Patterning Four Different Shotgun Rounds (Through Two Different Guns) with Matt Haught

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Attitude. Skills. Plan.
(music in the outro courtesy of Bensound at www.bensound.com)

[@JUDGERAMBO]

14" barrel NFA gun. Everyone's got one.

[@AK-47ISTHEWAY]

No not in my commie state lol

[@andyprairiedog4829]

WOW! I really need to pattern my shotgun. More Shotgun Haught, please. This guy is definitely in his lane...and I'm sure there are many more lanes he can drive in.

[@ASPextra]

More to come!

[@ogdenmills9666]

He's an awesome instructor!

[@dannyhardesty3692]

It is amazing how smoothly he handles 12 gauge buckshot loads!

[@bebop_557]

Matt: "if you feed your shotgun super garbage" John: /casually holds up the Remington ammo in his hand Made me laugh out loud

[@centuryt7043]

Try shooting a rifle. The spread is only about 5.56mm.

[@ASPextra]

More to come.

[@paddymack3224]

CenturyT odd, mines a 7.62 spread

[@6254KLR]

I agree with you. I don't want my shotgun to shoot like a rifle, unless I have a slug in it.

[@oldschool9932]

Really liking this series John. I know the defensive scattergun groupie crowd has dwindled in recent years and drifted towards ar patterned carbines and fancy pistols with electric sighting but if one is willing to put in the time and effort the scattergun cannot be beat. It is without question the most violent weapon in the small arms arsonal. Would really like to see some side by side timed drills with the 1301 v 870P. Thank you John for all you do.

[@ASPextra]

It amazes me how fast a guy like Matt can run his 870, Mbogo. :)

[@johnnygimms4523]

This was fantastic. Great review of patterning with an expert. Thank you!

[@logicalguy488]

If you use the first round in your house you will have a perfect outline of the bad guy on your wall. LOL

[@ASPextra]

Okay, that's funny.

[@ordinary_american]

Thanks Matt and John! Good stuff as always. Can you gents share how you set up your sling attachments to your shotguns? Any aftermarket clamps/mounts/swivels you recommend for the typical Mossberg or Remington? Much appreciated

[@MyLonewolf25]

Honestly I really wish #1 Buck was more popular. Much less velocity dependent than #4 and more pellets than 00. Also 9 pellet 00 is old news because of the “9th pellet flyer” so 8 pellet is the meta so to speak

[@scottcampbell2836]

8 is the new 9

[@syncerus416]

Can you show their effectiveness against a meat target?

[@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595]

You’re trolling aren’t you?

[@syncerus416]

@@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595 of course. I love John's work and contribution to helping hone my personal defense skills and planning, but I couldn't pass up the chance for a good ribbing.

[@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595]

syncerus.mr 🤣

[@derrick4833]

@@syncerus416 "ribbing" ha!

[@ASPextra]

Haha I ain't wasting no groceries!

[@Elessar762]

Given that in combat conditions most rounds fired miss the target completely, do you think we sometimes put too much worry into things like pellet flyers or over penetration, etc?

[@ASPextra]

No. Just the opposite. We need to be BETTER, not worse. :)

[@kipperwhite2976]

TY 4 ur intel always good 2 know info! R only defense weapon is a single barrel shotgun now! As a DAV so long 4 a good 9MM !

[@lofdefence]

Love the videos, John 🇨🇦

[@JuiceJive]

I'm glad I bought a case of FliteControl #1 buck when it was available, several years ago.

[@marzcapone9939]

HOw is the pattern on those? Most #4 for me spreads too fast.

[@JuiceJive]

@@marzcapone9939 I used to know the figure off the top of my head, but it stays plenty tight out of my 20" Mossberg cylinder bore. I haven't had any issues with #4's that use a similar wad, either. Like the Hornady #4 Varmint Express with Versatite. So long as I'm running a cylinder bore, anyhow.

[@Whitehawkvisionfilms]

Vang Comp is a game changer... they are awesome!

[@masonraley4585]

Very cool sights

[@groosha6]

I've been unable to find Federal FliteControl 8 pellet 00 buck online for months! And I don't see it on Federal's website. Is it just not out there due to the current ammo climate, or do they not make it anymore, or...?

[@ASPextra]

Ammo crisis. I just bought a case online last week. It’s out there if you look hard and are persistent.

[@guardianminifarm8005]

Outstanding.

[@Robmancan1987]

I come to the comment section to find subject matter experts.

[@scottcampbell2836]

Most of the YT vids content i was doing in the 90s. As far as shooting things. Old news to me although better ammo is always welcome.

[@Robert-qm7yi]

Does this video need a meat target? You be the judge

[@Bongface.]

Oranges to simulate lung tissue.

[@carebear8762]

@@Bongface. Hang a banana off the bottom, see where the low flyers go...

[@Uberragen21]

@@carebear8762 - I think a pork sausage might approximate the intended tissue better. 😉

[@TheWtfnonamez]

Robert can you read this comment mate?

[@Markyymark662]

I’m happy either way. Flite control shoots 1 hole in all the distances in my house so I kinda like the performance better with my full choke and regular non flite control 00 buck, because it’s pretty tight all stay on target but not so tight if I miss my target by 2 inches none of the pellets will hit the target like flite control lol, so I could go either way really!

[@brianoswald1067]

The Haugt/Mbogo Safari sight cat is out of the bag. Wonder how long or how many request it will take til it's in the Vang catalog? That is a great idea.

[@InGratitudeIam]

Very helpful demonstration, gents. There was a stray pellet from the magnum load at the 6 o'clock position, just off target from Matt's SBS. The second target was impressive. I use the Federal Reduced Recoil 8 pellet 00 buck for that reason. I also had Hans work on my barrel as well. It's a great combination. Hans is a great guy.

