Pathfinder: WotR - Ranking 199 Classes Part 14: Monk & Archetypes

[@Flagonborn]

Traditional monk also gains better level one saves than a default monk, making it better for a 1 level dip for a wis caster seeking wis to ac

[@turtlejay]

Not just level 1 saves, they have high save progression across all 3 types. I don't know offhand any other classes that get full BAB and 3 high save progression, so just in base stats they are pretty strong.

[@Flagonborn]

@@turtlejay sure, but the further you take it, the more you start to wrestle with its questionable power pics

[@SlanderedGaming]

Gotcha thanks makes sense. I don't make rankings based on dips so it wouldn't have changed the rankings but that's valuable context for the class.

[@turtlejay]

@@Flagonborn Oh, 100%. It is not enough to redeem it or make it a reasonable choice compared to literally any other Monk archetype. It might be that it is a better choice in tabletop, like a lot of the options we are presented with.

[@Matiargentino100]

I always hated that monk is consistently a meh class in every edition compared to other clases, dnd 3.5 and 5e and pathfinder, I think pathfinder 2e redeemed it a lot

[@EastPasco1985]

Slandering your rankings guide is like watching and waiting for the next episode of a sci if or fantasy series … I can’t binge watch it but as soon as it’s out I’m glued to the screen. Keep it up and love to see Afro-American (like myself) loving RPGs.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Thank you! Glad you have been enjoying them!

[@courtgame]

Your not the only one brotha 👊 we out here

[@Wunderkind04]

On Lann, I took three levels in Zen Archer for the Wisdom to hit, then jumped into Colluding Scoundrel Hunter. He now rides a super tanky triceratops in the front line with Aspect of the Falcon for increased Crit chance, and procs AOO for everyone and vice versa. Very fun build!

[@SlanderedGaming]

I took three and jump into Divine Hunter. He's a lot of fun to use.

[@adamc5914]

Someone already mentioned Scaled Fist being a great demoralize build, and I agree with a few extra takes: You get Dragon Style earlier than it is normally available because you can ignore pre-requisites for it as a bonus feat. You save a feat getting Dazzling Display as a bonus feat, because you can skip the Weapon Focus pre-requisite. You still need Weapon Focus for Shatter Defenses, but I choose to skip it and focus on Cornugon Smash + Dreadful Carnage which you can pick up with your regular feat slots because the Dazzling Display pre-requisite is met by the bonus feat. I also like being able to pick up Dodge and Combat Reflexes as bonus feats without having to meet the 13 Dex requirement so you can go full Str/Cha. I think this archetype has some interesting choices you can make and is doing really good damage so far (lvl 10 in rogue-like mode). This doesn't exactly disagree with your analysis or ranking, but I feel like small changes like bonus feat pool can go unnoticed, while actually being pretty impactful when you can ignore some "feat tax" pre-requisites and/or get things early.

[@Offbeaten]

Scaled fist is an *excellent* intimidation monk, shattering defenses and demoralizing just about everything everytime it kills something, one of my favorite ways to play them.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Oh nice yeah that makes sense.

[@notalefty999]

Shame frightful aspect makes the intimidation skill completely redundant once you have access to it. I suppose some classes can convert it into a fear effect, but honestly, this can be rather annoying.

[@ash072]

Monk is one of those classes I have yet to dabble in but everyone says it is very good. Thanks for the tips!

[@SlanderedGaming]

You are so welcome!

[@presidenttogekiss635]

I'd like to point out that Sensei is also an AMAZING mix of tank and tripper because you can use Wisdom + Dex to trip, both of which also give you AC. I LOVE this archtype.

[@mattdespard6576]

One thing that bears mentioning about Sohei (and other restricted pet classes) is that if you start out in a class with unrestricted pet selection, you can continue to progress with the original pet after switching into the restricted class. I played a demon toon in my last play through that was based off a beast rider/sohei shell with a wolf pet and it was both super thematic and very mechanically strong

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup that's something I didn't know before starting this series and I wish I had been aware of it.

[@AncroKT]

Now THAT is a spicy take on Student of Stone, you're the first person I've heard have anything positive to say about it... So now I must try it. Personally I'm a big fan of Quarterstaff Master, there's just something very satisfying about seeing a weapon roll that much damage dice without needing sneak attack to prop it up.

[@SlanderedGaming]

I am a big fan of Student of Stone even though it absolutely doesn't get the damage rolls some other classes do. Agree that QM is also amazing.

