Owen Jones vs Alexei Sayle on Antisemitism in Labour

[@alanjackson4028]

Owen can't answer it because he doesn't want to be kicked out of the labour party

[@odiferousmusky1299]

More like he is happy with the salary and status of working for the Guardian. The journalists I respect left the Guardian and took their integrity and self respect with them, such as Glenn Greenwald and Jonathan Cook.

[@ladysingstheblues2285]

Struggling to find a salient point from Owen. Fails to answer questions, rather he tends to waffle on and tends to obfuscate. Still no idea what his actual views are.

[@chrishall6745]

He seems to be more bothered by keeping his circle of friends then any political analysis.

[@markpostgate2551]

Are you saying you have no idea what Owen's actual views are or that Owen has no idea what his actual views are?

[@koont666]

He's a c£nt that's why 😂

[@pipster1891]

@@markpostgate2551 Probably both.

[@lauramartin5579]

Yep and explaining anti-Semitism to a a Jewish man really isn't good optics

[@lauramartin5579]

Owen should listen to Alexei . He might bloody learn something

[@odiferousmusky1299]

Re: Guardian employed Owen Jones: "Its difficult to get a man to understand something, if his salary depends on him not understanding it" - Upton Sinclair

[@wbafc1231]

Owen Jones is a typical guardianista. Loves the sound of his own voice while saying absolutely nothing.

[@duncanpoundcake]

Jones completely avoids answering Alexi's question: Wasn't it overstated? Wasn't it a tactic. He just waffles trying to find a non-answer and falls down intellectual rabbit holes of his own design. Jones has flip flopped for years. He has books to sell and media gigs to do. Like all professional Media Lefties. He waits for the public opinion and makes his move.

[@solimansoliman9806]

Jones is an acceptable voice of the left, bought out by the mainstream to set the boundaries of left debate, and like Norvara Media, is a middle-class leftist.

[@lauramartin5579]

I hope Owen Jones sees this, reflects in his ignorance and (yes) flip flops yet again

[@revol148]

Does anyone care what Own Jones thinks - he's just another Oxford educated Guardian journalist !?

[@johnnaue]

Thank you for illuminating this. I live in the US so not as up on the people involved. I've liked Alexie Sayle as a comedian for a long time and it's affirming and happy that he also has a great political sensitivity. My first knowing of Owen Jones was in a positive light. Less happy is seeing him being so shifty now, but I'm also glad I'm getting to see in person as to why there are negative comments about Owen Jones by people that generally have good takes and pay attention to British politics.

[@FRIDAY8BALL]

I recommend the blogs of Tony Greenstein, Jonathan Cook and Asa Winstanley. Also the David Swift book , A Left for itself.

[@lauramartin5579]

Yes Jones is a bit of a weathercock, as Tony Benn used to call these shapeshifters

[@FRIDAY8BALL]

You have a responsibility to listen but if a person's fears are based around disinformation and irrationality, not actual evidence do you not listen but review and challenge their knowledge, encouraging them to reconsider before giving into fear ?

[@antonyware9887]

WTF is Jones on about at 16:45 ?

[@dazpatreg]

I could never pinpoint what turned me off Owen because I mostly have similar views and politics, but there's just a sort of insincerity about how he talks. Like he's just reciting a Soc and Pol lecture he heard at university.

[@jaffaj23]

Great discussion. Really excellent way of addressing this thorny issue. More of the same please, both of you.

[@djsnoozeyalooze]

Another great video!

[@nickhockings443]

The lived experience of Jewish people is that unless they are >85 years old anti-semitic violence has been rare, taboo to commit, and vigorously prosecuted in the UK their entire lives. Whereas the lived experience of Palestinians is a slow and relentless genocide, backed, shielded and armed by every British government since 1948.

[@lauramartin5579]

Poor Alexei. Owen Jones telling him all about anti semitism. Wow. what a ridiculous person he is at times. Well this is aging beautifully

[@charliecroker6445]

We"ve never seen or heard what actually has been said by people in the Labour party accused of alleged anitsemitism , my own view is that they have spoken out against Israel and their policies , and not the people , there seems to be 2 types of racism antisemitism which is the worst crime in the world and racism against everyone else which is classed as division 2 racism .

