OW vs TF2 Learning Curves

[@Toofty]

Thanks for all your support and comments on this video, glad to see people are still enjoying it! A couple of things a lot of people have misunderstood: 0:03 - This is a joke/irony (I should probably keep my strange sense of humour to my streams) 0:34 - This is sarcasm (a surprising amount of people have a swoosh moment here)

[@thelastmeem8812]

TooftyTV did you forgot to add paladins' learning curve again

[@Clockster_]

wH3n iS dEalIng WiTH deMo C0ming t00fty? XD

[@Grey_Ramen_Hair]

Tf2 lower comp nah we got UNLCKABLES :D

[@TeemuH1]

you forgot game knowlage what can be huge part of the game like in tf2 if you knowing every item and when to use them and how to play against them can make huge diference in games like lol where you can learn 80% thru game theory ofc this isnt that big in fps games but most of the time if u know how like sniper sounds and you have shotgun you know you shouldnt try to fight him from long distance

[@firesniperbullet2]

your sticky spam DISGUST me!

[@theredspy6688]

I cant help but notice that he picked up a whole medium health kit... for one health

[@Toofty]

xD the way you worded this made me chuckle

[@theredspy6688]

think of the burning medics you could have saved

[@blackblood9095]

As a medic main, this part of the video physically hurt me inside.

[@Lordrockerkiller]

When was this?

[@michiru02]

Mr.Spaghetti 4:49

[@n_ear]

2k hrs of tf2 and I still dont know how to rocket jump well.

[@efgee9873]

insert a funny yet depressing meme here I feel you man... 5k+ and I'm still a noob at it

[@iamnobody7044]

insert a funny yet depressing meme here Haha! I haven't wven started learning to rocketjump. After thousands of hours I haven't freaking Touched solly.

[@lenny4039]

4k and i still use a jumpcrouch script to rocket jump

[@mrsoggo]

I have some where 5000+ rocket jumping was one of the first things i learned how to do

[@lunatic8173]

well i needed 0.1 hours to learn it

[@highjuice3446]

Tf2 is the only game where if you have under 1000 hours your a noob

[@martinxXsuto]

and above 1000 you have no life

[@murc9733]

I have 130. I feel like I’m shit. Only class I’m relatively good at is soldier and I can’t do any advanced jumps

[@highjuice3446]

1.5Life just gotta keep working at it

[@yourtags4876]

HighJuice 1300 Still shit at this game. Always got gank by the team. Maybe my team have FUCKING 5 SNIPER AND 3 SPY!!!

[@TheComicSans5]

I have over 1k hours in TF2 (I don't really play anymore) but when I did I still felt like a noob.

[@robertstegmann9260]

My favourite part about the thumbnail is that the zig-zag goes backward, implying as you get more skilled you ***TIME TRAVEL***

[@TheFoolishSamurai]

Nah, that's just TF2's odd balance changes.

[@Reragi]

once you master rocket jumping, you're suddenly at the pyromania update

[@rdm185]

*Dead ringer activates*

[@peguncz543]

Thats just a fair and balanced game mechanic, random skills

[@conezdomez9292]

I KNEW IT WAS REAL

[@RTGame]

Great informative video that I imagine is only receiving dislikes because some folks need a safe space from the mere mention of Overwatch. Love seeing content like this!

[@imasepan]

RTGame oh its the irish nigga hello

[@hexesmekhane]

I’m tho only like on this?

[@PowerfulAtom111]

Never expected you here. I’m late but eh

[@wolverdep4739]

Bruh

[@Tewfurt]

TRGame

[@oetluller]

Gamesense in TF2: Oh, we have 5 snipers. I should go one aswell

[@fenceunderscore7410]

Hey, you should change your name before i get my lawyers on you

[@ShinziiArt]

Lmao

[@dudecoomhard8594]

It not you are playing game you just so angry and lose your emotions

[@NotFine]

“It would be funny”

[@cewla3348]

gamesense in tf2: oh, we have 9 spies? how about some more C=

[@underscore.petrichoir546]

We dont have a curve here at TF2, we aren't women. We have a rock hard wall, made just for rock hard men.

[@vladimirpoutine1897]

:^)

[@lyt664]

_...says the guy with a double chin maining Pyro. You aren't rock hard. Get over yourself._

[@TheFoolishSamurai]

He said, as a W+M1 gibus pyro clears out a point.

[@aqwkingchampion13]

*Soldier who makes that claim immediately faceplants into said wall during a failed rocket jump* See men? This is exactly what I was talking about!

[@womanrespecter1]

Maximum virgin

[@9minty]

100 Hours: I am learning very well. 1000 Hours: What does "W" do?

[@luigiclone0286]

Nothing

[@БРАТ-р8к]

Explode

[@jakman8515]

for me it jumps i think and q is shoot and i think z makes you vault and makes you crawl and b makes you climb and f12 makes you slide and space,c,v, b is front back left right but thats from my memory so some of it is probably a little wrong

[@LowReso1ution]

@@jakman8515 wtf

[@elbowremovalservice]

Professional Rocket Jumpers: Well, you see....

[@itsdoublevee]

Man I remember my first round of tf2 I didn’t know how to switch classes I got told to go into console and unbind all

[@Sticklings]

rip

[@mightbejohn6443]

Same

[@БРАТ-р8к]

I once told one dude to alt+f4 to change classes, and he tried! What a gamer

[@silentplayer6656]

@@БРАТ-р8к alt f4 doesn't work with tf2

[@rundownpear2601]

Silentplayer66 yeah it does?

[@aloysius260500]

I went from junk to drunk.

[@gstv8453]

Sgt. Pepper are you a demo main?

[@tangerinepaint3643]

Aaay

[@heeehheeeh]

It took me way to long to realise what you meant. Oh my god

[@Deoster]

levelheee what does he mean?

[@heeehheeeh]

The Artists Desk From junkrat to demoman (since he is always drunk)

[@dogemaster9676]

tf2: you can hit people with a frying pan overwatch: you can’t hit people with a frying pan tf2 is better

[@icarokaue7334]

a golden frying pan

[@evangonzalez7732]

TF2: Has a black drunk Scottish man who is also a medieval knight and an explosives man. OW: Has neither a drunk Scottish black man, nor a medieval knight that is also an explosives expert. TF2 is better.

[@demoknight.]

And here I thought that the battle between OW and TF2 ended 2 years ago. Just look at the comments.....

[@lunatic8173]

TF2 will always be better

[@Thereisnogreatersword]

I think both have respective strengths, but one thing. Fuck matpat

[@Jdudec367]

LuNatic that's your opinion

[@fortnitejohnson1304]

Jayden C but it’s the correct opinion

[@Jdudec367]

cracksmoker98 there is no such thing as a right or wrong opinion my friend

[@Clockster_]

One of the reason I realized why TF2's movement skill ceiling is higher: Just look at soldier and pharah. If you are rocket jumping, you have to think about angle of rocket, timing, airstrafing, etc etc. But in overwatch, they made it into simple one-click Shift button. And WASD replaced that tricky air strafing. Much easier to learn, but less ways to use it. While TF2, jumping takes thousand of hours and still you have something more to learn.

[@Clockster_]

That's one of the reason I like TF2 than Overwatch. You make your own movement technique in TF2. But in Overwatch, they simply put movement technique in one button to execute. Anyways, that's my personal impression about TF2 and OW, and I love Overwatch too. So don't be mad, and let me know what you guys think :D

[@Nudgarrobot]

Ground movement is stupidly oversimplified as well. Look at demo at 1:00 and note how when he A+D strafes, he has to actually *SLOW HIS MOMENTUM AND THEN ACCELERATE THE OTHER WAY* Overwatch has instant/near instant ground movement startup which trivializes proper movement because a vegetable choking on his own spit can mash A+D as fast as his stubby cheeto fingers can move with no thought and get pretty decent results. Try that shit in TF2 and you're going to get STEAMROLLED

[@Deletedvirus404]

agreed. the amount of spamming in overwatch with movement is near maddening. strafing in that game is really overpowered.

