osu!mapping: new mapper decisions

talking about decision making as a new mapper through my own and other mappers' experiences, while also covering some aspects of the editor and the loved section i wouldn't have a chance to discuss elsewhere.
special thanks to mr sukinathan for answering a bunch of questions
patreon: / pishifat
twitter: / pishifat
old snapping sliders video: • Video
old version of cello map: www.dropbox.com/sh/fupdeh53ia...
podcast: • osu!talk Discussion - ...
apologies to the guys whose maps i use as examples for lame maps in the loved section
maps referenced:
USAO - Dynamite (Extended Mix) by Nathan: osu.ppy.sh/s/431697
YURiKA - Shiny ray (TV Size) by gottagof4ast: osu.ppy.sh/s/584389
Kikuo - Ten Sho Sho Ten Sho by Squigly: osu.ppy.sh/b/451362
Suzuki Konomi - Absolute Soul by Owntrolf: osu.ppy.sh/s/255287
SUPER BEAVER - Rashisa by handsome: osu.ppy.sh/s/190486
Days N' Daze - Misanthropic Drunken Loner by pishifat: osu.ppy.sh/s/442587
ClariS - Hitorigoto TV MIX by Doormat: osu.ppy.sh/s/596704
Torleif Thedeen - Suite Nr.1 G-Dur, BWV 1007 I. Prelude by pishifat: osu.ppy.sh/s/160528
Hanatan - Kokoronashi by pishifat: osu.ppy.sh/b/1263933
AKINO from bless4 - Just Moving On Now by Setz: osu.ppy.sh/b/679241
Tomatsu Haruka - courage by Monstrata: osu.ppy.sh/b/660818
Yunomi - Harajuku Sunny Day by Nathan: osu.ppy.sh/s/532325
Pierce The Veil - May These Noises Startle You In Your Sleep Tonight by pishifat: osu.ppy.sh/b/422580
Camellia - Chirality by Nathan: osu.ppy.sh/s/350656
Camellia - overcomplexification by Nathan: osu.ppy.sh/s/310312
cillia - FIRST by Nathan: osu.ppy.sh/b/719902
tofubeats - CANDYYYLAND feat. LIZ (Pa's Lam System Remix) by Nathan: osu.ppy.sh/s/591302
YUC'e - Sengoku HOP (c/f Athenarium) by Nathan: osu.ppy.sh/s/564329
YUC'e - Future Candy by Nathan: osu.ppy.sh/s/546820

[@ssamowo6478]

don't be handsome, don't be fat, be nathan

[@mindmaster_osu]

sam i want this framed

[@takoihina4731]

pishithin

[@daudabdulhakimnaufal9832]

@@takoihina4731 lmaooo

[@Speedshot55]

i actually did the Nathan method as well, i mapped a bunch of GDs for friends over the span of ~7 months and then felt competent enough to rank. and surely enough, after a few weeks, i ranked my first map. pretty neat that this shows practice and patience are the best

[@drxgyn8623]

Reimu but how would you know that you're getting better at mapping within that time?

[@bananya6020]

Masterz you'll find your own maps are more fun I haven't ranked a map but I can still feel it

[@Stacked_]

I am the mapper of the little witch academia (2nd one in the video) song and he pretty much hit it spot on for the not wanting to give up part. I don't quite agree on the wasted time part as it took me around one month and a half of modding that map until I got the requirements for loved, and during that time I learned alot a remapped my song multiple times. At the start my map was complete garbage as I had no clue what I was doing spacing flow and rhythmwise By remapping and taking more mods over and over I got an understanding of more aspects of mapping, when I eventually reached the reqs for loved though I was tired of it and wanted to move on, I decided on submitting it into loved rather then letting it get graved. From then with the concepts I learned of that map I mapped a couple of maps for the grave exactly like what Pishi said in the video, single diff sets where i try to improve the things that could be done better in my other maps. Just recently did i start mapping full sets again and it's going quite a bit better now as it doesn't look as goddamn random as it used to Do I actually think I wasted too much time on my first set I made? No, I really don't feel like that, beacause by improving my map out of trashmap tier I got into the still trash but acceptable tier where people actually liked my map and motivated me to keep going. If I stopped on that map earlier then I would have never gotten the satisfaction of seeing someone play my map and enjoy it and I would have probably not have been mapping today. Ps: please Pishi, you chose like the worst part of the entire set to show q_q Also you spelled my name wrong

[@teomas]

yoo i love your maps stack

[@Stacked_]

@@teomas thanks a lot man

[@weisstdujanicht]

Don't be like Pishi, be like Nathan

[@DerpyHooves419]

Pishifat hand reveal 4:20

[@tranqui6302]

his hand is seen in several earlier videos though?