[@gillymccyber1927]

I was sceptical about antisemitism inLabour until I saw that members waived Palestinian flags on the Monday after the Hamas invasion; before Israel responded. It’s obvious.

[@antonyware9887]

About Lansman, « I’ve seen the sort of stuff he gets »,the assumption is that this « stuff » is from Labour members.

[@harryc1971]

I was a quiet and shy boy and i worked for this horror of a Jewish solicitor, i was stuck there whilst he bullied me relentlessly for four years - it left me bitter and resentful towards Jewish people (he was the only one i knew at the time) i got over this after a trip to Israel (my Mothers side are of Jewish extraction) but it took years to exorcise that memory. Does this make me racist?

[@louistracy6964]

Thank you. This is a hard subject to get heads around.

[@suzannelooms7658]

OJ doesn't even specify his understanding of the definition of AS.

[@johnwatts8346]

ive always liked alexei until i found he supports corbyn, i now hold him in the same utter disdain i feel towards corbyn himself, and to say corbyn is 'ridiculously honourable' is beyond laughable, corbyn has no honour.

[@antonyware9887]

Jones talks about and validates some Jewish peoples lived experiences but not others.

[@ladysingstheblues2285]

OJ. Why use six words to put across an argument when you could use thirty three? Almost to the point of incoherence. There are three points to make in this debate and he manages to miss all three.

[@beebleknievel2603]

Owen Jones needs to listen to Michael Parenti conspiracy and class power

[@deborahgordon1812]

What Jones did was shift the goalposts-to the left

[@ladysingstheblues2285]

Jones's goal posts tend to cover the whole pitch depending on expedience. He is increasingly proving himself to be centrist.

[@haberjennings475]

I find it rather predictable this. Always happens in a cult when it starts to fade it turns to attack itself. The ideology is so strong in their tiny little heads.

[@Jellyroll66]

Alexei is the best

[@lauramartin5579]

He can't "walk and chew gum" as he puts it. Or he would be able to support Jewish ppl AND Palestinians.

[@antonyware9887]

« Some of the Jewish people close to me » ie. Some of my best friends are ***** ie. I’m clued in

[@pipster1891]

Owen Jones is paid for articles in The Guardian. It's amazing what and how you write can be shaped by what the source of your income wants. Unapologetic pro-Corbyn articles wouldn't have got you paid and published.

[@antonyware9887]

Ah so your antisemitic ! 😂 As the narrative goes

[@pakelly99]

Conscious or Freudian slip by Alexei referring to comedians who historically vocally aligned themselves with left wing ideals, dropping them subsequently, because, they have to make a living… If consciously, that was supremely subtle trolling. If from a subconscious… still so parallel to Owen Jones own position… that had to smart.

[@fidomusic]

Interesting discussion.

[@spinynorman8217]

Both mad but at least Alexie can make me laugh.

[@papaann4]

Dear God! Is this a Comedy sketch?

[@markpostgate2551]

I ask myself the question why are identitarians drawn towards the centre? Which is odd because the conservatives will refer to identitarians (if they are left wing identitarians that is; I acknowledge there is right wing identitarianism too like ethnonationalists or theocrats) as "the extreme left" but in reality they are usually at the more neoliberal end of the left - occupying the centrist position. I found telling Owen's quip about "goy-splaining to a Jewish person", just following saying "how Jewish people have explained this to me". He has no philosophical autonomy. On any issue there is a demographic permitted opinions; naturally they will be diverse because every demographic is diverse (which is something a non-racist in the sense derived from how I understand racism, should readily recognise) and anyone outside that demographic is not permitted their own opinion on which one is right, because they are not demographically qualified! So an identitarian needs to be told what to think on most issues that can be framed as identitarian, and most issues can be framed as identitarian. So he is inevitably at the whim of propagandists. Is he realistically going to personally do surveys on what Ukrainian refugees think about the war or what gay men think about monkey pox and so on and so on; a different group for every issue. No, so he'd be relying on the media to inform him of what the consensus is within the relevant demographical "community". So he has surrendered his philosophical autonomy. Alexi doesn't care if Jones is a gentile or not; he'd prefer he wasn't so bloody wishy washy. My conclusion is that "walk and chew gum at the same time" means agree with everyone who is Jewish (in the case of this topic, but other demographics would apply to other issues) even those who are diametrically opposed to each other, and besides I have to because ideologically I will not permit myself to disagree with any of them. How can their heads not explode with the failure to resolve any issue in their head? That isn't all there is to it, but this comment is long enough already, but I think it is one of a number of factors as to why identitarianism pulls people to the right.

