ODYSSEUS OF ITHACAAA! | Keep Your Friends Close/Ruthlessness - Epic: The Musical | Reaction/Analysis

[@DaxonDarling]

Drowning at sea was considered one of the worst ways to die in Greek mythology… because your body couldn’t be retrieved.. which makes this even darker

[@officialmortius]

:anguish:

[@justanormalpeeps3938]

​@@officialmortius :Pain:

[@drcubeface]

@@justanormalpeeps3938 :depression:

[@assemhassan6360]

​@@drcubeface :saddness:

[@doggo-bn4vg]

@@assemhassan6360 :hurt:

[@elfbreath]

Another parallel I love in AnniFlamma’s Ruthlessness: Poseidon as a horse saying to Odysseus “I am your darkest moment”. Odysseus is the one who came up with the idea for the Trojan Horse, and he regrets doing it. In his mind he was dishonorably slaughtering sleeping men, and it haunts him still.

[@BrandonVout]

The Trojan Horse was also masquerading as an offering to Poseidon, which is why the Trojans brought it into his temple. His crew also did nothing to honor Poseidon before they left Troy. They’d been riding on unearned goodwill for a while before Poseidon drew a line at blinding his son being the final insult.

[@anniefemmas5097]

​@@BrandonVout SHIT! Ody should have really thought about it

[@Spectralyzed]

​@@BrandonVout Which is why he says "I've been so gracious, and yet you hurt the son of mine-". He'd allowed them safe passage on the seas even after using his image to defeat the Trojans, and then they went on and not only blinded Polyphemus, but Odysseus also felt the need to rub it in while also exposing his true identity in the process.

[@amyhurst4485]

@@BrandonVout Additionally, horse imagery is arguably another thing that Poseidon has rivalry with Athena over. Athena is sometimes titled 'Hippia' ('of horses') and is credited with inventing the chariot, bit and bridle - So if we credit Poseidon with creating horses (which is one version of the 'who gets Athens' competition), or at least fathering a lot of them, we can view Athena as having essentially 'tamed' Poseidon's creation. With regards to the Trojan horse, in the Posthomerica and the Aeneid, when the Greeks planted it at Troy, with it went Sinon (a Greek who feigned desertion), to persuade the Trojans to take it as an offering to Athena to replace the Palladium. Additionally, Aeolus (Hippotades - "the Reiner of Horses") is typically portrayed as a king (with a wife and 12 kids) who functions as ruler of the those Amenoi, who are (in these versions) his divine horses... Which is a really nice bit of irony here. I think that might have been considered a bit too much horse imagery for the musical to go with. XD

[@feistsorcerer2251]

At least when I was learning about the Illiad and Odyssey in school we were taught the idea for the Trojan Horse actually came from Poseidon, and Odysseus further slighted him by claiming credit and that they had won the war without divine intervention.

[@presleighe8126]

The whole white thing over telemacus's eyes is just bc Odysseus has been gone so long he doesn't know what his son actually looks like its not heinous lmao

[@karnege101]

odysseus has 12 ships with 50 men each (600 men) Polyphemus killed 7 from the main ship and Poseidon sank the other 11 ships leaving 43 on ody's flagship

[@KingsBard]

Ooh, thank you for the math, Phem killing seven of the main crew makes sense.

[@Zach2003]

At first I thought you meant fandom ships as in relationships and was really confused 😂

[@kittycatzuka]

A fun little detail is that 11 is also the total amount of "Captain!"s and "Ruthlessness is mercy upon our-"s we get as Poseidon is sinking the ships.

[@Staz_Pizzazz]

@@kittycatzukaidk if that’s fun😀 /j

[@Fenntic]

It’s 44 left on the ship Poseidon counts old Elpenor as a dead man before he dies, as he falls from the roof of circes while asleep in a drunken stupor!

[@rachelong3755]

The little guys are called "winions!" Also, Telemachus' face is scratched out because he was just a baby when Odysseus left (remember when he compares him to Hector's infant son in "Just a Man"?), so Odysseus doesn't even know what his own son looks like :( At the end of "Keep Your Friends Close," Aeolus warns the crew that they are heading to the "land of the giants," so the background vocals from "Ruthlessness" are being sung by those giants, called the Laestragonians. So far, I haven't seen any artists who have actually depicted the Laestrygonians in their animatics. In addition to reprising "I am your darkest moment," the last "remember me" from Poseidon is also an echo of what Odysseus said to Polyphemus.

[@Gacha_Got_Arsorned]

Interesting, I never noticed that last “remember me” was a callback

[@animacaodeumamador1006]

yes and those parts of just a man was poseidon's doing, using his godly powers to remind odysseus of his past mistakes, truly ruthless...

[@beckjoy3778]

I am so glad someone mentioned the Laestrygonians 'cause even if they don't get that much attention in the novel, they are the ones who get the highest body count!

[@halfknight2310]

wait so the voices who echo poseidon are the giants? the deep voices in the background? I thought it was the whole "gods can make backup singers thing""

[@rachelong3755]

@halfknight2310 In many of Jay's pre-release snippets of Ruthlessness, he captions the echo as "Laestrygonians." It is possible he may have changed his intentions though.

[@colbystevens4950]

You'll also notice that Odysseus. Never actually apologizes. He doesn't say I'm so sorry or we're sorry. He just Deflex around it with words.

[@dragonstouch1042]

I feel like either way they were screwed because Odysseus would not be sincere in that apology

[@roanekanota1199]

I think Odysseus was sincere, but Poseidon line about naivity and hopefulness is his way of saying "You're a fool for believing me, now die"

[@garabatosxd]

To be fair, he shouldn't be sorry

[@somedudewatchintv5297]

​@@roanekanota1199that line can be taken at least 2 ways. There's what you said but he could also be speaking to himself saying he was foolish to expect this man to learn or give an apology.

