AoE2: DE | Best and Worst Tech Trees

Let's give a simple question a needlessly convoluted answer - the Ornlu way!
In this video I break down the three largest and three smallest civ tech trees in the game. Although I mostly just go by which civs have the most and fewest "X"s, I do have some caveats:
1. I am not counting the Eagle-line, Steppe Lancer-line, or Battle Elephant line one way or the other. They are what I would call psuedo-unique units, and shouldn't be considered when judging all civs
2. If a civilization bonus effectively replaces as specific tech, I won't count it against that civilization (e.g. I don't count Celts missing Squires against them because they get a better version of it for free as a civ bonus)
3. I don't really consider the American civs at all. They would indeed have the three worst tech trees due to not having the entire stable, as well as missing gunpowder. But Aztecs/Incas/Mayans are really their own sort of thing, and don't make a ton of sense to compare to the other 32 civs in the game.
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[@OrnLu_AoE]

As people have pointed out, I did slightly miscount Huns by skipping over Champions (which they miss), and then skipped from 15 to 17 after the Hun Dock... Thankfully those cancel each other out so I ended up with the correct number anyway lol. Also, Huns obviously miss Houses, but I skipped over that because... well I forgot 11... But I wouldn't count Houses against Huns anyway because they obviously do not need them as part of a civ bonus... so it all works out in the end! I AM SORRY I'M NOT PERFECT Kappa

[@brunothijs8956]

Ornlu might not be perfect but still the strongest unit to kill villagers!

[@encoreperformance1081]

XD

[@loganvervicos8395]

You could say that the lack of herbal medicine for Byzantines doesn’t count because they have faster healing monks. Also Goths have architecture which makes them better in university than Cumans.

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

The Byzantines may have the widest tech tree but almost none of their units are fully upgraded (only the arbalest and skirmisher), missing vital techs like blast furnace, bloodlines and siege engineers. They have all the options to counter enemy units, but going head-to-head against the same unit as the enemy is usually not in their advantage, they really have to use counter units instead of using brute force.

[@The_Room_2_Doggys_Revenge]

I think that's why a combination of either hand cannoneers or Cataphracts paired with a thrash units is so powerful for them : HA and Cataphracts are already powerful without needing more upgrades or bonus, you can pair them with a cheap unit that complements them (halbs with HA to counter cavalry, Cataphracts and skirms against archers)

[@robchang4533]

I still like Saracen Techtree waaaaay better than the byz techtree, because if you neglect water stuff, byz and saracen have the same amount of techs. And who cares about a water-techtree on land maps (same would be for heated-shot). And if you compare not only the overall quantity of lacking techs but the substructure looking at their FU units saracens overrule probably all other civs but especially byz. They have all land units FU except knights, halbs and Heavy Scorp whereas byz lacking techs are so distributed that they are missing FU Cav Archers, Champs, Halbs, Hussars, Knigths, Camels,Siege Onagers, Siege Rams, Heavy Scorp, BBT, Trebs Petards (yeah siege units are a bit knit-pickey and Monks. 3 vs 13 which is huge

[@BobRoss1793]

I just realised, Byzantines have access to all non-siege units. The only units they miss are SO und Heavy Scorpion

[@Edelweiss1102]

Guess my biggest wet dream would be either Arb or Bracer for Persians. Trash Crossbows are already crazy good even while missing both of these, and they would probably become broken with any of the two, and Bracer would also make their Skirmishers fully upgraded, lifting them to Spanish with having all Trash fully upgraded.

[@soko-ban]

just imagine Goths getting Eagles^^

[@thenayancat8802]

You didn't count missing champs for Huns?

[@brunothijs8956]

yea I think he skipped it, but he skipped counting 16 when going from dock techs to university so it evens out. Also, technically Huns miss the house which is counteracted by the civ bonus of not needing to build houses, but which Ornlu did not talk about. I also think Goths and CUmans missing stone walls and gates should not count as missing 2 techs but rather than 1 tech, as stone walls and stone gates in my opinion should be counted as one tech (there are no civs in the game that are missing only 1 of the two, and I don't expect that to ever happen with new civs or balance updates)

[@OrnLu_AoE]

It's hard to count and talk at the same time maen! D: It all works out in the end though, as Henk says

[@OrnLu_AoE]

@@brunothijs8956 Yeah fair point on Stone Walls/Stone Gates. And yeah I miscounted and forgot to mention houses.... but it all evened out in the end so I didn't notice 11

[@thenayancat8802]

@@OrnLu_AoE I was expecting you to notice that your numbers didn't match up so I tried to check what you'd mixed up to still arrive at the right number! Henk is more on the ball than me

[@julianxamo7835]

@@OrnLu_AoE Houses for huns would be like the others where the bonus replaces the tech (or in this case the building)

[@mikerolfe1842]

Khmer were a naval civ. Give them Shipwright and a second UU in the form of a boat. Do it.

