Pathfinder: WotR - Ranking 199 Classes Part 24: Witch & Archetypes

[@FrostyThundertrod]

Ember is the best feature of the witch class

[@SlanderedGaming]

Hard to argue with this.

[@notalefty999]

Teleport and invisibility as a swift action is actually a really good defensive ability.

[@JoseVitor-po1og]

I legitimately think Ember's build is one of the best in the game. Making her a witch with the blackened curse is amazing because she becomes a spontaneous blaster, while still letting her have the vulnerability curse (that she also gets no matter what). Then, she also gets Slumber, and the witch spellbook has some great enchantment spells so it's hinted she's also a great crowd controller (and she is). 10/10.

[@SlanderedGaming]

yup I am a big fan of having her on the party.

[@mousewifegames]

Slowly making my way through these videos as a way to understand PF:WOTR, and they're so helpful! Definitely subscribing.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Thanks welcome to the channel!

[@CrazyxEnigma]

I like the flavor of witch, the how a witch receives their power is just like a D&D warlock but how the class functions is entirely different. For me personally though I'd never play one in WotR since you have Ember and she's great!

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yeah Ember is a mainstay in my party.

[@TheRealNemesisX]

If you're going to mention lich, it should be also be noted that trickster Rank 3 Athletics allows basically to fix the melee issue mentioned, as well as basically solving the spell issue with rank 3 magic device which provides a wizard spellbook, which scales with int and character level, if I recall.

[@SynderFGC]

That it does. Trickster is pretty crazy in how often it just makes things instantly powerful

[@SlanderedGaming]

There's not a single class in the game that doesn't tremendously benefit from going with Trickster. 😂😂

[@rukrawczyk]

@SlanderedGaming absolutely facts. It feels like the unique boon that trickster and only trickster brings to the table is just Build synergy No matter what you're doing there's a mythic trick for it(or be mounted and not even concern yourself with the tricks, just free sneak attack go brrrrr), and really the only classes trickster doesn't synergize with are those locked to lawful alignments(and I know that if alignment wasn't an issue, at the very least a sohei monk would LOVE trickster)

[@devoid820]

Figuring out which hexes can be swift/quick actions changed how much I liked this class. The only problem is it cuts metamagic mostly out of the spellcaster's hands. Even if I love the hex, I miss persistent more

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yeah that does make sense.

[@KingOfMadCows]

Witches have a weaker spell selection but they have healing spells, which is extremely rare for arcane casters.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup that is true. I don't mention it because without channel energy I still don't consider them great healers.

[@janisir4529]

​@@SlanderedGamingEmber is nice just in case Daeran gets rekt.

[@kylegivens3120]

I was just curious about witches in Wotr. Excellent timing, now I have extra knowledge in hand.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Nice glad you enjoyed it!

[@alex-uw4mm]

if hagbound would have changed my model, i would have given it an S just for style but i gues that would be more something a mythic path would do. hex channeler can be a nice alternative to wizard for a lich playthrough.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yeah I was honestly disappointed because I always assumed Hagbound would make you transform.

[@bobyhappy2992]

me hoping that the next pathfinder game would be about Hags and have a Hag transformation 😍😍 It's christmas so this is my wish to Santa

[@alex-uw4mm]

@@bobyhappy2992 i mean if season pass2 sells good we might get a third and who knows if that one gets a new mythic path

[@bobyhappy2992]

@@alex-uw4mm I wouldn't bet on it adding a new mythic path would mean adding quests related to it with dialogue options some banters from your companions and NPC's at this point I'm just hoping for the next game adding more classes and giving love to some of the existing ones would be enough for me

[@NovaZero]

I find that I still can't justify Witch vs Shaman. Intelligence beats Wisdom as a casting stat for sure but the spell book selection can't bring me to even consider it. I'm actually surprised there wasn't a crafting component to Witches at all - which has me just looking at Wizard. Even for being a Lich I dunno I still can't do it. The only way I've gotten myself to think about Witch is for Mystic Theurge. In any case, thanks for these. Always good to listen to other people's opinions. I've actually played as Witch of the Veil before and its abilities are actually very useful for defensive reasons but I do yearn for sneak attack die to make it really good. Trickster, maybe?