[@logadog]

it was a shit comparison to compare solider and pharah just because they shoot the same dosent mean they the same. Lucio or doomfist would of been better to compare for movement

[@bastionunitb7388]

If you watch a phara in the overwatch league or a really highly skilled person playing her you'll see that phara can do a traditional rocket jump as well as the jump jets then you through in the concussion blast and she becomes a he'll of a lot more complex than people give it credit for

[@awyeagames]

TF2 is a hardcore FPS. Overwatch isn't. What you preffer, is up to you, but I think TF2 is more gratifying overtime. I'd love to see what people have to say about Overwatch 10 years from now.

[@domoallcaps]

i think after the year i've played it, It has just gotten so repetitive

[@gbsfranca2876]

fala doutor

[@awyeagames]

:D

[@williamt1267]

Yeah, overwatch is more moba-like and reliant more on different mechanics. Honestly, I don’t know why people compare tf2 with overwatch.

[@vt2356]

professor? vc por aqui?

[@damienw4958]

My learning curve is a flat line along the bottom!

[@cc12yt]

OMEGALUL

[@SrQuack-js6sn]

Oh god he's flatlined

[@jetstreamsam9580]

same

[@philiphockenbury6563]

I have found my people.

[@changeaccount6740]

Just like grandpa's

[@CaptainFisticuffs0]

i first installed tf2 in 2013. the end of 2015 is when i started taking the game seriously, and my skill began rapidly increasing. toward the end of 2016 is when i found your channel. and honestly, i think watching your videos has led me to becoming a demo main. just watching the little things you do in gameplay (like how far ahead of players to aim pills) has dramatically increased my ability overall. its kinda nuts, dude! so, thanks for being a cool tf2 veteran teacherguy, it really does help.

[@HammerGaming]

「Captain Fisticuffs」 #relatable

[@awyeagames]

Great video, but one thing that I think must be pointed out: aiming on TF2 is a bit harder, because the hitboxes better represent the characters on screen. Overwatch's hitboxes, even after many updates, are still larger than what you see on other multiplayer competitive games.

[@Bl_ss_m]

I mean in overwatch there are multiple ways you can completely negate damage or be almost impossible to hit. It would take a lot of practice for someone to hit a tracer who has 4 dodge abilities and to predict AD strafing that all the Hero's in ow have.

[@kitchenmaiden81]

Also, although I hate to say it, TF2's hit registration is rather bad to begin with, which makes it harder to use. It is seemingly consistent, though, so it can be learned.

[@Nudgarrobot]

Hitboxes really don't have much of a disparity-- Honestly, OW's are tighter in a lot of ways (Although this is wildly variable because Blizzard can't be self-consistent) And that's a bad thing. Combined with Overwatch's instant A-D strafing (read, instant movement startup on ground), these make characters unreasonably difficult to hit, not only because their animations are in no way indicative of their motion (Spamming A+D changes velocity faster than it changes animations so you moonwalk) but because they sacrifice balance for accurately mapping artistically distorted or extreme animations. Take Genji's double jump flip, or Lucio's normal jump stretch, for instance-- Both of these are animations done for aesthetic effect, but they end up having massive impact on game balance as they wildly distort the hitboxes. Speaking to Genji specifically, because he's hunched so far forward, when he A+D strafe spams he has one of the worst desyncs from movement to animation resulting in a wildly unpredictable head hitbox that VERY easily noregs even if you hit it Moving onto noreg, instant movement startup creates bigger serverside/clientside desyncs that can often result in dropped hit registry. When a character is moving so quickly and changing direction so erratically, netcode for prediction and rollback struggles more and can't deal with it so much Further, Overwatch has ABYSMALLY SLOW base walking speed alongside RIDICULOUSLY STRONG mobility options, alongside poor visual clarity and colour design (Forced red outline on all enemies. Same shade of red is used in the background and UI on several points of several maps. Same shade of red is used for shields, damage particles, among other things. Winston is a massive massive problem in this department because his lightning, bubble, outline, etc are all red, and essentially jam ability to properly discern other enemies due to poor kit/colour design. Don't get me started on Moira's Coalescence on the horrible visuals front.) creates a game of unreasonably disparate action vs passive play, and as an ESport, massively detracts from clarity or entertainment of viewer base-- Especially in Dive, it's often a complete mess to try to watch as a spectator because the teams so quickly divest themselves of any kind of clear line of control, making for fights that aren't impressive or seem to be won by ults alone, while picks during "passive" play are the only ones that people get hyped about, simply because during passive play there's a modicum of visual clarity. At 1:00, watch Demo's strafing. Note when he changes from A->D->A he slows and then regains momentum in the other direction. He doesn't immediately change directions. And yet demo, and any character in TF2, still feels responsive. Movement is still very important in order to succeed. The same goes for Dirty Bomb, Paladins, Quake, etc. Overwatch is the only one of these games with little to no ground movement startup and the game suffers immensely for it. Even if Overwatch's hitboxes as a total rule were bigger than TF2's, that doesn't matter in the end because TF2 has proper and natural movement startup that allows predictive and intuitive aiming, as well as is reflected properly by animation. Overwatch allows nothing of the sort, suffers from poorer noregging, predicting A+D is unreasonable and the animations are counterintuitive, and most all characters in Overwatch have "win button" abilities so that bronze-gold and 10 year olds can pretend to play the game at the expense of the integrity of the competitive scene. Pardon the wall of text, I just hate that with such integral flaws and intentional or casualized outlooks on balance Overwatch is still considered so highly, and it's not because of the gameplay at all-- It's because the damn thing looks pretty in uneventful screenshots. It's a steaming mess in terms of gameplay, balance changes are less than ideal (Looking at the 130-something days of broken Mercy), visual clarity is nonexistent, integrity of combat is nonexistent, they've begun adding autoaim, and to a support with excellent effectiveness as well as the best escape ability currently on a support no less, and they have no idea how to balance health pools against damage or healing, as we've seen with the repeated 3+ tank metas. Edit for clarity: Head hitboxes in Overwatch are inflated compared to TF2, however. This one is objectively true of all characters, and given how easy it is to 1shot kill on headshot in Overwatch, I think that this too is a god awful design decision. Cheers^

[@theFORZA66]

Tf2 is easier to aim in wut, theres less rapid movement in tf2

[@Nudgarrobot]

@Boi TF2 isnt' easier to aim in per-se, it's more skill based and less blind guessing/luck See my above points-- I don't want to flood the thread too much.

[@Mitioritos]

I think aim is more important in Tf2, and requires a better skill, because they are mostly harder to hit, for example demo, and doesn't do nearly as much damage as in overwatch.

[@theturtleoverlord414]

Mitioritos what do you mean demoman isn't in overwatch

[@Mitioritos]

Theturtleoverlord junkrat is basically botleg demoman

[@theSato]

lol

[@murc9733]

Lmao you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about

[@kaenachoo4783]

aquadrious no u

[@Jordan-eq4qe]

0:18 i haven’t seen a bounce like that since meet the demoman

[@proactiveomnipresentvessel6569]

It was even on a pyro

[@EtropolisGhost]

I'd say that the fact that TF2 has more mobility than overwatch also means it requires more skill to aim. Scouts, soldiers, and demos can be very fast and difficult to hit, and it's difficult to aim when you are moving really fast. Enjoyed the video, btw :)

[@paavoautio1974]

I have about 3000 hours and just now feel i know what i do in tf2

[@inisterlemon1516]

yeah.....3000+ hours and still get my ass fucked in fucking open

[@matthewskullblood9778]

ok so you suck and have a hard time learning anything

[@NaPH273]

not everyone is b4nny, man

[@gregtheflyingwhale]

because it is situational game and you can't be master of it. Never.