[@agaifi]

I wouldn't count cav archers for any civs that don't have thumb ring.

[@OrnLu_AoE]

I disagree because you do actually see civs without TR go for cav archers sometimes (although it's obviously not great). But this is all just subjective and for fun :)

[@sauravtripathi4128]

Arambai anyone?

[@matthewmcneany]

Funny I don't think of Magyars as a narrow tech tree civ. They get FU arbs and FU knight line, which are nearly the only two things that matter. Siege is obviously super weak but Onager + engineers is good enough.

[@permafrost5229]

Fun fact: Magyars are the only the civ that can get FU archers and FU knights in post imp

[@MrTheQuestioner]

Always wish Vietnamese had more building upgrades, the rest of the tech trees seems to lend itself to a defensive style

[@The_Room_2_Doggys_Revenge]

Huns have one X that is affected by a bonus : house

[@teddyhaines6613]

I thought Turks might make it on here since they lack Elite Skirm, Pikeman, Onager, and a fair share of other stuff, but on reflection they've got a full Blacksmith and miss only one tech each from the Dock and University, so that makes up a lot. One note about Cumans vs. Goths at the University: Cumans lack Architecture, but Goths have it, no doubt as a reference to Gothic architecture. Which was originally called Frankish architecture, but I guess the Franks get that too, so fair's fair.

[@stefanandrejcik571]

Fun fact: Post imp. Malay cavalier is as strong as post imp saracen knight

[@Tpoleful]

How would post Imp Malay light cav fair against post imp Teuton Scout?

[@stefanandrejcik571]

@@Tpoleful that's the question of the day 🤔🤔😅😅

[@sauravtripathi4128]

@@Tpoleful Teuton Scouts better, except when a monk is needed to be killed as quickly as possible

[@permafrost5229]

And a post imp teuton scout is stronger than a post imp korean hussar 🤓

[@stefanandrejcik571]

@@permafrost5229 woow, really?

[@Prawn47]

Why is it questionable that Byzantine do or don't have bloodlines?

[@theinscrutablebaldness2597]

Either it's a possible future balance change or Ornlu is an epic troll.

[@robchang4533]

clips.twitch.tv/DrabMushyTildeDancingBanana And its a meme that a lot people demand byz bloodlines which is a nonsense meme

[@OrnLu_AoE]

As the clip that Rob posted suggests, it's a meme from my stream :P

[@sauravtripathi4128]

Some points I want to mention which no one else mentioned: 1. Cumans having Steppe Lancers should be awarded, since otherwise they are ignored completely. 2. Goth Infantry Armor should be counted, but Gold Shaft Mining should be waived, since the discount is too great, and at that point they would be mostly making Infantry, Trebuchets and Hussars.

[@lucamarino1226]

Ah yes the famous goths hussars

[@divicospower9112]

@@lucamarino1226 Realy not worse than Gothic canons...

[@Spiror]

Nice list !!! Give byz bloodlines pls haha.!!!

[@hbarudi]

Rise of rajas onwards I hate missing castle blacksmith techs why why why they did this instead of balance around the situation?

[@hansoskar1911]

My biggest techtree fail was that I thought I go Scouts with Ethiopians bc i can use my welcome gift to every age to get Bloodlines without seding Vils on Gold and make a 1,6 farms instead that help me making scouts. So I play a beautiful 19 pop scouts aaaaaand then they dont have bloodlines. -.-

[@koolguy751]

*laughs in Lone scout rushes*

[@zekleinhammer]

Nice video. Interesting that the worst civ by this metric is a top tier civ. I think the last infantry armor should count against goths because they can lose champions battles to FU champions. The tech I most want to see is mongols getting anarchy for their mangudai (jk)

[@robchang4533]

For huns its basically the poor dock and university that make them worst of the non-american civs, but that doesnt really matter if you have strong variety of units

