The Mysterious Disappearance of the Classic Chaotix

[@Pariah6950]

I FORGOT TO MAKE THE START AND END BLACK AND WHITE! I apologize for this grievous error. I understand if some of you could never forgive me, or even unsubscribe for such a damaging mistake. This entire video is essentially worthless now, I know. I hope one day we can all recover and move on.

[@SaddieMoon]

Oh yeah, I forgot you do that. Anyways, back to not caring. ;) In all seriousness, I like those small details that you put into your videos.

[@SaddieMoon]

I just realized I point you could’ve made. We still see a lot of elements made by Sonic Team from the Classic games that are featured in modern games all of the time. Like Green Hill, Chemical Plant, Sky Sanctuary. But yet, we don’t see anything modern areas in the Classic games.

[@spicybreadproductions1972]

One day the scars will heal, but for now they bleed with an agonising aggression.

[@peanutbutterrocket]

I went straight to the comments to point this out

[@peanutbutterrocket]

No way. Was this an April fools joke? I’m so mad!

[@gokuuzumaki5748]

Classic Vector never showing up in Classic media again feels the most wrong tbh, like bro he was legit created by Naoto Oshima for Sonic 1 making him one of the oldest Sonic characters ever, and this is how he's being treated, smh.

[@inendlesspain4724]

To be fair, Ooshima's Vector was also redesigned for Knuckles' Chaotix.

[@kingkazma3246]

@@inendlesspain4724 No, his Chaotix Redesign is older than Mighty and Ray! Look up the Mighty and Ray Concept art! Mighty was gonna be lanky and Ray was gonna be wide.

[@timtanium7074]

Picture of Sticks with text "Nepotism???" is absolute gold

[@HeckDancer]

Seeing "Forced segregation" text with a bunch of Sonic characters is hilarious

[@Luciie_Joshuni]

That one video by Jehtt or something:

[@iananderson4754]

We have to keep classic and modern separate but equal -Jim the Crow

[@autobotproductions1244]

My best guess they don’t use classic Chaotix is because they don’t want to admit Knuckles Chaotix exists

[@OhKayEl]

Nah they just forgot it existed.

[@autobotproductions1244]

@@OhKayEl didn’t everyone?

[@baconbutevil76]

​​@@autobotproductions1244 not me. I am the #3 fan of the chaotix, the 2nd fan is knuckles and chaootix and god knows who cares enough to be the first

[@SEAWORRIER]

But they've used the soundtrack as unlockable bonus materials a few times now.

[@murilosampaio1264]

Fair point, weird ass game

[@gameshirostudios]

Iizuka mentioned the Chaotix members’ redesigns in an interview prior to Heroes (I believe) and was super adamant about Chaotix not being a Sonic Team game, hence why they wanted to remake the characters. Like another commenter stated, it’s odd because Sonic Team wasn’t actually a real division prior to NiGHTS. Even if you retroactively add Sonic 1-3 into ST’s softography because of Naka’s involvement, CD was developed without him. And if they say, “Well, Ōshima directed that title and he was a key member of Sonic 1’s team and later joined Sonic Team,” Hoshino was part of Chaotix’s development team and is one of the leaders of the current Sonic Team. I think it’s not as cut and dry as “Sonic Team” and “not Sonic Team,” and it’s more a matter of what Iizuka personally likes lol.

[@inendlesspain4724]

As always, this franchise's long, complex canon which *dozens* of nerds around the globe care about is at the mercy of Daddy Zukke. I'm one of those nerds.

[@rynobehnke8289]

This seems about right. Heroes Writer was after all similarly mind her never liked the classic games so there is like a single blink or you miss it reference to classic sonic stuff in all scripts he ever wrote for Sonic. He also said that he just completely ignored Chaotic when he wrote Heroes and I feel like he would have done the same for Sonic, Tails, Amy , Knuckles and Eggman if he wouldn't have been a fan of Adventure 1 which did for the most part keep there classic era characters intact.

[@maximyllion]

@@rynobehnke8289imagine writing for a franchise you hate dawg wtf

[@SparklingJam]

Yes if their going by sonic team or not sonic team then techinaclly tails knuckles and Amy should either not be in modern games or not in classic games

[@dreamareakoso3791]

@@maximyllion i introduce you to 343 Industries, the company that continues to hire people that hated classic Halo, aka Halo CE, 2, 3, ODST, and Reach, aka the best Halo games and refuses to hire the people that MADE HALO IN THE FIRST PLACE

[@ibitejawbreakers61]

Modern Mighty is my favorite Sonic character, and it's a shame he's not around. His iteration in the post-reboot archie comics specifically, such a bad ass.

[@UltimateTS64]

Yeah, I wish they would just do the same thing they did with the Chaotix, just make them all new characters at this point cause it's really annoying not having them there when we know they exist

[@herculescelular3278]

Dude, I love Modern Mighty with that design. I hope Sonic Team change the way they see the classic characters.

[@l0pxny]

same man, i really wish he was in a modern game

[@metaknightjudgesyoursins4710]

*R.I.P Heavy and Bomb. You will.. maybe be missed.. you both were in one game*

[@StellaFangX]

They were meant as a negative effect for the player, so no biggie. Maybe they'll give them cameo before coming up with a better version of them like the E102 / 120 robots.

[@justinc.5591]

Nintendo does the same thing; people always ask why Waluigi isn’t in mainline Mario games and it’s because he was created by Camelot, not in-house at Nintendo.

[@justinarzola4584]

This reminds me of the Marvel movies not being able to use certain characters because their film rights were owned by other studios, thankfully that's no longer the case.

[@elmaionesosexo]

Or how Sakurai barely pays respect to Kirby stuff he didn't worked on, focusing mainly on Super Star even though I've heard that game has been surpassed by many games afterwards not made by him.

[@iananderson4754]

​@@justinarzola4584technically they've always had the rights to waluigi they just don't want to use him. To them it's like using a fanfiction character made by someone else even though they own him. While the movie example isn't that good because they legally couldn't use those characters but wanted to.

