mention even if she didn't become a demon again, she has justification for being upset with Xander.

[@PatheticApathetic]

@@Buffy8Fan being upset with Xander, sure. Deciding to go back to maiming and murdering people because of it, no

[@kyleellis1825]

@@Buffy8Fan Because one of the victims from her first 1'000 years of torture showed up and gave him a vision? Yeah Xander says it was the right choice later on. But the reason he walked out on the wedding and dumped her so horribly was because of that. That was both of them not dealing with past problems.

[@Buffy8Fan]

@@kyleellis1825 He wouldn't have needed to even consider it was the right choice if he talked to Anya about the issues behind his cold feet before the wedding. The demon took advantage of his cold feet and therefore had power over him. The demons issues against Anya still would have been there if her and Anya talked, but the demon wouldn't have been able to use Xander's issues if he opened up to her about them between Halloween when he first got them and the wedding day.

[@xxSydneyFox]

I'm sure by now you know James is theatre trained, that's why that monologue is so good!

[@trueultimagod2465]

Angel and Angelus are very similar in a lot of ways. There was even a hint of this in Doppelganger Season 3 where Buffy says to Willow when seeing her Vampire self that the personality of the Vampire has nothing to do with their original self and Angel responds with "Well actually... Good point." Which is a hint that they share more in common that you think and memories are shared as if it were you're own experience.

[@Nicamon]

People seriously need to *stop* using that line to excuse HOW MUCH Souless Spike and Souled Spike are similar!Expecially if they at the same time treat Angelus as an _exception_ because he's _more_ evil than an average souless vampire!X-[

[@didinau]

​@@Nicamon maybe because Liam was an asshole when he was alive. And William was a sweetheart

[@Sytrylt]

@@Nicamon I would say YOU seriously need to stop talking to people like that ! It's a little insulting, a lot direspectful AND a tad intimidating to tell people they can't think what they want about a show or the characters in it. a lot of people, me included, told you in details our opinions. you don't have to share it. But you can't just post on every comments telling people to stop saying or thinking what they think !

[@Nicamon]

@@didinau Willow was a sweetheart in S3,but I don't remember VampWillow being the same.(And I said _in S3_ so,please,don't bring Dark Willow in the conversation...besides she's _the worst possible version_ of Human Willow and if Souless Spike is the worst possible version of Human William...I think you can see from yourself as the 2 don't even remotely compare.Once again...Souless Spike and Souled Spike _are not-different-enough._ >^

[@Sytrylt]

@@didinau Also, they share the vampire memories. AND Spike went to look for his soul. It was not a curse. So he is adapting differently. Every vampire is different. We saw it with the master, darla, spike, dru, angelus, etc... They react to something impactful differently. They have a personality. So... why would they all do things in the same way ? That wouln't make sense. Spike is trying to go as he did, because that's all he knew for a hundred years. He as more memories of him as a vampire than him as a human. And letting the human out is more painfull than pushing it inside and try and ignore the pain and guilt. That's what humans do to ! We don't always swallow in our guilt. Some people hide it, and pretend it's not there, until... they can't pretend anymore.

[@trevor3013]

That intri scene is a reference to the German movie Run Lola Run. I remember because i had to watch that movie in my high school film class

[@zemoxian]

I think in this instance when he shouted at the sky “it’s what you wanted?” I think he was actually talking to god. When he said we’re in a “sodding engine” he was referring to the church, going with the soul = spark metaphor. Yeah the chip activated when he stabbed the guy. He was expecting to stab a demon and was caught off guard by the pain. It’s interesting about Spike. Why did he have remorse for assaulting Buffy? It’s weird that he does. I think it’s a part of his template as a romantic that he realized that action destroyed the vestiges of his relationship with her. He’s a vampire with some shred of humanity and capable of forming deep attachments. So while some may not consider what he feels is really love, it was a big enough influence to completely override his demonic nature to seek out and obtain a soul. I’m sure there’s academic work dedicated to making sense of his choice to do that given the vampire lore in the series.

[@invadertifxiii]

Exactly

[@Justinhulk]

also william the way he was when he was human. pure hearted, a soft boy poet, kinda philosopher and into poetry, clearly he was probably christian or a big believer in god, so william doing that makes sense to me idk

[@martophrenia]

Spike without soul didn't have any remorse for assaulting Buffy. At least it's never actually said in the show. But we do know that soulless creatures can't do selfless acts in this universe. He went out seeking his soul back, because he wanted Buffy back and we know how obsessive can Spike get. The only way to do it - is to get his soul back. They specifically showed us Spike calling Buffy a bitch, that doesn't sound like a guy feeling remorse.

[@Sytrylt]

@@martophrenia I agree with you. I believe that what we see when Spike is in chock, and remembers what he did (before leaving sunnydale) is not remorse. Not in the sense of human remorse, possible only if you have a soul, at least. I believe that what he felt what still selfish. He regretted what he did, because he knew what it ment for him and Buffy. And also because he finally saw she was right about him being a monster and that she would never trust and accept him this way. The real remorse came after the soul. When he is NOT insulting Buffy anymore, and knows, he did a monstruous thing. He is not putting the blame on her anymore "what did that bitch did to me ?". He is really remorsfull now.

