Our Top 5 Turnoffs in Games - Gencon 2022

[@monksgamingchannel9332]

The addition of Mike to the show over the past years has really elevated the channel. He's a true gem in my mind :)

[@metalblizzard6024]

Agreed... as a solo gamer I love him

[@KevinJennissen]

Love Mike too! Zee is my fav, though.

[@TheRatedOniChannel]

I love Mike's inclusion, mainly because with him, they seem so much more... relaxed I will say, because they all seem confident in teasing each other, make more jokes, they are more relaxed in their interactions and, let's be honest, when we are with our good friends we act like that.

[@Borengar629]

Outrageous

[@Rad1oAct1veman]

This might be the best audio quality you guys have ever had for a live show. Great job!

[@danteshydratshirt2360]

Mike and Zee are always worth watching

[@BigDaddyCola]

Agreed. They are easily the most entertaining of the cast.

[@benhoff901]

"Zip lining through a forest canopy or some off track betting den trying to put $20 down on Chonky Donkey to win in the 5th." Made me burst out laughing

[@CosmicTavern]

One of the best quotes the dice tower ever had. Glorious.

[@insanegammer109]

29:45 for lazy people

[@sdpam3463]

😂😂😂😂

[@jonathanklabunde6639]

And such a genuine laugh after about 'I don't know what know that is..."

[@dansimmons2095]

Mike Delisio is the best board game comedian i ever seen.

[@markusbiewer2756]

Great list, I agree with all of you! My biggest turn off has not been mentioned: Huge, overproduced games on KS with 10 KS-exclusive expansions, useless deluxe tokens and counters, KS-exclusive 10 card promo pack and useless miniatures that hide the fact that the game is not that good that go for $300. With VAT and shipping you're paying $400. Ridiculous.

[@dancondonjones]

Wendy was absolutely right about IP games. They can be good (like Dune Imperium) but my immediate thought with IP games is that they started life as a business deal rather than as a designer’s idea for a great game. It could still turn out to be good, but it’s not as good a start.

[@pallenaama]

I'd add incomplete rules. It's so frustrating when you've read the rules a couple of times. Then you invite friends over to play your new game. You teach the game, start playing and something comes up that isn't answered in the rulebook. On to bgg you go, hoping that someone has already found the answer you're looking for. Eventually the game gets couple of pages of faq and errata. Playtest your games with groups that are not familiar with your game. Get these questions answered and errors corrected before you print the rulebook and include them there.

[@NATOnova]

great list and especially agree with Mike's pick of memory as a main mechanism. There's so many games that hide information even though the info was made public. I think if information was made public it should almost always be kept public and not secret

[@markvanderwerf8592]

Depends. Trick taking card games are a classic example where this is not done. Main reason being that it slows down play immensely if played tricks were open and players start consulting them to see if card X is still in play. Either you don't care about this or you do some (relatively simple) card counting to keep track. The thing is when information is hidden the players that want to use that information have to keep it in active memory and thus play much faster if they want to use the information. In general I agree, public information should not be hidden. But if the information is difficult to show or gameplay shows down too much by it being open hidden is better, even if it introduces a memory element. Examples are cards in hand players have drafted from a public pool. Keeping those open for everyone is an option (just put the cards on the table) but if your hand also has secret information it becomes a hassle to keep some stuff open and some stuff closed, better all closed then. Think Ticket To Ride, card counting is definitely a thing there but because some cards are secret just keeping them all hidden plays out easier.

[@patcon314]

My idea is that information should be completely open if it could be tracked, either by memory or by taking notes. For those who say that open info slows down play, think about how much slower it would become if players decided to write notes about every card played, every coin earned or spent, etc. Hidden information should have a purpose, like "how much of your X coins are you bidding this time?" or "how many apples did you have in your hand?"

[@markvanderwerf8592]

@@patcon314 the thing is, if information is open players will consult it and drag down play. The fact taking notes would take longer is irrelevant as people don't do that, if players want that they will just play open. But i can understand lots of players want hidden because they want the game to flow faster, they can't be bothered to overanalyze situations and prefer other players play fast too. And some stuff is just physically difficult to play open well. Especially as there can be information that was not open to everyone (cards i passed you in a draft for example) or open information mixed with closed that can give away things. For example you have games where you draft cards open but also get them hidden. But they might have an opportunity to trade cards for others as well. The moment you play with the publicly known cards open you have an issue when a player wants to trade, they have to hide their hand from that point then anyways.

[@mikotagayuna8494]

Having certain types of information in games public also promotes kingmaking and leader bashing. Also, if people beforehand know that there is very little chance for them to change a game's outcome, they would rage quit.

[@danacoleman4007]

Thank you Tom for your number three. I heartily agree. I often wonder how many people really and truly find those games appealing. I think the real problem is, a lot of people would otherwise be too embarrassed to say " let's play a board game" to other adults. It's an unfortunate problem.