[@mau2172]

I knew Pariah was gonna do something funny for april fools but I did not expect it being him throwing the word "nepotism" into the sonic team conversation

[@pilaramadouwu657]

I honestly enjoy this type of editing instead of gameplay quite a lot, the drawings and shit are really funny lol

[@rollbustah]

I think a lot about how different the franchise would be if Sonic Heroes released with its original concept. We'd have modern counterparts of Fang, Bean, Bark, Mighty, and Ray. Shadow would stay dead so there would probably be a completely different game made between Heroes and 06 and that could have had huge ramifications for the series. Since every character was modernized, maybe we'd have Sonic Team taking a completely different approach to Classic characters than they currently do. When you think about it, Heroes was a huge branching point in the timeline for the series. I'd love to get a glimpse of that alternate timeline.

[@StellaFangX]

Maybe when they'll remake this game or make a sequel of Heroes the rest of the classic characters will be there, Trip included.

[@barozukos7791]

​@@StellaFangX Trip Might and Ray would make a good team, cause Metal Sonic there made no sense

[@yoshimilkman3692]

Sonic Team not wanting to bring back old non-Sonic Team characters does line up with Ian Flynn stating often on the Bumblekast that Sonic Team isn't too keen on referencing older material (i.e. the freedom fighters). Also with the IDW cast at least, I'd say they're essentially game characters. The IDW comics have a significant amount of Sonic Team oversight, and some Sonic Team artists like Yuji Uekawa have even made covers for certain issues.

[@nickrayer3776]

Idk man I mean Vector is technically is a Sonic Team classic character when they were developing Sonic 1

[@yayo_youtube]

They sure hate using Eggman Nega or anything from Sonic rivals, since they were never able to appear in the Archie comics properly, or even in IDW. I guess Eggman nega did get stuck in the ifrit dimension

[@joewilliams-un8vu]

Classic Espio last appeared in Sonic The Fighters but Classic Charmy and Classic Vector last appeared in Knuckles Chaotix AKA, their debut game.

[@oshawottchannel]

😡

[@d3hybrid713]

Man that makes SOOO MUCH SENSE this man really cracked the code I wish sega would be more transparent about this stuff I think the reasons why sega does this stinks but I would respect it more if they would say it out right

[@gamanzhiydanil]

Modern King -- Classic Peasant -- I'm dead 💀

[@runningoncylinders3829]

"The 3 Genders"

[@inendlesspain4724]

Seems like you too are at the bottom of the hierarchy. Don't worry, maybe some day you'll get better.

[@gamanzhiydanil]

@@inendlesspain4724 noooo, I'm most right

[@crimsonzone8984]

Ah! So that's what it says in the class system part. The video was blurry, I couldn't read them.

[@SonicntZane]

accidentally skipped 5 minutes and saw this wtf

[@J_Ciner]

The argument that Sega only wanted to use Sonic Team characters before Mania is a moot point because Mighty and Ray were designed by Manabu Kusunoki, who was a member of Sonic Team. I think the only reason they're not using the classic Chaotix characters is that they just haven't gotten around to it yet, I don't think there's some big grand reason. We'll probably see them soon, and classic Espio has already also had a cameo in one of the IDW classic issues on a Fighters arcade cabinet, in addition to the art you mentioned. Sonic Team still has involvement with pretty much every game that uses the Sonic brand. Even The Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog had involvement from Sonic Team members even though it was largely developed by the Twitter social media team and their friends. There's no grand conspiracy or a rivalry between Sonic Team and Sega, and if they wanted to use them they would. It's not at all the same issue as the Freedom Fighters because those were characters created either by American cartoon writers with little involvement from Sega or by the early Archie team that they wanted to distance themselves from for obvious reasons. Sonic Team didn't develop Tails Skypatrol and 4 characters from that game just showed up in the comics recently. This video is jumping to a lot of conclusions and honestly this issue is not that big of a deal. We'll see them sooner or later, just like eventually Knuckles' Chaotix will probably get a rerelease, it just hasn't happened yet. If they can bring back an official redesigned Elise, anything can happen, and Sega can do whatever they want with their characters.

[@SkyeWeeb]

Honestly, I think this is just the byproduct of the Chaotix being retconned for Heroes. I'm sure something similar would've happened to the other classic characters if they stuck to the original plan. As a result, if they did stick with this whole "Classic Sonic universe" thing, it'd probably only just be Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy, Metal Sonic, and Eggman without any of the other obscure characters, even as cameos.

[@mediamuncher69]

Fun fact: Knuckles Chaotix's is canon because in the new Fang the Hunter mini series they brung Neutronic High Zone back in issue 2# and since IDW Sonic is canon to the games this means classic chaotix's is still canon. And in Sonic Seasons of Chaos on page 40, when eggman is sleeping, you can see a Sonic the Fighters cabinet with classic espio next to classic knuckles. And in the recent tails tube the acknowledge the events of knuckles chaotix's along with mighty and ray still existing somewhere on earth. I think the reason why we can't see classic chaotix is because SEGA mandates and brand confusion and Sonic Heroes confusion. But classic Vector does make a small blink and you miss it appearances in Amy 30th adventure comic so...

[@NatSnack]

Weren't Vector and Mighty character designs created during the development of Sonic 1 though? That would make them Sonic Team characters....

[@iananderson4754]

But if he acknowledged that it then it would make him sound like he's grasping at the distinction. Because it really is just arbitrary who's classic and who's not.

[@MagillanicaLouM]

@@iananderson4754 It is all a weird wild west crapshoot at this point, especially with Trip existing now lol

[@SaddieMoon]

I would’ve just said that Sega noticed all of the Classic fans who felt alienated over the years. So when they started bringing back Classic characters in only Classic material, they did it to create a version of Sonic just for those Classic fans so they aren’t alienated as much, and can have their Sonic. The Chaotix isn’t is only because the roster of Classic is already decently sized, and they didn’t want to overflow it with more characters, remembering the old complaint of too many Sonic characters from Classic fans.

[@Blanktester685]

outside of the usual 4 plus eggman and metal, what other classic character is reoccurring?

[@SaddieMoon]

@@Blanktester685 I didn’t say reoccurring. My comment was about how Sega mixed Classic characters nowadays, but didn’t want to overflow the roster to have another “Sonic’s Friends” controversy. Besides, since Mighty and Ray’s return, we had a bunch of comics in IDW, and had another Classic game bringing back all of these old characters. Almost all “Classic” Material since Mania nowadays, brings back or references these old characters.

