One Christian Truth Calvinists CAN'T SAY

[@Sousabird]

Sorry Calvinist friends, I was predestined to find Calvinism unconvincing.

[@wonderfulcounselor7233]

You mock God's sovereignty but without his governing decrees, you would be a lifeless mass, frozen to the spot. Nothing happens outside of the will and knowledge of the almighty.

[@wills9392]

No worries brother not everyone is elected 😂

[@Burberryharry]

@@wonderfulcounselor7233dude no one is denying God’s sovereignty. We are denying the man made creation started by John Calvin.

[@wills9392]

​@@Burberryharry Given the Sovereignty of God, can he do anything he wants to us?

[@wonderfulcounselor7233]

​@@Burberryharry You do deny God's sovereignty by believing you can twart his will. Tradional protestanism is based on Augustinian teachings. So the early church.

[@newglof9558]

"Jesus loves me, this I know As for you, debatable. If you're elect, He loves you still, but if you're not, He never will!" Calvinist Nursery Rhyme

[@kirkjungles4901]

“Jesus loves the little children, Some of the children of the world” Calvinist summer camp seems like such a drag.

[@kevincourtney7312]

Mockery is un Christlike. No one comes to me unless the Father draws them and I will raise them up on the last day. If the Father draws everyone, why make such a statement?

[@newglof9558]

@@kevincourtney7312 it's a joke dude

[@ihiohoh2708]

I’d love for someone to find where John Calvin said anything about God not loving the nonelect.

[@JC_Forum_of_Christ]

I am no Calvinist ….but Catholics…. We can do the same thing with your beliefs… just stake them next to the Word and you will see!! Shall we???

[@LukeBowman08]

being a Prot, i dont understand why it is more popular to critique Catholic ideas of salvation rather than Calvinistic ones. I still disagree with Catholics but at least we can say to anyone that God loves them so much that in order to save us from our sin be in relationship with Him, He sent His Son to die for you. great vid!

[@SDRBass]

So what do you with Romans 5:10? You’re conveniently ignoring that whole enemies of God thing.

[@ihiohoh2708]

God does love everyone, but clearly not everyone is saved. So obviously that means that God is pleased with others more. Those that have faith... That is the Calvinist view. The gospel is a genuine invitation for all. This again, is the Calvinist view. Have you ever read John Calvin's commentary on John 3:16?

[@PGBigRed]

@@SDRBass I've seen non-Christians reconcile with their enemies. No one is conveniently ignoring it. The preaching of the gospel is God's provision for us to come and be reconciled. I don't know how saying we're enemies makes this not to the effect of what the scripture is saying.

[@adamduarte895]

@@SDRBassremember how Jesus even said to love your enemies. lol would be wildly inconsistent for God to not love them even if He is love

[@SDRBass]

@@adamduarte895 But even you have to admit that God loving His Enemies and God loving His people bear out differently in the end. His enemies ultimately end up in hell!

[@bruhmingo]

Agreed, Trent. Calvinism always felt like an unnecessary solution to a non existent problem.

[@Jamienewman0]

That sounds like a description of theistic religion generally, and Catholicism in particular.

[@Jamienewman0]

@@wetfart420 I fart in your general direction. And it's wet.

[@munashemanamike4217]

​@@Jamienewman0 We beleive that Christianity is a solution for Humans to not go to hell

[@joycegreer9391]

It is the full explanation of God's plan of salvation.

[@keelanenns4548]

You mean the issue of Ephesians 1, and Roman’s 9

[@adambombdiggidy]

I never understood the appeal of Calvinism. To me, it always sounded like Protestant-flavored nihilism. Because if God only chooses his elect, then nothing we do in life matters.

[@patrickbarnes9874]

Calvinism lets you feel special for being elect. Calvinism claims to be the only true interpretation of the Bible. Calvinism claims to be rigorous for people of true faith. Calvinism is a developed philosophical system that will answer scriptural questions for you without you having to research them yourself. It's an unethical intellectually dishonest unChristian belief system, but it does have its appeal to a certain kind of person.

[@leod5609]

That's absolutely a misunderstanding of calvinism, because if indeed we are his elect, we would work out our salvation with fear and trembling. And like Micah 6:8, do justice, love mercy, and walk in Humility. Or really, love God and love our neighbours. Mine is a hot and passionate calvinism, that tries to flow out in works of love and mercy, to show an inner life, a mind renewed, filled by Christ. And in failure of it, into repentance, fully dependant on the grace of God, into a life of sanctification. We love for the glory of God alone 😁 😉

[@HorseloverFat1984]

@@patrickbarnes9874 From a psychological standpoint it appeals to convinced narcissists who actually enjoy the thought of God loving them but not loving everyone. Ginormous egomaniacs who depend on chronically feeling special.

[@keelanenns4548]

That’s a false dichotomy. The idea that not having free will=being a robot is false. We have agency, our agency or will is just limited by our sinful nature. And btw Calvinists (or as we call ourselves, reformed) are perfectly comfortable saying God loves everyone. Indeed God sent his son to die for everyone if only they would accept him as LORD. The problem is that due to our sinful nature all reject Christ, unless God creates faith within them against their sinful will. So does God love everyone? Yes, does he love them equally? Debatable. But what is certain is that he orchestrates all things for his ultimate Glory. Indeed those he leaves in their sinful rejection of him, he is glorified in punishing them for their sin, wheras those he elects for salvation, he is glorified by revealing and demonstrating his mercy to us. The rejection of the doctrines of Grace is usually founded in too high a view of man paired with too low a view of God or a lack of understanding of his Sovereignty. God would be perfectly Just if he damned all to hell for their sin and rejection of him. But because he is merciful, it has pleased him to elect some to salvation. PRAISE GOD!

[@theTavis01]

@@keelanenns4548"Indeed God sent his son to die for everyone if only they would accept him as LORD." That's not Calvinism, that's Christianity. Calvinism teaches a limited atonement. "unless God creates faith within them against their sinful will." is indeed Calvinism, and not even vaguely Christian or biblical. See the Canaanite woman in Matthew 15:21-28 "too low a view of God" oh give me a break. There is no lower view of God than to claim that no one would ever turn to God unless He forced them to against their will.

[@daughterofyeshuaa]

Thank youuu Trent!! Left Calvinism and got confirmed Easter 23’ . Praise be to Jesus Christ 🙏🏼

[@mjramirez6008]

❤❤✝✝✝✝✝✝🙏🙏

[@rooploverence]

Wow, I'm planning to do the same! But I go to a evangelical school, and I'm sure my teachers will attack me after they hear of my confirmation haha...

[@DMServant]

@@rooploverencestay strong man I’ll be praying for you!

[@joecastillo8798]

@@gracefaithCHRISTscriptureGOD Being a "calvinist" means you follow the teachings of John Calvin, against the Will of our Lord Jesus who clearly builds only one Church on Peter and says in: ▪︎JOHN 17:17-19 17. Sanctify them in TRUTH. Your word is TRUTH. 18. Just as you have sent me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19. And it is for them that I sanctify myself, so that they, too, may be sanctified in TRUTH. Then our Lord proceeds to reject any division in His one Church: ▪︎JOHN 17:21 -23 21. so that they may ALL BE ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may BE ONE, as WE ARE ONE, 23. I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to PERFECTION AS ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. No exceptions to complete unity in the Body of Christ. Our Lord Jesus solidifies His divine will of unity by praying for Peter, His one Vicar: ▪︎LUKE 22:31-32 "Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I HAVE PRAYED FOR YOU that your faith may not fail; and when you have turned again (after the denials), strengthen your brethren". May God bless your discernment.

[@joycegreer9391]

So sad for you. You are farther away from the truth of the Gospel than you were before.

[@blueberrysunday9407]

I don't know how my Catholic brothers and sisters feel about it, but as an ecumenical Christian, Calvinism is the most irritating Christian theology.

[@bradleyperry1735]

It isn’t Christian.

[@Si_Mondo]

You spelt "heretical" wrong.

[@bruhmingo]

I consider myself an ecumenical Christian too, and yeah, it’s very difficult to converse with them when you disagree.

[@bruhmingo]

@@Si_Mondoit’s not heresy, you guys are making everything worse with your extremes.

[@RedeemedCatholic]

​@@bruhmingocalvinism does contradict catholic dogmas, so it is actually heretical by definition. But then again, so does every protestant denomination

[@josephantony603]

This is what I find funny about Calvinists. They have the audacity to smear Catholics, when their theology is not only Unbiblical, but an insult to God's Divine Mercy.

[@kevincourtney7312]

How is it unBiblical? And how is praying to anyone other than God Biblical?

[@zaazazza6555]

Well, I hope we are not smearing each other. But, I think we both have to right to respectfully, yet wholeheartedly say the other is deeply in-error.

[@geoffrobinson]

Look up Aquinas and Augustine. They agree with us on the points you are trashing us over here.

[@EpoRose1]

@@kevincourtney7312define “praying.”

[@holyromanemperor420]

​@@geoffrobinson No, they don't.

[@calebpearce9334]

A settled Anabaptist here to say this video is spot on. Can’t say enough how much I appreciate that Trent did not frame this video in a Catholic vs Protestant polemic, but kept it limited to Calvinism’s most serious problem.

[@Hamann9631]

@calebpearce9334 agreed. I'm not Catholic or Protestant, so it is not an attack against me to act like all Protestants are Calvinists. Not all Protestants are Calvinists.

[@bobwood5146]

@@Hamann9631 Just the biblical ones are.

[@dakotasmith1344]

⁠@@bobwood51461 John 2:2 Explain limited atonement in light of this verse. Or of the reprobate being predestined 1 Peter, God desires all to be saved. Free will has been taught from the beginning by the early church fathers. Individual predestination was clearly an innovation by Augustine who pulled from Manichean Gnosticism.

[@ryleighloughty3307]

If you understand Calvinism, you know that it is a correct doctrine.

[@dakotasmith1344]

@@ryleighloughty3307Far from it. I’ve read enough books on it to determine that it cannot be true, simply by virtue of limited atonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints. There are verses that contradict all. Limited atonement is by far the worst and most unbiblical of the bunch. It is also straight up blasphemy. It blasphemes the character of Our Lord. And if you look at atheists, it’s telling that the reason why a good number of them hate God is because they have a Calvinist idea of God. Try Abraham Piper for instance.

[@andys3035]

I'm a former Calvinist. I remember having this same problem; I couldn't tell people God loves them. James White would likely counter that the Gospel isn't that God loves you so much, begging you to turn to him but he just can't because of the Almighty will of man, but the Gospel is a command. Yet it begs the question: if the Gospel is a command to repent, in Calvinism, God is commanding you to do something he made you unable to do, even worse, not only can you not do it, you were determined to never do it. That's not love and yes, the Gospel is all above God's love.

[@ihiohoh2708]

Question: Does the Bible command us to be perfect? Does God command us to do many things that are humanly impossible? Yes. You should know this since this was the controversy of Pelagianism. So I suggest you think about that a while. Regardless, it is not the Calvinist view that God doesn't love everyone.

