Our biggest difference with Neanderthals - David Reich

[@tayzonday]

Parrots got a vocal tract that can make many sounds too. I wonder what evolutionary pressure caused that?

[@porkmilk8984]

Always awesome to see you commenting Tay

[@gyozop]

Parrots are monogamous. Thus it is the wife saying do this do that to the husband.

[@timmyhenningsson9276]

My respects sir

[@jondrew55]

Cracker tract?

[@fuckman297]

My grl gave me chocolate brain last night

[@toi_techno]

Neanderthals definitely had a more sophisticated grasp of language than all TikTok users

[@robertkern3887]

True not. Me talk good you. Dab dab hyman.

[@chofaimporovitch1543]

Dude, you made me LOL!

[@anonperson3972]

Skibidi Ohio rizz, no cap.

[@Iceican]

Uggg Grugg Unga Bunga cowabunga URGGGG

[@trumpius_maximus47]

@@IceicanMaga waga, build back better

[@SteveBull-tg8mi]

Less we get too proud of ourselves, its worth remembering that Neanderthals existed on the Earth far longer than we have.

[@jakobvaldma7475]

so have worms, what about it?

[@infinitejest441]

@@jakobvaldma7475😄

[@Woodman-Spare-that-tree]

Whites have Neanderthal DNA, so what you are saying is that Whites have been around longer than all other races.

[@infinitejest441]

@@Woodman-Spare-that-tree Ok, Karen

[@johnrobinson4445]

Short version: we talked the other species to death.

[@lanierosenberg]

LOL!

[@gstlb]

Some of us excel at this but have turned off the gene that says when to stop.😂

[@Brent-z2s]

Nagging is very effective.

[@jasoncolleran2178]

😂

[@anonperson3972]

This guy is a great example of how that happened

[@stefanthorpenberg887]

The idea that neanderthals had no language is very old. We can always stare at genes and try to interpret them. But if we check the Bruniquel cave in Languedoc, we know that neandrthals build circles of stalagmites in a total dark cave, that they burned meat from a cave bear, and that they had some 36 fires there, so they visited the cave at least some 30 times, and there was a tent there from a hide. So… to get all that together, they first need torches, a hide, meat, and the original idea why it was necessary to build circles in the dark from some 400 stalagmites that they broke off from the cave floor. Most likely it was some ritual they had 330 meter into an absolute dark cave. Now, imagine that you should organize all that without a language? That you could only show some signs, and say ugh ugh? It’s impossible. But did they have the same complex language as we have today? No, absolute not. But sapiens did not have that complex language either at that time. The complexity of language comes much later, in the beginning of civilisation and written language. But it’s a cultural development, not a genetic.

[@Cdearle]

Excellent comment

[@douginorlando6260]

Not just more articulation with more distinct phonemes, a thought process that develops more around language and less around spatial relationships. Lines of reasoning can sound logical based on meanings and associations that words bring to mind. The whole legal system is based on words with only a nod to moral sensitivities. The legal system has evolved via prior interpretation of words and phrases into a detailed map of subtle differences that go beyond common usage. The legal profession becomes a game where reality only matters in so far as it affects perception, and perception is driven by language. Evidence for language driving the thought process is when half way through describing a problem to someone, you suddenly realize the answer … the act of verbally explaining the problem makes the solution obvious. On the other hand, lines of reasoning can be founded on spatial awareness which gives a different intuitive feel that guides making sense. This approach is a useful extrapolation of innate awareness of surroundings and proximity linked to security,protection, belonging, hunting. It becomes a powerful framework to science, math, quantitative relationships. For example, Gaussian surfaces with enclosed volumes are the foundation of the first law of Thermodynamics and also leads to Maxwells’s famous equations that explain electricity, magnetism and radiation. Verbal skills are not conducive to math … try telling someone an equation and going through the solution of a problem that requires a set of equations (it’s very difficult to follow because written equations are very spatial on paper and many variables & constants must be meticulously taken together in context without error. The Sumerians had a sophisticated written system for math including a written numbering system tied to astronomy and accounting. Also for plots of land including calculating area using summation of squares, rectangles, triangles,trapezoids, and then verifying the area by calculating the summation of geometric shapes but with the map turned 90 degrees. One more consideration … written language and spoken language invoke similar but different thought processes, even on the same subject matter.

[@emilythequeen1]

It’s both cultural and genetic. Genes are moved quickly.

[@RPhTom]

Native Americans used SIGN LANGUAGE.

[@lqr824]

If the development were only cultural, not genetic, there'd have been no pressure to select for the methylation in today's humans. It was clearly strongly selected for, indeed so strongly that there seems to be no trace of people without it anywhere. They ALL died off. In contrast, eye color, say, doesn't seem to be selected for, so even 5000+ years since non-brown eye colors mutated into existence, they don't wipe out people with brown eyes nor vice versa.

[@jamesswanson3419]

Could Neanderthals have had a whistle language such as survives in the canary islands and doesn't need a sophisticated vocal tract. In fact, hunters still communicate with whistles at times and so it seems this may have been an early stage of language in hunting societies.