[@SisterRose]

The problem is that Sonic's world has a distinct lore, and we see whimsical/weird environments in modern Sonic and more realistic ones in Classic(esp. in the artwork). It's clear that they're both the same world, but as stated, the Island nations tend to be pretty weird & anthro populated and the continents are more human and "earth" like, albeit with some of the same odd geography, presumably shaped by the various god-like forces through the millenia. Shadow, Chaos, Dark Gaia, the Ancients all exist in "Classic Sonic", he just hasn't encountered him yet. A lot of people want to keep them truly separate, as if nothing from the modern era ever happened, but that doesn't make sense with how they explained it. If the timelines diverged and Classic Sonic DOES exist in his own timeline as a result, it SHOULD go on to have alternate versions of the plots of the various games - which would be kind of cool, Sonic Adventure 2D? Why not. If Classic Sonic was ALWAYS a separate Universe that just so happened to resemble Modern Sonic's past, it just feels like trying too hard to appeal to the retrowank. Like I get it, Classic Sonic has a certain appeal and as of Sonic Adventure, it did take a slightly different direction. But at the same time, it's hard to pinpoint for *sure* exactly where that happens. Sonic 3 & Knuckles already edged towards a more modern style. The "Classic Sonic" a lot of people imagine is very distinctly Sonic 1-CD-2, but Knuckles is somehow there too. Sonic 2 was in many ways the Zenith of Sonic, when he was at peak cultural relevance(into 93 with the cartoons). But even then, the modern "Santiago" Classic Sonic is it's own weird little Disneyfied thing - he's cute alright and very toyetic, but in reality Classic Sonic pretty obviously had the same implied personality as modern. I nearly feel like the "Classic Disney Sonic" should be his own thing altogether. Lean into the bastardised classic style and do something with it. You can even do some of the modern characters in that style, why not? I feel like I'm more of a modern Sonic person even though I did grow up with the 16 and 8 bit titles, and recognise that that it some ways peaked with 2 and 3 & Knuckles. There's just something about the approach - which I blame as much on the "fans" as anyone - that rubs me the wrong way.

[@galten7361]

Don't forget the 3D Classic games.

[@Soracayo]

'Equivalent' retellings of modern stories in the style of Sonic 3&K would be awesome

[@lightpriv3425]

Very fun video! Your usual podcast-y analysis style of videos meshes surprisingly well with these character-centric, isolated projects (like with the Amy video). Hope to see more of these goofy side-projects sprinkled in more often!

[@OhKayEl]

To be honest I respect this decision. It makes the franchise more focused and easier to tell of what's canon and what's not. You have no idea how many Sonic fans STILL unironically think that Sonic lives on planet Mobius.

[@runningoncylinders3829]

Having started in the Adventure Era I'll wager the Sonic brand lives and dies by its ability to be versatile and reinvent itself which was the sticking point of Boom, Lost World, and the Storybook Duology. Meanwhile Sonic "canon" has increasingly meant Sonic "restrictions". I would prefer Sonic to be effectively void of continuity and be allowed to return the old characters in a transformative way like Modern Chaotix.

[@OhKayEl]

@@runningoncylinders3829 Sonic Boom, Sonic Lost World and the Storybook games didn't stick LOL.

[@runningoncylinders3829]

@@OhKayEl Am I supposed to be wooshing you right now? It was precisely my point that they were never meant to stick. The philosophy of their design to expand or differentiate the scope, tone, or cast of Sonic through those entries was preserved all that while, and streamlining the series to be more homogenized will be an extreme disservice when stuff like these had their own identity, and you seem to be arguing against the notion of that being one of their positive traits.

[@s3studios597]

@@runningoncylinders3829 Not really sure how canon restricts anything. Damn near every series in existence has some form of canon and works out just fine, and it the vast majority of stuff outside of canon or that fucks with canon is vastly less well-received than the actual canon. Sonic's constant lack of identity or consistency has been one of the biggest criticisms against the franchise since the Adventure Era, even amongst defenders of the series, and especially with the 2010s era. Hell, them actually acknowledging the continuity of the series again is part of the reason so many people hated the "Meta Era" and why they were so happy about Frontiers.

[@Pariah6950]

I actually feel the same way. Sonic was way too all over the place before. I like that there is an effort to make Sonic more clear. But I think they've gone about that poorly.

[@SaddieMoon]

Ian Flynn does say in one of his bubble cast podcasts that Knuckles Chaotix is still considered cannon to make everything cannon.

[@magolor-3100]

Besides archie and chronicles

[@SaddieMoon]

@@magolor-3100 yeah, specifically anything not main series like Archie or anything Chronicles isn’t cannon.

[@Pariah6950]

That's lip service. I'll believe it when I see the classic Chaotix again.

[@SaddieMoon]

@@Pariah6950 That’s fair

[@SaddieMoon]

Welp, Knuckles Chaotix’ hub-world and Classic Vector (in a cameo for the later) has appeared in IDW. And IDW is canon.

[@kemious9361]

I believe on of the reasons we don't see the old chaotics is a combination of reasons. First of all the original designs and personalities were supplanted by the current designs. Heroes was probably the first time that many saw or even played as the chaotics and thats how a good chunk of the fan base knows those characters. In addition the old designs of the chaotics dont exactly fit the style of genisis sonic and the new ones dont exactly play nice with those designs either. Espio horn/noseless features kinda clash with alot of the old style, Vector would have similar issue with how old vector is designed. And while its not an issue with Charmy, those characters are a trio and such have to be group as such. While in the chase of Amy and Sonic their designs being supstainally different from thier older version I think they can get away with that because those old forms are so iconic that people accept it. That would be the case with the chaotics. As for a why the older characters havent made theier way back into the main line game is also combination of things. The shift to Sonic Solo games ever since 06's failure has made it difficult to reintroduce older characters into the series. Characters like Ray and Mighty can't just enter the franchise again without being playable on some level. Nack as a villian did have the potential of popping up in Forces admittedly, but as he might have just been forgotten or considering what they wanted to do with infinite they chose to skip over Nack. We will probably never see Mordern characters get a Genisis version, simply because of how those characters are introduced nito the series. You cant have a classic Shadow playing a long a classic sonic because of How shadow was introduce same goes with rouge and other mordern additons

[@andrewdowell6474]

They got busted along with Yuji Naka for insider trading.

[@BraviaGames]

*Shows Sticks on screen* NePoTiSm??? Jokes aside I'm enjoying seeing your humor shine through visually! This was quite compelling for an April Fools day video. You could even turn this into a series. Pariah, Private Eye!

