One D&D Player Handbook 5 Overview and Thoughts

[@Imitarate]

Obviously, the solution to weapon juggling is to make the player roll perfomance to actually juggle the weapons.

[@woutvanostaden1299]

I'd be fine with that if I'm allowed to use irl skills. 😂 (I can juggle😊)

[@SamFinklestein]

Something which most people seem to miss (because who actually *reads* the Spellcasting class feature?) is that despite the use of "Spells Prepared", sorcerers and warlocks are not "prepared casters". Look at how they "prepare" their spells according to the feature: they do so on level-up. They are "spells known" casters, it's just *called* preparation.

[@robertd4061]

Regarding the whole Short Rest debacle, my tin-foil-hat theory is that it all can be traced back to how 5e’s encounter building system works (or more to the point, how it doesn’t). With Wizards pushing people to homebrew their own encounters and entire campaigns, both directly through encouraging it and indirectly by publishing less-than-great adventure modules, DMs need to come up with encounters frequently. However, the encounter building tools fail to support the DM in this regard, and building encounters is more difficult than it should be. This leads to DMs planning less encounters, which leads to the “one or two encounters a session” trend increasing, which in turn leads to short rests fading out of relevancy as the party gets more and more opportunities to long rest at the end of a session, or between sessions. Until I started running Pathfinder 2e, I didn’t realize how much I disliked building encounters for 5e. It’s so much easier in PF2.

[@gopro_audio]

At 7:53 is the exact method I have used in my Advanced 5E playtesting for the 2+ years. It works.

[@MonstersMulticlass]

I feel like it's the most requested thing and for some reason WotC just wants to ignore it.

[@sageofdoom1]

A note for warlock multiclas there cantrips scale of warlock level not chsricter level now

[@camclemons]

I understand warlock being a half caster if you compare it to the artificer given that both classes whose primary damage source is cantrips. That said, warlock serve drastically different functions than any half caster, and to just lazily make it a half caster is taking the very core out of the class wholesale. I understand that it's due in part to the shift away from short rests, but that was definitely the wrong way to do it.

[@SamFinklestein]

For the weapon masteries, only three of them are restricted in use: nick, sap, and slow. Nick is for two-weapon fighting, so you were probably only going to attack with that weapon once anyway, and sap and slow are once *per target*, so you can still spread out the love if you're fighting multiple enemies.

[@MonstersMulticlass]

Yeah I meant with single targets when I was mentioning weapon swapping. As topple for example wouldn't be useful twice in a row

[@SamFinklestein]

@@MonstersMulticlass Oh, right. Yeah, topple is another one. And cleave. Quite a few, now that I think about it. The level 13 fighter feature will be very valuable.

[@camclemons]

With regard to the weapon juggling, I think it's a fair tradeoff for, say, using a weapon that does more damage. I also think the playstyle it benefits most is 1h and a shield, where you get a nice trifecta of AC, crowd control, damage.

[@kallebuchholz2156]

The modify spell should be a ritual spell wich needs a month or more to complete so it would be a downtime activity for wizards wich isn’t taking anything away from the sorcerer

[@DanielJones-w7s]

I blame the community. Everytime they try and patch one of the holes reddit lights up with "that was never a problem! Paladin nova was class fantasy!".

[@TheLibGamer]

I thought for the eruption... was supposed to be "called" before the role. So for example I roll 5 black and 1 red d6, and the red d6 is the one that determines the extra effect.

[@MonstersMulticlass]

I wasn't sure on that. It certainly does not specify and if thats the intent it should say. Though I wouldn't love that design.

[@daviddalrymple2284]

One thing that's useful about making something a spell instead of a class feature is that you immediately know how the rules apply to it. Does it work in an antimagic field? Can you do it while your hands are bound? Of course, that runs completely opposite to the trend started by MOTM, which saw many spells turned into special actions...

[@MonstersMulticlass]

That is a good point! We'll have to mention that when we do our spellcasters deep dive.