[@roanekanota1199]

​@@somedudewatchintv5297That's true. At least, Odysseus didn't out right lie to a god (because he would have lied by saying sorry) I love the fact that one song can lead to multiple interpretations

[@Tioko]

I just noticed recently and I can’t stop thinking about it: after the lines “A Greek who reeks of false righteousness - that’s what I hate!” the piano comes back for a while. And later when he sings “so close your heart, the world is dark”, there’s the piano again. Because Poseidon is echoing what Athena was saying. Her lessons. Maybe Athena is even listening in, like “see? That’s what I was talking about.”

[@z2yn]

I mean, Poseidon is her uncle despite of their rivalry - He's one of the big three and the original six. Heck, the oldest version of Poseidon was the ruler instead of Zeus, as the civilization before the Hellenistic Greece worshipped cathonic Gods - Poseidon was ruler of the underworld, sea and earthquakes.

[@SleepyHollowKnight]

Ohhh I didn’t notice that, it’s so smart!

[@Blueareo1257]

Hi I can kinda confirm about Athena’s piano motif in the background jorge confirms it in a tictok with more depth and explanation so I would definitely check his tictok to double but your definitely on point with her piano i believe 😊 Edit: I also believe she is listening into their conversation/fight coz she literally told odyssey pretty much the same thing Poseidon and is either A: listening too make sure he gets the point across or B: she doesn’t want to see him hurt by Poseidon or C: all the above lol everyone has a different view tho 😊

[@Tioko]

@@Blueareo1257 I don’t have TikTok, though. But it’s nice to have confirmation :)

[@AnonEMouse-ls7fp]

I 100% agree and have always said that Athena was there watching. And when it comes in at other points in the song means she co-signs exactly what Poseidon was saying. That also means that she was 100% fine with what happened to Odysseus's crew. Wisdom can be pretty ruthless.

[@helenorvana]

"Odysseus have you ever thought for 6 milliseconds before doing something?" Well he did spend the course of a very fucked up lullaby deciding to drop a baby off a wall, and has regretted it ever since. Maybe that's why he's not stopping to think things over now

[@officialmortius]

That’s… huh. That’s a very good point 😆

[@speedy01247]

yeah its almost like he may have actually done the wrong thing there. (it probably would end up with his death had he not, but still odds are he would have made it home without that on his conscious impairing his decisions)

[@bradleybarnett1469]

​@@speedy01247 Honestly, it was war. If he was told everyone who fought with him and everyone he loved would die unless he killed the baby, it was the necessary choice. Needs of the many over needs of the few

[@dragansnyder2786]

​@@speedy01247we've been shown how messed up the gods are in this musical and the kingpin of Mount Olympus was literally staring him in the face telling him to drop the baby off the wall, he may have been mainly talking about consequences that the child would bring on him in the future if he survived, but at least to me it seems like if he had said no then the gods would have made his life a living hell (which they kind of did anyway, but in the timeline where he says no to them right away you can imagine them intentionally inflicting every one of these pains upon him, because as it stands most of it is just God politics they're not mad about anything he actually did, Poseidon isn't actually mad about what happened to his son, he just doesn't want to look like a puss in front of the other gods, Zeus didn't actually want to murder odysseus's crew he just had to do something because Helios was breathing down his neck, and I don't know maybe Calypso was just horny) I hope that wasn't too confusing, because I meant to get across the point that if he had said no to them, then they would have intentionally made Odysseus suffer whereas in our timeline they made him suffer to keep up appearances)/, Poseidon is the only one who may have actually been mad about what happened to his son, but even then he doesn't murder Odysseus outright, he just screws around with the weather, despite the fact that he killed over 500 of his men, not actually attempting to take the life of the person who blinded your son just screams "I am extracting a blood price from you because it is what is demanded of me but I will actually not take your blood because I don't want to do it, I'm only killing 500 of your men so that the other gods won't bully me"

[@apossiblyhereticalalphaleg3595]

@@speedy01247 Personally, I don't think Odysseus' odds become much better if he pisses off Zeus before so much as leaving Troy.

[@bethanyjackson2719]

The survivors amounted to only the men on Odysseus' ship. Also, when Poseidon was drowning the fleet and all the men were crying "Captain!" The melody of the captains is the same melody from the beginning that was chanting "Poseidon". And that melody is the "Danger is Near" motif.

[@joshbarlow3991]

the motif is also in Polyphemus after Odysseus says "It's almost too perfect" as well as in the horse and the infant before he starts talking to Zeus

[@bethanyjackson2719]

@joshbarlow3991 looking for the danger is near motif is one of my favorite things. It's also in The Horse and the Infant right after Odysseus yells "Attack!"

[@roanekanota1199]

And it is in "Warrior of the Mind" when Odysseus says "show yourself"

[@bethanyjackson2719]

@roanekanota1199 I never caught that one. Gotta go listen to Warrior of the Mind real quick.

[@bethanyjackson2719]

@roanekanota1199 Okay, that is the coolest thing. It really casts their dynamic in a new light!

[@josefinagonzalezdamico4538]

Worst part, Ithaca was just on sight when they opened the bag, so he literally almost succed Also, Poseidon never intended to let them live, he just wanted to see him humilated, bc in case you haven't noticed, Odysseus fatal flaw is hubris/pride. Also Ody technically never apologized, just excused his actions, he tried to bluff, to do what Poseidon asked without actually doing it, using his wits (you rely on wit, and poeple die on it), you can see it in how he phrased everything, and how the animatic shows him smiling, it's definitely not an Im innocent smile, more like I got you now, fall for my trap/lie. He always looked for the "smart" way out- didn't really work against the god who no matter what wanted to see him dead.

[@akaittou]

The English word "apology" comes from Greek roots apo + logos, which can be more direcly translated as "story of reason" or "reasonable explanation", which means that as a Greek, Odysseus very much DID apologise to the best of his ability, but as Poseidon himself said: "I want to see you bleed, I need to make your drown, but first..." - the god of the ocean isn't known as the most capricious and vengeful of all olympians for nothing.

[@speedy01247]

I think had he been more willing to trust his second to watch it and been more open with him it could have went better. (of course the counter is he may have opened it earlier) honestly its at least partly on his second for allowing them to open the bag.

[@kkTeaz]

​@@speedy01247boy do I have a story to tell you...