[@martophrenia]

@@Sytrylt oh yeah, after getting his soul back he's remorseful as hell)

[@daviribeiro8997]

I readed that Spike is speaking no just to Buffy,but to God as well,that's why he looked up

[@3SailorMartin]

Actually the "ain't we in a soddin' engine" comment makes complete sense if you think about it: Spike refers to his soul as a "spark" and he and Buffy are in a chapel (thus an engine that deals in "sparks")

[@3SailorMartin]

Also when he looks up and says "it's what you wanted right?" It would make sense that he might be talking to God or Fate because of the surroundings

[@itsthatpixie]

Willows storyline is that of an addict. Yes, to magic but a spell wasn’t put in her to make her that way. She had autonomy is the process, it was a human descent, and it was a storyline with hints back in S4. You can love an addict but trust is earned. When someone has continually lied, hurt and in Willows case, killed to get her way, she can’t expect her friends to forget about it and not be uneasy. Willow has to show she is ok with recognising consequences and just because she can do something, doesn’t mean she should. As yet, she hasn’t been tested. She knows it, which is why she is afraid, and until she shows to herself and others she can say no, on the smallest of things, everyone will be uneasy. Imagine letting an addict straight out of recovery back in your home who had done everything Willow had. Most would struggle to not be immediately wary.

[@Nicamon]

However I don't get why she says that she's killed multiple people. She didn't. She only killed one.

[@Girl4Music]

@@Nicamon 2. Warren and Rack

[@Nicamon]

@@Girl4Music I keep forgetting him,but I've also never been sure if she had killed him or just sucked him dry temporarely.After all..she _didn't_ kill Giles.Anyway...the way she talks makes it seem like she killed _several_ people,not just a couple. But ok...it's more than just 1!:-P BUT...isn't Rack a demon?Why does he count?🤨

[@Girl4Music]

@@Nicamon Rack is a witch doctor. Very much human. Just very powerful. Like Willow. She sucked the life force out of him. She definitely killed him. What she took from Giles didn’t kill him but it was the intention. He said it was the only way to stop her. Why does Rack count? Even if he was a demon. You seem to think vampires/demons should count as people so you should answer that question for yourself. I also see vampires/demons as people. As sentient beings. But not as human. I also see animals as people. Again, not human. For me, being a person doesn’t necessarily mean you’re human. And being human doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a person.

[@minuette1752]

@@Nicamon Rack was human. He was a warlock.

[@boingo69]

It is so much fun watching you experience these episodes for the first time. I am so excited to see you finish this season out. There are so many twists and turns this season, and you are going to freak out for each. Lol. Can't wait.

[@littlemissvixen09]

Actually we do know what Angel was like after he got his soul (though maybe we know it from AtS, I'm not sure), we saw that he tried to go back to Darla and be with her again... Also, the awful stuff Spike was saying to Buffy at the Bronze was his 'costume', just like you said, because he didn't want to let her know about the soul, so he was trying to act like his soulless self, but obviously wasn't doing a very good job of it. That's why he was acting weird. + he was a bit crazy

[@centroid]

I have to agree with Xander here. Regardless of what we think of Xander leaving Anya at the altar, he is in no way responsible for her actions, not even a little bit. People who've been hurt don't get a free pass to hurt others who were uninvolved.

[@arekschneyer3802]

I adore all the Spike scenes in this episode. Spike... kinda becomes my favorite character.

[@kurtsnyder4752]

19:18 Jesus? Umm, not by a long shot. Though it appears some vampire vulnerability is waning, only sizzled a bit from the sustained contact with the cross.

[@lifelikelisa]

I think anyone can be forgiven, if they truly feel sorry, they change and they make amends but not everyone can forgive and that’s okay. Unfortunately, we kind of live in a world where people are shamed for being forgiving.

[@becca1189]

One can forgive without forgetting or trusting again. Forgiveness is a gift one gives oneself. It's unburdening oneself of negative emotions (anger, resentment, etc). The person(s) being forgiven don't even have to be aware of the fact that they've been forgiven. This is why there is no shame in it. It's something that's done for one's own mental health. Trusting someone who hasn't done the work necessary to become a decent person is unwise, but also not something to be ashamed of. We all make mistakes & it's difficult to cut ties with someone we love.

[@FeyPhantom]

@@becca1189 Thank you for saying this!! Too many people equate forgiving someone with condoning their actions, which it's not. I think that's why some people might shame others for being forgiving as the OP mentioned. But forgiveness is an internal thing that doesn't change what the person did or make it okay that they did it. Like you said, you can forgive someone without them ever knowing. That alone shows it's for yourself and not them.

[@valeriem.8112]

I think when he looks up in the church and he says: that’s what YOU wanted right? » he’s actually talking to God ( the first time he was asking Buffy, the second time might be god or something like that)

[@jakubport7361]

It's funny cause overall Spike in his soulless form was still a wet cigarette when compared to Angelus. Yes, he tried to rape Buffy, but let's not forget that Angelus was the embodiment of evil, no lines to cross. Even without soul, Spike was semi decent being capable of love.

