P2W & The New State of Throne & Liberty (My Honest Thoughts & Feedback)

[@KanonXO]

NCsoft has just released some big updates to this, link: kzbin.info/www/bejne/nmGoeWpvitdqaMk | Covering MMO content 6 days a week @ twitch.tv/kanonxo - come follow me!

[@Corusame]

I really respect that you always tell it like it is with these P2W games. Many content creators won't do it because they don't want to lose sponsorship opportunities. I'm glad there are still people like you that side with the community instead of the money. Great vid!

[@maxwellalves3881]

All games are p2w

[@Corusame]

@@maxwellalves3881 not true at all

[@maxwellalves3881]

@@Corusametell me what game is not p2w?

[@Corusame]

@@maxwellalves3881 to name just a few: 1. The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt 2. The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild 3. Dark Souls III 4. Bloodborne 5. Hades 6. Elden Ring 7. Nier: Automata 8. Persona 5 9. Hollow Knight 10. Divinity: Original Sin 2 11. Cyberpunk 2077 12. Dragon's Dogma: Dark Arisen 13. Monster Hunter: World 14. Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice 15. Disco Elysium

[@Kanti]

I tolerate p2w to a degree but with this update they kinda crossed the line for me, i feel like it will only get worse with time.

[@baska-]

100%. These companies are too greedy and too desperate to make as much money as possible before the game inevitably dies, unfortunately.

[@FelixJMK]

@@baska- The real problem is that this tactic works. Because players cant control their impulse to spend, when they are faced with enough of these progression gates. Tempt them long enough and they wanna hop over the gate by swiping.

[@Impuracle]

I tolerance grammatical errors.

[@baska-]

@@FelixJMK yeah, actually many of these companies pay psychologists to help them find ways to encourage people from different economic classes to spend as much as they can so that from small dolphins up to huge whales feel the urge to spend. I have swiped in the past, but I've learnt my lesson and will never give money to any P2W game in my life.

[@RandomUserYTisFailing]

​@@FelixJMK Who has the money for this shit though? Most people on unemployment, rents the highest they've been in decades, food prices through the roof, tons of people almost in poverty level limits and yet gaming companies are still releasing gacha games and making BANK! Off who? Who the hell is spending all their money on a damn f2p game? No way the streamers/whales are spending that much to not care about the 99% of people... Blows my mind. People on Mabinogi (10k active players, most afk) have told me they have spent $500+ dollars A WEEK on gachapon to get stronger. WHY? HOW? WTF?

[@Avalack-g7c]

NCSoft and AGS need to hear that guy. He really likes this game and knows what to do to make TL better in the Global version

[@deadmanwalkin23]

Dude they are here for quick money... once TL is done there will be a next MMO.

[@skeithaseoxd]

they don't care, they think they're always right and no one knows better than them, and they made new world lmao, and people like them never learn, forget about tl just wait for something else (i've been waiting for years)

[@liandesert9305]

They do not hear their 20 years old game Lineage 2... with the same p2w systems, of course that they are not going to listend to their new game now, they know the system works.

[@blacklord3212]

dude if u ever worked in development or even tried you will know that the scums who designed this system know exactly how it works and how long it takes , they are extremely dirty with their mindset , and even if they change this system responding to the feedback , this worries me about the future of the game , I wouldn't want to invest a year or more in a game that has this mindset of developers , such a waste , I know how talented the developers who made this game and they are extremely knowledgable with unreal engine because I myself worked on unreal engine projects , but honestly these talents are so wasted with these convuluted systems because of a scum company ....

[@HadleyMarshall]

Wont be a better mmo for another 20 years. Best best is to find an indie mmo instead

[@AmaiaCrystal]

Man, I was so scared because I was 100% going to play the shit out of this game. Beta was so fun and couldn't wait, I also don't mind spending a little money and dont mind games being P2W to some degree, but now I am saved, I was really hoping NCsoft would fuck up somehow because I reallyyyyy didn't want to get addicted to a new MMO that honestly was amazing. THANKS NCSOFT!

[@Tory-JJ]

Mhm

[@NickNeutron]

Im sorry, i love T&L, but why in the name of holy gamers does gear leveling systems have to be this complex. Is there really anyone out there that thinks this is fun gameplay? this is going to be such a chore, not just to do but to learn all these systems.

[@baska-]

Exactly. The reason why they make it complex is to add more P2W, clearly. But let's say in the case of a non-P2W game, it's very important to balance complexity and simplicity. You don't want an overly simple game that is boring but too much complexity can be just as bad as you've described.

[@nelsonuzumaki4130]

talking from a player who comes from playing BDO for a long time, i could say this is fine, at least the gearing isnt that meantlly breaking,

[@amcdonald7479]

You mean like every mmo since 2001? Clearly uve never did Korean MMOs.

[@RandomUserYTisFailing]

Koreans find it fun. That's why they play it. We do not, but companies still keep trying the Asian market idea since it'll make them more money short and long term with people swiping for fun for two months then leaving.

[@1991sub]

complex? lmao

[@A.Steeeve]

Thanks Kanon! 🙏 I hope devs are still following your content.

[@Leozinhozd]

events should give u a current to trade in event shop directly for runes/hammers/stones. That's a great way to assemble F2P on events

[@TheARESxGOD]

P2W game gets more P2W no way, who could've seen this coming ?

[@H4d3s]

dk why developers dont understand that a good game dont need paywalls. Guild Wars 2 did it right

[@rjsaripada7880]

Gw2 is my main game and I love it to bits, it just sucks that I can't get my pvp fix there as GW2 doesn't have regional servers for us over in Asia.

