Part Three: Why Did Robert E. Lee Turn Traitor? | BEHIND THE BASTARDS

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Part Three: Why Did Robert E. Lee Turn Traitor? | BEHIND THE BASTARDS
Robert and Prop continue the story of Bobby Lee to the climax of his life: his decision to turn traitor and fight for the Confederacy.
Original Air Date: February 20, 2024
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There’s a reason the History Channel has produced hundreds of documentaries about Hitler but only a few about Dwight D. Eisenhower. Bad guys (and gals) are eternally fascinating. Behind the Bastards dives in past the Cliffs Notes of the worst humans in history and exposes the bizarre realities of their lives. Listeners will learn about the young adult novels that helped Hitler form his monstrous ideology, the founder of Blackwater’s insane quest to build his own Air Force, the bizarre lives of the sons and daughters of dictators and Saddam Hussein’s side career as a trashy romance novelist.
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[@renshin4603]

Oh come on now. "What's losing my confederacy?" was RIGHT THERE.

[@AnonymousAnarchist2]

Underrated comment of the year. Calling it. Right now. For the entire year

[@ericjohnson6105]

The crazy thing about the monuments is that Benedict Arnold actually has a monument. It isn't named, and it only depicts his boot. Meanwhile you cant go anywhere in the south without seeing a library, school, street or monument to the "great" traitors of the Civil War.

[@joshv.1490]

Arnold deserves better. He's far less a scumbag than half the historical figures that get held up as heroes. He kicked ass and most of what resulted in his downfall was maligning those in power around him. Basically if you show up your boss at work and find yourself passed over for promotions consistently to where you bail on the company you'll find yourself in similar shoe.

[@tetsatou2815]

@@joshv.1490 Mood.

[@marocat4749]

And he wasnt actually a traitor. So , he doesnt deserve that slander.

[@ericjohnson6105]

@marocat4749 which traitor, the guy whose name is synomous with it, or the guy that lead an army against the United States?

[@sampagano205]

​@@joshv.1490The modern apologizem for Benedict Arnold is insane. You're seriously going to justify treason on the grounds that he was passed over for promotion? insane bullshit he deserved the same sour apple tree Jeff Davis deserved.

[@RexytheRexy]

Prop episodes are some of my favorite episodes. His presence guarantees brilliance. Any BTB episode is great, but the combo of you, Prop, and Sophie is something special.

[@wolfeski]

I definitely think prop is definitely unique for the ability to communicate he developed as a special ed teacher, and that reflects on the BTB audience's appreciation of him. That being said he could definitely benefit from watching love on the spectrum season 2 when the autism therapist is coaching tanner to ask questions about other people's opinions.

[@shinyskunk]

Yeah I appreciate Prop's unique ability to translate the sometimes academic tone of some of the readings into plain English, and to use analogies to make some of this stuff easier to understand. Props to Prop.

[@TheDarthbinky]

Prop and the Some More-ons are my fav guests.

[@r.w.bottorff7735]

Prop always brings the best energy and jokes to his guest appearances, these episodes wouldn't have the same punch without him . Thank you, righteous bastards!

[@ImperialGeneral]

I just want to say before we get to the "was Lee a good general or not" portion, his orders to Ewell at Gettysburg to "take that hill (Culp's Hill) if practicable" were literally the first example of how not to give clear, precise orders to subordinates that I learned in ROTC in college. It's right up there with the orders given right before the Charge of the Light Brigade in the list of 'famously unclear orders that lead to unnecessary deaths.' I've also never heard that alternative telling of Lee meeting with Winfield Scott before. That's certainly not the version they went with in Gods and Generals, and I suspect if more people hear that it would definitely kneecap a lot of middle school history buffs from defaulting to just accepting all the lost cause myths as facts without any further introspection.

[@therideneverends1697]

I think its also telling to his general wishsy washy personality that even in the heat of battle the most firmness he can muster is "DO THAT THING, if, you can atleast, if not dont worry about it"

[@ImperialGeneral]

@@therideneverends1697 Yeah, not aggressive enough in pushing his subordinates to follow up success, then too aggressive in not listening to subordinates advice to not be drawn in to attacking a fortified enemy without clear idea of where his reserves are coming from culminating in ordering a hyper aggressive Napoleonic style frontal assault at the enemy's center.

[@therideneverends1697]

@@ImperialGeneral The perfect mix of stubborn enough not to listen to others, but unsure enough to not be concrete in his own volition

[@thelastholdout]

If it weren't for Dan Sickles' monstrous incompetence on the second day of the battle, Lee's defeat at Gettysburg would have gone from a titanic struggle to a crushing, embarrassing defeat for the Confederacy. The absolute lion's share of Union casualties came from the total destruction of Sickles' corps and the sacrifice of all the troops Meade had to throw into the fray just to keep his lines from collapsing.