[@turtlejay]

My only gripe with quarterstaff master is that it is more MAD than other monk builds that can utilize weapon finesse. Quarterstaff has to use strength, Monks should pump Wis for class abilities, and any frontliner should have at least decent Dex and Con, so you're spreading your stats thinner than if you could ignore strength altogether.

[@AncroKT]

@@turtlejay Eh, really it's only a problem in the early game, plus the QSM doesn't need to be your dedicated main tank. Get them pumped up full of transmutation buffs from your BFA and let Seelah and her mount do their tanking job. By the time you get to act 3 you'll have enough gear where it won't matter. Outside of that damned gargoyle cave, anyway.

[@aciarduce]

Yeah first person to give an above average rating for Oread Monk.

[@notalefty999]

Sohei can still use flurry of blows as normal. It just gets to use it for non monk weapons when you have weapon training.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Ohhhhhhhh okay thank you for noting this sorry I misread it.

[@mattjharrisyahoo]

For the record - I have about 2000 hours in on this game according to GOG, and I still learn tons of useful stuff from these guides.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Thank you! Glad you are enjoying them!

[@klodpraisor]

“Hey guys sex is cool but have you considered dip 2 levels into-“ *Sohei fauchard flurry intensifies*

[@SlanderedGaming]

😂

[@JockoJonson17]

I had Legend 20 Quarterstaff Master / 20 Two-Hand Fighter. Absurd damage and incredible tank. 👍💪

[@DrAkuStrange]

In what order did you take the levels of the warrior and the monk? I want to try to build a build like this.

[@JockoJonson17]

@@DrAkuStrange Don't remember but don't think it matters too much.

[@inoculat0r]

Just found your channel after getting into WotR. Loving your video content and presentation style. Looking forward to catching up with the older vids and checking out a live stream or two.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Thank you! Welcome to the channel!

[@okagisama]

Traditional monk has better saves overall than base one, thus it's ususally preferred as a dip. I believe traditional/base here are similar to base monk/unchained from the ttrpg, and the game includes the unchained one as their main playable monk.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Gotcha thanks makes sense. I don't make rankings based on dips so it wouldn't have changed the rankings but that's valuable context for the class.

[@spectre777na3]

Sohei is the best archer in the game. It gets flurry with bows AND it stacks with rapid shot unlike Zen Archer. A large number of attacks all made at a very high AB by the end of the game.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Oh nice I didn't even think about it as an archer.

[@smack5472]

One thing I noticed about Zen Archer was that it really drops off endgame at least my first playthrough. Lann was a beast early and mid game but by end game he couldn't hit the broadside of a barn where Aru was nailing shots from across the map. But I've also learned a lot since then so we'll see on my current playthrough.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Nope you don't get Legendary Proportions until late game and that's when Lann will really shine for you. Hopefully it works out better on your second playthrough.

[@MinecraftMartin]

First off, thanks for the breakdown. I just want to point out some benefits about Traditional Monk that usually don't get outlined in these comparisons. I've played Monk, Quarterstaff Monk, and Traditional Monk up until mid-Act 3. Traditional Monk is my personal favorite of the 3. Here's my reasoning. Maybe it'll help someone. 1. Traditional Monk is an early bloomer compared to the base class. I'll list the skills that Traditional Monk gets vs All Other Monks -- Wholeness of Body (self-heal) - Trad. Monk lvl 6 vs Base Monk lvl 8 -- Diamond Body (immune to poisons) - lvl 10 vs lvl 12 -- Diamond Soul (spell resistance 10+ monk level) - lvl 12 vs lvl 14 -- Quivering Palm (insta-kill if enemy fails fortitude saving throw) - lvl 14 vs lvl 16 2. By level 12, the traditional monk already has 8 base will save and 22 spell resistance. Base monk at level 12 has 4 base will save and 0 spell resistance. Base monk does catch up a little bit after level 14, but never quite there with the will saves. You probably have a bunch of ki powers you never use. The worst part of traditional monk is you don't have Barkskin. My approach was to make Ember a loremaster and pick it up from the cleric spellbook. Now the entire party has barkskin, and everyone's amulet slots are available for other things anyway. Not having barkskin is a complete non-issue this way. I think Camelia gets barksin as well. My personal rating for Traditional monk is at least an A-. I play a traditional monk (on core) with dexterity / finesse focus and he's competing with Seelah on who is tankier. And personally, traditional monk just hits all the thematic sweet spots. Strong of mind, strong of body.