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup like most classes Trickster will help you shore up the weaknesses.

[@aylictal]

Pretty much agree with all your rankings here for the witch. Leyline and stigmatized and base witch are probably the best for most cases. I think witch of the veil could be bumped up a little bit. The main niche for witch of the veil is that the level 2 capstone is somewhat bugged the last I checked and you had infinite uses of invisibility, so this caster is pretty much permanantly invisible meaning you can nuke and then invis every single turn in combat. This falls in importance later when enemies get true sight, but even still it gives a concealment bonus. Witch of the veil is one of the few classes that can actually solo the game on unfair without any other character helping them, although it is slow an tedious. Look up victor creed unfair youtube runs, and he has a few playing the witch of the veil if you're curious (his sword saint takes 2 levels of witch right at the start of the game)

[@SlanderedGaming]

Interesting I usually don't look at classes from a solo lens so that's a good call out.

[@nessesaryschoolthing]

Can't believe we're already almost done with these. You really got these out fast. Respect

[@SlanderedGaming]

Glad you like them!

[@alexduraev]

Fast is not the word. Fascinating is!

[@giuliominuti9231]

Thank you for this series of videos, I have no idea how you managed to keep them so short.

[@SlanderedGaming]

My pleasure!

[@Russlem]

So, I checked the previous video on all 25 classes after seeing Witch get a "B" ranking and there are two glaring oversight in your analysis of the Hex mechanic not mentioned in either video. First, there is no mention of the two most powerful party buffs in WotR that are unique to Witch and Shaman: Protective Luck and Fortune. When using Cackle, or its analogue Chant for Shaman, both of these buffs can be extended permanently. It's tedious, but for particularly challenging fights you can put both of these buffs onto your entire party pre-buffing for minutes by spamming Cackle. Protective Luck is so astronomically broken that it takes a tank that can only be hit on a nat 20 from 1 in 20 to 1 in 400. Then you can layer Greater Invis/Displacement on top for 1 in 800. That's not even mentioning Fortune's ability to double the crit and hit chances of all party members semi-permanently if you're patient, an ability so broken it makes Trickster's Improve Improve Crit line look weak by comparison. Additionally, while enemies can resist Evil Eye, the effects always apply for exactly one round... which can then be extended through Cackle as a move action. This means you can utterly debilitate a boss' AC and ability to save against control spells and there is no counter play unless they are completely immune to Evil Eye. The Witch spell list is certainly poor, but, frankly, none of that matters when you get Icy Prison off of Cold Specialization from Winter Witch and amp'd DC from Expanded Arsenal: Evocation. Once it lands with a debuffed save on Evil Eye, you can just chase it with Misfortune to guarantee the target only has a 1 in 400 chance to get out. Misfortune can also be extended through Cackle as a move action. The only thing stopping Witch from being the bar-none best control caster and buffing class in WotR is the existence of Frost Shaman who gets all that plus Icy Prison, mass and Barkskin. Also, chant doesn't have an annoying sound effect like cackle does.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Witch can be fantastic in buffing and support but as you have already mentioned that is an extremely granular and tedious process. Classes like Skald, Brown Fur Transmuter and even Incense Synthesizer can buff your party and debuff enemies in SIGNIFICANTLY more painless ways. I don't think the extra power is worth it in comparison to the amount of effort it takes.

[@Smok3yR1der]

I've been seeing these videos pop up and didn't realize they were yours. Looks like I got some watching to do

[@SlanderedGaming]

Nice hope you enjoy them!

[@matteochevara1108]

Hagbound Witches re awesome. They absolutely brutalise your enemies. Thematically they are also cool. Savage deformed swamp rat that attacks and curses enemies wearing nothing but torn clothes. The hexes you lose are actually barely noticable since you have so many other things to do in combat. You also have Ember and Camellia.

[@notalefty999]

I really dont understand why the hagbound's strength bonus is size rather than inherent. As mentioned, your spellbook makes this obsolete.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Dude it's baffling.