[@jacksheldon8566]

except for skyscale grinding. never finished mine.

[@snowdropfox5754]

@@jacksheldon8566 You literally get it basically free in SotO and with minimal effort. Same with Warclaw in Janthir Wilds. And Skyscale was never behind a paywall, just to set the record straight.

[@jacksheldon8566]

@@snowdropfox5754 you need to pay gems to access it unless you got it for free when it released. I wouldn't call taking hours of fetching hundreds of objects around, then doing boring miniquests in all of Tyria, with a wiki opened, "minimal effort."

[@ryanseaman9802]

​@@jacksheldon8566sky scale grind wasn't that bad .. Got mine in 4 days and that's through living world method... Soto one takes even less time

[@charalamposkallimanis9609]

Thank you for this video man. Your time spend into this end game version is massive for me. Personaly as a casual Dad I do not mind play the game and reach end game in like 1 month instead of a week. But if I am about to do the same thing over and over or forged to do a specific thing every fken day like in Lost Ark I am gonna get borred very soon.

[@MrZuko2]

THIS IS NOT A HATE COMMENT, I ONLY WANT TO UPDATE THE CONTENT OF THE VIDEO WITH THE NEW INFORMATION POST PATCHES. This video is partially correct. He says this game is P2W, which is true, like all the other MMOs nowadays. However, this one allows the F2P player to reach maximum power if we do it correctly. NOTE: Kanon has been using money on the game to test whether it is pay-to-win in his streams. The thing is that he was able to buy all of that because of 3 major things. 1) The F2P player has already reached the gear he bought; if you need it, you will not sell it, at least not for a low price like it is happening right now on the hyper boost server where he plays. 2) It is a hyperboost server. This means that all the loot on sale is easier to get, and with more offers than demand, you have a lower price. Economic 101 3) You have experienced Korean players who know which items get and where. Honestly, I think it will take a lot of time to have a market this developed as it is on the Korean servers because the players must learn the mechanics and where to get specific items. At the same time, the game limits the resources you need to sell items on the Action House. An example of this is the limit of 50 enchanted ink per week or the limit of 500 extraction stones per week. This system of action house benefits the game by getting P2W players in the later stages of the game and benefits F2P players at the same time by getting some Lucent (Paid currency) for free. However, we already know the existence of the hyper boosting in Korea. That server was made to allow F2P players to reach the max cap before major updates FOR FREE. That way, the gap that Kanon is talking about at the end of the video is reduced for each patch. At 2:50, That dagger could be better; it even has the blue runes at max level. At the same time, it is accurate that it takes a ton of time to full a weapon Tier 2, but based on Korean servers, you have ten months before the following major update... so you have time to get it. At 2:57, This is partially fake; you still have to upgrade your skills with books to get the maximum power. At 5:46, What he is saying is real, but you need to know that those resonance stones are really easy to get. The point is that once you get Purple items, you will partially forget some blue ones. Those blue ones should be transmuted to get many resonance stones. For example, with a Tier 2 transmutation, you get five resonance stones. You can get that level in many ways, but you do not need to use purple items for that. At 7:08, He talks about transmutation and how to get the items to transmute. That is partially true; the primary source of resources for transmutation is the open-world dungeons. This is because you can use the transmutation with other items that are not equipment, too, and it is usually more cost-efficient. This is because the Marind has few uses now. At 12:42, Just for reference, with 55 runes, green and blue (which can be gotten from weekly missions, for example, but mainly dungeon, as he said in the video, with two runes per run), you will get 280-902 runes fragments. At 12:54, This system was refactored. The amount doesn't increase per roll (See patch note 2024-07-30). At 22:48, He is not taking into consideration the existence and purpose of the hyperboost server. At the same time, the economy of the game will not be so developed at lunch, so the P2W player will need to play the game to get those items or wait until the F2P player sells those items (probably at high and crazy prices at the beginning). However, at the end of the game, he is right when we have a developed economy. The P2W will benefit from reaching the higher tiers of equipment way faster than the F2P. Still, at that point, it does not matter if you are not a new player who plans to play F2P, and if you are a new F2P player, the best course of action for you is to wait for the hyper boost server and the migrate from it to a global server. At 24:12, this does not make any sense because if there is not an F2P player at the cap, then how is the P2W player going to buy those items? Remember that all the players are capped on the limit of contract, dungeon token, abyss points, daily and weekly limits, etc. At 25:27, we have the same issue here: the P2W player will first need the F2P player to reach that gear to put it on sale. Otherwise, they can not buy it. At 27:55, He is entirely correct on this; NCsoft should change the rewards for each event, to be honest

[@LiquidGas0]

Thanks for clearing all this up! Big difference really excited for global launch

[@justinpatrick9249]

so f2p should just hold there shit and not sell it making p2w people have to play the game? makes sense to meee

[@MrZuko2]

@@justinpatrick9249 yep, the only thing that you get selling to other players is lucent... So you can play the game without selling to other players if you are the most communist player lol

[@GodHexe]

when i see games getting ruined or messed with, it makes me appreciate the first descendant devs even more.