[@robertd4061]

It almost feels to me like they would like to go back to a 4e-style “power” stat block with keywords and defined targets and such, but 5e doesn’t have such a standardized rules construct, and the closest thing they have is spells. So they’re turning abilities into spells to give them some semblance of consistent design.

[@gopro_audio]

WoTC designs with lazy intent, how can the human reduce its work load, not design with the intent of the game.

[@MrBoltstrike]

I made a very long, very unhinged post on Reddit once about warlocks. They're my favorite class and all you need to do to fix them is make at least one of the following changes: 1. Change those offensive invocation spells (Like Mire the Mind or Thief of Five Fates) add the spell to the spells known and allow them to be used once per long rest without a spell slot. 2. Increase the number of spell slots across the entire class. Having spell slots equal to proficiency bonus may be strong, but it would fix the problem too. 3. Allow warlocks to get their third and fourth spell slots sooner. As it stands, most published adventures end before the warlock gets their third spell slot. Yes, they get bigger but not easier to hit/harder to save. 2 and 3 overlap, but that's all I request and I've had a lot of fun with that. If we're getting rid of short rests, then adding in a modified version of Arcane Recovery would work fine too. Called Eldritch Recovery. Problem solved. It could be a feature or an invocation (I favor invocation myself, but I also favor giving warlocks 1 or 2 more invocations to offset the invocation tax). I love Warlocks, and turning them into half-casters is not the solution.

[@MonstersMulticlass]

I'd play the hell out of that warlock. Great suggestions.

[@daviddalrymple2284]

I prefer that Battlemaster-style maneuvers remain an optional part of the Fighter. I think that D&D is always going to need at least one "simple" subclass [i.e. the Champion Fighter] that can still adventure alongside a party full of Moon Druids and Lore Bards. Weapon mastery adds a bit of depth without being overwhelming. I like that they've made the Warlock a half-caster. The problem I've always had with there being some classes who get almost nothing back on a short rest (Rogues and Sorcerers) versus classes who get almost everything back on a short rest (Warlocks and Monks) is that it creates an unnecessary imbalance that exacerbates what has always been the biggest problem with 5e: encounter design and planning. [Personally, I like the middle ground where every class gets SOMETHING back on a short rest besides just HP, but doesn't get EVERYTHING back. Every class should have something like a Wizard's arcane recovery.] Over the years, I've played several Warlocks and several Rangers in 5e. And their spellcasting has always felt pretty similar, in spite of having different mechanics.

[@SamFinklestein]

I agree on the maneuver side. The weapon masteries give plenty of that already. If you look at Topple, Push, and Cleave, they are just resource-free versions of Trip Attack, Pushing Attack, and Sweeping Attack. Sure, there are no "out of combat" weapon masteries, but I am not sure there are any that make sense.

[@isaac_marcus]