[@julesgosnell9791]

I think a mixture of sign language and vocalisations more likely...

[@man_at_the_end_of_time]

​@@julesgosnell9791Miming can communicate at lot but it tends to contextual and in the now. I hear myself make noises of rage and grief that were clearly primal. I recall a woman with many making very primal sounds of delight for the adjacent room.

[@VonAggelby]

No. Only violent grunts and snarls.

[@KRYPTOS_K5]

The argumentation of Reich goes deeper... You should consider the entire Reich argument: Neander are very similar to modern humans even in the Brocas brain and the genotype of their brains and cognition (this is questionable but ok he is in fact politically correct). But 70ooo years ago, the modern humans by pure lucky chance establish a new epigenetic pattern with amall anatomic modifications in their vocal apparatus. It was the result of a tiny changing in a CG pathway of methylation of certain genes which controls de development of some part of the anatomy (glote, laringes, pharingys). It implies following the real authors rationale that a similar changing in the neander would have the same impact and the same unique and radical transformation. It was neither the result of selective pressure nor a mutation linked to future speciation but it was pure epigenetic serendipity. So tiny and so vast as the randomness of the universe. It endorses my point of view that we are alone in the universe. The great filter is behind us. Brasil

[@mikmop]

Cetaceans, including whales and dolphins, use clicks to communicate. So if you were smart enough, you could communicate without a vocal tract. And nowadays, we ourselves of course can communicate with just our hands using sign language.

[@TheStrangeBloke]

It seems very plausible to me that even without these changes you'd still have language of some kind, but a less articulate form. After all, language is an essential aspect of human social behavior, and neandertals exhibit the social behavior, so it follows they'd have some kind of language even if it lacked some of the traits of modern human languages.

[@JorgeGarcia-lw7vc]

Think Abkhaz with dozens of consonants and only two vowels, or Khoisan click languages. These features don't require vocalization.

[@carolinacarsolio5476]

@@JorgeGarcia-lw7vc right. Also sounds or signs made with the hands, feet, etc. can be used. We are sooo focused on talking languages that is difficult to imagine otherwise

[@Morfeusm]

Yes for example sign language famously doesn’t need any voice (I mean this seriously even if it’s obvious).

[@kaguth]

As he said they were just as smart as us so I'm sure they'd figure out ways to communicate albeit likely not in as complex a language as early homo-sapiens

[@davidwuhrer6704]

​@@kaguthOr maybe a more complex language, just not an entirely spoken one.

[@oldernu1250]

Read a study that suggested Neanderthal s had a higher voice pitch and were unable to make certain speech sounds, due to different structures in larynx, throat muscles, other tissues. David Reich is so insightful. We have so much to learn.

[@seamusoblainn]

Ever see the BBC documentary where they had a speech pathologist, I think she was, help her assistant to emulate their speech. It was a hoot

[@jahuti5065]

This is a very good point but it doesn't mean that Denisovans and Neanderthals could not speak, only that their speech would have differed somewhat from modern humans. A modern human with a deformity or injury to the vocal mechanism can still speak because their brain is designed to do so, even if their speech is affected somewhat. If they could find evidence of Neanderthal or Denisovans brains having less developed speech centres then that would be far more significant.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

It does mean that their languages must have been different from what most people think of as language. That is, their spoken languages may have had more in common with yodeling or whistling or sign language than with the spoken languages people commonly think of. Which is interesting, but tells us nothing about the complexity of their languages. Were they context free or recursive? How could we know?

[@actionjksn]

Humans were having sex with them so they were obviously able to talk. Did this scientist even consider this I wonder?

[@Woodman-Spare-that-tree]

Exactly like this speaker’s own speech defect for example

[@altontacoma]

The visuals were very helpful, thank you!

[@springfieldbearpatrol2937]

What's cool about Neanderthals is we have fossils/skulls for comparisons, plus we sequenced DNA (99.7% match for humans). Looking at the skulls you can infer a different topology. Bigger eye sockets, eyes higher up on the face, thick brow, and of most interest > the occipital bun. The thought here is that the brain was different with that occipital bun housing the "vision processing" parts of the brain. Whereas modern humans have eyes lower, and brain sitting more so above the eyes with a flat forehead. The theory is that humans have this different layout for cognitive functions. Incoming speculation: it's likely humans were a bit more dynamic - we could out think, out plan, out organize, out network, out communicate, and out compete the other hominids - based on our unique design. Much of that is speculation. But think about Neanderthals living in extreme north climates - they need better vision and more robust bodies to survive. Perhaps more so than communication skills. I'm not answering the question about Neanderthals having language - I have no idea. I'm just speculating that the old axiom of Neanderthals being a bit more brutish and simplistic may be true. Certainly they were highly capable - they survived for hundreds of thousand of years.

[@StoccTube]

That’s an interesting reflection. I read / heard that Neanderthal had burial rituals, looked after their sick, created early art, made jewellery, stone tools and hand axes, and made spears, which makes me lean towards them being social and likely to have had a language. Pure speculation on my part, but it appears their extinction (albeit we have some Neanderthal DNA in our genome today) was likely the result of climate change (ice age) keeping their population low in the last 20K years of their 350K+ year existence (far longer than modern humans have been around).