[@Markyymark662]

Nice video, finally got a couple hundred rounds of flite control, bought a Carlson 18.5in threaded barrel for my 2007 model factory black 870xcs marine magnum, and I love it, for some reason flite control didn’t do as well with my factory fixed barrel but with the cylinder choke in the Carlson barrel gosh a mighty it’s a tight pattern at 20yds. So I’m happy already but Might as well send that factory black ruff texture coated 18.5in barrel to vang comp and let them do their magic sense I won’t be down a barrel I have a great functioning barrel for my flite control while I wait for vang to do my other barrel

[@ChristofHarper]

While I understand the limitations of target prep, the test isn't great, and the prejudgements are a major detractor from the data quality

[@Tetrahydracannabinols]

I’m looking to get in the shotgun game. I’ve shot a few of my buddies and everything I shoot I want one. The rifle is fun and all, but I want to become proficient with a shotgun, just don’t know where to start. What are some things I should look for and avoid when looking at shotguns in order to craft them for what I need? I have a rifle and a handgun that I consider home defense guns and I would want the shotgun to function similarly. Can you give any advice. Thanks in advance.

[@triston5515]

15 yds is a bit deep. For a shotgun envelope. I love #4 buck

[@heyboy33333]

Thats what I use. I tested mine out at about half that distance and it patterned fine.

[@ASPextra]

I think that for home defense 15 yards is the minimum I want to be able to reach out. Minimum.

[@Robert-qm7yi]

The longest shot in my house is 15 yards, so it's not at all unreasonable to test at 15 yards

[@matthaught4707]

It's very context-dependent. The longest shot in my house is probably about 15 yards, but that's due to some odd architecture. Someone living in a one-bedroom apartment might not have a shot past 7 or 10 yards. Someone living in a rural area might have need to shoot even further. We picked 15 yards because that's not an unreasonable distance in a suburban American home, and coincidentally where you generally see old-style buckshot start to spread to the point that it's losing pellets off a target.

[@heyboy33333]

@@ASPextra I think it's subjective. My house was built in 1918. The longest clear shot in my house is 28 feet. Even though the house's entire sq footage is 2900, I still only have 28ft of clear shot distance at its longest. I have 3 kids each with their own rooms. The bird shot I tested patterns fine at 19-10 yards and will have trouble over penetrating through my plaster lath walls which have 1/2" dry wall on top.

[@racer14glr91]

I've got to pattern my new LTT 1301. Got to find some FC buckshot

[@marzcapone9939]

Good content! I have had as good results from cylinder bore, IC, and MOD fixed chokes with the 00 Buck flight control, from several shotguns, all without the Vang Comp mods. I own some Vang Comp products, and would buy more. But, the FC wad works great with or without.

[@ASPextra]

Yeah it really does.

[@finngamesknudson1457]

Flight control is not cheap these days. Thinking it might be cheaper to get a better/tighter shotgun. Have maverick 88 with cylinder bore. To date have only shot rio 9-pellet 00 - which yielded spread of well over 3’ at 40 yards. Was so bad I could only get any hits on full size target about half the time. Entire target was in the donut! Absolutely unusable for home (or any other) defense unless I go with slugs.

[@marzcapone9939]

@@finngamesknudson1457 What patterns you get at 5-10 yards? For HD, at least inside, that's all you need to worry about. Can you get a different barrel for yours, with a tighter choke or a choke system?

[@finngamesknudson1457]

@@marzcapone9939 - Few opportunities to pattern. I do figure a case of fed flight control would fix it for a while. Only tighter chokes I’ve seen are removable in 22” barrels. It is a cheap gun, separate barrels cost more than a whole gun for something this cheap. Hence thinking a whole gun may be best solution, as a case of fed flat control costs about the same as an inexpensive shotgun.

[@marzcapone9939]

@@finngamesknudson1457 I have some FFC, and use some at the range. IMO, you can get a few boxes of it or the Hornady stuff, to have for HD or self defense. Otherwise, buy a cheap case of whatever for practice or SHTF. Finding anything you want these days is tricky, and expensive. I have a case of Noble Sport #4 Buck, but only got a few boxes of Hornady's #4 buckshot, 24 pellet with their VesaTite Wad, same as FFC. I may prefer the pattern of the cheap Nobel Sport inside a home, the Hornady would do head shots across the room.

[@SupertankerPrime]

If you can find them, try out the Federal reduced recoil Flitecontrol #4 buckshot. I live in a condo, so overpenetration is a concern. In my 18.5" 590A1, factory cylinder bore barrel, all 34 pellets consistently stay inside 9" at 18 yards. Anything under 10 yards is basically a ragged hole. But this was not an easy ammo to find in normal times, probably impossible right now. I keep a few of the same round in 00 buck in the sidesaddle, as they conveniently shoot to the same point of impact.

[@ASPextra]

If your plan is to miss, no round will work.

[@Markyymark662]

My 1oz slugs have a tighter pattern than that whussie flight control. I’ve had both and I’ve also hunted and killed lots of things with both and I’m sticking to my slugs!

[@ASPextra]

Slugs have a place, but ignoring FC is a big mistake.

[@Markyymark662]

@@ASPextra lol nah it really is good stuff I m just mad cuz I can’t get ahold of any FC and I ordered some from outdoorunlimitedsuperstore for a outrageous price and it wasn’t FC like it advertised. But I’m sticking to slugs until I find FC or I’d like to get vang comp to doctor my barrel up that might would help! I have couple hundred 2-3/4 00buck but In regular stuff with my HD barrel it’s just too much of a spread

[@HighSpeedNoDrag]

You boys are in outstanding Stud condition

[@candyman__87]

Just curious, why the preference of the 8 pellet over the same load with 9 pellets? That said, I've found the LE13200 load patterns very well, never even tried the LE13300.