[@Nicamon]

"Spike in his soulless form was still a wet cigarette when compared to Angelus."🤣I love that comparison!!!And I'm sure Spike would be ultra-pissed to hear that!😈

[@Girl4Music]

@@Nicamon Random person: “Hey, Spike. You’re a wet cigarette.” Spike: “😤”

[@Nicamon]

@@Girl4Music 🤭🤭🤭

[@METerrell]

The potential in the beginning was meant to be a reference to Alias. The first episode had the main character, Sydney Bristow had dyed her hair red to go on a mission & she was chased in it with similar music playing. The potential slayer also looks a bit like Jennifer Garner, who played Sydney. If you haven't seen the show, I recommend it. No supernatural elements to it, but it's still a very good series.

[@chrisandersen5635]

I think it might be an homage to the German film Run Lola Run as well. That’s what I thought of when it aired the first time around.

[@sirmoonslosthismind]

@@chrisandersen5635 i know the creator of _alias_ has been vocal about specifically doing that scene in _alias_ as a reference to _run lola run_ but i don't know which of the two properties inspired _buffy_ to do something similar.

[@HH-hd7nd]

20:40 Not everyone is the same - humans are different from each other an so are demons and vampires. Because of that some people change drastically when they become vampires (like Angel, Darla and even Dru) while others (like Spike) change very little. Not to mention that there are a lot of humans that are easily as evil as any demon.

[@Nicamon]

That's a better explanation than most of what I got in all this time trying to justify how much Souless Spike and Souled Spike are similar. But this still doesn't excuse why,then,Slayers are allowed to massacre vampires but not human serial killers.

[@itsthatpixie]

@@Nicamon because human is for the human world. It’s a case of absolute power and where do you draw the line. A serial killer, someone who kills once? Some who nearly killed someone? Buffy’s world is a supernatural one, she is equipped with the knowledge, strength and the dreams including the history of the slayers to fight that battle. That knowledge does not extend to become a judge, jury and executioner for the human world, they already have laws and processes in place for that. It would be extraordinarily arrogant of her to over rule already established laws. Here we don’t have the death penalty - for anything. That was a decision made requested by the people. Buffy would be running a totalitarian state, a global dictatorship. It’s not her place.

[@Nicamon]

@@itsthatpixie Buffy's world is supernatural,but killing is killing. How can killing a human serial-killer be wrong,but killing a vampire who has JUST resurrected and hasn't harmed anyone yet being right?People *LOVE* the moral and philosofical dilemmas in"Buffy"and yet *no one* ever brings *this one* up,neither in the show nor among the audience?!?🤨😵Not only that,but whenever *I* dare to do it,people just try to diminsh the problem and brush it away instead of seriously thinking about it and,possibly,admitting the show didn't think this through the moment it decided to make vampires and demons _more_ complex than they should have been in THIS specific kind of Universe!?🤨

[@HH-hd7nd]

@@Nicamon Slayers where created for a very specific purpose: To kill demons (including vampires). Human societies are very capable of dealing with their own criminals - the supernatural world is something different though. Slayers are not needed for that. The fight against other species is a fight for survival - the fight against serial killers is just catching criminals. That's a job for police forces (and their equivalents in older cultures), not for what is basically a maigcal super soldier program. Last but not least: The Slayers where created thousands of years ago under very different circumstances in a completely different society. It would be false to force modern day morals on older societies that don't exist anymore.

[@Nicamon]

@@HH-hd7nd "Slayers where created for a very specific purpose: to kill demons (including vampires)."Slayers were created by Watchers. And *we know* how much Buffy DOESN'T LIKE following the Average Watcher Rules.Giles is an exception.Generally speaking,Buffy *doesn't follow* the Watchers' Way.

[@Tsotmiam]

I think you are right about souled demons wanting to hide in thier old persona. Angel traveled with Darla Spike and Dru for a while after he got his soul. If you re-watch the scene after Spike kills his first Slayer you can see he has his soul at that time. Angel led the group away when Dru smelled fear(or something like that.) and wanted to check it out.

[@mimmo4762]

Spike with a soul is not William for the same reason Angel is not Liam. The human is gone, what remains is only the demon, albeit now tormented. Darla with a soul was still Darla, and so is Spike. Angel/Angelus is a special case, and I am inclined to think that theirs is more of a case of split personality than a soul problem.

[@becca1189]

Darla was human when she was brought back. No demon present. Just the memories...

[@mimmo4762]

@@becca1189 are you sure she was? 🤣She was not sure herself. The point was precisely that: it's open to interpretations. But she behaved, spoke, had all memories of and reconized herself (mostly) as Darla. Also, the "only the demon is left" from season one was clearly retconned, and as of now it's probably only a metaphorical transformation and not an actual different entity; so, again, how can you be so sure?

[@becca1189]

@@mimmo4762 Darla was a human being dying of syphilis. This is confirmed by by numerous doctors as well as Angel's guide in "The Trial". Then Dru turned her. What demon could be made into a vampire? Darla was confused (who wouldn't be) & questioning her nature (not her physical form). Having a soul doesn't equal being a good person. The show makes it perfectly clear that she was picking up where she left off (before she was turned). The Master turned her as she was dying of syphilis. Before Dru turned her again she had found peace with dying the way she should've the first time. As a mortal human. Darla's crisis earlier was purely existential. Joss Whedon's hallmark.