[@ambiej123]

I think its for teens and college students who want to show how adult they are by doing something edgy.

[@danacoleman4007]

@@ambiej123 I'm sure that's certainly part of it

[@gamera2351]

Its like Mike's list is nothing but "Yes! Thank you! Preach!!!" over and over and the rest are a big mix of "Yeah i guess" or "What? No wrong." Thank you Mike for bringing a good opinion to the gang. 😁

[@twoquestionmarks]

1) Components, that once punched, do not fit back in the box. 2) Lid that doesnt shut 3) Components that do not stay in place once the box is rotated resulting in organizing before set-up. 4) Vague instructions. 5) Miniatures just to have miniatures.

[@highbrowloubrew]

"You're wrong, have you ever played this?!" "No because it's a turn off!" Poor Wendy and Chris getting railed on for doing the right thing. I'm with y'all on a lot of your picks!!!

[@bricelory9534]

I totally understand and agree...and I have to say, Marvel is a turn-off for me, as one specifically over-saturated IP. It doesn't mean I think Marvel = bad or they're bad games, I am just far less interested in a game that is Marvel themed, personally.

[@highbrowloubrew]

@@bricelory9534 I totally get it and I'm the same way, too! Another thing is, IP games haven't been as strong as they have been in the last few years so that can also be a hurdle for some folks.

[@bricelory9534]

@@highbrowloubrew that's very true.... When you're used to Hasbro quality IP games, it's a big hurdle

[@thankukorea]

Saw this live and honestly it was so much more fun in person. You can feel the fun :)

[@bonnycrew3394]

YES, this was so good! Thanks for also sharing with those of us who couldn't make it to the live show 🙂

[@patricksullivan6988]

Popular IP is also a turn-off for me. I come in with the assumption that money/effort was put into getting the IP that should have been spent on the game. There are plenty of games that I love that use popular IP, but I start from a position of suspicion.

[@peterpan444]

Amen to that!

[@markusbiewer2756]

Agreed! I don't get why they were all picking on Wendy for that one.

[@headphonic8]

Especially because popular IPs in videogames are horrific cashgrabs!

[@ZoeMcDash]

Hmmm, Red Cathedral 100% has dice mitigation - you have to be creative in how to utilize every dice roll. There are more options than what there initially appears to be. I’ve played 20x and never had a roll that couldn’t be productive in some way.

[@elizabethdoney6025]

Yeah, that was a bizarre claim. At least Wendy corrected her...

[@jameswoodard4304]

I don't get the problem everyone had with Wendy's #4. I think it was pretty straightforward. She *wasn't* saying she doesn't like IPs. She *wasn't* saying games of IPs are necessarily bad. She's just saying that IP-based games tend to not be as good, with obvious exceptions. She's not going to play a game just based on IP. You are going to have to explain why it's actually a good game first. There are a lot of bad IP-based games out there that only get purchased because of the IP. This list is mostly about when you look at a game at the first impressions stage, are there things about it that lower your expectations of liking it. That's what "turn offs" are. Look at Marvel-based games. Yes, there are several *really good* Marvel games, but there are even more cheap, thoughtless, money-grabs, that no one would buy without the license. This goes off of Tom's #5 as well. Everyone saying, "do you like LoTR?" "Do you like Marvel?" etc., are completely missing the point. She likes *good games* and the majority of IP-based stuff isn't as good as it should be. Though some are obviously great.

[@mudandbleach]

Yeah, agreed. I wish people listened to her explain herself instead of just trying to inject zingers into the conversation.

[@naegling]

I mean, the problem is that in the past many IP games were just cash grabs. Nowadays there are more games that does a good job with the IP, so Wendy's #4 sound kind of outdated. Also when asked she said "even IP's that i like" which is weird. I get it , i have trust issues with IP games, but if the IP is something i like i at least will get courious about wether the game is good or bad. The IP is just the theme anyway, It feels kind of arbitrary, so you are turn-off by lord of the rings but not by dracula since dracula is public domain?

[@JingleAllTheWhey]

That's exactly right about what "turn offs" are. Camilla coming in with "so your number 4 is 'assumptions', got it."...Yeah, that's what this whole list is about. Making assumptions based off of things before you've tried to play them.

[@jameswoodard4304]

One of mine (more of an "angry" than a "turnoff," to be fair) would be "Euros that waste awesome themes." Seriously, we got Tom pointing out the sheep thing and "trading in the Mediterranean", but nobody ever seems to care about Euro designers selecting historical places and/or periods with huge thematic potential only to then completely waste the "theme." The Euro may be good, but why use up a good theme on it? For instance, Renaissance Florence has sooo much thematic potential, but there have been like five completely theme-less Euros named some variation of "Florence." That basically removes the possibility of having an actually thematic game based on Renaissance Italy. You can essentially name any city or region of Europe and say the same thing. Or really any historical location/era. A lot of thematic territory has been carpet-bombed by the Euro designers to make games that could just as easily have been named "Spiel A-5." I mean, what if someone *actually* produced a thematic game that really felt like you were trading exotic goods in the Mediterranean surrounded by intrigue and adventure? Would anyone actually buy it? Nope. That market space is already nuked. Thanks a lot.