No time stamps since this one is vibes based Weapon Masteries are like, okay. I agree with everything y'all said. For Barbarian, the fact that Rage ends on just Incapacitated instead of Unconscious is huge. Also the fact that taking damage no longer extends it might come up a lot. Primal knowledge is weird. It gives you another proficiency from the class list. Why wait exactly 1 level for that? Also, I worry this will replace/discourage the general guidance in the books about using skills with alternate abilities. Finally, some things may need to be reworded or PK might not work with them, for example Pass Without Trace only works on DEXTERITY (Stealth), so Strength (Stealth) won't benefit. A lot of things are like that for Wisdom (Perception) too Not much to say on fighter, except Indomitable is such a weird half measure now. By the time you get it, it means when you use it you're gonna get an average of 19.5 + your saving throw bonus, and that only gets higher. It's very likely to just make the fighter succeed, so Indomitable should just let them succeed and not take up extra game time (this would be different if PF2e, where a crit success on a save can matter. Like breaking free from the Ahuizotl) I'm not super sold on the whole "class features as spells" thing. It seems like 4e powers lite. I'm not totally opposed, because it gives them a pretty easy template that tells you the range, time it takes, components. But I agree they should be placed with the class. I actually really like the sorcerer cantrip. Idk it just vibes with me really hard. IMPORTANT note, while Sorcerers and Warlocks do have spells "prepared" they can still only swap them out on level up, not each long rest. Wotzy changed what it meant to have spells "prepared", they had 5 UAs to warn us about that definition change, and they just let it be confusing for no reason. Warlocks.... where to begin. I agree the "people said warlocks didn't get to cast enough spells" missed the real point (one more spell slot at like 5 or 7 would have been fine imo...). Idk about the patron not coming until level 3, my friends and I joked that for the first 2 levels you're actually at a jobs fair and level 3 is signing on with your patron. Also, don't let them lie to you about getting an extra Invocation. Mystic Arcanum is an Invocation for each spell you take with it. So if you want a 6th-9th level spell, that's 4 Invocs. And the Hex change just feels bizarre. Wizards, I like the vibe of the spell crafting stuff (like the other commenter said, the slow and studied changing rather than the "in the moment" changes that Metamagic gives) but it's just so good rn. Thank god they finally fixed the wording on Arcane Recovery to be 1/Long Rest and not 1/Day (for all the Gritty Realism resters out there) Sorcerers can soft lock themselves out of their level 18 feature if they take Wish at 17, cast it, and then lose the ability to cast Wish. Also people really seem to think that losing the ability to cast wish is like an actual consequence, rather than just losing a tool. Wish is almost never the only way to solve a problem, so losing it is just a bit of extra time and resources needed for a task. Idk feels like a monkey's paw consequence is much more impactful. Overall, this UA felt mostly disappointing. Where's all the GWM and SS damage that was supposed to be moved to the Warriors? Why are some things clarified and other things aren't? Tridents are pretty good i guess? OH AND NETS ARE PRETTY GOOD. Otherwise yeah just kinda uninspired by it. Oh and why the f*** did they remove the changed Exhaustion condition? It better be "we wanted to save space" (which it's a digital document so how much space it really takes is nearly irrelevant...)

[@MonstersMulticlass]

Lmao your warlock rant is getting yoinked hard when we cover that. I didnt think about the mystic arcanum stuff. That really is a blow to them. All of your invocations are going to be spent on spells now instead of making your character feel unique. The patron coming on at 3, to me, feels like 1. You make contact and obtain a gift 2. You start to uncover a bit more 3. You learn the nature of your connection I like the first 3 levels being a bit fuzzy on the nature of your relationship. But I still usually like the Subclass at first level.

[@isaac_marcus]

@@MonstersMulticlass Yeah the patron at level 3 is definitely workable, I just feel like it's the Paladin Oath problem all over again. I wish they'd moved all subclasses to level 1 but I know that doesn't jive with everyone.

[@MonstersMulticlass]

No I'm with you though. It just front loads stuff too much for multiclassing usually. But I wouldn't mind if all level 1 subclass things were more ribbon abilities. Or even just a choice with no other benefits tbh

[@bobfrancis123]

I get why WoTC's changing the Rest Mechanic, essentially removing Short Rests. I can count on one hand the amount of times I used a Short Rest in my 4+year campaign. Now, that does mean a total rethink of Short Rest classes and abilities, hence Warlock becoming Half-casters. Also, I've believed DnD 5e (didn't play 3, 3.5 or 4), has suffered from Class Bloat. I don't understand why the Sorcerer exists from a class standpoint. It's always read "Why not just play Wizard?" to me. And I play a Bardcerer! Also, with the lack of Class specific skills, anyone with Survival becomes a Ranger or anyone with Thieves Tools becomes a Thief. As much as I love Rangers, does MODERN DnD need this class? Do you make it an Oath under Paladin? A subclass under Fighter? And Jarred has heard me rant on Monks many, many times. 5e had utterly failed in making in providing a purpose for some classes. In 2e, every Wizard wrote in their own Magical Formulae, it's why you always had Read Magic handy. So, Scribe Spell is a nothing burger to me. Lastly, Oh my god. I have to cross reference books? Laughs in 40k.

