Introduction to Icons

[@NavelOrangeGazer]

"I do not worship matter, I worship the God of matter, who became matter for my sake, and deigned to inhabit matter, who worked out my salvation through matter. I will not cease from honouring that matter which works my salvation." - St. John of Damascus (+749)

[@cabellero1120]

Beautiful! 👏❤️☦️🙏

[@OrthoKarter]

Wise words.

[@photinisociety]

Wow. Thank you.

[@TheAncientLight]

This is one of the best introductions of Icons, excellent historical and theological accuracy ☦️

[@todormia]

I totally agree!

[@southerncuban5845]

I agree!

[@joeskill4663]

As someone coming out of Protestantism I have a greater appreciation for icons. And every time I listen to a story about an individual Saint I feel like I want to get a icon of my favourite Saints..🙏🏽

[@curiousing]

Be careful. That's a known challenge new Orthodox converts face: They collect too many icons! 😉

[@brianh3253]

That’s how I feel about the action figures I collect. 😂 I guess they are icons of a sort. 😅

[@leonardosoto7558]

I just passed art history part 1&2 and a great portion of it relates to religious artwork, both pre and post the reformation. I became very enthusiastic learning about icons, especially after these images brought back memories of me as a child seeing icons growing up catholic.

[@Patristix]

You may enjoy some if the videos and resources we have linked in the description too! And we have a growing number of icon explainer videos on this channel too

[@permanenceaesthetic6545]

I have thoroughly enjoyed all of your videos, but I must say that this one takes the cake for me. This will definitely be my new go-to video for inquirers (or skeptics) whenever they ask about our iconographic tradition. Absolutely brilliant! I can hardly wait for the next installment regarding the specifics and technicalities of iconography! Solid work! ☦️

[@Xechil]

Just stumbled across your channel - as someone deeply fascinated by religion, I am deeply impressed by what you're creating and eager to go through your channel! Thank you for your devotion, and the work you put into this.

[@firmbiz000]

I have to hand it to you and how well you are able to not only articulate each concept you discuss in your videos but you do it so concise yet full of historical context. Keep up the great work.

[@washedashore]

Can’t wait for more videos on icons! This one was great! Thank you!

[@Patristix]

Thank you! We currently have breakdowns of the 'Trinity' and Nativity icons on the channel too

[@mostawesomemom9293]

This was so insightful. I had no idea!

[@CHURCHISAWESUM]

This channel is incredible!

[@FatherAndTeacherTV]

Thank you for this introduction! 🙏🏿☦️

[@matronarona]

Love the video and the tea.

[@Patristix]

Thought you would ;)

[@elfipet]

So glad yr videos showed up on my feed recently - I love yr videos and the well informed way they are presented. 🙏🙏

[@aaronargottelopez3488]

Thanks for the subtitles!

[@aaronshanker6019]

Wow thank you for promoting our Malaysian Teh Tarik on your video, that really took me off guard haha but thank you appreciate it :)

[@Patristix]

It is truly delicious!

[@officialjbbeverley]

Love your channel, brother! Thanks for such thoughtful and informative videos! Cheers!

[@henridib7222]

Amazing, the topic I've been waiting for. Love it

[@Patristix]

Thank you!

[@FatherAndTeacherTV]

Host: "There is a place, a proper place, for imagery in worship." Me: 👏🏿🙇‍♂️

[@Patristix]

Thanks, friend! ❤️

[@MicheleHjorleifsson]

Johnathan Pague has a great channel on iconography and imagery

[@MossyMozart]

I have also been working my way through "Painting with Light" by a Greek iconographer.

[@gerardgrywacheski1418]

O Holy and Venerable John of Damascus, Theodore the Studite, and the Holy Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council, pray for us sinners!! Have a blessed Sunday of Orthodoxy!!☦️🙏

[@christinehales]

Thank you for this video! I will be sharing this link with my Icon writing students and friends since it is a short, concise explanation that will bless many people. Again, thank you! Christine Hales

[@ays.939]

Oh the comment sections in this new series will definitely be spicy lol

[@JoyElectric567]

Great video!

