PART 12 - Long Block Assembly - How to Build a CB Performance 2017cc Builder’s Choice VW Engine

I have to apologise for the VERY long post. Things didn't quite go to plan and I wanted to share all the problems I had along the way. So, here I'm assembling the long block. I've already set the rocker geometry, looked at compression ratio and cut the push rods to length. A simple case of fitting the pistons, barrels, pushrod tubes and rocker assembly. I say simple, BUT IT WASN'T. I had problems with the push rod tubes supplied by CB Performance. They simply didn't fit. This led me down a bit of a rabbit hole. Hence the VERY LONG post, Hahahahaha.

[@yewboup1]

I love how focused you are amongst the cacophony of children and birds. Well done.

[@patrickmclaughlin6013]

The best part of these videos is knowing I'm not alone, everyone, even experts, have problems. Just solve the problem and keep going.

[@aircooledanything2415]

Now ain't that the truth!!!

[@doubled398]

Just think the next engine you do you will be a master

[@willeb3]

Looks like I am about 7 months behind the times. I do have the same 2017 motor you built in this series and I find your experience very helpful as I work my way through this thing. Built a half a dozen American V8s and a Harley V twin, but this motor is like an alien spacecraft. Your videos have been extremely helpful and I refer to them regularly. Looking forward to seeing how this worked out for you.

[@aircooledanything2415]

Hello, glad the vids are of help. I'm really behind on posting.been slow going for me. You'll probably overtake me. Hahahahaha.

[@davidkline4372]

I'm in the same boat as you. Following ACA for guidance as I build my kit up. Good stuff!

[@willeb3]

@@davidkline4372 Yes, he is good. There are other videos out there I found helpful for the little stuff he does not cover.

[@sickvet9996]

Those racing push rod tubes specifically say they use a special seal -- 1566 Racing Push Rod Tube Seals, not sure if that would make up the difference on the fit.

[@michaelvadney5803]

Thanks for this video by the way.

[@johncapua193]

Amazing that you didn’t lose it there. Why not contact CB and ask what the hell is up! But I like the SS tubes better anyway.

[@daveshaffer4593]

You are an amazing soul my friend... Your patience is remarkable! Great content. Thank you for all you do.

[@davidkline4372]

The struggle is real! Thank you for this video. Super informative as I continue to also build up my 2017 kit from CB. I wonder if the racing push rod tubes you recommended were a defect? Regardless, the length is surely incorrect as you surely found out. I just ordered a set of the SS windage tubes based on your experience. Your videos are great. I'm looking forward to you getting yours in your bus and seeing how it runs. I'm also paranoid about the sufficient level of cleanliness I've done to my case... Keep em coming!

[@a080867]

Nice work, and persistence. I often have to walk away from my engine builds, to calm my nerves. I built an engine, that’s in my 73 super, with 1to4 rockers, and cromemolly pushrods. I had similar problems with the tubes. In the end, I did just what you did. It worked out fine. Best of luck to you. Keep the videos coming.

[@aircooledanything2415]

I knew it.I knew I couldn't be the only person to have had problems with push rod tubes. I searched around but couldn't find any information out there on it. Although I am pretty rubbish at searching. Maybe I should do a separate clip on just that?

[@bwm999]

I made a simple jig to compress the tubes to the correct length (191mm for 69mm crank). Two plywood disks with a hole matching the shoulder of the tube and a length of threaded stud / two sockets / washers / nuts. Back in the day, the tubes needed a little stretch to be the correct size but the currently available items are a bit longer out the box

[@aircooledanything2415]

That sounds like a great idea. I'm pretty sure that if the tubes could be compressed in a more controlled manner then they would fit. I think that's something to definitley try next time.

[@vintage76vipergreenBeetle]

👍 Great info on the pushrods tubes.

[@charliemessenger6537]

After all the hard work leading up to this point, who would have thought push rod tubes would be your biggest nemesis. I looked on the CB site for any info on the tubes but there doesn't seem to be much data other than they're for 1500 & 1600 based engines. I believe you would beg to differ! At least you got the pretty ones to work (hopefully). She's starting to come together. Now, about what's under the blue plastic...hmm?

[@aircooledanything2415]

It's crazy that CB supplied the tubes and they clearly don't fit. Hahahahaha. The blue plastic contains an Okrasa motor that I will be finishing up directly after this project and fitting to a very nice bus I just got. I'm very excited about that one. I'll post up when I get to it in a few months time.

[@RStark-tm1jc]

Hey mate, I'm a non professional engine builder, I have built several vw dub motors over the years and it looks like your rocker arm blocks are up side down. please do your research and verify. good luck, looks awesome.

[@bwm999]

Only at the start of the video … however the split in the rocker mounting block should be upwards. That’s so the splashing oil gets in there.

[@bwm999]

On type 4 engines the rocker block split faces down but on Type1 it faces up. Bentley manual has a photo with arrows marked, just to highlight this point, for both type4 & Type1 versions.