[@ogdenmills9666]

9 pellets increases the chance of a flier going off/out of the typical spread. Note how some of the targets had a pellet or two that were pretty far from the rest, 9 pellet has a higher chance of doing something like that.

[@candyman__87]

​@@ogdenmills9666 Not sure I follow. By that notion, 8 has a better chance of 7, and 7 has a better chance than 6. So let's reduce all the pellets until we're left with slugs... A good performing load will be a good performing load regardless of the number of pellets, especially these flight control loads. At the end of the day, if you had an 8 pellet load and a 9 pellet load that grouped the same, would you still go with 8?

[@ogdenmills9666]

@@candyman__87 if I shot a dozen 9 pellet loads and I liked the group and didn't see a flier, I'd go for it. I've seen that with my gun. So go pattern your gun and note if you get any fliers. Also your idea works in theory but doesn't consider diminishing returns. If going from 9 to 8 gets rid of 99.9% of fliers, then why go down? (I have no idea what the % is. I'm just pointing that out. Maybe someone did research around it, but that's a Google search for another day) Anyways, hopefully that adds some clarity around 9 vs 8 pellet loads. Have fun shooting!

[@candyman__87]

@@ogdenmills9666 I've patterned all my guns with the 9 pellet load and noted no noticeable fliers within 15 yards (longest shot I could take in my house). That's why I've never tried the 8 pellet, because the 9 patterns just fine.

[@kevinwaterman1]

Nice video. I might try to take a shotgun class with the Haughts. I don't know what to think about the shotgun patterning in this video. I just read a book by Gabe Suarez titled Fighting with Shotguns published in 2014. I bought another book by him but have not read it yet. In the book he discusses the Gunsite founder - Jeff Cooper who started as a rifle person who designed a shotgun program that emphasized using shotgun like a rifle - .e.g. fist sized patterns (don't know if Gunsite shotgun program still does this). Other trainers followed and started using training around this fist sized pattern. The advantage of fist sized pattern is that you won't have a pellet or two as fliers that could injure someone. But what happens if you are moving or the target is moving then you might not get an accurate hit and have some fliers. If you are in a situation where fliers can hit an innocent party you should transition or in the first place use a rifle or handgun. Using shotguns with fist sized patterns is defeating what the shotgun is designed for. Gabe Suarez defined the mission of the shotgun for close, fast, low light, multiple adversaries, low penetration desirable and ballistic performance increased regardless of shot placement. Interesting viewpoint from all the different shotgun trainers in the world. Right now I think I am leaning towards not buying rounds with less than fist sized patterning.

[@FilthyAmerican]

I prefer a m198 with dpicm on standby but to each thier own.

[@chrisboyd1408]

This is a another good test the federal buckshot looks really really good. However it would be nice to see the most popular home defense guns used for testing such as the Mossberg Shockwave or Remington 870 for those who bought those and have never actually patterned them before.

[@MPGunther1]

I agree

[@matthaught4707]

Shotguns are so variable that there is no real 'representative' sample. I could take three Shockwaves (or 870s, or any other model) off the shelf and it'd be likely that they'd all pattern differently with a given load. The only way to tell how a specific gun will pattern is to go out and pattern it.

[@victordlamini3640]

I have a question shotgun is it ok to use it in close protection or is it only ok if you going to use it for home defence? 🤔

[@jonmeray713]

Victor Dlamini victor,i think the shotgun is good to about 50 yards,i have shot deer at 100 yards with slug however even with a 12 gauge. I think even at yard distances(in america like 30-50 yards) buckshot would work nicely even with a cylinder bore/no choke

[@greenlawnfarm5827]

What did Ahmaud get?

[@jonmeray713]

hay woods seeing as arbaury yanked the shotgun,he dead

[@greenlawnfarm5827]

@@jonmeray713 Yes. He ran at the guy with the gun. It was on video. So i hope they get out of jail soon.

[@jonmeray713]

hay woods i doubt they get found guilty. Dude was a complete idiot as attested by his other police video

[@Maccelerate]

I love these videos. John or commenters, what do you think about Sig p320 compared to other handguns?

[@Cyotis]

I went to the range the other day and did a 9mm rental and shot a bunch of different handguns. The P320 is good but I felt like it recoiled the most out of all the guns we tried. It just has the bigger taller slide. But I was most surprised how similar each gun shot and felt. It really almost doesnt matter as long as you get a name brand and do your fundamentals. These modern striker fired guns will do the work if you do your part.

[@ASPextra]

It's a fine handgun. In the quality tier. Not my first choice, but that's preference.

[@stevecochran9078]

Federal's Flite-Control 00Buck is THE schitt. In tests out of different 870s we had to get out past 25yrds to start getting any appreciable spread.

[@AK-47ISTHEWAY]

Yeah, but 25 yards is not home defense distances. Is your bedroom 25 yards? Do you have a 25-yard hallway in your house? This weird fascination with tight shot pellet groups is merely a fad for most civilians or for those that are in law enforcement. I"ll stick with the "wide spread" of my #4 Buck.

[@flyboytim2009]

Great video as expected. Thanks gentlemen. Quick question, I remember reading somewhere in Beretta’s literature, that of course I can’t find right now, that the 1301 Tactical’s barrel has an extended forcing cone and back boring like is done by Vang. Is this true?

[@ASPextra]

It is true. It's not a true Vang barrel, but it is definitely not like a normal shotgun barrel with improved cylinder choke.

