Oliver ENDS The "Sidechain Your 808" Debate (6 Popular Techniques Compared)

[@SolStateMusic]

🤔Did Oliver react to Kenny's "Stop Using Sidechain As A Bandaid" video? kzbin.info/www/bejne/mma0qXWgntWpg8k My Guess is yes.

[@mixedinkey]

This is exactly how KZbin tutorials should be. To the point, full of knowledge and wisdom. Thank you

[@jfklmk13447]

Agreed

[@klementus]

You're right!

[@SolStateMusic]

Thank you. Always helpful to get feedback.

[@parisss01]

yeah, no 30 min of unnecessary over explanation

[@RemoverBacterias]

true what a great video

[@JamesWestMusicMan]

Why has there been such a debate around this topic? He made it clear in the end, music is music, there's no right or wrong. Great edit Sol!

[@tilda140]

because everything has to be a controversy for some reason :(

[@brather0047]

@@tilda140 its just people tryna act like smartasses on internet

[@KK-----]

opinionated mfs gotta act like there's one way to do shit

[@bramschiebroek1413]

I love that he just went in to 'solve' the debate. I alway's think that the top producers are waaaaaayyy to nitpicky with the sounds while the consumer really doesn't care at all.

[@timferret7102]

I think most of the times it goes down to your own idea of what you think sounds and works the best for you.

[@SolStateMusic]

Good observation. I think the end listener feels the difference with better songs/mixes. They just can't verbalize why it feels better.

[@tjerborfritzasnt5942]

It's all the little things that add up together

[@GabrielQuiroz95]

Watching music production videos are bad for your creativity. The best producer I know spend 0 time on KZbin. Cheers

[@krissavagelive]

@@GabrielQuiroz95 Any data to support that claim??

[@akrasmusic]

Yes absolutely. I hate the ”never do this” type of videos. Those type of people usually overstate some weird principle, or don’t know how to do something properly. For example: kick+bass sidechain needs to be very short. Oliver achieved it with using a separate key track. I usually high pass filter the sidechain signal in the logic compressor, that way only a short snap of the kick is the trigger.

[@SolStateMusic]

Exactly. The end result is all that matters. Techniques are just ways to get there.

[@jaime5649]

PLEASE keep making videos like this. this is a perfect video, just the right length and straight to the point

[@admiralhax9714]

Everytime i come back to a sol state video i just think about all the time that was wasted looking at youtube videos before sol state. Sol stateeeeee 🐐

[@SolStateMusic]

Aw thanks! Glad to help :)

[@bananermat3798]

Completely agree with the premise of this video, the end result is key, but if you're working in a genre where loudness matters a lot, the method you choose will impact the mastering stage quite a bit.

[@leaveitorsinkit242]

4:13 A limiter also clips your signal depending on how you set its attack and release times.

[@mattey909]

Yes, but at that point the limiter is basically a clipper, so i wouldn't call it a limiter anymore.

[@jirojori]

Just a big THANK YOU for going through all the streams, fishing out the gems, editing it in a brilliant way and making it available to everyone. ♥️ While I really enjoy watching full musical streams, I hardly find the time to do so anymore. So, this is appreciated so much!

[@zandertraveler2083]

Oliver tracks are cleaner and smack harder than anything Kenny has ever made. Number one rule of music: if it sounds good, it’s good. Keep doing you my guy.

[@LETTMusic]

My favorite method is dynamic EQ sidechaining. Linking Fab Filter Pro Q 3 on a kick to Fab Filter Pro Q 3 on an 808, finding where the fundamental frequency of the kick is, and matching that with the 808, and having the 808 duck right there upon the input of the kick. Another way to do something similar would be with a plugin like Wavesfactory Trackspacer, and dialing in a frequency band on the 808 where the fundamental root of the kick is, and having that duck on the 808.

[@GuyGamer1]

You can do this with Ableton's Auto EQ.

[@LETTMusic]

@@GuyGamer1 FL Studio user here, but main point is dynamic EQ is a solid option that addresses frequency masking.