[@phoenix_songbird]

Tbh was probably better that it happened at sea Vs at home, 500 men Vs ithica🤷

[@allymaryantonette6003]

​@@akaittoua reasonable explanation? Based on lies as ' we took no pleasure in his pain', which poseidon knows is false, because oddysseus took the time to gloat and reveal his name? No matter how you frame it, Oddysseus didn't apologise proper. Because he was prideful, and thinks reasonable doesn't need to mean sincere, and has the gall to play that game with a god. With an already enraged poseidon, the nerve of the man!. Is pure hubris in full exposure there.

[@cassandrehouze7485]

The parallel of Poseidon holding the infant while talking about his son can also work with the line "a greek who reeks of false righteousness" cause Odysseus was all on his high horse not wanting to kill Polyphemus (which I do think would have been the right move if he hadn't revealed his name) but he couldn't spare any mercy for the infant who hadn't done anything wrong yet. That's why I could never be on Odysseus's side in his argument with Athena, even though I'm all for mercy and compassion. I, too, hate false righteousness 😅

[@Kamarovsky_KCM]

Hehehe "high horse"

[@missvnuna3623]

"You reveal your name, then you let him live." My favourite line bcs it tells Ody what Athena wanted to tell him in "Remember them": Had Ody killed Polyphemus, Ployphemus wouldn't be in so much pain now and Poseidon (probably) wouldn't have come for him and his men. Had he not revealed his name, Polyphemus would still just know that Nobody did hurt him and Poseidon would have nothing to work with (given that he wasn't watching.)

[@anniefemmas5097]

What Odysseus did was not mercy, he condemned the Cyclops to die in the most horrible way possible, humiliating him and rubbing him in the face. That's why Poseidon was angry, If I had killed him it would have been justified, that was humiliation And that he pretends to be merciful is even worse.

[@anniefemmas5097]

​@@missvnuna3623 In fact, probably even if Poseidon knew that Ody killed Poly (hehehehe 🤓) he wouldn't have done anything For the so-called Greek justice

[@mielliot13]

​@@anniefemmas5097 I mean, Poseidon would probably still do some petty shit, killing Poly for food/survival is sortof a more acceptable way to die in Greek legends, so he probably wouldn't go like full annihilation with a side of psychological torture.

[@gracielasea]

15:47 Ody considers being a father as an active role. The fact that he hasn't been there for his son's foundational years is something that haunts him through the whole story.

[@jlablue3401]

A lot of people are saying Odysseus didn't actually apologize and that's why Poseidon killed his men, but I think they're missing the point. Poseidon just sang a whole song about how ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves, saying you can't make an enemy then let them live. Throughout the song it is very clear he has every intention of killing Odysseus. And the line directly after the apology (genuine or not) isn't "that wasn't an apology." It's "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible." He's calling Odysseus naive for believing an apology would earn him Poseidon's mercy. Poseidon was never going to let Odysseus or his men live, because it goes against his entirely philosophy. "You are far too nice, mercy has a price." "Unlike you I've got no mercy left to give." Nothing Odysseus said would ever have gotten them mercy from Poseidon.

[@violetaliceh]

This. I'm so tired of everyone parroting the "He didn't apologize" line like that means something. Like Poseidon wasn't one of the less chill gods in the greek pantheon with a tendency for violent outbursts (as would be expected from a personification of the ocean itself). People seem so keen on blaming Odysseus (and only him) for everything that goes wrong in this journey, it gets a little tiresome.

[@asafdeluna1585]

Totally agree with you, it's not like he was mad because Odysseus lied, he was already mad and nothing was going to change that. Actually it's easy to trick the gods if you know how, but to change their minds, mmm...

[@laurarocha4455]

I agree that I believe Poseidon was never going to give mercy to Odysseus and his crew. But, I do think it shows more about Odysseus as a person, that he was unwilling to apologize and still attempted to use his wordplay to try to justify himself to a God. A god that just stated before that he hated self righteousness. It further shows his fault of hubris.

[@markjack9772]

​@@laurarocha4455yes because in that moment he should have done something else

[@rachelq130]

⁠@@laurarocha4455 I think u said it perfectly. Both (interpretations? Observations?) are valid and add something to your reading of the text. But umm ya i don’t think Poseidon was gonna let them go… 😥

[@ezraabbadon5082]

Telemaceus face being blurry is because oddy doesnt know what his son actually looks like

[@Spiceodog]

“ I am your darkest moment “ as the eldritch horse grin’s sadistically . So terrifying

[@helenorvana]

There is a reason that AnniFlamma is usually The Recommendation for Ruthlessness - such a *fantastic* animation. Of note, while I agree that Odysseus was heartfelt in his explanation, it wasn't an *apology*. Someone also pointed out somewhere else that Poseidon drowning the rest of his men first (just sparing Odysseus's ship) was him honoring his son's "gift" of Odysseus being the last to die.

[@akaittou]

The English word "apology" comes from Greek roots apo + logos, which can be more direcly translated as "story of reason" or "reasonable explanation", which means that as a Greek, Odysseus very much DID apologise to the best of his ability, but as Poseidon himself said: "I want to see you bleed, I need to make your drown, but first..." - the god of the ocean isn't known as the most capricious and vengeful of all olympians for nothing.

[@isawp5199]

​Yeah but... Jorge has never said he knows all that stuff. Ultimately he's the reason all the characters say and do what they say and do, and if Jorge doesn't know what the roots of the word apology are, then he didn't intend those meanings in the lyrics. Not to mention, 'we didn't mean to, really, at least not that hard' is hardly a good justification (where did Odysseus explain WHY he had to do it?), and shows no regret either.