[@flyboytim2009]

Active Self Protection Extra, thanks. Maybe it was this; “ In the year 2000 Beretta introduced the 12-gauge Optima Bore barrel design into some of our competition shotguns. This new barrel utilized a larger internal bore dimension known to some as “back-boring” and required a new choke tube design to give the proper constrictions. The Optima barrels can be identified by locating the letters “OB” stamped next to the barrel gauge stamp. Barrels marked with the "OB" stamp will use the Optima-Choke system.” Here: estore.beretta.com/en-eu/documents/beretta-choke-tubes-identification-suggestions/

[@flyboytim2009]

This would explain why the patterns were so similar between the two guns, and why you get a lot for the money when you buy a 1301 T. Well, except for that 12 pellet load. The Vang was like, “Dang!”...

[@ryanjacobsen9557]

I must say after watching this my M590A1 does just as good or if not better than either of those guns also #4 is what they ended up using in Vietnam a old buddy of mine said it did numbers even out to 80 yards and man does it pattern nicely out of my M590A1 love the capacity 8+1 I also topped it with a EOTech I hit pie plates all day omg at 100 yards with 2 3/4 slugs... Man I like watching y'all's vids keep up the good work oh also to y'all's penetration test of the #4 buck I've taken bunches of deer with #4 plenty of penetration on hair hide meat bone and organs have had some pass through and a often some just stuck under the hide on the other side

[@ASPextra]

There is zero chance they were using #4 at 80 yards.

[@AK-47ISTHEWAY]

Why doesn't Matt have a light on it? I guess he just uses that for training and not for home defense?

[@ASPextra]

This is a test and special snowflake gun, as he described.

[@iyn1911]

Would #4 buck work inside of 15 yards? 10 yards?

[@ASPextra]

Wait till you see the gel.

[@Cyotis]

Loving it!

[@robertezell1916]

I have a true snowflake for sure. I have a Mossberg 930 JM Pro , bone stock except for a Turkey extra full choke I bought out of a clearance bin after Turkey season one year. Had it probably 4 years before I bought the gun, but never opened it. On a whim I opened it and screwed it in and was going to run some coyote loads I load through it just to see how it would pattern. Now I had bought, well I want say just how much I bought but I bought a butt load of Fiocchi low brass 00 buck just to bang steel with. I found it will run pretty much all my semi auto shotguns, all of which are tactical guns, heck it will even run my Benelli 1014 and it is an ammo snob, but I can bet you many of you know that! Got sidetracked, sorry. Well I grabbed a couple of 25 round boxes of this cheap 00 buck thinking I’d run it before trying my hand loads but I had taken out my modified choke before realizing what I’d done so one of my sons said, "dad just try it with that extra full and let’s see just how bad it throws 00 buck pellets everywhere", so I did. At 7 yards it blew almost one ragged hole and all the way out to 45 yards it’s a 10" to 11" spread. Yeah I know, no one believes it till I put it in their hands and they shoot it for themselves. This is the ONLY combo that shoots like that. Crazy!

[@ASPextra]

That's a heck of a pattern!

[@Danogil]

I'll stick with my Mossberg 590 A1 SBR'ed Shockwave and Remington Express Ammunition 12 Gauge 2-3/4" 00 Buckshot 9 pellet( Dept Issue) rounds, it is what all my shotguns are zeroed with. We only used 00 for shotgun, the dept was a State Police Dept working with the Air National Guard. So when we could carry personnel owned firearm this was my Shotgun I used.

[@jpj6780]

What choke are you running in the 1301?

[@ASPextra]

The 1301T is a fixed choke, improved cylinder.

[@jfruser]

I have a HD shotgun that does not like Fed Flite Control 00 regular or reduced recoil...but it shoots Rem green box 000 buck as tight as my other shotguns shoot Fed Flite Control. And my wife's 12ga 870 I set up for her likes the Fed Flite COntrol low recoil 00 loads just fine.

[@ianlong4704]

Are you going to do this with more defense oriented loads like Winchester x?

[@ASPextra]

Defense oriented loads? These were all four defensive loads.

[@matthaught4707]

It doesn't get more defense-oriented than FliteControl

[@schocker3387]

@@matthaught4707 IDK, my foster slugs never pattern over 3/4 of an inch. They are cheaper then flight control too!

[@MPGunther1]

Interesting testing results 👍

[@elcidcampeador9629]

Flight control is amazing

[@ASPextra]

Sorcery!

[@elcidcampeador9629]

@@ASPextra The question may be asked though: if we are searching for tighter and tighter patterns, why not just shoot a slug?

[@SA-yz3kj]

Hmm well that answer my question on the 15 mag shot .ill be putting that up. So when is the gel test come out

[@ASPextra]

We have a couple...you'll likely see at least one next week on the channel.

[@schocker3387]

If you want the tightest groups, look at slugs! They keep them under 1inch out to 100 yards.

[@LewisRenovation]

If your looking for a fist side pattern, why not just shoot a carbine?

[@Uberragen21]

Because most people can't hit the broadside of a barn... Add adrenaline and criminals shooting back and most people will blindly spray and pray. A shotgun has the advantage for those people.

[@jakemartin828]

Because you don't get a fist sized pattern with a single trigger pull in a carbine. You have to shoot multiple times. A single pellet of buckshot is not nearly as effective as a single 5.56 round. But a whole cluster of buckshot? I'd be interested to see someone qualified talking about the differences in the terminal ballistics between those two. Wide patterns do not make up for poor marksmanship, because you are getting less hits where you want them. You don't want a couple pellets to strike your target just anywhere... you want as many pellets hitting an anatomically significant area as fast as possible. A tight grouping shotgun excels at this. Spread decreases lethality - not increases. The only way this isn't true, is if you are gonna argue that a single pellet on target is "good enough". I'm of the opinion that inflicting as much damage as quickly as you can dish it out is how self defense should be approached. If your approach is "one pellet somewhere significant is all I need" then sure, go for a wider pattern I guess. It would increase your margin of error as long as you keep the spread between individual pellets smaller than your intended target's size. This isn't even touching on the problem of pellets missing your target and hitting someone else.