[@MrBenjarming]

I actually had a big problem with my Student of Stone playthrough. The 20 foot movement speed on a frontliner without a mount made things a sturggle early game, until I could get some access to teleports, and shaitan style just doesn't add enough damage quickly enough to be of much use, especially when it does worse than buffs that even rogues can apply to you. Big issue with Shaitan though is that it's a style, you can only have one monk style active at once, and 9 times out of 10 you're gonna get way more benefit out of crane style, which by level 10/11 is already giving you a +12 to ac with no hit loss, and extra attacks of opportunity, and it's always working, whereas shaitan is limited uses for a lot of its stuff. Thematically I do love it, and that's why I tried a build in it, but I just never felt that tough, that strong, or that useful.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Interesting I will have to try and make a build of it at some point.

[@moonlight2870]

Scaled fist is the best 1 level dip. No contest.

[@DrAkuStrange]

With all my dark soul and antiheroic heart, I want to thank the author of the channel for this cycle of videos. Competent presentation of the material without tediousness and excessive description of the "numbers" is just what I was looking for. One RPG youtuber I subscribed to used to describe pathfinder wotr, but after a quarrel with the developers (the developers were very offended at the criticism of bugs and balance then), he stopped treating them seriously. Just as a joke, but I needed more or less normal guides, since in dnd games I always played only as a monk or only as a priest without multiclassing. I will subscribe to this channel with great pleasure and save the playlist by class. So maybe I'll improve my understanding of English. P.S: for a monk with a staff in the regiment, I would add Ryu Hayabusa from the "modern" ninja gaiden. You should have seen what terrible and brutal things this man with a staff does.

[@awesome27677]

This my mental note to make a legend quarter master and alchemical warrior for the true turtle 🐢 experience.

[@kitwayne4891]

Sending out a high pitched screech and listening for the echo is more like echo location. Tremorsense is feeling subtle vibrations in the ground, like when someone is walking near you. I don't know why they said this the way they did.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Me neither. 😂

[@yaroslavs488]

Sohei is in my opinion is a pure S gameplay-wise and strongest of them all in terms of dmg+reach, but this archetype doesn't feel like a monk at all. Also I really like the idea of making full-dexterity base monk build with focus on CMB to drop everyone on their ass non-stop while avoiding any hits with high reflex saves and legendary AC number. It feels like the most proper way to play monk - you may not have the damage and reach of a full-str warrior, but it feels so well when big scary dragon can't hit you at all while you're dropping their ass to dirt with every full attack

[@cptnstevie]

I like starting Sohei characters with 3 levels of divine Hound to get a dog and share team work feats with him. Time to trip everyone.

[@MuppetLord1]

1 demon slayer / 19 Sohei / 20 mutation warrior legend is insanely powerful. :)

[@yaroslavs488]

@@MuppetLord1 any legend that includes 20 mutation warrior levels is very powerful :D

[@yaroslavs488]

@@cptnstevie I've tried some combined pet build but got confused. So if you go divine hound 3 and then sohei - what pet level you'll get? Or because both classes give access to pet then pet level will be equal to your character level?

[@cptnstevie]

@@yaroslavs488 Since both Divine Hound and Sohei have pets at level 1 which scale with you, they add together and your pet will count both classes level.

[@devoid820]

@slandered gaming you've really got to give is a full build for the student of stone. I've been dying to know what mythic path you'd use to accent this class's unique skill set

[@SlanderedGaming]

Nice after the series is done I'll look into it.

[@papervoxels]

I still have a soft spot for Scaledfist from Kingmaker, but the Sensei actually sounds pretty interesting. Not on its own, but from what I learned about the Skald in Slandered's class breakdown video, that combo might be great for a frontline combatant specializing in providing both passive and active bonuses to their party members during encounters. I'm thinking Iroh from Avatar: The Last Airbender🙂

[@SlanderedGaming]

Oh nice that sounds like an interesting play through.

[@komradisaac4729]

I smell a build inspired by Kenshiro from Fist of the North Star

[@notalefty999]

Traditional Monk is up to +6 will saves for fewer Ki powers and without being able to choose what those powers are. Honestly though, Ki powers arent great. I would say the base monk is better, but its definitely not the gulf between A and F. Daeran (with 2nd mystery nature, which honestly is a complete no brainer), Camellia and Arushalae all get access to barkskin. True sight is seldom worth the standard action it takes to use. The only significant potential increase in damage is cold ice strike if you take the relevant ascendant element, as its a swift action. Given its 4 points of Ki per cast, and the damage still isnt amazing, its a pretty iffy investment of a mythic ability. Everything else is either bad, very situational, or relies on DCs that are just too low to be worth using mid to late game.