[@Laekith]

Sonic Team should start appropriating more characters. The Hooligans are already mercenaries, make them the Chaotix's rivals or something

[@sonicthehegheghog321]

With the release of the murder of sonic and this video you remind me how much I want an not ironic ace attorney-like kind of game with team Chaotix. I mean they are detectives only in name, I want to resolve mysteries with them.

[@Pariah6950]

For a long time I've thought a Sly Cooper kinda game would be the way to go. Combat and puzzle solving with Vector, platforming and stealth with Espio, and... something with Charmy. But instead of heists, you're collecting clues and solving mysteries.

[@sonicthehegheghog321]

@@Pariah6950 I would go more in line of the Dangarompa's and Ace Attorney's series, that means graphic adventures where you go and solve actual murderers (that it doesn't have to be very graphical, Ace Attorney has nearly 10 games and most of them share demographic with Sonic and / or doesn't show gore or things like that) searching for clues and contradictions but with a lot of other genre's Gameplay. Combat and Stealth sounds like good genre for something like that.

[@jjohnson2445]

@@Pariah6950 where was classic knuckles and classic Amy during sonic generations

[@robertlupa8273]

@@sonicthehegheghog321 *"Ace Attorney mostly doesn't show gore or things like that"* Meanwhile kid me, quitting Ace Attorney the moment blood appeared in the first cutscene (and not coming back for like 10 years or so): 😶

[@anthonyoliver418]

My guess is that Knuckles Chaotix conflicts with the direction the wanted to go with certain characters, so using their classic designs would just conflict with the direction they are going with for Knuckles, Mighty, and the Chaotix themselves, it is especially true when you realize that they have different abilities and skills compared to their modern counter parts, especially noticeable for Mighty, showing that the game was very different compared to what they are doing now.

[@Jr-Reed]

This has been bothering me for a while, but your theory really does make the most sense versus anything I've come up with

[@StuckOposum]

I love how this whole video is just a conspiracy that keeps going like “OR are they”

[@Matthew555tu]

What about remember when episode of Tailstube the modern cast mentioned Mighty and Ray and Fang

[@emeralddragonz2.019]

You do honestly have a nice theory as to why the Classic versions of the Chaotix haven't been seen. However I do feel like there are some gaps here & there as we don't really have a definitive answer until someone either from Sonic Team, Sega or even good ol Ian Flynn himself can confirm it. Also (and I personally wanted to point this out) the main reason for why the Archie Comics mainly got tossed was due to some controversies surrounding a particular man. If you know, you know. But hey, I'm at least happy that there's a new set of Sonic comics with even newer characters to keep up with the blue blur & his many adventures.

[@RightNowsReverie]

This turned out as a pretty fun vid. I appreciate trying to go with a different video style/editing/format(?) for a random topic, and while it isn't my cup of tea; it is a nice change of pace for you, Pariah. What you talked about was really interesting as well. While I don't agree that reason why so many characters from the past, like the Freedom Fighters or the StF cast don't show up in Modern iterations or media isn't because Sonic Team has some bias to the ones that made and didn't made. I just think Sega is too lazy to realize that they have so many fan favourites to bring back, and yet they just kinda don't, lmao. But it could be a possibility, and does also explain why recent Sonic media have been more faithful to the games; and not having the creative freedom for the likes of Archie, Fleetway, the Manga, or the DIC cartoons. Personally I do hope we get obscure characters make a comeback into Modern and become officially canon (you can tell from my pfp that I love Honey), but I agree that it'll be unlikely (I mean I won't stop believing, but at the same time I can't do much). And ig this is whole topic was very dumb and silly; but it was uploaded on April Fools, so might as well have some fun

[@aestheticfox3]

Incredibly insightful and informative video as always! I didn't even know of their existence until now

[@kiricappuchin]

19:58 Heh...SEGA-gregation... Also the chart with the Sonic class system with Shadow as king was fun. "All Hail Shadow" amirite? Great video. I love Espio's classic design so much..

[@fedeluca4015]

16:41 the reason of the archie sonic comics cancellation is actually related to the second crossover with megaman, they bougth somany ip's for this event but the crossover didn't sell well so they lost profit instead of recovered it , this is also kinda confirmed thank to the megaman comics also being cancelled and then archie making kickstarters for their comics

[@charlesinatortheponyfeatur224]

Ok, but the real tragedy is the complete neglect of the other classic knuckles chaotix stars, robotnik mechanix: heavy and bomb. I miss those little goobers

[@DuskusCB]

Reminder that Mighty and Ray came back before the classic Chaotix

[@qstmrk8004]

i read the publishing date and knew i was going to have fun

[@Davo255_]

Fun Fact: Christian Whitehead was really close to make classic Silver and classic Shadow real in Sonic Mania, but this idea got scrapped like a lot of Taxman's ideas (like True Final Boss for Sonic CD or new zone for Sonic CD). Also I really don't like idea of separate universes, because we can cleary see Sonic growing up game-by-game (like in 1991 Sonic, he can't spindash, but in Sonic CD he learns it with peelout, in Sonic 2 1992 he learns way more better way to use his speed without need to charge it and in Sonic 3 1994 we can see him looking different and more similar to his Adventure look, also he learns instashield, in Adventure he learns homing attack etc.), so Phantom Ruby being merged Time Stones from Sonic CD would make much more sense than multiverse thing

[@JUDGE-TONY]

this video needs an update due to the new comics, the fang the hunter mini series had the crew go to newtrogic high zone and even the main zone hub to investigate a lead, and in the amy anniversary comic vector makes a small cameo near the climax, and in the newest knuckles anniversary comic it shows a flashback to knuckles fighting eggman in one of his machines in chaotix

[@Wattson-ston]

I guess they just live far away? I mean, if I experienced what they experienced with Knuckles on Eggmans island I would do my best not to find him ever again.

[@MasterDisaster64]

Interesting watch. This does make a lot of sense. You only touched on this briefly, but making Classic Sonic (capital C) just Modern Sonic's past again was a terrible decision IMO. Not gonna get into it with my injured hand, but it's honestly about as bad as "two worlds" was and I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, seeing everyone praise it like it's a fix.