[@SDRBass]

The Gospel is that you’re an enemy of God because you’ve broken His holy law but sent His Son to die for sinners so they can be reconciled. And if you repent and believe you’ll no longer be an enemy but a child. Why is this so hard for people to understand? Romans 5:10.

[@jdotoz]

@@ihiohoh2708 Humanly impossible, yes. But not divinely - and it's from divine grace that we are able to keep them.

[@gospelfreak5828]

@@ihiohoh2708 What verse says specifically perfect? We are called to obey God. We are called to be holy as God is holy. The Bible technically never states or commands for us to be perfect. The Bible has commands, and we can follow said commands if we let the Holy Spirit do the work in our lives. If we accept Jesus and escape the bondage of slavery sin had over us and instead become slaves to Christ, we can obey his commandments. We see even unbelievers will pick and choose which commands from God to obey. So, obedience is possible. Doing the right instead of the wrong thing is possible, even for our depraved selves to do to some degree. God telling people who can't repent to repent makes zero sense. With every commandment in the Bible other than that one, we all say we are responsible as we at least had a choice to do otherwise. God says don't stab someone with a knife, and we can either choose to stab or not stab. That is not equivalent to God telling a person to repent, but they can only not repent.

[@ihiohoh2708]

@@gospelfreak5828 Matthew 5:48

[@gijoe508]

Former Calvinist who was predestined to find the truth of the Catholic faith

[@robertortiz-wilson1588]

❤

[@nonpossenonpeccare9104]

Thomistic predestination is basically the same as Calvinism so you can still hold to things like unconditional election even as a Catholic. A thomist would say you would have to cooperate with Grace, yet in order to cooperate God needs to give effectual grace for you to cooperate. Monergism, but not directly stated

[@RCEmichaelreavey]

Alleluia! Thanks be to God. Fratteli tutti Para 15

[@jambangoni]

Same

[@maumaukiddoDuddu]

@nonpossenonpeccare9104 The only problem is that in Catholicism, God's grace is offered to all people. Not only a group of elected. The person decides to answer to God's call or not.

[@ArthurAndSons]

Thank you Trent. Much love and respect from the Philippines ❤️🇵🇭🇻🇦Viva Cristo Rey

[@sakoffie1138]

I grew up with evangelical parents and cultural Calvinism, now I'm Catholic. Just remember though, you must pray for Calvinists. I love Calvinists, because I was once one of them and I belong to a Calvinist ethnic group.

[@deutschermichel5807]

Calvinist ethnicity?

[@sakoffie1138]

@@deutschermichel5807 My ethnic group's culture is heavily influenced by Calvinism

[@alqoshgirl]

Well that’s a first… ethnic group? That makes no sense since it’s a religion. Not being from a specific ethnic region

[@sakoffie1138]

@@alqoshgirl Yes, well we associate Islam with Arabs, so in the same way I'm associating it with my own people, since our culture is heavily influenced by Calvinism. It's almost as if being 'my people' makes you qualify for Calvinism.

[@KRGruner]

@@sakoffie1138 Iranians are Muslims but not Arabs. Same for Indonesians. Any questions?

[@calebcrawford2520]

Although I’m not a Catholic (I’m a nondenominational Christian), I’m very thankful you uploaded this video. I used to be a Calvinist and I’m so thankful I’m not anymore. God bless.

[@stephenjohnson7915]

Calvinism is a system held by those who want you to be impressed that they have the courage and intellect to accept such a “hard” teaching.

[@IAmisMaster]

Islam also has “hard” teaching, like striking one’s wife is somehow okay and Allah is so powerful he can do things that are illogical. But turns…it’s “hard” because its’s utterly irrational and goes against Scripture.

[@RachelDee]

You know, that’s pretty slanderous and offensive towards your own brethren. And not the good kind of spiritual, truthful offensiveness.

[@bradleyperry1735]

@@RachelDeeCalvinists aren’t Christians, so whose brethren are they?

[@newglof9558]

@@RachelDee seeing a lot of Calvinsts "how-dare-you"ing in these comments

[@ihiohoh2708]

@@bradleyperry1735 I didn’t realize God gave you the ability to judge souls.

[@Starrboy94]

As a convinced Protestant this is where I have to say the Catholic Church is correct. Calvinism seems to oversimplify the sovereignty of God to a necessary Omni-causal attribute of God rather than a Lordship he has over all things. In the one hand God is free to offer salvation on whatever conditions He sees fit in accordance to His perfect and pleasing will. But when in His Word He specifically says His love and Grace is freely offered to all and Salvation to all who believe I struggle to understand how anyone can be a 5 point Calvinist. To my Protestant brothers and sisters please consider the pastoral effects of adopting such a position when it comes to our evangelistic efforts.

[@nicholaswade1215]

I completely understand where you're coming from. But I think George Whitefield, Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, RC Sproul, William Carey, and Adoniram Judson pretty much debunk the idea that calvinist evangelism is awkward or ineffective. I'm a calvinist and I care deeply about evangelism because it is an honor to be a tool for Christ in reaching His elect. As Paul said it "For this reason I endure all things for the sake of the elect, so that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

[@WC3isBetterThanReforged]

@@nicholaswade1215 But if someone is in the elect do they need to be evangelized too? His grace is irresistible so logically the elect will be drawn to God without evangelism. If they are not in the elect, no amount of evangelism will bring them to God.

[@ProgressNotesTH]

Can’t his “irresistible grace” come through someone’s evangelism?

[@ThomasHJ15]

@@WC3isBetterThanReforged Yes, exactly. It may be true that Calvinist evangelism has often been effective, and that the tradition has contributed significantly to the growth of Christianity. (I would counter that the same can be said of the Arian heresy during the 4th-6th centuries). However, this success is in spite of their theology, and a testament to the character of those individuals, not to their teaching.

[@zacharyahearn4069]

@@nicholaswade1215Even then aren’t you assuming some level of a need for cooperation?

[@DanOcchiogrosso-uj4be]

The three men pictured on the video thumbnail each stared ministries that have brought the gospel of John 3:16 to countless people around the world. I have personally heard all three express the need for believers to evangelize. But when people come to Christ through the gospel message, they also teach believers that they didn’t repent because of how smart or pious they were; rather because God chose them in grace. We have no problem admitting that the fullness of Trinity is a mystery beyond our human understanding. Why does it have to be “inconsistent“ for human responsibility and God’s sovereignty to coexist? Simply because our human minds don’t fully grasp it?

[@robertlewis6915]

Fair point! Though honestly the problem of reconciling human responsibility and divine sovereignty rests on a Biblically unjustified assertion that responsibility requires complete autonomy of choice. Once this presupposition is recognized and discarded, the contradiction disappears.

[@adamcharleshovey7105]

Calvinism "Damned if you do, damned if you don't".

[@jomidiam]

Also Calvinism: Saved if you do, saved if you don't.

[@nonpossenonpeccare9104]

That’s a caricature, but why didn’t you say “thomism” instead of Calvinism? You know they are virtually the same right? And you kmow Thomistic predestination is allowed to be held in the Church right?

[@adamcharleshovey7105]

@@jomidiam That's not God's sovereignty, that's man's arrogance. The God that Calvinism believes in has more in common with the Islamic view of God, than the traditional Christian view of God. Jesus Christ died for ALL men. "For God so loved the WORLD", doesn't mean, "except these guys". It means THE WORLD.

[@MichaelKlaassen-n6m]

you are caricaturing

[@ToxicallyMasculinelol]

I wonder if that saying comes from Calvinism lol

[@EpoRose1]

“God loves you… maybe… we’ll see…”

[@wonderfulcounselor7233]

Holy, holy, holy is the lord God almighty who was, is, and is to come. Be ye Holy, for I am Holy. So it appears the almightys chief characteristic is his holiness.

[@jdotoz]

"God might love you, but if you don't at least pretend that he does then he definitely doesn't, so you should still go through the motions."

[@amartinez589]

"God loves you, you can get to heaven... maybe... if you do the right things... we'll see"

[@UltriLeginaXI]

@@amartinez589 Pop culture Christianity be like

[@jimhughes1070]

😭😭😭🤣🤣🤣👍💪🙏

[@JonLucPritchard]

Number one thing Calvinists can't say is Worcestershire sauce

[@ToddJambon]

I don't remember any of this in Calvin and Hobbes.

[@chefEmersonWilliams]

Haha. And yet, Watterson said that he created Calvin to be a figure somewhat inspired by John Calvin. And Hobbes, after the eponymous philosopher, also.

[@EpoRose1]

Being from Pittsburgh, I do remember them contemplating whether going to Pittsburgh after you die was reward or punishment.

[@robertortiz-wilson1588]

Lol

[@eduardohoover2127]

​@@EpoRose1when the Steelers Pirates and Penguins are winning it sounds like heaven to me!

[@TheGamingEvangelist]

😂

[@mrjustadude1]

My FIL is a convinced Calvinist and it has lead to him becoming a worse and worse person over the years. Hes convinced he does bad things because hes a bad person, hes a bad person because of total depravity. Since there is no free will he can't change that. God can "make him" do things or whatever but he doesn't personally think he needs to work at it. What this has mean is that hes gone from doing "good works" (or just being a nice person) when he feels like it, ie when he feels compelled by God to do them and doesnt the rest of the time. Over the years he does less and less. According to those who have known him long enough hes declined steadly over 20-30 years to the point where you have a man in his 60s with the self discipline of a teenager. Its sad to see someone reach that point in their life and have spent almost no effort on virtue. I'm not saying every calvinist is like him but he sure feels justified in the way he is based on his reading of calvin, john MacArthur and RC. In fact he watched the "no maverick molecule" rc talk like its his creed. Hes even go so far as to say stuff like "God does not love everyone" Anyway, please pray that his heart be softened and pray for me a sinner.

[@Hamann9631]

@mrjustadude1 condolences. What is a FIL? And I prayed for your FIL.

[@mrjustadude1]

@@Hamann9631 it's short for Father Inlaw, my wife's dad. Thanks for the prayers!

[@robertlewis6915]

Your friend clearly only understands a caricature of Calvinism. I'd recommend he study the work of Louis Berkhof (Manual of Christian Doctrine in particular) and research the historic position of the Reformers on regeneration (also Calvin on good works in his ). See, total depravity is the base state of humanity. All humans do evil. Their nature is not an excuse, however. If an evil nature justified evil actions, it would not be evil. No, man still has a duty to honor God. Yet here I speak only of those whom are unsaved. Regeneration is the replacing of man's sinful heart with a heart turned towards God, a heart capable of, by God's grace, good deeds. Regeneration means the believer is no longer dead in sin, is no longer totally/ radically depraved. The believer is under mercy; he no longer need fear eternal judgement for his sin. Does this render the law non-applicable? No! Paul answers this idea in Romans; he declares most emphatically that the Christian is still to follow the law, but he is to follow the law out of love for God. Indeed, if we go by James or John, a Christian who lives a life that does not seek after His law (not merely sinning but delighting/ making a habitual choice of sin/ showing little to no guilt, perhaps merely pro forma) is indeed not a Christian at all; he never was on (1 John 2:19, I believe). If your description is accurate, and bearing in mind the distance, the impossibility of man fully knowing man's heart, I fear your friend sounds to be reprobate, unsaved, a man deluded by his sin into trusting in a gospel which cannot save. Please, help him to understand Scripture; consider the doctrine of regeneration, of sanctification; he must see and repent of his sin, not merely blame it on an evil nature (for the evil nature is he himself). God doesn't love everyone- He hates Satan; He hates evildoers (Ps. 5:5).