[@UnrivaledPiercer]

As an old school Lineage 2 player, I am okay with a long grind. I have many good memories of 24+ hour groups of just grinding the same room in an area. However if the grind isn't fun, then you have a problem. Hopefully they can just expand the rune system to allow it to be more globally available to the game map and with more farming areas it will open up a lot more. Making the most use of the world map at end game should be any MMO's goal. You want players everywhere, doing everything, not stuck in one spot because its the only place to get something. Speaking of Lineage 2 again, since everything originally (not now, the new "game" is honestly horrible.) was attainable by players and everything was tradable between players. It made it so the best path to end game was honestly just to play, literally anywhere. Grind exp, get drops, sell drops, buy better gear, rinse repeat. It didn't really matter where you were in the game, as long as you could play efficiently. I really hope that T&L can find that balance, and make the entire game fun and rewarding no matter what content you're doing. Everything needs to come from everywhere, just maybe balance the rates. Make field mobs drop useful things, sure the rates would be lower and bots would need dealt with better, but then you would even see players roaming around the overworld areas more. The goal should be to make the world feel alive, not dead unless you go into a dungeon. Especially since the challenge dungeons are instanced, that's the wrong direction they should be going.

[@warr39]

În the old L2 most ppl could not swipe for power, at least no to this degree. A long grind is ok if most of the ppl around you have to do it aswell. Right now în tnl this is no longer the case.

[@gintautaskatkus5577]

As an another old school l2 player, comparing l2 and this...Yeah it looks modern and maybe people will have vibe for this game, but it will die after 2months in EU and will stay in Korea, like rest new mmo. I miss freedom in games when you could choose ur own path, how you want and where to grind. l2 had class quest until then you can decide where you want to lvl up, pet quest, nobless quest, crafting, spoiling and managing your adena business with your dwarf. Its huge impact why l2 was best made mmo ever. RIP l2

[@luizresende]

You forgetting that L2 was sub back in the day. So anyone willing to pay a sub, was willing to grind as long that was the only way to do it. Thats not the case with TL

[@-Ryu-]

The essence of l2 was bots and rmt, here will be the same

[@romaroalte2645]

​@@-Ryu-yes, I believe this company will not suddenly change, look at L2 and even my heart brokening L2Classic - bots as many as i never seen in any mmorpg, spam rmt in chat to crazy degree, dead locations, p2w swipe, autofarm - they called it "classic", that was the last spit to the face of true Lineage fans. I don't believe T&L will not have bots, rmt and crazy p2w EVENTUALLY. The predator carefully testing the water and I know him well.

[@aBait.]

You can also gamba for bis t2 gear or straight up buy lithographs on AH while previously you had to farm them yourself, so another limit for whales got lifted. At least you can grind challenge dungeons for lucent without limits which is big for f2p.

[@FelixJMK]

Problem with that is the fact that most groups ask for gearscores that f2ps dont have, since they wanna clear fast. Generally, challenge dungeon groups want you to have fully traited t2 gear. F2Ps hardly have that.

[@aBait.]

@@FelixJMK Thats on KR, I'm sure requirements will be lower on west start.

[@elentb2261]

@@FelixJMKif u play kr server frm the start f2p full trait t2 already

[@JeffKeens]

Uh this sounds kinda bad and will turn off a lot of western players

[@h3x_bg]

First Time using Kanon as Podcast. I can recommend :) Generally speaking, the rune system has potential. I don't think it's a bad thing that you should gamble for the rune slot, but a fair chance would be nice. (1/3%) The cheeky and worst thing is that the hammers get more expensive with every failure. I can actually live with the rest.

[@justinasbar]

Grind is real even on hyperboost. So on global open it will be even harder along with p2w being much stronger. I really dont like that developers are adding different layers of p2w, to make it look as less p2w as possible - multiple currencies, battlepasses, stuff you can/cant buy "directly". Instead of making all this mess, they should simply add full traits/runes items to the shop, since it is already like that, just hidden under few tabs.

[@buddylord3276]

For sure this is a fun game, but if you're planning to compete in any real way, you gotta swipe hard it seems like.

[@blacklord3212]

@@buddylord3276 before this update if u wanted to compete you could compete it just needed very tiny more time , but now to compete the gap is so huge you won't even be close to swiper for months since there are too many systems , ncsoft being ncsoft as always , start nice and drop an update that fucks up literally everything

[@justinasbar]

I agree, if you dont take this game seriously, you will be fine. P2W element is only important for tryhards, who will compete for points in scoreboard.

[@jackynikola]

Swipe is must if you wanna pvp. Even on hyper boost you are just getting rolled like nothing without swiping.

[@Synzoa]

Well now we know why the guy left. And look what is happening... no one there to pull back the reins anymore. NC soft is going to kill another game for the west before it even comes out.

[@oAazo]

Rune Hammer cost after each failure just got removed. It now costs a permanent base amount after every failure

[@MMO-SKY]

remove failure feature and remove hammers from the cash shop.

[@coldbreezeproductions]

Any game that has a fail to upgrade feature is p2w dog shit ​@@MMO-SKY

[@hby7768]

this is my favorite mmo that came out of Korea. It maybe my 3rd favorite MMO of all time, I've been playing non stop since NA beta 2-3 weeks ago

[@romaroalte2645]

The other two are BDO and L2?

[@barneyman1574]

rip my f2p dream.

[@randysanjaya5607]

lol f2p player but always complain developer this developer that you guys always hoping developer helps what you want but you didnt support them with 0 money spend you think developer didnt have employe? how developer pay employe salary if all player like you guys f2p imagine you are the developer you build really full effort on 1 game and then all your player is f2p play you guys ,how you pay your employe? you build game of course you want profit its just a game stop complaning pay2win if you broke get a work we play game for fun

[@zsoca921]

​@@randysanjaya5607 So that means, if something is free, they have to design and implement systems that looks unfair without pity system? I will tell you a big secret: Skins. That will do the trick. You can design and implement new systems without making it purposely P2W and unfair. If F2P means this, then make it pay to play.