[@zachary963]

I don’t generally make this kinda music, usually rock and metal, but the dynamic eq sidechain is my favorite for rock. I set a relatively narrow band right at the fundamental of the kick and put the eq on the bass. That way, the kick punches the fundamental out of the bass. It keeps the bass heavy and big and present, and it makes the kick sound thunderous.

[@maxackerman7364]

Something I liked sometimes aswell is using TrackSpacer, keeps your Kick tonally there and your 808 can come back quite nice (needs some tweaking tho). Just as an additional method :) (its basically multiband SC)

[@jody2055]

If your working with midi and have your samples in a sampler Adjust the decay of the kick and the attack of the 808 until they gel well together. Helps if the kick is same key as the 808.

[@tommyottobisdee]

When I saw that he used a tiny “click” sound as the SC source, I thought “ah! he figured it out!” haha… Regardless of what effect is desired, I always use the same “click” sound for external SC routing because then it will always work the same on everything - if you use the actual kick drum sample then you immediately complicate the method because the compression release will now be delayed by an unpredictable value, plus the SC volume will also change depending on the program material - meaning the threshold will have to be adjusted too. He’s also right that ALL the methods work in different situations - the only one I’d be cautious of is the MB sidechain which often creates a subtle “phasey” effect which can be hard to workaround even switching to linear phase mode since the former creates phase artefacts and the latter creates pre-ringing 😩 Good video!

[@exileisland2675]

This is a gem. I figured this out on my own like a year ago. Been using a clone of my kick as a trigger for years 😬🤡

[@AutPen38]

You can adjust the length of the volume ducking with the release control in the compressor. This isn't very practical if your actual kick keeps changing volume though, but a lot of kicks have a bit of a "wobble" in their volume (because the transient isn't always very short and sharp) which leads to ducking that also wobbles. If you use a short sound to trigger the side chain compressor, the release control makes the volume change more smoothly.

[@chandeleerjet5637]

Working with good musicians, I learned some of the best bass players that I worked with just played a little late when the kick hits, that’s my favorite way is just move the 808 or bass a little late so they don’t hit exactly. Also sound selection

[@marcobiraghi]

The limiter thing works, but that comes at the cost of altering the kick sound, which is not always wanted. Some fried-up trap beats might want it, but you still can achieve it by clipping the kick individually and sidechaining the 808.

[@kevinjuskevcallaghan3939]

Ableton stock Glu compressor or Saturator (soft clip enabled) is the way to go… try it out if you haven’t already and let me know what you think!!

[@dystopia-0616]

this dudes color gradient game is sick

[@TheHatMusic]

If you wanted to give yourself the most flexibility in how you tweak each individual hit, you could use the phase alignment method on multiple 808s at different pitches, and load the lot into a sampler. Is it worth it? Maybe.... once you have the samples made, you can run them on any sampler by just loading up a patch, so it could be worth the time to set it up. Excellent tutorial!

[@lamarj3037]

Waves F6 sidechain is one of the best plug-ins for mixing/blending low ends with the kick and 808

[@zachary963]

This is my favorite digital eq! I mentioned in another comment that in rock and metal music, I use a narrow q dynamic eq to have the kick “punch” its fundamental out of the bass. I always use F6 to get that. Also, I’ve tried putting several narrow bands, one at the fundamental of the kick, one at the first harmonic, and one at the fundamental of the snare. That works pretty good too

[@ianheluk]

sidechain is not purely for electronic music - perfect for making space and briging elements forward (try sidechaining elements to vocals trust me)

[@nostralgia3203]

he was specifically talking about sidechaining kicks to your bass, which is fairly common in electronic music, (not as much in other genres)

[@ianheluk]

@@nostralgia3203 yeah facts - just making a point that sidchain is just amazing across the board. 100% agree with you though

[@lamsior]

This is what we call a Masterclass

[@goti6539]

I tend to Use Soothe and sidechain the 808/ bass that way. So it’s bassically sidechaining with an eq instead of a Compressor.