[@springfieldbearpatrol2937]

@@StoccTube i hope that is why. Seems there's calamity everywhere humans go... Look at all the Megafauna that disappeared in North America, around the same time humans appeared....

[@cecileroy557]

And - wall art in caves! Their bodies were shorter and thicker - but I do think the idea that Neanderthals were "brutish" is no longer believed true.

[@springfieldbearpatrol2937]

@@cecileroy557 they were highly capable and survived over hundreds of thousands of years. I'm saying that humans would have an edge cognitively. Planning, networking, organizing, etc. While they cave painting humans were likely forming and army and planning their conquest.n

[@Cobalt1520]

""But think about Neanderthals living in extreme north climates - they need better vision and more robust bodies to survive. Perhaps more so than communication skills."" -> if that was true we would never be able to replace them, and they would thrive in numbers and prosper in larger communities. Instead they were replaced and extinct, after thriving for 500 000 years, declining when we started to arrive in their territories. I think it is pretty obvious what happened, but people seem to prefer a fairy tale of interbreeding and "oh they are still here within us!!!" than the simple truth, that's why this is being fed, because it sells much more books and seminars. It will end hopefully, when people find another fairy tale to ocupy their time, and someone will appear with "ummm you know.. that interbreeding thing.. it never really happened... we simply exterminated them".

[@JamesBarry-j7m]

Love you and your guest!!!!!

[@YaBoiDREX]

I wonder how much sign language was used among Neanderthal and Sapien populations. Probably a lot since we use hand signals a lot in our day to day lives today in the modern age.

[@hermask815]

i wonder if males and females of the other tribe were attractive and vice versa. or if you brought food home was more important.

[@YaBoiDREX]

@@hermask815 Food seems way more important in those days. Picking a partner based solely off attraction is a luxury only humans in the last 150 years have enjoyed. Where or not your partner can keep you safe and fed matters way more than looks so in a world without industrialization and modern science.

[@JMac-fj1rg]

The biggest difference between Neanderthals and humans was: menopause. Of the hundreds of Neanderthal skeletons we have, none of them are greater than 50 years old. Humans live till 70. That means we humans have a 3rd generation that is a repository for knowledge, and can assist the tribe with child rearing

[@dougsinthailand7176]

I haven’t read the original paper, but it seems very interesting. The question of Neanderthal speech finds clues in areas such as brain structure, apparent ability to articulate, evidence in culture and I think the FOX2 gene as well. It’s obvious that there is some major genetic difference happening among archaic individuals. I don’t think we’ll ever know for sure.

[@bobaldo2339]

Neanderthals had language sufficiently complex to pass on whatever complex skills they developed.

[@deplorablecovfefe9489]

Our ability to speak is our greatest asset. The ability to communicate each others thoughts exactly.

[@brulsmurf]

you mean the ability to bamboozle each other.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

Humans invented language so they could lie to each other. The ability to speak is not evidence of intelligence. Look at chatbots for proof. The oldest chat bot is Eliza from 1967, no intelligence whatsoever, but convinced users that it understood them. (Text to speech processors also require no intelligence.) Likewise, intelligence does not imply any ability to speak.

[@davefoc]

An argument against the idea that Neanderthals couldn't speak is that they interbred with humans. But if most of the interbreeding was involuntary then maybe speech was less important? Regardless interbreeding between sapiens and neanderthals is believed to have occurred in two different time periods between two different groups of Homo sapiens. Why wouldn't at least some of the sapiens speech methylation mechanism have transferred to at least some of the Neanderthals during one of those events? ETA: @tayzonday below mentioned parrots. That suggests that speech is possible with some very non human vocal mechanisms. So why not in Neanderthals with a vocal setup that was different than the one sapiens have? ETA: Could improving speech capability in sapiens have been part of the reason neanderthal/sapiens didn't interbreed in the last 10,000 years or so of Neanderthal existence?

[@TheOnlyStonemason]

Interbreeding did occur but so far we have only found Neanderthal males interbreeding with human women…perhaps it was all predatory.

[@chipthomas4169]

​@@TheOnlyStonemasonActually Ithink it's the other way, that Neanderthal men couldn't breed with Cro-Magnon women, but Cro-Magnon men mated with Neanderthal women .

[@chrismcaulay7805]

Im gonna correct both... We dont have evidence for the Neanderthal Y chromosome in homosapien populations. That does not mean they couldnt breed with homo sapien women. It just means they either couldnt, OR that Y chomosome was lost to time (likely due to it being inferior). We only have evidence of Male Humans, and Female Neanderthals (i believe from a few skeletons). However in the modern Genome even that is indirect due to the lack of Mitochondrial DNA from Neanderthals making it into modern humans. In other words, we are nearly 100% sure that homo sapiens and Neanderthals could mate and create viable offspring due to finding Neanderthal genes in our non-subsaharn populations. yet we have neither of the sex specific (or near sex specific) DNA for either sex of Neanderthals. Same goes for Denisovans as well...