[@ASPextra]

It's a good question. The answer to that should be its own video, but here's a nutshell. The "standard response" today with a 5.56 carbine is to shoot someone 5-7 times. With a defensive load like FC 8-pellet 00 Buck, you get that same standard response from one press of the trigger and so your incapacitation capacity is the same as a carbine, but your actual dwell time to make that happen is less.

[@ASPextra]

(also, a good FC wad at short distances makes plated buckshot act like pool balls)

[@schocker3387]

@@ASPextra slugs will do the same thing and wont be over 3/4 inch pattern.

[@canalzonebratt90]

Great video and content. Are you still on your weight loss journey? I’m trying to get lighter. But it’s good to see gun guys with man bod like mine.

[@ASPextra]

It's been hard, man. COVID makes all things suck. :) But I am back at it.

[@matthaught4707]

Ugh. I had been on a pretty good weight loss and conditioning track before the 'Rona hit. I miss BJJ so much :(

[@shockerjm6]

How about a Phoenix ASP Matt Haught class for your you-tube subscribers? Keep it under a day and $125, and I'm in! Get federal to sponsor ammo and I'd do it twice!

[@edwardbowley4648]

How about a plain old pump not that nfa.stuff

[@ASPextra]

Won’t change much in these loads. Depends on the barrel of course. Mbogo is a Vang Comp barrel so it patterns tightly for a 14” gun.

[@SVTBansheeman]

The comments I see here and on other shotgun videos seem people live in a world of make believe. Just because you have a tight pattern does NOT mean you won't miss. It also doesn't mean all your pellets will stay in the bad guy. So you really actually need to build walls like your home is made of. For example 16" on center solid sheet etc. Multiple of those. And see how many it goes through. Chances are if you house isn't brick, it will go through many walls and buckshot, pistols or a rifle isn't right if you are worried about over penetration.

[@av1204]

SVTBansheeman building my home now. Icf (concrete) exterior walls with impact glass.

[@robertezell1916]

I bet for suppressive fire with a shotgun that 3 inch, 15 pellets of 00 buck would keeps some heads down @ 50 yards though. 😂

[@ASPextra]

lol

[@pittster57]

My thoughts john, if it holds any merit, my opinion on shot gun home defense is this. Great option for multiple attackers. As seen on your channel, if I see 5 to 10 guys running into my house, I'll use the shot gun because of spread, but 1 or 2 guys might just go for my pistol or my pcc, but of course the heat of the moment could change those actions

[@orenthalsimpson]

I just got the notification for this video that I watched 5 days ago

[@AK-47ISTHEWAY]

Ok

[@russellanthon9615]

Great information. Empirical evidence beats opinion any day of the week.

[@ASPextra]

Truth!

[@backwardog1]

Picked up a Mossberg at 12 yrs old to hunt dove. 40 yrs later that dove gun is rigged for home defense. Buck is devastating at any distance in the home. My worry is pellets that find other targets than my origin target. Real intrested in info on reduced power and penetration buck that might be a better choice for in home use. Also finding a tactical shotgun training range is real tough in the central U.S. even if you dont mind driving. Suggestions?

[@ASPextra]

That Federal Flite Control 8-pellet 00 is pretty good.

[@scottcampbell2836]

Watch Paul's video on overpenetration and learn. I changed down from double and triple to no 4 buck. You own every pellet from every shot fired. Best they stay out of innocent bystanders.

[@wilburpost7977]

Flight Control negates the advantage of a shotgun. May as well use slugs or an AR.

[@ASPextra]

Completely disagree.

[@plaid13]

Just how big are your homes that you are taking 15 yard shots at people? I have an average size house and that would mean the longest possible range. 45 feet is a long way indoors. Thinking it would be closer to half that the majority of the time. Across a room or down a hall. In that case the wider spreading rounds are much more reasonable . at 20 foot or so is that flight control out of the wad yet? If its not you would be better off with a more conventional load. I think around a 6 inch spread would be ideal to be sure you have the highest chance at hitting something important. Heart or spine or any major support bone to stop them as quick as possible.

[@ASPextra]

That’s one approach but not my preference. Having a column of shot is ideal.

[@plaid13]

@@ASPextra If you want all the damage in one big hole like that might want to check out some of the modern expanding slugs some of those things open up to about an inch and a half or others split apart into a a dozen little parts. That is one of the best thing about shotguns. Lots of options on what to shoot to get exactly what works best for what you want.

[@Purple_Wayne]

It's a great argument for putting someone down faster with the flight control, but I do also love the idea of increased hit probability with the heavier payloads. Idk I swing back and forth on this subject all the time. Great video though.

[@ASPextra]

Shotguns are known for putting people down with the first solid hit, so I worry about fliers and innocents.

[@Purple_Wayne]

All of those loads would have been on target if he aimed center mass, and if you miss then it doesn't matter anyway.

[@pcnorton]

How about at in house ranges? 45 feet is a long shot. compare actual measurements to your house when patterning.

[@ogdenmills9666]

They did what they considered max distance for hd, like long hallway or yard/driveway. Anything closer will just tighten the patterns up.

[@pcnorton]

@@ogdenmills9666 Exactly, so what is unacceptable at max range is more likely adequate in a real household distance. I live in Mass and going outside isn't going to fly in court.

[@ogdenmills9666]

@@pcnorton I could see that. That's why you pattern your gun to the max distance you could possibly face, and then use the ammo that best fits your story.