[@Waskomsause]

And that's a bad thing? better the becoming a master of the game and not having any kind of challenge to it.

[@overxgaming7948]

i like this type of content, very interesting. Keep it up :D

[@memelord7116]

OverX Gaming Get Tiranosaurus-rekt.

[@pipimipeanuts2112]

OverX Gaming kripp is that you?

[@overxgaming7948]

greenXeagle yes :D

[@downastronomical]

not salt kripp=worse than salt kripp

[@MichaelG45]

Swear to god some days on tf2 I am good and some days I’m not, that goddamn learning curve

[@MajorCrits404]

Dude just remember the TF2 graph just goes weeeeeeeeeeeee

[@darrenaqilawangsech8652]

@@MajorCrits404 it either is really like a wall or a puddle and sometimes it just goes W A V Y

[@scarieststories168]

sometimes i get mvp and get 20 killd with 5 deaths and the other day i cant even hit a single shot

[@mike4407]

Overwatch was meant for being friendly to new players as Jeff Kaplan said. Soldier 76 was designed to be a friendly hero for csgo and call of duty players. There is nothing wrong with it but Korea riched a point where I don't think that they can improve. Both games have to learn from each other. Tf2 needs tutorials and some notifications for team composition when you pick a class like in Overwatch. Overwatch needs something to make the heroes more versatile and not make them depend on cooldowns. It's obvious who would win a 1v1 between bastion and winston.

[@sman9681]

DrIvanRadosivic,what do you mean with armour bars and equipment item slots, what are you saying

[@sman9681]

no sorry these additions for tf2 are horrible, grenades were removed by the devs because they were OP, 7th item slot is going to break performance.

[@theSato]

Overwatch is a casual and accessible game. ..But TF2 is the *world's most casual game.* competitive tf2 is a joke lol

[@gdlizy]

Valve comp is a joke, but the community one is acceptable.

[@mike4407]

Geometry Dash LiZy comp is a joke the community one and the Valves one too. If you want to see competitive TF2 play on console because people are more serious there than at I61.

[@randomdude5633]

better example of mobility skill diffrences could have been pharah and soldier where you have to aim down at your feet jump crouch and strafe in the air at the same time as a soldier while as a pharah you just press a button...and...thats it.And I kinda disagree with the team comp part for tf2 cuz...loadouts?maybe?arent they more game changing than selecting mercy instead of moira?like you cant push a sentry with a kritzkrieg but with a normal uber you can?i dont mean OW doesnt have this stuff but TF2 graph was kinda unfair imo. great vid btw

[@MLPderpy732]

Bruh 92 but like, have you ever seen lucio rollouts? That getting up there with soldier rollouts tbh And the loadouts in tf2 usually don’t drastically change the class (except maybe a few cases) plus, a lot of the time, they use the stock weapons anyways.

[@blueyandicy]

Butterscotch732 I can agree with you on the wepons part, however, I still think a solider rollout is harder.

[@MLPderpy732]

Blueyandicy yeah, they are, I’m just saying some lucio rollouts you can do can get pretty insane and take a lot of time and skill to master

[@blueyandicy]

Butterscotch732 oh yeah, deff have to agree.

[@yougotthecrowbar]

As for team comp in TF2, his argument is flawed because 6s are composed of generalists for MOST of the match, however, its not super uncommon for a team to have some of their players switch to a specialist for a specific situation. If the team is losing noticeably but slowly, someone could switch to engie to set up on last, if they're losing a bit faster, they might switch to heavy (although they probably wont, lets be honest, when was the last time you saw heavy in a 6s match?). On the other hand, sniper is infamous is 6s because of how quickly proficient players drop medics, yet he's still not considered a core class in 6s because he's a specialist. We don't see these class changes a lot in high ranking 6s matches, but enough to argue that Toofty wasn't exactly being fair. That being said, of course OW's team comp is going to be more complicated, there's a LOT more heroes. While I think that certain loadouts change a class noticeably enough to affect team comp and how the team plays, it still doesn't compare to the raw amount of heroes in OW. Now, whether or not that's a good thing for either game is another topic altogether, but still, I think it was worth mentioning. TL:DR 6s matches do host more than just the generalist classes and loadouts do occasionally affect how you and your team play, but ultimately there are just more heroes in OW therefore more complex team comp.

[@memnun5615]

i feel like you might be misrepresenting the discussion of what you're calling "team comp" as far as tf2 is concerned. while there are less classes for sure, each tf2 class better represents a gameplay archetype and isn't necessarily fair to compare to a hero in overwatch. the skill set of good engineer gameplay, for example, is broken into its fundaments in overwatch, in the form of torbjorn, symmetra, orisa, winston, and to an extent lucio. then if you were to switch from stock engineer to say, rescue ranger/wrangler/southern hospitality, the skills required for those weapons is going to be more in line with torb/sym, bastion, ana, and sombra. then of course you can forego the meta for engie and go widowmaker and gunslinger and be a better reaper. each change in loadout, even a small one, can change the matchup in tf2 enough that you have to learn a lot more about the abilities of different weapon combos than you need in overwatch.

[@gregtheflyingwhale]

Don't be mistaken! Tf2 has not 9 but at least 20 classes. You know what I mean. Demoknights, Marketgardeners, hunters with crossbows, spies-snipers, Pocket medics or medics-Rambos, engie gunslinger... and of course: SPYCRABS and HOOVIES, etc.

[@kaenachoo4783]

Григорий Дубров their called trolldiers not market gardeners!

[@acewithasmile]

Kaena Choo reeeee they are called shovel men

[@beefybread5769]

No more spy snipers. They nerfed the weapon into the ground instead of giving the weapon 2x damage on headshot regardless of range so that atleast the falloff damage deals something.

[@justanalias5642]

Hybrid knights, gun spies, sucide demo (caber), etc.

[@soup6381]

*s c u n t*

[@horlof1]

i think that overwatch was a bit easy for me to pick up because i have a lot of experience with both MOBA and FPS games so to me overwatch was quite easy to understand but tf2 got me a hard time to learn because it isnt your usual fps and it had nothing i was familiar with, so like you said everyone learns in a different way

[@comagreeny7194]

i started playing overwatch and in my first game i was called a smurf

[@officialromanhours]

Yeesh

[@goldfish6525]

I started playing tf2 and on my first day I was called a cheater.

[@ryguy4465]

Being called a smurf is usually good, people think that you’re using a different account and you’re actually a more advanced player.

[@charlesfort6602]

You forgot about the ,,F2P phenomen'' in TF2, where wearing a Ghostly gibus and Pyrovision googles increase your learning time by 1000% and decrease the skill celing by 100%

[@feedtheorist9944]

aim being equal? are you kidding me lmao? ow has super generous hitboxes

[@jjooeeyy2659]

Joe Brown projectile hitboxes are pretty broken in tf2 as well, i agree though

[@aaronhuang419]

Trangender Toester projectile hitboxes are ok, but melee is fucking ridiculous lol

[@cuddlypoetatoe5589]

The hit box size is made up for by the sheer ridonculous amount of BOBBLE HEAD SYNDROME in OW, so they’re about the same

[@feedtheorist9944]

ow headshot hitboxes are also massive tbh

[@MLPderpy732]

Joe Brown not really though

[@sage1103]

tf2's learning curve is like my heartbeat

[@memistcentral2044]

That means you'll suck after I'm done with you

[@TheSalmoneer]

Irregular

[@puppeteer3964]

800 hours in tf2 and i still have no idea what the heck is going on

[@LiakkDoesStuff]

2500 hours in and I just learned that you’re supposed to crouch when you rocket/sticky jump

[@agnosthesia]

But in tf2, instead of changing characters to fit the situation, you may need to switch weapons. While there are many weapons that are generally useful, there are also heroes like mccree and mercy (at least, those were really common when I last played) that are generally useful in Overwatch, so they are found in most games. Also, the large amount of maps and weapons in tf2 make positioning and composition of the character's loadout more varied and difficult to learn. Also, it is way easier to die in tf2, so combat is more tense and relies more on split-second decisions, and the close range of many encounters requires pixel precision in where you shoot. Thus concludes my essay on a video I was supposed to be enjoying. Why do I do this to myself?