[@knuffelpuff1920]

What about using peak controller on the kick and link it to the lows on 808 eq?

[@talenwaver]

Xfer LFO Tool in MIDI trigger mode is hella nice for this. You can adjust everything about it. :)

[@TheChiversBeatCompany]

The simple fade in sounds best to me ! 🤷🏻‍♂ More is Less

[@mareikemacinnes7764]

1)Sidechain without compressor: Simply turn down the volume of the 808 manually wherever the kick and the 808 are on top of each other in the pattern. 2) Looking for a kick with the same root note as that of the 808, this is the best sounding ate and easiest method. Greetings from Germany

[@mareikemacinnes7764]

@@yyyy12344 So what?

[@supernatural802]

Sol State with another gem.

[@exileisland2675]

The whole "edm pump" stigma people try to put on sidechaining to make it seem bad is just a matter of shortening the release. It's the most efficient way since each kick and 808 is different you'll waste time getting the eq right when you can just sidechain real quick and get a consistent result.

[@HoodDreamsHustlers]

Thank you for this Man...I love your ableton skin so good to the eyes

[@beastwolf7]

This was great, I didn't know about a few of these methods

[@RoryRonde]

great video. In the end it is really a flavor thing. I must say I like the phase version the most. In a way in this example it sounds more "sidechained" than the sidechained version itself haha. For me it's a stylistic technique so it's nice when it's really heard. Like the bass has been stopped for a short while before continuing, giving extra momentum to the groove.

[@clxud1]

Here's a use Trick that I came up wid, where you have to use shaperbox on 808 n kick(Vertically inverted) at the same time on *Trigger Mode*...by triggering them at the same time using *midi trigger* to avoid bowtie'ing(peak) cuz you cutting out the tail of your kick n it'll make it sound so smooth n yu can also split the frequencies to make *specific Attack n release* time for different frequency bands...n sometimes while you changing the note of your 808 can cause some bowtie'ing...to Avoid that you can *invert the phase* of you kick while it hit that particular note by automating phase inversion on n off...it's more like *phase align* method with some extras control over your sidechain

[@marcobiraghi]

that's basically the phase-align method with the pro of having kick and 808 on separate channels but having to do extra clicks on both tracks to fine-tune it.

[@clxud1]

@@marcobiraghi n once yu setup your template it work like gem...n it won't be a time taking process as it seems

[@clxud1]

@@marcobiraghi n the key thing is yu don't have to work with audio

[@peezyy3]

I use the "duck" plugin as the Sidechaining device. Its super accurate and lets you control the shape of the fade in.

[@TOOgroovy]

so so helpful.. need a lot more of these from the greatssss

[@johndow3061]

This was a great twitch stream. Definitive demonstrative examples and explanations.

[@Beatsbasteln]

best method is to use a midi triggered gate on the 808, like envelover. it has perfect timing precision and a clean modulation with precise adjustments easy to accomplish

[@kevinjuskevcallaghan3939]

For hip hop/trap…. I usually go Dry with Glu Compressor (soft clip enabled) on the master.

[@Otakutaanger]

could you explain the purpose of triggering the sidechain compression with the click sound instead of the kick?

[@SolStateMusic]

More precise control over sidechain release time.

[@Otakutaanger]

@@SolStateMusic so that just means you're lining up the click with the kick and making sure they're both tbe same dB upok impact?

[@melorams22]

Question: How is sidechain and multiband sidechain different? does regular sidechain duck the volume of the entire 808?

[@nickepic1863]

Yes, this is why you use multiband to sidechain only frequency you want, in this case low/sub frequency that would interfere with your kick and therefore make your mix muddy and cause other problems like clipping, distorted sound etc. This is more desirable technique if you use it on the instruments with more high frequency information like leads and bass.

[@AutPen38]

Yeah. You often only really want to reduce the volume of the (low end) 808/bass because that's where you get phasing issues where the two sounds either add together and cause distortion, or cancel each other out and create that wobbly/phased sound that lacks power. You might want the higher frequencies of the 808/bass to pass through unchanged because they don't clash with the kick, and you want the listener to still feel/hear that the bass is there, but you don't need the lower end of the 808/bass to mix with the kick during the transient portion, since it can clash with it in a way that doesn't sound good or that messes up the volume level.

