Perceived Injustices From The Past And Pre-Big Bang | Omar-CA | Talk Heathen 05.28

[@krishnav5122]

Atheists: "we don't know" theists: "You are wrong"

[@devowanaudio]

I just don't see how Omar could listen to this conversation back and not be embarrassed.

[@cade377]

I don't think he's capable of being embarrassed.

[@jeffc5974]

He did it with the previous one, so I think it's perfectly possible.

[@TheSnoeedog]

I came across his mother watching this clip....she exclaimed "Goddamnit! i knew i should have swallowed that load! ....or at least made my brother pull out!"

[@lulolie]

You think he would actually try to reflect?

[@Viambiladus]

In the same way he looks at trees and sees god

[@DiMadHatter]

Omar, you dont understand the moving goalpost fallacy. I listened to a previous call with the same accusation, they explained how you're wrong, and you still come up with it.

[@Actually_Zahren]

"But this argument works 100% of the time when I use it in my head. So since it's not working in this call you must have moved the goalpost from where it was in my head..." I think Omar might need a class in basic logic and what constitutes a fallacy

[@stephenkiernan8520]

He was so smug when he got passed to JMIKE then got so funking burned in the first sentence. Love it.

[@petyrkowalski9887]

Tag team beat down😂

[@NotAPacifist825]

Mike is a juggernaut

[@trudysfun]

when someone calls a show with 2 hosts and only greets 1... it really demonstrates the type of person they are...

[@starlaminde8436]

Yes you are so right! I’ve seen it a lot and usually the callers are major a**holes

[@pharmtechz]

Pre-bang like astrological foreplay.

[@glorfburfington9676]

Made me smile even if just for a second. Thanks my guy.

[@jmike2039]

Lmfao

[@Irongaint]

Precum

[@tshepokgwele1789]

@@Irongaint as in, precum into existence? 😂

[@charliethecoyote2896]

Do you mean unsatisfying on it's own?

[@ryansmith5267]

Omar is the first contestant AND the first loser on the new gameshow "Name That Fallacy!"

[@KrustyKlown]

"what is, I got a Bible?"

[@phrozenwun]

I love this idea, I think I will try to set up some rules and play with my kids so they learn how to avoid dishonest and manipulative people later in life. Anyone want to chime in with some ideas of game play?

[@dlon8899]

😂😂😂

[@meloveAi]

@@phrozenwun Situation cards like "Give me your lunch money/toy" And then have fallacy cards like "Argument authority fallacy: Because my mom says so"

[@tentalagim]

@@phrozenwun it's an actual card game, rationality rules made it.

[@grantwing4942]

Omar sounds like a jilted lover or even a stalker with his obsession of Matt on his calls.

[@brianharbort6728]

I don't know what is creepier. Obsessing/stalking on someone you like or obsessing/stalking on someone you don't like.

[@ghostpacas7600]

Yes it seems like he’s obsessed with listening too all of Matt’s episodes and trying to find a fallacy to call and whine about it, creepy as hell. He’s obsessed with Matt, this isn’t the first time he calls to whine and complain.

[@benjaminnowack8433]

My favorite part of this call is when Omar said, "You said that. You can listen to the recording. I'm not lying." As if Matt just accused him of lying. Matt politely grants that he may very well have said it that way and doesn't remember, like a normal person. And then, I go back in the recording and to my astonishment, Matt didn't say that and Omar was lying.

[@Penfold101]

I love how Jesus is a co-host on this show - it’s very meta.

[@TheOurple]

LOL

[@iancastor69]

That's the first time I've seen JMike get annoyed, I like it!!

[@saikoakuma]

As soon as it cut back to Matt at the end of the call I knew he was playing chess, which made me laugh more than I expected. I figured that he needed a distraction so that he wouldn’t start jumping all over Omar and his arrogant condescension.

[@alanhyland5697]

"T=0 is is for the most part is up for grabs..." Well put.

[@marasmusine]

Hmm that's not the first time I've heard a caller say that "I don't know" isn't a valid answer.

[@kaiza6467]

Wasn’t there another caller who said “something is either true or false, so you’re never allowed to say you don’t know something.”? I guess some people are just too terrified to admit that they don’t know lol.

[@starfishsystems]

I've seen the converse on occasion too, where a caller insists that "I don't know" is a valid truth state. No, it's an example of an UNDEFINED truth state. Sometimes we find it convenient to construct systems which represent such states explicitly, either as permitted values or through the system itself performing some exceptional behavior. But in terms of representing the underlying formalism, it's sufficient for the system to simply NOT FUNCTION in the presence of undefined values.