[@lastburning]

Thoughtful comment and I agree. I think On Mars wasted the Mars theme.

[@TeChNoWC7]

So what should these designers call their games and theme them on? Spreadsheet the game? It has to have a theme, even if it’s mechanisms centric. But still, you can have as many games as you want themed around Florence or whatever with a variation of thematic integration. I totally disagree with this comment. It’s one thing to say ‘I like the games I play to be more thematically integrated’ but to basically say you don’t want games other people love to exist or to deny them any theme so your heavy theme games don’t have some perceived competition is a bit ridiculous.

[@lizschmitt4264]

Wendy - I agree with your popular IP turnoff. To me it feels like jumping on the bandwagon and I do a silent eye roll, even if it’s an IP I enjoy🙄 convince me there is something underneath and I’m in

[@ramonosuke]

Kickstarter campaign games with exclusives that, not only are impossible to get if you didn’t back the game but without them, make the retail version feel stripped and lacking. CMON is one of the biggest offenders of this and very evident with their Zombicide games.

[@TheRatedOniChannel]

Or even worse, the exclusive character/card, but it ends up too OP and breaks the game.

[@Chris_IsBoard]

Protect Mike at all costs. His intro to his number 3 is one of the funniest things I've heard.

[@howhistorycouldhavehappene437]

I second that whole heartedly!

[@timothylundstrom6348]

I read this before it happened so my bar was set higher already. I’m still laughing about it.

[@Mentat1231]

The "Chonky Donkey" _killed_ Zee. Lol.

[@nshaw1299]

@@Mentat1231 'Chonky Donkey' is by far the best running gag of the month!

[@Michaelrsted]

Yes don’t listen to Wendy. She’s so salty and cringe. Love that Mike were like. Yeah what ever every time she tried to be funny by an insult… even the whole room were just silent.

[@bfletcher5740]

Semi co op can work. Auztrailia is a great example. Everyone is competing to win, but if the group does not collectively do well, then the game beats everyone. I wish more games were like this.

[@deterpinklage4406]

Completely agreed w/Mike's 3. My memory is horrible too, and has been my whole life. I'm stronger in other places, like guessing quickly or evaluating my opponents next moves via body language. I'm not great at thinking ahead 4 turns, either. For me, being presented more than a handful of considerations combined with bad memory usually results in analysis paralysis.

[@KabukiKid]

I'm with Mike on that one too... I dislike games where memory is the core of the game. Count me out.

[@waltercardcollector]

I agree with all of these! Here are my personal top 5 things that turn me off from a game: 5. Cards Against Humanity clones. 4. Kickstarter games with exclusives that aren't guaranteed to ever be rereleased. 3. Social deduction. (I enjoy playing games but I don't enjoy playing people; and I hate the feeling of realizing that someone has been playing me!) 2. Games that use still images from the movie/show they are based on instead of original art. 1. Miniatures being a selling point without having a cheaper option that leaves out the miniatures.

[@davidlewis5312]

on the axe chick's 3: me and my spouse had a game of Catan where we had a building turn, where we both got stuff on the map and between us, we had one resource card. And then 5 straight rounds of us rolling 7 (robber) happened... and it was just us passing that one card back and forth until FINALLY someone rolled a useful number.

[@JosephFlemming]

So Agreeing with Zee’s number 1. Im looking at you, Dominations, with building minis made of of cardboard so cheap one false move while assembling will destroy the tabs, but there is no room for them assembled in the box. I currently use an expansion box from some other game to keep them set up and it bothers me lol.

[@Inmate4251]

I always considered a "semi-co-op" game to be a game where there is one player who is playing against everyone else who are working together. So Fury of Dracula, Star Wars Imperial Assault (Campaign mode), Detective: City of angels (with the Chisel), Pandemic with the bio-terrorist role, are examples of semi-co-op games in my mind. I guess their definition is a bit different, like Diplomacy... we work together for now but eventually have to backstab in order to win.

[@robertdascoli949]

To add on to Zees number one complaint, please tell me how to store the game in your box after I punched out all the pieces. Fantasy Flight is the worst for this. They'll give you an entire box full of components and two bags to store it all in.

[@VaultBoy13]

Fantasy Flight games are packaged to protect the game during shipping. You can store these games however you want. If the storage in the boxes were tight, that might be an issue. But, these games tend to have a lot of extra room for custom solutions.