[@ChevySamk]

surprised they don't just rerelease knuckles' chaotix and just retcon the classic biographies for all the chaotix crew. i don't know who's gonna tear down their walls over classic charmy being 9 years old instead of 16 or whatever

[@chandlerpaulk4518]

Have you SEEN the crazy side of the fandom? People lost their shit because Sonic had green eyes and longer limbs 😅

[@rynobehnke8289]

I say Charmy is anyway the only one that need a major rewrite. Espio was already by Chaotix a Detective if I recall correctly and Vector came because he though a island raising from the ocean was a sign of the gods he should fallow similar to Amy and her cards in CD. So just have Vector see joining Espio as the divined purpose of this whole trip for him and than have them take Charmy being a child in post Chaotix and BAM all problems solved. Vector found his true calling, Espio got some real friends and Charmy a family.

[@zechariahcaraballo8765]

I wish they would just make the classic games official just younger versions and earlier in the time line, and just bring in the classic characters to the modern sonic, and let sonic team update their visual designs if they want

[@CosmicSponge2004]

Vector and Charmg were designed by Naoto Oshima at Sonic Team Vector was there in 1991 with Sonic, Mighty, Ray, and others. Charmy was made in 1992 at ST by Oshima for the manga. Plus, Vector and Espio's personalities weren't changed, they were just added to in Heroes. So your theory is pretty broken at the core because they ARE Sonic Team Characters

[@thatrandomredengine9430]

The fact that the Chaotix are classic characters (with Vector being there BEFORE the first Sonic game) is weird but awesome to think about!

[@runningoncylinders3829]

I was introduced to these guys in Heroes. ... Heroes was my first Sonic game. Might be part of why I look back on it significantly more fondly than many.

[@rynobehnke8289]

I don't thing saying "Sonic Team wants" makes a lot of sense as Sonic Team's staff has been a revolving door for years now. Far more likely that its just a few high ranking members with in Sonic Team that want there own work to feel valued higher that block most stuff that wasn't develop by them. This becomes especially noticeable ones you remember that Sonic CD is about as much true Sonic Team as Chaotix yet Amy and Metal are still very much around in both Classic and modern form. (Hell both Amy and Charmy debuted in a Sonic manga before the games) Archie wasn't Canceled by Sega. Archie didn't renew there license as they wanted to drop the Sonic comics to focus on there own properties. One more thing worth mentioning about the Sonic Channel Bio's are that they are often really lazily done. Almost every character that was in Sonic X got the pin-points copy passed from Sonic X Eye-Catcher cards. This is especially noticeable with Cream and Eggman. Cream because it states her favorite things is "The Next Show" a element unique to Sonic X while all game manuals always state her favorite things are Chao and Ice Cream. And Eggman because it states his true name is unknown. A thing they still haven't updated despite the Japanese version of TailsTube 2 still giving us his real name as Ivo Robotnik. And all non Sonic X eye-catcher card profiles share that they are for characters introduced AFTER Sonic X. I suppose it also worth noticing that because Classic Sonic is back to being Sonic's past do most newer characters make no sense to appear in the classic era. Like they won't meet Cream before Advance 2, Shadow on't wake up before Adventure 2, Blaze is doing her own things in her dimension until Rush, No one know Silver before Rivals and so on. The Chaotix are really the only other modern characters that could logistically appear in the classic era.

[@shadow1w2]

I always liked the classic Vector best but I like the idea that he just grew older and got bigger. I guess this is why we won't see Chaotix get a remake/remaster etiher. Though while Sega doesn't want to use these characters, that kind of opens it up for the fan creators to make something with them. I mean, they probably won't care if someone makes a Sally Acorn game for instance though they usually are good about everything.

[@anonymoususer188]

Part of the problem is that the last time nonSonic Team characters were put into a modern Sonic game, it was the Nocturnus clan in Sonic Chronicles, and there was a massive lawsuit over whether they even had the rights to use them that Saga lost. Sonic Team just doesn't want another fiasco like that so they're overly cautious with characters they didn't directly create.

[@bowmaj8666]

I have never agreed with the Classic/Modern split. I truly think that Sega could give us a traditional 2D Sonic game with the traditional momentum based physics, just with the Modern character designs. That way they're not purposefully denying popular characters like Shadow, Rouge, Cream, Blaze, or Silver who haven't had the chance to be in a game with arguably the most well received Sonic gameplay style. Despite this, if Sega really are stuck in this mindset of "NO! No characters with coloured irises cos..... I dunno but whiney fan boys don't like 'em and we've got to keep them happy", then you'd at least think that the next logical step in this "Classic only" series is to bring back Espio, Charmy and Vector in their Classic designs. Yet for some reason, Sega haven't done that. Now, why is that, you may ask? Well, it might have something to do with the fact that these are some of the most hated Sonic characters out there! Now, that's not me hating on these characters, I personally enjoy them and want to see them being better utilised in future Sonic projects, but look up any of those irritating "Top 10 Worst Sonic characters" and I guarantee you that at least one of the Chaotix will be on there! It's just so frustrating to me that Sega have officially, (and in my opinion, pointlessly) split the franchise in two separate series, and these characters aren't being properly utilised in either of them. And for no other reason than people on the internet whining "waaaahh, don't like 'em, get rid of 'em, reeeeeeee!"

[@DLGanimator]

Watching the intro after listening to team chaotix theme is just such a perfect fit. I like those little details you took from that song and the game itself. I know you will not respond, but I just want to tell you that you did a fantastic job, be proud with what you have done.

[@yayamonday2770]

Then there's the latest Tails Tube which decided to acknowledge Knuckles Chaotix

[@NeedleDabear]

If the classic chaotix wasn’t canon that means in heroes how did they know them-

[@doubt2022]

Now it makes sense why Sonic Origins is handled so badly, because Sega doesn't give a f*ck about classic stuff

[@joshuaBrooks.nicholas]

Your right,and they only care about the modern version of Sonic.

[@BJSolar02]

Well, Sonic Superstars debunks that whole statement... sort of

[@doubt2022]

@@BJSolar02 Sonic Team basically gave this game's development to another studio

[@DLGanimator]

I just wanna say, that superstars did not aged as well as we expected at the time of existing with the announcements

[@LsAdventurer]

Ngl it would be really cool if Sticks actually appeared in a game, considering she was actually mentioned in Frontiers, which is set in the Modern universe and not the Boom universe.

[@elimBaz]

8:06 We already have a lot of Rouge "Love" by the fans,we DO NOT need a CHILD ROUGE,WE DO NOT

[@qstmrk8004]

being classic doesn't always equal younger i mean classic sonic is the same age as modern

[@OhKayEl]

@@qstmrk8004 Hilariously untrue.