[@scottm4894]

The push rod tubes being long is one thing, but the push rod tubes not even fitting into the holes in the head is crazy, CB Performance screwed something! Those tubes can't be made for that head. And this is a kit.

[@aircooledanything2415]

I know right? To be fair to CB the push rod tubes are not a part of the kit. BUT I did order them from CB at the same time as a ton of other parts and they were recommended by them. After a fruitless telephone conversation with the sales team I have emailed Pat Downs (the main engine builder and all round big cheese at CB) to see what light he can shed on the matter.

[@davidkline4372]

@@aircooledanything2415 Have you heard back from Pat?

[@bedlamite42]

I don't recall if you checked the ring gap. VW's usually like a little more than the usual recommended .004" per inch of bore, I use .016-.020" for N/A performance engines.

[@REEPER_ONE]

does this still apply to all of the new tooling and new materials and technology and such for these engines? I have noticed these engines getting more and more powerful than the ones I read and watched videos about from 30 years ago

[@aircooledanything2415]

Well spotted. I have to confess that I didn't check the ring gaps. Let's hope that doesn't prove fatal. I have a terrible track record with piston rings. I have all the tools to remove and fit them, and a gap grinding wheel to set the gaps, BUT I always end up breaking a ring when fitting. I'm terrified of them. So on this one, as the rings are already fitted, I decided to go with them out the box. A bit foolish I know.

[@aircooledanything2415]

Good question Silver Skrubb. I've not read or seen any information on this.

[@bedlamite42]

@@REEPER_ONE yes it still applies. Ring gap is for heat expansion. If you build a turbo, you're going to need .018-.022. for a water cooled n/a car a 90.5mm piston can use .014-.018.

[@michaelctanner]

Nice Hazet Assistent, btw

[@chrisbegger8684]

Great info on the CB race pushrod tubes. I was about to order some, but after seeing your troubles, I think I will do a bit more research first?

[@aircooledanything2415]

I appear to be the only person I can find who has had this trouble.

[@REEPER_ONE]

no wonder it took so long to release this, its nearly 2 hours long!

[@aircooledanything2415]

I'm so sorry. I'm not only learning about these motors I'm also learning about YT. I think twenty mins should be the goal right?

[@diernosaj]

@@aircooledanything2415 Nah man, I would watch this entire build in one cut if you did it that way. keep it up. Don't listen to the YT gestapo.

[@cgip1220]

I'm confused on the push-rod tubes. Did you call Pat Downs or Mark Lawless? I checked the parts list and it does show #1595 tube, which is there race style. I think you would have saved hours by getting them involved. I would have also called them on the valve cover studs. Pretty sure that was a misprint. Torquing the nut to 13 pounds and the threaded extension to 16 pounds doesn't make sense. You looked like you might have stretched the extension. I was waiting for it to snap.

[@aircooledanything2415]

I can see why you;re confused,pretty much every pro engine builder I spoke to said they didnlt understand why those tubes wouldn't fit, but they most certainly didn't. I'll give the guys at CB a call and see what they say. Not sure what you mean by stretching the extension on the valve cover studs. Do you mean the actual stud? If so I guess I might have stretched it. I'll ask the CB guys when I enquire about the tubes. I thought 16 ft lbs was a bit mild. Kind of felt like they could be a bit tighter. I'll ask.

[@aircooledanything2415]

Hey Bill. I just got off the phone to the CB guys. None of the engine building team were available to talk. I spoke to two people and they both as confused as me and you. They have no idea why they're not fitting. They've asked me to email them a few pics and a clip of the problems, along with measurements of the tubes. I also asked about the rocker assembly torque values and they said I should follow the assembly instructions. Not very helpful. They then went on to say stock rocker studs and nuts should be torqued to 18 ft lbs, but that they never bother with that and just tighten by hand until they feel it;s tight enoigh. So all in all not a great deal of help. I'll send them the email and see what comes back. Ivel emailed them before and Pat replied that time - he knows what hes doing for sure. So hopefully we'll find out what the problem was. I'll keep you posted.

[@scottm4894]

It did look like you were over tightening the nuts that hold valve cover. That looked like a torque much higher than "snug".

[@aircooledanything2415]

@@scottm4894 Hahahaha, that's just me making it look like a lot of effort. The nuts were done a 13 ft lbs and the studs a wee bit more. If anything they're a little too loose.

[@nogger1956]

I was going to get CB performance kit but after this push rod palaver I don't think I'll bother.