[@jaege]

Weird isnt it? If he asks me his middle name and I say I dont know, is that also wrong? Is there a problem with that answer too?

[@acason4]

Oh, it’s the “I don’t know fallacy”… 😆

[@clintonvoigt]

I've had other Christians do that too. As soon as I say I don't know, they go " aha, got you. Proof of god"!!

[@Mavuika_Gyaru]

Yeah thiests love using the god of the gaps logical fallacy. Which is "oh you dont have an answer? Well I do and it's god!"

[@starlaminde8436]

JMike is extremely intelligent and articulate love listening to him

[@hansj5846]

As a 9 year old I asked my Religion teacher "Who created god?" A lot of theists haven't gotten to that question and that is astonishing

[@bellezavudd]

Their most common answer is a full on unproven, untestable, naive assumption. "God is immortal and has always been."

[@LukeSumIpsePatremTe]

@@bellezavudd *immoral

[@bellezavudd]

@@LukeSumIpsePatremTe Are you saying the Abrahamic gods are IMMORAL characters.? Yes, I agree.

[@BassByTheBay]

"Magic."

[@Bravissimo24]

My question at about that age was, “What was God doing for the eternity before deciding to create the world?” The nun did not answer to my satisfaction.

[@freddan6fly]

Omar: If you open your mind too much your brain might fall out.

[@callmeflexplays]

Jmike, want to speculate wildly with me about a topic neither of us is particularly qualified in that is on the frontier of science? Too bad! My butt hurts too much from previous conversations with someone else!

[@glorfburfington9676]

Hey. Don't be hitting the nail on the head like that! I'm no carpenter, but I know you can go around just smashing things with hammers!😂🤣

[@adabsurdum5905]

Dont forget to completely misrepresent the observations of those who are particularly qualified on the subject

[@zedbout]

This dude is an example of Dunning/Kruger on steroids

[@jns8393]

I heard nothing from Omar that supported even the notion of a god.

[@itanus7]

pre-big bang is hypotesis but classical big bang is not about the begining of the universe but when the universe began to expand.

[@donaldcook2484]

Matt and Mike are relentless and incredibly smart. They are impossible to beat

[@grip4us]

Omar is so persecuted, poor baby. Bless his heart

[@IRGeamer]

Never underestimate a narcissists burning lust to manufacture oppression for themselves when faced with even the most reasonable and minor criticism.

[@bdpickett]

Matt did good holding off by playing chess while Jmike tore human new one. I think he should do that whenever he abdicates to a co-host, not only to give them a chance to take these morons on, but also because it's a great demonstration to the caller of just how little the nonsense they say is worth his response.

[@northernbrother1258]

"Matt Dillahunty used a logical fallacy" ergo God!

[@richardcooper9167]

Nutshell.

[@an9l1c1sm6]

I salute you for the way you dealt with this caller. You gave him the right amount of chances. Personally i would have loved to listen to this back and forth for hours.

[@hplovehandle]

Omar is a good example of little knowledge but lots of arrogance.

[@TheDizzleHawke]

Theists just can’t stand “I don’t know.”

[@donaldcook2484]

Jmike is one bad ass and can hold his own with Matt.

[@maxine2798]

Quite a rubbish caller. Learnt nothing from earlier calls. Didn’t bother getting his argument in order. Did what he knows upsets/annoys the presenters and then whines it isn’t going his way. Twerp

[@dlon8899]

Imagine a world full of real talking, bullshit detectors like you Maxine? What a wonderful world that would be. Peace. London out

[@maxine2798]

@@dlon8899 thank you. This should be obvious to most people. If it was my world it would be more untidy!!

[@PaulTheSkeptic]

Agree.

[@bigbigfizzi]

I would love to see a debate of Omar vs Canadian Catholic vs Ontanjello.

[@kaiza6467]

Considering what happened when Canadian Catholic and Darth Dawkins debated, their heads would probably explode. Either that or they’d just agree with each other for hours until they bore themselves to sleep.

[@tonydarcy1606]

And don't forget to bring a sleeping bag and ear muffs !

[@toddsheridan1733]

@@kaiza6467 listening to that sounds like it would be absolute torture.

[@kleenex3000]

O'Tangelo is (in)famous for smuggling abstracts into the discourse, subtly implying these abstracts be causal agencies, rather than imaginaries. Many materialists fall into the trap "information causes... "fine tuning causes...

[@bigbigfizzi]

@@kleenex3000 you can respell "ontangelo" to "a long note" if you rearrange the letters. Try it.