[@grife3000]

I was guessing that you would never forgive Spike, but it seems like you may have been swayed by "the monologue." I'm glad. Nice to see that you didn't write off "from beneath you it devours" to the monster-of-the-week Tremors worm. But of course the title works for that, AND it does still work for Buffy, who used it in "Fool for Love" so devestatingly.

[@WilliamLucas-ef6qc]

Anthony Head is so 6'1" of beautiful you feel like you're awake and on fire all the time ngl

[@killianlpc]

We have a similar start here to E1 this time in Frankfurt with another young woman being chased by the mysterious shrouded men, who we have seen before back in S3. 'From Beneath You It Devours' a phrase we hear again, Spike turns up again in Blue this time, maybe a subliminal message to show his soul has been restored with the change of colour. The strange ground being shook by some creature leads us on to another story. Xander obviously is attracted to Nancy who lost her dog. Dawn facing up to Spike is an interesting conversation. Interesting that Buffy says the word 'Champion' to Spike prophetic words again. When we eventually see the underground monster ( obviously a homage to the film Tremors ). We see Anya yet again reverting to her Demon days causing all this. Very funny scene when Nancy says 'is there anyone here that hasn't slept together'. When Anya senses Spike's soul has been restored all mayhem breaks loose in and old style bar room brawl. Spike says to Buffy 'up for another round on the balcony', Anya says all this started when you left me at the altar, but Xander points out she can't keep using this excuse forever. When Spike does catch the creature he goes to kill him, but he turns back human so Spike get the neural pain again. Great acting form James Marsters having some kind of mental episode, but he can sense what is to come, and repeats 'from beneath you it devours'. We can see Spike is having a serious mental breakdown here, the restoration of his soul is now causing him the type of pain and mental anguish Angel had to go through. The final scene where Spike is draped across the crucifix is brilliantly done as he is burning and Buffy looks on. Such incredible groundwork being laid here for S7, and of course linking back to all strands of previous Seasons. This is why this is such a brilliant show.

[@borgtennis]

Spike was talking to God when he looked up.

[@HuntingViolets]

You know, Giles, you could contact Buffy and see whether Willow will be welcome.

[@roll14tideroll]

Someone made a comment on Reddit that Angel was intentionally acting extremely different from his two other personalities to distance himself

[@moviereviews4life]

Spike with and without a soul doesn't act that different because he had years to by choice do good. First the chip acted as a muzzle but eventually he began to care or at least be selfless. With Liam, Angel and Angelus are different because Angelus never cared, the soul was forced onto him. And we do see on Angel why Angelus is the way he is when he returns (won't go into detail if you're watching Angel)

[@moviereviews4life]

Anya became a vengeance demon because she has always been a bit immature in het nature. She was hurt and wanted to make other men hurt, something I feel other women would like to do. But it was her choice, Xanders said sorry and has tried to make it up to her and while she doesn't need to forgive him, she can't put that choice on him. She needs to grow up and own her mistakes. Cordelia eventually grew up due to her experiences, especially after Doyle gave her the premonition power, now its her turn.

[@12chapin]

Hello 👋🏻. That music at the beginning sounds a bit like the one Angel dance to😆

[@dfunkt2291]

From beneath you, it devours...

[@Girl4Music]

Again - only when he is ensouled is she kind to him, supports him, believes in him. She’s always seen him for what he really is but could never let herself trust it. She says that exact sentiment before he tries to rape her. And okay, yeah, maybe she had reason to not trust him and he proved it when he tried to do that. But at the same time - odds are he never would have if she didn’t treat him like dirt in the first place. Odds are he could have been a better man if she was a better woman. I’m not saying it’s her fault that he attempted to rape her. That’s all on him. But it is her fault that she ever let the toxicity between them build up so much that he would ever result to such action. The show never lets us forget that Spike is soulless but they have no issue with letting us forget Buffy isn’t. And yet she still treats him as if she was all because he is. Her condition for treating him like a human being - like a man - requires him to be ensouled. I don’t like that in order for her to actually believe in his goodness he had restore his soul when he would have done just fine without one. All it required was for his external moral compass to actually give a shit about him enough to facilitate that change and that growth. He was capable of it. I know damn well he was. I refuse to believe that he couldn’t turn good without a soul. And I think the show would have made a stronger statement if that was what happened. If he was the one vampire that could do it. But no… Joss wanted his stupid canon lore to remain. Even though it made no damn sense by that point 😤 A soul is not what makes a person a person. It’s what gives that person the ability to choose good or evil. What gives them the distinction from right or wrong. It’s their free will. Their internal moral compass. It’s not who they actually are. Spike was capable of making good and selfless choices without a soul because of his love for Buffy and Dawn and Joyce allowed him a proxy soul in the meanwhile. External influence always determined which way the pendulum swung for him. He couldn’t do it on his own and I acknowledge that. But he could do it. That matters. I hate how the show builds him up just to let him fall right back down again based on the excuse that he doesn’t have a soul. I think it’s bloody insulting. You should never show that he was capable of goodness in the first place if that’s the fate you would ultimately choose for him in the end. I absolutely call bullshit. These parallels mean nothing to me. All it shows me is that Buffy’s love for Spike was conditional. His wasn’t. He sacrificed for her. He sacrificed for her so fucking hard that he was turning into someone that appeared to have a soul. That behaved as if he had a will of his own even if he could never quite control that will on his own. Without help and guidance and compassion. It doesn’t matter. The point is that he was doing it when any other vampire couldn’t. Didn’t possess enough humanity within them to be able to do it. Especially Angel. And look - I hate to compare them all the time but I really do think it says a lot that Spike practically behaves just like ensouled Angelus does even without a soul. No, he’s no angel. But even Angel was not an angel without a little help from his friends. I stand by the belief that Spike didn’t require a soul. He just required better company. People to be his friends and Joyce and Dawn were the proof of this. It wasn’t just all about Buffy and I hate the argument that it is. That he would never have been this way with either Joyce or Dawn if it never meant any ties to her. I hate how his love for Buffy is always used against him. All it required for him to become a good man was for someone to believe in him. Really believe in him as the person he was already showing himself to be. Which was a person with the ability to choose good or evil even if he never possessed an internal moral compass. And that’s all a soul really gives or does for you anyway. There are some human characters in this show with souls that don’t even deserve to be called a person. Then there are some non-human characters in this show without souls that act like better people than the aforementioned. And Spike is one of them. And then there’s characters - both ensouled and soulless - both human and non-human - that are so morally grey that you can’t even predict what they’ll do at all. And the show is BETTER for having this. For blurring the lines between good and evil. It’s a much more compelling, stronger and substantial show with all of this blurriness than it ever was being clear cut GOOD VS EVIL. It’s really fucking sad that Whedon hated that his show was better when it dropped the strict soul lore. That it had a bigger impact without it. And the reason is that he couldn’t stand to be wrong. He couldn’t just let it be the way it turned out to be because it made him seem like he was without power. There’s your answer as to why Spike was fucked over.