[@Hamann9631]

@@robertlewis6915 , mrjustadude1 never said anything about a friend. He described his experiences. He described things he saw. Why would I want to learn more about a tree giving bad fruit? How was the father in law misunderstanding Calvinism? That is the relevant question you must answer to convince us that the person was not bad because of T.U.L.I.P.

[@robertlewis6915]

@@Hamann9631 I read FIL as friend for some unknown reason. I explained how he was misunderstanding it: he is ignoring that 1) you're still responsible for what you do and 2) if you believe in Christ, you're regenerate and therefore capable of doing truly good works.

[@hermanessences]

As John Wesley (founder of Methodism) said: Calvinism portrays God as worse than the devil

[@JP-rf8rr]

Don't know where he said that, but Wesley also said he's "hair’s breadth’ from Calvin" because he actually agrees with Calvin on almost everything besides predestination.

[@hermanessences]

@@JP-rf8rr Besides predestination? Predestination is an extremely essential issue.

[@JP-rf8rr]

@hermanessences So is christology, eschatology, doctrine of God, doctrine of justification etc. Calvinism isn't just predestination. James white and John MacArthur disagree with 90% of calvin's theology, which seems to make Wesley closer to calvin than MacArthur. Heck, I'd argue Aquinas is closer than MacArthur.

[@jacobpotts7954]

@@JP-rf8rrhow do White and MacArthur disagree with Calvin? I’m curious. Aren’t they 5-point Calvinists?

[@JP-rf8rr]

@jacobpotts7954 Because the five points are just about predestination and calvinist theology is more than predestination. It's like how someone could believe in Transubstantiation but disagree with most of Catholic theology.

[@Electric_]

When my parents converted to Protestantism, I became a Calvinist as a young teenager because out of all the Protestant ideologies I thought it was the only complete one that did make sense. I would defend it until I got older and joined the military, even though I found it ghoulish. I had the John MacArthur study Bible, and I even bought a big ol’ Institutes of the Christian religion. I made good friends with Calvinist apologists and speakers in my home city and State. But when I joined the Army I quickly returned to Catholicism. Frankly, John Calvin had no authority to stand on to declare what is Christian truth, and it ran counter to almost all Christian tradition. You cannot find Church Fathers or really any Christians until Calvin’s time promoting some of the things he believed. You find some arch heretics, but not Christians. And these heretics believed other things too that Calvinists would agree make them heretics. The other reason I rejected Reformed Theology, or Calvinism, is because frankly it’s counter to the Bible’s portrayal of God’s goodness. RC Sproul claimed that God shows his love for everyone in a clip in this video by allowing them to live, but at the same time allowing them enter into a situation upon death that causes them to curse the day they were born, really nullifying any goodness they experienced in life. Most normal people will rightly find Calvinism monstrous. And this is also reflected in the character of John Calvin, who was a tyrant and killed children for crimes not remotely approaching justifiable capital punishment. The Catholic Church says God wants all men to be saved, and gives every one of them a fair and obtainable shot at salvation. Some may have more grace than others (for example St. Mary), but everyone is able within their own power to turn from evil and turn to God. This God is fair and loving, and you don’t have to do any backflips to justify portions of Scripture to jive with it. It is inline with the universal teaching of Christianity from its earliest days.

[@chefEmersonWilliams]

Hear, hear!

[@robertortiz-wilson1588]

So very well said!

[@nonpossenonpeccare9104]

Augustine and Thomists are heretics??? Mate, Thomistic predestination is virtually the as same Calvinism, and a Catholic is allowed to hold Thomistic predestination. John Calvin and Thomas Aquinas are in fundamental agreement on predestination, including all subsequent Calvinists and Thomists. Just because Trent Horn and the likes make these videos, cause they are allowed to critique these ideas, doesn’t mean that ideas like unconditional election are impermissible for a catholic

[@fantasia55]

​@@nonpossenonpeccare9104 Augustine and Thomas were Catholic priests. Calvin would have had them burned at the stake.

[@Electric_]

@@nonpossenonpeccare9104 it’s completely different. I suggest Tom Nash’s article “Augustine Had It Right; Calvin Did Not” on Catholic Answers.

[@ChrisBurton-mf3gk]

Since Calvinism is false, it would have to be one of the most repugnant theological constructs ever because it gravely misrepresents and distorts the character of God.

[@wonderfulcounselor7233]

How does it distort the character of God?

[@Si_Mondo]

​@@wonderfulcounselor7233It makes Him out to be an arbitrary despot.... which He isn't.

[@kevinjypiter6445]

It makes God the author of evil. He determines every sin we commit. For example, if someone cheats on their wife, they could say “sorry, God made me do it”. And that would be true, because Calvinism teaches God did do it.

[@deutschermichel5807]

​@@kevinjypiter6445sounds islamic to me

[@wonderfulcounselor7233]

@@kevinjypiter6445 God is not the author of sin and no protestant would claim that. The source of sin, is the human heart. And I don't accept that God forces us to sin, we choose to sin.

[@Musingnotes]

My family started going to a Bible church a few months ago. Just a few weeks in, the pastor preached a Calvinistic sermon. We considered staying, even though we are not Calvinists, but I ultimately realized I cannot be in a church who is incapable of truthfully telling my children that Jesus died for them. We are still on a journey to find our home, but this experience has led me to investigate Catholicism.

[@joecastillo8798]

@amandanesvig8567 Amanda, If you believe the Bible is The Word of God, you do because Pope Damasus I, at the end of the Council of Rome of 382AD, declared the 73 book compendium chosen by the Council: "Divine Scripture" or "Word of God". For more details search Council of Rome, Decree of Damasus, Catholic. God bless.

[@nathancjarrett]

I tried remaining in a Calvinists church as a non-Calvinist, but found it to be impossible. Yes, raising kids in a church where God's love is warped by this doctrine is one of the things I wanted to avoid as well. My family now attends a Calvary Chapel church, and my wife is happier there then we've been in many years I hope the Spirit guides you to a good church home where you can joyfully serve and grow with other believers.

[@joecastillo8798]

@@nathancjarrett Nathan, I would like to suggest that you learn more about the Catholic Church founded by Christ. If you have doubts, ask your celular phone: Who founded the Catholic Church? God bless.

[@OneForChrist177]

Investigate confessional Lutherans. I found Lutheranism to be very comforting. A love for Christ and his commands.

[@joecastillo8798]

@@OneForChrist177 The word "Lutheranism" literally describes it of human origin; not God's will of unity according to: MATTHEW 16:18 18. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build MY CHURCH, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. MY CHURCH = ONE In case you doubt it, our Lord makes it even clearer for you: JOHN 17:21-23 21. so that they MAY ALL BE ONE, as you, Father, are in me and I in you, that they also may be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me. 22. And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they may BE ONE, as WE ARE ONE, 23. I in them and you in me, that they may be brought to PERFECTION AS ONE, that the world may know that you sent me, and that you loved them even as you loved me. Do you read "Lutheranism" any where? Ian, our Lord Jesus, who is God, commands His Church to be ONE single united Church to be led by His chosen leadership with Peter as its head assisted by the other Apostles who, after their death, would also be replaced by authorized successors through the very clear biblical method of imposition of hands, as described in Acts and as practiced in the Old Covenant, which means NO ONE can invent another ministry, "Protestant" or otherwise. Such action would be in opposition to our Lord's clearly expressed Will. May God bless your discernment.

[@bluecomb5376]

I only wish this could be a discussion with Allie Beth Stuckey. Still hoping for that dialogue.

[@TheThreatenedSwan]

She's very willfully ignorant

[@homeschoolwell]

I think it’s happening tomorrow

[@PatrickSteil]

The way I look at Calvinists is that they seem to Worship their ideas of Gods sovereignty rather than Worshipping God Himself. Anytime you hyper focus on one aspect of God you may find yourself contradicting another aspect of God.

[@alisterrebelo9013]

Astute observation, thank you.

[@justinking3558]

You put into words what I have been vaguely thinking my protestant friend is doing. Definitely screenshotting this so I can remember. Such and odd hyperfixation on an aspect of God. Tho my friend is very prone to hyperfixating on a principle he has just come to understand

[@alisterrebelo9013]

@@justinking3558 Reading your comment helped me understand why Judaism and Islam can be bedfellows. Both hyperfixate on a narrow understanding of the "oneness of God".

[@soldadillo]

I’ve known several Calvinists in bible college, they seemed almost to worship themselves at times……at the very least they always made it clear they thought they were legends….

[@TheMOV13]

It's true that they tend to think they are the only ones who believe in the sovereignty of God, exclusive rights, as it were.

[@musicarroll]

Secular humanist: I'm ok, you're ok. Calvinist: I'm ok, you're not ok. Catholic: I'm not ok, you're not ok, but that's ok, because God loves you and wants you to cooperate with his grace to become more ok.

[@KevinSmile]

All of the protestant traditions that reject Calvin's teachings also believe that

[@tpnbrown]

In the spirit of good exegesis, it would have been nice to have seen a more rounded response including many of the passages which lend themselves nicely to the Calvinist position. I would be interested to see Trent's response to those more tricky passages which are held by Calvinists.

[@FrJohnBrownSJ]

At 3:30 he touches on this a little. He gives some basic sense of how to interpret the rest correctly. He also counters Calvin's counter with the saving passengers on a sinking ship example. I think Calvinists have the burden of proof since Calvinism wasn't held by Christians for the first 1500 years. Doctrine can develop, certainly, but the development needs the explanation, especially if the claim is that the Bible clearly teaches it.

[@christophlindinger2267]

Basically it's just Romans 9, no? The verses they base their theology on are completely taken out of context.

[@EmilTennis00]

Did you know that Augustine and Aquinas teach Unconditional election? ​@@FrJohnBrownSJ

[@nathancjarrett]

​@@christophlindinger2267I am a Protestant who has departed from Calvinism. I would say most of the Calvy/Reformed doctrine hinges on their interpretation of Romans 9 and John 6. Ephesians 1 is also one of their big 'proof texts'. Most of the other 15-20 proof texts are less vital and are basically interpreted in light of how they view the doctrines outlined in John 6 and Romans 9. And yes, I agree with you they are not handling these passages correctly.