[@SlanderedGaming]

For me the question is does Traditional Monk provide a different playstyle from base monk that makes it a valid playthrough on it's own? My answer is no there's absolutely no pull to choose this class and on top of that it takes away functionality from the base class. Being a better dip than Monk does not improve it's ranking.

[@metamud8686]

people often forget True Strike only works on the single next attack roll, thinking instead it lasts for at least all the attacks in a round.

[@aylictal]

sensei is the oddball of the group as it dramatically changes playstyle compared to other monks that want to get in the middle of a fight, this one sits back as a support. its comparable to comparing vivisectionist with the rest of the alchemist subtypes in that it is not played the same as the other archtypes that belong to that group, where a vivisectionist wants to get in the middle of a fight while the other alchemists all play back as support. although its very niche, the sensei is incredibly strong in a caster oriented group focused on spamming rays as truestrike all but guarantees they are gonna land, and not just for things like scorching ray battering blast or hellfire ray, but also ennervation/disintegrate/bestow curse. this could potentially save you two feats per caster because if you are running a sensei your need for point blank shot/precise shot diminishes on each caster you are running and frees your casters up to take more spell DC spell focuses which greatly enhance their expanded arsenal mythics. as i said senseis usually dont run into a fight but hang back in the back with your other casters. you more or less buff everyone with barkskin before combat, then when combat starts, play your song and spam true strike as your full round action. its an interesting support class, but again its nothing like the other monks as you don't even really want to melee that much on it, and honestly since it doesnt get a mount, id recommend putting a bow on a sensei.

[@SlanderedGaming]

I never think of Monks are ranged combatants but yeah this makes a lot of sense mechanically.

[@violau8550]

Man, there are really so many things to learn in this game, so I guess sensei just need to keep put feats on ki pool and spam true strike, reading this comments now only realise how important ki pool for sensei class. By the way there are I think few equiment increas ki pool rights? By the way, since true strike only first hit, maybe should just have 1 or 2 companions with vital strike, and also with combat reflex for more AoO

[@juanrodriguez730]

The secret about Sensei is not use your fists at all, fists are already a pretty questionable weapon even with you have flurry. Get Fauchard proficiency or dip into fighter for better weapons and feat, since s/he is still is a full BAB class it will do you decent damage. In difficult fights, dont attack, get him close to the enemies so he can do AoO from outflank but buff all the party with extra attack plus true strike. Best support in the game imo.

[@SlanderedGaming]

See that's definitely powerful but it feels like something a monk shouldn't be doing. The complete abandonment of using fist is part of what rubs me wrong about the class. LOL

[@aylictal]

best support in the game? not even close when brown fur transmuter is in the game. also paladins (in this specific game) are for the most part better due to mark of justice that works on >90% of encounters in this game, and a mount that lets them run into melee (running into melee as a sensei will get you killed way more than a paladin on a mount will). plus paladins can wear armor unlike the sensei which while not a huge deal, can open up more supportish items (like white dragon armor triggering elemental imbuement). also since the cleric community domain guarded hearth got nerfed to a competence bonus, the sensei song is now much less useful, and comparing a sensei to a cleric in terms of support is pretty much futile. forgot to mention also sensei song is the only song user in the game that doesnt get to use it as a move or swift action like every other song user (they have to use it as a standard action which really hurts). those three classes are all superior in terms of supporting a party than a sensei.

[@chrispaul7595]

Lich quarterstaff monk is fun

[@Pererro4ever]

Ohhh this explains why Lan is so powerful

[@travelg33k]

Doing a first playthrough as a 'proper monk' where I'm planning to take it full 20 levels rather than the usual dips and so far Sohei feels like a S+ to be honest. Having flurry of blows (and the extra attack with ki power) available on glaives (best weapon early due to the free +1 and the amazing weapon from hosilla) while also having the mount for mobility is just such a boom to the early game. I'm not sure if there is another class with this high damage potential early on (when the game is at it's hardest) and I doubt it will fall off much towards the late game either.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Agreed it's fantastic early game but I don't think it reaches the heights some of the other S level classes reach. Will be interested to see what your experience is.