[@JorWat25]

Exactly, I love when games are very clear on how to pack it away. I recently picked up Dice Forge and it has a whole checklist of how to pack it, with many parts of the insert labeled. Quadropolis is another with a well-designed and lableled insert

[@cursivecurses]

Many years ago, I was on the phone discussing reviews and games for college classrooms with a rep for an unnamed company, and they said "Oh, college students, what about [game] After Dark?" and I said "Well, it's a Christian school," and they said "Oh, well how about [same game] Bible edition?"

[@patcon314]

I wish they would have examples of games that meet the criterion.

[@jari-pekkasuuronen2462]

This dude who`s ooooooooooooing in audience in every single occasion is by far the biggest turnoff of this video.

[@gingerscholar152]

for me, one of my biggest "turnoffs" are poorly designed inserts. Great Wall by Awaken Realms is a great example, since the insert is excellent, except there is no where to put the wall components. I also bought Ark Nova at Gen Con, and it even mentions in the rulebook that not all the enclosure pieces will fit in the insert and that you should probably bag a couple. Really?

[@Bonzoso21]

I agree with The Great Wall not fitting the walls without modification, but in defense of Ark Nova, the rulebook does say that the extra tokens that won't fit are more than what is needed for gameplay, so I think it's cool they used the extra punchboard real estate to provide spares rather than just having a blank punch or a Proof of Purchase or nothing.

[@nickbrown8892]

Annoying too are generally well designed inserts that were not designed to hold sleeved cards. GWT 2nd edition for example

[@DirtyApples88]

So, Fantasy Flight Games?

[@Ragnarok2kx]

@@DirtyApples88 Shout-out to the Trench™

[@markearsley6597]

For me, one would definitely be poor color choices for components. In video games there have been more color blind options recently and thats a great thing. Its like some games don't even think about people with color issues. I know you can solve everything as there are multiple types of color blindness. But as an example, I love catan but they could have had better options for color in the game and 5-6 player expansion. Like if someone picks brown, I immediately remove green from the game. Once those roads and settlements cover the board, I can't tell them apart and have to rely on others to tell me who is what. Red is just different enough for me to pick out. I know there are more color options you can buy from the site, but why are all the easier to tell apart colors not just in the game to start? When things blend too much its just an issue that I personally have.

[@cpnpmp94]

I played Sidereal Confluence with a color blind guy about a week ago. Thankfully he was a good sport about it because it was hard not to laugh when he held out two black cubes asking if anyone needed any green cubes. Lol

[@Jessfrogger88]

I get annoyed when people talk about memory being an "unfair" mechanism to use in games when a lot of people might be more skilled at memory than math and math is used in almost every game without anyone complaining about it. I'm also terrible at flicking things and having a steady hand but I don't think people whine about dexterity games that much. Memory is so seldom used suck it up and do badly :-P Tom is right on this one!

[@naegling]

like counting cards, i have heard of people that says it's cheat, but i don't get why it would be cheat to use your mind in a game

[@danacoleman4007]

@@naegling ask Vegas

[@dancondonjones]

@@danacoleman4007 even in Vegas, card counting isn’t cheating. It’s just playing well. So well that the casino is likely to ban you.

[@dancondonjones]

Agreed. I want nothing to do with memory games or flicking games (and I am crap at both), but I’d never claim it’s unfair.

[@AdamJorgensen]

Zee needs to audition for the next Predator movie. His laugh during Tom's semi co-op thing was spot on

[@koalabrownie]

At first thought it was unfortunate that Roy couldn't be on the panel but then was pleasantly surprised you recorded his entries in advance.

[@EpicGamingNight]

Some one has to run the show! So I got to do both! It was fun!

[@glennmartin6492]

If you want meaningful choices just wait for the new game "Candyland: Darkness Rising".

[@nothing3376]

So glad to see the voice-over from Roy. I like Roy and I think he does an amazing job behind the scenes.

[@howhistorycouldhavehappene437]

Awesome video! Y'all are great!

[@lastburning]

43:50 Saying "Uno" is just about declaring that you're about to win soon. Granted Uno doesn't have much choices but sometimes they're there for a mechanical reason. Like how in Mahjong you must declare out loud your pungs and chows. It's about communicating to your opponents what just happened in a clear, unambiguous way.

[@rjflippo]

Check… Mate

[@FreakinFred08]

My biggest turn off when watching a Dice Tower “Top Ten” is when an audience member is obnoxiously laughing after every comment.

[@Saturn2888]

The hieroglyphs one is interesting because I'm actively looking for games with them to play with my 4 year old. He can read, but he can't skim a bunch of cards quickly like I can. Hieroglyphs make it possible for him to skim as fast as me. My other kids will be in the same boat as they age up. In general, I like iconography with text, but that's not as accessible to kids.

[@Tampahop]

Wow, I started off with a list of two, but kept adding to it as I went. I do have a couple not mentioned though. I hate generic “canyon tray” boxes. It is lazy packaging. I also hate games that never fit back in the box once you have punched out everything and sorted them into bags.