[@elimBaz]

@@qstmrk8004 🤓

[@ZenithintheMaking]

A classic Rouge wouldn't make a child Rouge. It would probably be her in a less awesome outfit with black eyes. And shorter in comparison

[@jurassicarkjordanisgreat1778]

She is 18 years old in modern canon, so she would be 16 or 17 in classic

[@BIastProcX]

I hope they'll appear as DLC characters for Superstars

[@guilhermedornelles1107]

Interestingly, in 2016, to celebrate the 21th anniversary of Chaotix, SEGA released a "remixed" art of the japanese cover on their Twitter account. Charmy, Vector, Espio and Knuckles are shown with already existent artwork from their modern versions, however for Mighty there is a Modern Mighty render that can only be found in this post and unfortunately, only his face can be seen, at least showing his blue eyes. This art of Modern Mighty was never fully revealed to this day.

[@greydevil1772]

It kinda stings that all the evidence lines up so well.

[@n1ck_real]

7:34 i know that archie sonic is technically not canon but mighty and ray actually got the same ''modern design'' remake in some sort of a way. they appeared on issue #264.

[@Nauseoussplatter]

Sonic team are very egotistical , Lets not forget they allowed the saturn to not ship with a mainline sonic game because they did not want to share nights engine with STI. Honestly believable

[@azurewarrior2000]

Yuji Naka was the only one who had a fit about a potential mainline Sonic game on the Saturn using the NiGHTS engine, the rest of SEGA wanted it but he was very against it.

[@charmyzard]

Perhaps this is about to change with Iizuka's mentioned "unified Sonic experience," as well as with (what seems like) more post-Frontiers creative freedom.

[@tonycorona8501]

The argument falls a bit flat when you remember Gemerl, the Deadly Six nor Infinite have profiles on Sonic Channel either. Edit: also Elise. I mean, we know they are official characters, and Gemerl , Elise and Infinite did receive artwork (the first thanks to IDW; the latter two with that weird what-if thing on Twitter). Heck, despite becoming a staple in the series, the Wisps don't have a profile. Sticks DOES, and she has never properly debuted in the games made by Sonic Team. 16:47 Archie cancelled the licence because they wanted to move on from licenced comic books. Sega didn't really have much to do with it. IDW did denied the FF or any american character just because paying for licences is too much of a gamble, especially as IDW doesn't have the money Archie used to have. IDW cannot even reference the movies to not pay licences. They kept it safe with creating their own characters and using only game Sonic material. Hell, this can work too with Japan: the reason we don't see Cosmo, the Metarex, or Old Owl from the OVA is to not pay extra fees for characters not created in-house, despite Cosmo being designed by Sonic Team. Ultimately everything is about money and paying the creators. For example, the Pokemon company couldn't really use Mewtwo from the first movie again because he is owned by the writer; they had to introduce a second Mewtwo just to use the character again. And the character was used again...because the movie got a remake.

[@felipe_drawmania1604]

I gonna chalk this up to Sega wanting Sonic Boom to have been the next big thing that they were somewhat involved in,and Sticks is the only survivor of the dumpster fire.

[@tonycorona8501]

@@felipe_drawmania1604 Over the Wisps, that have been part of the series since Colors? Even used in their last big game?

[@felipe_drawmania1604]

​@@tonycorona8501 Listen,it's not my job to make sense of Sega's decisions. Sega has already proven that they just do whatever and expect us to just buy it. (Curiously,outside of Orbot,Cubot and Sticks,there are no bios present for characters from the 2010s foward. Someone can probably try and guess why that's the case.)

[@SEAWORRIER]

Is that how ownership works in Japan? I'd have assumed everything would be work for hire (i.e. anything you make for a company, they own) unless the contracts weren't found... which given various examples of practices in the 90s & 00s (e.g. Silent Hill 2 & 3's voice actor dispute, Ken Penders & Archie) is entirely possible (lol).

[@ZacharyDietze]

There's just ooooone small problem with that theory: *Sonic Superstars was co-developed by Sonic Team, and it has Fang…*

[@metalrex2480]

People wondering where classic chaotix goes? But im wondering where the fuck are Heavy and Bomb!!

[@s3studios597]

The whole "adding every Sonic character for Heroes" thing has me thinking about a non-canon Sonic Heroes 2 that does just that and has and lets you customize teams ala KoF. I think I remember you saying that you thought the story for Heroes was like a fighting game story, so it works. The whole thing with Classic Sonic and external media has me thinking about how Atlus treats Persona 1 and 2 (and SMT IF). It's not nearly as bad as with Sonic, but it's still sorta similar. Outside of costume DLC, the occasional vague background reference on TV, and the butterfly, those games have like no presence in modern Persona games. Marketing is a bit nicer nowadays, though since they do feature 1 and 2 alongside the rest even if not as prominently.

[@Pariah6950]

You're totally right. Atlus does just kinda pretend Persona starts at 3 lol.

[@rollbustah]

To add to this, they did state in an interview that the reason they don't reference P1 and P2 much is because they don't consider them their work. P1 and P2 were largely the brain child of Tadeshi Satomi and Kazuma Kaneko, both of which no longer work at Atlus. So they don't mess with their old stuff somewhat out of respect and probably, though unstated, out of a desire to want to build their own version and vision of Persona. I'm guessing the deal with Sonic is much the same way, Iizuka and the other major players in Sonic Team wanting to make their own vision of Sonic away from what Naka and Oshima had in mind.

[@ZenithintheMaking]

I never really questioned any of this. So practically Classic Chaotix are dead permanently and doesn't have a Classic counterpart. Their solely Modern. That doesn't really get under my skin. I understand why Modern can't go to Classic, but there's no excuse why Classic can't go to Modern. That gets under my skin I guess some characters like Fang, Bean, Bark and I guess the non-existent Honey simply won't fit in the story but they could go AROUND that and make the story fit them. Find some way. They can go make a game practically reintroducing them in a new light that makes them feel like new characters and yet we know that they existed in the past(except for Honey) And most importantly Mighty and Ray definitely should be a part of the Sonic Heroes(Modern cast) no question. I would insist that they look back at the Archie Comics and use some of that back. Like literally this is perfect Ray and Charmy can be best buds while they connect with Team Chaotix too😣 There is this one bright side though I guess. Sticks will be in a game( a NOT Boom game ) someday 🤟

[@carlosbleu7396]

In fact, Honey already appeared in a Sonic game: I know how she was developped but her first appearance was as a DLC in Sonic the fighters in 2012 before be used in the comics. I know that her first introduction was strange but she is still a video game character and a Sonic character.