[@stassdanielsons4850]

Extraordinary beauty❤

[@ericnelson3021]

Thank you thank you thank you! ☦️❤️

[@mrsnkg7904]

Thank you. Kyrie Iesu Christe Eleison Me 💖🙏➕

[@Byzantios1]

Excellent work. Well explained.

[@lisamaree7395]

I absolutely loved this video!!! And I wanted to say all along WE are the most Holy Icon ❤️ I found your channel on IG

[@Patristix]

Thanks for watching!

[@alexandria1663]

Thank you so much for this video! I’d love to learn more of the theology behind how the icons look (art style), I’m introducing my father to the idea and while he admits it might be shallow, he’s very off-put by their appearance and claims the Byzantine style shows it’s a late development and not apostolic.

[@Patristix]

If you search for "Fayum mummy portraits", you'll also find that the style often seen as 'Byzantine' has origins pre-1st century. I can understand perhaps what your father means, however the Byzantine style is dominant yet by no means the only one through the ages, nor even the only one today. It's dominant in Orthodoxy because it is the style that existed when we cemented our position on iconography in the 7th Ecumenical Council. With the clearly articulated positions of the council, the practices from that century became the central 'style'. If you search for catacomb Christian art you will see the early Roman-style icons, as you will if you search for the Christian art of Dura Europos. Coptic and Ethiopian iconography is different once more. A search for the more recent Romanian glass icons will show a different style yet again. Cultures bring some of themselves into the art of iconography and it is not a uniform style across the Orthodox world, but a uniform belief.

[@alexandria1663]

@@Patristix ah thank you so much for this information, it’s super helpful!!

[@BenJoSon]

Haven’t you heard? Everything and anything you like is iconic now, if you can get maybe a couple of your friends to agree with you.

[@joshua_wherley]

An excellent overview of icons and a tea recommendation at the end. This is my kind of channel. Thanks for all you do!

[@SimpleAmadeus]

As a somewhat recent Christian convert (3 years), carefully exploring theology with Protestantism as my starting point, I'm finding it quite refreshing to consider these topics individually, without the baggage of... "questionable" Roman-Catholic claims of absolute authority looming behind it.

[@gerardgrywacheski1418]

Thank you for your awesome introduction video on icons!! May God bless you and your channel!! Also, May God bless the Holy and Venerable Sts. John of Damascus and Theodore the Studite as well the Holy Fathers of the Seventh Ecumenical Council!!

[@WilliamDusing]

Great explanation!

[@TyroneBeiron]

That last bit on ‘teh tarik’ was superb! 😋😍

[@Patristix]

We love teh tarik!

[@YurtlemySquirtle]

So what does the 2nd commandment mean exactly by idolatry? Or graven images?

[@Patristix]

Hi, check the links in the description for more information. This is a short place to start but there's more to it: www.saintjohnchurch.org/does-the-second-commandment-forbid-icons/

[@YurtlemySquirtle]

@@Patristix I’ve read the article but I’m left with a question in it. The commandment says“You shall not make for yourself a carved image-any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them.” (Ex. 20:4-5). This sounds exactly what the icons are so I’m really confused how this is not a problem. I’m not trying to argue in bad faith. I want to join the orthodox faith but this is blocking me from continuing.

[@Patristix]

@@YurtlemySquirtle I see where you're at. The main point is that the commandment is against idolatry and not imagery specifically (there's a LOT of imagery in the OT). The description below the video is pretty loaded up with links that might help you. The video from Frederica Mathewes-Green is nice and short. But the best thing I can recommend, honestly, is to get to an Orthodox liturgy and have a chat with the priest afterwards. Discuss your thoughts and roadblocks. It's a discussion that's a lot more practical in person!

[@YurtlemySquirtle]

@@Patristix the video of Frederica was very good and to the point. I also like that channel Theoria a lot. My only question is what does the commandment mean by “carved image” is it a translation for carved idol perhaps?

[@Patristix]

Frederica is a marvellous teacher isn't she! Also Ben the Theoria guy responds to questions asked. The commandment is specifically to idols which icons are not. But there's more to it in regards to what it means for depiction and art now that Christ has become incarnate. Also I've updated the description here to include a link to some of John Damascene's writing on the image. It's older, longer reading, but remains some of the best theology on the subject centuries on!