[@carter358]

If life were fair, a recording of this call would be playing in Omar's residence 24/7.

[@loomspace]

Matt + JMike shows are like free logic lessons. 🤙

[@lebojay]

I like that JMike makes some important points we don’t hear much on these shows. At 13:00 he talks about the hubris of believing you know what “makes sense” with respect to the beginning of the universe when the world community of experts doesn’t. In another call he asserts that you can’t prove God (or much of anything, really) a priori. These are important points, rarely made, that cut right to the root of some of the most common apologist bullshit. Omar thinks he knows a priori what the world community of particle physicists can’t discover empirically. It’s better to argue about the nonsense of that rather than the trivia of his “discoveries.” I hope more conversations with theists go that way in the future.

[@cy-one]

What does "a priori" mean?

[@lebojay]

@@cy-one Discovered through pure thought, without the use of your senses. In other words, you can’t just sit in a chair and think your way to proving God. Any line of reasoning has to be backed up with evidence detectible to our senses (or to machines acting as artificial senses for us).

[@cy-one]

@@lebojay Although even the results of those machines need our own senses to be perceived, they'd only really "translate" stuff, in a way. Thanks for the explanation :)

[@lebojay]

@@cy-one Correct. You’re welcome!

[@labeled1]

Both of those points have been made on both TH and TAE numerous times, though not by more recent hosts. Matt tends to meet people where they are rather than referring them elsewhere (communities of experts), however, have you heard him ask, "Why are you calling an atheist show and not a physics/science show" or something similar? That's usually how he touches on it.

[@j50wells]

"How do you demonstrate pre Big-Bang? Omar, my deck was wet this morning. I didn't see the rain fall but I knew it had rained during the night. Cosmologists do the same kind of thing regarding the universe by looking back in time. When they get to pre-Big Bang, there wasn't time and space yet, so it would be hard to say what pre Big Bang was like, although with physics and quantum theory they have made some educated guesses, but they are just guesses. We will know more as time goes by. Stay tuned Omar.

[@Lambert1386]

Another raging lunatic, so full of God's love.

[@byteme9718]

JMike just needs a crown of thorns to convince Matt.

[@Baekstrom]

I’m surprised that he didn’t accuse them of committing a category fallacy. That one seems to be a favorite one for theists to go to when they can’t think of any other holes in your argument.

[@atomicsquirrel6457]

Math. Cosmology is immensely complicated physics and to argue that you can demonstrate things about it without the math is arrogant presumption.

[@warrencolegrove1]

Thank you jmike! That was great!

[@brianmonks8657]

The "I don't know" fallacy is a new one for me.

[@bellezavudd]

Muted by 'Rasputin'. Oh boy, do I wish he had an even bigger mute button.

[@Beerglass1980]

People try so hard to get Matt and the FAIL EVERY SINGLE TIME 😂

[@ummmno3871]

I’ve thought I really liked jmike for a while now but this sealed it. Dude is badass

[@robertphillips9017]

Is the answer to the question “what happened before time zero” the same thing ass the question “what happens at temperatures below absolute zero?” ?

[@AquaPeet]

Yeah, or, how do you measure the weight of something that has no mass?

[@TenFalconsMusic]

Caller sounded like Vince Vaughn on an apologetics bender.

[@Enkidu-4U]

Saying that we don't know many things about the universe is the best position to have. Especially since we don't actually know how BIG the universe is. We have an idea but our technology only allows us to see so far and when I say far, I mean back because we're using light as a gage. This new telescope may further our knowledge but it's still early and from what I understand, it's already been damaged by meteors.

[@robinanderson5183]

Matt, you have always been DA MAN! JMike you are also definitely Da Man. This is not a fallacy. Even though DA Man seems to be applied as a singular unit it can also be used in the plural sense. That guy came in with a ton of, as Matt put it, hubris. How is "we don't know" a fallacy? We have plenty of hypotheses. These are not answers which explains why they are still hypotheses and not theories. Thus, the proper answer is WE DON'T KNOW!!!

[@AvaEFF]

I have literally been binging this show and shows like it for YEARS and I can confidently say Omar is the single most annoying caller I have ever heard. Also, it’s cute that Omar clearly just learned the concept of logical fallacies and is now trying to apply them to conversations he’s having 😂

[@hank_says_things]

TLDR: Area Man commits “fallacy fallacy”, whines a lot. I hope Omar watches this back and is embarrassed, because I felt embarrassed for him.