[@TheDarthbinky]

The Crimean War - which was extensively covered in the media of the time and everyone knew what was going on - had already shown that "linear formations in a time where rifles and artillery are pretty damn accurate is a really bad idea" and all these stupid Civil War generals were just like "fuck it, let's stick with what we know." And so many thousands of soldiers died because generals didn't want to change. Hey, it worked against the hapless Mexican army 20 years ago, might as well just keep fuckin doing it. This is why I refuse to accept any Civil War generals as being particularly good at their job. Getting your men slaughtered because you refuse to embrace change doesn't make you a good officer. I'll give guys like Grant and Sherman credit for at least trying to end the war, even if they were pretty brutal at times. But not Lee, fuck that guy.

[@damejanea.macdonald2371]

If Robert Lee fought against slavery, he would have to admit that, as of last episode, he is the kind of man who would strip a human being naked and beat her ruthlessly in a fit of anger, because that's the conclusion you'd have to make upon recognizing that slavery is bad.

[@thecountalucard666]

The “Who Was” book for Martin Luther King, I expect, will make you livid, considering how hard they push the “anti-rioting” angle.

[@thelastholdout]

It's been incredibly satisfying seeing you guys take a sledgehammer to Lee's unearned legacy. I wish you had a companion series called "Behind the Based" and an episode where you cover Ulysses Grant, because he's Lee's opposite in just about every way that matters, with minimal bastardry to tarnish him.

[@Hk121394]

Could also add Smedly Butler to that

[@thelastholdout]

@@Hk121394 I've never heard of him before! I'm reading about him now.

[@dylanrodrigues]

Maybe Robert could do a Christmas episode on Grant or Sheridan?

[@GilTheDragon]

Bronze is what we use because it also doesn't rust, & was used for currency

[@sampagano205]

Bronze doesn't rust in the sense that rust is literally iron oxide. It's still corrodes.

[@GilTheDragon]

@@sampagano205 it oxidizes but doesn't corrode into mush. the patina it develops keeps the metal pretty much intact & just as remeltable as the day it was cast; the patina also melts back into tin-copper & doesn't form dross. That's why we have almost no classical bronze. 3000 year old spear, 500 year old praxiteles... Chuck it into the crucible, make some structural ties, make a new statue, cast a bell.for the cathedral

[@JayBagent]

Hes not a Robbie or a Bobbie, hes a Bobbert!

[@marocat4749]

Trueee, through even he woulsnt do that at a cinema.

[@Burningsok5]

You guys really need to add Atun-shei on here. The history dump would be even crazier.

[@alejandrorivas4585]

I get the impression they wouldnt necessarily get along. But id love to be proven wrong. Especially with the finale of vheckmate lincolnites around the corner

[@0sm1um76]

​@@alejandrorivas4585I know Atun Shei is friends with and a frequent collaborator with Karl Kasarda of the inrange KZbin channel, and Karl has been a guest in this podcast so I suspect they would get along fine. I actually found this podcast from Karl plugging it.

[@eustatic3832]

What s losing my cause

[@EvilGenius007]

What's causing losses

[@ericsmith5919]

@@EvilGenius007 Sherman and Grant

[@Byzas000]

What's turning my traitors?

[@Advent3546]

That's the one

[@Queenfan999]

That's Lee in the corner That's Lee in the spotlight Losing confederacist cause

[@thomaskalinowski8851]

I think that if Lee had ended up fighting for the Union he would have been just like McClellan -- a not-particularly-competent general who doesn't actually want to beat the enemy because he agrees with them.

[@thelastholdout]

He would have also lasted about as long as McClellan, kicked through the revolving door to make way for the next general until Grant was free to take over and win the war for real.

[@FTZPLTC]

Man, the quotes towards Lee at the end should be sent to every "Not pro Trump but *shrug*" Republican.

[@jordanharper5795]

Lee is just a more successful Ron Desantis

[@fowchiiiliedpuppiesdied]

How embarrassingly ignorant.

[@jordanharper5795]

@@fowchiiiliedpuppiesdied nice try, meatball Ron. We know it's you

[@miguelvelez7221]

Whaaaaat's Federating my Cons?

[@israelhexen8851]

Whaaaaat's conning my federations!

[@sampagano205]

Yeah, for my part I am immediately believe the story about Lee accepting the offer and then turning coat after he leaves their sight.

[@NarffetWerlz]

I was expecting 'What's losing my religion' as the intro. Robert, I'm deeply disappointed in you.

[@khoryos1]

"What's losing my causes!"

[@pjbrown4736]

Memorial Day, I remember how when we'd do a glee club type salute in elementary school, and they had us singing Dixieland. Why? Are we going to do God Save The Queen next. Maybe launch into Deutschland Uber Alles? If we're going to be inclusive to our enemies, why not?