[@dragansnyder2786]

​@@isawp5199"where does he explain why he did it?" We hurt him to disarm him ( IE it took away his ability to see so that he couldn't attack them anymore when he got up from the lotus wine) we took no pleasure in his pain we only wanted to escape (people have used odysseus's rant to polyphemus as an example of taking pleasure in his pain, but he was simply expressing anger at the fact that polyphemus was choosing violence instead of choosing to be merciful, and the tactical error of doxing himself is something that I think he meant to say because it would deepen the impact of his message) so yeah I think he pretty well explained why he had to do what he did, he put the lotus in the wine in case polyphemus chose to attack them, they had to wake up the Cyclops to get him away from the door but they had to do it in such a way that would make sure he couldn't attack them again, and even though he doesn't say it, it would have been even dumber to kill polyphemus, because that would have meant his carcass was stuck in front of the door to where they couldn't move it, so he neglected one bit of explanation but I don't necessarily think it would have helped

[@Lashly273]

My fave part of the animation was Poseidon Horse running on the water during the "Ruthlessness is mercy upon ourselves!" part before jumping and diving while saying "You are the worst kind of good cuz you aren't even great."

[@ezraabbadon5082]

Posidon asks for an apology. Odysseus gives excuses/ reasonings. Not an apology.

[@-drxxms-dxlight]

A.K.A The earliest known form of a KZbinr Apology video :D

[@SayukiSuzukiMizuno]

@@-drxxms-dxlight They still didn't invent the ukulele

[@duolingoowl920]

Poseidon was going to kill him no matter what. He just wanted him to apologize for his ego. Why should Odysseus apologize when Polyphemus tried to kill him?

[@-drxxms-dxlight]

@@SayukiSuzukiMizuno NOT THE UKELELE 🤣🤣😭😭

[@SayukiSuzukiMizuno]

@@-drxxms-dxlight ALL I GOTTA DO IS TO PLAY THIS RIGHT NOW *ukulele noises*

[@bookswithike3256]

For the Circe saga, I'd recommend doing: Puppeteer: Gigi Wouldn't You Like: Ximena Natzel Done For: AnniFlamma and then waiting for AnniFlamma to finish their There are Other Ways animatic before reacting to the Circe saga. Almost no one has a There are Other Ways animatic yet, so you'll be waiting for someone one way or another.

[@Leo-kz2bb]

also dont forget that mircsy is still working on an animatic of done for

[@bookswithike3256]

@@Leo-kz2bb I don't tend to enjoy Mircsy's as much. I find them too over the top.

[@animacaodeumamador1006]

@@bookswithike3256 but you have to admit her Odysseus design is on fire, and their "My goodbye" animatic is in my opinion the best, just two close people arguing, with the result being on the end of their "friendship"

[@Fruity_one]

Gigi's on the process of finishing Wouldn't you like, and has already shown us the begining secuence

[@bookswithike3256]

@@animacaodeumamador1006 I think you're thinking of Wolfy. Mircsy's version of My Goodbye is the one where Odysseus and Athena have a physical fight.

[@GleamDrawz]

He's going to absolutely LOVE Hermes lmao I do too tbh

[@CyrahLia_459]

SAMEE! I love him so much

[@KristallOjeda]

We ALL love Hermes as a collective let's be honest lol

[@maryrob965]

I agree, I think almost everyone likes him honestly

[@disableddragonborn]

I don't trust anyone that doesn't love Hermes.

[@Lala14-zo5cw]

​@@KristallOjedaso true

[@sanddry738]

The entire shot of Posidon as a dark horse kicking up the waves was amazing. Just the sheer horror on Odysseus face is perfect

[@KefkeWren]

There's a lot of people saying Odysseus didn't apologize, and I feel like those people don't understand what an apology _is._ It's not about literally saying "sorry", or "I apologize". It means an admission of error and/or acknowledgement of what you did wrong. When Odysseus says "we meant no harm" and "we took no pleasure in his pain", that _is_ an apology. That is an admission of, "yes, we hurt your son, and we shouldn't have done it". Does he give the reasons why they did that? Yes, but that's what you're _supposed_ to do when you give an apology. Explaining what happened is literally step two in the Harvard guide on how to apologize. Poseidon doesn't sink the fleet because Odysseus "didn't apologize", he sinks it because that's what he'd been saying he was going to do the entire time. "The line between naiveté and hopefulness is almost invisible." is basically him calling Odysseus out on, "Haven't you been hearing a word I said?" - pointing out that his offer of mercy flew in the face of everything he'd been saying up to that point, and that Odysseus was a fool to believe it.

[@millypage7797]

This was perfectly said 👏👏👏

[@Scar-Predator]

Odysseus did and didn't give an actual apology, while yes, what he said is an apology, the way Odysseus worded it and the way it was said was Odysseus trying to justify his actions. Poseidon wasn't going to spare him, that was obvious. It's possible had Odysseus gave more of an actual apology, like show he knew he fucked up, Poseidon may have spared his men, but he didn't, he tried to play coy and just beat around the bush with the god who wants to see him dead. Poseidon didn't care if Odysseus apologized or not, he was going to make him pay regardless.

[@soulbound2]

EXACTLY someone who gets it

[@soulbound2]

​@@Scar-Predatorno don't stop that's not how this works

[@Chiales]

Despite that the actual apology is still missing and he only lists excuses. He plays with his words, showing how he still feels confident in his decision, thinking: "I didn't kill him, so we showed mercy". But Poseidon wants to show that this wasn't mercy, killing him would have been mercy. Yes, Odysseus accepts his guilt but also downplays it, which makes the whole thing just look disingenuous. The fun thing about this song is that both are correct, both have valid opinions, both are right in their own way but they don't want to see the other's ways and therefore CHOOSE conflict.

[@DarkestNova556]

Telemachus’ eyes are blanked because Odysseus hasn’t seen him since he was an infant. So he doesn’t know what he looks like older.

[@CalithorneIndustries]

"Is there ever a time when Odysseus has thought about something before doing it". Yeah, when he dropped that fuckin kid off the wall!