[@6254KLR]

I don't see any need for a super tight pattern in a home defense shotgun. The distances are must likely going to be under seven yards and you will lose the advantage of the spread. The military even made a device to INCREASE the spread of shotgun in tight quarters at one time.

[@ASPextra]

That was a huge mistake, and you're showing ignorance on ballistics wanting more spread. A column of bees is preferable to a swarm, a swarm is preferable to one single bee.

[@6254KLR]

@@ASPextra Ok, I will give you that. Would you agree that inside the house at a max distance of 7 yards, it really wouldn't make a difference on a human?

[@ASPextra]

I would not. kzbin.info/www/bejne/o3PTdX5orbmYZ5I

[@SVTBansheeman]

I dont worry about a couple off hit area pellets. That is because I already made the decision in the event I miss, I'm not worried about over penetration of walls.

[@ASPextra]

Not worried about innocents?

[@matthaught4707]

If you live alone out in the middle of nowhere, maybe. But you are accountable for every projectile you send downrange, and they're all gonna hit something.

[@nickamalfitano3613]

Active Self Protection Extra in my case innocents aren’t an issue. I live alone in a stucco house in FL in a neighborhood of houses that are built the same way. Outside walls are block. Besides windows (Which would be bad news) nothing under a high powered rifle likely to make it through and potentially harm others

[@SVTBansheeman]

@@ASPextra no. We live far enough from people. Plus if we did have closer neighbors, any buck shot or pistol worth a damn would over penetrate. Then I'd be stuck with bird shot. With that said, I don't use a shotgun for home defense. Too hard to use and bulky. Asking about innocents leaves me to believe when you think you have the magical ability to hit EVERY shot you will need. Or ever pellet will stay in the intended target. To believe this to be absolutely false in most scenarios.

[@167idpa]

What was the 4-buck load?

[@matthaught4707]

It was some really old stuff, IIRC Federal. Old enough that, while it had a plastic hull, it was roll-crimped over a cardboard wad. John said his dad found it in his basement, and given that damn near everyone is out of stock on various types of buckshot, it was the only #4 buck we could get our hands on at short notice.

[@ElijahHunter77]

Thanks for a good educational video! Now, you, John, made a video on pistol calibers the other year, right? Why don't try cover all of the variations for shotguns? Ah?

[@ASPextra]

Patience!

[@mozzberg590]

Matt, please tell me what shirt you're rocking?

[@matthaught4707]

That one's a Johari West shirt that I picked up off Amazon. They're inexpensive and light, which makes them great for summer shooting. Pretty much all my shirts are from there or Wilderness Tactical Products. I like the latter for their Southwestern-themed patterns and bomb-proof construction.

[@av1204]

What is the point of a small group buck shot... a slug is a zero group.

[@MikiBreki]

Nice

[@perfectfan2006]

ok try a 835 ulti mag 3.5 inch with 00 love the gun enemies hate it so cool

[@392HemiM59]

My good pastor and friend, please work on getting rid of that belly. It is very bad for your heart. We care about you and need you to keep doing all that you do for us. Tell that great wife of yours to stop being a great cook. Love much.

[@ASPextra]

So you know what my health is, huh? Without asking any further questions? My blood work? BP? RHR? Any of that?

[@loganhoy2265]

Imagine having to worry about a stray pellet hitting two feet away across your house lol (brought to you by AR home defense gang)

[@matthaught4707]

I don't. (brought to you by the FFC/VangComp home defense gang)

[@schocker3387]

@Daniel W About the same as 00 buck.

[@b.griffin317]

Note that 9-pellet flite control is WAY different from 8-pellet. In my testing a while ago it was about half way between generic 9 pellet and 8PFC.

[@matthaught4707]

As a general rule, I've found that the 8-pellet is the tightest out of most guns, followed by the reduced-recoil 9-pellet, then the full-power 9-pellet. Both of the 9-pellet loads tend to fling that 9th pellet a bit wide of the other 8, and on average the full-power loading does it farther. That said, I've seen a few guns that seem to prefer the 9-pellet loads and shoot them tighter. It's very individualistic, as all shotguns are. I had a student bring a plain-jane 90s-vintage Mossberg 500 to class one time, and it printed super tight with the reduced-recoil 9-pellet load, but didn't like the 8-pellet nearly as much. All the more reason to go out and test the loads in YOUR gun(s).

[@carlosschmitt9978]

muy bueno

[@AK-47ISTHEWAY]

You're shooting from 15 yards... why? That's not exactly considered home defense distances. Most defensive shootings are between 4 and 7 yards. I don't know anybody that has a bedroom 15 yards long. Nor do I know anybody that has a hallway 15 yards long.

[@ASPextra]

I know dozens of people with 15 yard shots inside their home, and dozens and dozens and dozens who have 15 yard shots on their property.

[@AK-47ISTHEWAY]

@@ASPextra You must live in a state that has that "Castle Law" adopted. Not everyone lives in a free state like that and if we did take a 15-yard shot in our house or especially outside our property then we would be the ones going to prison not the bad guy. I think you should put a disclaimer on some of your videos because you are giving out real bad advice if you think most people would be justified in taking shots that long even if it's to defend themselves.

[@ASPextra]

There's not a single state in the Union where the duty to retreat exists in the home. None. Even without black letter law, that is a fact.

[@atumre4705]

Best Shotgun video ever!

[@Kevin_Darensbourg]

Vang comp barrels are a gimmick and not worth the money, can’t even hold a pattern at 15 yards. Regarding this test I have more than one fighting shotgun which will hold patterns 50% tighter at 25 yards. Leave the gimmick where it is and spend money on ammo and practice and/or train.