[@christophlindinger2267]

@@nathancjarrett used to be Lutheran but looked into Calvinism (reformed Baptist) since in Africa where I live now, denominations are quite different from what I was used to from Germany. Long story short, am Catholic now. I love the letter to the Ephesians, and honestly I think a lot of Catholics do not fully understand and embrace it and are semi pelagians unfortunately.

[@alissarehmert2502]

I am a new convert from Calvinism (going to be confrimed this Easter). I am the only Catholic in my entire family. Many of my relatives are Calvinist theologians, so that makes Christmas interesting. Lol! Trent, how would you respond to Calvinists who say that God loves everyone and wills that everyone be saved, but He knows that everyone would not choose Him even if He gave them the choice. So, He predestines those who would have chosen Him and damns those who would have denied him. In my Calvinist circles, this is how they try to both accept universal love while also rejecting free-will. I think I know how you might respond, but I'd love to hear you go into it.

[@benjamincolson]

That sounds like the middle knowledge Molonist theory of predestination, not Calvinist or even Thomist predestination.

[@alissarehmert2502]

​​​@@benjamincolsonwell, it is still double predestination because they say you have absolutely no free will and God chooses who goes to heaven/Hell without your actual consent. In Molinism you still have free will, it just happens to work out with God's pre- knowledge. In this case, they say we absolutely don't have free will, but that God predestines those who would have chosen him if they had a choice (but they absolutely don't and couldn't because of their total depravity). Basically, God cuts out the middle man and chooses for you based on what you would have chosen in a world without the stain of original sin, even though that isn't how things really are. They'd also say you can't lose your salvation because of this, even if you wanted to (but if you wanted to, that just means that you were never saved). I see the similarities to Molinism, though I think it's a little different. It is like they want to be Molinist, but absolutely do not want to say we have free will or a choice at all...but they also don't wanna make God sound like a jerk.

[@amakrid]

My friend, the Calvinists have a point: If God is all-knowing and foreknows who will fall and who will be saved, then by that simple fact, people are not free to choose - there is a mechanism that leads them to choice, which is known to God. Then comes the belief that man alone cannot choose the narrow path, since his physical inclination is to live according to his fallen nature. So, how come that some people follow Jesus and some not? They were chosen by the "fisher of men". Scholasticism cannot but lead to this conclusion.

[@alissarehmert2502]

@@amakrid knowing something will happen does not mean that you cause it to happen. I think that's important to remember in this conversation.

[@amakrid]

@@alissarehmert2502 Of course these are two different concepts. But I don't really get what you mean with that. Correct me if I'm wrong but I haven't heard that Calvinism teaches that God causes the men to sin and thus lose salvation (with the exception of some men, like the Pharaoh, whose heart was hardened by God). What they teach is that God causes some elect to turn to him. Many people have been troubled with those concepts, you know, even among the Church Fathers. For instance, wasn't God's beauty enough to earn the devotion of Adam? And if not, what guarantees that there won't be another Fall after the Resurrection? Etc. etc.. Calvin was a misanthrop for sure, but he wasn't illiterate at all... In my opinion, you can't find a solution in the frame of scholasticism. The Eastern Church's concept of Hell seems to me the only solution to the problem, and it is plane and simple: We will all be in the same place, but some will experience God's presence as a blessing and some as a curse. But again, who knows?

[@billyhw5492]

"God does not love everybody." -- Best summation of Calvinism ever.

[@ihiohoh2708]

Except that's not what Calvinists believe, and it's a straw man. The only people that would say such a thing aren't even following traditional Calvinism. Calvin even said the opposite. Calvinists do believe God loves everybody, just His people more. I would say that is quite impossible to disagree with. Otherwise, everyone would be in Heaven if we're all equally loved.

[@joycegreer9391]

No, that's a lie about Calvinism.

[@joycegreer9391]

@@WeLiveInside7 Still, that doesn't mean hate like humans mean hate. God did bless Esau and made him into a great nation. God chose Jacob and not Esau.

[@robertlewis6915]

Have you read the Psalms? Psalm 5? Psalm 137? Psalm 73? Psalm 119? I speak only a small thing here; consider Korah, who was swallowed by the earth, or Nadab and Abihu, who died before God, or Pharoah, whom God hardened so that he drowned, or Herod, who blasphemed and died when his gut burst open in worms, or Satan (need I say more).

[@rolfeliason5950]

God so loved the world, not God so loved the elect. Will the Calvinist please explain the word whosoever? The most famous verse in the Bible declares Calvinism to be exactly what the apostle Paul referred to in Galatians 1:9. "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

[@casualminecrafter2174]

I'm a calvinist. Yes, whosoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life. Was I supposed to say something else?

[@redeemedzoomer6053]

I know I'm planning to have a discussion in person with Trent Horn soon, but my response to this video is that this video isn't really relevant to the classical Calvinism of the Reformers. The fact that 2/3 of the "Calvinists" on the thumbnail are Baptists, one of whom is a Nestorian heretic, indicates that this is more relevant to Calvinistic Baptists than traditional Reformed theology. Here's why: According to traditional Reformed theology, we can say that God loves all and desires all to be saved. The only reason some are not saved is because without God intervening, their hearts will be too hardened against God to accept the salvation that is universally offered. To learn HISTORIC Calvinism, read the Scots Confession by John Knox. It's very easy and short. Also this video is inaccurate: According to Calvin and all the other Reformers, people to not go to hell BECAUSE they are non-elect. They go to hell only based on their own sin and rejection of God. It's just that the non-elect will not have their wills re-oriented from outside by God to accept God's universal offer. God bless!

[@omarrenteria8197]

Well said brother. This video does not represent the historical view of reformed theology.

[@WillGaylord]

The way Calvinism gets lawered to me makes it sound like they are trying really hard to over-intellectualize it so as to make it sound maximally culty and unappealing

[@thelonelysponge5029]

I dont get it, its practically the same

[@dakotasmith1344]

The main problem remains. If God could save everyone by forcibly regenerating them (which according to Calvinism always works), why wouldn’t He? Wouldn’t He force everyone to receive regeneration and be saved by faith versus melting in Gehenna for eternity? Or does at least some people going to Gehenna glorify God more than all being saved? Keep in mind that people are chosen randomly (not based on their responsiveness or merit), so the elect are not actually better than anyone else in any way (and could even be worse). It’s utter nonsense, and it makes God to be little different from Satan. The only difference is that God only wants some people to go to Gehenna. Also, God is the only evil one since Satan does what He wants him to. God becomes the author of evil. It’s arguably blasphemy, even if unintentional. The theology is abhorrent, and I have no idea why it is so popular especially among new converts (young, reformed, restless). Probably because they don’t know enough yet to see through the likes of Piper and MacArthur. I’m a Protestant, and I would consider Cath/Ortho an acceptable alternative to Calvinism (which does not represent all of Reformed theology). Even with all the differences, at least they have a better idea of God’s character.

[@omarrenteria8197]

@@dakotasmith1344 don’t forget that the doctrine of man will affect your view of God/proper theology. God would still be loving if He never sent a Savior to die for us. He would still be Holy Holy Holy if He would’ve just sent everyone to hell. Because we all sin, sin is a very serious thing (which is why the holiness of God by RC is a book I recommend to everyone.) reformed (biblical) theology takes all the word of Scripture and makes it coherent with all the passages that has been given to us. God in His word shows us that He creates vessels of wrath and of mercy, this is based on whatever His good will desires to be. And no one can say God of the Universe has done wrong when they end up in hell.. some receive justice and some receive divine grace… Scripture doesn’t speak about the liberty that Adam or Satan had. Reformed people believe they had a free will that was tainted without sin, but we don’t know for sure how their fall came about but we know that God isn’t the author of evil. Westminster confession says all evil/ every action is “foreordained by divine providence” and that that doesn’t Make God the author of sin because He is Holy Holy Holy and he doesn’t tempt any one (James 1:13) .. because we know acts chapter 4 in the ending verses is true then we know that by using James 1:13 that God predestined the death of Christ by the means of people on earth without God being the author of the evil actions taken by creaturely fallen men.. everyone is held accountable because we have a creaturely will not free. We still have the option to choose based on our highest desire. Remember the doctrine of man will affect how you interpret Scripture and will shape your theology. All men are dead in trespasses and cannot react to the things of God unless John 3:2-8happens

[@duckgrow]

As an ex-Calvinist considering Catholicism this is a truly helpful video.

[@duckgrow]

Thanks for the recommendation @@CatholicDefender-bp7my. I am still working through Trent's book "The Case for Catholicism" but I think I will heed your advice as soon as I finish it.

[@duckgrow]

@@CatholicDefender-bp7my I found a local SSPX church. Are they considered to be Catholic?

[@duckgrow]

@@CatholicDefender-bp7myI appreciate your recommendation! I am still working through Trent’s book on Catholicism but I think I’ll take your advice as soon as I finish it.

[@bluecomb5376]

SSPX is not considered in communion with the Catholic Church. If you can find an FSSP that would be appropriate.@@duckgrow

[@ElishaD-rb8pv]

@@bluecomb5376 the excommunication was lifted by Bnedict XVI so they're in full communion. Pope Francis granted them faculty for confession and marriages. However the uncertainty regarding the jurisdiction issue vis-a-vis the local bishop is still unresolved.

[@ΕλέησονΑμαρτωλόν]

Calvinism sounded Scriptural before I read the Bible.

[@mgvilaca]

Jokes aside I actually was considering Calvinist theology during my conversion. That's because the first Bible book I read was the book of Psalms😂 Then I realized how bs it was

[@antoniotodaro4093]

😂

[@sivad1025]

Especially James 5. James 5 was really hard to seriously read as an anti-Catholic

[@nonpossenonpeccare9104]

You mean Thomism/Augustinianism?

[@florencialopez8599]

Can you please explain Ephesians 1 in Arminian view?

[@stevencash1609]

I don't always reject Calvinism. But, when I do, it's because God sovereignly ordained me to before the foundations of the earth were ever laid.

[@Crucian1]

So you believe God has no sovereign power over your life? If no, then that's not a Roman Catholic position. If yes, then why mock Calvinism?

[@KevinSmile]

​@@Crucian1That's a false dichotomy.

[@Crucian1]

@@KevinSmile Go on...

[@SDRBass]

Hahahaha! So funny! I can’t believe it’s the first time I’ve ever heard someone say that! 😒

[@KevinSmile]

@@Crucian1 I'm confused, do you not know what false dichotomy is? It's a self-explanatory accusation you should be able to figure this out.

[@JoseMartinez-rx6sl]

If you ask me, Calvinism is just spiritual narcissism

[@jettoth3]

I'm a "Calvinist" and I believe that God loves everyone. But God's love doesn't nullify His justice, and He reserves for Himself the right to create some people for mercy, and others for justice. I used to be an atheist, and while I was running away from God, He found me, and He saved me! I'd still be in total rebellion against Him if not for His grace...which I received without ever asking for it. To God be ALL the glory! I've done nothing to deserve His wonderful mercy!