[@lowstamina_arts]

Fun fact: Aeolus is actually wind or at least is depicted as the wind in the original story or something apparently there’s a lot of different thoughts. Also one thing that Gigi does is know how to add artist interpretations that break your heart for example when Odysseus is dreaming about his wife and son, Telemachus’s face is scribbled out because Odysseus doesn’t know what he looks like now since he left when Telemachus was a baby 😭

[@TealVT]

Aeolus in EPIC has no gender, just wind :)

[@lowstamina_arts]

@@TealVT ah okay thank you ^ ^

[@Slash_to_your_heart]

​@@TealVT id say he is gender:fluid. But that feels more like the god children of POSEIDON (capitalized ofc)

[@lowstamina_arts]

@@Slash_to_your_heart I can see that yeah

[@warriorwatch2406]

@@TealVT Really? It was my understanding that Aeolus was still a guy, just the actor is a woman.

[@Chikararyoku]

Poseidon: apologies for what you did to my son! Odysseus: we did not mean to harm him. we only wanted to escape. Poseidon: I see your point, but did you not hear where I said to; ME DAMN APOLOGIES?!!!

[@anniefemmas5097]

Yap, Odysseus was so arrogant to believe that he could justify himself before a god, as if they were both equal.

[@akaittou]

The English word "apology" comes from Greek roots apo + logos, which can be more direcly translated as "story of reason" or "reasonable explanation", which means that as a Greek, Odysseus very much DID apologise to the best of his ability, but as Poseidon himself said: "I want to see you bleed, I need to make your drown, but first..." - the god of the ocean isn't known as the most capricious and vengeful of all olympians for nothing.

[@Chikararyoku]

@@akaittou I didn't know about the origin of the word. thanks for the lesson

[@BeyondTrash-xe1vs]

​@@akaittoueven in a modern sense, the only thing really lacking from this apologies the words "I'm sorry". And if the only thing that defines an apology to you as those two words, you're apologizing wrong.

[@sunnysunsins]

Fun fact: in "luck runs out" you can hear Aeolus' flute when Ody sings "this is the home of the wind god". Mental image of her listening in and playing her flute, thinking of how to cause a little chaos

[@Macbeth909]

AHH I never noticed his flute in this before that's actually so smart to add into the song

[@keiichuu_]

Some suggestions for the animatics of the circe saga, since there aren’t a lot that available with the now completed songs, for “puppeteer” I suggest gigi’s animatic, for “wouldn’t you like” by Ximena Natzel, for “Done for” by AnniFlamma, and for “there are other ways” (there aren’t much with the full song yet) by juu

[@SaraSong-mw3zm]

I agree Gigi's animactic for Puppeteer is so good :D

[@Leo-kz2bb]

honestly, id wait until mircsy releases their version of done for. as you said, there arent many full animatics available which sucks

[@phalanx_art]

“Keep your Friends Close” is one of my top favorites, excited to see your reaction Aeolus is my favorite character by far, her carefree attitude and talk singing is amazing.

[@aidenk.364]

600 men, 12 ships, 50 men per ship. 6 crew from Odysseus’s ship + Polites died so 43 left on that ship. Poseidon sunk just the other 11 ships.

[@Fenntic]

44 theresa manwho dies at circes, which is counted in the 43, then some how they lose one more in between circe and underworld

[@CorbinIsAGod]

​@@Fenntic43 left after Poseidon, and after Circe returns the crew back to normal, Elpenor falls off circe's roof drunk

[@stardust1815]

"and yet you hurt this son of mine!" "It was at this moment he knew...he fucked up."

[@Zayber129]

Honestly my take is that Poseidon took that as an apology, but was NOT going to let him live if he did, which is why he called him naive, like no dude you are gonna die anyway

[@kkTeaz]

this is actually genius, you could say Ody didn't apologise, and tricked Poseidon into thinking he did, but he still killed them bcs Ruthlessness.

[@stardust1815]

I've made this joke before on the actual animatic's video, but Odysseus gave a youtuber level apology there. He never even apologized, he just tried to justify his actions. The least you can do is say sorry to the God of the Sea for blinding his son.

[@LexitaMai]

I took him dropping the baby as "you're willing to kill an innocent and helpless child, but won't even finish the job with a cyclops who's trying to kill you and has slaughtered your men'. That also brings more sense to the "sense of false righteousness" accusation.

[@disableddragonborn]

It may just be because of my love for Hamilton, but to me, when Odysseus says "All I gotta do is open this bag!" Jay's voice sounds like Lin-Manuel Miranda. Also, Poseidon's "WHAT?!" reminds me of Lil Jon.

[@aroseydragon2873]

“Mortius, the horse is back.”

[@officialmortius]

LMAO

[@Nunovski04]

Something I noticed when I first heard the song "Keep Your Friends Close". Aeoulus actually says "And if you WIND you'll get what you're yearning". Just thought it was a nice little pun 😁

[@MildlyPerturbed]

It’s so frustrating because they were so close to Ithaca’s shores that it was literally in sight, before Odysseus’s men opened the bag! They were so close!!!

[@Smk42217]

Does any animatic actually show this? I’d love to see it

[@MildlyPerturbed]

@@Smk42217 Gigi's animatic briefly shows Ithaca as Odysseus sings about Penelope and Telemachus.

[@JamesTwice]

What makes the bag opening sadder is if I recall the story, they were within sight of home when they opened the bag

[@phoenix_songbird]

Tbh was probably better it happened at sea, less lives lost Vs at home

[@isaiahjohnson3487]

They were less than a day's journey, if my memory of the actual Odyssey is to be believed.

[@Kvitravn.]

It was 43 left alive at the end because he saved Oddyseus and his ship for last, he was gonna kill them all but he wanted Oddyseus to suffer first.

[@Jackie-McCann]

19:11 “…Poseidon? Is that you, buddy?" Just the timid fear in your voice slays me, because that’s the correct reaction! 🤣

[@driananium]

"The line between NAIVETY and HOPEFULLNESS is almost invisible." Did Ody apologize? Absolutely not... Even if he HAD apologized, Poseidon says 'I cant tell if your stupid or hopeful, but either way die.' Poseidon had no intent of sparing them if they apologized.

[@soulbound2]

He did apologize

[@makermarvel]

i think Poseidon was putting it as "you're willing to kill a baby but when it comes to a cyclops, you hesitate"

[@DarkestNova556]

Honestly idk why the animatics show him as so happy when he opens the bag. It might be the way he says it but I imagine him more so as having an attitude than being happy or relieved.