[@Tom_-]

I'd say TF2 is a much harder game to get good at, which can be seen by many as a good thing, but Overwatch is so much easier to pick up I feel it's a much more well-designed game.

[@Nathgrffth]

I prefer overwatch because I suck at video games and I like having some impact on a match unlike TF2, where if you suck, your kinda left by yourself with a bunch of internet trolls

[@triangletriangle4520]

I think the skill curve is better designed but the content itself, the weapons and characters have nowhere near the level of good design as the tf2 mercs

[@buud7947]

👏 Overwatch 👏 is 👏 missing 👏 depth 👏

[@userPrehistoricman]

I play TF2 for the storyline

[@PanRokador]

Fun fact - both TF2 and OW have lore and story.

[@QuestionableLogic_]

Prehistoricman Overwatch has more of lore in terms of being integrated into the gameplay.

[@yorha9949]

Questionable Logic So??? Do you go on looking for Lore in a game or capturing the point???

[@samvise7404]

Sudha Kumari They were replying to someone who said they played tf2 for the storyline? Lol, headass.

[@chair448]

I thought the part where your voice overlapped was some sort of joke I accidentally skipped past lol

[@psyneur9182]

tf2 is one of the few games these days that have a super in-depth, hard to master movement system. to me, how you move can make or break a game. moving in overwatch does feel clunky and weird, i think. there isn't much skill besides strafing.

[@pigeo8679]

is it just me or did toofty ignore ultimates, stun mechanics, giant character models ?

[@Toofty]

Unfortunately there was LOADS of stuff I couldn't cover in this video because I wanted to keep it short. But if there is interest I could break out various topics and make more focused and in depth videos.

[@thespaceofades2734]

Pigeo 1. Ultimates are easy to avoid. At least half of them can be deflected/deleted with a good Genji or D.va 2. I wouldn't say that stuns are unfair, but they are unfun to play against. 3. You're probably right, the hitboxes should be changed.

[@fattytan1377]

@@thespaceofades2734 heheh "Good" genji and d.va

[@dndryan]

juicy ball analogies

[@pajeknight1388]

Dylan Ryan I like you profile pic

[@deyvantwo5426]

hi tavros

[@conor_obrien]

IMO you confuse team composition with metas and formats, in TF2's case. Furthermore, team composition means more than just classes, it also means load outs. Prolander (7s) is a much more dynamic and interesting format and requires knowing when to run a certain class to counter what the other team might be running.

[@banana_]

the good thing is that both are really different, and you can still enjoy them separately

[@LividImp]

6:12 Oh man, if I had a dime for every "pro" that was bragging about their 400 hours in the game...

[@darrenaqilawangsech8652]

I'm a ~25 hours in TF2 and i feel like i'm an eh to bad player. not that i am surprised that is.

[@LividImp]

@@darrenaqilawangsech8652 Takes about 1000 hours to really get competent at the game. I didn't feel I was "good" for another 1000 or 2000 after that. And that is just "pub good". But I'm old, so you young'ns could potentially do it in half the time. The good part of that is you will be constantly learning and improving for years. You can't say that about all games. Even supposedly high skill shooters tend to plateau much quicker than TF2

[@Samstar369]

A little relevant story time on a true event: In 2014, I met a young lad who was a year younger than me, I had played tf2 longer than he had, so when I introduced it to him, he got almost instantly addicted. From about a month, he’s already gotten hats and killstreaks, which were new at the time, and many new things were added in that time, but anyways, my buddy improved a lot, from not knowing how to land headshots to dominating an entire server, no cheats or help needed. My friend claimed all he’s done is self-teaching. Trial and error, from observing some players way better than I was at the time, then trying out his own version of their moves, almost inventing his own skills in the process. I was destroyed by the end of the month, having a large gap and I had to catch up to him, getting very frustrated at how I kept dying to crits, headshots, and meatshots every single round from one person. His learning ability was so scary, he caught up to an average pro KZbin tf2ber in a month, something I know for a fact that a good 90% won’t be able to do. To this day, I’ve almost caught up, I’ve beaten him to airshots and trickstabs, but he’s beaten me in reflects, demo, soldier, sniper, hell even medic for the number of times I’ve been killed by crits, Scouts, and rarely an engineer, but through these years he’s developed a ton of improved gamesense. That’s the end of my story, I just threw out there because TF2’s learning curve varies from person to person. My friend freakin’ discovered trimping, something I wasn’t aware of before. Smh, this guy’s such a talented human, I’ve become his real life friend and he’s such a darn good musician, student, and linguist. His talent is learning, I’ve come to find out.

[@saswatmishra6917]

But doesn't tf2 have more weapons to choose from. So there are more subclasses in tf2 than there are heroes in overwatch? Haven't played overwatch, so don't know if you can switch weapons there too

[@rocroif3324]

Saswat Mishra In Overwatch you always have the same weapons

[@jackhudner3804]

Technically TF2 has more options for your loadout than Overwatch (as Overwatch has no unlockable weapons) but in terms of feeling like a whole new class or subclass, Overwatch beats out TF2 in that sense (the only real "subclasses" that feel entirely different just by what you use as opposed to your playstyle being Gunslinger Engie, Huntsman Sniper, Demoknight and Hybrid-knight. Most weapons don't change enough to be considered a new subclass).

[@texasscs]

Jack Hudner you forgot trolldier, battle med, fat scout, sticky knight, engi tank, sniper spy, and flyro just to name a few you missed

[@jackhudner3804]

Austin Berget Trolldier, Battle Med, Fat Scout, Engi Tank, Sniper Spy and Flyro are all playstyles enabled by certain weapons, not subclasses. Sticky knight could be considered a subclass to an extent however.

[@texasscs]

Jack Hudner trolldier is a subclass same with engineer tank, and if we go by your logic then gunslinger isn't a subclass since it only changes one weapon

[@shenyang6007]

8:12 did I just hear "OW requires aim?"

[@madhatter984]

Yes it does try playing widow,Mc cree does require aiming symmetra and winston dont.

[@akkey120]

Purrcat please you can't expect that from this person,this tf2 fan boy is just blindly hating the superior game.

[@madhatter984]

:)

[@Nhyufll]

Raynee Morning you are ignoring his point and call him ignorant go back too watching cartoons and losing more braincells because you cant actually defend your statements

[@akkey120]

Cypher Toruk no need to get that made about your dead game.

[@fiddleriddlediddlediddle]

"We don't objectify Ladies and their lovely humpy bumps." I die happy now that you said humpy bumps.

[@hamsterman932]

I’m at that point where I can do ok at casual, but know I’m bad

[@slayerYurrie]

level 3 soy boy

[@pupinator98]

TooftyTV has found: *soylent drink*

[@hefdef9961]

so, when are you making the tf2 bonus video?

[@kabosui]

I like tf2 more and love the EXTREMELY costomizable plays and weapons

[@JosephJoeseph]

Yeah I was playing medieval mode one day and just getting a lot of cool huntsman plays and I thought I became an absolute god with arrows but now that I think about it it was mostly just luck

[@heftymagic4814]

Overwatch is indeed easier.