[@mirsi007]

@@randysanjaya5607 Look at Apex Legends. Y different kind of game, but still free and not p2w. Also its most proffitable EA game.. Skins is the way, or just let us pay for game like WoW or Diablo. I want to play against players who put in the same effort as me. Not lazy rich p2w noobs.

[@randysanjaya5607]

@@zsoca921 in TL skin can buy with lucent lucent can we get from dungeon item that we sell in Auction house come on people complain about pity system but never support developer who make the game with spending a bit all MMORPG is pay2win XD just play its a fun game bro

[@nil7118]

​@randysanjaya5607 i work and im well off, this is nasty asian p2w shit we dont like in the west, keep it in asia, il pay to buy the game or a sub, but dont try to use a shop to cheat me.

[@devanedwards5986]

Shout out to you for not keeping the Maron's internally for your guild or hiding it, you're a real one for that bro

[@ENAYE]

i hope they dont keep adding different TYPES of vertical progression because for me, in a game like lost ark, multiple types of progression really do lead to burn out. gems, engravings, accessories, set bonus, honing, elixers, transcendence, cards, weapon/armor quality, and now the new honing AND NOW tier 4... and the fact that all are behind an RNG/pity system... it's honestly too much... i hope T&L stays clear of the mistakes smilegate has done with lost ark and rather focuses on nailing down a form of vertical progression that keeps the player engaged

[@brettlewis2900]

The rune system is a huge turn off. I can get the rng of rolling sockete part but it should be more in the lines of if you have one socket filled out with lets say def. The next 2 can only roll atk/sup until all 3 slots are filled out. Once going back for the order of things it also can only roll one of the 2 other slots that you would need to complete a "rune word" bonus. Yes it would still be a major grind to get the order you want but it also ensures that you will always have a run word active on rerolls.

[@cosmo7291]

Skill Specializations unlocks at level 25 even though the game says Lvl30

[@brandoncue3013]

RUNE LEVELS IS EXACTLLY WHAT AMAZON DID WITH NEW WORLD THAT KILLED THE GUY. THIS STUPID INVISIBLE GEAR SCORE GRIND CALCULATOR THAT YOU COULDNT SEE UNTIL THEY FINALLY PATCHED IT WENT 99% OF THE PLAYERS QUIT. WHAT A JOKE

[@Rex_Smashington]

I'm already over it and it hasn't even released yet. The systems shouldn't be more complicated than the actual gameplay. There are only this many hoops to jump through because of the monetization. The more obstacles they put in the way, the more likely someone is to give up and pull out their wallet. Hard pass on launch.

[@DaBroughtHD]

I am still a very big believer that taking the P2W out of the game and charging a 30 euro minimum subscription fee is the only viable option for a live service game in 2024. Pay to play is the way to go, not free to play masked as a total cash grab. It hurts my soul to see such a beautiful game be a dead on arrival just because of misunderstanding Global markets. But yeah, it is NCSoft after all. edit. How do you almost have 1000 usd in Lucent lol?

[@CorlaxCory]

Seriously I wish it was just a damn sub…

[@DaBroughtHD]

@@CorlaxCory It seems very unlikely going by the fact that they recently appointed the ex-CEO of Pearl Abyss NA for the new NCSOFT NA branch...

[@DaBroughtHD]

@@CorlaxCory Fun facts: today I found out that the Public Investment Fund of Saudi-Arabia acquired a 9,6% stake in NCSoft as of 2022, which is the 2nd highest stake after the co-founder who holds 11,97%. The National pension service of Korea holds an additional 6,298% stake. A total of 18% of the developer's shares are held by economies, not even private firms. In 2024, the new co-ceo, Byungmoo Park, joined the ranks as well, previously the head of a private equity firm, VIG partners. As icing on the cake, NCsoft decided to restructure and add an American branch to their structures with a newly appointed CEO, Jeonghee Jin, the now ex-CEO of Pearl Abyss, the company behind BDO. This leads me to believe that the game will last because it has to, NCSoft has spent too much money and too many shareholders are at stake in this corporate shitfest. Coincidentally, P2W will never disappear from any games made by NCSoft due to the costs involved with making these games and the stakeholder's incentives to do better than break even. Thank you for reading my essay.

[@DaBroughtHD]

@@CorlaxCory @CorlaxCory Fun facts: today I found out that the Public Investment Fund of Saudi-Arabia acquired a 9,6% stake in NCSoft as of 2022, which is the 2nd highest stake after the co-founder who holds 11,97%. The National pension service of Korea holds an additional 6,298% stake. A total of 18% of the developer's shares are held by economies, not even private firms. In 2024, the new co-ceo, Byungmoo Park, joined the ranks as well, previously the head of a private equity firm, VIG partners. As icing on the cake, NCsoft decided to restructure and add an American branch to their structures with a newly appointed CEO, Jeonghee Jin, the now ex-CEO of Pearl Abyss, which is the company behind BDO. This leads me to believe that the game will last because it has to, NCSoft has spent too much money and too many shareholders are at stake in this corporate shitfest. Coincidentally, P2W will never disappear from any games made by NCSoft due to the costs involved with making these games and the stakeholder's incentives to do better than break even. We are coming closer to 1/5 shares being held by public investment funds from Saudi-Arabia and South-Korea than we are to 1/6, that's just abysmal. Thank you for reading my essay, I am in shambles and in absolute dismay to my own discoveries.