[@bethanyjackson2719]

I think the happiness is the sudden hope for escape and survival when otherwise it looked like they were doomed. That's the way I interpret it at least.

[@Galaxxite]

that's one reason why i like gigi's more - in it the act of opening the bag is more of a desperate last resort, something he hadn't considered until then :D

[@jlablue3401]

Yeah that's my one gripe with this animatic. The rest of it is top notch but that part almost comes across as "lol so random" with how abrupt a change it is from grieving with his head buried in his hands to a wide beaming smile. I definitely prefer the way Gigi handled the ending and it's the sole reason I recommend her version for at least a first time listen/watch, but Anniflamma's is my go to whenever I want to watch and listen to it because the rest is just so good.

[@siriuscrane7]

For the Circe Saga you have to react to Puppeteer from Gigi! Hers is incredible.

[@winterstorm7886]

YES

[@MrSmile078]

Ximena is also cool I love the puppet strings and shadow transformation details

[@kartallemat]

Circe Saga. - Pupperteer / Gigi and Ximena Natzel - Wouldn't you like / Ximena Natzel - Done For / Anniflamma - There are other ways / Gigi and Anniflamma (It's incomplete... there are no finished animations for that song, so you'll have to listen to the animated half and the other half from Mr. Jalapeño´s channel)

[@Fruity_one]

Here on the waiting list✋🏼 Might write something new tomorrow! But while we're at it- Jay recently annoucend on his platforms that the next saga (The underworld saga) will release on THIS 26th! It's also the end of act 1 so- get ready!!👻

[@justanormalpeeps3938]

THE UNDERWORLD SAGA WILL RELEASE THIS MONTH??????

[@Fruity_one]

@@justanormalpeeps3938 YESS!!!

[@CyrahLia_459]

OMG I DIDNT KNOW THAT YESSS!!!!! I can't WAIT!

[@justanormalpeeps3938]

@@Fruity_one BUT THAT'S SO SOON, IT FELT LIKE THE CIRCE SAGA JUST RELEASED A WEEK AGO

[@Fruity_one]

@@justanormalpeeps3938 I KNOW!

[@Ekami-chan]

"the line between nativity and hopefulness is almost invisible." Line with those strings is SO AMAZING, and I love this animation Poseidon stepping on Odysseus's ship, and all of the callbacks from Poseidon mocking Odysseus, it's so good~ 👏 Also, Ximena Natzel's pupeteer is awesome :D

[@Im_1n_The_House]

Poseidon dropping the infant is such a hurtful touch

[@NothingKingKN]

"Ruthlessness" is basically three minutes of Poseidon going "How does it feel, you twerp." but in an artistic manner.

[@CyrahLia_459]

THE CAPTIONS HAVE COME AT LAST!! Gigi is amazing for doing that fr :) I also REALLY need that so same struggle there 😅😅

[@CyrahLia_459]

They're BOTH great for doing that

[@snakegirl1925]

The reason why Telemachus is blurred is cuz ody didn't see him grow therefore he doesn't know what he looks like

[@takota6316]

The baby was a mirror representing Polyphemus and Astyanax the son of Hector. He killed A but spared P, which is why he is now suffering.

[@cameraguy9800]

28:24 I love this because the dude threw me off guard I literally said "WHAT???" Only to hear poseidon be as confused as I am lmaooo

[@reneehunt5590]

Poseidon sounds like an angry surfer dude who gargles salt water, which makes perfect sense for him

[@pearluti]

I think a lot of you in this comment section are misunderstanding Poseidon. Even if Odysseus had apologised, he wouldn't have spared him. He was repeating the lesson Zeus had taught him (with the infant), that Athena had taught him (with Polyphemus), that in order to survive you must be ruthless and merciless. Odysseus' fatal flaw was holding onto his compassion. An apology would not have saved him. Odysseus didn't bother with an apology and immediately defaulted to using his 'silver tongue,' because he saw through Poseidon, not because he was too prideful to apologise. And Poseidon saw through Odysseus, calling his hopefulness naive. Athena also called him naive. Zeus countered all of Odysseus' hopeful suggestions to spare the infant. The gods know better than the humans in Epic, which Athena passionately exclaimed in 'My Goodbye'. Because in the end, it is being ruthless that gets Odysseus home. I think Jorge meant this to be a pivotal song in Epic, but so many of you are hung onto the idea that none of what happened later would have happened if Odysseus had just apologised. Even Poseidon from myth is petty - an apology would have meant jack, and the both of them knew it.

[@feistsorcerer2251]

I agree with most of this except for the bit about Odysseus not being too prideful. Odysseus from Epic still absolutely has hubris as a fatal flaw like the original one from the Odyssey does. So unless Jorge has mentioned something otherwise and I missed it, I'm pretty sure Odysseus is still trying to use his silver tongue to get out of the situation and thinks he has a shot to, hence doing a non apology like he did with Polyphemus. It acts as a moment showing that Odysseus has a problem with hubris. I do agree that even if he had genuinely apologized it wouldn't have mattered though. Poseidon was going to kill them regardless.

[@pearluti]

@@feistsorcerer2251 I won't disagree that Odysseus from Epic shares Homer's Odysseus' pride - I only put forward that pride wasn't the paramount reason why he didn't apologise to Poseidon, which a lot of the people in this comment section think. I believe they're under the impression that Odysseus thought himself too great to apologise to Poseidon, rather than him deflecting because he knew an apology wouldn't suffice. Odysseus is definitely prideful. He'd have to be to foolishly reveal himself to Polyphemus, even after introducing himself as Nobody. He'd have to be in order to insult a goddess and let her leave, in spite of her assistance and support thus far. Eurylochus basically said in front of Odysseus' men that Odysseus' pride is what will keep killing them, as well as his refusal to admit that his prior cunning only succeeded due to chance. He is definitely prideful - but he wasn't being in Ruthlessness. Rather, I interpret him as (Trying to be, anyway - ) being clever again, and calm Poseidon's clear rage with rationale and reason. 'We hurt him because we had no choice - we didn't want to do it.' in my opinion sounds like it would have a greater impact than, 'Sorry for hurting your son. We didn't mean to teehee.'