[@andrewborchelt305]

Thank you Trent for not lumping all protestants in with the TULIPs. Its aggravating having to unpack their theological baggage in ecumenical dialogs because everyone assumes these are universal protestant beliefs.

[@lilafeldman8630]

I always felt something wrong with Calvinism. Something amiss and askew about it. But I'm not a theologian, so I can't describe. It doesn't breed good fruit, and causes alot of hurt to people.

[@robertlewis6915]

Like tulips, Calvinism used to be very popular in the Netherlands. This is a historical joke, not really relevant.

[@lilafeldman8630]

I'd take Mary's Roses over Calvin's Tulip's any day.

[@elaquino111]

Romans 8:29-30 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified

[@heymichaelc]

you left out the preceding verse, Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (notice, the predestine verses you mention are contingent on those who love God). The Calvinism form of predestination say that some are spiritually aborted before they are born, cursed to hell, and the rest to heaven. This is a demonic teaching. What is the qualifier in verse 28, ah yes, those who love God. Let’s look at those scriptures again: 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. And the all famous, For God so loved the world that no one should perish… 2 Cor 5:14-15, For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 1 Tim 2:6 Christ gave himself as a ransom for all. And 1 Tim 2:3-4, This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. Reminds me of another passage dealing with truth... 2 Thess 9 The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, Calvinism is another gospel.

[@graceperiod5352]

Technically God desires is to save ALL (not willing anyone perish) but unfortunately not everyone will believe) God in his mercy 🙏 appeals to every single one again not everyone will believe 😢

[@wilpetersheim2688]

​@@graceperiod5352are you saying God is unable to save?

[@voltekthecyborg7898]

@@wilpetersheim2688 If God was unable to save, He wouldn't have sent Jesus Christ

[@Presbybaptisational]

4:05 You just said the exact same thing -- except in your case God's love is based on something that man does rather than on His own immutable nature. If I have to trust in my own right actions and faithfulness to remain in God's favor, I am doomed.

[@premgandhi4484]

The point is that you have to be willing to accept Gods favor ie follow the commands Jesus gave us. Jesus tells us things we have to do ie love god and our neighbor. How does this happen without us doing something? At the most basic level it’s always a choice.

[@Presbybaptisational]

@@premgandhi4484 How much of a choice does a corpse have?

[@PInk77W1]

@@Presbybaptisational God is love 100%. Yes we have to have right actions to stay in his favor. No we are not doomed. God will not force us to be good. We are given grace by God and we choose to be good. Do we sin ? Of course. And we have the ability to beg for forgiveness.

[@Presbybaptisational]

@@PInk77W1 Is it truly love if it is based on our behavior rather than on the fact that we are His children? How would you feel if your parents or spouse treated you that way?

[@PInk77W1]

@@Presbybaptisational God loves us 100%. God made us free 100%. If “we” choose to walk away from God Who is all good and all love, he won’t force us to love him

[@justcallmeblah2543]

Thank you for making this video. Back in 2016 and 2022, I would look up answers to Christianity and the Bible. I would get a lot of my answers from gotquestions. However, one belief they held that always confused me was predestination. I found this video without trying and you have opened my eyes. It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in humans. Psalm 118:8

[@Arvak777]

I'm protestant and when Calvinism was introduced to me it brought me into a depressive nihilistic death spiral towards Islam and then atheism. It's intentions were good but ultimately it becomes Baal worship and self righteousness. It elevates your salvation and God's sovereignty to the point that you aren't even sure if you are saved. God drags you to heaven like a demon desperate for you to be there. You're forever a slave/servant like in Islam.

[@ihiohoh2708]

The single fact that you struggled with assurance under "Calvinism" tells me you listened to Baptists that only held to "TULIP." Likely they endorsed Lordship salvation and other kinds of legalist doctrine. It also sounds like a form of Hyper-Calvinism the way you describe "God dragging you to Heaven." I think you should at least listen to Presbyterians before writing off all of Reformed theology. It would at the very least let you see it's not all the same.

[@Arvak777]

@@ihiohoh2708 I have. It's not for me. It's either all Calvinism or no Calvinism. It's a disgusting and blasphemous theology. I'm not predestined to believe in it. My own brother introduced me to it. He was in a Presbyterian Church

[@ihiohoh2708]

@@Arvak777 I'm sorry you feel that way.

[@JiraiyaSama86]

I think part of the problem is that they're thinking of God as though He's IN time.

[@connorbennett1517]

Ohh interesting. Could you elaborate a bit more?

[@JiraiyaSama86]

@@connorbennett1517 God is timeless. He is I Am.

[@Ecsoggg23k]

I have had this same thought when watching the debates. Calvinist claim we put limits on God when we say we have free will, meaning God can't control us... But I don't believe that. I believe that in all situations, Gad CAN control us. He CHOOSES not to. And there are probably millions of situation where He did control us because He knew what we would choose in the end anyway. That's not us putting limits on God at all. He does whatever He wants, and He wants us to accept or reject based off the grace He gives us. But what Calvinist do is put limits on God... How can he have all things work for His will if He can not see what we are going to do in our own free will? I mean, it was phrased differently in all the times I've heard it argued, but I could not understand what they meant by that at first, and saying we don't believe He is truly sovereign... But then it hit me, they don't believe God can see our choices if its by our own free will. What? That sounds to me like you are putting limits on God, by confining Him into only time like he is not big enough to see our choices and use them to work towards His will ahead of time, while being outside of time. Because God created time, He is outside of it. There is a beginning because God began it, there will be ending when God ends it. How can He do that if He too is in time? He just is, the great 'I am'. So no, God deciding that His will involves us making a free choice is not limiting God, it's what He wanted for His will. With all that said, it's not that I deny Calvinism is true or false honestly, I think both sides have to fill in some blanks that are left open in the Bible. I can honestly say that when it comes down to it, I don't know how God does it. Nor do I have to if He is not revealing it to all. I think that this specific issue, we are trying to hard to figure God out and it goes too far sometimes. God can have mysteries if He wants, we do not need to know everything about Him, and there just isn't enough conclusive information from either side of this to decide on sound doctrine. It is nothing but a guess.

[@connorbennett1517]

@JiraiyaSama86 I do understand thoroughly. God is outside of time and space. I am curious why you say Calvanism seems to think of God as in time.

[@JiraiyaSama86]

@@connorbennett1517 That's not what I said. Read the OP again.

[@yannascotto8597]

Former Protestant here. I’ve learned so much from you, Trent. May God continue to bless you and your channel. When you were giving an example about a scientist adopting ten kids, I can see why IVF is wrong. Thank you for sharing this video.

[@TheMOV13]

In conversations with Calvinists, I've noticed that they will sometimes say (when you've summarised their beliefs about salvation) something like "No no, you don't get it" They then embark on rather wordy explanations, in which the words "sovereign" and "sovereignty" come up a lot. However, when you analyse and summarise the lengthy explanation, it's precisely what you said in the first place.

[@waseemhermiz7565]

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!

[@nightowl7066]

Where in the Bible the Gospel being preached starts with the words "God Loves you" ? Did Peter start his sermon in the Pentecost or Paul at any place where he preached to unbelievers with those words? Please show me. Did God Love Esau? Did Jesus love all pharisees and sadducees? All of them? Does God still love those who are in Hell? Please kindly answer my questions. Cheers

[@webgold3408]

Yes, I agree with what you said. In addition to what you said, I would point out that in the Book of Acts the word "love" never appears. If love is such an important part of the gospel message then why is it left out in Acts ? I would also point out that in John 17 Jesus prays to his Father. In verse 2 we read "he should give eternal life to as many as you have given him." This would include all aspects of salvation. Such as election, regeneration, faith , repentance , atonement, etc. These things are for his people alone.

[@nightowl7066]

@aapesos then you call Jesus a liar because he talked more about hell than heaven.

[@webgold3408]

Jesus tells the evil dead they will be in everlasting fire (Matt. 25:41).

[@nightowl7066]

@webgold3408 please tell me the word HELL means.

[@kletts42]

I’m a prod and Provisionist. Though I don’t agree with many RC doctrines, Mr. Horn is spot-on with this.

[@davido3026]

Who cares ifvyou agree or not. The truth prevails always. 1Timothy 3:15!

[@thomasmcpherson3150]

If you read Romans 9, it's pretty straightforward... "Jacob I loved, Esau I hated" What's your response to that?

[@cristinaborza774]

"However people fail to realise that the context of Romans 9 in which v. 13 appears is not referring to individual salvation but Paul is talking about nations. We know in this passage from the OT: And the LORD said to her, “Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you shall be divided; the one shall be stronger than the other, the older shall serve the younger” (Gen. 25:23, emphasis added). Back in this Genesis context, Esau as an individual did not serve Jacob. It was the opposite. The evidence from Genesis 33:1-3 is that Jacob was “bowing himself to the ground seven times, until he came near to his brother [Esau]” (Gen. 33:3) and Jacob addressed Esau as “my lord” (Gen. 33:8, 13). In fact, Jacob said to Esau that Jacob was “your servant” (Gen. 33:5). It was Jacob who wanted Esau to “accept my blessing” (presents) and Jacob said that Esau’s face was “like seeing the face of God” (Gen. 33:10-11). So we know from this Genesis 33 context that Esau as an individual did not “serve” his younger brother, Jacob. It was the nation of Esau (Edom) that served the nation of Jacob (Israel). So what is the point that Paul is making in Romans 9? God’s choice of Jacob was God’s choice of the nation of Israel over the nation of Edom and that choice was made while they were still in the womb before they had committed neither good nor evil. This was a plan that God had made, the choice of a nation -Israel - and it was not based on human merit. Calvinistic commentator, F. F. Bruce, stated of Rom. 9:13 that it was “from Malachi 1:2 f, where again the context indicates it is the NATIONS of Israel and Edom, rather than their individual ancestors Jacob and Esau, that are in view”."

[@heymichaelc]

Do the study on Jacob/Esau. Back up in the passage. God was referring to two nations, not individuals.

[@dakotasmith1344]

Not only that, but the word for hate here in Hebrew (in the original verse referenced) means something more like “rejected” to our modern ears. Esau was rejected by God because he despised his birthright and sold it for a bowl of soup. Why should God choose him? He wouldn’t respond. Jacob was chosen because he did respond (conditional election). Why shouldn’t Esau have been chosen under unconditional election?

[@roberthughes9295]

The issue with this take is that most Calvinists (including major ones such as R.C. Sproul, John Piper, and John Calvin himself) are willing to say that God loves everyone, but in different manners. He loves all through common grace. He loves all through the offer of salvation that he truly does beckon all to come. Yet we think there are numerous passages that are inescapable regarding God's absolute sovereignty over the salvation of souls. We can disagree on these issues, but we do not blanketly claim God loves some but hates the rest. "Contradiction!" you may cry. Then we would defend ourselves the exact same way Christians throughout all time have for difficult matters of God's will and understanding his sovereignty and its relation to human volition, "we don't know how these ideas are reconciled, but God seems to clearly teach both in his scriptures, so I hope to find out one day."