[@Girl4Music]

Yeah, fear and anxiety are not the same thing.

[@Buffy8Fan]

Buffy and Spike in the church is a great moment. I love the fact that Spike doesn't just come back and say I have a soul. He is willing to be judged by the group for what he did, whether in the bathroom or any other moment without a soul. He couldn't do that before he had a soul, no matter how much of an enigma people like to say he is. What a lot of people don't get, is that what Anya is doing when yelling at Xander is valid. She isn't yelling at him because he made her a vengeance demon again. She is stating that without him she had no ties to the group and the only place she felt like she belonged was D'Hoffryn's vengeance demons. The core four group is so strong in friendship they don't realize that many times they push people into other group and/or away: Cordelia and Angel went to LA, Oz left town, Riley went to the jungle with the army, Tara had no friends besides Dawn away from being Willow's girlfriend, Jenny was a depressed teacher, Wesley was a rogue demon hunter before ending up in LA with Angel and Cordelia, and Faith assumed The Mayor was a better option after losing so much trust in the Scoobies. In Anya's case it wasn't Xander making her choose to be a vengeance demon. She made the chose when she realized that without Xander she wasn't a part of any other friendship in the group and therefore felt D'Hoffryn was the only other place she belonged. Xander saying, "Sooner or later that excuse stops working" is a bad way to phrase him judging her decision (if that's what he's doing). Anya has a right to be upset with him whether she became a demon or not and his line just shows him judging her rather than understanding why she felt she had to. Another misstep and lost opportunity for Xander on fixing his mistakes. That doesn't mean Anya was right in becoming a demon again, but I understand her hurt more than I understand Xander not talking to Anya (or anyone else) for months before a demon uses his fears to lie to him about a future that likely won't ever happen (especially when he never talks to anyone about said cold feet issues).

[@MarkusR144]

Hard disagree on Anya. First, it's not Xander's fault that Anya was never really friends with Buffy and Willow, that they were only hanging out with her because she was with Xander and owned the Magic Box, which was their hangout. Willow always actively disliked Anya and Buffy is very neutral towards her, but that has nothing to do with Xander. Xander only ever tried to include her with his friends. She's not even really talking about Buffy and Willow here, she's talking about her old demon friends and blaming them not being friends with her on the wedding falling apart. If they were her friends, why would they stop being friends after that? I mean if your friend gets stood up at the altar, why would you stop being friends because of that? Why would that be a reason to not like someone? Plus they are demons, it should be the other way around, becoming human and marrying a human should be the thing that drives them away. Becoming a demon again and "coming back to the fold" should get her closer to her demon friends than she has been for years being human. Why is Xander leaving her causing her to not make any new demon friends? Xander can't control that, it's on her. Xander is right, she is using him leaving her at the altar as an excuse for everything she feels is wrong in her life and that was like 6 months ago. Sure, maybe some demons don't want to deal with the drama and awkwardness right after it happens, but that can't be the reason now. It is an excuse and it is gonna stop working.

[@Buffy8Fan]

@@MarkusR144 I agree that its not Xander's fault or her old demon friends fault she wasn't friends with anyone else in the opposite groups. I never said it was. I said Anya had a valid reason to be upset with Xander whether she chose to be a demon or not, and that because she wasn't friends with any of The Scoobies, it was easy for D'Hoffryn to pull her back in and easy for her to assume it's where she belongs after Olaf cheated, and after Xander left her at the alter. It doesn't make it Xander's fault she is a demon again, but it is his fault he never talked to her about his cold feet to the point of a demon taking advantage of said cold feet aka telling Xander what could happen. And as of this episode, because he still hasn't talked to Anya, it's still an excuse she can use, whether she's a demon or not.