[@kellydalstok8900]

@@chrismcaulay7805 Of how many Neanderthal individuals do we actually have enough DNA to establish whether it was male sapiens breeding with female Neanderthals, the other way around, or a mixture of both.

[@chrismcaulay7805]

@@kellydalstok8900 An embarrassingly low 3. But we dont have any evidence of the Neanderthal Y chomosome, or the Neanderthal mitochondrial DNA in modern humans (at least that is what the literature says). I would suspect both sets could breed based on the amount of Neanderthal DNA that is present in Modern populations, but we just dont have evidence for 1 of the directions.

[@ryanfranz6715]

It’s almost as though cultural accumulation, and anything that would’ve assisted in cultural accumulation such as the ability to speak in fast, fluent, complex sounds (and even singing), leading to easier spread of shared knowledge, is what was being selected for in modern humans. I.e. there’s a real sense in which culture is the organism that’s succeeding or failing and subject to darwinian pressures, and humans are merely the host (and selectively pressured in the direction of an ideal host).

[@christopherellis2663]

Hypothesis

[@ryanfranz6715]

In the realm of possibility from known evidence

[@bennyandersen742]

Yes, very interesting. It's very interesting how western culture is choosing a direction out of existence. Advanced but not reproductive with disastrous bith rates. . So what is going on there?

[@PeacefulRallyCar-pw3cs]

Complex language has a huge advantage in hunting. From planning and calling plays to mimicking animal noises. Furthermore, complex language is essential in establishing a social order. They cannot stop the chase to argue about who is in charge.

[@chrismcaulay7805]

Sure, but Neanderthals in some cases had more complex cultural development than Homo-sapiens did... Which means, at the very least, they had pretty solid communication.

[@jamesheartney9546]

Vocalization isn't the only possible format for sophisticated language. ASL users have a highly complex and sophisticated language which does not involve speech.

[@Ellifiknow]

The Neanderthals must have not watched Starship Troopers, where the teacher tells the students that violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived. They were overwhelmed by homo sapiens.

[@tanshihus1]

It's the ability to predict the future behavior of an possible opponent while also suffering from paranoia.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

Modern humans didn't make Neanderthals extinct. Some say that modern humans outbred other humans, but at the time human populations were so small that there was plenty of space and food and other resources.

[@tanshihus1]

@@davidwuhrer6704 Your first sentence is correct. If anyone out competed anyone else into extinction it was ancient humans. Modern peoples are only the descendants who resulted from the minor differences which made them the winners. There is no clear evidence in the fossils to support the idea that physical differences alone were the reason for their success. So, we continue to look for clues and argue over them.

[@davidwuhrer6704]

@@tanshihus1 I wouldn't say that modern humans are the winners. We didn't go extinct yet, that's all. And there was no competition á la Highlander where "there can be only one", different human species have coexisted for far longer than not. We are just late in following the others.

[@Matt-uv2yg]

He speaks at 1.25 speed

[@alexbowman7582]

I’ve seen in a KZbin video, although I don’t know if it’s true, that Neanderthals had flat skull bases whilst Sapiens had arched skull bases meaning more space to fit in complex vocal cords.

[@chrismcaulay7805]

I think we are assuming to much here. Its pretty clear based on the art and rituals, that we are quite sure came from Neanderthals, that they had to have complex vocal communication. Its also clear that we were so similar to Neatherthals that we could breed with them and have viable offspring... It possible our vocals were better, its also possible that they achieved an similar range of sounds through other means. I dont know, but to think of them as not vocally complex, yet achieving some things modern humans has not at the time, its perplexing to me because vocal communication is both faster and more accurate than any other form of communication.

[@JimCCorn]

Neanderthals also didn't use deodorant.

[@AdDewaard-hu3xk]

No one did.

[@r.ladaria135]

2:08 Why is a barefoot woman walking in the background?

[@xennialsavants8226]

😂😂😂

[@realmonger4754]

She's a Neanderthal

[@Juangalt]

You will regret asking that question.

[@r.ladaria135]

@@Juangalt 🤣🤣🤣

[@MrSirlulzalot]

Keep you from having to go on OF. 😂❤

[@Lea_Kaderova]

No, biggest diference between us and them was that our body structure allowed us to adapt on climate changes at the end of last ice age, while their didnt. Idea that they havent language is weird. They were able to hunt in groups, produced complex weapons like spears (even produced glue for better stick stone head to the spear), they produced art = they were able of highly abstract thinking. I cant imagine how they would be able to reach all of that without ability to communicate, share knowledge and ideas and transpose them on another members of their clans.

[@jimmcfarland9318]

How about looking at the genomes of people who communicate with a lot of tongue clicks and other non-laryngeal articulations? Compare the genomes of those who speak in gutteral languages, as opposed to those who don't. If we can't discern differences in our own time, then perhaps the Neanderthals had a greater language capacity than modern humans? Have we ever found the larynx or tongue of a Neanderthal? Have we modelled the resonance chambers that help produce sounds?