[@nicholaswade1215]

Very well said! I have never had a problem sharing truth of God's love with unbelievers.

[@salamander8293]

If love is to will the ultimate good for someone, then desiring their salvation would be the ultimate good because Calvinism teaches that grace is irresistible and people go to hell then it logically follows that God does not will the ultimate good for someone. What God ultimately wants is his own glory and not the ultimate good (since damning or saving someone ultimately shows his glory) for an individual. By that understanding the devil could will some goods for people like temporary happiness (because they ultimately lead to their destruction) but I would hard pressed to say the devil loves people.

[@ihiohoh2708]

This is both the fault of people against Calvinism not being honest and Hyper-Calvinists being loud and obnoxious at the forefront of popularity. It’s also the fault of Calvinists not speaking out against Hyper-Calvinism more.

[@spencermackel7800]

Thank you for this breakdown, Trent. Whenever I’ve looked at the views of Calvinism, my mind always got caught up in trying to rebut their principle of predestination, being that God is all knowing and ultimately knows which of us will be preserved from damnation. This rebuttal has been helpful, and your analyses and reasonings have been very helpful in bringing many people further into the Catholic faith, myself included.

[@Jesus_is_Lord_316]

What is the best way to respond to these verses?: John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him ... Acts 2:47 - ... And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved. 1 Peter 2:8 - ... a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

[@heymichaelc]

Here we go again, shotgun scripture posting.. John 6:44, No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.. put it in context. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto me. Acts 2:47 you want me to believe this is an argument for Calvinism lol, God gets the glory my friend, that's all. I believe it has something to do with Jesus dying on the cross. 1 Peter 2:8 If God appointed them to salvation (as you believe), then why are those appointed at risk of losing their souls in 1 Peter 2:11?

[@snokehusk223]

I mean it is pointless being calvinist even if it is true. It doesn't matter what you do, it won't affect your salvation.

[@thecatechumen]

To what extent do you see Thomistic soteriology intersecting with that of Calvin or Luther? For St. Thomas, God is ultimately the one who "*moves man inwardly* to assent to matters of faith" (STh., II-II q.6 a.1 resp.). To an untrained ear (and former Protestants like myself), this sounds awfully similar to irresistible grace - that is, God effectually causes some to have faith and passively leaves others in their totally depraved state such that only those whom He wills to be saved will ultimately have faith. There may be something I am missing here though since I am not too acquainted with the inner workings of Catholic soteriological positions.

[@EmilTennis00]

you are right, and that is why for example other Catholic KZbinrs (e.g. Christian Wagner in Scholastic Answers; Watch his 7 minute clip named "On Calvinism and Thomism") who studied these issues more extensively say that in terms of election to salvation as well as reprobation Thomism and Calvinism agree. Of course, there are some differences in more specific issues but the core on soteriology is actually the same, and this is why I think Trent Horn' criticism could equally be extended to Thomism, which would undermine Catholicism.

[@johnf.salzaesq.8955]

In St Thomas's view, man remains free under the operation of grace and while he could resist his resistance remains in potency. God first moves with an operating grace and man cooperates freely (cooperating grace). This view is Scriptural and unlike the elements of total depravity and irresistible grace in the Calvinist view.

[@thecatechumen]

Does God's operating grace necessitate man's cooperation?@@johnf.salzaesq.8955

[@5silverpesos]

Thanks!

[@KMANelPADRINO]

The dilemma of evil and the destination power of God are problems for everyone. Non-Calvinists believe that God knows everything prior to it happening, meaning that God knows before He creates someone He knows whether they will suffer in Hell or live forever in His salvation. This means that God willingly creates people while knowing that they will be either Hell-bound or saved due to His rules and His choice to create them. This means that even by the action of creation, God is determining the fates of human beings. The question then becomes if God loves both people equally, why does He even bother creating people knowing that their purpose according to His provisions and His actions, is for them to suffer in Hell? Why does He do that to them? Why does He make from one lump vessels destined for honor and vessels destined for dishonor, as the Scriptures say? So the point of God having the ultimate and determinant choice over the matter remains, whether one is Calvinistic or not.

[@Hypnotoad206]

Even as a Protestant, I believe in free will. Our “propensity” to sin does not blind us from decision making. I’ve always seen Calvinism to carry a strongly limited connotation for who Christ died for. Dying for “the sins of the world” lets us know that, the Father “draws” the elect through Christ via hearing & learning (John 6). That doesn’t mean the elect have unconditionally been predetermined. But rather, that God used his divine provision and foresight to give us the “how” to be drawn by the Son. It’s like magnetism in a sense. He knows who will be saved, but that is only on the basis of Faith. He knows “who will” have faith and elect them, not that He “will give” them faith because he elected them. That’s the biggest difference.

[@MrKylesvids]

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24, ESV)

[@asgrey22]

There’s an old homily by young Pope Benedict/Ratzinger (not in the context of Calvinism specifically) talking about how the Chosen (Jews) acted as a sort of lever for the rest of the world, and how Christians today may play some similar role for those outside the Church. In that context, I could kind of see how the “elect” participate in God’s saving plan for the rest. Basically, none are forgotten, but the way God’s grace reaches you involves secondary causation if you are not the elect. Like if you want to keep a picnic cloth from blowing off the table, you weigh it down in key sections, but it’s unnecessary to cover the whole thing. So if the goal is to offer salvation to all… the “elect” act as these sort of weights.

[@TheGloryofMusic]

This is a misrepresentation of reformed theology, and furthermore predestination is clearly taught in the Bible as well as by Catholic theologians such as Aquinas.

[@timothyvenable3336]

Agreed

[@TheGloryofMusic]

@@timothyvenable3336 There's a logical problem with Catholic soteriology. If humans are ultimately autonomous, then it is theoretically possible that no one will choose God and Christ would have died in vain. RJ Rushdoony said that if there is a single atom at the edge of the universe that not under God's predestinating control, then God is no longer truly God.

[@timothyvenable3336]

@@TheGloryofMusic it’s so frustrating when non-reformed people claim Calvinistic/reformed theology is pride filled and anti-God. It is 100% the opposite! It is ALL God because he is sovereign! Free-will exists but is not elevated above God and his control. That is the pride, not claiming to be elect by God. How do they not see that?

[@vinoneil]

​@@timothyvenable3336 Because under Calvinist theology, Christ could very well have died for 100 people and the countless other billions could very well have been damned to hell before they were even born, simply because they weren't elect. Makes evangelism pointless, since the elect are elect regardless, and the damned are damned regardless. Imagine trying to follow God your entire life while struggling with sin, only to find out you weren't elect and your fate was sealed before you even breathed your first breath. There is something repulsive about that belief.

[@timothyvenable3336]

@@vinoneil “makes evangelism pointless” actually the opposite. We are called to share the gospel, yes. But if no one here’s the gospel, no one is saved, as Roman’s 10 talks about. If the lost don’t hear the gospel from me because I’m disobedient, they’ll hear it from someone else who is obedient. Think about this though. Let’s say election doesn’t exist. And you go and share the gospel to someone who never heard. What if you mess up? What if you don’t communicate clear enough? That person isn’t saved because you aren’t an effective communicator. But if that person is elect, you can rest assured that the Holy Spirit will be at work in that person no matter how you present the gospel Also, you said “imagine trying to follow… only to find out you weren’t elect” that’s not how election works so that’s a straw man.

[@MrArch777]

I was in a calvinist health group for a little while, left because it became too much for me. Before I left I got to save a meme before the admins deleted it. It was Conversations with Calvinist Jesus, the man said "Master, what must I do to inherit eternal life?" and Jesus said "Nothing, as I've already assigned you to hell" and it shows the guy with a blank confused expression. I really felt that one, because if we're all predestined to go to heaven or hell, what is the purpose of spreading the gospel? It makes everything seem very meaningless.

[@nicholaswade1215]

"Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated." "Those he predestined he also called, those he called he also justified, and those he justified he also glorified." "They stumble because they disobey the Word as they were destined to." "The LORD has prepared everything for its purpose. Even the wicked for the day of judgement." Of course God loves everyone in some capacity! He created them! But, no His grace is not equal to everyone. I'm not explaining away Bible verses that are difficult for me. Sola Scriptura.

[@jessezandee9282]

Brother, I feel like this could be steel-manned more. Frankly, I’m not a fan of internet Calvinism or its internet alternativess. If you wanna take on the doctrine of election, go to Calvin himself. If you wanna talk about broader reformed Calvinistic theology, talk about it. I feel like this could be done better

[@rodrigofernandes5242]

Thanks for one more great video, Trent. Hope this help more protestants convert to the Catholic Chruch.

[@nonpossenonpeccare9104]

Bruh, Thomism/Augustinianism is not different than Calvinistic soteriology. You can literally believe in unconditional election and stuff if you are Catholic, something which Jimmy Akin admitted. Catholic church hasn’t taken a definitive position, can also be a molinist if you want or something else. Trent Horn is a deceiver

[@BingoNamo-gb8pz]

Trent speaks nothing like a Catholic. If I were to argue the exact same points as Trent to another Catholic they would simply say “you are not saved because you do not belong to the Catholic Church.”

[@protestanttoorthodox3625]

Calvinism is a joke

[@Amlux1984]

I think there is a wonderful blend of God’s plan and our choices. It’s seemingly contradictory, but also beautiful. It’s a mystery we won’t understand, maybe never.

[@stacyclark5910]

“Jacob I have loved, Esau I have hated.” Romans 9:13 (NKJV)

[@heymichaelc]

Do the study, God was referring to two nations, not individuals.

[@bubbaliburtee8657]

I for one am under no illusion that my will is able to go against God's will

[@samanthaannfuchsgruber]

Quick question from a Catholic (I am not a Calvinist): it truly seems to me that most people in my life (who are not Christian) do not have spiritual experiences... or some sort of revelation of God through Christ. It makes me wonder: does the problem of Divine Hiddenness bolster the Calvinist argument since God is choosing whom He reveals Himself to? So it's really no wonder that all people do not come to God?

[@marlam8625]

It’s about obedience and truth, not about feeling.

[@samanthaannfuchsgruber]

@@marlam8625 some people, despite their searching, are just not convinced of Christianity (or Catholicism) as being the truth... and that is something I am trying to reconcile. As a devout follower of Christ.

[@axeldelumen]

Fellow Catholic here! God has already revealed Himself to us all, as said in Romans 1:20-21 "Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened." It's just a matter of responding to the call and being open to the grace. This can be seen in local cultures/peoples that share the same moral and theological principles Christians have (monotheistic, monogamous, no child sacrifices, etc.). The CCC further explains this with the concept of Anonymous Christians. This does not excuse us from evangelizing and spreading the Word, of course. At the end of the day, God's judgment will always be just. And He knows whether or not you've already heard the gospel and know of Jesus Christ (which is extremely hard for those who lived before His birth). Not a very thorough answer, but I hope this helps!