[@QS1597]

Bon Tran blaze it

[@aphelion2]

nice

[@Coult909]

nice pun at the end

[@cheese1191]

Coult909 Nathan's first ranked map is named "FIRST" LOL WTF XD

[@Khang-kw6od]

His voice is becoming less and less monotone....

[@M4TTYN]

tell incomp of skinhouse this

[@MaemiNoYume]

thank you Pishifat!! I feel better about my decisions now. I actually make most of my maps with the goal to rank, but I endup giving up before even getting mods (in most of them). In this procces I already mapped 66 maps and I still feel that I am not prepared to rank a map. This video showed me that I'm not just wasting my time. Thank you

[@ijefem]

Thanks for the vid, I'm was about to be in the same situation. I submitted a map not too long ago with the intention of getting ranked, despite me being a total amateur. And I can see the mistakes I would have made, personally I started mapping in hopes of providing "better" maps. Cuz I was unhappy with what was getting ranked and what wasn't. But I realize even if a map is well received =/= rankable. And like any skill mapping takes many tries. And that's why in the end, it's best for me to give up mapping all together. Thanks for this vid it really opened my eyes to a lot, and stopped me from making anymore mistakes

[@pkerkid999]

Honestly the best way to learn mapping to just have fun making the maps.

[@portalpasha1337]

Your voice is very understandable I'm reaaly thankful about it.

[@thatha137]

I really enjoyed the new editing

[@helenthaxter8203]

Thank you for this video! I haven't finished a single beatmap and not working on my other ones lol Haven't been able to see the whole video yet because of time, but I like your videos and I want to become a better beatmapper too.

[@mookyspooky]

clean your keyboard

[@pishifat]

i was waiting for this comment

[@Mirek..K]

Pff not even dirty. Check out mine. :3 imgur.com/a/RuIsH (Edit. I commented the wrong fkin link)

[@mookyspooky]

bitch what the fuck

[@uby]

how is that even possible

[@castingdefects]

Mirek Kudinoff holy f

[@MissingNo0001]

8:40 i like how the voice syncs with the cello lmao

[@maxshibanov818]

wow, very educational, thank you!

[@sadfacekira]

I suck at mapping but everytime pishi uploads I feel motivated c:

[@Cynimun06]

god damnit pishi why do you have to put me on blast here. but real talk, mapping the normal GD for that song was probably the hardest thing I ever did the whole time I mapped. it was the only DQ i ever caused. T.T

[@Hobbes2]

Great how all of this stuff that would have helped new me so much comes out a year after I need it feelsbadman

[@themelancholyofgay3543]

i learned the thing green ticks when i was resnapping objects on a map with the wrong, it was a valuable experience. i was happy i didn't have to experience pishi's roundabout way

[@meep8132]

my loved map was in there for at least 0.7s im famoos!!

[@this_too_shaII_pass]

Lol I was just sitting and fiddling with my first attempt at a somewhat playable map, and hearing that you did this for your second ranked map, I suddently feel inifinitely inadequate considering I didn't even succeed in changing the slider velocity for a few seconds without fucking up the timing on the entire map xD

[@porochu8871]

i love nathan

[@gaaraati]

On one hand, Pishi this is a very nice video and all of your videos on mapping are useful af, on the other hand though: I don't want to map standard but CTB, and I feel like in other modes mappers are more reserved and not so open about new ideas and new styles unless a big mapper starts a trend with a new style. Everytime I check standard maps I see new names and new styles which is a very great thing but until the mappers and mods in other modes keep up this attitude CTB, Mania and taiko (mostly just CTB and Taiko) won't catch up (no pun intended) with the continuously varying/changing mapping styles of std mod. I would like to tell this to some mappers but even if they agreed they wouldn't to a thing to change this.