[@travelg33k]

At the end of chapter 3 now and this feels bonkers (this is on core so might not be as strong on higher difficulties just because it's harder to actually hit enemies there). I feel even stronger than an angel or lich at this point, especially after the recent patch that actually added the "lunge" feat. Flurry of blows + ki extra attack + fauchard with lunge for even extra reach while enlarged + improved cleaving finish is just bonkers, while hasted you have 7!! attacks of which 5 at full attack bonus, with the reach of a semi-ranged attack and a 15-20 critical range. I would definitely recommend this for anyone as it's tons of fun, definitely still a S+ for me. (properly buffed I just one turn deleted playful darkness at lvl 15 on core)

[@Flagonborn]

I’d ad that tremor sense SHOULDNT work against anything that is classed as flying making it slightly worse than blindfight. I don’t know if the game actually accounts for that however

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup that is correct however I am pretty sure it doesn't work that way in the game.

[@Kammereer]

As always, neat video. I'll disagree with ranking the monk an A though. Monk is riddled with issues which become especially glaring in the WotR campaign. Desperate need for rare equipment such as fists amulets, inability to deal with DR early in the game* because your fists aren't cold iron, weak progression past early levels, inability to benefit from armor enchantments. I'd argue that 1-20 - monk is the weakest martial class. As a dip - one of the best investments anyone can make. And of course Zen Archer is an exception. * and before someone says you can take a cold iron monk weapon - you are now a worse fighter. We all know people play monks for the kung fu fantasy, not to take Weapon Focus (Kama) 11:50 Is it though? Shaitan Style is still bad even with the improvements from Student of Stone. You'll easily do more damage by taking Dragon Style alone, and that'll save you like 4 feats + Ascendant Element. Similarly, you can't use the vastly superior Pummel Style for trip attacks while you are doing your piddly 1d6 acid damage with the Shaitan Style.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Dragon Style is cheaper and let's you pump out more damage but it would make Student of Stone significantly less cool. Having Tremorsense saves you two feats. Also I've never seen someone use piddly in a sentence before so thanks for the laugh.

[@ChristiantrospectiveGamer]

@NovelEnigma The issue I ran into early game was fighting the Water Elemental in the Underground Maze. Attacking with fists made me take damage and freeze. The best weapon for monk early game is Finnean. Hits shadows, bypasses demon DR.

[@fury7419]

Quarter staff master at 20 mixed with two handed fighter at 20(Legend mythic path) is my personal favorite

[@turtlejay]

Hot damn that sounds spicy.

[@JockoJonson17]

I just made the same comment above. The passive tanking and damage is just so strong.

[@JockoJonson17]

@@Nmwhat Hmm might have to try that. 👍

[@neiljopling4693]

QM20 + Cult Leader of Nethys 20. 12D8 base weapon damage (with Legendary Proportions) + 6D6 sneak attack + destruction blessing. And spells.

[@onurkaaneroglu2633]

​ @Slandered Gaming Student of stone/Aeon is the coolest concept in the game. We really need a full-build video for this.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup that's definitely something I plan to do.

[@DeMause]

Why oh why must my favourite class be locked behind my most hated alignment?!

[@SlanderedGaming]

😂

[@klodpraisor]

I honestly argue Sohei as S, I believe there exists a bug where Sohei weapon training stacks with fighter weapon training, and also unlock flurry for that weapon, which is... ridiculous to say the least. But this guide is going off pure class so I can understand Sohei lacking just a tad bit of power: maybe if they get (Greater) weapon specialization they would be pushed into S. I also find it somewhat funny that Sohei actually makes slightly better archer for the majority of the game compared to Zen Archer, but that comparison opens up a whole can of worms (dmg vs hits/to-hit), so I mostly agree with the rating. Also nice seeing student of stone getting some love, probably one of the best racial-locked subclass, and very flavorful too, altering the base class in a way that makes sense for the racial combination. I remember you complained about wildland shaman being somewhat un-flavorful, so looking forward for the shaman ranking as well :)

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup my thoughts have changed about that over time. I almost picked the Shaman for my Azog run but Beast Tamer was too strong a pull.

[@vanmoosel]

I know I am abit late with this question but the scalemonks Dragon heretige states natural attacks and when I played it it wont add the 1d6 to fists nor on monk weapons think that is an over sight or is it purely for those that would go shifter and get that 1d6 on their shifter form as then the 1d6 dose show up.

[@mediumvillain]

I've wanted to play a Monk for awhile, either a Quarterstaff Master (lots of great quarterstaffs in the game and I've only ever used them for casters to hold for their bonuses) or Sohei, though I've also considered Sensei for its theme of wise old party leader. Student of Stone is also interesting for an Oread, who are rly geared towards doing acid damage.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup Monk has some really nice options.