[@notalefty999]

Not to nit pick, but I would say patrons are significantly better at filling in gaps in your spell book. The best patron spell selections improve the spell book of a witch SIGNIFICANTLY more than the best bloodline improve a sorcerer. You can pick up spells like divine power, mass heal, weird and so on, and the best patrons offer several useful spells each. You are lucky to get more than 2 valuable spells from a bloodline, and I honestly cannot think of any very strong spell from a bloodline that isnt already on the sorcerer spell list (though with limited spells known, a good bloodline spell is definitely useful even if its on the sorcerer spell list). I certainly dont dispute the base spell list of a sorcerer is much better, and the other bloodline features can be very useful.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Nope that's not a nit pick I definitely worded it incorrectly. I was trying to convey that bloodlines make Sorcerer's better classes than Patron's make Witches not really that it's specifically due to bonus spells. Thank you for the feedback.

[@casteanpreswyn7528]

Witch of the Viel aka the Ashiftah simultaneously got a huge buff and huge nerf in the conversion from pnp to cRPG. The Invis is now a swift action, doesn't require a Hex to be used, and eventually includes a teleport, but it lost its best feature: on demand Barrow Haze.

[@PsyKotyK]

Almost through it , good work

[@SlanderedGaming]

Thank you!

[@PsyKotyK]

I'm pretty stoked for rogue trader never dabbled in war hammer looks like a great starter.

[@papervoxels]

It's interesting that the Witch archetypes don't lose base class features uniformly like the other classes do. I wonder if that was intentional?

[@SlanderedGaming]

It's definitely weird, no idea why Owlcat did it that way.

[@MrZanvine]

Oh no a friend of mine started off playing as a Hagbound Witch and he said he had a terrible time of it on normal. I learned a little of why that is

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yeah it's not that great.

[@aguile]

Heads up on hex channeler. You get the channel energy, but it doesn't scale, for that you must get the hex upgrades as your hexes. It's not as good as it might look like, since you must sacrifice your hexes to be able to improve the channel energy, and losing a hex for +1d6 healing is a really bad trade

[@SlanderedGaming]

Thanks I will definitely change that rating in the update video.

[@jollyproger]

an aaabsolutely fantastic content :)

[@SlanderedGaming]

Thank you!

[@SpaceVENTING]

I love Stigmatized witch but I hesitate to pick it for myself cause I love having Ember in the Party

[@SlanderedGaming]

Same. Ember is pretty indispensable for me.

[@nolanstrife7350]

I know this is a dumb unrelated question, but... What would you rank a Havocker archetype from Kingmaker mod? Basically, Witch loses her patron and all hexes starting from level 2. Instead she gets a Kineticist's Kinetic Blast equal to it's level and infisions. However in order to use those infusions she has to sacrifice spells with level equal to burn cost

[@SlanderedGaming]

I haven't seen the details of that class so honestly not sure.

[@moonlight2870]

One of my favorite classes.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Ember is a mainstay on my time in part because of this class.

[@ChristiantrospectiveGamer]

I'd have to disagree with you on the Witch of the Veil. Invisibility works amazingly to turn your witch into a sniper and all it requires is 1 level in Rowdy. It also works great once you start using slumber and deep slumber against enemies so that they don't attack you while you're using them.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Remember the rankings aren't based on multiclassing. It's how good the class is if you take it all the way to level 20.

[@tahuta5]

A theory: maybe a Hagbound witch could use compound shortbows, darts, or javelins?

[@SlanderedGaming]

The new archetypes provide better Hag options.

[@yumasai]

Hello, do you know the name of the OST that starts playing at 6:40?

[@megurineziam5900]

Hey I just found out about this game and I'm thinking of playing solely because of this class (I love witches). Is this class more of a support or a damage dealer?

[@SlanderedGaming]

It focus on support or damage dealer depending on the patron that you choose and what spells you select. :)

[@megurineziam5900]

@@SlanderedGaming oh so I can build a damage dealer witch then?? Thank you very much for the response!