[@MarkusR144]

@@Buffy8Fan Still hasn't talked to her? When he came back the first thing he asked was where Anya was so he could talk to her. And when they did talk, all she wanted to do was to literally curse him and get his friends to curse him for her. He wanted to stay together after the failed wedding, she didn't. Which is reasonable, but her choice nonetheless. Besides, it's been months since then. What could he possibly say right now that he hasn't already said that could change anything for Anya? I get that there's always more to say, but why would she even listen to anything he has to say, she didn't want to hear it before and she still doesn't want to hear anything from him now. At this point Xander thinks she wants nothing to do with him, it would be worse if he was still creeping around trying to get her back after being told no. Why does he have to change her life for her, she's her own person.

[@Buffy8Fan]

@@MarkusR144 Any argument from either of them means there was no talking, only yelling. Perhaps Anya just learned how to communicate from Xander in that respect. He needed to give her space and understand her side of things before a true talk can happen. So if they are yelling, time still needs to happen on both their ends. It not about changing Anya's life. Its about explaining why he left her at the alter while she is understanding enough to listen (or why he wants to wait on marriage in terms of saying something before the wedding day). It's her issue if she doesn't listen to him, and his issue if he doesn't give her enough time or doesn't say anything at all aka before the wedding. But either way doesn't negate the fact that he had four months of needing to talk to her before the wedding (which he should of done). And none of that negates my other comments. I think Anya was correct when she says in _The Gift_ why she believes he's proposing. She was right and not only hadn't he thought it through, but he isn't allowing her time or talk to her when he needed to aka before the wedding.

[@simonfrederiksen104]

God I love that episode

[@robertmckenna3994]

The difference between Angel and Spike is that Angelus was cursed with a soul, Spike fought like hell to get his.

[@MrSupertallblackman]

Angel fight like hell for redemption every episode.

[@robertmckenna3994]

@@MrSupertallblackman how much redemption would he fight for if that soul were removed?

[@MrSupertallblackman]

​​@@robertmckenna3994 The circumstances are not the same. If Spike never got the chip he would not be in this position to begin with. I have no idea what Angelus would be like if he were in Spike position seasons 4-7.

[@robertmckenna3994]

@@MrSupertallblackman he would have lived his life as manipulative monster. Tricking people to gain a small level of enjoyment by destroying themselves and those they love. A bit like Spike in The Yoko Factor, but Angelus would be better at it.

[@martophrenia]

He fought like hell for his soul to win Buffy, that's how much he was obsessed with her, he didn't do it to become a better person.

[@chardtomp]

The second "It's what you wanted, right?" was addressed to God as they are in a church.

[@mparantha]

that speech at the end is still one of my fall time faves. I love going back and watching it.

[@Hirius]

Good reaction !

[@lukesweeting1686]

Spike was never really cursed with a soul like angel was I think that's why he doesn't feel as bad about the 200 year spree as much. Also the few years with just the chip problem changed home somewhat

[@kyleellis1825]

Yep. Angel's curse makes him constantly relive the horrors of Angelus (so he doesn't get happy.). Spike was reward with a soul, it's more of a merger with his human half. We don't actually even know if Angel is the same soul that Liam had as a human, or if it's the same soul every other time he get's cursed. Vampires get the memories of the body they possess, why can't the soul get memories? It would explain why each time, Angel has a few seconds of "What the heck is going on?"

[@glazierblue573]

"Its what you wanted, right?" The secind time, as they were in a church, then learning on a cross, i am assuming he was talking to God!

[@Talisguy]

Not a big fan of season 7 overall, but it honestly gets off to a pretty strong start. I wouldn't rate the first two episodes as all-time favourites or anything, but they quickly and efficiently build on the events of season 6 and establish Dawn's new relationship with Buffy, which feels like a very believable evolution from the events of season 6. She's trying to keep some distance between Buffy and her social life after the events of last episode, but she's still making sure to emphasise that she's happy for Buffy - it comes off like she's aware how bad things got for Buffy mentally last year and is really trying to encourage positive growth. I really don't love certain later developments, but the early episodes are generally good at balancing early-show wacky high school horror and monster of the week plots with this new air of maturity and slight melancholy, like the cast are slowly readjusting to not being constantly miserable after an absolutely brutal year.

[@Nicamon]

When I rewatched the last season recently I discovered I forgot pretty much EVERYTHING of the 1st part... ...probably because the only things of the season I was able to enjoy were Kennedy x Willow 🖤❤ and Faith 🤎 and they both come *criminally late!*

[@Johaufs]

Oddly enough I think season 7 is really great until Giles shows up back in Sunnydale and with season 6 I think it’s great until Giles leaves Sunnydale. Just a very strange situation lol

[@allocat5867]

I didn't think this episode was that confusing, idk. I guess it has been a while since I first saw it 20 years ago, but...

[@HuntingViolets]

Buffy and Xander haven't slept together. Anya and Buffy haven't slept together.