[@kryptkeeperdoesgamespoorly5996]

Screen caps only ever worked for me in Star Trek Fleet Captain because that game was like a nostalgic love fest to the Star Trek series' we all grew up on. Every card would have me and my friend saying "remember that episode?" or even quoting a character in it.

[@mikeb2598]

Outrageous… ly funny! Hands down, the best top X video I have ever seen! Also, Roy nailed it with the intro to his first pick.

[@philippenachtergal6077]

27:40 Semi-coop makes sense for a role playing game, not for a board game. It can make sense for a board game if you play a championship and there is meta-scoring like: the winner gets 3 championship points and the other players get 1 but everyone gets 0 if the ship has sunk.

[@IronSalamander8]

I'm with Roy the most; I hate bland themes, games with very little or no interaction, and games that don't look very interesting. A few of the others work for me too, like semi-co-op and generic themes. Bad rule books drive me nuts, just like Mike! I also hate when the FAQ is longer than the rulebook.

[@TheRASDEL83]

I agree with Wendy... long games are just a chore at this point in my life 😂 Again I agree with Wendy... I "tend" to be hesitant when there is an IP... I do like IP games but at first glance I tend to doubt.... SPECIALLY because of Zees #3 "Screen Caps!" First time I totally disagree with Zee "Wafflepaffle in the Land of Likrahoot" would be an AMAZING name for a game 🙃 "The Gaston" 🤣🤣🤣 "Cool components get in the way"... would probably be in my list but like "Over produced games"... big box kickstarter messes of a game. And Zee´s #1 is why he is my spirit animal 🙌🙌🙌 Completely Agree!!!

[@larrye]

I agree with Wendy's #1 partially. Not specifically dudes on a map but her point about the randomness of attacking someone in some of these games. There's a very popular game where you can have 5 troops and go in and attack somebody else's 2 troops and just lose because they roll the 3 and you rolled a 0. Not fun.

[@dorsalfin22]

Mike taught me a new word today! ap·o·plec·tic ; overcome with anger; extremely indignant.

[@WhatUpRob]

I think Chris was correct before his four saying the group was leaning more towards to angry and not the topic of turnoffs. Some wiggle room there but whatever. As an example I’ll play a game if the back of the rule book is blank, I too think that is a silly waste of space but I’ll still play the game. Same example, the game has an blank back page of a rulebook but it’s a train game, that makes me not interested. Train/Western/Trading in the Mediterranean/Euro to be Euro Theme Co-ops Solo only Memory/Real time/Skirmish/Area Control mechanisms a short list

[@ProfArmitage218]

For Zee's #2: Sentinels of the Multiverse. The hero Guise has a card in his deck that requires you to throw your hands in the air and shout "Wooo!"

[@insanegammer109]

Two things I thought of that weren't mentioned in any of the lists: 1) Disposable game components. First game that comes to mind is Welcome To. If Railroad Ink can supply laminated player sheets at an affordable price point, so can they. Single use score pads aren't as bad but the base game should be laminated/reusable. If there is demand for it, companies can still sell pads of paper sheets for large groups/conventions. 2) Snap together components. Starfarers of Catan being a well known culprit. Any game pieces that need to snap together and come apart again for the game to function. Globetrotting is a recent example of a Kickstarter that I was immediately hesitant on because once those globe halves no longer lock together well, the game becomes worthless.

[@GusG_]

I much prefer paper than dry erase boards. BUT... Welcome to DOES have dry erase boards available and you can laminate them.

[@winklestiltskin]

#1 for me is easily bad rule books. When I constantly have to look on BGG to get clarifications & explanations of rules it is infuriating. Years ago, we decided to use Watch It Played or Jon Gets Games videos because they just do such a great job explaining rules. I won't even crack most rule books if there is a good how-to video. It's astounding to me how many rule books don't explain rules clearly or don't even explain how many parts of their game work at all.

[@RealCoolGuy]

IP is a great answer and the one I agree with the most. No idea why so many people argued against her... Also, in respect to games with weird rules, I have 3-words for you: Mad Magazine Game. One of my all-time favourites.

[@NewTrollVideos]

Iterations are NOT meant for a single person to purchase them all, but for the same "game" to reach different players. Instead of collecting them all, a person should just get the one that either they enjoy the most or clicks best with them on a personal level. Iterations are great!!!

[@KMReviews]

I agree, same with the “after dark” stuff they don’t like. It’s just about targeting different audiences that perhaps the other versions didn’t appeal to.

[@VaultBoy13]

@@KMReviews I don't mind a game like Cards Against Humanity, but the "after dark" versions of an existing game are terrible. They're typically party games that already allow for an "adult" sense of humor. The marketing of "after dark" is to reach a different audience. The problem is that to reach that market, they put in zero effort. All the "adult" humor feels forced. Any extra rules baggage is cludgy. It's very lazy design that's simply a cash grab to ride the coat tails of Cards Against Humanity.