[@ExplosiveBrohoof]

How can you tell when you don't suck at mapping anymore, and how can you tell how much more work your map needs before it becomes ready to rank? I don't see any problems with the map I currently have, but that might just be because I don't know enough about style to see the problems that it has. That being said, I don't know how many are left lingering in the depths of it. Many mods are in the same position as me (I've gotten about 18 mods by this point, and I think only one or two of them have ever ranked a map of theirs), so I can't always rely on them to tell me whether I'm good or bad.

[@HallidayASR]

You can tell your map is ready when you can *objectively* justify everything on it, from patterns, rhytm density, arrangements: Everything. It's not about not seeing anything wrong with your map, of course no one can perceive the flaws of their own work, that's what mods are for; It's about being confident enough about your map, it's about being ready to perfectly counter any argument against it. You can obtain that kind of knowledge by modding, not kudo farming modding, but *true modding*. Kibbleru says *a mod is just as worthy as the time you spend on it*. When you take the time to really analyze someone elses map and try understand what and why they did things one way or another, you can expand your own pattern library and, most important, you can start asking yourself things like ¿Did my map handled ***** just as reasonable as this guy did? Etc. etc.

[@pacboy5434]

now it s time to ask good moders to mod your map . it s harder to have a mod of theses guys but you have to if you want to improve

[@milosmiljkovic5975]

When you can objectively justify is when you're a decent mapper. When you can provide your subjective thoughts to modders and players, then that's when you're a good mapper with something unique.

[@ksiyaskid]

This... a lot of these TV size maps he SEEMS to be bashing on seem just fine to me and are fun to play imo. So i dont really know how to tell if im making a piece of garbage or if im making something good.... Sounds like its all just preference (so long as its within the rules).

[@bananya6020]

you're always bad

[@snalgae]

i found this video through the map because apperantely my favourite genres of music are not really popular i didnt expect finding some channel that i found some time ago

[@mezelyus-]

Was it really worthless focusing on that one map if it made you learn complex timing,which you are basically famous for along with charles? A new mapper couldnt possibly learn this from a tv size map with basic timing they've been trying to rank so I'd say its a weak comparison

[@katl8825]

but a new mapper's goal is probably to just make rankable, fun maps... pishi's point is the amount of time he spent timing and then trying to force every other aspect of the map to match the timing (instead of focusing on Concepts and blahblah) for that Bach was not efficient, especially considering how little he'd mapped at that time.

[@huuishuu]

I feel like I will be one of those mappers who will never have a map ranked. I've been mapping since June 2015 but it still feels like my mapping is pretty stagnant. The way I approach mapping though is that with every different map that I make, I attempt something new, such as jump flow, proper stream mapping, etc. Sure I'd love to get a map into ranked or loved one day, but I personally don't have a problem if I never reach that goal in the first place. To me, as a mapper - I find community enjoyment better than any sort of shiny "Ranked" text on your map. I usually hear from various people, friends, strangers, banned players, etc. about how much they love my maps and that on its own is enough for me to keep going in mapping.

[@mulraf]

oh god. this is me sooo much. 1/16 soo much. "how bad is it?" Soo much! people telling me i would have to redo the whole thing if i want it ranked and yet i refuse so much. >30 SR so much :x personally the thing that kept me going the most was actually not wasting the others time. like i still remember 5 years ago "shulin" helped me a lot getting started with editing. i wanted to rank that first map, that she helped me on, for her sake too so that the time wouldn't be wasted. but idk. sometimes you really gotta know "it's time to stop!". with that said, osu!catch mapping seems to be more my thing. same goes for playing the gamemode itself. sometimes you just need to play around a bit and gain experiences :x

[@faizyusuf2470]

make a video on the beatmap notepad.osu

[@burrito1737]

nathan maps are so fun

[@misterdinner3648]

Holy shit this was uploaded on my 17th birthday. Also i remember when handsome showed up to my modding queue and i was losing my shit because this man who was a massive legend in my eyes was requesting mod from me. Of course, his map was unchanged from my shitty mod of this map that was seemingly perfect seeing as monstrata among others were the first to mod the map.