[@theTavis01]

I grew up secular atheist, and I had many visions/experiences of the spiritual realm. One time, during a back massage, I slipped into a trance and there were angels flying around singing about God. I thought "I didn't think angels are real. Wait a minute, I didn't think God is real" and then I snapped out of it. This was a full 10 years before I repented and started following Jesus. So clearly God revealed Himself to me, multiple times actually, but it was always left up to me to decide what to do with it. And because I am stubbornly hard-headed it took me quite a while to come around. Also, Jesus said that "blessed are they who have NOT seen yet have believed" so clearly some people (greater than I) are able to have faith without any divine revelations of the type I experienced.

[@anglicanaesthetics]

Here's a huge problem--the critique of unconditional election here would apply equally to Thomists and Augustinians. Insofar as you agree with the Thomistic argument, there's no reason the Reformed can't adopt that (and in fact, at Westminster, often did): "what is of predestination; as there is not distinction between what flows from a secondary cause and from a first cause. For the providence of God produces effects through the operation of secondary causes, as was above shown (I:22:3. Wherefore, that which flows from free-will is also of predestination. We must say, therefore, that the effect of predestination may be considered in a twofold light-in one way, in particular; and thus there is no reason why one effect of predestination should not be the reason or cause of another; a subsequent effect being the reason of a previous effect, as its final cause; and the previous effect being the reason of the subsequent as its meritorious cause, which is reduced to the disposition of the matter. Thus we might say that God pre-ordained to give glory on account of merit, and that He pre-ordained to give grace to merit glory. In another way, the effect of predestination may be considered in general. Thus, it is impossible that the whole of the effect of predestination in general should have any cause as coming from us; because whatsoever is in man disposing him towards salvation, is all included under the effect of predestination; even the preparation for grace. For neither does this happen otherwise than by divine help, according to the prophet Jeremias (Lamentations 5:21): "convert us, O Lord, to Thee, and we shall be converted." Yet predestination has in this way, in regard to its effect, the goodness of God for its reason; towards which the whole effect of predestination is directed as to an end; and from which it proceeds, as from its first moving principle." The reason for the predestination of some, and reprobation of others, must be sought for in the goodness of God. Thus He is said to have made all things through His goodness, so that the divine goodness might be represented in things. Now it is necessary that God's goodness, which in itself is one and undivided, should be manifested in many ways in His creation; because creatures in themselves cannot attain to the simplicity of God. Thus it is that for the completion of the universe there are required different grades of being; some of which hold a high and some a low place in the universe. That this multiformity of grades may be preserved in things, God allows some evils, lest many good things should never happen, as was said above (I:22:2). Let us then consider the whole of the human race, as we consider the whole universe. God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. To this the Apostle refers, saying (Romans 9:22-23): "What if God, willing to show His wrath [that is, the vengeance of His justice], and to make His power known, endured [that is, permitted] with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction; that He might show the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory" and (2 Timothy 2:20): "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver; but also of wood and of earth; and some, indeed, unto honor, but some unto dishonor." Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): "Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err." Thus too, in the things of nature, a reason can be assigned, since primary matter is altogether uniform, why one part of it was fashioned by God from the beginning under the form of fire, another under the form of earth, that there might be a diversity of species in things of nature. Yet why this particular part of matter is under this particular form, and that under another, depends upon the simple will of God; as from the simple will of the artificer it depends that this stone is in part of the wall, and that in another; although the plan requires that some stones should be in this place, and some in that place. Neither on this account can there be said to be injustice in God, if He prepares unequal lots for not unequal things. This would be altogether contrary to the notion of justice, if the effect of predestination were granted as a debt, and not gratuitously. In things which are given gratuitously, a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice. This is what the master of the house said: "Take what is thine, and go thy way. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will?" (Matthew 20:14-15).

[@anglicanaesthetics]

So for the same reasons that Aquinas affirms God's universal love and even desire for all people to be saved, Calvinists can too (as John Piper does)

[@erric288]

Could you not say that God's will is to preserve the freedom of man so man can always be free to choose to love God at every point in a person's life. Whatever grace given would always be sufficient to maintain the ability for a person to love or spurn God. The entire circumstances of existence and one's life would also be crafted to maintain this neutral point where freedom is preserved. Even in those who reach the heights of holiness there is often Dark Nights and doubts which always maintain the possibility of sin and turning away.

[@nicholaswade1215]

​@@erric288 God's will does not revolve around people doing what they want... Natural man is wicked. Interestingly, Scripture never uses the term free will. It describes man's natural will as evil, broken, enslaved, and in bondage. I would call that the opposite of free. When God sets your will free you choose Him. But when your will is in bondage to sin you can't choose Him.

[@anglicanaesthetics]

@erric288 Yes, I think one could say that God's grace is always sufficient for human repentance. It's efficacious for the elect in that it brings about the elect's free embrace of Christ, but yes--one could say that God gives sufficient grace to all for repentance as an expression of his love for all. I actually have a model of this published in the Heythrop Journal called "Molinist Thomist Calvinism" where I argue exactly this!

[@carpediem5316]

Mucho texto

[@demarleroux3766]

So glad God has since the atrocities of Old Testament, referring to the flood and the culling of Israel, changed His ways to be in line with the much more rational thinking of man that all of mankind are now finally the deserving recipient of God's saving grace if man chooses to do so.

[@juggerboy7182]

Deep in depression having taken atheism to its ultimate conclusion of no free will due to everything in our universe being either due to chain causality and/or randomness, I could feel my soul die after coming to this conclusion, so being at my lowest and no where left to turn I call out to god to show me a miracle so I may believe in him. God answered me immediately, having humbled myself before him and letting go of my materialist pride two miracles were revealed to me and they were existence itself and free will. That might seem silly to some but it was profound to me and I felt my soul restored and gods mercy and love replace all of the darkness and despair in my heart.

[@TheMoreYouSew]

Former Calvinist. It was super depressing and anxiety - provoking.

[@jessezandee9282]

Saying Calvinists don’t think God loves everyone is such a straw man… Like we haven’t heard these arguments before. Let’s not do false witness against each other. “The God of Calvinism”? Are you serious? I view you as a brother in Christ, though I disagree with you. I think reformed theology gives a much more beautiful picture of God than you put forward.

[@SalvadoporGracia]

Well perhaps those arguments have validity? I mean you do believe that God predestines people to hell. That’s horrific. How do you reconcile verses such as… Ezekiel 33:11 “As I live,” says the Lord GOD, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’ 2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is long suffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.” This doesn’t sound like the God of Calvinism my friend. You have a different God. These two verses alone refute the idea that we don’t have free will and that God determines who goes to heaven and hell.

[@jessezandee9282]

@@SalvadoporGracia I have no problem for these verses as a Calvinist. To clarify, unlike Calvin himself I’m not a double-predestinarian. Every Christian must wrestle that God desires all to be saved. In his love for the world, those who reject him will not enjoy the life of the age to come. We all inhabit this path until God rescues us by his saving love. It’s not that human beings have no choice in the matter. It’s precisely our choices and desires that put us on this track. It’s not as if God is picking names out of a hat for heaven or hell. We’re all on track for destruction. But thanks be to God that he saves any of us at all. I appreciate your response. I want us to avoid false witness against one another as brothers and sisters in Christ. We should represent one another’s stances in a way that builds up.

[@banmancan1894]

It is eerie that this video came out and I was talking to my friend about this very element of Calvinism just yesterday. Even as a protestant, I go look at history of Calvinism and ask "why guys"?

[@sivad1025]

Because it's a logical endpoint. If you reject Calvinism, you're forced to agree with the Catholics that deliberate sin can sever grace (see Hebrews 10) and that we need intercession and confession to restore that lost grace (see James 5). If you're a Protestant who has engaged in deliberate sin and rejects eternal security, how can you ever have confidence that you're saved? This is a huge problem and made me quickly start to rethink Catholicism. I wanted eternal security without Calvinism, but it's clear that Calvinism is a logical endpoint of that doctrine and that the doctrine requires strained reinterpretation of the Bible. Suddenly, you're left with a great need for sacramental theology and you start to understand why the Catholic church taught the sacraments for all of their history

[@bernardokrolo2275]

​@@sivad1025thanks..finaly explanation...

[@robertortiz-wilson1588]

@@sivad1025wow, really well put.

[@theTavis01]

@@sivad1025James 5:16 "Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed." can easily be practiced without some formal setting of a priest in a confession box. Relying on your priest to get you there is still missing the mark. Paul teaches us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. The confidence of "knowing" comes through self-inspection. Not by checking off all the boxes of your church. 2 Cor 13:5 "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?-unless indeed you fail to meet the test!"

[@sivad1025]

@@theTavis01 I mostly agree but two things: 1. First, my experience in Protestant churches is that specific, verbal confession is not at all practiced because there's no system of accountability in place for it. Even if you were 100% correct, the Protestants would be much better off learning from the Catholics and Orthodox on this 2. You are not 100% correct because you miss the special authority given to the apostles: *And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld."* _John 20:22-23_ If Jesus merely said to forgive others by preaching the gospel, that would be one thing. But he uniquely tells the apostles that if they withold forgiveness, forgiveness will be withheld in heaven. Unless you think your average joe Christian can go and withhold the sins of their brothers in the faith on behalf of God, I think we're forced to the conclusion that this was uniquely directed at the apostles--in the context of breathing on them--for a reason.

[@stuartbaker3755]

In all seriousness, something i struggle with. If God allows you to choose him or not, but he knew from eternity past what your choice would be... How is that not God predestining you to salvation or not? I mean, the garden and the tree...why did he put the tree there if he desires all men to be with him? Why allow yhe fall? Why create satan? Why put into motion a series of events that lead billions to hell?

[@tommyt8998]

I always wonder why so many vloggers feel the need to persuade us of the "correctness" of their particular religious belief system. I'm in my 70s. I remember an old bromide about Theologians arguing about how many Angels can sit on the head of a pin!

[@awilson8521]

There's a difference between desire and decree. Can God desire to save everyone and NOT save everyone? Pretty sure it's possible. And I would be careful with "Does God really...?" It reads a lot like the Serpent in the Garden.

[@j.prt.979]

If God desires everyone to be saved but is incapable of providing a method by which it is actually possible for everyone to be saved, he is incompetent. Throwing Satan accusations around doesn’t make your position any less untenable.

[@gustavusadolphus4344]

If humans are incapable of turning to God, and God doesn't have any issues intervening and violating the free will of some to save them, but will not do it to others despite the power to do so. It can be logically said God does not want to save all people.