[@ASPextra]

You are the first person I've ever heard say that about Vang.... I know many expert level shotgunners that swear by them. I'd love to see some video of that shotgun that holds a 50% better pattern at 25 yards because that sounds almost too good to be true but I'm open to having my mind changed.

[@griffin5226]

If we're determining viability for home defense, 15 yards is pretty far don't ya think?

[@echofoxtrotwhiskey1595]

Maybe. Depends on your circumstances.

[@jamesg7685]

Ben Avery range rules dictated that distance on the main range. Not sure if those rules hold on this particular smaller rage or not.

[@17thwhiteprince]

Do you want to be closer

[@syncerus416]

Within the home, perhaps. But on the property, certainly not.

[@ASPextra]

Not really. Most home hallways can easily be that long.

[@HK-qj4im]

Respectfully gonna disagree. First the good..one shot on one piece of paper..👍 Then you are using a shotgun like a rifle...? In home defense? Why not just use an AR then? #4 buck..👍👍I live in an average sized home. 20 ft shots might be called for. I highly doubt, in home defense, I need 25 yards. But these are opinions of a internet nobody...me. Good video. Nobody can get Federal Flight control right now anyway. Dance with the gurl that brought ya.

[@AK-47ISTHEWAY]

I agree with you. I bought several boxes of that Hornady Critical Duty double-ought buckshot awhile ago and it over penetrates through gel blocks. At least the test that I've done. All eight pallets including the wad passed clear through the gel. The pellets never even separated from the wad. They hit like a slug. I'll stick to #4 buck.

[@Je3perscre3pers]

someone tell me where i can get flight control wads

[@ASPextra]

Just the wad? I don't think you can. You can get the Federal Flite Control 00 Buck online. I recommend the 8 pellet.

[@Je3perscre3pers]

@@ASPextra its not cheap lol thats why just the wads would be legit. federal sells shotshell wads just not those.

[@matthaught4707]

@@Je3perscre3pers dude I wish I could just buy FFC wads. I'd be home-brewing some 20ga #1 buck loads with them.

[@Je3perscre3pers]

@@matthaught4707 right? shotgun reloading is stupid cheap when you consider shotguns use pistol powder and theirs always 209 primers.

[@immikeurnot]

I've been looking for a couple of years, and haven't found the source. That said, Federal doesn't manufacture them, some third party does because Hornady uses the same wad and calls it Versatite.

[@timtaylor4122]

The joy of a shotgun 4 home defense is point an shoot. I'm not concerned about shooting through my wall. No homes near me. If it stops the bad guy that's all that matters.

[@ASPextra]

That's an utter myth. You must aim a defensive shotgun.

[@matthaught4707]

Yeah, it's real easy to miss, even with a shotgun. Movies and video games make people think you can just point it down a hallway and sweep things clean, but that is not reality.

[@carebear8762]

@@matthaught4707 You kind of off-handedly mentioned the "1" for every yard" traditional rule of thumb. I use that to point out to folks that in a 36-42" wide 20 foot residential hallway, much less living or dining room, there's a lot of space that isn't bad guy for that

[@matthaught4707]

@@carebear8762 Dad likes to say "It's not that hard to hit with shotgun, but it's real easy to miss."

[@thenewgunnertrw2025]

All firearms need to be aimed. If your first instinct is to just point shoot at any distance farther than your arms length, you should get some training. I know some people can hit an aspirin in the air from the hip, but 99.8% of gun owners cant. Judicious marksmanship is a must.

[@stevenkennedy4130]

I'll stick with my Remington 870 & Rio 00, & #4 Buck. Thanks tho!

[@stevenkennedy4130]

@@rifleshooterchannel208 I think so too. ;-)

[@matthaught4707]

You may change your mind on the #4 buck after the next video comes out. As for Rio, I've shot a bit of their stuff, and it's essentially the same 1890s-tech buckshot as any other inexpensive brand. They do make a #1 buck load for the 20ga, which I plan on testing out in the future.

[@stevenkennedy4130]

I might. But I doubt it. #4 BS, is just flat out brutal, on coyotes. Prolly make the same mess on the 2 legged critter, as well...

[@matthaught4707]

@@stevenkennedy4130 a coyote's a fair bit smaller than a human being.

[@stevenkennedy4130]

@@matthaught4707 you are correct.

[@MNvikfan]

If you want a tight pattern run a slug

[@ASPextra]

Slugs have a place too, but it's not generally here.

[@MNvikfan]

@@ASPextra true but most people don't have 15 yards in there house

[@av1204]

#6 or 7 in home.

[@ASPextra]

No. No no no.

[@av1204]

@@ASPextra any videos on why? I've seen some pretty good 7-10 yard shots with ribs. Over penetration isnt nearly as bad. Stopped after two sheets of dry wall.

[@Awesomeness43152]

Serious question. I understand you don't want to much spread in a home defense situation. However why not cut out the middle man and just use the rifle rather then try to make a shotgun perform like a rifle.? I would just like to have a strong understanding of all schools of thought.

[@matthaught4707]

You could absolutely use a rifle. That said, per trigger press, the shotgun is going to be more effective on average. This goes back to something Tom Givens talks about: the concept of 'serving size'. Pretty much every serious real-world user of fighting carbines trains to deliver 3-5 shots per target. That means your 30rd mag gives you between 6 and 10 'servings', and it takes a certain amount of time to deliver those servings per target. The average tube-fed shotgun gives a similar number of servings (5-10 depending on model/configuration), but takes less time to deliver each one to the target (one trigger press vs. 3-5 presses/sight picture acquisitions/recovery). Up close, the shotgun is the fastest way to deliver a 'serving' to a target. The carbine is much faster to reload to full capacity, no argument there, but the shotgun can get a single serving loaded into an empty gun very very quickly. The carbine is a more versatile weapon, in that it can be effective up close as well as out to a few hundred yards. The shotgun is more limited in terms of range, but for most home defense situations, that's not going to be a factor. As always, your situation provides the necessary context with which to make your decisions. If your situation includes the need to make accurate fight-stopping hits at 200 yards, then the shotgun is likely not the right choice and the carbine likely is.