[@lev7994]

i literally have the worse ever headache and i want to sleep but you give me so much motivation to map i cannot sleep, thank you but frick you >:b

[@pixelbyte4886]

My first map was Shelter Yeah I gave up on it once monstrata's version was ranked. one day i'll get a ranked map

[@turquoise7817]

i didn't even know what mods were when i made my first map lol

[@kingtut6243]

holy fuck im so inspired by this

[@mohzmagdy]

Something I'd want to add (I'm a new mapper so don't take my word for it) is to try mapping different genres of music as they have different mapping style instead of just sticking to the same genre

[@WhytFng]

how many graveyarded maps does it take to get to the center of a tootsie-roll tootsie pop?

[@borisborisov54]

So how much time did you spend on your 2nd map?Weeks?Months?

[@pishifat]

6:43 tho

[@borisborisov54]

pishifat no idea how I missed that even though i focused to find it in the video, guess I focused on it after you said it.

[@Opblaasmaatje]

He might take four months to get it. also WHERE IS MY CRIOSSANT MAP?

[@obee58]

absolute soul

[@SF3098]

hey can I have the black background with editor and gameplay field thing on the side?

[@creeperarmor8078]

is the map good no how do i fix it watch pishifat i already did well then i have nothing else

[@erafanam520]

pishi, can you send the link of the TWICE song at 0:28? thx :3

[@diegoharo8263]

thank you uwu

[@tkilele]

Anyone have tips on how to find songs to map that are about a minute and a half long? I haven't watched a lot of anime so anime openings aren't an option, the game soundtracks I like are pretty much 5min+, and the songs I listen to are too long or hard to map.

[@Yogii0000]

cut the mp3

[@fkeyzuwu]

TKILELE ye just download audacity or somthn and cut the mp3 with a fadeout at the end or somethn

[@den0saur]

try to pick some beatmania or sdvx songs, they are usually amazing. google remywiki for more info

[@bananya6020]

you can look up on google and cut it to 1:50, just try to find a song that also fits other criteria, pishi has a video on this

[@g2h5j3]

Am mapping for 2 years, started mapping around 150 Songs in total, uploaded 5 finished, didn't try to rank any of them, recieved 1 Mod in total, haven't uploaded anything since 1 year. What should i do?

[@BigDBrian]

100% agree

[@CamelliaFlingert]

I want to mapping, but every time when i trying to understand how to do this or trying to map something i just instantly becomes exhausted and falls into depression, i just can't do anything with this, i have this trouble with everything in my life, i can't DO anything in this life, anything what i tries to do destroying me... i don't know how to live happily with this shit... i don't have a normal brains which would understand everything and would be able to assimilate information and being able to create anything. I don't have a problems with rhythm, but i just don't understand what to put here and there, notes or sliders, how shapes they should be, how long or short they should be, how fast or slow they should be, how notes should follow each other notes, i just can't do anything with it, my maps correctly by rhythm, but they unplayable and just looks awful from aesthetic side, i don't have any creativity and imagination and phantasy, i don't have it at all, i don't know what to do.

[@Attewir]

holy shit that older version looks like it'd be hella fun to play, still got it somewhere?

[@pishifat]

in the description

[@asmylia9880]

5:42 link to the video pls? :(

[@inoariusu]

Nice

[@srbosu]

Yo pishi can you do full video for hollow wongs?

[@srbosu]

hollow wings*

[@chaoticneutral1090]

but how do I know if I learned how to map when every map I make has a different degree of quality *throws mouse at keyboard*

[@zepperyn]

Chaotic Neutral when you feel it duuuuuuuddee

[@chaoticneutral1090]

ZeppyTheGuy hmmmm im feeling it right now duudee

[@majesticgopher115]

How does a mapper know when the point comes that means that they should ditch the current map and move on? How is one supposed to know when their map is no longer salvageable?

[@bananya6020]

when you want to move on move on

[@Genesis_LX]

Be Like Nathan

[@bored.1315]

This might sound like a dumb question but what does TV size mean? Like the background is the opening or something?

[@trashokahn1445]

StarChaez TV Size means the Song is not complete, its the version that is used for an opening for a series/film. For example: Real Song is around 3 minutes. Opening song is around 1.5 minutes. The short one is called TV Sized.

[@bananya6020]

it means the size (length) of the song is cut short to be aired on TV. TV, size. TV size.