[@jeandemers8588]

Rodney Smith is the best to explain game rules. Love him. Also love the Dice Tower.

[@chuckm1961]

Try putting the rule book in front of you next time you watch him. He basically repeats or slightly rephrases the rule book much of the time. I much prefer reading the rules myself, then watching a PlayThrough to solidify my understanding. To each their own!

[@oleksandrhorskyi8442]

@@chuckm1961 Well not really. He might repeat the rulebook, but the beauty is in the structuring: what goes when. I hate it when you start reading about some mechanism when you don't even know the damn card anatomy or whatever what means. Or annotations in the rule book that contain IMPORTANT rules. Or even more - rules that are spread across multiple components: some are in the actual rulebook, and some of the mechanisms explained somewhere in the scenario book or on that particular card or somewhere else. Sometimes it just drives me crazy. Rodney makes a perfect job structuring all that mess into a video. Of course, good rulebook leads to reapeating the same stuff in the video, sure. But that's only when rulebook is good..

[@bensgoogle]

Zee’s #4 made me laugh. “Yay, you created a world” lol

[@Bonzoso21]

We did as much playing D&D as 8 year olds. "Welcome to the magic realm of Druidaria, here's a map of the eastern continent of Nymwaer. You begin your adventure in a busy tavern in the capital city of Yserum." I just created a new world.

[@Dragonnox]

To add to the conversation about bad rule books, I just want to throw in there specifically bad SOLO rules. You have to read the whole rulebook for multiplayer and then read a list of exceptions. No! Put the exceptions in line with the main rules, or write a separate rulebook assuming the solo player hasn't read the multiplayer rules! I don't need to learn the rules and then UNLEARN the rules just to play solo. And its even worse when the solo mode is locked behind an expansion. To learn Trickerion solo I have to learn the base game multiplayer rules, then I have to learn the Dahlgard Academy multiplayer rules (which changes the base rules and adds more stuff), and THEN I still have to read a list of exceptions for solo. It's infuriating.

[@justdiceleague]

Nailed it with your #1, Roy!! The ONLY decision is when you pick a pawn...

[@mikaelhansson9613]

A turnoff for me is these Super Mega Deluxe Kickstarters out there. I just hate it when there's a great game, but if you don't get this and this and a more extras you get severe FOMO. A few examples lately is Last Light (sorry Roy, I know it's not your fault) and Bretwalda. I really wanted Last Light, but then the page keeps showing all these fantastic 3D stuff, so yeah I want those too! And we are often 5 players in our game group, so of course I want the 5-8 player expansion as well. Oh, and with the upgraded versions of course. Suddenly we are a lot above my budget. So I ended up not backing it at all. Same story with Bretwalda really. And Castles of Burgundy. Just make the Kickstarter in one version, and maybe a few extras or KS exclusives, don't make it ridiculous..

[@naegling]

I find annoying when the rules are like "you could play it this way, or this other way, i don't know, you decide". I'm ok if you offer me variants, but tell me what is the standard way to play it, the way the game were intended to be played.

[@EfrainRiveraJunior]

A turn-off for me is anything that has Marvel in it. I'm not saying that I hate Marvel; I'm just saying that it turns me off.

[@Nemspy]

Red Cathedral has mitigation, but more importantly, you can have multiple avenues toward scoring going at all times. If you can't get to wood this round, work toward something else.

[@CoreyMarinoGames]

Game isn't bad, I wouldn't have sought it out on my own as it does many things I don't like (theme/interaction/graphic design), but it isn't bad.

[@elizabethdoney6025]

Yeah, Camilla really had a bizarre example there. At least Wendy corrected her...

[@seniscram7958]

"Fpoon"... also classic. Good one Chris.

[@areallystupidguy630]

Screen caps are such a good one, they epitomize IP cash-ins as a concept

[@douglasdea637]

Agree wholeheartedly about bad rule books. About 25 years ago I used to play a game called Seekrieg, a miniatures game of warship combat. Fun game, but someone had to explain it to me. The rules were near indecipherable. I got into gaming back in the 1980s with Avalon Hill games and a couple other companies and some of those rule books were terrible. The games were too complicated and convoluted. Perhaps they were fun but I'll never know. Third Reich, Squad Leader, Freedom in the Galaxy... My friends and I still joke about my failure to understand Magic Realm, which, to this day, I don't think is my fault.

[@MrFun67]

A couple of mine are crappy (or no) inserts where I have to come up with storage solutions for the game components and games that take forever to set up and tear down. I don't want to spend 10+ minutes setting up and 10+ minutes putting things away.

[@KabukiKid]

A huge turn-off for me in games are when they have a "make a pitch" aspect to them... especially when that is the core of the game. Games that have you act out a job interview, or pitch a silly product incorporating various adjectives or something. I get that people like these, but I am definitely not one of them. Also, these games tend to include someone openly judging the performance(s) in the game, which forces a player to "pick their favorite." It's different when it is unknown who you are voting for, but definitely another thing I dislike is being forced to judge performances of known players.