[@robelasamere6403]

Please do a video on Ethiopian orthodoxy tradition

[@waltersteele2819]

Lutherans did not reject iconography. In fact, they are becoming more common in Lutheran churches

[@w4ka997]

No they are not?

[@feeble_stirrings]

You had me at "sweetened condensed milk".

[@Patristix]

It is SO good

[@jakovjanku]

Can one set icons in the bedroom there man and wife sleep ? Can the same room use for together prayings and so ?

[@Krentiles]

Amazing. Thank you!

[@HaruAritomo]

beautiful!

[@Joking_helps]

Can you do a video explaining the significance behind the peacock egg shaped icon

[@bojanpecanac]

Awesome explanation. Subscribed!

[@kornelszecsi6512]

I actually love that the West redeemed pagan symbolism, and reused the beauty of the pagan art and made the symbols Christian. I love both the overwelming and modest icons.

[@JackFalltrades]

I couldn't quite hear what kind of tea you have. Is it teh tarik? I encountered it in Brunei and Singapore in the 90s. 😊

[@Patristix]

Yes! It's absolutely delicious

[@JackFalltrades]

@@Patristix Agreed. 😊

[@MossyMozart]

QUERIES -------------------- I know about the strictures put on icon paintings and my questions may just turn out to have merely stylistic answers, but here goes - - - -------- 1) Why do the icons I've seen depict persons with very sad, or downright dour expressions and none of joy or even just happiness? -------- 2) So many icons have a base layer of a deep greenish color that remains obvious even after the image is completed. To me, this looks like a color of infection or even death. Why don't the images depict persons in a healthy pink of life? -------- 3) Why do the persons depicted have those very round, cartoonish heads? --------- 4) Is the goal to have each icon look exactly like its historic counterpart? If so, it doesn't work in reality because I can see definite differences between artists. Are those personalized images acceptable or considered failures? ---------- Thank you for your time. I am sorry if I do not recognize all the symbolism.

[@burger3856]

Hi! I’d be happy to answer your questions as best I can. 1. The faces on icons may appear to be sadness, but it is actually meant to be a neutral face; representing peace and serenity in Christ. You’ll notice that icons also do not typically depict people with much “action” either, rather they stand calmly. This also illustrates peace and serenity. 2. A green underlay of paint is used to create depth and shadow effect in the icon. Also, it is required that icons are made with natural paints, meaning that they decay or discolor over time; this could be another reason as some of the icons you’ve seen could’ve been older. 3. The art style for Orthodox icons does not focus on realism because the icon is meant to draw our attention to heaven, not to themselves. This is illustrated by the huge emphasis on symbolism in icons, nothing is arbitrary. In other words, when you look at an icon, you’re supposed to focus on the symbols (which always point to God and heaven), the person or event on the icon is just a vector to deliver said symbolism. 4. This is largely going to be the same as the answer to question 3. I’m sorry your comment has gone so long without an answer, I hope this helps.

[@Do_not_at_me_bro]

Are you living in Australia? I'm also living in Australia.

[@AhFahted]

If man was created as an image bearer of God and Christ came to redeem that image, what was the state of the image of man after Adam’s fall, pre-incarnation?

[@ameecallaghan7979]

Love this! also noticed a little clip from the alternate?

[@Patristix]

It is indeed from The Alternate! The one place where the Guide removes his hat. Good memories making that film, right?

[@Soekell]

The reformers were actually very well educated, founding many major universities in Europe and developing first schools for the people. I can’t imagine they were just overwhelmed by the icons the Roman Catholic Church made in these days. They must’ve good reasons for that, funded in theology and philosophy.

[@Patristix]

Oh yes, it was not a matter of education but of access. The issues were very much theological, and philosophical as you say, they just stemmed from the resources available to the reformers. The reformers studied in Catholic universities with Catholic materials, and did not have the same familiarity with Eastern writings regarding the image nor the Eastern understanding of the image. John Calvin for instance, one of the leading iconoclastic reformers (not all were against images) never mentions the 7th Council. He never once quotes or refers to St. John of Damascus, who by Calvin's time had been the main source of iconographic theology in the East for almost 800 years! If a man of Calvin's education does not even acknowledge John Damascene's work, it can only mean he did not know of its existence. And of course John Damascene's work, and the 7th council, had resulted in religious imagery vastly different to the ones accessible to the reformers. Access to the Eastern teaching may have resulted in a totally different argument post-reformation.

