Panther KF51 vs Challenger 3 (Battle of Next Generation Tanks)

[@4evaavfc]

You are right. The Challenger 3 is more of a significant upgrade rather than a new generation of tank, which is what the Panther KF51 is.

[@LadyLogicLab]

Right

[@virtualinfinity6280]

The KF51 is Rheinmetalls technology demonstrator for the next higher caliber NATO gun. It is definitely not a production-ready tank. It has not undergone any trials, was not build to meet any army's specifications and has not been approved by NATO. It may or may not be developed into a production tank, but this will take years to achieve, even it things go very right during the development. I like the fact, that our defense industry comes up with things like the KF51. And of course, as any armchair tank general on youtube, I'll attest that the KF51 is very good, because it looks cool 😉

[@35geordielad]

Challenge 3 ❤

[@Themistocles30]

Panther looks beautiful

[@mattsavage9960]

I agree it definitely looks better but I don't think it's as good as the challenger 3 as the challenger 3 has better Armour and is overall a better tank imo. To be absolutely honest I think the panther would struggle to beat a challenger 2 I do think it would but only just because of the AI. But at the end of the day it always comes down to how well trained the crew is and the British are usually better in that department. I remember only a couple years ago the challenger 2 came out victorious in a NATO contest, like I said it was because the crew was better than the other NATO countries involved.

[@Themistocles30]

@@mattsavage9960 The panther seems to be more aimed at stealth... But the challenger 2 isn't good as the leopard 2a6 or m1a2 sep2. The challenger 3 is just an upgrade from the challenger 2. Challenger 3 was to compete with the leopard 2a7 and m1a2 sep3. Germany is onto the leopard 2a8 already.

[@mattsavage9960]

@@Themistocles30 Except the challenger 3 is better protected against drones in armour and actively trying to bring drones down in more than 1 way. And as we have seen in Ukraine you cant really make a tank stealthy these days and top notch armour and anti drone systems not just electronic warfare is an absolute must for any tanks of the future. And having an emphasis on training the best possible tank crews Are the most important things on any future contenders for good tanks. As drones have changed everything, as seen in Ukraine.

[@Themistocles30]

@@mattsavage9960 The challenger 2 got destroyed in Ukraine by a mine... Really should be some improvement there aswell. The new panther was not in Ukraine.

[@mattsavage9960]

@@Themistocles30 A mine will destroy most tanks, no tank is indestructible and in fact only 1 challenger 2 tank was ever destroyed before Ukraine and that was a friendly fire incident in Iraq. It's well known in military circles as one of the most robust tanks ever made because of its special composite armour. Like I said it recently won a main battle tank NATO competition called Iron Spear in Estonia in 2023 with the leopard 2 coming second and M1 Abram coming 3rd. It's also well known during the Iraq war for taking many RPG hits on multiple occasions and still running fine. But NO tank is indestructible even all the new ones being made. It's also well known for being able to be used at a longer distance than most tanks and held the record for the longest tank to tank kill at 3.17miles or 5.1km. And has been recorded in Ukraine hitting tanks from distances of 4.5km in Ukraine the Ukrainians themselves call it the sniper of tanks. And they weren't given many of them at all less than 20 in total so far. Down sides to it are the weight, size and massive fuel consumption.

[@robertedwards1416]

Stop using video of the Lynx for the KF51.

[@davidfeatch1436]

Chally has a tea making machine

[@cathulhu-q7y]

as has every other NATO MBT since the 1960s.

[@davidfeatch1436]

@@cathulhu-q7y good ideas are always copied 😆😜

[@astafford8865]

The secret new armour "still Brewing" after a visit from the Lancet

[@LewisLeeLandscapes]

Surely its just a water boiler lol...

[@user-xq8vv7pq6j]

You omitted a couple of crucial metrics. First and foremost - cost. CR3 is an expensive upgrade, but KF51 is going to be eye-watering. Second is ammunition load. You said KF51 only carries 20 rounds for the main gun (by the way that ".50 cal coaxial machine gun" isn't a co-axial gun). I've not seen anything stating the load for a CR3. Challenger 2 carries 47 rounds and both Leopard 2 and M1A2 carry 42, so 20 really isn't acceptable. An early option to upgrade the C2 with the smoothbore gun was not pursued because of the poor ammunition load (CR2 ammunition is two (really three) part whereas the smoothbore uses single piece ammunition) which was hard to squeeze into a tank nor designed for it - BAE Systems could only manage SIX rounds! Given the new turret was designed specifically to take the L55A1 (and potentially the Rh-130 L-52 later if the ammunition becomes NATO standard), I'd expect it to take 40-45 rounds, assuming none are stored in the hull.