[@Specialist0815]

Regarding Zee's No1: What about the dice tower in Wingspan? You have to at least divide it into 2 parts to figure it back into the box.

[@DrMcFly28]

41:18 While we're at wackiness, I always get annoyed when we play Meeple Circus and the otherwise rather enjoyable, lightly stressful dexterity game out of the blue switches into full "party game" mode. So not only are people suddenly forced to do "wacky" stuff, it also makes the game last 3-4x times longer compared to how long it would take if the last round played more like the previous two. I have nothing against party games, and if I wanted to play a party game, I'd play a party game. But please don't be "creative" with such genre mixes, no matter how thematically appropriate it may be or how integral it is to the creative vision. Or at least make such escapades optional, so people can choose between silly "performances" and a more consistent, shortened gameplay experience (without resorting to house rules).

[@jacobramirez5974]

Zee, the Everdell tree?! Really?! There were so many other component assembly choices you could've mentioned. Because I totally agree with that gripe. But, c'mon, the super simple Everdell tree that takes 10 seconds to assemble?

[@markstamp3937]

The issue I have with that tree is that the laminated card starts to come apart of you keep taking it apart. Also it is the prime example of Camilla's point about components getting in the way, it just doesn't work with a four player game

[@Bonzoso21]

I just left the tree displayed on top of my game shelves with other knick-knacks. I can use it if I'm playing at home with a low player count where it doesn't obstruct anyone's view, or not use if I have a higher player count or take the game to play somewhere else. I know barely anyone has The Great Wall by Awaken Realms, but that one was a much bigger offender with the cardboard walls. I eventually got them to fit in one of the boxes by following someone's BGG instructions to cut useless space off one of the inserts, but it was pretty annoying to have to do that.

[@rappscallion3238]

I agree with games that have no or very little player interaction. Give me bidding, auctions, card drafting or just anything that gives me interaction with other players otherwise It's like playing a solo game in a group. I remember at one time playing a game and realized no one at the table had said anything to each other for almost ten minutes. There is something very sad about that.

[@seniscram7958]

+1 for Mike on the real time mechanism. I won't play games with that mechanic.

[@ntmetroid]

Agreed. Ill keep real time to video games.

[@jahniedez6834]

This was extremely entertaining! Your anger makes me happy lol

[@rexology_bg]

The turn off for me that was not mentioned is a game that has public information that is trackable but would require me to write down the info or repeatedly look at other people's player board. Medici the Dice game is the one that comes to mind. I would rather that the info be hidden and have to track what has happened rather than calculating the correct move.

[@gozzywozzy485]

I agree with Wendy 110% re IP! As soon as I hear IP, I am convinced that it is first and foremost a cashcow, and the game comes in as secondary to that.

[@CoreyMarinoGames]

I was like that before. Old NES games still traumatized me I think. Marvel Legendary helped me get over this.

[@barbaramazzocca4605]

What does IP mean?

[@petercsm5769]

@@barbaramazzocca4605 Intellectual Property.

[@CoreyMarinoGames]

@@barbaramazzocca4605 Intellectual Property.

[@donnakeferlis1649]

Zee's number 2 pick made me think of that classic Carol Burnett sketch where they played Sorry!

[@deterpinklage4406]

lol I coughed up a lung when ~1:52 mins in, that yelping guy came back when Tom introduced Camilla. Sounds like if R2-D2 was a goat

[@EfrainRiveraJunior]

I understand Wendy's #4. Of course, there will be exceptions, but I get it.

[@ndjames02]

WENDY! I am 100% with you on IP gaming. If I wanted to experience that IP I would just go back to the movie/book/ect that created that world. Games to me need to be unique and create new worlds/meta verses for me to experience.

[@rectorsquid]

I rolled five 1s and a 2 in Eclipse and no rational amount of mitigation could have saved me; It was an immediate loss for me. Dice, even with mitigation, often suck and so dice games are a huge turnoff for me. My other turnoff is rule books that are written by idiots that never playtested the rule book with noobs reading the rules.

[@lizschmitt4264]

Turnoff - when I’m interested in buying a game and there is no Dice Tower review. Love and trust your opinions!

[@EfrainRiveraJunior]

13:47 - This was fantastic!

[@sealtyk]

I seem to have similar feelings to Roy. Interactions are where its at for me. Not at the table to complete the game or even win. I'm there to enjoy time with my friends.

[@Tzimisce25]

14:10 Basically Ian O'Toole art :P 19:50 I agree with Wendy. IP may let the the designers lazy. 26:45 There are a few SemiCoop games, that are good. But most of the games that say it are horrible as semicoop. 47:00 After the empire minis. The cubes are better in that game!