[@rymasan5489]

I love keep your friends close it s one of my favorites song so far BUT I CANT LISTEN TO IT , when odysseys says NOOOOOOOOO !!!!! My heart shatters …. The despair in his voice is just heartbreaking

[@Dark_Wolf_846]

In the original myth its made extremely clear that they're literally minutes away from home. The people on the island can see them coming home, Ody's mom is literally watching her son come home when that bag opens and blows them all away.

[@rainbowshiningstar2770]

STOPPP!!! YOU'RE MAKING ME CRY!!

[@ShyyGaladriel]

Poseidon is like “you could kill an innocent child but you drew the line on someone who killed your men??? Really? Fuck this guy in particular.”

[@papakumabear]

Musically speaking this are two of my favorite songs too - I've been kinda quietly following and wanted to just say that discovering you as you react to one of my favorite series of music out there has been a wonderful experience. You're awesome! Please keep it up.

[@officialmortius]

Thanks so much for that!!

[@JohnFrost-v2b]

Another thing to think of when it comes to ruthlessness is that the request of "but if you apologize" was a test. After all, poseidon LITERALLY just sung about ruthlessness being mercy. And taking that offer and praying that it works out just completely disregards all of what poseidon was saying

[@rustyattacker]

24:00 I always read that last line as "I hear you but I dont have another plan right now, so I need you to not have the crew start questioning as well or all of us could die " With the desperation in his voice followed by the almost stressed but relieved "thank you" it fits.

[@wolfbane7497]

You should apologize Poseidon : " Are you not listening. "

[@zelo4290]

I love the amount of connections made in Ruthlessness to Remember Them, especially towards the end. Not only does Poseidon repeat "I am your darkest moment" which was one of the last sentences Odysseus said to Polyphemus, but also does he end with "Remember me", which was also said to Polyphemus just before Odysseus reveals his name and beeing the king of Ithaca, with which Poseidon starts at the end of Keep Your Friends Close.

[@PuccaLover15]

I loved the Ruthlessness video. It is incredible! But a cool little minor detail Gigi's adds is when Odysseus reopens the bag of winds, Aeolus makes one final appearance as the rest of his men are blown away just before Poseidon sings "Remember me..."

[@spiderlily723]

The way the animatic makes it so much clearer that Poseidon was aiming for Odysseus and nobody else - that it was about his broken morals, his false rightousness, his lesson to learn which he never deas. It's really good.

[@swissorr]

How did I just realize the parallel in the animatic between Posideon dropping, supposedly his son, while toying with Odysseus’s guilt of doing the same to Andromache and Hector’s son.

[@birubu]

The blurring over Telemachus’s face is because Ody doesn’t know what he looks like. Last he’s seen his son, the kid was in a crib.

[@nateklempner561]

I recommend watching Gigi's animatic of "Ruthlessness", the one who made the animatic for "Keep your friends close" that you watched in this video. She gets a lot more action from Poseidon and it feels really full of movement and transition through the whole thing. Also, the way she animated the final scene was a lot more in-line with the tone of the moment I would say.

[@maryrob965]

I’m so excited for you to get to the Circe saga, it has my favorite song in the whole musical (“Wouldn’t you like”), and I think you are absolutely gonna adore Hermes

[@dudaalmeida4040]

15:45 likely it was already answered, but Telemachus' face is scratched here cuz he doesn't know his own son's face as an adult, he only ever saw him as an infant before leaving for war, so in his dreams he doesn't have a face like penelope. :C

[@disableddragonborn]

That "Remember me" was another reference to the Polyphemus situation. Odysseus said that to him too.

[@area52ron]

“All I gotta do is open this bag!” The men who died to Poseidon: You couldn’t have done that before we died?!

[@bumplebees]

I'm so glad you pointed out that shift right before Poseidon yells "Odysseus"!! I've listened to this so many times but somehow never picked up on it, now that I have, it gives me chills.

[@morrowzoranov]

25:33 Poseidon asked for an apology, at no point during this song do the words "I'm sorry" leave Odysseus' lips, he's also straight up lying by saying he didn't take pleasure in Polyphemus' pain because he mocks him at the end of "remember them", he revealed his name so Polyphemus knows who blinded him, he called him a beast, and tacked on the "I am your darkest moment" as a blind joke for good measure, everyone has their own interpretation but I don't see anything Odysseus says here as genuine, to me he's just being his old silver-tongued trickster self also for the next saga, I recommend waiting for anniflamma to finish their animatic of "there are other ways", there are very few animatics of the full song and all of them exclude a very important detail about a scene that takes place in it, anniflamma kept that detail in the wip from a few days ago so it'll probably stay in the final piece as well

[@pocahontasgirl1]

"Deal" -Mortius immediately gets mad 😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@officialmortius]

I meannnn am I wrong

[@pocahontasgirl1]

​@@officialmortius nope, and I think that's the best part 😂

[@thelion1366]

The crossing out of Telemachus' eyes is basically saying that Odysseus doesn't know what he looks like.

[@wibbly8011]

Your utter shock and horror at “Die” was so good. Like it is for moments like this that I love reaction videos. Thank you for sharing. I already knew what was coming when I listened the first time, so thank you for letting me experience it vicariously through you.

[@ioanzatui]

Unfortunately, however pretty it sounded in Ruthlessness, what Odysseus did was an excuse/justification of what he did to Polyphemus, and not an actual apology. Not that it mattered, Poseidon was going to murk him and his men either way. "The line between naivety and hopefulness is almost invisible."

[@eaglefan2569]

I mean yeah, the moment Ody chose to ignore Athena's advice regarding killing Polyphemus and instead chose to gloat and revealed himself he was gonna be attacked. You can actually hear some of Poseidon's instruments in Storm. The Trojan horse was supposed to be an offering to Poseidon, and Odysseus's crew hadn't been paying ANY tribute to Poseidon while crossing his domain. Blinding Polyphemus- when Poseidon would know Odysseus killed at that point an innocent infant- was just the last straw. Odysseus personally slighted Poseidon, and Poseidon wasn't gonna let him get away with it if he could help it.