[@85daniel]

The KF51 not yet exist. It's still a prototype

[@samsar785]

Do any of the two tanks mentioned i.e. Challenger-3 & Panther KF51 have any counter measures for drone attacks? You haven't learnt anything from Ukraine 🇺🇦 war yet 😢😢😢😢

[@_ithinkmodding._3740]

The trophy active protection system on the chally 3 is advertised as a counter drone technology. Although the placement of it on the side is a bit of an oddball given it increases the visual footprint of the tank by an extra few feet

[@chethemerc7841]

The chally does.

[@luciusesox1luckysox570]

Ahem.. Do you think the nations that made anti tank weapons like the Javelin and the Nlaw would not make these things impervious to Drones. Do you also think they would advertise it .. ?

[@user-xq8vv7pq6j]

@@luciusesox1luckysox570 Improved top armour was a core requirement for the CR2 life extension programme, which was abandoned in favour of the new turret. I think we can be sure attention has been paid to the lid.

[@crankypest2617]

Sorry just a pet peeve. It is not Rhein METAL it is Rhien Met All. That is how they pronounce it.

[@johnjohnson-cv7kf]

Thank you! You beat me to it! 👍

[@deusvult7559]

It's common all over youtube vids. Apparently ai isn't so smart after all.

[@BritishFreedom]

Challenger 3 tanks are already out

[@alangunningham5667]

2 prototypes only so far , certainly not in service yet

[@cathulhu-q7y]

CR3 will enter service from 2027 onwards and will be on a technological standard of Leopard 2A7V from 2017

[@alangunningham5667]

@@cathulhu-q7y still crap compared to new design ..no drone protection, no drone recon, no standard 140 mm and no extra armor ...as stated unless for a new tank, and now probably cancelled by labour !

[@phil3114]

wtf? The C3 is not next gen, it just brings C3 up to par with current Abrmas and L2 models. What exactly makes it stand out?

[@miked4027]

'What will stand out' is the British Military lads using it!

[@Biketunerfy]

Actually the CH3 is better than Abraham’s since it’s armour is better and it’s using the new higher pressure gun so can shoot hypersonic APFSDS rounds with much more kinetic energy, after all that’s why they call them kinetic energy penetrators but yes it over matches Abraham’s now. It’s also running a 1500 HO engine as well and has the most up to date fire and digital architecture that links in to NATOs digital battlefield control systems. It’s the most bad ass tank in NATO now.

[@iainansell5930]

what constitutes as next generation? everything is being upgraded that matters... it uses the same hull, but the armour will be upgraded... there is very little difference in Hull construction and materials on any tank since the centurian, its whats bolted to it that matters.... any new tanks wiill still have a basic steel structure upon which the armour and equipment will be bolted to it..

[@Biketunerfy]

@@iainansell5930 You answered your own question.

[@grahamjones6106]

We need to face some facts here. The Germans have had to fix British weapons like our assault rifles etc. Rolls Royce and Bentleys were crap before the Germans took over and now Aston Martin are powered by the Germans. In a nutshell, there's no comparison between British and German made equipment, fact!

[@apistodiscus]

Challenger 3, next generation? What are you on? Even the Leopard 2 A7, never mind A8 are already of it.

[@ducdelamontagne4629]

I can't believe they still build manned turrets.

[@robertnemeth6248]

The Panther has not been ordered by any army and is a prototype. With only 20 rounds of ammunition it would be of limited use on the battlefield. Its shells are also not NATO standard and would require a separate logistics train.

[@superhumanhumansuper8706]

exactly

[@badwolf66]

KF51 Evo (120mm) was ordered by Hungary.