[@shaneannigans]

When a game includes solo rules as changes in a separate section so you have to constantly have to flip back and forth trying to figure it out-Grrrrrr!!! 🤬

[@danddjacko]

My number one would be games where it is down to a players decision who wins a round or who gets what rewards/resources

[@chrisingold4590]

I love semi-coop, probably my favourite element of many games!! Noted it was caveated a lot here and I noticed the team gave no actual examples? Archipelago, Auztralia, Nemesis, Dead of Winter or even the way upgrades have to be shared in On Mars etc, what counts as semicoop? Or the upcoming sequel to Shasn which is about as thematically accurate a semicoop as I can think of. Love the tension between needing to balance cooperation and competition and there’s a lot more subtle semi cooperation in some classic games than is immediately obvious.

[@blakekaveny]

They thing they hate about is when someone realizes they can't win so they make it so no one can. How is that fun

[@chrisingold4590]

@@blakekaveny I think my big turn-off would then be that player not the game. That's just the same as kingmaking when you're definitely going to lose which can happen in many purely competitive games. If that player can legitimately win by doing that then that's OK, otherwise it's just poor form.

[@blakekaveny]

@@chrisingold4590 Yes but if happens over and over again thats gonna make you not wanna play that game if you don't blame the game

[@blakekaveny]

@@chrisingold4590 They’ve talked about how they’ve had it happen over an over again and that’s what’s put them off from it.

[@chrisingold4590]

@@blakekaveny I guess that's the thing - I've never had that (i.e. I've never played with someone that just wants to make everyone else or someone else lose if they can't win). If a game puts someone in a situation where they obviously can't win with lots of playtime left in the game then that's a turn-off to me - I won't play some heavier euros that punish an early bad move for this reason. That's not an inherent issue with semi-coops though.

[@TylerAndToast]

Mike's #3 is spot on. Games with way too much info like magic or xwing etc are annoying to play too because I can't remember everything I'm supposed to keep track of.

[@Archanon79]

Agree with many of these, but the biggest one for me currently is app driven games

[@VillainCollector1]

No one mentioned cardboard tokens or other components that you need to pop out. Prime example are the new Carcassone expansions or a game that has a lot of cardboard components that need popped out. There is a good chance some of the tokens or components will be damaged trying to get them out.

[@dancondonjones]

Honestly I’m a little disappointed when I get a new game and the tokens have already been punched out.

[@seansteel328]

I'm enjoying the person who doesn't know how applause works

[@martinvitek5945]

I hate most games with cascading failure mechanism. You failed this time so we will give you penalty so you fail more miserably next time and get penalized even more.

[@spol]

that's definitely in my top 3. I will not play games that have that. It's just plain dumb. I would 100% rather play with games with crazy op catch up mechanisms

[@manonfire4jc]

I 100% agree on the IP"s. I too don't like it unless there is a good game there.

[@Panquernic]

14:00 LOL that was amazing

[@jorgenolsson692]

The biggest putoff for me is naming your game after a city. San Fransisco, Helsinki, Hamburg, New York City, Porto, St. Petersburg, Copenhagen, Istanbul, Ragusa, Paris, Lisboa, Venice, London (a good game!) and so on and so forth. Blergh.

[@nielsjensen6897]

My top 5 would be 1. Bad rules. If your rulebook is rubbish, you can have the biggest kickstarter campaign and most stretch goals in history. It’s all for nothing if the rules are bad. 2. Retro games. Games that are made in the 21st century but are deliberately made to look like it was made in the 1960’s. “It doesn’t need to look flashy to be good”. Why can’t it do both. GMT, I’m looking at you. 3. Bad production. No insert. Cheap quality cards, tokens and board. 4. Overly busy game boards. 5. Expansions that are released along with the base game. Let’s try the base game first, shall we? Honorable mention: When there’s a seperate rulebook for solo play and the setup says, set the game up as a normal two player game. NO! Show me how to set the solo game up! You can’t reference another rulebook in a rulebook. Or play the normal game but with these exceptions. No! Show me how to play. Infuriating.

[@g8kpr3000]

I agree with Tom on terrible rule books and I know exactly what game he was referencing at the end. I own it, and the bad rule book just turns me off pulling it out.

[@chrisarney8265]

Wendy's tastes in games are the complete polar opposite of mine. Her 5 could just about be a "5 appealing traits of a game" list for me.

[@tamasnemeth7659]

Exactly

[@TeChNoWC7]

So wait, would you want to play a game that has all these features in it? Because a long take that IP game with semi coop sounds like the worst possible game imaginable

[@TeChNoWC7]

I’d say for me it’s Roy, but it’s totally fine to have to people at different ends of the taste spectrum

[@revimfadli4666]

@@TeChNoWC7 only because such games tend to be cash grabs with lazy implementations of take that?

[@blakekaveny]

Long games are fine sometimes. But they only work if you’re engaged the whole time but some games are so long that it makes you board. Or like Tom has talked about with diplomacy it makes you mad and lasts 7 hours that ain’t fun