[@KCRMM03]

my headcanon is that the Chaotix only knew Knuckles and Mighty until the evens of Heroes that's why classic sonic doesn't interact with them.

[@greensoda123]

This rule would explain a lot why The Hard Boiled Heavies aren't allowed in Modern Sonic. That also means if the Freedom Fighters returned they would most likely be classic characters.

[@ZenithintheMaking]

Now I would say that would be a nice idea. That would full up the Classic Universe more if they plan on not making it Past and Present anymore( which I highly hope they don't. It just makes sense. Classic came before Modern. It's facts)

[@nickrayer3776]

The thing is that the whole sonic team theory is that Vector was a Sonic Team creation long before Sonic 1 was even released. He was a part of Sonic's Rock Band. So clearly, someone at Sonic Team designed those characters and hell back to the Japanese website, Even Sticks The Badger, a strictly USA creation, has her own page. So, I don't think that theory works as well. Even Charmy Bee was a creation from the early Sonic Manga, and he got into Knuckles Chaotix so.

[@StellaFangX]

The problem is the licensing, which means they don't have the papers or they don't give a damn to reinvent it.

[@AndrewAndroid1]

Chaotix was actually made by the same branch of sonic team who made cd, so they all are sonic team characters

[@ZenithintheMaking]

If that's the case then I guess they just felt like rewriting them 🤷🏿‍♂️

[@galten7361]

The Chaotix were just retooled for the Adventure Era games like how Amy was retooled so that she was closer to Sonic's age with a more developed body (having a bust) and becoming a character who takes part in the action.

[@KOTSOSMC2002]

What mysterious disappearance? Knuckles' Chaotix came out mid-way through 1995, roughly 2 and a half years before the release of Sonic Adventure and essentially the "death" (more like hiatus) of the Classic Era to make way for the new Adventure Era. Even still, the Chaotix were very relevant in the franchise, still being a relatively large part of the Archie comics continuity consistently ever since being introduced in the Sonic the Hedgehog Triple Troubel Special released the same year as Knuckles' Chaotix. As well as having a HUGE impact on Sonic the Comic immediately after their introduction in issue 53, again in 1995. Aka they became kinda big since their inception. Sonic didn't have much to provide in the years 1996 and 1997, only providing occasional spin-off nobody cared for. Even still, the Chaotix prevailed, not only through their Archie and StC presence but also Espio's appearance in Sonic the Fighters in 1996. Regardless, Sonic Adventure happens (first mainline game since S3&K), then Sonic Adventure 2, all the spin-offs in-between and surrounding these games either focusing on the main 4 (Sonic, Tails, Knuckles and Amy) or new characters like Cream and her friends and family in the Advance games. Then boom, there comes Heroes 2 mainline games after S3&K and whaddya know, the Chatotix aren't only here but are 3 of the 9 protagonists of the game, having their very own campaign. Then you know how it goes, they remain to this very day (ShtH, Rivals 2, Free Riders, Colors DS, Forces, TSR, all the Sonic Channel stuff, IDW, Murder of), appearing in other continuities like Vector in Sonic Boom, all of em in Sonic X and again all of them in the movie universe (they're in the official canon prequel comic released with the second film). "But these are the Modern Chatotix" but I'll pull the "UH-HA!" card on that argument by stating SEGA and Sonic Team's official word on the matter, that Classic = Modern, Classic is Modern's past and Modenr is Classic's future, they're both the same timeline, same cast, same everything. My point being? There was never a mysterious "Classic Chaotix" disappearance, they quite literally never left. Even in the franchise's most uneventful years they managed to have a presence. Even if anyone where to use the "still their Classic interpretations are different" I think Sonic the Fighters, Archie and Fleetway (all depicting the Chatotix's quote on quote Classic versions) are testament to how factually false this overall statement truly is. Nothing personal, fun video and you seem lovely, just saying ✌️

[@iamcat1797]

Now that I think about it, Your theory that they didn’t like the Chaotix at first since they weren’t a team Sonic creation could explain why they have the hardest level in Sonic heroes. I mean does anyone else find it weird that the Chaotix who at this point didn’t get much of an interaction with the fans got the hardest level? Maybe they were hoping that it would be so hard we would hate them then they wouldn’t have to use them again but unfortunately of them we ended up loving everything about them (or at least I do)

[@hirotrum6810]

classic chaotix is like sonic team's raichu. Must be hidden from the public for the sake of brand consistency

[@bluekel615]

Pointless minor spoiler that I'm going to dig deep into for no reason: Knuckles claims to have known Vector for a long time in The Murder of Sonic the Hedgehog. The thing is, if Sonic Heroes is the first canon game to feature them, then he would either have to be talking to Barry the Quokka (the player character,) Blaze the Cat, or Knuckles Chaotix is canon. Tbh the first one is the most likely.

[@HyperSonic1999orJTH]

It could also be that the creator's of non ST characters want royalties for the use of said character(s) in the games, so they restrict them to art and social media use to reduce the costs they have to pay to the creators. The Chaotix most likely had their majority ownership transferred over to ST.

[@Godzilla84Army]

I Like Classic Espio, He Looks Cooler Than His Modern Counterpart

[@amejade]

Have you read the post reboot Archie comic? There all of the characters you mentioned from the classic continuity (minus the Chaotix obviously) have modern re-designs in line with the main game cast

[@amejade]

@SOME GUY AND... WHATEVER well the archie comic is simply called "SONIC THE HEDGEHOG" but the in universe event that caused the reboot was the "Super Genesis Wave" caused from the final battle between Sonic, Mega Man, Eggman, and Wily in the first Sonic and Mega Man crossover series, which sent Sonic back to his world but with everything permanently altered. Most people just call it the "Post Genesis Wave Era" and for the most part it's one big Sonic Unleashed adaptation

[@ARedFellow]

Modern Mighty appears in a Knuckles chaotix anniversary image and in minecraft dlc, So yea

[@aortaplatinum]

I know it's sort of an April Fool's joke, and of course I want to come in and dismantle your entire argument, but I've actually gotta strengthen it. Those mobile games you mentioned with the non-SonicTeam characters aren't SonicTeam games, they're Hardlight- the inclusion of comic and movie characters is between Hardlight, SEGA, and the rights holders for the characters themselves. Additionally, SEGA has been known in the past to be extremely strict with rules and mandates and regulations, to the point a friendly rivalry between SEGA Japan and SEGA America during the 90s quickly turned brutal, with the death of the Saturn and Hayao Nayakama reportedly abusing his staff, verbally and physically, for not keeping up with the American branch's output. And finally, as much as I hate to enforce stereotypes, I've seen far too many Japanese companies exhibit xenophobia for it to be a coincidence- and it makes sense, Japan is factually and historically a very xenophobic culture. So since a large chunk of these non-SonicTeam characters are produced by Americans and Europeans, it's not gonna fly. There's a reason there's a specific word for "filthy foreigner" in Japanese...