[@dart9sales901]

Wow how patience and relaxed you react I would have thrown everything around a sit crying :-) As you say this doesn't look normal Will check previous video about the valve lifter again You've calculated everything out and it was ok Longer lifters and gaskets will affect your compression I think Remember you did the volume check of the cylinder head Question: isn't the paste you use a a gasket going to overheat and vanish or dry out ? Also noticed you didn't check the valve rings I read your answer and share understand but doing so much work you should be sure Keep up the work I really like your video's I hope you will enjoy this engine How much HP is it btw Frits

[@aircooledanything2415]

AThanks for the kind words. I'm hoping for around 150 bhp. That's what CB advertised with this setup. Sadly I have no plans to put it on a dyno, so we'll never know. I know,not looking at the ring gaps is a worry. I also had a wobble with the rod nuts - where I put loctite and the ARP torque paste on, which is apparently not a good thing. I'm sure there are plenty of other blunders too - like not honing the cylinders for example. I'm also super paranoid that I haven't kept the internals clean enough. The sealant I used on the cylinders should cope with the temp of the engine. There's a master VW Builder here in the UK who makes Formula V engines (his engines have won the past five or six years here in the UK). He doesn't use any sealer. He says it's not necessary, althought I'm sure he laps the cylinders in by hand. Which is something I will be doing on my next project.

[@bedlamite42]

The CB tubes work fine if you use longer rods. I would have used 5.5 or 5.6 instead of 5.4 along with spacers under the cylinders. That would have also let you get a better deck height.

[@aircooledanything2415]

Longer rods would have definitely helped the situation. I think 5.5 inch rods wouldn't be enough - the tubes were wildly off. 5.6 might have been better, just. The deck height wasn't bad actually as it stands, but spacers would definitely allow me to fine tune that. The thing that's annoying is that this is a kit that's designed to go together and it didn't at this stage. This is the first high power engine I'm working on (I know it's not that high power, but compared to the near stock motors I've done in the past it is). In future I will definitely be selecting my own components. Hahahaha.

[@cgip1220]

sorry tubes are #1565

[@1965mt]

There are 2 points. I have the same kit and the push rod tubes go all the way in on mine. The next is that the diameter of the stock style tubes is 20mm but the CB heads are cut for 24mm. How did you accommodate the different diameters between the stock style tubes and the larger head?

[@aircooledanything2415]

This is a very interesting comment and it partly confirms some suspicions I have. The stock tubes fitted perfectly. The flared race tubes simple do not fit. I started a dialogue with Pat Downs at CB about this. I supplied video evidence and photographs to show this and the dialogue ended abruptly. I suspect CB realised something was not right and didn't want to admit a mistake. I wonder if the heads they supplied are an older cast? The CC measurement of the heads certainly points to that. Anyhow, I'm a few posts behind and I can say that I have found a satisfactory workaround myself and CB, despite chasing them up, have still not responded.

[@davidkline4372]

Hello friend! I just completed this part of the build and noticed no clear indication that a head gasket is to be installed at the top of the cylinders. Looking online I see allusions to copper cylinder gaskets and saw the kit comes with paper cylinder gaskets. I also found info on the samba that somewhere don't use gaskets there at all. I don't know what is correct. I haven't reached out to CB yet but thought I'd ask you since we are doing the same build. Any thoughts? Dave

[@aircooledanything2415]

Hi Dave. Yeah. no need for a gasket here. The copper gaskets can be used to back off compression ratio if necessary. The cylinders and heads are machined to create a leak free seal. Good luck.

[@michaelvadney5803]

No one from CB actually has a manual for assembling their engine kits do they? Just old engine build article collected into repackage books. Have you found anything good?

[@aircooledanything2415]

No. They have nothing. Which is kind of why I started to post all this up. At the end of it I’m going to attempt to edit it all down to one clip, just keeping the essential information. Not sure how that will work though.

[@michaelvadney5803]

@@aircooledanything2415 excellent! Thanks for this as I will be buying one of these kits for a '63

[@aircooledanything2415]

@@michaelvadney5803 No problemo! '63 Bug? Which kit you going for? Have you any experience building engines?

[@michaelvadney5803]

@@aircooledanything2415 Probably a 2110, nothing too wild. I have completely assembled only two engines previously and I stress "assembled". An engine builder to me must have a good understanding of how all of these parts work with or against each other. My engines ran fine, but there was definitely some blunders.

[@aircooledanything2415]

@@michaelvadney5803 Sounds like you're coming from a very similar place as me. I've only assembled and mildly modified a handful of engines previously. Hence going with this kit. Having experience with the eternals of a stock type 1 motor I'd say is essential, which is what you have. You know what each component does, and if you need more information you can find it online. You'll be fine.

[@mikehammer4546]

Wow, what a nightmare on the pushrod tubes. What did CB Performance say about your dilemma?

[@aircooledanything2415]

Hey Mike. You know what, I didn't contact them. I should though right. They might shed some light on what the problem was.

[@michaelctanner]

You‘re up late…😅

[@aircooledanything2415]

Hahahahahaha. The post was so HUGE it took hours to upload. Sorry about that.

[@michaelctanner]

Thought as much😁 No need to be sorry - top notch content! Thanks for it all👍