[@peterswift5703]

Doublemeat palace was buffy best job

[@valeriem.8112]

Spike with a soul feels he deserves getting the crap beat out of him- that’s why he’s acting like a jerk , and not telling anyone about his soul - he doesn’t want to be pitied, he wants to be punished…

[@Maca494]

why is he acting kind of the same way?? uhhh no soul spike was the closest you could get to him being a decent man without a soul...a soul wouldnt change him so dramatically. Angelus was just MURDER

[@peaceisnature]

Spike felt such disgust at what he did to Buffy he wanted to reclaim his soul to be a better person. He fough to get his soul back. Angel had it forced on him. Spike definitely was stronger and more noble than Angel.

[@MrSupertallblackman]

What an absolutely dismissive way of looking at it. The circumstances between the two are completely different. Despite being tortured constantly because that's the cure is Angel still goes out of his way to help people because he believes it's right. As of right now Spike only helps people that he cares about or get something from.

[@peaceisnature]

@@MrSupertallblackman And Angel only started helping people when he started helping Buffy... After he first saw Buffy when she was 15... and he was attracted to her... And Angel had years of moping before he did anything productive.

[@martophrenia]

No, he didn't do it for any kind of noble reason lol. How am I sure? He called Buffy a bitch. He was obsessed with Buffy and wanted her all to himself, and the only way to get her while still being a vampire that he knew about - is getting his soul back. Soulless cannot be noble in this universe, that's just a fact. They can have feelings and sometimes even act "good", but at the end of the day they still are soulless and selfish creatures.

[@theprodigal]

Spike's arc is just bad writing. It means that if Buffy gets her minge out for long enough a vampire can 'catch feels' meaning she should be shagging vampires and not staking them. Absolute ludicrous storytelling.

[@becca1189]

@@MrSupertallblackman Soulless Spike "only helps people that he cares about or get something from". Spike "as of right now" is a complete wreck. He doesn't even know what he's doing or what's going on around him half of the time.

[@TenebrousFilms]

He was looking up, while in a church. Who else would he be talking to.

[@invadertifxiii]

I really really dislike dawn here when she was on about buffy not telling her stuff

[@ferrisulf]

Xander dodged a bullet. Nancy barely blinked when her dog got eaten. Psychopath. He'd better of sticking with demons. James and Sarah killed that last scene.

[@emmabenson9572]

I would be a mess if a dog was eaten.

[@Zso-VIII]

The snarky interjecting was really dialled up to eleven in this one.

[@zemoxian]

I don’t gamble. But, I’d put down money that after this episode there was some Spike/Xander fiction generated

[@The_One_In_Black]

I'm sure by the time this episode came out, there was already a plethora.

[@bellatronics]

Yeah There was tons of Spander fic right from season 2. But especially, more so from season 4 when Spike was living in Xander's basement for a bit. This little eye contact in the scene in this episode was a nod from the writers in recognition of all the Spander fic/fans out there, rather than being the start of it.

[@SarahTheBloody]

Actually that look was "a wink" to the Spander shippers, they were already one of the biggest ships in the show by the time this aired. :)

[@DanielOrme]

There were whole sites dedicated to non-canon ships. Name any combination and you could find stories for them.

[@ibgvox]

Joss rewrote and redirected the church scene. Marsters explained it: There was a scene between Buffy and me in a church, and I think I ended up draping myself over a cross. I was very, very sad. [It was] a very dramatic scene. [Joss Whedon] didn’t direct it. He saw the footage and came up to me and he said, “Okay, James, I’ve got good news and bad news, what do you want?” I said, “Well, give me the bad news first.” He said, “Okay. That scene that was so important, your whole career-making scene? That sucks. It’s horrible. You kind of overacted. It’s not your fault. It was the direction. But it’s just so on the nose, and it’s just cringe-worthy. Do you want the good news?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “Okay, I’m going to rewrite it, I’m going to direct it, I’m going to save this, it’s going to be right. Don’t worry.”

[@Girl4Music]

One wonders why he even hired any other writers or directors if he was just going to do it all himself in the end.

[@ibgvox]

@@Girl4Music Because ha couldn't do it by himself. A single episode involved several days to write, 8 por prep, 8 for shooting and 2-4 for editing. And there was always 3 eps in different stages of work (writing, shooting and post prod) and every episode needed the showrunner to say yay or nay to every step (Joss did it with Greenwalt as his second seasons 1 to 3 and then Noxon). And, since Buffy S4, he had 2 shows, and since Buffy 7, he had 3. So he needed, badly, writers and directors, even day-to-day showrunners, to help him. But it was his duty as showrunner or overall chief to rewrote or redirected something if it wasn't right. Noxon and Minear did tons of uncredited rewrites too.

[@Girl4Music]

@@ibgvox I was being rhetorical. The rewrites and redirects are “correcting” something he thought wasn’t right. They were not necessary. They were the mark of a man in power that made his staff feel like shit in order to prove he had power and was in control of the whole operation.

[@ibgvox]

@@Girl4Music We are here with plenty of fans saying the church scene is magnificent and thats a proof he was right. He never rewrote or redirected if it wasn't necessary and when he did he never took credit (like, speaking of Season 7, every Buffy scene in Conversations with Dead People). That was his job as showrunner and overall chief. With many of the crew working again with him many times I guess some of them were ok working for him (even for The Nevers). Others didn't.