[@fsilber330]

The Bushmen separated from other Africans 100,000 years ago -- before the ancestors of Europeans separated. So we can assume that language as sophisticated as that of the Bushmen developed _WELL_OVER_ 100,000 years ago.

[@reynardus1359]

Based on what evidence?

[@fsilber330]

@@reynardus1359Based on it being more likely that language as sophisticated as today's Bushmen speak developed over 100,000 years before the split, than that language got enhanced independently in two distinct strains of people (Bushmen and everybody else) _after_ that split.

[@reynardus1359]

@@fsilber330 "more likely"? That's your evidence? All languages develop over time but you have no idea what that language was even a few hundred years back.

[@fsilber330]

@@reynardus1359 Languages change, but the kind of language we speak today is no more sophisticated (from a hominem evolution point of view) than it was 500 years ago. Nor are chimp noises likely any more sophisticated than they were 500 years ago. Major changes in the ability to use language (as distinct for the specific language spoken) rarely change. It would be even less likely for a change in the ability to use language to occur in TWO hominem populations independently. Since Bushmen's ability to use language is comparable to that of all other humans, it is likely that this ability to use language (not the specific language) developed before the split.

[@reynardus1359]

@@fsilber330 I do not disagree wth anything you said but I don't see how it helps your point. Seems to me that using DNA is a much better method.

[@JorgeGarcia-lw7vc]

If true, this doesn't nec imply that Neanderthals didn't have language, even complex language like ours. A language like Abkhaz has dozens and dozens of consonants, with only two vowels, while other languages use clicks of various sorts. All those help convey meaning. So maybe Neanderthals spoke a language, just sounding more like Abkhaz or Khoisan speakers!

[@odderlendsolvang3790]

or they could sign

[@jjhantsch8647]

Is it possible that the Toba event (74,000 YA) caused a survival advantage for those modern humans with language?

[@dbmail545]

I think it is more likely that better language facility made the destruction of other groups and the taking of their resources easier. Something happened to make one group much more successful than the others. No technology seems unique among the surviving groups so a biological advantage is suspected. Language or perhaps asymptomatic carriers of a pathogen that decimates the other groups as seems to have happened in Africa where the spread of malaria carrying mosquitoes seems to have facilitated the spread of resistant groups at the expense of less resistant groups.

[@jjhantsch8647]

@@dbmail545 Toba was the largest volcanic eruption modern humans have witnessed. Its nuclear winter may have reduced the human population to just a few thousand breeding pairs.

[@zero11010]

I spent the entire video trying to figure out what his tongue is doing to give him that very specific speech impediment with some sounds but not other very similar sounds. Definitely going to have to watch this a second time and try to tune out the speech impediment.

[@Woodman-Spare-that-tree]

Ironic - since he is talking about languages and he can’t even pronounce his own language.

[@Lech_Robakiewicz]

No. I do not agree. It is an at least 100 years old problem and about 60 years ago it was already solved. Neanderthals had definitely ability of speaking. Period.

[@hellboy7424]

The language is adaptable. Furthermore, not all languages ​​make all ranges of sounds equally (there are languages without a some kinds or differentes sounds) or directly with the speech apparatus and that does not make them any less complex. There are languages ​​with different types of clicks, for example. Or with whistles. In summary: the language of the Neanderthals could be as complex (saving cultural distances) as that of Homo Sapiens. There are many complex abstract cultural examples within the Neanderthal world. Greetings from Spain.

[@rajeshji2811]

Interesting analysis. Can you please invite Dr. Nilesh Oak. He has a take which might be in line with David Reich.

[@wingtip7149]

Stellar breakdown for lay person like me to understand significance of research he's sharing. He is gifted.

[@sharonhoerr6523]

'Gotta love how some folks talk about interbreeding, when rape, which was the most likely, does not require language.😒

[@j-rocgood7680]

Rape is certainly possible. However from what I understand Europeans have about 3-4% Neanderthal ancestry. While Papuans have even higher. This is quite substantial and implies a major and prolonged interbreeding event. Probably more than one. I’ve read the high proportion makes rape far less likely. Which implies that Humans and Neanderthals must have been able to communicate effectively and in some cases even raise children together.

[@richardthompson6366]

Most likely the concept of rape had not been established during the time of Neanderthals.

[@infostudy101]

If I was in a lecture with this guy I am sure he could pack in information in 30 mins that others would do in a full hour. If he had a 5-min break in his lectures in the middle it would be great.

[@fatelamore]

David, the brains of the Neanderthalers were LARGER than ours.

[@davidweber5833]

You can’t always go by that. Computers in the 20th century were larger than ours. It’s all in the “wiring.”

[@PaulVinonaama]

so what?

[@Eriugena8]

this, to me, was the coolest part of a sweet talkie talk.