[@nagranoth_]

People like that don't get embarrassed, they're in a never ending cycle of blaming others

[@AlexanderNash]

Well the fallacy fallacy is where you say "your conclusion is wrong because you used a fallacy to get there". This caller didn't even get as far as actually identifying a fallacy.

[@factsheet4930]

"Pre-bang OK?" ~ Commander Shepherd - 2186 CE

[@Rage867]

Omar is thirsty as fuck for Matt

[@thinboxdictator6720]

Look, he doesn't know anything. The amount of stuff that he doesn't know is stupefying. It would blow your mind.

[@atomicsquirrel6457]

Possibly, but I work with someone who doesn’t believe dinosaurs existed, and another who doesn’t accept the electro-magnetic spectrum. I see a lot of stupid.

[@AlexPBenton]

He thinks that the epochs you were talking about came *before* the Big Bang, which I did as well until you clarified it again. He also thinks that when you say that you don’t know what happened before the Big Bang you are actually saying that you do know what happened, but you don’t know how you know it. He’s confused and rambling, and refuses to change his opinion in the face of corrections.

[@phillipseifert694]

Waaa Waaa Waaa ! Whata friggin baby!

[@JoshuaWillis89]

I feel like callers have gotten lazier over the years. This guy calls in to accuse Matt of saying a logical fallacy. He doesn’t have a transcript of what Matt said. I’ve seen several callers where they call in to make an argument based on something the Bible says. They couldn’t quote the passage or identify where in the Bible it says that. Usually the host actually can recall exactly where in the Bible it says what they are referring to from memory. Almost no one who calls even understands what a syllogism is, or even tries to craft a persuasive argument. A lot of them just repeat the same unsupported assertions over and over. Yes, there have always been bad callers, but there also used to be callers who actually prepared ahead of time.

[@fredodonnell3323]

Like most religious ppl, Omar sits in his armchair and ponders the universe using his untrained and credulous mind

[@bpdmf2798]

Simple. Pre bang is foreplay.

[@keithnicholas]

There is no shifting of the goal posts, there are many scientific hypotheticals that are stuck in limbo, like string theory ( and multiverses ), Roger Penrose has a theory known as "conformal cyclic cosmology", these all have lots and lots of math worked out, they point to evidence in observations we have made, but they STILL are not robust enough, and fail meet their scientific burden of proof, the goal post. The "god" hypothesis has the exact same goal post to meet. The god one has been around for a long time, and so far has failed to really get off the ground with anything we could even consider to be viable.

[@stevenboelke6661]

I think Omar fails to understand that if you want to continue to have a argument with someone, you need to argue honestly and assume your interlocutor is doing the same. If not, the argument becomes a complete waste of time. I think Matt poked the bear a bit, but he wasn't wrong. The fact that Omar wanted to talk about previous calls without even having a transcript or recording ready to back him up is also a bad sign.

[@bubbercakes528]

This guy is fishing. He’s asking for details from Matt while not giving details himself.

[@mattlofgren1497]

Lol theist on Tilt. Lulls me to sleep

[@TakoIbarra]

Dear Omar, it's not Matt who gets mad at you.... it's Everybody!!! You don't know how to have a conversation, you don't understand fallacies, all you do is whine and cry because you are insufferable and people don't have the patience to deal with your childish behavior.

[@GSP-76]

Wow, just wow...how dumb can a person get? Even if there was a beginning to the universe, that still in no way means agency was involved.

[@TheNo1Atheist1]

They said that about the Mets in 1969 and 1986.

[@Romulusmap]

I look at JMIKE and I think... Talk Then

[@RogueBurn]

No, it's not possible, that the Mets would win the World Series. Even if all the other MLB teams got sick, injured or lost to the game the Mets would still figure a way to lose. I'm from NY and lived in Flushing near Shea stadium. The Mets stink! Anyway I love watching these videos but I'm saddened by the aspect that there is so much disillusion and insanity in the World.

[@abc456f]

They won one in '69.

[@nelsrinden510]

Omar is stupefyingly boring . He only wants to say "I gotcha!"

[@tshepokgwele1789]

Jaded caller 😂😂

[@albedo6300]

'Before the Big Bang" is a nonsensical question.

[@ctwentysevenj6531]

Injustices pre Big Bang. What physics was unjust???!!!!!

[@KempoSensei]

What show is JMike from? I have only seen him on Talk Heathen, is he on some other show? Thanks.

[@kenbee1957]

I need answers to these questions too

[@bellezavudd]

He has just started to appear on these shows in the last 4 or 5 months. And more so in the last 2 months.