[@louiseQue]

I haven't played T&L. Though I've played a few games from NCsoft. I remember Blade & Soul, release was great. Lots of people, it wasn't much p2w at the beginning. It eventually went sideways, players relied more on p2w. Was hoping to play this game honestly but knowing how NCsoft will do p2w. Probably not :(

[@HadleyMarshall]

I was going to definitely play this on September 17th but if getting high tier gear is going to be a heavy time sink and money sink, nah chief this ain’t it. I’m out 😂

[@drumroll2716]

Didn't they just announce that hammer requirements don't increase after each failure?

[@coldbreezeproductions]

But you can still fail, that's my issue. I don't want to farm all day and fail to upgrade, waste of time like lost ark.

[@boon6848]

this is why i stopped playing hyperboost, i dont want to grind and feel burn out once the global releases. sht they should just give back subscription base games.

[@vilgefortz9816]

I remember when in MMORPGs if you wanted an upgrade you killed some mobs and they dropped you an item that was better than your previous item.

[@DEEV1991]

Fairly objective and constructive take. Keeping any multiplayer game with any level of competition fair and sticking to cosmetic customizations as means of monetization will go a long way. They just need to be smart and provide different brackets for customization for each budget level.

[@ShinmotoGaming]

Half way through the video and i already get the feeling that this game is going to be a shitshow of daily chores, just to have fun in suday PvP with your friends ...

[@-Ryu-]

you can do pvp pretty much when you want but yes, is a tremendous amount of grind and not a fun one

[@ShinmotoGaming]

@@-Ryu- I mean, sure, i can have my face smashed in by P2W Dudes, but that doesn't sound like something anybody wants to do, just because you CAN. My point is that i know this system from other Korean games, in which they push this intentionally to more or less "force" you into P2W, because the gap between you and the guys beating you will get bigger and bigger and i am not talking about a skill issue, which would be a totally different discussion. I am just wondering how much of a benefit people will get out of P2W TL compared to casual F2P Players, who also want to do some PvP. The PvE side of the game doesn't concern me at all, because i don't care anybody P2W in PvE against me, but the PvP side sounds really concerning.

[@brettlewis2900]

It will die like most games do after 6 month to a year. All the f2p players will move on to something else and all the p2w players will stick around to beat up on one another because they have so much time+money invested into the game they can't justify quiting until the game has nothing left to offer. It sucks that this is the path most mmos take now instead of ensuring a wide players base loves the base game and wants to keep playing so in turn they buy battle passes/skins/etc. They much rather take a chance on forcing a smaller % of players to spend major money to be on top and they do this knowing whales will always exist.

[@ShinmotoGaming]

@@brettlewis2900 Yeah, that's what i am thinking myself. Obviously this path makes them more money, because otherwise they wouldn't even be thinking about going this way, but we will see. To me it's just the PvP that makes a game fun, so if i either have to grind too much to enjoy PvP - which i am not sure about at this point, because of the PvP Events - or fall behind too much, because people swiping, i won't stay for long.

[@FelixJMK]

I think you are right -.- At least on the korean servers, this applies. Now it remains to be seen how the western servers will go

[@Paolini_18]

The only thing that matters is how fun and engaging the endgame daily/weekly loop is. People cry all day about p2w but if the game is good everyone will play

[@dan1991woopwoop]

It is good. Best MMO iv tried in a while tbf

[@darkohboy9648]

@@dan1991woopwoop only if you a pvp player pve content is super limited

[@Endaethia]

If the company engages p2w a lot, then this will game will end up the same as the other mmo games that lost their reputation very fast

[@baska-]

I'll come back to this comment in 12 months and say "this comment didn't age well".

[@dan1991woopwoop]

@@darkohboy9648 i am a pve player. Ur welcome for all the healz 😉 its not even a year old and its got more PvE than alot of MMO's that have been out way longer. But yes the main part of the game is the endgame PvP.

[@elismartinez2407]

So, don't touch this system until they improve it? got it.

[@diaboliquedia4300]

You HAVE to engage with the system otherwise playing the game is pointless. So basically it's don't touch the game until they improve it.

[@ifeawosika966]

​@@diaboliquedia4300 game is dead with this system. Rng layer on rng layer

[@RandomUserYTisFailing]

If you ignore the system you won't be able to do anything lol this game is flopping in NA 100% like Lost Ark.

[@Dkohltje]

@@RandomUserYTisFailingno it wont 😂 its much better than ark

[@paintspot1509]

Just don't touch this game

[@LostArkLover]

3:45, So true. While, Lost ark was uber p2w with more shit to power up! The cap reach in T&L is great even as a f2p.

[@irzanu]

Hey Kanon, Quick question: When talking about events at the end, with them giving one rune vs doing dungeons that give multiple, does the system that calculates rune level increases do it per roll or per rune? For example, for dungeons, you said that it gives 30-50 runes. Does the system calculate rune level increases for each rune in that stack, or does it roll once to see if your rune level went higher and then rewards you with those 30-50 runes of that level? Asking because if the rune level is calculated once, and you get the full stack at the increased level, then for a daily grind session, you want to do as many events that reward 1 rune, so you can roll for the rune level increase and then, at the end of the day, you do one dungeon run to try to increase it one more time. If its the opposite, then I don-t see why levels 15-25 would take a long time, since if you're getting 30-50 runes, and each rune has a 65% chance to increase your level, you should be at lvl 25 rune level in no time, with about 2 dungeon runs. Makes sense?

[@-liketv]

Hello friends, my name is Master Deadly, I am a veteran MMO player, started with Ultima Online, and last game was NW, been top player in few MMO and hoping to join a big and strong guild in TNL. Team player and also leader of few gank squads. I am east server player. I hope this message reach leader of a clans. Bought early access to TNL.