[@richardarriaga6271]

Soviet national anthem has better music than God Save the Queen. But I'd prefer John Brown's body if we are singing about people who lost.

[@marocat4749]

How about the opunk version of god save the queen

[@shaurmiath6719]

Now, to be perfectly fair to bronze, the reason we stopped using it is because it was hard to obtain. Bronze required a source of copper and tin; iron was actually easier to find. The only reason we didn't use iron initially is because we hadn't figured out how to get temperatures high enough to extract iron from its ore yet. But bronze was actually stronger than iron, and it bends less easily. In light of that, I recommend a copper medal for Lee. Make it a big penny, with Lincoln on it.

[@AkuaWalters]

Nothing is funnier than driving through Springfield VA and driving past R.E. Lee Electric and wondering why in the fuck anyone would name their company after a civil war traitor

[@patrickryan7829]

My ancestor from Tennessee fought for the north against his family.

[@kingofsting19]

Gotta give Robert E. Lee the bronze, *at most,* considering he lost to the Union and couldn't beat Mexico. John Brown gets League MVP.

[@minotaur44]

59:50 Hearing that Robert E. Lee was the OG Republican In Name Only and just like today it's for trying to be competent is absolutely hysterical

[@gooseberrygoosusberrius4171]

I always learn a lot from your podcasts, keep up the great research!

[@kwop64]

Absolutely love the podcast! Does anyone know where I can find the sources they use for the show? cause there are some topics I would like to read more into. I looked around and wasn't able to find any that were recent.

[@ShawnWilliams314]

I know there used to he a website where you could track their sources, but it appears that's been removed for some reason. I also checked the iHeartRadio page, and they're not listed there either. So, I don't know if they still have lists of sources anymore.

[@fordprefect8406]

You know, it’s really seemed like these comment sections have been devoid of the lost causers. It’s nice! Maybe they just don’t watch this, but they usually find their way to civil war media no matter what.

[@UntiltedName]

My family had members on both sides of the civil war. There's a sort of unspoken reluctance by older southerners to accept the reality of the situation because many boomers don't want to imagine their great grandpa in that way. I mean, you can go in nearly any rural antique shop in the carolinas and buy little figurines of confederate soldiers still.

[@jasonsmith373]

"...it was almost PGC..." LMFAO!😂

[@ricksimon9867]

Bronze medals exist because sometimes outcomes of races etc. are really close. Imagine the winner running 9.85 seconds, and then the second place finisher 9.91 seconds, and the third place finisher 9.92 seconds. It is only fair that he gets at least some recognition.

[@sampagano205]

For the record Ubre Blanca, fidel castros favorite cow, could have kicked travelers ass.

[@thecountalucard666]

Can’t wait for part 5

[@richardarriaga6271]

Indeed

[@FTZPLTC]

The point about bracing for impact is interesting; a lot of medical professionals would agree I think. Anticipation of pain causes a lot more stress than pain itself.

[@johnmckiernan2176]

Haven't listened to the podcast, but my best guess; did Q send him?

[@VildhjartaFanGurl]

Havent heard the garden of Gethsemane mentioned since "the foetus of a new day kicking" by cradle of filth in 2008.

[@josch5071]

Look I never claimed Robert E Lee was a reasonable man

[@marocat4749]

I like bobbies aproach to history, to show the messy and human , and weird side , to make it relatable. And its really expoanding horizon how chaotic, and messy the world truely is. That people are capable, of a lot. For better and worse. Like i think thats the whole holocause education should be, not only the horrors, but how the horrors vcame to be, how it got there, how easy a country can fall into that .And be aware that, yeah can happen everywhere. and how it basically destroyed the country to the point it had to rebuild a ned identity from ground up-. And how humans, just people are able to be part of that, is more horifying than even the horror that was horrific. Like that should be the takeaway, hey thats studied to death and told, and thats people, just people ther, did that. wit ha small group getting. So i love bobbys aproach to humanize people to build up what terrible stuff they ended doing.

[@jakegarvin7634]

Scott and Lee would make a great movie

[@ricksimon9867]

23:38 - you need to have the right skull I got a very close haircut once, and found out, when I go bald, I am screwed. Cannot make it work AT ALL.

[@sampagano205]

I kinda want to question the aide to McClellans loyalty given how McClellan betrayed the union in the end.

[@jadall77]

I remember watching the ken burns civil war. At around 24 minutes they are talking about who was going to be the general of the union army and it said the senior guy was too fat to get on a horse.

[@gianttv8804]

I know I’m not the only one who thinks this dude sounds like Bomani Jones.😂

[@SesshyLover777]

Bet that alligator was a confederate sympathizer...