[@disableddragonborn]

@@eaglefan2569 And he's not even really angry, just annoyed, and somewhat offended.

[@mundoatena1674]

It was as close to a Greek apology as he could do without literally offering his life to Poseidon

[@ravenmocker9762]

8:14 gives Aang (from the last avatar cartoon) 22:56 Fun fact - Posedao (Poseidon Mycenaean Greek) his form looks kinda like horse that would run on the waves of the ocean to bring storms and bring the souls of the dead to the underworld

[@VeMM0]

my interpretation of Poseidon dropping the infant on that line was to tell Odysseus “you had no problem doing what needed to be done before. You could’ve killed him. You’re capable. You chose not to and now I have to teach you a lesson”

[@Ninalikewhaa]

Bro fr said "be ruthless" and Odysseus goes "we did an oopsie D:". I can feeeeel the internal facepalm Poseidon had in that pause before "The line between naïveté and hopefulness is almost invisible" 😂

[@yukimuraiizofus2621]

It's probably already written several of times, but I really really really would recommend you the ruthlessness from neal illustrator. She did such a good job in explaining the wind bag and in showing how to fight not just a God, but an ocean

[@wintersking4290]

Think about this for a second, Poseidon is god of Horses. Odysseus built the Trojan horse as a fake offering to Poseidon to get into Troy and win the war. That alone was a pretty big insult, Poseidon let A LOT slide for Odysseus up til this point. Him maiming Polyphemus was really just the last straw. His appearance in his horse guise here is probably mocking Odysseus's biggest achievement (the Trojan horse) and how even that was only possible because of Poseidon's mercy. One of the best things about this particular animatic.

[@gregkral4467]

The odyssey is still one of the greatest stories, this presentation is very emotional and beautiful. Gotta check the rest out. Thanks for sharing.

[@Godofduckes]

The baby and the cyclop serves as a parallel because if Odysseus left the infant alive he would eventually be killed and if he killed the cyclop he would be home

[@darky5554]

Posidon: "Any last words?" Odysseus : "Yeet!"

[@userunknown8830]

A super cool detail I really love is when Odysseus starts dreaming, Penelope actively moves him to try and keep him awake everytime he tries to lean on her to rest as she softly chants “Just keep your eyes open~”

[@ParadyceLife]

What makes the whole thing worse is that Odysseus and his men were *within sight* of Ithica when the bag was opened. They were quite literally in the home stretch and it was ruined. And the fact that Poseidon killed everyone but the people on Odysseus's ship - people who probably didn't know about the bag and weren't involved with opening it - is also a gut-punch. Imagine being the person who opened the bag not only being the reason they didn't get home, but is also the reason the whole fleet encountered Poseidon and was killed.

[@anonym0us371]

"Why did he even leave 43 men alive?" - a Greek Trireme crewed up to 50 men, and Odysseus had his entire army of 600 on the way home. Poseidon's ruthlessness was demonstrated vy making sure Odysseus' flagship was the one left for last. the remaining seven were the ones killed by the Cyclops, including Polities - as seen in the animatics.

[@acequeenofthedeck8431]

I think the baby posiden holds then drops is to mock how odyssesus was able to drop the baby from horse and the infant (in front of his mother no less) but couldnt kill a CYCLOPS.

[@CyberX-X]

No time for consideration, Odysseus storms Full Speed Ahead!

[@noobguyscrublord3039]

Oddyseus: *breaths* Mortius: *dramatically gasps* Oddyseus!

[@wintersking4290]

The parallel between the infant in Troy and Polyphemus is intentional according to the animator.

[@Nightmaregaming935]

I just want to warn you in the later sagas animation they don't animate the full song so it's best to listen to the official tracks

[@the0neBoio]

well there already are full versions of all songs from circe saga, obviously not the other ones because the album isn't released. Also I only listen to them once the album is on Spotify, so I don't know about the animations for those

[@makihadunka14]

Have you seen gigi's puppeteer

[@feistsorcerer2251]

He might just need to wait a little bit to react for them to come out. Since you posted this comment the underworld saga already has animatics for all 3 within a week of release, and the Circe saga has a few options for every song now with even more set to be on the way. The last song could do with some other options due to audio quality issues on the animatic that gets a vital detail right, but other than that things are pretty solid.

[@cybonikAutoma]

Fun fact: in your last video when you heard the "storm" motif, and you said something along the lines of "I swear this is familiar", well in "Ruthlessness" when Poseidon says "I mean you totally could have avoided all this had you just killed my son" you can hear the storm motif, indicating that YES Poseidon caused the storm.

[@pixlv6384]

In my opinion, Poseidon is less mad that Polyphemus is hurt, but more so that Odysseus blinded his son and led his siblings to believe he's a liar, but he's willing to kill an innocent infant child. His ideology of ruthlessness makes him think that leaving his son to live the rest of his life blinded instead of being at least mercy killed is the worse outcome. And plus, I dont agree with Odysseus being genuine about that apology. What his "apology" boils down to is him syaing "We didn't MEAN to hurt your son, he forced our hand" and that is not an apology. That is deflecting blame, and while it is true that Polyphemus is at fault, deflecting the blame to the son of the god demanding an apology from you is not exactly smart

[@disableddragonborn]

It's victim blaming. Plain and simple.

[@elmitchell3843]

"I swear the screen didn't froze, I'm just paralysed with fear." Mortius, 2024

[@XppleCutiie]

I remember when the tiny beings said “it’s treasure, bye bye” i immediately respond with “little shits!” while dying from laughter. The delivery was so funny. Also I love both Gigi’s and Aniflamma’s art

[@MidnightSunna]

Ahhhhhh the cruelty of waiting til tomorrow XD I can't wait to see your reaction to Aeolus

[@bearhugzfam649]

The reason why Telemachus’s eyes are blurred out is because it’s been so long that he doesn’t know what he looks like 😭also dis is anni daughter and i love your vids so much ❤❤❤❤