[@SchibbiSchibbi]

great comparison!

[@BobbyBriscoeBeats]

I never understood why Kenny would say to never sidechain. It's easy to make it sound right, and gives you more headroom.

[@robbeservaes3625]

Just find a kick and 808 that work nicely together. Layer them, optionally you could try to get a "more optimal" phase relationship between the two by shifting them around, flipping the phase etc. The "phase-alignment" he demonstrates is just a crossfade, has very little to do with what is commonly referred to as phase-alignment. That is when you try to change the combined sound of two elements by shifting them around in very small amounts (often on the level of samples) flipping their phase/reversing polarity etc to try and get a "more favourable" phase relationship. Apart from that you just need to do some decent gain staging in your chains and make sure you're not clipping your masterbus and you should be fine honestly. Kick and bass have worked together for decades. If you're experiencing issues with them, you could either give them their own space in the frequency spectrum, and/or you make sure they have a nice phase relationship in which they reinforce eachother tastefully. Sidechaining is a technique that can be used, but unless it's a standard in the genre you're working in, it would rarely be my first choice. One last thing, subtle sidechaining, either frequency-specific or just in very small amounts with tasteful attack and release settings can really work well in a lot of situations. I use it on quite a few elements when mixing. To me it can almost act as some sort of very subtle fader-ride, and can really get your mix moving a little bit if it's done very subtly and in combination with other techniques such as automation etc.

[@cornoc]

yeah that's not really how i would have demonstrated phase aligning. but it's an additional tool. though you lose the tail of the kick.

[@robbeservaes3625]

One last tip could be to shorten your kick. The kick is used to get punch, it doesn't have to last long. By shortening the kick when layering it on top of the 808, it will just be there for some nice punch and not interfere with the rest of the 808

[@AutPen38]

Kick and bass have worked together for decades, but they used to be tuned or filtered higher than they are today with modern bass-heavy music. Mixing a kick drum with an 808-style sub-bass is quite a modern phenomenon. Since there is a taste for these sounds, rather than the old fashioned idea of keeping kick and bass entirely separate in the frequency ranges, sidechaining or fake sidechaining has evolved to prevent the issues caused by having two instruments sharing the same frequencies in a way that can cause phasing or distortion problems.

[@AutPen38]

I mean, you didn't have tracks that had kick and bass fighting over the 55Hz region back in the '80s, because no one listened to some with loads of sub-100Hz bass. When most music was made for vinyl and radio play on cheap transistors, all the low end was rolled off, so you wouldn't have even been able to hear the lowest sounds from an 808 or a clubby kick.

[@cornoc]

@@AutPen38 that's true

[@Jamieamusic]

Another ace edit Sol!

[@leyo_music]

For trap, i like to sidechain not by 100% but maybe like 50, and then use some soft clipping and slight distortion to bake the 2 sounds together

[@KK-----]

always great content sol state

[@jerefreeman2488]

Great video, I too am obsessed with kick and 808 relationships. Could you please tell me the oscilloscope your using in the video. Thanks

[@SolStateMusic]

SCHope and SMexoscope :)

[@jerefreeman2488]

@@SolStateMusic Thank you!

[@MaxSimsMusic]

Manual sidechain with a gain plugin is probably the best way even though it is more time consuming

[@8teenOfficial]

Sol you goated for this. Thank you Oliver!!!

[@AURofficial]

Artists with great knowledge and understanding would always say, "There's no right or wrong way to do music, sometimes things work sometimes they don't work"

[@ErickT_MX]

Another one to try proposed by Jaycen Joshua... sidechain using Soothe...

[@royaltweedy8904]

Kenny beats right now: 👀👀👀👀

[@chocolatemoose7761]

I thought Oliver had broken up? I'm glad they're still around and making music.