[@ookeekthelibrarian]

Alan Fitzgerald, I found a video that answers some of your questions, search for : Introducing JMike | Talk Heathen 05.21 Hope it helps.

[@t.i.n.c7173]

It was Epistemic Possibility and Metaphysical. I think

[@jimwade2045]

That's jesus on the right and god on the left

[@Quinn37]

Omar sure nailed his gotcha

[@EekOrbz]

@jmike you seemed to be harsher with this caller than I remember you being in the past. He was extra frustrating, though.

[@geraldammons5520]

I do remember his voice, but I did not need to remember him to realize he has a (HUGE) chip on his shoulder.

[@metsiebestie]

6:15 oh yes, yes it is. LFGM!

[@meloveAi]

...Sooo, is it a punishment or a mercy to ban him from calling?

[@twcnz3570]

Punishment for him, mercy for the rest of us!

[@toto11132]

Before the Big Bang just gravity force

[@robertphillips9017]

Has anyone noticed or commented on the idea that there is no one “enacting” the laws of logic? They were discovered, or perhaps more correctly , elucidated by experimentation.

[@kleenex3000]

The universe AS WE KNOW it had a beginning The universe AS SUCH had not necessarily a beginning. The assertion of "conservation of [the universal measurement of] mass", it suggests that the universe as such is eternal.

[@robertphillips9017]

At 5:46 anything that exists can be demonstrated. It may or may nit be true that if a thing cannot be demonstrated it doesn’t exist.

[@HardKore5250]

A real god does not require faith. A personal god is not a real god.

[@choochtrain]

Matt was explaining Bayesian logic. Should just post the equation and hang up on the dude.

[@khaledelsayed5357]

Omar my buddy you ain’t too good at logic, let alone facts. Learn that stuff ya habiby

[@Byorin]

That dude is a chameleon 😂 He pretended to be civil and reasonable, but around 10 minutes in his mask came off and showed he’s another zealot.

[@scipioafricanus5871]

17:25 LMAO.

[@LittleDays]

Cynics have problems with skeptics

[@Jeff.Paborada]

Omar 🥲

[@cade377]

I think Omar has a crush on Matt.

[@lukedrums8463]

I believe in Jesus now look who matt is sitting next to

[@wadeinn463]

Jesus Fu.king Christ... Ya got anything more orignal? I see these dumb ass comments every time mike is on. Get over his looks and grow up you all.

[@TeethToothman]

❤

[@tshepokgwele1789]

Since when is "I don't know" a fallacy??

[@ari1234a]

I would not call "I don't know" a fallacy but it do not answer the question do you believe that Mets are going to win World Series. There are only 2 options in this question either they win or they do not. The I don't know answer is valid if i ask do you know if Mets is going to win World Series. It`s sorta subtle difference but it`s important to make that distinction.

[@tshepokgwele1789]

@@ari1234a yes, the detail is in the "do you believe" part, because believing has very little to do with knowledge, and more to do with faith. But here's another way to look at it, we could also ask "are the Mets going to win? ", the "I don't know" also applies... So as soon as you plug in some kind of belief/faith into it then "i dont know" becomes irrelevant, because it's not about what you know, it's about what you believe.

[@ari1234a]

@@tshepokgwele1789 Hmm, i got to thinking that if i would ask "Who would you think is going to win the World series this year ? " Then the i do not know is also valid, i think.

[@tshepokgwele1789]

@@ari1234a well, if you don't have any knowledge about the world series, then "I don't know" would be an honest response, but if you are a known fan of the world series and you are expected to know something about it, then "i don't know" would still be valid even though you are expected to know.

[@deeteee1902]

Damn

[@tsdbhg]

Saying that time didn't exist before the big bang is a positive claim. To make such a claim would be fallacious since we currently are unable to investigate beyond it. The intellectually honest answer is that we don't know if time existed before the big bang.

[@AlexPBenton]

Nobody claimed that that was true. They simply explained that in that situation the question becomes meaningless.

[@AlexanderNash]

They say that "it may be the case that time didn't exist before the big bang". The point is that it would have to be demonstrated that time did in fact exist before the big bang before you could talk about what occurred then.

[@kunedoman]

Omar is so stuck on trying argue the point that there has to ba a starting point in the universe, so God? I've still never heard ANY Christian explain what created their god! Oh, other than "the Bible tells me so". Fools.

[@kunedoman]

Does JMike try to look like the European "Jesus" for shock value being an Atheist or does he really dig the look?

[@LinkFanatic]

Hey everyone, I think Xeno made an alt.