[@Vagran]

Grabbing Quarterstaff Mond, a Lead Blades scroll and Legendary Proportions would be nice for recreating Sun Wukong!

[@SlanderedGaming]

Ooooooo yeah that could definitely work!

[@MuppetLord1]

Traditional monk is S tier as a dip due to full saves compared to the other monks. :)

[@SlanderedGaming]

Gotcha thanks makes sense. I don't make rankings based on dips so it wouldn't have changed the rankings but that's valuable context for the class.

[@alex-uw4mm]

i wonder if i can make a big stone boy aeon work

[@SlanderedGaming]

That would be awesome.

[@blackfistxu7953]

👍🏾👍🏾🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@strictlygrumps]

Thanks to your video here I learned that the in game description for the Scaled Fist Monk is incorrect. It states in game on the character sheet that the stunning fist scales off wisdom, as well as the ki pool. When I hover my mouse over those skills on the character class page, it says Wisdom in bold for scaling. So I gave my monk high wisdom, not realizing it is actually scaling off charisma. Time to respec. I am wondering however, how did you know it scales off charisma when all the descriptions say Wisdom? I can't find any description saying 'wisdom is replaced my charisma'

[@SlanderedGaming]

Oh wow thank you for pointing this out!

[@ChristiantrospectiveGamer]

Scaled Fist into Nature Oracle is still busted because it doubles your CHA modifier to AC. It lets you forego DEX in favor of STR and whatever else you want.

[@quentindevlay3359]

Unless I'm mistaken, Tremorsense, one of the key features of Student of Stone in your review, is costing you your swift action AND a Ki point EVERY TURN to use until level 20. Considering that Ki is a pretty limited ressource that you'd have to split between multiple features, I think you really really REALLY oversold that part of the SoS archetype - all the more since you yourself pointed out that any monk can get something better, permanent AND KI-FREE for a couple feats. Add to that the very limited use of acid damage fists (not to mention the mythic ability tax to make it barely relevant against the hordes of demons in the game), and I personally think this archetype sacrifices WAY too much for too little. Evasion and fast movement are absolutely key to a Monk's survivability. Remember that even with that fortification and extra confirlation AC, you still eat base damage on a crit. An evaded AoE is NO damage. I know which I prefer. Sorry, but I can't agree with that S. Heck, I'd barely give it a C for the cool concept.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Most enemies do not have concealment so it's not something you need on all the time until you get closer to level 20. There are specific encounters with higher level enemies who use concealment as a defense mechanism and in those situations spending a ki point/swift action is not a big ask at all. Acid damage usefulness is only limited if you don't take that Ascendant Element - Acid Mythic Ability which in the video I recommend you do. You can argue that is too high a price to pay but I honestly don't agree because it ties in directly with the really character concept of the class. The loss of Evasion is huge and definitely a knock against the class. I don't consider the loss of fast movement huge since there should be someone who is always casting haste on your party either through spell slots or scrolls. So you are not as fast as a regular monk would be but you are not a lumber block. Thanks for the feedback and I hope this helps the rating make more sense.

[@quentindevlay3359]

@@SlanderedGaming still not sold on an archetype getting an S when it needs a mythic ability to even function as intended. That alone should knock it down to at least B for bad design. No other Monk archetype (and barely any in the game) NEEDS such a tax to be relevant. But that's just my opinion.

[@dannyacevedo174]

I wouldn't have agreed with you on Scaled Fist if I didn't make a Sorcerer/Scaled Fist Legend (for roleplaying reasons) that was underwhelming.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yeah by itself the class isn't really all that.

[@jezebel8551]

Yeah not monk fan. Excellent and detailed video though as always!

[@SlanderedGaming]

Thanks for watching!

[@anten9984]

Sohei is a lot stronger then it's being represented by you. For one thing the ki attacks is a separate stackable bonus, giving you a flat + 5 at max. Secondly the bonus ho to the horse is persistent. If you give +24 bonus hp to the horse, and the horse takes 20 damage, the shield resets itself. The next fight the horse can take 20 hp again, and have it reset again. I've absorbed over 400 damage with just one usage. Remember you have mobility that can block attacks to extend it. Also a horse can get legendary proportions, allowing you to ride it at any size.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Interesting thank you for providing that context.