[@captainoftheneverdie21]

Waiting for ... the war... I was promised bad general decisions and I await them with baited breath. Also... horse?

[@pscwplb]

There's a whole lot of "Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, but at least it's an ethos" in this episode.

[@aquatictrotsky1067]

I noticed that too and after the first time, it made me kinda uncomfortable. IMO Robert's feelings are valid, but they're also the kind of feelings that are better kept to oneself (at least in contexts like this) because expressing them only functionally serves to whitewash absolutely horrific people (even if unintentionally).

[@pscwplb]

@@aquatictrotsky1067 you do not, in fact, have to hand it to them.

[@marocat4749]

I think its fair to, at least that horrible people stating that arent hiding behind legit causes. i think thats pretty understandable (not that nazis didnt hide weasly behind like "oth they just really care about germany" in image to many people, so cant give it to them.

[@kingalphawerewolf]

No, you do. Because of most of them aren't loud or open about it. Stating openly that you believe something, and will fight for said belief is far heathy for humanity then being a shit fuck coward weasel. To muddy the waters because you're a coward who can't openly admit you just hate insert peoples here, is bad. Because it leads to all those little justifications for it internally that causes far greater harm then if fought over, because it lingers in cultural memory.@@pscwplb

[@THEHAR0LD]

While I understand the instinct to focus on Lee's cowardice (as that is what would hurt his feelings if he were still alive today) I find it offensive as a coward. I would also run away from socially awkward situations like he did, but that's not what is bad about him - it's the slavery and the killing people to maintain slavery. But I guess he would never be able to see that slavery and murder are worse than cowardice, which is another thing that is bad about Lee. EDIT: To me, the cowardly choice would be to sit out the war. Joining the war on the side of slavery isn't cowardice, it's being "brave" (in the sense of fighting a war is inherently dangerous) in the wrong direction. You're risking your life for a cause that is evil. Being willing to die for evil is so much worse than hiding to be neutral.

[@josch5071]

It isn't necessarily brave if you're from a background where sitting out the war would make you a social outcast (or you think it would) and you consider a loss of face worse then death

[@THEHAR0LD]

@@josch5071 Maybe it's a cultural thing, but personally I think if you think loss of face is worse than death, then you haven't really thought through the meaning of death (or have some sort of belief in life beyond that, which is a whole can of worms I don't feel the need to open in the condemnation of slavers).

[@uncleobscurenobody8861]

Based Taoist moment, Zhuangzi enters the comment section

[@VooshSpokesman]

Love from a ChristopherTitus and Vaush fan!

[@mikehjt]

Putting your faith in Simon Cameron, one of the most unscrupulous, corrupt, dishonest men of his age.is a reach. There was a reason why, as Robert notes, Lincoln had Montgomery Blair involved in the whole thing in the first place: Lincoln did not trust Cameron. As slippery as you think Lee was, Cameron was his master there by orders of magnitude. That's why, BTW, Robert has to mention that in mid-62 it was Edwin Stanton who was Secretary of War. And Guelzo, in a lecture after his book on Lee suggests Lee may have gone to Richmond in the fond hope of staving off Virginia's secession, taken the commission for credibility in that role and found himself then, when Virginia did secede, in a position where the easy way out was to stay with Virginia.

[@marocat4749]

He didnt, he said he believes him because its very in character for him here to say that , which is more believable, than lee.

[@dominomasked]

Context is for confederates 🙄

[@DD-zh4by]

I remember when this show was good. Shame.

[@fowchiiiliedpuppiesdied]

Uh, Robert E. Lee was not a bastard, but the makers of this podcast certainly are, for their embarrassing ignorance.

[@TheDarthbinky]

Right. The makers of the podcast gave their sources, but yeah, random guy on the internet who presents no evidence or counterargument is obviously the one who is correct.

[@Ruteekatreya]

Every single human soul who fought for the confederacy and had any choice, whatsoever, in the matter, was to at least some degree, a bastard. Far less of one for a conscript who couldn't justify or manage desertion than a proud officer who absolutely had every ability to just sit things out, perhaps... but a bastard. Sometimes your forbears were bad people. That sucks and all but it's better to just make peace with it.

[@wolfeski]

Prop is incapable of delivering a single unique point he isn't parroting from robert, at least any point related to the conversation.

[@kilgoreplumbus1360]

He's a guest when the format of the show is having guests on and have them be informed about horrible people. I don't see it a necessary the man brings up unique insights on Robert E Lee lol

[@TheCaptainSlappy]

I find it odd Robert kind of dodged all that Congressional Record stuff & "40 Years an American" by T. Nichols on this one. I guess some history is considered...inconvenient & problematic. Even though it's quite public. So off to Pinko Wikipedia we go, I guess.