[@kilipaki87oritahiti]

Well as someone who has Denisovan genome, not Neanderthal, language is more than words and sentences. Take our pets, they don’t speak nor do they understand our human language, but they do understand body language and the tone of our voice. Also facial expressions. Same can be said about those who can’t hear, or speak. Sign language for example? We’ve always managed to communicate even if we didn’t speak the same language or had a lingua franca. How would our ancient human cousins be any exception? If Neanderthals was so dumb, then it’s a huge paradox and irony then that we humans who pride ourselves of being the smartest species on earth, has Neanderthal and Denisovan DNA.

[@reynardus1359]

So "those changes happened in the last half a million or several hundred thousand years". In what species if not Neanderthals or Denisovans?

[@Nathan-vt1jz]

My view is that we are trying to differentiate various groups/races of humans as different species with these discussions. We are the mixed breeding of different human groups including ‘Neanderthals’ (particularly for European decent). The less isolated humanity became the more homogeneous our characteristics. Similar to how we have different dog breeds, but they are all still dogs. A golden retriever is not a different species from a mastiff, it’s just that the more isolated or selectively bred the more distinct the characteristics.

[@christopherellis2663]

Well, they didn't survive and improve their technology and make tools and clothing and fire by mute handsigns. It's a totally useless question

[@darrinwebber4077]

While I fully believe that Neanderthals and Denisovans had highly developed communications. I cannot say if all the communications were verbal. Their ability to communicate may have had a lot of nonverbal physical queing such as facial expression, and hand signalling. A lion or bear can very accurately communicate that a kill belongs to it and warn off other predators or scavengers that might try to snatch the kill. Both by vocalizing a stern growl... But also with aggressive body language.

[@douginorlando6260]

Here’s my take on evolution of speech. Not just more articulation with more distinct phonemes, a thought process that develops more around language and less around spatial relationships, and less around simple moral sensitivities. Lines of reasoning can sound logical based on meanings and associations that words bring to mind. The whole legal system is based on words with only a nod to moral sensitivities. The legal system has evolved via prior interpretation of words and phrases into a detailed map of subtle differences that go beyond common usage. The legal profession becomes a game where reality only matters in so far as it affects perception, and perception is driven by language. Evidence for language driving the thought process is when half way through describing a problem to someone, you suddenly realize the answer … the act of verbally explaining the problem makes the solution obvious. On the other hand, lines of reasoning can be founded on spatial awareness which gives a different intuitive feel that guides making sense. This approach is a useful extrapolation of innate awareness of surroundings and proximity linked to security,protection, belonging, hunting. It becomes a powerful framework to science, math, quantitative relationships. For example, Gaussian surfaces with enclosed volumes are the foundation of the first law of Thermodynamics and also leads to Maxwells’s famous equations that explain electricity, magnetism and radiation. Verbal skills are not conducive to math … try telling someone an equation and going through the solution of a problem that requires a set of equations (it’s very difficult to follow because written equations are very spatial on paper and many variables & constants must be meticulously taken together in context without error. The Sumerians had a sophisticated written system for math including a written numbering system tied to astronomy and accounting. Also for plots of land including calculating area using summation of squares, rectangles, triangles,trapezoids, and then verifying the area by calculating the summation of geometric shapes but with the map turned 90 degrees. One more consideration … written language and spoken language invoke similar but different thought processes, even on the same subject matter.

[@maranatha256]

Language is the passport of communication that allows for knowledge transfer. What about a faster mode, like telepathy? Would a similar epigenetic change within the brain cause another leap forward?

[@TheRealLaughingGravy]

I though the biggest difference was we don't have a chip on our shoulder about our ability to understand insurance.

[@sharonhoerr6523]

Even chimps, elephants and orcas have language. We just don't understand much, if any, of it yet.

[@michaeldavis3819]

They have ways of communicating things; that's not the same as a language that is used to communicate complex abstract concepts. My chickens have different clucks and shrieks that can mean "I just laid an egg!" or "Danger, hide!" or "There's food here!" or "Go away or I'll fight you!" That's not the same thing as communicating "I just spotted a chickenhawk to the North," versus "I need my water supply cleaned and replenished to avoid botulism, please." My dogs have grunts and barks and whines that can communicate things like, "Watch out! Stranger!" or, "Play tug with me!" or "Let me out, I need to use the restroom!" or, "Ouch!" That's also not the same as being able to say, "My left ankle is hurt; I need a pain killer tonight and a veterinary consultation tomorrow at 6:00." or "I'm worried about what the inflationary economy is going to do to the process of manufacturing my food." The difference is that animals seldom communicate anything beyond base biological urges and simple emotions. I respect animals and love them; and they often surprise me, but I have yet to see them spring very far beyond crude basic communication (although Koko was shockingly complex and speaks to the capacity of some primates if they have intense amounts of resources invested and dogs can learn many simple verbal commands). It's just not in the same category as human language.

[@JohnVKaravitis]

They do NOT have "language." They have call signs.

[@maiaallman4635]

I'm just throwing this out there: there are some humans today (some autistic) that prefer communication with the visual centres. Reading, writing (or typing). Not going through the audio part of the brain.

[@odderlendsolvang3790]

i mean gorillas cant teach sign language.