[@Klannahar]

Increasing hammer cost on fail is the most retarded system i ever see XD Did play with mmo where socket fail mean it remove 1 existing socket from the item, but success rates were much higher for it, and u could boost it as free to play by feeding 5 trash gem in above that u had the cash shop socket talismans. In other hand items could drop with socket as well so u could get a full socket item for free from mobs and u were not gated on how much u can farm / day. P2W players can farm runes much faster cause full T2 gear, full trait team vs less geared player. Also dimantle runes the amount of fragments u get is bit messed up. lvl 1 blue rune give same as lvl 10 blue what is not fun. Edit: Archeage had fishing contest event and it was fun :D

[@BlackLyondreamworks]

The thing about lost Arks pay to win structure is that if you don't do it it hurts the players around you... it's fucked up the way they did it.... bdo it's more pay for convenience and the more whales the better the in-game free to play economy ironically enough.... we won't know how bad this is until 5 years later

[@CorlaxCory]

I think there’s so much speculation but we really don’t know how NA will be implemented until it comes out for sure

[@GodFromNorway]

Are people surprised lol. It's what NCsoft has ALWAYS been doing. Make people think game is fair > people get attached to it after investing 1000+ hours > make game pay2win > milk the players that are too attached at this point and don't want to quit

[@rankyb8088]

How about the mid teir money spenders? You kinda were speaking in absoultes. Free vs whales. Games inherently shouldn't be free. Your expected to spend some sort of money

[@Ricardo-pb7kc]

well you will be in the midle you will dominate over the free and be dominated by the whales. When game start die and people start quit by burn out first the free people will quit, after that the midle pack ( dolphins, mid tier ) and for last whales will jump ship. The point of this game and all other KR MMORPG is put difficulties/grind etc for encourage people spend in the shop, people that spend less will get tired faster, and because this is a pvp game many will quit when start feel useless and just a meat shield in the pvp for the whales.

[@barncagkanyldrm4618]

in these kind of games being mid tier money spender only wastes ur money man because you don't really gain any power

[@Monkeyman5550]

If your advertising a game as free to play then you should not expect to spend anything.. Thats litterally what the name means dude wtf you are on

[@rankyb8088]

@@Monkeyman5550 those poor workers making the game sure as hell didn't work for free. What r u on

[@chowizard3759]

Hammers have been patched already. No further increase after failure. They're also refunding players who already used hammers on the previous increased cost failure mechanic. thats a W imo.

[@coldbreezeproductions]

Copium, failing to upgrade don't belong in games.

[@chowizard3759]

@@coldbreezeproductions lol tell that to BDO, MapleStory, Aion, Lineage II, lost ark, Ragnarok Online...

[@HideFromJesus]

So the korean patch is out. And they changed the rune system with the cost increase.they will also compensate all hammers “lost” during the time of the first patch and tommorow 7th of august i think.

[@sebastienammirati8161]

I was wondering about Pvp. Do you know if there is or will be a PvP rank system? Ranking 1 v 1, Ranking 3 v 3, having rewards based on your rank, and will you be able to Pvp based on your equipment Tier etc.? I'm not sure about the future of Pvp in the game? Thanks again for your video!

[@mecpie]

It's non stop pvp man play on Korea u don't need Korean ID anymore and see yourself 🤣 everywhere u go u pvp most of the Time there is arena aswell

[@mecpie]

But it's all about gear you won't do shit against someone whit better gear like nothing nada 👀

[@sebastienammirati8161]

​@@mecpie Hey Thank you Mecpie for your reply, I'm playing FFXIV right now but the PVP is pretty awful, I kinda miss the Pvp in WoW (BG, Arena etc.) you know with objectives, and the wild PvP of L2. I pre-ordered T&L but I was wondering if the Pvp is good? Ranking, Objectives, Rewards etc.

[@nacari0]

Well this was a surprise, and kinda killed the vibe for me. Thanks for the headsup. Dont rly like the overly focus on having to grind dungs at endgame for runes.

[@eipebpeax]

It is clear that they want to revamp to make it more P2W for koreea server in order to get more players there, but will be not good for west servers

[@paintspot1509]

They know they won't get any more players. They need to milk the few players they have because the game is dead

[@spriggy5176]

I want to love this game, so many ups and downs, not sure where i'll land on launch.

[@Arkades9]

Yeah, I'm feeling the same way. Unless AGS makes huge changes for the initial release here (which we know they won't) I'm probably out.

[@F4cebreaker]

Hey, Kanon! Can you please enlighten me if weapon masteries works when you have the weapon selected as your secondary? For example as SnA+GS do I need to manually switch to GS when using GS skills in order to get GS masteries to work (+100 heavy strike for example) and vice versa, or does it switch masteries automatically when you use skills?

[@cali4806]

Bro just make it a subscription system and make everything grindable.

[@Xhotic]

This better be the reason it got delayed, these new systems and life skills, M+ dungeons better be in the game DAY ONE on Oct 1st.... im hyped for the game and i hope Amazon brings these features fast so we can keep up with the KR servers and were not behind like a Lost Ark situation...

[@blacklord3212]

you know what's sad ? there are players who justify everything about this system , saying if you don't like it don't use it or don't play lol , the same fucking mentality of a lost ark player many of them who kept saying these words until it reached this state , honestly if the mentality of players in this game will be the same then it is doomed before it is even released and they can enjoy the game alone with their guild members that's all lol , giving strong feedback about these stupid systems so NCsoft can improve it and listen to us is so important for a healthy game for casuals and elite players , like we all agree , a game is never balanced about the top 1% or whales , you always look at casuals because those are the main population of the game , with challenging content of course for the elite players , but don't make me play everyday for 8 hours for weeks and months then expect players to not get burnt out ....