[@dotaro3741]

I hate how many hours I played Overwatch, but I will always agree that tf2 has way easier team comp., but imo tf2 is more fun

[@bautistahayashi3522]

What hapens with the Team composition of teams is realy a problem of the game Mode used in comp

[@stefanh.5752]

Also in my opinion it's harder to aim Tf2 bc hitboxes are kinda not working very well, in OW the hitboxes are let's say "nice"

[@motori8088]

Sir CampAlot overwatch has fat targets while tf2 has thin and fast targets

[@jackhudner3804]

heippa Moro Overwatch has a pretty wide variety of hitbox sizes, ranging from "I literally cannot miss this" Roadhog to "I literally cannot hit this" Moira. TF2 hitboxes are in the middle because they are large but don't work very well.

[@outofsync6599]

Tf2 has pretty good hitboxes that are mostly consistent of what the player model shows you Most of the people's complain s about tf2's hitboxes are due to internet problems

[@PanRokador]

Yeah, from my 1.2k hours experience, I can confirm that TF2 hitboxes are very weird, especially because those are super heavly depending on the PING, so seeing spy teleporting around and stabbing you from the second side of the map can be completelly normal sometimes.

[@outofsync6599]

it's not really the hitbox that's broken Tho they depend on ping meaning that he higher the Ping the less accurate it becomes and most servers are arround 130+ ping. Tf2 hitbox isn't broken networking is tho you can fix it with console commands

[@mirrir]

-Aiming I'd like to point out that both games also have projectile weapons, so it's not just clicking on the middle of peoples' heads. TF2 also has cl_interp, cl_interp_ratio and probably others, that change where you have to aim, as you can force hitboxes to lag behind the models for facestab/cornerkill advantage. -Gamesense Positioning goes with coordination. Team comp is also not that hard in OW, as at least half of the heroes are not meta/generally underpowered. While the TF2 team comp meta is also rock solid, there are still weapon choices -besides all the tournament bans- and non-5cp maps get more use out of the offclasses.

[@kingstannis1158]

But in TF2 you run the same team comp 99% of the time. Unllike in OW you have about 20 viable hero picks to choose from. Sure there is a meta in OW that see use of some heroes more than others but still.

[@efgee9873]

Lol you kidding? Facestab advantage? Looool Facestabs happen due to lag compensation, hitbox changes not involved.

[@dzp11177]

Going up to 600 hours and I'm finally starting to get skilled as a medium-fast speed

[@lumensmith9787]

I feel like you kind of ignored off-classing in tf2 when you talked about team comp.

[@JustifiedH8]

I don't think I can agree with the team composition being more complicated or requiring more skill in Overwatch. While yes, Overwatch has situational team compositions and the ability to stack classes (like quad-tank or whatever), it basically revolves around "X is countered by Y and Z". Whereas in TF2 there's much more depth when it comes to the classes themselves and also the different loadouts. If we compare Phara to the Soldier for example; yes both can RJ, both deal splash damage, bot have knockback and both counter stationary classes and clusters of enemies. But can a Phara outplay a Widowmaker by equipping a faster firing rocket? Can a Phara be played as a semi-support like the Soldier with Banner or Disc Action? And if that Phara is supported by a mercy, do I need to worry about a sudden damage spike, invulnerability or damage absorbtion? Nah, I don't think so. Overwatches characters are way more rigid in their gameplay than the classes of TF2 and that won't change. Even though Blizzard is always patching in new heroes, the individual heroes don't evolve. Yes, you might get a new tank but in the end that new tank will ALWAYS play the same way, with the same skills, weapons and (dis)advantages. TF2 classes on the other hand is way more flexible in their gameplay by loadout and the interaction within their team. So there's no way you can soundly consider Overwatch (a game so simplified and extra-accessible) to be more in depth or require a higher skill ceiling when it comes to team composition.

[@wordenit9351]

Monarch Can a pharah outplay a widow by taking a faster firing rocketlauncer? -no Can pharah outplay a widow by getting gud -yes

[@JustifiedH8]

I was talking about team composition. Assuming we're talking about teams that take the game somewhat serious, they're all more or less "gud". Or at least you'd go into a match expecting a certain level of skill from your opponent and team. What I was saying is that (except for the obvious hard-counters and basic team composition) there's no more depth in Overwatch, whereas TF2 has a whole metagame surrounding loadouts and the interaction between those. Pharah in Overwatch always plays like Pharah. A soldier in TF2 can be played as a support, assassin and to some extent tank (if we put it in Overwatch terms). Throw another class in the mix and the variations increase exponentially. That's not me saying that Overwatch is bad for only really allowing one playstyle from each class - it's just the way it is. Limiting variety in the way players can interact with one another can also be a good thing (and in a casual-targeted game like Overwatch it definitely is), BUT it is definitely easier to master and thus has a lower skill-curve.

[@theSato]

Yes, Overwatch is a casual game. But TF2 is THE world's most casual game. Overwatch has more complexity in terms of teamplay, what each hero can do, and the interactions of gameplay. Overwatch does not have random crits (lmao). Overwatch actually has a competitive scene that isn't considered a joke by the entire gaming community. Certainly a lot more than TF2 can say. Once again, they're both casual games (and slightly shit when taken seriously) but Overwatch is the far better/more complex game at a competitive level, and has a higher skill ceiling in every single way other than 'raw mechanical skill' (they're tied in that regard, for different reasons)

[@gdlizy]

Now you are just nitpicking, you are using comp OW vs casual tf2. There is no random crit in comp. The number of heroes in OW will always be least than the number of variables wep in tf2, so the complexity of tf2 is more than OW. ( Sheer amount of wep, playstyle and techniques. ) What? OW has higher skill ceiling? Wow, have you ever heard of rocket jumping? Do you think that press a button is better than doing it ourselves? ( I know it's exaggerated but you get the point. ) I would like to know about the *has a higher skill ceiling in every single way other than 'raw mechanical skill'* part in detail.

[@hexzyle]

Geometry Dash LiZy Complexity ≠ Depth

[@TheFoolishSamurai]

TF2's skill ceilings and learning curves are sort of thrown out the window given the sh*t TF2 does to you. Random crits, unbalanced weapons, poorly-aged designs, the most brain-dead of brain-dead players (not friendlies, mind you) being lopped in with masters, and other bits and pieces makes TF2 a chaotic experience. It might be fun with said chaos, but at the same time, the game might just bend you over your desk and fuck you with no reason. For me, it's the latter a lot of the time, whether I'm dicking around or playing seriously.

[@gristCollector]

Neo Machine And then there's community-run TF2 competitions...

[@crass5335]

Wait, do you really think there are random crits and unbalanced weapons allowed in a 6s match in TF2?

[@gristCollector]

Crass Nope lol. I was just trying to steer him to the balanced gameplay of Comp TF2... (Although I could've done that better heh)

[@TheFoolishSamurai]

Crass I was refering more to general learning and skill, casual play. Valve's casual TF2 is what most people play, learn from, and so on.

[@theturtleoverlord414]

grist Collector for a random player to play in?

[@WaveOfDestiny]

So after some hours of overwatch i already kinda picked my favourite heroes for each category, learned all their abilities and how to use them most effectivetly. I'm almost at level 25 now, almost unlocking competitive maches, and i picked my main but still play a lot of other characters when needed. I recently learned how to move with each character and medkits on the map and stuff. Now that i learned the basics, it's time to get better at my main and the other 2 i like to use, then i suppose i'll be focusing on countering the enemy and learn more of the maps. I played less hours on tf2, but besides the first hours where i didn't have a clue of what was going on, i still feel i didn't learn much from my maches. Don't know what to pick and i always choose randomly, I forget how the map behaves, i don't know how and who counters another character of the enemy team. When i think i got it, someone else finds another strategy i didn't expect and kills me. Example, pick the sniper, stay in a window but then pyro gets me. So i try to find a place where pyro would not get me, and a flying demo rockets me. Then i stay behind and a spy gets me. I get bored and pick heavy and something else happens. I try scout and i get killed immediatly. I try spy but no. Yet i know what are the capabilities of these characters, so i suppose i don't know how to use them. But i don't know how to learn either.