[@thecombativemedic521]

I have bad feelings for witch unfortunately. It's an intelligence caster which is great, but it's universally worse the wizard. Thematically it's enjoyable but mechanically I can rarely justify it with the access to healing and inflict spells being the largest benefit spell wise. This isn't to say it's bad. I just don't ever find myself using it spontaneously.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup there are much better options, especially since we have Ember.

[@Mystra]

I love the theme of the witch, but it's unfortunate, Sorcerer is just alot better.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yup in this game at least.

[@flavioromano8754]

ok, you ranked witch of the veil as D. i think you might be underestimating the level 2 feature. it is good, soo good in fact that it allow the class to solo the game on unfair. PPL dip two levels into witch of the veil just to get that skill. also the deception patron spells are usually good and some of them are not in the witch spell list so its a plus. losing a few hexes is well worth the price.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Interesting I'll check it again.

[@flavioromano8754]

At level 8 imagine this: the teleport from demonic charge but you become invisible instead. Can be used at will, costs nothing

[@flavioromano8754]

@@SlanderedGaming i am not saying the archetype is S tier but it is better than D tier

[@SynderFGC]

Are you going to do the prestige classes after the base classes?

[@SlanderedGaming]

Absolutely.

[@notalefty999]

Leyline guardian increases caster level, not DC. Given its highly random and limited in use and comes with a significant drawback, I think this mechanic is rather bad. The only significant benefit I can see is hitting caster level 25 with greater enduring spells and extend spell for your round per level spells, though baseline, witches dont even had useful round per level spells like haste. Spontaneous casters arent uniformly better than prepared casters. If playing real time with pause, the metamagic penalty is rather bad, and getting access to higher level spells a level later can leave you significantly weaker for extended intervals of your playthrough.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Spontaneous casters aren't uniformly better but spontaneous casting witches are better because their spellbooks are so poor and there are plenty of items to help shore that up. Unless you want to create an Illusion Witch I don't think Patrons alone do that.

[@notalefty999]

But which spells offered by the rings are all that effective and not already in the witch spellbook? Honestly, the main advantage of spontaneous caster specific items are the lightening bracers that allow the conversion of all elemental damage into 1 element, combined with ascendant element. The spell selection of these items is nothing special. And if you want an elemental blaster, the elemental specialist wizard converting to fire works a lot better due to fire specific gear, and not needing to wait until mid chapter 3.

[@bobyhappy2992]

the witch class was the one that made me wanna try this game especially the hagbound since...I love Hags 😍 but my male Dhampir hagbound didn't transform...so at first I thought maybe only girlz are allowed to be ugly and evil and I remade him into a female dhampir...but still no Hag transformation !!! The Hagbound should had a gameplay more focus on hexes like you have less hexes but they're more powerful like they affect an area or they become swift action or stuff like that The elemental witch should have gained access to elemental variation of elemental spells either through feats or patron like the ice fireball or fire chain lightning or gain access to spells like ability...can you imagine how good this would have been ? shooting fireballs at will ? The witch of the veil could have been one of the fearmongers of the game so more feats around the invisibility like if you're invisible your next spell gets harder to resist or if you kill an opponent you become invisible again I want to be a male hag !! I want to be chaotic, ugly and evil !!! 😢😢

[@SlanderedGaming]

Legit points. Witch definitely needs some love.

[@bobyhappy2992]

@@SlanderedGaming let's hope that owlcat will do either for this game or the next pathfinder title

[@jezebel8551]

Sounds like a good class, albeit only the Leyline. Tried basic class with focus on necromancy -- Sorcerer works much better.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Yeah Witch pales in comparison to Sorcerer.

[@jezebel8551]

@@SlanderedGaming absolutely

[@notalefty999]

Hex channeler is trash. I think you have missed the fact that your channel energy doesnt scale with level, and you would need to trade every single hex beyond first level to keep pace with a cleric's channel energy (each pick in place of a hex adds another d6). Why play a cleric with no armour, a worse spell selection, and worse BAB if you arent even going to get hexes?