[@brd6184]

It’s Aristotle vs Plato

[@Soekell]

I don‘t think it‘s necessary to say that it‘s lack of access. I think those were very conscience decisions. But I‘m not as good in name dropping. The issue for the rcc was especially that this church lost all their power in europe after the reformers, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Menno Simons etc. wanted to correct the rcc and go back to some of the roots in the early church.

[@ryanpadgett2549]

Great video Brother! So it seems that the perception of images differ between Orthodox and Catholic in that Catholics see them as more artistic and Orthodox more spiritual. Is that correct?

[@Patristix]

Basically yes. Though Catholics will agree with it, and over the last century or so have brought back more of it, Orthodoxy has a consistent history of veneration. Jonathan Pageau (an Orthodox iconographer) breaks it down a few differences here (in a discussion with Catholics): kzbin.info/www/bejne/iKXOmZ2rd56UsLs And there are some other discussion links in the description above

[@ryanpadgett2549]

@@Patristix Excellent! Thanks for the resources. I’ve been enjoying the content and learning about the Faith. Were you raised Orthodox or did you convert?

[@Patristix]

Raised in it! Very grateful for that. Thanks for watching the videos Ryan. It definitely is an exciting world to discover!

[@ryanpadgett2549]

@@Patristix Very cool! I’m from America in what we call the South. Or Dixieland as we call it. Raised Protestant, and Baptist is the dominant religion across the country and certainly in the South. I started researching early church history, the Apostolic Fathers, the Sacraments and just became aware of how truly vast and old the Christian Faith is. Long story short, I found what was missing from my church and have been on the journey home. Anyways, grateful for the content and resources, remember me in your prayers and God bless.

[@romainlettuce118]

Catholic art is full spiritual symbolism. It’s just more “artistic”

[@cozzwozzle]

❤

[@crxtn7349]

This is a request, I have witnessed something disturbing, some dear people that I know are having their faith shaken regarding Jesus being God. I believe it would make a big impact if you were to make a video about this. Blessings to you all!

[@eikon7001]

That is not much information. Does the problem involve doubting the historicity of scripture, stumbling over Triadology or Christology or what?

[@crxtn7349]

@@eikon7001 They know the trinity, but do not understand the essence of it. They understand that the Holy spirit is the spirit of God but they don't understand that Jesus and the father are one "How can God's son be God at the same time"

[@eikon7001]

@@crxtn7349 ​ ​ ​ That is something to work with if it’s a topic he wanted to tackle in a video. In the meantime, a book I recommend is ‘On the Incarnation of the Word,’ by Saint Athanasius. Of course there are others who treated it as well. In my own case I cannot see any problem. The Father is the Fount of Deity, the Word is eternally begotten of the Father, the Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father. The three eternal divine Persons have one and the same Essence from one Source-whatever in essence is God is God, and the Godhead is Unity in eternal Deity differentiated only by the hypostases (or unique characteristics of the personhood): unbegotten, begotten, proceeding-without relationship to time, that is neither before or after, existing as one Nature, each possessing that which necessarily in essence is God; that which the finite cannot really know or exhaust, but is often expressed by qualities such as omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, necessary Existence, Love, Goodness etc. The Son is God, the Spirit is God, the Father is God. God is God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, being Incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, the human nature taken unto Himself being circumscribed in Christ, and while quickening the body the infinite uncircumscribed Deity remained also in the bosom of the Father and everywhere upholding His creation; the eternal Word, without whom nothing was made that has been made. Christ is that one divine Person with two natures, uncompounded, fully God and fully man, Son of God and Son of Man. The Word suffered no change in His divine essence, Christ is not of a mixed nature but two natures, and the Word by wielding our human nature deified it, and being brought up to heaven sat it down at the right hand of the Father, being made mediator between God and man, making possible our eternal communion with Him. That is an inadequate exposition of the exquisite Mystery, but the best such a lowly one can do in a few words. May our Holy Father Athanasius help you and your friends.