[@TheLocalGoofball]

could be a lack of good design on tf2’s part

[@Spubbily01]

5:33 Ah yes, I too go back in time in my learning curve

[@notyetdeleted6319]

There’s a vast amount of tf2 loadouts, and therefore many more small classes, compared to overwatches few split classes.

[@josiahtrelawny8612]

I like both and all games. If it adds more to my dull, boring, sad life? I don't care

[@cooperjobe8360]

after having 1k+ hours and playing on comp teams in both games I feel like the individual and mechanical skills are more valued and skill ceilings are higher in tf2 while coordination and team play are much more valued and harder to master in overwatch. This is just my personal opinion.

[@Kpop_stole_foids_fromcurrycell]

only classes that require skill are demoman and soldier, scout and sniper lol, which ow has equivalent heros like junkrat as demoman, tracer as scout, sniper as widowmaker. Besides, ow will release many more characters so the skill ceiling will increase forever. Only hard thing to do in Tf2 is rocket jump tbh lol.

[@masterdeetectiv9520]

@@Kpop_stole_foids_fromcurrycell pretty much every class needs a lot of skill (except maybe heavy). pyro needs a lot of skill with comboes and flares, engineer needs a ridiculous amount of skill with maintaining nests and possitioning sentries, medic needs to coordinate ubers and aim crossbow bolts, and spy is like the hardest class to do well with

[@sorbet7216]

Oh a OW vs Tf2 video? What an original idea!

[@Toofty]

Oh a sarcastic comment about how this topic has never been done before? What an original comment! Apologies for sarcasm/retaliation. I know it's a rinsed topic, I make a joke about this in my intro. I normally try to avoid but but I just really wanted to do it. So I did. And apparently there's still an appetite for it looking at the viewing figures :)

[@sorbet7216]

TooftyTV Oh a KZbinr who actually responds to his comments? What a good KZbinr!

[@Tom_-]

TF2 is having a comeback as a game for edgy hipsters that think Overwatch is too mainstream. Used to be all bloody Bronies and people with hentai sprays.

[@Samstar369]

karasawa21797 Fortnite is the new Overwatch, it’s gotten so much attention and even children have infected the community, not as bad as TF2, but kids actually feel more egoistic/egotistical in FN. TF2 is surprisingly more tame than OW and FN

[@bacca4813]

I'm fairly certain I have whatever the opposite of the Dunning Kruger effect is.

[@Ze_N00B]

Overwatch players run up hills, Team Fortress 2 players scale mountains. If you want to do it quick, play OW, if you want to reach your highest, play TF2. Overwatch doesn't teach you, it only allows you to do things that are easy to learn (speak of Pharah's flight) tf2 doesn't teach you either but allows you to learn how to do everything (soldier's rocket jump).

[@hybonesdx]

"Since no one has compared TF2 and overwatch" That doesn't sound right chief

[@_vallee_5190]

No one has ever been able to understand sarcasm ever.

[@stefanh.5752]

"It puts you against people of a similar skill level" good joke it's almost as bad as in Tf2, I played like two ranked games (I'm level 37) and I was playing against a Level 600 a level 200 and a level 70 in my team we had one guy that was like 80 or something so yeah really balanced, we got so hard demolished that they stopped playing properly and were just memeing... And we still got fucked. Oh yeah and in the second game the same shit happened only that this time the ultra pros were in my team I'm not sure if that's how balancing works

[@senseihello]

level means absolute jack shit

[@stefanh.5752]

Sena Clarke Yeah that's probably why we got raped so hard

[@stefanh.5752]

Sena Clarke, I had silver eliminations as Lucio

[@jackhudner3804]

Sir CampAlot Quickplay matchmaking is pretty good, but Comp matchmaking can fuck off. Comp matchmaking tends to suck everywhere.

[@MLPderpy732]

Sir CampAlot Just because someone plays more then you, doesn’t mean they’re better then you. And if it was your first 2 comp matches, then the game is trying to figure out where you should be, that’s what the placement matches are for, as you play more and more ranked matches, you should move towards the right place

[@brazedinbacon9673]

>mains demo >sticky spams >uses medium health packs to heal 1 hp Good content tho

[@iononionunion8682]

I like to play engineer but I only got the game recently. Fortunately I’ve binge watched uncle Dane’s videos like ten times now so I knew a lot of the strategies and concepts from the get go. Would I say I’m good, hell no! My aim with a shotgun is trash and I’m yet to put into execution like half of the stuff I know I should be doing. All I’m saying is for new players to look at advice/guides from the community before starting as to not join a game and get immediately clapped by a veteran and think that they half no chance and quit.

[@Da_cocobong]

Hold up lad, shouldn’t tf2 have higher aim skill ceiling than OW? Since tf2 has mostly single shot weapons that reward good aim while overwatch has a lot of “spray and pray” type weapons?

[@SlyRocko]

At this point Valve wants a higher skill ceiling in team comp by making as many things as viable as possible. However, I think in order for Valve to successfully push this idea, the community, especially the competitive community, should also have a very open mind to all of the changes.

[@gristCollector]

Sly Rocko Valve's recent changes are actually somewhat positively received by the community afaik

[@martinxXsuto]

the pros are pretty open to most changes. For example there are 2 reasons why a weapon gets banned from comp play. The first is broken mechanics (duh) The second is it being overpowered to the point where you need to run it to not be at a huge disadvantage (like KGB will get a heavy to mid and annihilate everything, quick fix has +40% heal rate, so you'd need to do at least 20% more damage to break even on a mid fight just because the medic didn't bring quick fix). Any other weapon is allowed

[@murky8268]

Erm, taking into account team composition, but disregarding loadout composition? On terms of purely team comp OW would be greater (but not by too much. 6s, especially on KotH and the old days of A/D Gravelpit, would have a bunch of offclassing.) But with loadout composition, that really drastically changes. There is in excess of 6 000 possible loadout options, to Overwatch's 0. Knowing when to use banners and what ones, with which RL, for each situation, is a lot to take into account. Sure there's meta weapons, but completely disregarding the existence of a loadout doesn't accurately show a skill/knowledge ceiling.

[@Pf4nni]

700 hours in TF2 and I'm learning how to rocket jump and hit rockets as soldier with the help pf jump maps and mge. Recently I started using pogo jumps and I can feel my improvements. There are so many techniques I haven't tried yet.

[@meann7221]

700 hours. Fucking casual

[@faker6968]

My opinion: Tf2: Quality Overwatch: Quantity I prefer quality, but it's MY PREFERENCE

[@shotya9403]

tf2 has a higher mastery level then overwatch because it has more things to master and learn when overwatch just cut of that features and simplefies it with like press a button to get in the air and fly whener tf2 expands that and says okay so you can go in air but you cant control yourself so here now learn pogo jump and do sick tricks and thats kinda the point that tf2 still alive and overwatch got a little boring for the players that played the game for about 6-8 months because they mastered everything that they could done but tf2 pro's and players still trying to learn new things because there is so much to do there is so much hidden mechanics that players need to learn and thats why tf2 is a good game and still a relevant to today's standards for these games and whener somebody says tf2 is dying really check it up when overwatch was released there was better traffic for this game and even now on still new players come to play this game so no tf2 isnt dying and its not going to die in the long run for overwatch its a *competive* game with new charathers to master but still some of them are almost the same as others and they cant do it for forever and its worrying if they can keep it up for the long run im a tf2 fan thats a thing but i have a big respect for this game and im not looking bad at overwatch its a nice game with good things to do and its *FUN* but it restricts your freedom because you need to do the objective *(its a competive game thats why)* but in tf2 you have bigger freedom to do things but its harder to get your team organized to win the game and its a war themed hat game not *competive* in the first place but there is an option to do that in overwatch the good thing is that you can keep up with other players because you can learn easily in that game and you dont get destroyed by others so you can help your team and win the game for conclusion both game are at it finest and hope they can live together at peace and even try to make player switches to get more players to know the other game too and start to play it everybody wins really so yeah if you read the hole thing or 1 section of it please respond i wanna know your thoughts about my opinion :)

[@buffet_time]

Hitboxes in tf2 are much more realistitc where as we all have seen the videos of how far from the models you can hit in overwatch. Also it's obvious TF2 has a higher skill ceiling Overwatch wasn't really well designed at all for comp it's a joke. It's designed for being a quick to pick up casual game.