[@SlanderedGaming]

Definitely did not catch that and will downgrade the class in my summary video.

[@mjw3877]

I like this class even if the spell list for the not the best.

[@SlanderedGaming]

I love having Ember on my party.

[@mjw3877]

@@SlanderedGaming I like her as a character but I barely take her on my party. Sosiel, Seelah, Lann, the crazy girl and a skald take my slots .

[@damagingthebrand7387]

Which witch is the lich?

[@SlanderedGaming]

Any witch class can merge with Lich.

[@damagingthebrand7387]

@@SlanderedGaming You cannot switch which lich comes from a witch?

[@anlak1318]

as much as i love the fantasy and roleplay part of this class, and how cool hexes are, i never use it. I only play on higher difficulties, where every enemy has ENORMOUS saves, and because of that almost every status_effect/deals_dmg_if_failed_save spell/hex/weapon_ability is bad, except when you make your main character a caster with every possible item/feat buffing your DC, and with combined spellbook, and unfortunately it's not possible for hexes. Fortunately, when i play these games, i use mods, and kingmaker mods (call of the wild and tweak or treat) add the witch class, AND A LOT of support for hexes, like: wands that upgrade or quicken hexes, feats that allow you to re-roll hex saves, cast multiple hexes during the same turn, or even things like "on every flurry of blows, you can apply a hex you know as a bonus", + enemies in kingmaker have lower saves, so in that game, The witch is everything i ever wanted it to be.

[@SirCanuckelhead]

Nice thing about evil eye is that it always hits for 1 round even on a save. With cackle you can keep it on. Cam and ember stacking evil eye helps overcome those high stats.

[@SlanderedGaming]

Nice I didn't know the mods made that big a difference for Witch.

[@anlak1318]

@@SlanderedGaming unfortunately they are only for kingmaker, but on the bright side, when i come back from WotR to Kingmaker, i don't feel like it's a downgrade, because mods add a lot of things that aren't in WotR.

[@aylictal]

@anlak theres a bunch of spells still useful on saves. One of the biggest sleeper spells is boneshatter that even if the damage fails, it still fatigues no matter what unless they're immune to fatigue. I use that spell on my brown furs a lot on unfair because he usually has level 4 slots available to spam in the mid level region, and fatigue / exhaustion is a pretty nice debuff to enemies even if they save the damage component (which on unfair they almost always do lol).

[@phantomvulpe791]

I said I would tell you why I like to roleplay a stigmatized witch and I'll tell you. Imagine this. You're a normal person in this world when all of a sudden a patron of insanity pulls you into Golarion just for shits and giggles and part of its soul is manifesting your body. That's what happened to my MC. A scholar who has thing of looking of the occult in his university when a insanity patron pulled him into golarion putting part of its soul in my MC's body. This caused him to go somewhat insane and cause...questionable actions that break logic. It doesn't help the fact that witches parade him like he's some sort of chosen one of some prophecy and was given a cat(the patron's favorite animal) to accompany him. I made him a trickster with this story alone

[@SlanderedGaming]

That actually does sound fantastic.

[@phantomvulpe791]

@@SlanderedGaming thanks. Got this idea from the call of cthulhu games

[@CrazyxEnigma]

Cool backstory for your character.

[@phantomvulpe791]

@@CrazyxEnigma thanks

[@blackfistxu7953]

👍🏾👍🏾🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@JoostCraanen]

Me who just made a character for my partner and it's a hagbound witch: :|

[@SlanderedGaming]

😂😂 If it works for you that's all that matters!

[@michaelgnit8476]

You explained it well so I won't play them, thanks.

[@Kaynos]

I don't want to watch 24 videos, can anyone post the top 10 one's ? The S rating ?

[@SlanderedGaming]

When I have finished ranking the prestige classes I will be making a final video that contains the full list for each ranking.

[@Kaynos]

@@SlanderedGaming Thanks man !

[@PotatoBag685]

Witch has the worst spellbook ever.

[@Sylentmana]

Witch is just a crappy D&D warlock.

[@SlanderedGaming]

😂