[@armoredplacoderm]

Charmy and Vector were created by Sonic Team. I think these branding decisions developed more organically and we just are where we are. When Heroes came out there was no plan to segregate between modern and classic. Could honestly be as simple as just keeping some characters exclusive to each sub-brand to differentiate them.

[@WASDCVBN]

Honestly I think the reason the Classic Chaotix weren't shown was because Mighty was apart of the Chaotix, and because of the easter egg in sonic generations people are gonna question what happened to Mighty and why he went missing

[@FrancisL4D]

Actually sonic's love for chili dogs first appeared in the uk fleetway comics Sonic the comic.

[@KiddKyle67]

Yeah, this splitting of continuity is so dumb. The series continuity is already so fucky that they might as well just have fun and use any characters they want; like late Archie did.

[@RubyCarrots3232]

This reminds me that the comics don't seem to have that rule.

[@bluespheresguy2306]

Nintendo also does not ‘like’ non nintendo made characters for axemple daisy and walawugi

[@justinarzola4584]

Also why you'll never see king harkinian or morshu in a main Zelda game which is a damn shame, MAH BOI.

[@BJSolar02]

And I love Daisy

[@DrCocofruit]

My sibling said this could've happened for Archie Characters if they wanted their characters canonised. I didn't believe it at first but damn seems very true

[@VirtuaMaster]

Missed the part where Tangle is referenced in Frontiers as well!

[@phzuh]

babe wake up the goat just posted

[@Brozbluegamerz]

We need to talk about heavy and bomb not just these 3

[@roco1998]

I liked the video and I do think you bring up a good point, but I think to put it simply the reason why the way it is to keep the brands stand out and separate, is if Classic-only characters appeared in Modern then what’s the point with keeping Classic around, and SEGA still wants to keep Classic Sonic around cause it still makes them money (well they are probably not gonna do much with him after Superstars sales) But after recent events like how TailsTube and the Fang 30th anniversary comic confirms Knuckles Chaotix is indeed canon on top of all that Vector making a small cameo in the Amy 30th anniversary comic, it seems like the Classic Chaotix is slowly making a comeback and SEGA is slowly opening up to Knuckles Chaotix, I think it was canon before because of Knuckles’ Chaotix poor reception and SEGA doesn’t want anything to do with it at the time, but with the announcement of a Knuckles 30th comic by IDW that should be coming out around October is where I think we will finally and properly see the return of the Classic Chaotix, with the only difference being that the Classic Chaotix’s characterization and personality will be more in line with how they are in Modern.

[@vegetafan9922]

I mean I honestly think if Sonic Team wants the Chaotix to be their own so bad they should retcon the Classic Chaotix to be like their modern selves. Have the reason they were in Knuckles' Chaotix was because they were on a case investigating what was up with this island that suddenly showed up out of nowhere. Sonic Team are no strangers to retconning shit out of nowhere like the two worlds and Classic characters being from another dimension retcon and then suddenly retconning it back to normal. Just release a TailsTube episode where he interviews the Chaotix and they clear this whole thing up. (and then re-release Knuckles' Chaotix for Origins Plus.)

[@Pariah6950]

If you want to get nitpicky, they technically can't do that because the Chaotix don't know Eggman in Heroes. But as you said, pesky things like continuity have never stopped them before. And I think we can all agree that ninja Espio is much cooler.

[@ZenithintheMaking]

If they recreate the old game with the new modern characterizations of them then that would fix all the issues. Then everyone can be in the Modern Universe now too 😣

[@rynobehnke8289]

@@Pariah6950 I mean lets be real post SA2 is it already a a issue for Heroes it self that anyone wouldn't know who Eggman is.

[@galten7361]

Two Worlds and Classic were never retcons. The first always meant an artistic statement where depending on the plot you could see human NPCs or other NPCs like critters. And Classic was always supposed to be set before the Adventure Era up.

[@vegetafan9922]

​​​​​​​@@galten7361In the 2010's when Izuka was asked where all the humans from the Adventure games, '06, and Unleashed were in the Meta era he responded with there being two worlds. "Sonic's World", where it was populated by "Mobians" and the main cast and Earth, where it was populated by humans and the main cast. As for the Classic era being another dimension, Tails says that when Classic Sonic shows up in Forces. Both of those retcons have been de-retconned in the TailsTube videos back to being just Earth with humans and "Mobians" living on it and the Classic era being the past.

[@PikachuGamerSMT]

This makes sense as they STILL hate the Chaotix (besides Vector probably due to him being a scrapped Sonic 1 character)

[@feller11]

Talking about Chaotix being not a Sonic Team game. There was no established Sonic Team before Nights. Are Sonic 2-3-CD not canon then? Also Chaotix shared many developers with Sonic CD, and at least one of them (Hoshino) also participated in Adventure 1-2 and Heroes development.

[@felipe_drawmania1604]

Even if that's true,apparently whatever they had in the past is now considered to have been Sonic Team,since sources state that they were founded in 1990.

[@feller11]

@@felipe_drawmania1604 Yes there is this "Sonic Team presents" in Sonic 1. But then some devs went to US and some stayed in jp, so Sonic team no longer existed

[@felipe_drawmania1604]

@@feller11 As far as "Sonic Team not existing",I don't see sources on that. It kinda feels like whenever key members were on Sonic Team,they were still considered to be part of Sonic Team even after the separation.

[@feller11]

@@felipe_drawmania1604 Well I agree with that. But still, Sonic Team didn't officially exist before Nights

[@felipe_drawmania1604]

​@@feller11 I guess them "not existing" didn't matter since that got retroactively added once they did start existing.

[@lasercraft32]

This is a certified Waluigi moment.