[@Paradoxicality]

TF2's normal mode has random crits and random bullet spread. The game was never for for comp

[@buffet_time]

Ya that's why they left Rocket Jumping, Trimping, Stick Jumping, etc. all in and have a server side variable for bullet spread since iirc day one. Casual mode =/= comp. Overwatch on the otherhand has massive hitboxes, simplistic movement, and everything about it is just so much more simplistic and easy.

[@imasepan]

"Realistic" meanwhile hitreg is shit in tf2

[@buffet_time]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qIKQpJymaZJ2fNk

[@imasepan]

Fanical nigga i have 6 ping when i play on some cp orange maps and it still has bad hitreg tf2 is an old game and the netcode is shit thats why commands like cl_interp exist smh

[@GoldGalaxianFin]

Its like this. Overwatch has hereos and Tf2 has personal class characters. Learning Ow is like "oh alright, that hero does that and has that" while tf2 is liks "is that jetpack pyro? Did i actually kill the spy? Trying to do rocket jumps and demo jumps. What items does that heavy use" and so on. Ow is 6 v 6 while tf2 can be 12 v 12 clusterf*ck. And if we go to the competitive side "which tf2 has none because everybody playes custom games" Ow is basically made to be competitive and team work effective game while the only team work you get on tf2 is medic and heavy.

[@GoldGalaxianFin]

I have played both games and like both

[@orangejuiceenthusiast8364]

But the heavy med combo is only TRULY effective if the medic is pocketing the heavy with either stock or the vaccinator. If the medic is using the kritz, he’s better off pocketing a soldier/demo. An engineers whole job is to also aid with teamwork, with him building dispensers to replenish health and ammo and teles to bring the team to the front lines. A scout/spy/sniper is crucial to a team for important picks on high value targets (I.e. a medic, an enemy sniper, or an enemy scout.) So your argument about “no teamwork in tf2” is pretty much invalid.

[@aaronjackson4541]

You're saying there's no comp tf2? Dude there's thousands of tf2 teams ranging from iron to invite all across the world from 6s and highlander.

[@kraddle2360]

weeeeell tf2 can also be 4 v 12 CLUSTERFUCK

[@firesniperbullet2]

Overwatch revolves around the ultimates The hitboxes are massive in overwatch as well pretty hard to miss Put 2 and 2 together~ Simple and shallow game which proves anything can be a E-sport

[@theSato]

Nope. It's true OW has more generous hitboxes than TF2, but not by a lot. Overwatch has so much more depth and competitive balance in literally every other regard, though. TF2 is literally the world's MOST casual game, and there's a reason that the gaming community almost unanimously laughs at the idea of competitive OW

[@TooFewSecrets]

+Sato How is pressing shift or e as Pharah comparatively skillful to practicing rocket jumping and airstrafing for dozens of hours? How is ground movement skillful when nobody has any momentum in Overwatch?

[@farhatu1542]

Too Few Secrets how is movement the only thing that determines a game?????

[@beau9956]

Firesniperbullet2 Overwatch Revolves around 3 things 1. positioning (self explanatory) 2. Counter picks (knowing when your Hero is countered and knowing what hero to change to in order to counter the people who had countered you 3. Ability Management.. not just of your personal abilities and not just of your teams abilities but of EVERYONES abilities, its about knowing when to use a particular ability (lets say Ana's sleep Dart) to put to sleep the Ulting Genji It's about knowing when Zarya will have her Ult and when she will use it so D.va can Defense Matrix it and render it useless.. to simply say "it revolves around Ultimates is stupid, Ultimates can be countered by having better positioning and lots of Ultimates can be countered by standard abilities, its not about getting your ult and just popping it off (unless your tracer). you're over simplistic description of this game has bought shame to your family.

[@Waskomsause]

Hes said this about TF2 every time, hes a fanboy stuck so far up his own ass he can see his own teeth.

[@TriggerzConnors]

Most of dislikes, its a bunch of tryhard overwatch players.

[@huh5058]

In my opinion, TF2 has a higher ceiling for aim. In OW you have a lot of heroes that have rapid fire/automatic weapons. In TF2, most classes have single fire/semi-auto weapons. Even Heavy, a class who has an automatic weapon for his primary, still has some form of semi-auto weapon for his secondary. For the counter-class thing, I agree. There are a lot of classes to keep in mind in OW, so you NEED to know what counters what. Team comp. is also harder in OW because you can only have 1 of every class in a team, making it harder to know what to use. Also, this is MY OPINION. You are free to not agree.

[@sinkopeso9163]

Mcree

[@manly7315]

The team compesition is more for new players because today i played a game of upward and there were only 4 diferent classes-pyro,scout,sniper,spy

[@korkad_]

My favorite mobility skill in OW is definitely wallriding with lucio, nothing can really compare to it in tf2

[@WarChaserz]

id like to see you rocket jump wall to wall without touching the ground in TF2 way better than seeing where you would stick your landing and hold the space bar trust me I main Lucio and Zenyetta but nothing beats a Rocket Jumping soldier especially when you use a stock rocket launcher to go where you need to go I don't mind you saying your favorite mobility skill in OW but when you said nothing can really compare to it in tf2? thats the problem right there you should also try rocket jumping engies or cannon jumping demoknights

[@acidplatypus5270]

i believe you are talking about surfing

[@peytonstein8616]

I used to do a fair bit of rocket jumping in TF2 and do a fair bit of lucio rollouts now. They are different. Soldier 76 ironically has the most similar rocket jumping mechanic. He can do soldiers rocket jump but it does much more damage to him and has a way longer CD between shots. So its not viable Lucios rollout is a mix of surfing and rocket jumping. and feels the nicest out of all movement skills in an FPS imo.

[@iamnobody7044]

Pekka.D ever heard of surfing, or trimping? Or charge-surfing?

[@zosuke6917]

OhU WoWEe, a bLack gUy SurfInG is BettAr tHAn A GuY jUMpiNg WitH RocKEts!!!!

[@Roxfox]

This just makes me realize that the concept of a learning curve is probably completely irrelevant when it comes to comparing games... The only thing a learning curve is meant to show is how quickly a person can learn to be proficient at a task, right? It doesn't work for comparing the relative complexity of two different tasks. A complex task with a very smooth learning process and a simple task with a really convoluted and inefficient learning process can end up having the same learning curve, and in the end that says nothing about the actual complexity of the task at hand and whether the learning process is good or bad, which are the exact things we're actually after when it comes to comparing the learning of different games. It would be far more useful to have an axis which represents something like... and I know this is utterly abstract, but something like a concept of how much a player is required to learn simultaneously in order to make any meaningful progress toward contributing in a game. Where something like a deathmatch game just requires moving, aiming and shooting has a very low threshhold to "usefulness", something like Overwatch or CS requires learning about objectives and characters or loadouts, meaning you have to study a bit more before you can play effectively, and a game like Arma would have a huge first step to even learning the minimum required basics, with oodles of functions to even move around the environment and use your equipment and weapons. I think that's what we're actually after when we try to compare learning curves in games. That, along with how many more steps like that exist to learn over time until one has mastery over everything, and how long it would realistically take to get there. That's where a game like TF2 would have a much longer staircase than Overwatch because of how many more variables there can potentially be in any given game, and how much the game communicates those details to the player. But whether it's steeper or just longer would be a factor of whether those nuances are absolutely required to be effective at the game at that skill level, or if it's just a small help the more you know about them... And while typing this I'm seeing a comment wondering if TF2 should have a steeper curve simply because it requires more precise aim, and this makes me question whether "skill" is something that you "learn". Is knowledge the same thing as proficiency? Is a game harder to learn because it requires more dexterity or faster reflexes, or is a "learning" curve purely a factor of knowing what to do in a given situation? I guess in the end, aiming is one of those things that it sort of doesn't matter how good you are objectively, you just have to be better than your opponent, so I don't believe that should be a factor as a learning curve in a game more than it is part of the inherent competition of multiplayer. Although it definitely impacts the skill ceiling, which lies parallel to the top of the learning curve... hm... Okay now I'm done musing. This is what happens when I have one more hour of downtime at work on a weekend and I've run out of youtube videos to watch. Carry on!