[@212mochaman]

Cant beat an enemy you can't hit. Buffed scouts in feudal and cav archers are the most OP generic unit when massed and raiding on 3 fronts. Huns are literally the only civ that can do that

[@hansoskar1911]

wuat? the trading fee is 20% I thought its 30%. the market starts at 70/130 for Food and Wood. I dont think count the Xs is particularly useful. byzantines have few Xs in the Stable but missing Bloodlines means everything but the castle age Camels utterly suck. while Spanish miss Xbow and Arb in the Range but the skirms are super fine. Also why do you care about useful answers, I thoguht this is the channel of "technically correct is the best kind of correct, Inc."

[@OrnLu_AoE]

Yeah I misspoke about Market rate - it is indeed 30%. Guilds cuts that in half to 15%, and Saracens get 5%. And the problem with going any more subjective than I actually did would be that everything would become super debatable... I mean the comments in this video already suggest I pushed it too far 11

[@seleukosnikator7347]

I would have count the last armor for the Goths. For the Byzantines I would not count herbal médicine because their monks heal faster but I would count architecture. And it's very funny at last because Cumans have better infantry than Byzantines. Only 9 techs missing for them but they have such a poor tech tree. No blast furnace means below average infantry and horsmen. No bloodline means even more below horsemen (their unique unit is… ja a horsman). No siege engineers and no heated shots.

[@teddyhaines6613]

Both Byzantines and Spanish seem like they have a million options, and yet are so predictable in practice. If the Byzantines aren't going trash, they're going Arbalest because that's the only thing they have that's fully upgraded, while Spanish will go for Conquistadors because those are so much stronger than their other options.

[@theinscrutablebaldness2597]

I'd like to see Turks get something to boost their midgame, like maybe getting elite skirm, but losing ring archer armour or something. Persians with heresy just to make War Elephants more viable.

[@raynightshade8317]

Losing archer armor hits their gunpowder units rather hard

[@nathanvanbeek5308]

@@raynightshade8317 I am not sure, because it only comes into play in imperial age. You still have extra hp for your gunpowder and want to play with HCA most of the time (which also suffer of course, but also have sipahi) But I think just giving elite skirm would be fine. The only thing I hear peolple who are opposed to this say is that it ruins the civs indentity. Well, they still wont have pikemen I guess..

[@robchang4533]

There is one simple answer: Free Ballistics, Remove their nonsense -50% on all gunpowder techs and make it: Free Ballistics/Chemistry (university required)

[@raynightshade8317]

@@nathanvanbeek5308 They need elite skirmishers but i feel nerfing the gunpower would not be agood

[@theinscrutablebaldness2597]

@@nathanvanbeek5308 I agree that getting elite skirm on its own is probably fine. The main thing keeping them in the lower tiers is the lack of a decent eco bonus and as long as that doesn't change they are never going to be op.

[@Dawnrim]

vikings with cav armor and bloodlines (and palas, but now I might be asking for too much). spamming heavy cav on viking eco would be broken

[@AbhijeetBorkar]

Indians with Heavy Cav would be OP

[@aniruddhbhatkal1834]

Battle of the exes 😛

[@hytokz9341]

If byzantines had bloodlines it would be quite good

[@alian6965]

I'm kinda surprised since when got cumans such a poor techtree

[@XtReMz98]

Franks with bloodlines ❤️🤓

[@The_Room_2_Doggys_Revenge]

Vikings with halbs would be so op, tho their pikes are actually better against cavalry than generic halbs

[@pepijngeorge9959]

I don't think they would realy be that strong, halb isn't a unit that you can push with or can fight anyother unit with than cav, meaning halbs do very good against that already, viking halbs would be a bit stronger, only know it would kill the enemy paladin as fast as normal halbs. They would have 6 more hp. Meaning japanese halbs would still be as strong.

[@anilkumarb6713]

@@pepijngeorge9959 They also get chieftains, 5 extra bonus damage for infantry against cavalry. And I think it might be 12 more hp.... 20% more hp bonus for infantry, if my memory serves me right

[@pepijngeorge9959]

@@anilkumarb6713 The +5 would give them 42 damage vs paladins vs the normal 37 => would still result in to killing paladins in 5 hits. And yeah they get +12hp over normal halbs or +6 hp over viking pikemen

[@harooooo1]

Rigged for Byzantines 11