[@ASPextra]

Good question Anthony! Matt answered it for sure.

[@Awesomeness43152]

Thanks! Good answer Matt didn't think about it like that. Love the videos John keep it.

[@matthaught4707]

Absolutely a valid question. And it makes clear to me that we need to discuss that point more in future videos.

[@vpiRY]

Snowflake 😂

[@immikeurnot]

Flite Control all day long.

[@ASPextra]

Err day!

[@schocker3387]

Deer slugs give you less then 1inch at 15 yards!

[@heathmarcum5390]

I would NOTT rely on this guys advice, in general and I’m referring to the YT creator and his channel, he shows good vids on situations. But his personal opinions ughhh. And his persona of his experience is also ughhh. This is coming from someone with real world experience.

[@ASPextra]

Well let’s see your CV. Mine is publicly available and approved by the national experts in the field.

[@scottcampbell2836]

Wrong tool for the job. If home defense is the purpose then short barrel wrong choice. My 20 in 590 would keep pattern about head size 40 to 50 feet. In 1996. I was shooting bowling pins. Used but unshot. And pattern at 20 feet or less? I want a blob of goo where my shot charge lands. Not a pretty pattern. At room distances you be lucky to have shot be open hand size. From a 20 in cylinder bore. And the idea a short shotty is needed is absurd. If you cant walk in your own home with a standard length shotgun and not get austin powered turning corners you got no reason being around guns of any kind.

[@ASPextra]

I don't think you watched, Scott.

[@b.griffin317]

15 yards is not realistic for HD.

[@ASPextra]

Go take a measurement from your master bedroom door to your front door or the longest sight you have there. Report back what you find. In my home it's 19 yards.

[@alt5494]

Unless the owner is living in a restricted state. A pump action shotgun is a poor tool choice. A shotgun has a high shot weight, but each pellet is not even compact pistol caliber energy on target. And that's before reduced power defense loads are even considered. Low penetration is perfect until your opponent decides to use cover.

[@ASPextra]

I disagree with a lot of this. First off, in home defense situations I have literally never seen a perp use cover to continue a fight. Ever. So that's a thing. Second, I think you discount the effectiveness of 8 simultaneous pellets all impacting. In about an hour there's a video on the main channel that well illustrates what a proper load of buckshot does to someone, and it's very different than a pistol. Third, I think it ignores the pool ball effect of a column of shot.

[@alt5494]

@@ASPextra You are thinking of cover only as a object. People often take cover around doorways/hallways. A angle wall is more than sufficient to stop shot. Double aught pellets weigh 53.8 grains with a 8.38mm (.33") diameter. Every two pellots roughly equals a single 9mm round they do have the advantage of two entry wounds, but also over three times the air drag stripping energy on the way to the target. Advanced projectile design does not exist for shot pellets. Target effect is entirely base the random location of flat spots and imperfections on the round pellets. Shotguns trade accuracy for hit probability, but also use fixed sights almost guaranteed not to be zeroed for the load being fired or correct amount of drop for the distance being shot. It's often said that it is easy to miss because of pattern size across a room. It is rarely mentioned that shooting at half the distance the shotgun is zeroed at will place the pattern to a entirely different point of aim. For anyone other than a skilled shooter firing a 12 gauge indoors at night it will also destroy their situational awareness with possibly hearing damage with basic ear protection(if it even used). You mentioned shot column even this is not a advantage since when the pellots impact closely they tend to act similarly to a single project. Overwhelming soft tissue and punch straight though. Dramatic shot spread inside the target has not been show well as most testing for effects uses undersized gel blocks. When a small block is used it provides the exact opposite effect of a torso providing a slim but long analog instead of a shallow but wide analog. In the block the greatest resistance is to forward motion increasing spread. The opposite of the torso which the greatest resistance is to the radius of the impact decreasing lateral spread. Assuming the tester actually calibrated the gel to properly test to begin with. People associate recoil with energy transfer on target this is completely wrong. Recoil is the result the equal and opposite reaction of the weight of projectile verses combined weight of firearm and shooter under the total force of the propellent. This is the reason hundreds of pounds energy go downrange while only a few dozen is produced as felt recoil. However shotgun with a very projectile weight to powder charge ratio produce the greatest recoil for the least effect. The equation for projectile energy is half mass x velocity squared. Velocity is four times the value of Mass. A shotgun is poor value at the muzzle getting progressively worse as it travels downrange. I did not say a handgun is superior to a shotgun I said each pellet is similar to a low powered pistol caliber. A full size high capacity handgun is roughly equal to a pump action shotgun with the advantage of greatly reduced user error. A well setup carbine is the ideal for home defense with numerous advantages not the least of is ability for your partner to effectively utilize it to defend themselves when you are not there. Not only can they easily size it to fit themselves by adjusting the stock position, but can be eased into training with fun painless range trips. Is a shotgun the closest thing to a one shot stop probably yes, but why would you bet your life on that verses a fusillade of well aimed high velocity rifle fire???

[@alt5494]

Rather bizarre that new video you referenced was in my family's home town. On topic the officer made a superb expert shot into the heart and valve cluster. Multiple projectiles into that point will stop any fight. How is it anymore davastating than multiple carbine shots to the same point?? Recommending a shotgun over a carbine is exactly the same as recommending a magnum revolver over a double stack 9mm. It is usable but certainly less than ideal. My job is as a firearm design engineer I would highly encourage you run your own numbers.