[@DeityVengy]

its because its the only game theyre good at and they got heavy sunk-cost syndrome. they can enjoy their 5k pop game lol

[@yexiu5649]

Ill be honest, this is a big kick in the nuts. I hope NCsoft and AGS do something about this. I really want to go full ham on this mmorpg. But allowing players to go so far ahead with money is so bad. Lke Kanon mentioned, there is some p2w that im ok with cause its not a big deal to a certain degree but this is just too much.

[@romaroalte2645]

Lol, u probably haven't played Lineage 2 and Lineage 2 Classic

[@Ryukotsu22]

Main problem is, this basically was a *War Game / Purely PvP* and people tend to spend more to be ahead on these games, which does not work well in the West, and they are trying to dress it up as an MMORPG, which people can spot a mile away now days.

[@GrinsGrave]

LMFAO, it’s cute to see how many are upset and surprised by this, like we all didn’t know this was going to happen, This is NCSoft it’s what they do lol. THEY DONT GIVE A SHIT.

[@baska-]

I like the fact that Kanon isn't a shill. You like the game but you know it's P2W trash without player trading. Such potential wasted, very sad.

[@imSkrap]

I wish bigger games like TL would look at Hypixel Skyblock and get ideas from there in terms of PvE content because my god could this game be S tier if it just had more stuff to grind that isn’t just boss fights or dungeons/pvp but imagine like fishing and getting specific gear for fishing and having a chance to fish up boss creatures with some ultra rare drops

[@friendlyfire9788]

dude all these crazy changes before us westies get the game!?

[@Ash-2449]

So you actually have to play the game instead of doing highest dungeons a few times a week to reach max bis perfect gear? Good system, this isnt wow thankfully where there's no reason to play 90% of the game and just raidlog. Yeah the chances seem pretty low and harsh but that is not as a big deal, especially when it is likely to change but will never become guarantee because no, you are not meant to be bis month 1

[@paintspot1509]

Not really, you just swipe

[@ZWatchDog]

Really hope that the powers that be listen to you, mate. As a game designer myself i can say that you have hit the sweet spot with your solutions. It's all about availability. Yes, infinite, endless loops are the cope out. However, wrecking their hourly activities in the process is not smart. They just need to use those same activities to fuel their systems and by extension F2P players. Really hope they listen to your experience and opinions as a professional gamer. As always, great video, mate! ❤

[@KanonXO]

Thank you so much! #respect to all game designers out there

[@MMOStars]

I'm starting to doubt that I even wanna grind TL at this point considering I already got NNK Crossworlds for my main grind stuff.

[@dudufera77]

So it's just like lost ark, to progress you just need to play the game, while people who pay will progress faster. The difference is you don't need alts in TL, so the process will fell less grindy

[@YonexCC]

Although I have 0 intentions to swipe in this game, but intend to play casually, more-so to enjoy the PvE content and smaller scale PvP fights, watching this makes me not even want to commit any time. Lowkey will probably be back on LA for T4 drop. Ngl but have slowly been doing a few raids here and there

[@MrPugWings]

Hope the devs hear

[@C4ptainInsanity-pm5ge]

NCSoft developed Lineage II,so why people "didn't expect" p2w?

[@jimmyBG93]

Finally an honest and realistic review, good job Kanon. Can somebody show this video to that simping noob Society Of Gaming, please?

[@AonyjsViolmlar05]

As long there are people tolerating this type of p2w game companies will keep releasing this kind of game.

[@aleksandarveljkovic8553]

I am in Korea server right now,preparing for Eu but there are big problems,if you intend to play solo forget and dont start game,you can just go mm dungeons and drop rate is terrible,even if you get purple it will not be for your build,and if you are not in a strong active guild forget about farming important stuff

[@gudadryckful]

It’s that bad if you’re not in an active guild?

[@jackynikola]

@@gudadryckful Worst than bad. Its imposible. In the sense you will have hard time. And you will quit most likely in 1-2 weeks

[@haythamelsady859]

True that ... And good guilds chose only ppl who pay 😢😅

[@sythelic]

this is just like lost ark getting a static party for raids... omg here we go again with the toxic environment

[@HMHS8]

what is the % dmg difference between perfect runes and traits and f2p with random traits / runes? If its less than 30% then i could care less. I wont be able to play 16h+ a day like some HC guilds anyway, and being able to play more than others is p2win too.

[@mrfish229]

Idk the damage but perfect runes can give you 3 extra stat points and 3%attack speed PER ITEM. That's 36 extra stat points and 36% attack speed, do the math

[@ifeawosika966]

​@@mrfish229 normal player will be deleted before they do 1 skill

[@elentb2261]

@@ifeawosika966have u play kr endgame ? Not fkin hyperboost

[@loaderboter3026]

So. This means byebye to f2p pvp. An additional problem is reasonable playtime. Such a rune system forces you to grind the runes because a player that has them will definitely outperform you easily. Now combine importance + playtime and yiu get players not participating in pvp like in bdo (about 10 people pvp in bdo properly). Second problem: throne and liberty is focused on pvp

[@kemaron4960]

do you make some guids for the new skills? - new builds?

[@Ferog51]

in guild wars you can buy literal gold from the store but its not pay to win why cant a new game be like guild wars 2

[@blue_eyez_beats356]

Ik stil using my t1 maxed out gear on 3500 cp killing tier 2 people

[@kamodarii9527]

Bro am i the only one who dont see a problem? As long as rune system is not p2w that means i can still catch up. A casual player maybe not but a hardcore F2p player def will catch up to those wales.