[@odderlendsolvang3790]

can*

[@calasangel]

I like how he voice boxes human speech without the diaphragm, tongue, lips, and teeth.

[@anonmouse956]

Serious question, is that how Denisovans is pronounced?

[@alexbowman7582]

Humans are usually upwardly mobile, that is they tend to have complex societies which are constantly improving and they often form widespread trade and social networks, they also have many children despite the conditions. Neanderthals meanwhile, may have been content in a subsistence existence, living similarly for millennia, happy to just exist and having less children in difficult times. Eventually Sapiens would have just elbowed them out. Surviving Neanderthals presumably isolated and living in small groups would have suffered from eventual inbreeding and slowly died out.

[@Woodman-Spare-that-tree]

None of that is true! Humans in Africa never traded until Europeans discovered them, and many humans have zero children or only one child. Also Neanderthals did NOT die out through inbreeding, they died out because they bred with Europeans.

[@normanwilder4935]

Why do most language researchers have a lisp?

[@bartholomewtott3812]

Well, he isn't a language researcher.

[@normanwilder4935]

@@bartholomewtott3812 But he has a bad lisp

[@bartholomewtott3812]

@@normanwilder4935 must be his dna

[@lanierosenberg]

Circa 3:53, "seems possibly reasonable" - best hedge ever!

[@untitled6391]

60% of the time, it works every time

[@Alex_Plante]

Could it be that Cro Magnon lived in larger tribes than Neanderthals or Denisovans, and for that reason needed to talk more?

[@Eben948]

Why did he keep emphasizing how weird this was? Seems perfectly sensible to me. Great guest btw, I like this guy.

[@brutefo]

It was believed methylation patterns were very fragile and didn't survive for 1000s of years

[@brawlpups3517]

Great content

[@chetisanhart3457]

Whales, chimps, and dogs communicate. They didn't need several words to say green. 'Pretty sure that words like sage, seafoam, and chartreuse weren't needed in their daily life. Sailors have been breeding with women who spoke no common language since long ago.

[@ArthurvanH0udt]

Doesn't DNAm signature also have a half life like normal DNA? I mean normal DNA has a 1/2 life of about 521 years. So how are we able to read patterns from this if it's more tha 100 1/2 lives ago?

[@freddyrodriguez4732]

previously, anthropologists would look at the hyoid bone to infer vocalization in hominids

[@saraandstuartshannon2160]

I have recently been to Neanderthal museum, and it’s quite obvious that there’s no evidence that they either had or didn’t have vocal cords. So, nobody can tell for sure. When I studied history of medicine, we did learn that Neanderthal people were performing ancient head operation called trephination. They made cut out piece of the skull in circle to relieve pressure. Some didn’t survive it, but many did as scientists find regrowth on the skull bone, which means that a person lived after such procedure. I find it hard to believe that a race of humans who didn’t have vocal cords and couldn’t communicate were able to perform such surgery. To me, suggesting that Neanderthal people couldn’t talk is another desperate attempt to suggest that we actually come from Neanderthal people who were nothing else than evolved monkeys.

[@julesgosnell9791]

I'm very doubtful about your claim of Neaderthal trepanning - Neolithic, yes, Neanderthal,,, I don't think I have ever seen it mentioned. If you could post a link to any evidence, I'd be very interested in seeing it - thanks...

[@oglordbrandon]

I wonder what would happen if you were able to give these changes to a chimpanzee. Would it just change the larangeal tract so they could make different sounds? Or would is there a cognitive element that would give them a Neanderthal level of speech.

[@muzwell]

I'm confused about the timeline. At the start of this clip he talks about a "qualitative change" that happened in language 50 to 100k years ago. At the end of the clip he says the change in methylation happened 500k years ago - but they are linked? Can anyone clarify?

[@user-yt3xd2jl6d]

The Methylation change occurred sometime between 500 thousand to 200 thousand years ago, this implies the ability to organize or speak correctly, but does not necessarily imply that we have language in its modern form, but 100 thousand or 50 thousand years ago a cultural revolution occurred in Homo Sapiens, language and symbolic language emerged, this cultural, linguistic and cognitive revolution, made Homo Sapiens populate all of Eurasia, and displace the Neanderthals & Denisovans.

[@user-yt3xd2jl6d]

In simpler words, first came the "ability to develop language in its modern form" and then came modern language.

[@muzwell]

@@user-yt3xd2jl6d thanks for the clarification

[@GaryM67-71]

Bear in mind he's just literally making those dates up, with zero evidence.

[@domca4617]

@GaryM67-71 Look who's talking lol

[@alastairbrewster4274]

This questions keeps being raised and then “ answered “. My hunch based on everything that has already been discovered such as art etc is that they can talk and they did talk. In a few weeks new evidence will prove this then something else will disprove it. It seems a very cyclical debate . But what living creature produces art and buries their dead that doesn’t have communication?

[@Mdebacle]

Our biggest difference with Neanderthals was that their DNA was 15-16ths human and 1-16th chimpanzee, as was Denisovan.

[@karldavis7392]

Did anybody else notice a barefooted woman walked by at 2:07?