[@PaulEubanks]

It's just Vaughn now

[@chocolatemoose7761]

@@PaulEubanks Got cha! Thanks

[@POWPLANET]

As Kenny stated, he was high af

[@tumpperi3891]

This is how music should be done: Deciding what you as a musician think sounds good and roll with it. Not just blindly slapping effects or production techniques, because you watched a tutorial.

[@TheImproponibile]

Thanks sol for uplodaing this. My sister will be yours.

[@Bluemoonjellyfishh]

What is this program and how do I start learning? I want to get into sound production

[@sebbosebbo9794]

thx...gratis tut style....short on point...stable nailed...

[@S.o.13]

much apprecciated

[@briandavidofficial]

Turns out, it it sounds good, it's good. 😂 Big shoutout to Oliver and SolState!

[@isetpeoplaflame5936]

idk, dry with the limiter will often scramble your transient and phase

[@4threcords]

I didn't get the sidechain method..😐 it would be great if he done it using the default Ableton compressor.

[@TyDortonemusic]

Damn why Kenny beats reply to his tweet like that?

[@gomesdiogo]

Wehbba show in some video that if you use a combination it might sound more natural than one tool, he uses a volume automation like kickstart and a sidechain after, both shaving just a bit

[@jorgeclavijo3813]

how you setup the s(m)exoscope to just show the scope without the knobs??

[@SolStateMusic]

video editing

[@josepapiii]

But.. but Kenny beats said...

[@MartinDellaNina]

SolState, I'm in love with you.

[@bigal.sound4875]

That lo cut thing sounds like there's some noticeable phasing

[@MatsuriKazamaki]

Can’t you just slightly gate the 808 to the kick too cuz I already figured this method out last year

[@SuperHamLightning]

Really prefer when the kick hits clips. Sounds heavy af

[@JohnPaulBuce]

thanks dude, all of my mix are distorted af 💀

[@devinwright3276]

Y2K did a short clip on why volume automation method sounds best across all platforms.

[@anthonymetcalf660]

You know what would be really nice? A plugin that isolates only the frequencies that are amplified by summing the two sounds and limits only those frequencies.

[@MiljanaFabio]

Put the 2 samples in a stack, add a multiband compressor with a super high ratio and set the region to whatever is causing the clipping.

[@anthonymetcalf660]

@@MiljanaFabio That works really well but I'm talking about something even more precise. Multiband is really just either highpass, lowpass, or bandpass with the crossovers set precisely, however the sounds themselves are more complex than a region on the spectrum. There are plugins that can do it but you have to compensate for quite a bit of latency. I'm talking about something that can isolate specific frequency collisions like a good multi-track analyzer can with very little latency. I would just do it myself but I don't know a lick of C++ or any language and it's not exactly an easy task even for someone who does.

[@MiljanaFabio]

Wavesfactory Trackspacer. Adds latency but pretty much does what you’re talking about.

[@robbeservaes3625]

I think something like soothe2 in sidechain mode can come close to what you're describing

[@grantgibbs4803]

the only one I would prolly never do it the phase align...... it causes too much bowtie unless you get it really really tight

[@somaticjet2717]

Mr bill method is just chop a new transient on dry with no xfade or phase align. Just split the clips

[@danking1172]

Problem with abletons limiter is that when you export audio it can have micro peaks higher than what you set

[@MiljanaFabio]

Pretty much all limiters have this including fabfilter. Intersample peaking.

[@danking1172]

@@MiljanaFabio ahh

[@kakapolove3548]

legend!!!!🔥🔥

[@killsammusic]

crossfade and sidechain are doing pretty much the same thing, and are the best sounding ones, but the listener won't notice shit either way

[@bathanhnguyen202]

KSHMR vs Oliver - who is the king of Splice?

[@alainlechevreuil4966]

oliver 100% now kshmr sound like old edm

[@AundoMusic]

How tf did he move the audio inside of the clip like that at 1:15? I forgot how to do it lol

[@antoniog2854]

what the metering / graphic plug in he uses to view the waveforms called?