[@MonstersMulticlass]

I for one am a bit sad short rests are getting removed as much as they are. I feel like there's so much fun stuff in a classes kit and you can't get it all out in 1 combat. And HP as a resource drains way too quick to do multiple combats per long rest without regaining some of that inbetween. I just want shorter short rests. Make them 10 minutes so players are more likely to take them. It then assumes after a combat, you get a short rest. I get why they're making warlocks half casters, because without short rests you don't need em. But their class was also unique. And like you said too many classes have overlap. And it's just looking worse with OneD&D

[@sykune]

The wizard being able to modify spells through researh and formula is different from instantanous metamagic the sorcerers get. Wizard in 3.5 were the ones with metamagic as they had to prepare their spell with it at the begining of the day. Sorcerer casted spontanously no need prepare which why they had less spells. 5e flipped the script and gave meta magic to sorcerers due to innate magic, but still kept them with few spells known for balance. While wizards could eventually learn every spell but could modify via the schools of magic.

[@MonstersMulticlass]

I feel like they're having a really hard time figure out where sorcerers belong then and I don't understand why someone would rather play a sorc than a wizard. I feel they need to do more to differentiate the classes

[@sykune]

@@MonstersMulticlass sorcerer meta magic is on the fly and cost resources while wizards have cast literal spells to modify or make new spell. If you make the bloodline trait more in-depth it would help, I mean the remake of the draconic subclass works well it as flavor and uniqueness to actual sorcererous bloodline. Having subclass modifying the sorcerer linked spell is a start. I want to necromancy sorcerous origin where your arcane avatar state grants you undead traits and powers.

[@kwaksea]

If world is filled with (Full) Plate Armors, ones with Heat Metal spell scrolls are gods. Apperently I was not the only one hoped for Univertial Martial Manuevers even though weapon skills are not bad at all.

[@justinmichael9043]

“EQUIPPING AND UNEQUIPPING WEAPONS You can either equip or unequip one weapon when you make an attack as part of this action. You do so either before or after the attack. If you equip a weapon before an attack, you don’t need to use it for that attack. Equipping a weapon includes drawing it from a sheath, picking it up, or retrieving it from a container. Unequipping a weapon includes sheathing, stowing, or dropping it.” If you actually read these rules carefully, you will see that weapon juggling is not possible.

[@MonstersMulticlass]

Okay... So weapon juggling is still possible. Thanks for the reminder? What was misread? It's still very possible to use 3 weapons in 1 turn. Attack with a weapon, draw a dagger, throw the dagger, pull out 3rd weapon for 3rd attack and attack with it. Do you want to argue what juggling means or do you just want to keep being rude for no reason?

[@justinmichael9043]

My stomach sunk when I read your response; I sincerely wasn’t trying to be rude. I apologize. I wasn’t referring to throwing weapons, it was referring to juggling weapons to gain the benefit of multiple masteries in one turn. Let’s say you attack with weapon 1 with a mastery. By the above play-test rules you are allowed to draw OR drop that weapon as a part of that attack, not both. So let’s say you already had weapon 1 drawn. You attack with and then unequip weapon 1. If you have Extra Attack you cannot draw weapon 2 as a part of that same action because you just unequipped weapon 1.

[@MonstersMulticlass]

Then I apologize for my response. I misread your tone entirely. The phrasing of 'If you actually read the rules' came across rather negatively So starring fresh here, if you have a 2 handed weapon, nothing stops you from holding it one hand and not using it while you draw a one handed weapon. I think that's the easiest way this will be abused

[@justinmichael9043]

@@MonstersMulticlass I take your point, I should have phrased that better. Thank you! I did not think of your example. That would work on round one with a two-handed weapon in your off-hand; then you unequip the first weapon and attack with both hands on the second weapon? You would be back at square one on round two though. Personally I think that this is a good buff to two-weapon fighting. This gives it a nice bonus without being the same as PAM or CBE.

[@MonstersMulticlass]

Yeah im not entirely against it as a concept. I just don't like how 'optimal' it feels. Like if you want to inflict a lot of conditions, which is generally a good move. This is your best bet. Keep changing weapons. Until 13 when you can apply 2 different masteries with 1 weapon. Maybe I don't have the right way of explaining it, but it feels goofy to me that optimal play is strategizing the best way to use multiple weapons a turn