[@Ehibika]

interesting read regardless, but I do feel that in the world of shooters, people value aim skill and movement skill above all else because in head on fight between two people, it's those things that decide who wins and who loses. but ultimately, I find skill ceiling discussions to be driven more by glory than by any real intent to observe the nature of a game. because a game with a high skill ceiling apparently has more worth than a game with a lower skill ceiling, and saying Tf2's skill ceiling is higher than overwatch's is a way of saying that Tf2 is objectively better than overwatch in every area that matters. after all, who willingly admits that their favorite game has a low skill ceiling? that phrase translates to "my favorite game has no real value in the long run and is systematically worse than all others"

[@mindlessbanter2458]

I love this video, it really broadened my view on the subject. I honestly was biased to TF2 being the better, but now I clearly see their both have an equal skill cap. Each has it's unique skills that make the game special and just as good as the other, I thank you personally for making this video it really did open my eyes in this subject.

[@z_monty]

5 years and still stuck in the mid / low-mid skill group, it's just an enjoyable game overall and worth playing even if I don't have the talent to go any further as a player

[@howthehellareya8010]

Tf2 takes pure aiming skill and if you cant aim, you get punished. Overwatch needs game sense and teamwork but can have a higher skill ceiling for the complicated heroes

[@lag00n54]

that's just shite the damage is pity-full where i can just use diamond back for each backstabs and destroyed buildings with saps gives free crit

[@LiLScunt]

Fatty Yogurt is this why i get a 3/45 KD ratio?

[@Elphret101]

The so called "Skill ceiling" of TF2 heavily consist of game bugs that became features, vexing mechanics (spy's backstab potential anyone?) and various counter intuitive mechanics that are more to do with the knowledge of the game's coding itself as opposed to the presented gameplay, whereas Overwatch works on much more intuitive mechanics and much more fluid gameplay as opposed to the comparatively clunky TF2

[@Ehibika]

I'm glad somebody has said this, as much as I love and still love TF2, the things that give it such a high skill ceiling have more to do with unintentional system quirks than anything else, and the community has embraced these to the point of damning overwatch for being so consistent, for making all it's mechanics clear to the player. of course, overwatch has special movement quirks too, like the fact brigitte can trimp like a demoknight (a mechanic they seemed to have patched out but restored again for some reason)

[@Waskomsause]

Rocket jumping, second scoping, deception as a spy, when to pop uber, what uber to use, what medi-gun to use if uber isn't a factor, where to put a sentry, which way to face it, what map you're on, what route to take, who to pocket with your heals, if you should even pocket or if you should spread them out, what class to bring along, what loadout to pick, which weapons will work for the map you're on, which type of gamemode you're playing. I could keep going but this is getting boring, point is TF2 isn't all about the game code, it has a load of things that allow you to change the outcome of a game.

[@Elphret101]

The implication being that overwatch has none of those?

[@dauvidel]

I don't think that was the point of Waskomsauce's comment. The OC implied that the skill ceiling of TF2 "...heavily consists of game bugs that became features, vexing mechanics...and various counter intuitive mechanics that are more to do with the knowledge of the games coding itself as opposed to the presented gameplay", which isn't exactly true. While I can't say anything about Overwatch (except that I don't care for its artstyle myself) because i haven't played it, I can say that TF2 is a fairly complex game before you even begin to consider the bugs and glitches that are present. And while i haven't played it, I would be more than surprised if Overwatch didn't have bugs itself, because every game is programmed by people and therefore is subject to the errors inherent in everything humankind produces. The TF2 community is tolerant of the game's bugs because they love the game, much in the same way that I suspect Overwatch's community accepts the bugs in it. In my opinion, with the time I've put into TF2 and the videos of Overwatch game mechanics that I've seen, TF2 and Overwatch are simply two different games with no basis or need for comparison. If you like TF2, play TF2. If you like Overwatch, play Overwatch. Play the games and enjoy them.

[@wet0wl]

It feels like in most people’s experience, TF2’s learning “curve” is practically a 90° angle. It takes a while but when it clicks, it clicks.

[@aidan4529]

Actually I’d reckon ow starts slow then gets really fast until it suddenly gets at an all time slow where the techs and skills you need take forever and take guiding to develop. Then you reach mastery which I reckon is faster as you know to teach yourself.

[@jeoffvader]

as a juggler/ juggling teacher, i am "loving your juicy analogies"

[@mihailazar2487]

You can't just teach someone TF2 if you try to explain it, it's almost TOO SIMPLE But, to quote Morpheus, "there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path" Many of the things you learn in a tutorial are next to useless in multiplayer ( except for, well, movement and proper usage of weapons and game mechanics) But tutorials and bot practice have a negligible effect on wether or not you get your face blown off shortly after leaving the spawn. The only way to become better if to play the game AND IF I HAD TO DESCRIBE TF2'S LEARNING CURVE, it would resemble a staircase You pick up a class, you make up a temporary play strategy and toy oldy it for a couple of days, perfecting it until it great to its fullest possible local maximum This is really important BECAUSE once you reach that local maximum, YOU GET BORED, and THAT'S A GOOD THING ! Because it forces you to try out another class, and repeat the process ... when you've tried out more classes, you're going to return to a class you've already played and play differently, because the experience you gained makes a difference. I've had a lot of times where I'd try out all weapons and items of a class, and determine which was THE BEST ONE, , the one that suits me the most, the none I'm doing the best with or having the most fun with. Then, after playing other classes, and gaining new insight into the game's core , I've returned to that class with TOTALLY DIFFERENT loadout preferences I've always felt like my skill progress in TF2 went up in steap jumps when I figure something out, and then flat portions where my skill grows really slowly.

[@icaromontoni2608]

fun thing is that th whole gameplay on the video is from tf2, but still youtube has recognized it as overwatch, that upsets me a little :c

[@udith]

I think that's all relative. When all are noobs like us, we are no longer no noob. When all are pros like us, we are no longer pro

[@0bAm3]

Tell me there is another fps where you can shoot piss on your enemies and then do the conga with the enemy team

[@dioxide39]

None

[@burnttacoconspiracy5786]

Paladins is a free Overwatch, Overwatch is an expensive TF2, TF2 is a new Quake, Quake is a multiplayer DOOM, DOOM is a Demon based Wolfenstine.

[@RMJ1984]

Overwatch might have more heroes. But they have a lower skill ceiling, depth and complexity. TF2 goes for high skill ceiling depth and complexity. You cannot just play a class in TF2 in one way, you have play than many many ways thanks to the various loadouts and the best part? you are never forced to switch. Sure classes counter each other, but thanks to the high skill ceiling you can beat any class if you are good enough. TF2 - 2007 was around before Overwatch - 2016 and it will be around long after Overwatch has gone. Nobody is gonna be playing overwatch in 10 years.