[@yuulian4776]

It's called Schope and it's free. It's an Oscilloscope :)

[@timspiker]

"Finishes debate once and forever" Comments: *Starts Debating*

[@biiktoe]

me listening on my phone speaker: ah yes, i hear the difference

[@Otakutaanger]

after listening for like the 1000th time I'm pretty sure the MB side chain sounds best since it keeps the energy of the transient without it clipping.

[@AutPen38]

Using multiband makes logical sense to me, as it's only the clashing low frequencies that need to duck out ofthe way of the kick's transient, but it's just an extra bid of fiddling with an extra plugin that you have to do. I'm sure it's worthwhile to do once you've got the knack of it though.

[@TrinCZ]

Super video

[@jonnytjams]

Anyone know of a plug like schOPE that works for Pro Tools (AAX) without a wrapper?

[@BurritoBrooks]

I cannot watch this at the gym. I completely stopped working out haha

[@maximboe]

Try Sidechaining just the lows with Trackspacer or Soothe 2. Best next to drawing out volume automation.

[@rebirth4119]

For those who aren't aware sidechain doesn't mean having a volume pumping effect. It just merely means to duck one sound in terms of volume when another sound is playing. I multiband sidechain so that my sidechain isn't really audible and just lets my kick and snare not be covered by mud. If you're not going to sidechain the entire sound then at least sidechain the sub bass.

[@CarlitoBTS]

Dry with a limiter 💪 that’s how do it!

[@superdopesamples]

I usually don’t do anything 😂or just use a kick that sounds like an 808

[@jethroteece4750]

Fr 😂

[@akashboinpally9228]

God bless you

[@Electric597]

anybody know what exact 808 sample he used, that shit sounded like no spinz ive ever heard

[@nomadfc4342]

I don't even use 808 cuz i don't like 'em But I'll still watch the video 🗿

[@auxqualia8591]

Subscribed

[@SolStateMusic]

Thanks. Hope you learn a lot :)

[@rickshaw35]

Anyone know what ableton skin he uses?

[@ezknobingtweaks5723]

default dark with color gradient thing in setting i think

[@SolStateMusic]

It's not a skin, he just adjusted the default colors.

[@lxfks517]

the moral of the story is that it depends on the track

[@ughhh7700]

Why not just turn them both down a bit so they don’t clip but still do what they’re supposed to do instead of sacrificing either one of their purposes?

[@beatsbyrooz2632]

by compensating for the extreme transient instead of controlling it, you're inevitably going to lessen everything else around it. The growl at the tail becomes a lot quieter, maybe the thud also becomes more dull. Stacking two transients on top of each other when they're both essentially doing the same thing doesn't make much sense to me... if the 808 transient is so kick-y that it becomes a problem, then do you even need another kick? Or, if you prefer the sound of your kick over the transient on the 808, why aren't you simply prioritising the attack of the kick, and using one of the methods demonstrated in this video to duck out the less-desirable 808 transient? tl;dr turning both down just means you get a boring version of both - make a damn decision

[@ughhh7700]

@@beatsbyrooz2632 ​ you aren’t really making either one boring, if you don’t like making the end quitter, which you aren’t really doing - use some compression or distortion to bring it back up. Also u said the right thing if the 808 is to kick-y - why use the kick? The problem is mostly in the sound selection. Turn both down so they don’t clip and get the right sounds so it doesn’t sound boring to you. The kick and the bass should be going well together, not making either one or both sound worse. If you have to side chain something or cross fade them - that means you don’t like the samples u chose or the way they sound together and now you’re just altering the samples, you’re in general compensating for the lack of good samples or poor sound selection. Unless you r specifically going for a certain sound, then obviously whatever you want and sounds good to you is what you should use. But this topic in general seems to me like trying to come up with a solution for a problem that shouldn’t even occur. *when it is a problem and isn’t intended

[@beatsbyrooz2632]

@@ughhh7700 exactly

[@jfklmk13447]

SHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESH

[@sumrandomguy4860]

If it sounds good, it sounds good, case closed