[@billyhaigh9274]

They get some amazing tanking abilities, I don't know how many times a monk have saved my team from death touch in the dungeons. Just use sensei to go full tank, as he can buff your team an allow them to use the full extent of their powers Tanky support is pretty good in my opinion ;)

[@billyhaigh9274]

Scaled fist lends it's power amazingly to half_orc intimidation build I went 8 levels in that then went into the trickster mythic class I also skip the last level of Zen archers I don't think the perfect body was worth it on ranged so I gave him the level 3 mount from a hunter class

[@PsyKotyK]

I want to do an Alucard sword saint playthrough, and a inquisitor solomon kane run

[@SlanderedGaming]

Oooo the Alucard run would probably be a lot of fun. Never saw Solomon Kane so don't know much about it.

[@jamesbrice3267]

@@SlanderedGaming Solomon Kane is basically THE inspiration for the base Inquisitor class, much like Conan for Barbarians. The Damphir portrait describes him nicely.

[@orarinnsnorrason4614]

Playing Traditional Monk as Demon into Swarm that Walks run. Didn't feel like an F class to me, more like an A. I had no trouble hitting and my AC was fine all way through and now its 60+

[@SlanderedGaming]

Your AC would be higher with access to Barkskin and you would be able to hit difficult enemies easier with True Strike. The saves make it a great solo option so honestly if I had thought about Swarm that Walks I might've ranked it more like a D.

[@orarinnsnorrason4614]

@NovelEnigma Agreed. extra attack ki power is basically the only thing you need and as you say its very easy to get barkskin from someone else.

[@orarinnsnorrason4614]

@NovelEnigma I did not solo until after taking Drezen back in act 5 when I accepted my role as Swarm.

[@mystere1357]

Shoi Aeon was amazing

[@stephencnunez]

Kind of interesting that they gave the traditional monk the 3 good saves but did not downgrade them to average BAB like in pen and paper.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Oh interesting so they are actually worse in pnp? That's an odd choice.

[@stephencnunez]

@@SlanderedGaming Yes, the monks in this game are based off the "unchained monk" which was designed to address some of the criticisms of the original monk. The "traditional monk" seems to be them trying to recreate the original monk on the unchained chasis.

[@lordofmud]

I played through Kingmaker with a Scaled Fist. Very enjoyable. Too much pet goodness in this game though.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Man I cannot wait to revisit Kingmaker.

[@luxsignifer6996]

a good "cosplay" or quarterstaff master is Kilik from the Soul Calibur series

[@notalefty999]

I dont think the base Monk is an A. The Ki powers are generally pretty bad (the save DCs are very low), and their offensive benefits are quite bad. Most notably, they do not get sizeable AB bonuses. The Sohei is the only archetype that I would say is on a par with the better archetypes of other martial classes. Up to +5 hit and damage from weapon training with gloves, a full animal companion and flurry of blows with a decent selection of weapons is all solid.

[@turtlejay]

What do you mean they don't get sizable AB bonuses? Monks get full BAB, a +20 to hit and 4 attacks at level 20. Also, never take the abilities that require saves or attacks, get the utility powers that allow you teleport, sprint across the map, or give yourself immunities or buffs. Monks aren't supposed to be the high damage instakill class, they do consistent DPS and are very slippery. They have a handful of utility with their abilities, but that is not why you pick a monk.

[@notalefty999]

@@turtlejay I mean they dont get anything on a par with fighter (+8 to hit from greater weapon focus, mythic weapon focus doubling the bonus, weapon training + gloves), Slayer (+9 from improved quarry and study target) or Ranger (+14 improved quarry and favoured enemy). Even paladins get divine favour, eagle soul and charisma to hit on smite evil targets, and barbarians get rage + lethal stance for +10 in total, though it doesnt stack with skald. Trailing other martial classes by between 8-14 is a very big drawback. And the fact that they get flurry is largely offset by the lack of damage bonuses, which again for other martial classes are substantial. Their offensive potential isnt that good, their defence isnt good without significant multiclassing, and their monk specific feature, Ki, is just not very good at all. They are probably fine in pnp, but in Wrath of the righteous, you need high AB and high DCs for your attacks to land reliably, and monks dont get either. Like a lot of class features, DCs are just too low for them to be effective in this game.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Offensively I absolutely agree they pale in comparison. Defensively I feel like they are a lot better than the other classes you named and there's the fact they can trip on a regular basis which gives a crowd control aspect to their attacks the other classes lack. I think you are undervaluing them a bit.

[@SlayerFan961]

Base monk = you can roleplay as Kenshiro from fist of the north star or Akuma from street fighter

[@notalefty999]

Mythic weapon specialisation is half mythic level, not mythic level.