[@LMFV66]

It is a prototype, and do you serious belive it will have only 20 rounds, and the shells will not be NATO standard ??? 😆😂😂😂

[@jl3273]

If you listen carefully... It was 20 rounds in the Ready Rack. Pretty safe bet that quite a few more rounds are in the rear bustle of the turret....or wherever the "not so ready" ammo storage is. The [proposed] design FOR THE ABRAMS X, is what has me scratching my head. It's basically an American copy / version of the Russian T-?? Armata...in all but appearance...judging by what I've read so far about the Abrams X. And judging by the video, the Panther is also going to be [basically] the same machine as the Armata. Since when is Russian tank design the measuring stick that everyone follows???? Also... I, personally, wouldn't use Ukraine's usage of western tanks as an example of how they'll fare against eastern tanks, by those who built then, an sold or donated them to Ukraine. It's not very likely that western countries will use them the same way that Ukraine is using them. And yes. I realize that Ukraine is doing the best they can with what they have access to. And... Aren't they holding their own against Russia??? And yes. I am aware that weaponized drones are taking an enormous toll on armored vehicles in Ukraine. On both sides.

[@Biketunerfy]

@@badwolf66 Ig Germany allows it, Hungary hasn’t exactly been good recently. Pain the arse in the EU.

[@ducdelamontagne4629]

please check your footage

[@Cravendale98]

Both are obviously excellent, sure the Panther would have the edge in firepower on paper but I don't think it would make much difference in the real world as even the L55A1 on the Challenger 3 combined with the newest DM83 is more than capable of taking out the panther at considerable distance, IMO in a 1v1 the biggest deciding factor would come down to which has the best crew.

[@cathulhu-q7y]

DM73. KF-51 is just a prototype demonstrator based on Leopard 2A4, not a tank ready for mass production.

[@Cravendale98]

@@cathulhu-q7y Nope, DM 83, it's a new generation of apfsds, there was a recent video where someone from the British army confirmed this, it may be known by other names too.

[@cathulhu-q7y]

@@Cravendale98 there is no DM83. Germany is currently starting introduction of DM73

[@Cravendale98]

@@cathulhu-q7y Well it was announced that the UK and Germany are collaborating to create a next generation apfsds.

[@macklee6837]

@@cathulhu-q7y Nope

[@Biketunerfy]

They would never see each other as foes anyway. That side view of the challanger 3 looks weird, it does not look like that in real life. The Challenger 3 has the newest higher pressure main gun that’s shoots hypersonic rounds and kinetic energy is hugely improved and the armour has been upgraded plus the bolt on armour has also been upgraded and the engine is now running at 1500 horse power. It’s also got a new digital suite that links in with NATO digital systems and it been called the most dangerous and lethal tank in NATO now. It’s top dog and I believe it too.

[@TheGrowler55]

Rule Britannia from Glasgow, just saying 👊😎🇬🇧

[@cathulhu-q7y]

thats why the UK has to rely on german companies to fix their stuff (Rheinmetall, H&K etc)

[@Biketunerfy]

@@cathulhu-q7y Nothing wrong with letting friends help out. Most countries don’t even make tanks anymore and buy them from abroad.

[@cathulhu-q7y]

@@Biketunerfy sure, but then don't claim that it's your inventions etc

[@Biketunerfy]

@@cathulhu-q7y Where have you see a Brit claiming the new gun is a British invention. The tank is but not this particular gun.

[@LewisLeeLandscapes]

@@cathulhu-q7y Its 2024... Get a grip...

[@petermclelland278]

Bang! Gone! The bloody 'Wunderwaffe' tanks. Dinosaurs in 21st century warfare.

[@owenjones506]

It seems to me the Challenger 3 is an old dog with new trick's, it still has that big slab of armour on the front, a perfect target to knock it out !, which it will be . it just seems a cheap upgrade without looking at its weak point (front), adding on reactive armour just adds weight . We know from the 2rdWW that bigger is not alway's better .

[@LMFV66]

Panther KF51 all the way.

[@brianjordan-5357]

Sabot pronounced say-boh. Sabbat is a satanic ritual. Say-boh not Sabbat.

[@cathulhu-q7y]

wich is also not correct. In Sabot, the T is not silent.

[@rolyantrauts2304]

The Challenger 3 is a 3rd gen upgrade to stop the embarissment the UK no longer produces a MBT. Its a totally unfair comparison to the Panther KF51 which is Gen4. For the UK its a complete waste of taxpayers money with only a token 148 ordered. It will never see frontline duty as US Gen4 tanks will always get preference as will others. We should of invested in rapid deployment lightweight next gen battlefield tech providing beneficial solutions for our allies than battle tech that is dated before use and in small numbers it will always be a bit part or no role at all.