[@markpostgate2551]

Case in point at about 12 minutes where Jones is squirming with indecision. There is an entire diverse demographic and he won't permit himself to disagree with a single one of them so he hates to be pinned down to any firm statements. Case in point. 31:15 presumably then that's a confession; if there has been no exaggeration of anti-Semitism but Owen Jones has been accused then Owen Jones must be anti-Semitic, although of course, less anti-Semitic than he would be if he denied it! I know if you criticize identity politics you get seen as a right winger but we blew a once in a lifetime chance of a decent Socialist Labour leader because of identity politics. The harm it has done is not trivial.

[@lauramartin5579]

In a nutshell, Owen Jones used to have some reasonably well thought out political analysis but, for years now, he doesn't seem to have had an original thought

[@poesie6279]

Jones is a very clever, interesting journalist, but he’s also not completely honest. In the past he betrayed JC, although I have not read his book explaining his criticism of JC yet. He’s become a bit of a political celebrity and few people can live up to having true integrity. (His Mum is a very interesting person, Ruth Aylett her book ‘Living with Robots’.)

[@parati1309]

Amyl Owen

[@mossychops]

Own in the Jewish Defence League?

[@mossychops]

Tafilalt Eurovision Song Contest, Liverpool, #97 ( Phoenix dactylifera.) (Liverbird) Bondi Vet?

[@mossychops]

Peter Tatchell and Daesh?

[@mossychops]

Wolcott.

[@HumanProgress]

Antisemitism is different from anti Zionism. Antisemites don't want JEWS to have their own state in their ancient homeland. Anti Zionists don't want jews to have THEIR OWN STATE in their ancient homeland.

[@AK-np4rp]

Huh?

[@TheYopogo]

There are several million people living between the Jordan River and the Eastern Mediterranean coast. In Israel/Palestine. Some are Jewish, some are not. The Israeli government effectively controls that entire territory. That society should be governed as a multicultural democracy, not through brutal racist apartheid like it is now.

[@HumanProgress]

@@TheYopogo 😂 You sound like you've been fed a one-sided diet of hatred. Without even mentioning the 80 year war effort to destroy Israel waged by bigots, Jew haters and Islamic extremists, you immediately sound untrustworthy.

[@TheYopogo]

@@HumanProgress It's the only possible solution which does not involve Israel permanently committing crimes against humanity. You cannot commit the crime of apartheid 'in self defence'. What are you suggesting is going to happen? That if Israel stops committing the crime of apartheid it will get immediately invaded by Egypt and Jordan? This is ridiculous. I'm trying to get serious about a human rights based solution, are you?

[@HumanProgress]

@@TheYopogo 😂 Criticising Israel in good faith is fine, (not much of it about.) It’s those antisemites/anti Zionists that want Israel destroyed that’s always been the problem….. Much more than half of the Jews of Israel (+64%) come from non Western countries like Morocco, Yemen, India, Ethiopia etc, not Europe. The large Arab minority of Israeli citizens both Christian and Muslim and others are all from the Middle East. Every Israeli born in the last 80 years, atheist, Christian, Muslim, Jew etc etc all of them, are also obviously all from the Middle East, yet only anti semites and anti Zionists want Israel destroyed. Why is that?