[@SlanderedGaming]

*facepalm*

[@anlak1318]

I have to disagree with Quarterstaff master. I played with him once, and he was probably the strongest character i played, after a lich sorcerer and exploiting game mechanics azata, AND I DIDN'T MAKE A STRONG BUILD. So, it was kitsune Quarterstaff master (kitsune so it had access to pounce), and it was a destroyer, it dealt minimum of 100 dmg per attack, and it attacked like 6-7 times a turn, plus it was tanky, and had really good AC. So it dealt a lot of DMG, had a lot of HP, And had great defense. And come on, this class is fuckin' cool.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Nope I absolutely agree QM is really cool which is why I added some playthrough options for the class.

[@JockoJonson17]

I did Legend 20 Quarterstaff Monk / 20 Two-Hand Fighter. Incredibly strong tanking and damage.

[@TheRebelkid15]

Little late to the party. But punching demons in the face is just BA.

[@SlanderedGaming]

😂

[@dagonofthedepths]

Oh wow never had I disagreed so hard with you on something than I do with Student of Stone lol. Mechanicly, I feel like the main cool thing they do is be tanky and hit people with acid, but the acid damage is near useless because 80% of what you're fighting are demons and most of those have high acid resistance. Plus, you're throwing away a mythic feat just for damage that any mage can just eclipse in raw elemental dps. The tanking drops heavily off on higher difficulties as well. Like even on core, DR/5 vs a lot of the dangerous mariliths you fight (even pretending it's not chaotic) is what? I think -30 damage off a 140 combo(feels like they hit me for 20-30per) is still 110 damage. If you got around 180-200 HP your still dead in 2 turns if you're playing averages. 20-30 to 15-25 isn't crazy to me when you can still get jumped in 1 turn because of bad positioning. I know buffs and spells will help out a lot here and hopefully an enemy isn't landing every attack but still, I find it rare where you hit a bracket where that 5 dr will make a kill + or - 1 turn. So to me the 2 things they are good at, are things that suck to me and of all the things you lose you lose fast movement which oreads have a 20 ft movement speed and this is a melee class. Which might be bias for me but when you turn on turn base and realize a mount can book it halfway across an area in 1 movement point, it really hurts seeing a monk act hobble along like that. Idk mechanical imo that class is a hard F. The class fantasy is very cool but I really feel this is the wrong game for this class.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Movement speed doesn't matter to me because after a certain level haste should be on at all times. Plus honestly the slower speed just feeds more into the thematic aspect of the class. Yes mages can eclipse the damage but we don't compare classes between each other so this is being compared to a base Monk. Agreed that the DR is pretty irrelevant as it is irrelevant with most classes honestly. You get to ignore concealment, maintain the majority of Monk's core mechanics, and add some acid damage that ties in directly with a really cool character concept. What's not to like?

[@dagonofthedepths]

@@SlanderedGaming I think my problem with slow characters like that is Greybor honestly. I don't like changing a character's style so I try to play him melee but he really can't do his job of assassinating the back row even with haste half the time. Then if you have a haste horse pr something that can run to the moon and back and still get a shot off. but late game I tend to play turn based so that might be a huge part of it. Regardless the man spends most his time on his back in fights it seems.

[@koca987]

For Quarterstaff Monk how you forgot to name Sun Wukong he is monk and use staff that can change size :D

[@SlanderedGaming]

😂

[@patrickphillips6550]

Is this game OK for beginners there's seems so much. Everyone has something to say about builds. Can I just go in and actually enjoy the game or do I need to do hours of research to simply.enjoy the game

[@SlanderedGaming]

Nah you can absolutely just go in and do what you want. Especially if you are used to cRPG's. Don't feel intimidated. :)

[@patrickphillips6550]

@@SlanderedGaming is the monk class in this game all hand to hand? Cause that's what I'd prefer:p and thanks for the quick reply! Earned a sub:p

[@violau8550]

I tried the quarterstaff master monk, and my god, i think this monk is the highest damage among all monk - not even zen archer can compare (actually Zen Archer somehow damage fall down a lot after mid game.) , he is basically a human wolf with multiple attack, and plus when your companions near by, basically once enemies got tripped its death sentence for them, everyone just do AoO on wake up target. But of course he wont be the most tanky one, because he need to put damage and attack on Str8, so less Dex and not many reason to put even more Wis, plus he cant wear armor and shield. Another reason why alchemist is very important, with alchemist in your team, your companions just can put all points into damage and let alchemist buff them with shield and other stuff, and a caster buff them with mage armor, voila, problem solved.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup QM is amazing and to me is the most interesting of the Monk archtypes outside of Student of Stone.