[@RichCow-xe1bz]

Challenger 3 is 2nd to none

[@alangunningham5667]

one is new one is an upgrade and a stupid upgrade at that the upgrade cost as much if not more than a new one , we cant sell any version of the challenger3 , challenger 3 weapon is already outdated , the right gun would be the 140mm which is already finished and ready for installation in a platform ...no waiting , with a major change for tanks, dealing with drones , challenger 3 is not even ready for that ...cancel challenger 3 and design new tank and but that one ....just one point from the video , the challenger 3 gun is not 120 its 130

[@phil3114]

all true. But...the MOD thought about buying brand new L2 tanks but rejected it in the end because it would hurt national pride too much. So upgrade it is

[@alangunningham5667]

@@phil3114 doesnt make it right , sounds more like some one got a back hander ... what a waste of money for a tank less likely to bring the crew home :(

[@ThatsGot]

❤😂😂😂🎉😢😢😢😮😅😅😅

[@deusvult7559]

The Challenger 3 is already built and tested. Units are already in the pipe. The Panther has been a prototype since God knows when. It is an inherent addiction among Germans to constantly over engineer EVERYTHING. We may never see the Panther go into production in our lifetime. lol

[@iainansell5930]

the shot trap on the lower part of the turret though...ouch

[@palacete]

🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝

[@a.w.mmathijssen7517]

Challenger 3 is no match for the kf51. Challenger 3 is still old junk with some updates.

[@pasimaki1495]

Panther better

[@palacete]

The war between Ukraine and Russia showed us a few things about Western tanks. On paper, you might think the Abrams was the best, but in the war it proved to be the worst tank of all, with terrible maintenance and logistics. The least safe tank was the Challenger 2, because it exploded from the inside. And the best was the Leopard 2, because it was cheaper, very safe, etc. But in general, these super-technological tanks weighing over 60 tons are a terrible deal, very expensive and inefficient.

[@marshallmonroe8803]

I don't know about the Challenger exploding from inside! Only 1 has been lost so far, and no reports of it exploding from inside. Its mobility wasn't great, and the main reason why M1s haven't performed too well was because of the turbine engine. Very fuel inefficient and puts out extra heat so it's more vulnerable to drones and anti tank weapons. I think it was a terrible tank to give to Ukraine. When we use the M1, we have total air superiority, and our supply lines are usually secure, so the fuel consumption isn't a huge issue and helps us enjoy the performance, but without those elements it can be a huge burden. Also, Western tanks usually require more training than a few months, but yeah, Western weapons are gonna get taken out just like anything else. And NATO advanced smart weapons like Himars Excalibur Storm shadows ext have been neutralized because of Russian jamming.

[@35geordielad]

Where did you get your info regarding the Challenger exploding inside ? This wasn't proved and as the Challenger is a proven battle tank only one has ever been lost tland as you mentioned, this was lost in Ukraine probably by inexperienced Ukrainian crew .

[@anthonylewis679]

More leo`s (12 confirmed ), and M1`s, ( about 20 est ) have been destroyed than chally`s, ( 1 confirmed ) the 1 chally destroyed, was disabled by a mine, thus turning it into a static target for the russians, but, time will tell if it actually proves to be the least safe of the western tanks.

[@Codydawg1]

Only Chally lost was probably a mine which disabled it, with crew escaping fine. It was then a much easier target. Ukranian does keep them for best, and gets it's best bang for its buck.

[@Biketunerfy]

The Challenger didn’t explode from the inside in Ukraine 😂. The crew survived and got away. The tank burnt out and if the tank exploded from the inside the turret would be gone. Challenger is the safest tank. It was designed with survivability in mind. Challenger 2 took tens of RPGs and a Milan ATGM in Iraq it was back out fighting the next day 😂.

[@JOzzie-u8z]

So the challenger 3 is basically a do e up challenger 2 wow you went through so much trouble for what to add weight to something that can be destroyed by a 500 dollar drone tanks are no longer modern warfare equipment

[@sherman4970]

No thanks. Tanks are nice but would you want to be in one ?????

[@LadyLogicLab]

No absolutely not

[@StarmersKarma]

Both are a waste of money. Ukraine has shown that ALL main battle tanks are obsolete. Challenger 2, Leopard 2, and Abrams tanks were all turned into burning scrap. Usually by cheap drones costing a tiny fraction of a tank. Fast mobile drone command vehicles should be the investment of the future.

[@котякотин-х1т]

сбросник с коктейлем Молотова и нет танка