[@Girl4Music]

@@ibgvox I’m not saying it’s not a great scene. It is. Whedon’s work when he is sole writer and directer is above and beyond. I tend to like his episodes the best. But what I’m saying is that he has a tendency to undermine his workers in the way where they might spend a lot of time and energy on their own work and he just comes in and changes it because it’s “not right” in his eyes.

[@CoasterTrax]

I think its a wasted opportunity to not let this girl stay longer in this season and somehow develope the relationship between her and xander, until Anya comes across and wants revenge on both. Would be such a cool side plot

[@TheMrsWatcher]

Yeah, it kinda pisses me off a bit that she walks off, disgusted with all these people who just helped her, saved her life, and rescued her ex from being a giant worm and getting him help after being impaled.

[@CoasterTrax]

@@TheMrsWatcher thats fucking true

[@shaynaformity1384]

I don't think Spike was trying to get Buffy to kill him. Angel said at one point that he's constantly fighting the demon within himself - the demon doesn't go away when a soul is present - it was still there to fight Eyghon back in The Dark Age in season 2. Remember how awfully the demon Angelus taunted Buffy after they had sex? This wasn't ensouled Spike, this was the vampiric demon temporarily winning until Spike got it back under wraps. I think Spike was so worried that Buffy would find out about his soul that the demon was able to get the upper hand for a bit. Then he decided he had to tell Buffy and just deal with his shame, so that the demon wouldn't overpower him again. It's the demon in charge who says "get it hard... girl doesn't want to be serviced. Because there's no spark," which reminder weakened the demon and allowed the soul to emerge and confess. The second time he says, "It's what YOU wanted, right?" he's looking up in a church, which indicates he was talking to God.

[@PJAvenger]

I've been told that I'm too negative. Say something positive PJ. That's all I hear. So hear me now. Lexi is wonderful! I love me some Lexi! Mein Gott Lexi! Liebe! That sounds positive, am I right?

[@babs3241]

This one always gets me. A pretty mediocre episode, but then those last five minutes... holy God, that church scene was amazing. It's interesting that Spike seems to have some religious sensibilities buried in the old William personality, and is looking for grace. Spike has spent the last couple of years forced out of his vampire life and his old personality was starting to surface more via memories and so on, so I think that's why there's more of a continuum with him.

[@Nicamon]

14:30 - 14:34 *That's what I've been saying for 1 full goddamn seasons+7 episodes by now!!!!!* That Souled Spike is *not different enough* from Souless Spike and *that's* why he makes no sense to me as a character!!!>O< 06:41 - 06:48 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 *DAMN IT!!!* In Italian she said:"Have you met your predecessor?"who was technically SNYDER so that line doesn't land the same way because yes,he was eaten too,but not by his students!!! 07:14 - 07:18 I don't care about Giles,I wanna see *Willow!* ❤ 10:06 - 10:11 *Actually* since ep 5x18.X-[ 10:30 - 10:35 😈 10:37 - 10:55 😎🔥 13:11 - 13:22 🤣💙🤍 14:41 - 14:45 Or both. ...Think of the praying mantis. 18:53 - 19:01 Yeah...poor thing.🤍I can't not hate him,but poor him.

[@MrSupertallblackman]

I dont like the narrative that Spike is more noble because he fought for his soul and Angel didn't. The circumstances of those events are completely different, they're completely different people and Angel fights for redemption every episode.

[@itsthatpixie]

In S2 the judge can evaporate vampires because they have some form of humanity in them. He says there is zero humanity in Angelus so can’t kill him. Angelus lack of humanity means he is completely incapable of any kind of human feeling. Spike can. Angelus would never have felt guilt over Buffy but relish it, Spike’s bit of humanity meant he did. Angel says the demon does reflect who there were as humans. Angel was an unpleasant human who took advantage of those around him, Spike was a poet who loved deeply. They are two sides of the same coin. It’s just Angels horrors make his nobility appear even greater as it’s further apart from where he came from. Angel fought his good side, Spike gives into it immediately. And this is despite being tortured by the first evil, only just having his soul returned, whispering him to cause pain, he hasn’t.

[@Justinhulk]

that's true, but Spike is still more noble than angel, because he's more good

[@martophrenia]

@@Justinhulkin what world is Spike more good than Angel? What does it even mean?

[@martophrenia]

Yeah, people acting as if Spike did it to become a better man, which he didn't. The only reason he fought for his soul is to get Buffy back. That's was the ONLY reason. And that's not me dunking on Spike. Buffyverse has established rules. Soulless creatures cannot act selflessly, there's always some kind of selfish goal that they're pursuing.

[@itsthatpixie]

@@martophrenia the writers put it. “I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person’ - Joss. and he is. Angel is actually quite a two dimensional guy. He’s stuck in his way. Spike however can recognise what he has done, not only fully accepts who he was, is willing to change, but not whine about it. He is much more accepting of the grey areas in life, far more self aware, and as a result has greater potential to help. True Spikes reasons for getting a soul is selfish and Buffy. Not sure where you are up to but he still has plenty of progression to come. Neither are good guys re Buffy. They tried to give Buffy a ‘good’ bf, and the fans revolted.