[@Javier99999]

She spilled coffee on her shoes had to get a new pair of socks from the car

[@andrewbreding593]

Epigenetics: beyond genetics. Tell me gene sequencing was a letdown without telling me it was a letdown. 1. That's the number of major diseases caused by a single set of genes malfunctioning. The rest are epigenetic af

[@joelt2002]

Interestingly the modern human's brain shrunk in size over the last several hundred thousand years. So when he says that both gropus have similar brain size, I wonder what he is referring to.

[@stephenpelletier8947]

Very interesting. Possibly related to the onset of compulsive memetic speech in humans, which enabled rapid cultural evolution. Homo Sapiens is blessed (or cursed) by the compulsion to share learnings both trivial (gossip) and profound (ideas).

[@redswingline262]

Long way around to say what... Homo sapiens can enunciate and have more sophisticated nuanced speech? But if, as the title suggests, that is the biggest difference, I would think a baseline daily caloric requirement of7500 v 2500 is more significant, maybe even disease resistance.

[@theshadowoftruth7561]

God forbid the thought that Neanderthals might have had both vocal and hand signals and gestures to communicate complex ideas.

[@johnmc67]

As a hay fevered, brow ridged, red headed human, please be respectful of my Neanderthal ancestors.

[@giovannicaproni6489]

Their language, if any, was perhaps more rudimentary, and lacked the richness of homo sapien language. It is this richness of language that has allowed us sapiens to progress culturally and technologically, something that neanderthals seemed to lack. For example, for 200,000 years or more, there was very little change in their tool technology, whereas the tool technology of sapiens from, say, 50,000 to 20,000 years ago is striking. Maybe it was a combination of more "primitive" language and a difference in brain "wiring" that contributed to this difference.

[@WORKERS.DREADNOUGHT]

The main characteristic of Neanderthals (I suggest)n is that they - both gender - were absolutely stonked to the eyeballs with testosterone. How this affected their behaviour we can only guess.

[@johnmaxwell3165]

Mad!!

[@anonymoususer6037]

Isn't this Liberman's old claim from the late seventies or early eighties?

[@chaosopher23]

Neanderthals had textiles and art. Tools and weapons. Fire. Music likely. You don't get all of this cool stuff if you can't communicate effectively. Also, early humans and Neanderthals rather fancied each other, and their genetics still runs in our genes today. I can see it in some of my neighbors! For it to be here so long, we had to also find each other rather likable, as well. Neanderthals and humans spoke eloquently well enough to have plenty of babies and families and ... eventually, modern humans now have lots of other hominid species' genetics buried within. Modern humans are so damn successful because we eat anything and pounce anyone we find cute enough. Often.

[@1TakoyakiStore]

Sounds similar to the difference between Pantherinae and Felinae.

[@MarkPierro]

Errr so what do the changes mean in terms of speaking?

[@tanshihus1]

Oddly... it's about the birth of politics. Telling the truth only requires a grunt and a sigh. Telling an engaging story which can get you a free round at the bar is priceless.

[@liammcooper]

bro listed off all the info like it was right in front of him

[@JohnVKaravitis]

How did the Neans and us end up knocking boots? Was it rape?

[@jeffdunmyer6584]

I communicate with the two cats who Iive here quite well. Their language has less to do with vocal signals , but certainly doesn't make them less successful.

[@RogerMance]

Speaking of weird... who's this guy?

[@DanBeech-ht7sw]

A very highly respected geneticist

[@phatmeow7764]

playing team sports i was above average height/build and was unfairly labelled "neanderthal" how dare they! (greta thunberg style)

[@Drbob369]

What about orphan genes????

[@georgematthews2877]

They didn't have politics as we unfortunately know them!!

[@paulcarlisle7892]

The biggest difference between us was that the Neanderthals didn't have dogs, we did.....

[@masterbulgokov]

I'm going to try to use "methylated" in a sentence today.

[@savagecub]

Biggest difference……..we’re not afraid of vacuum cleaners ! Although the males of our species aren’t very adept at working them !

[@johnthomasriley2741]

Neanderthal s we’re great team hunters. Team hunters must make a great many sounds to organize the hunt. Many were animal mimics. I would bet they could tell great stories in these sounds. 🎉

[@beeasy9927]

Terrence McKenna said something similar

[@maxdondada]

This was an informative discussion. I worry however that we spend so much time on neanderthals and so little on early humans pre and post migration in Africa.

[@Knucklehead4400]

we spend time on what interests us, if you are interested , do some research

[@prestonforayter2584]

Neanderthals went into heat while the 2 brained humans fell in love.

[@lkrnpk]

Erling Haaland should be tested, seems like he could have some Neanderthal DNA

[@lucev7497]

Complex concepts need to be explained slowly, that was a little fast

[@nanopug]

So,, wats weird?

[@iga279]

a very interesting talk; I just wish I could understand 10% of what he is talking about.

[@jimmyjam6197]

we alive

[@Wizardess]

How much of the human genome seems to be from viruses and bacteria that found their way into the human genome? {^_^}