[@kireina7867]

Nice :3

[@BrainyDaSkull]

HOW DO YOU REMOVE THE BACKGROUND IMAGE IN THE EDITORRRRRRRRR

[@Pop-gj9iv]

My only goal is to map Battle Against the Masked Man heck u

[@mohzmagdy]

Am I the only one that likes the video before even watching it :thinking:

[@arisameru]

why is there an exclamation point in every disc of ur metal maps

[@malevolution7041]

Probably as a placeholder.

[@BitCritterSpyro]

My new mapper decision: > put circles in a level > spam kudosu > click the circles > profit

[@DastardlyNun]

huehuehue, i have no idea whatimdoing

[@MCHealo9999]

No dislikes till now. Lets keep it that way!

[@minnin4132]

oh, i never asked for mods on my first few maps..

[@vaarka7534]

pun

[@Baylow]

5:40 U WERE SO CUTE ITS TRUE

[@kirohai]

what skin r u using?

[@jaehokim3965]

what size do you keep your cursor at?

[@pishifat]

.92x with auto scaling

[@commentator3513]

ピしふぁとは可愛いです！

[@kecHik445]

pishi always cute

[@somedudethatdoesthings8057]

AY

[@deso2]

hello there nacht 100

[@pishifat]

persistency is key

[@darkdecliner]

more like nacht 100 star priority

[@fabian6514.cr3]

deso WHY ARE THERE SO MANY PEOPLE WRITING NIGHT IN GERMAN?!?!?!

[@D3CD95]

OwnWolf roasted

[@Sarcastitonea]

how the hell did you spend this much time on your second map? most people give up on their first 5 and then give up forever lmao

[@danielyuan9862]

Because he was determined, but he was going the wrong way.

[@mikaellarsson5087]

i miss zambeis

[@Jmannorway]

uber g hue

[@carlosdumbratzen6332]

I wish I would know how to get mods ............... :(

[@frost-fg8yu]

He made a video on that

[@carlosdumbratzen6332]

but nobody wants to be my mod ._.

[@bananya6020]

carlos dumbratzen ask people without maps, e.g. online friends who also messed around with mapd

[@billy-qc9qy]

Which skin is that?

[@hamanahamana3799]

map at 10:50?

[@pishifat]

unsubmitted :(

[@hamanahamana3799]

rip

[@pzrc9457]

hi

[@Speykious]

It's frustrating, but your first map will necessarily be a failure. Just like your first plays. :/

[@cheese1191]

okay, straightforward question You've ranked a map. Now what?

[@den0saur]

there is already a video about this

[@cheese1191]

which one lo

[@den0saur]

eeeh cant tell exactly what video that was, but it was released relatively not very long ago

[@boundforward9469]

This video is so weird because my name is Nathan.

[@ARandomGuy]

im nathan but cannot improve lmao

[@jfermasasi8500]

WHATS THE SKIN

[@whuppo]

first

[@pishifat]

grat

[@Defqon.]

Man you talk so fast cant even keep track lol

[@tearstone8231]

the hello there sounds more bright today do you have a girlfriend

[@OfLastingThunder]

So for a long time now your videos, while well made and informative are NOT about mapping. While all of your points are good and easy to understand, you aren't really teaching how to map anymore. There are very few portions of the videos where you show a pattern example within a map, but that doesn't really help. Instead of making 100 videos on each arbitrary portion of mapping, why not make a 20-30 minute video of you going through the motions of creating a map and speaking on your decisions to give us some insight as to why you are placing things where you are, how you are choosing to handle a particular rhythm etc. These videos are entertaining and informative but do absolutely nothing to teach people how to actually map anything without a good example of the process being gone through from start to finish.

[@pishifat]

next week's video is gonna be perfect for you

[@OfLastingThunder]

Awesome, I'll be watching. Thanks for not outright refuting my point. Lol

[@parthodox]

Learn to map before you can map. Simple

[@solitaire836]

When pishi said "nathan improved by getting general feedback from various mappers" how would someone go about getting this feedback? Won't mappers have too many requests to deal with one small mapper without any loved or ranked sets?

[@bananya6020]

more clearly, most people who somewhat know how to map (e.g. 1 ranked map) will be too nervous to mod good mappers' maps and will mod yours as a sort of test, so don't worry and don't ask someone like Frostmourne or whatever to mod your map or you'll almost always never get any where

[@tearstone8231]

the hello there sounds more bright today do you have a girlfriend