[@dougnewman3935]

Calvin was a lawyer and liked everything to “fit” logically. Luther was a pastor and let the Scriptures take him where they did. So as Lutherans we embrace the paradoxes the Scriptures give us. Like Calvinists we reject syncretistic teachings that we contribute to our salvation: whether works (in RC system) or decision (in evangelicalism). If we are saved it’s because God did it. But we reject double predestination teaching and teach as Scripture does if we are damned it’s because we rejected Him and His salvation and atonement. God is all-powerful, He desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, God works faith and salvation to us, and yet not all are saved due to their rejection. All these things cannot be synthesized logically according to our fallible reason, yet Scripture presents them as true and we bow our fallible limited reason to Scripture’s testimony.

[@user-pk8md6yf3f]

Sed Contra. Thomas Aquinas holds that God reprobates some and also loves them.

[@KephasIsStPeter]

I can’t believe people still fall for Calvinism, like take a step back and evaluate your theology. If your beliefs are Calvinist you have inherent narcissism ingrained into your faith. How about you seriously look at it and ask yourself why would God choose me? Because he wouldn’t he had to send his son to die for you.

[@alphaomega4825]

Genuine question from a loosely Calvinistic Christian and a big fan of Trent: If God is all knowing, then doesn't he know the beginning to the end? If he does, he already knows, regardless of your belief on 'free will', whether you will answer his call or not. If he is all powerful and does desire for absolutely all to be saved, could he not have adjusted the free willed non-believer's life trajectory to one of belief? Not adjusting the free will of the person but the situations he finds himself in. It seems to me that the Bible is filled with characters who have their free will altered by the circumstances God puts in front of them, and further, characters whose will God influences directly by hardening hearts. Also, if you have a non-resistant unbeliever, as Alex O'Connor puts it, is God loving everyone so much that because of your faulty human reasoning in you choosing atheism or another religion he actually can't step in and save you in spite of that? Or is it more of a Loving father who says to his child at the top of the playground, "Jump and I'll catch you." Only for the child to run and jump off the other side, landing flat on his face and the father saying, "Well, you chose that." Genuine questions. Interested to hear.

[@maumaukiddoDuddu]

God knows everything, even things that could have happened but never happened. He gives us endless possibilities at all times and knows the consequences of each choice. God is honest in His decision to give us free will, so each possibility He offers us is valid to be chosen, and our choices are respected. God knows all that a man can become, and every man is invited through grace to be saved. The reality, the gospel, good and evil without free will, would be meaningless. We would all be just cyborgs. As some 5 point calvinists say, "the non elected go to hell for the glory of God," but in fact, it would be a meaningless "glory," they never had a chance to be more than "reprobates" to begin with, there is no justice in it.

[@galaxyn3214]

5:48 MacArthur did not misspeak. If total depravity is true, then the elect are predestined to spend eternity with a deity whose "goodness" is so alien to human sensibilities that a relationship with Him is truly terrible even for the saints. As C. S. Lewis wrote: "If God's moral judgement differs from ours so that our 'black' may be His 'white', we can mean nothing by calling Him good; for to say 'God is good', while asserting that His goodness is wholly other than ours, is really only to say 'God is we know not what'. And an utterly unknown quality in God cannot give us moral grounds for loving or obeying Him." - *The Problem of Pain* "My fear was now of another kind. I felt sure that the creature was what we called 'good,' but I wasn’t sure whether I liked 'goodness' so much as I had supposed. This is a very terrible experience. As long as what you are afraid of is something evil, you may still hope that the good may come to your rescue. But suppose you struggle through to the good and find that it is also dreadful? How if food itself turns out to be the very thing you can't eat and home the very place you can't live, and your very comforter the person who makes you uncomfortable. Then, indeed, there is no rescue possible: the last card has been played." - *Perelandra*

[@TheSuperXNova]

I think arguing that Calvinists must say God does not love everyone because God does not choose to save everyone is not valid. This equivocation is not a necessary assumption of a reformed thinker, and the problem of everyone not being saved means God does not love everyone poses a problem for any theological system that is not universalist and holds that God is omnipotent.

[@ihiohoh2708]

God does love everyone. I hate this idea that this is associated with all Calvinists. (Thanks, Baptists) That is a problem of Hyper-Calvinism, not Calvinism. However, God doesn't love everyone equally.

[@TheSuperXNova]

@@ihiohoh2708 eh, to be fair to the video, Calvin really does read into verses that when it says God desires all to be saved, the Bible really means some of all classes or groups of people. I think Barth’s hopeful universalism is a better path for us Reformed. Otherwise, the mystery of God’s omnibenevolence, omnipotence, and the fact of eternal hell for some creates an unsolvable mystery for us Christians.

[@joshuareeves5103]

Calvinism does not teach that God does not love everyone. I would maybe grant that he has different love for his elect than others. Different love is not foreign to us. I love my children different than I do some other child.

[@patriotnate7568]

I am no pastor or scholar but hear me out. I want to know where I am wrong regarding God's character. I came to faith in my late 30's. After God changed my heart and I read his word I saw nothing but his sovereignty and mercy. I was already in rebellion. It wasnt until later that I heard terms like "Calvinism" and "Armenianism (sp)". I dont like to paint myself with a label because I knew these things before I knew there were labels for them, but everything described by "Calvinism" is exactly what I see in the Bible and in my own experience of salvation. The wind blows where the winds blows. Thanks for listening. Thank God that even if im wrong, Jesus is always right!

[@dumbidols]

Every single call to repentance in the scripture is a refutation of calvinism. No choice, no repentance. Commanding people to do something you foreordained they would not do? Illogical.

[@patriotnate7568]

@dumbidols man always wants to raise himself to be his own God, his own judge. There are many arguments that I might not be able to directly refute but God is sovereign and in control. You always hit that wall of his sovereignty and either he decided the beginning from the end or he didn't. And thank God for that. Thank you Lord for picking us

[@patriotnate7568]

@dumbidols we are called to be holy and yet I cannot. I don't see that as illogical

[@emouselOregon]

I am no scholar, either. That is why I submit to the Church God established as my guide. It is important to try to individually discern God's will for you through prayer but to do so while humbly accepting the authority of those who have been given it. We are called to be united in Christ not argue with authority because we disagree with parts of it.

[@ralph_022]

Thank you for the material. This is great and I am learning a lot.

[@brotherandrew3393]

The most disturbing consequence of Calvinism is that it makes God look like a cruel monster who is deciding that people go to hell before they were even born but nonetheless brings them into existence. And they can do nothing to evade hell

[@Concetta20]

My Calvinistic leanings don’t prevent me from sharing the Gospel. The fact that someone becomes a Christian means they were elected, it works with God’s sovereignty. And what do we do with the verse “Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated?”

[@dakotasmith1344]

Then why do you evangelize, since they are already elect? Why does God want you to evangelize? *descent in hyperCalvinism* The word hate in Hebrew here really means reject. Esau was rejected because he hated (rejected) his birthright. He wouldn’t respond. God chose Jacob because he would respond. Hence, conditional election. Also, the majority of the commentaries agree this verse is talking about nations/groups of people, not individuals. Individual predestination was a theological “innovation” by Augustine in the 4th century, well after Jesus.

[@Flame1500]

I am not a fully paid up Catholic, but this is one of the many reasons I am not Calvinist. I tend to agree with Free Gracers though on the point that God truly loves you, each and everyone. Some are unfortunately destined for wrath, but this is not through God willing for them to experience deah eternal, this is through their rejection of God's grace and lack of belief.

[@Fr33zy159]

"If your theology is preventing you from telling someone that God loves you, that theology needs to go." Unless its someone rejecting a Marian dogma of course. Calvinists still spread the gospel and tell people that God loves the world because we're commanded to do so.

[@dataman6310]

We still say that God loves those who reject Catholic doctrine. Lol where are you getting this idea from?

[@JaceyMitchell]

I have a cousin in the Netherlands, a part of the country that's extremely Calvinist. Her kids go to a Calvinist school, and while the school overall sounds pretty great, the theology they were being taught in bible class sounded very grim. Luckily they allow their kids to leave the classroom and read during their bible class, and my cousin drives her kids to Catholic Sunday school every week. I found that to be a rather lovely way on the part of our Calvinist brethren to accommodate two kids who are being raised Catholic in such an overwhelmingly Calvinist small-town environment. ❤✝️

[@geraldpolzinjr9670]

God knows and declares the end from the beginning. All thing’s are held together by him, through him and for him!

[@truthovertea]

This is why Molinism wins! God keeps sovereignty while humans have free will to choose to accept salvation from Christ thus keeping Gods love available to all as He does love all. Wonder if Gavin Ortlund will respond 😮

[@scientiasophia7396]

The Bible doesn't command us to evangelize people by telling them about God's love. Rather the opposite: Don't throw pearls before swine. What the Bible does give us examples of is Apostles telling people to "repent and believe". This is the message that sinners need to hear. They need to understand the radical nature of their fallenness and enmity with God and how they can be saved from this. That is: Through the once fulfilled sacrifice of Jesus Christ. People who are dead in their sin, won't believe whatever you preach them. God has to breath into them first to make them alive.

[@halleylujah247]

Tell me you haven't read the Bible without telling me you haven't read the Bible.

[@scientiasophia7396]

@@halleylujah247 Can you provide me an example from the Bible, where someone did preach the gospel to unbelievers by appealing to the love of God as the reason?

[@halleylujah247]

@@scientiasophia7396 John 13:34-35 "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.” Matthew 28:18-20 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

[@halleylujah247]

@@scientiasophia7396 if Jesus's words are not enough I can show more.☺️ Corinthians 13:1-13 1 If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. 3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,but do not have love, I gain nothing. 4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

[@scientiasophia7396]

@@halleylujah247 These both quotations are very true words indeed. The love in John 13 is the love that Jesus commands believers to have to one another. It's for those, who are already part of Christ's body and are born again. The other quotation is the great commission. I think it proves my point instead of disproving it :) "Teaching them all that I have taught you." From the very beginning of His Ministry, Jesus taught "repent & believe". That was one core message of His.

[@SP-td9xj]

Jesus loves some of the children, some of the children of the world, but to the ones he doesnt like, theyre disgusting in his sight Calvinist church songs for kids

[@patrolman602]

Did God love Pharaoh? (Rom. 9:17). Did He love the Amalekites? (Ex. 17:14). Did He love the Canaanites, who He commanded to be exterminated without mercy? (Deut. 20:16). Did He love the Ammonites and Moabites whom He commanded not to be received into the congregation forever? (Deut. 23:3). Does He love the workers of iniquity? (Ps. 5:5). Does He love the vessels of wrath fitted for destruction, which He endures with much long-suffering? (Rom. 9:22). Did He love Esau? (Rom. 9:13)

[@moniquelemaire5333]

I always tell non Christians that God is a Gentleman...He doesn't force Himself on anyone, yet His heart, He does want everyone to come to a knowledge of the Truth. Think of Hymenaus and Alexander....they left the faith...the Apostle Paul was warning the Christians with Timothy. (If I remember you will find this in Paul's letters to Timothy.) Keep up the great work, Trent!! Miss Monique 🙂🙏🌷💖