[@crxtn7349]

@@eikon7001 I have given examples of the Church Father's like Ignatius, Clement aswell as Athanasius, but the fact that they are Protestant they do not seem to understand the importance of early church father's, but I will absolutely refer them to the book you have mentioned. I appreciate your concern May the Lord be with you!

[@eikon7001]

@@crxtn7349 ​ I see. The pitfalls of Protestantism are many, which is one of the reasons such an importance is placed on being in the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church, ‘the pillar and ground of truth.’ Many of them have such a diluted Christology and soteriology so it’s unsurprising when some are shaken or deceived to embrace heresy. I simply cannot understand the reasoning of one that disregards the Fathers and God-bearers-who had actual authority set forth in scripture to express the true doctrine of the Church, and the Spirit in greater measure than most will attain to on earth-while thinking their own authority and reasoning (or a preacher who attended some seminary) is something to be held in high esteem. One will not hear Athanasius but will align themselves with the anathematized heretic Arius who he condemned in the Spirit to defend the faith? We will not regard Revelation in the Church but rather lean on our own understanding? What ego and madness. I do not write ill of your friends or their intent, only in generalizations. If any are removing entirely from the faith over the divinity of Christ that is another matter, they have abandoned all hope; if they will not hear the Prophets and Apostles and Holy Fathers then neither will they believe ‘if one should rise from the dead.’ But if they remain yet are being led to embrace heresy then I think their modern Protestant presuppositions need to be challenged in the first place. For if they can read the Fathers expositions of the divine mysteries and still ask “How can Christ be both Son and Lord,” the problem is not simply a rational one but something deeper that will not accept sound doctrine. Through the prayers of our Holy Father Athanasius, may the ancient heresy be defeated for your friends once again, and from that be brought into His Church.

[@TheRadChadDad]

☦️☦️☦️

[@JosephMarie272]

so good to hear from you. but no need to advertise the Tea😁

[@graphe526]

To know difference between Icon and Paintings kzbin.info/www/bejne/r2TdeaiDrcukj7M

[@UnOrthodox_Christian]

Hmm, I learned something new today. My Protestant (“non-denominational) friend shared with me a video about how the sacred heart of Jesus looked like a pagan idol. This video gives me more perspective on why that is. Thank you.

[@makuballz6516]

nice

[@jeffersenpierrelouis7053]

I'm back. What did I miss?😅

[@Lundalf]

Excellent video. Thank you!

[@rajaasfour]

👍

[@nikkarel515]

The invisible becomes visible

[@punitharajgnanaprakasam]

Malaysian here. Pulled tea 😂

[@Patristix]

We love it a lot

[@larrylawless8760]

It's an image bottom line no excuses to be had for me

[@Patristix]

Consider though, that by being on KZbin, a website predicated entirely on supplying images, have you not ALREADY given excuses to certain types of images...

[@Georgeos777]

all fine but besides the topic we encounter god in the temple built without hands aka body, there is the living god not in buildings made of hands, this counts for us all, dont get me wrong, i like orthodox churches really from an standpoint of beauty and gathering people, but still the ecclesia(which really is in the scripture instead of a building) is the church, the group of believers is what counts, not stone buildings, god dwells in the body not in a building, icons are a connector to god, not god, people got possesed with buildings as if there is no ecclesia without marble floor and 400 pound of gold everywhere.

[@Okie8T9]

The pagans used 3Dstatues for idols. The Orthodox Church specifically uses 2D images, they're portraits of real people.

[@Srhyle]

Biblical or not, what I don't like about this is the multiple "versions" of Jesus. What's the deal with that? - Santo NiÑo - baby Jesus? - Black Nazarene - Infant Jesus of **** - too many to mention Is there really a difference?

[@Patristix]

It's not a question we can help you with I'm afraid. It's not really something we have in Eastern Orthodoxy. We have different types of icons but they're just different images.

[@christisking970]

2nd commandment is about pagan gods

[@ninjason57]

Then why was God mad when Israel made the golden calf? It wasn't for a pagan God. It was made as an image of Yahweh.

[@christisking970]

@@ninjason57 thats cause God hadn’t become flesh

[@selemonkahasu1189]

Amazing do you have Facebook or other social media please I would follow you God bless you Amazing God bless you Mathew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.