[@epicexx5114]

Once the western KZbinrs see this predatory system combined with the runes and everything else the game WILL be dead before it even gets started.. 1000%

[@zenoran]

Honestly, NA content creators already trashed it high and low based on the beta. Everyone was kinda hanging on a thread hoping the new changes would redeem that bad impression. While the combat changes are nice, increasing the p2w is just making it even less likely people will take the game seriously enough to give it another shot.

[@coreymj78]

Wrong. A F2P game has to support itself somehow and the whales who spend thousands of dollars will suck compared to the no-lifer mamma's boy 24-7 F2P anyway. The people who actually spend a lot of real life money on this game will be the significant minority. Lots of people still defending the game bro. It's a good game. and AGS will be making changes like they have already to the biz model for the west. No doubt. You watch. Also, watch how many people still flock to this game because good MMOs are hard to come by these days. When AOC launches, everyone will move to that and THEN the game will be dead, but it will take a year or two.

[@RandomUserYTisFailing]

​@@coreymj78 Ah yes that's why Lost Ark is doing so well

[@Afterhours.101]

Cosmetics. Make ur money with skins and morphs. Not this shit.

[@paintspot1509]

​@@coreymj78are you talking nonsense here as well...

[@xSirius01]

Great F. video 🔥 The way you explained the system is just on point, well done sir! And thanks once again!

[@Gothfel666]

Damn bro, Kanon cooked 🔥🔥 hopefully they listen bruhhh, the game really has a lot of potential...

[@bacassa]

would the attack speed help for the Staff spells?

[@iahobbies6411]

looks like they have already mad changes to this system. Rune socket reset cost is now a fixed number.

[@WadWad]

What a surprise... NC releasing a game, with minimal P2W, only them to add it fully a month later. That's just Scumsoft, legit 0 surprise. Did it with Aion classic, Linage 2, etc etc

[@layze72]

P2W stuff aside, why are there so many systems in this game? Are they purposely trying to confuse players to get them to just swipe? The unnecessary complexity and bloat in this game is insane

[@silas232003]

I'm still going to play if the game if it is fun - however for those who do not have disposable money - unfortunate.

[@icecoldfroste]

How much money are we talking for paying for all of these advancements

[@user-dy6lv1tl4x]

thanks for this kanon! i appreciate, can you maybe share your GS/SNS Build please?

[@NexxPK]

Big up for Kanon, banger video, real facts in here

[@Clust3rFunk1]

I have gone from being almost obsessed with the western release to “I will never play this.” Really disappointing to hear/see.

[@jacsad]

ashes of creation is my last hope... for mmorpg anyone know how much will cost to max everything ? if its cost about 300$ im ok with that but if its like diablo immortal that u can spend unlimited money for unmlimted power its really bad

[@user-dy6lv1tl4x]

now the question is, as a f2p player, when you hit the hard cap, and you saw a hard cap p2w player, can he one hit you? or that depends on his skills? sometimes p2w players are dumbasses that cnt play properly, f2p players sometimes are a diff breed and they are good with pvp.

[@DeityVengy]

this game too mid to be this grindy tbh

[@kamunanya5700]

LETS GOOOOOOOOOO KANON P2W VID EPISODE 100

[@moppin]

I wish they would just keep RNG out of crafting. Rolling dice against the house while betting my time/effort is not fun. Not all gamers are gambling addicts.

[@vinceatos6154]

any link for the sheet ncsoft gave out?

[@Broku-vv2rq]

This game will have many day 1 players, but once the streamers pick it apart and leave, it will die fairly quickly. It is going to look like Elyon's release not too long ago.

[@AlexDuKaNaa]

Dynamic events was what made Throne and liberty stand out for me...

[@johnnyderpplays]

Ughh guild wars 2 from 14 years ago?

[@zelasd3125]

This video has convinced me to not bother with T&L - it's pretty obvious where this all is going and in 1-2 years from now you will have another half dozen such systems, half of which you will be able to swipe up for even more snowballing. Not interested.

[@zeid9828]

As a hyperboost player, halfway through the video makes me want to quit already. 😭

[@CalgarGTX]

I despise all forms of gacha rng type enhance chances 'progression' for the sole reason my luck with those systems is always terrible or near zero success. The mmo I currently main suffers from this from just gear drop chances to enhance/augment rolls with zero pity/failsafes and despite being immensely rich ingame money wise and playing with some of the best players on that server I'm always half a step to a step behind due to being brick-walled by these 'progression' systems. Doesn't matter what amount of 'effort' or time I put in can be 10x the next guy and I still end up with worse gear. Having p2w (or rather p2roll again and fail anyway in my case) doesn't make it any better obviously. That is by far the biggest L I've heard for T&L since I follow whats happening around it, and objectively means I need to cross off the game from my radar since I'll never have BIS gear in it. And not about to go get farmed in pvp by people who have the luck or infinite wallets to make up for it.

[@DamienOP]

It's sad if the global version is like the Korean one, after a short hype period the game will die within 2-3 months at most. and pvp based game but pvp combat is not perfect (although it is a bit better after the spec system, it is still not enough for crowded fights) I don't think the game itself will be ignored by the players, especially for a player who doesn't know the co-op dungeons, you have to watch a video and memorize the mechanics just like a school student. the game doesn't help in teaching, the players are not patient at all, they kick you out of the party and tell you to watch a video and memorize it... where is the fun of learning? I don't know, it's a game with potential, but when it opens globally they will have to hold their hands fast, otherwise it's hard to catch it back after the hype is gone like the new world case.