FINE I’LL TALK ABOUT DOPING - Tour de France 2024 Finale and Full Race Summary

I'll finish this Tour de France series with a recap of the final stages, a summary of the winners and losers (by team and individual)--who's happy and who has to go back to the drawing board (factoring in team budgets and goals), and I'll also answer the question that I get most often, which therefore shouldn't be ignored: do I think the tour and its winners are clean?
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[@thermitebanana]

I think it's funny how one of the biggest technological advancements in the last 20 years is that giant brain scientists figured out that if someone is expending a billion calories climbing a hill, they can go faster by taking on more calories while they're climbing.

[@Foxtrottangoabc]

@@thermitebanana 😅

[@johnnycab8986]

It's been known since the 00s at least. The whole 'pros are eating more' is a complete fabrication and retcon.

[@fresh0678]

More calories and more peds = climbing faster

[@dustind9242]

When a journalist asked Pogi about Lance's comments he said he doesn't listen to or respond to podcasters...🤣

[@slz203]

Sick burn 😂

[@foxxxx5256]

We owe apologies to Lance after this tour 😳

[@gerrysecure5874]

Killer 😂

[@rafscindaydreamer5616]

Respect to pog instead of commenting on useless topic

[@inikeretakita]

Lance try to steal attention...

[@davidehrlich5140]

The problem with Vingegaard is more than the accident. He didn't have the support personnel that he had last year. Visma was missing Sepp Kuss and Rogilic left. In the high mountains, Jonas would be by himself while Tadje still had two or three guys around him.

[@scninja07]

True. And Wout was nowhere to be found.

[@foxxxx5256]

Completely true it was amazing to see Jonas alone not giving up. True warrior and for me best thing at this Tour

[@smithzk]

@@scninja07also, had a big crash. My conspiracy thinking mind is wondering whether they told Kuss to shut it down at the Dauphine and claimed illness to save a team for the Vuelta, knowing Vingo couldn’t win but that they could get second with their B team.

[@dag1869]

@@smithzk Interesting theory. But, I can't imagine they'd keep Kuss out of the TDF when he's played an important role in past wins.

[@dag1869]

@@scninja07 Hopefully Wout can recover fully. And, hopefully he'll recognize he has to start taking more time off instead of racing year round. Only so much wax in the candle left to burn.

[@Danny-cl2zd]

Lance did not accuse Tadeg of doping !! He said " Don't give "them" a reason to question you." I saw it,that is part of what he said. Lance said many things,but he didnt accuse anyone of doping.

[@thomaskandersen7250]

Thx for pointing this out. I thoughgt the same, as i iv´e seen all the WEDU under this Tour. Armstrong NEVER said anything about doping, but about politics in a race like The Tour De France. Btw, isn´t this guy judging a lot? Left to right? Cheers from Denmark

[@FTA4evr]

My wife and I have watched the Tour on Peacock for the last couple of years. This is the first year that Peacock didn't offer the add free version. I would say the enjoyment level of this epic event has been severly compromised by having to sit through the ridiculous amount of commercial content.

[@svenett]

World…it’s time to push that button 🤮

[@tonycrabtree3416]

look up tiz cycling. free online

[@slz203]

It was truly awful

[@slz203]

@@svenettbut What is The Feed?

[@lylewalker5681]

Basically every streaming service is going to eventually have as much ads as cable did back in the day. Or potentially more if you’re poor and paying for the cheapest plan. Nothing we can do to avoid it, there’s just too much greed. Enjoy the ad free versions while we still have them.

[@hiboostsupra5965]

What I don't understand is how Tadej can be SO much better than everyone else that he crushes them on time, and, he doesn't even look red in the face or tired at the end. Jonas looks like he's been through a war and Tadej looks like he's done a 10 min warmup on the trainer. That was the big tell about Lance during his years IMO - if you don't look like you're suffering, something is off.

[@ExplorinDoranRBrown]

Jonas was soooo heartbroken, Matteo was I’m sure too, and Matteo said some very kind words to Jonas in that moment after the stage. Matteo did an INCREDIBLE job helping Jonas,

[@lvtiguy226]

Thank you for calling out Armstrong on his usual BS. I still find it hard to believe that anyone listens to him anymore.

[@dag1869]

My suspicions about Pogi aren't his times. It's how seemingly unfazed (eyes clear and alert, energetic body language, barely out of breath, hops off the bike with high energy) when finishing such record-shattering times. THAT is what makes me suspicious! Call me jaded after the whole L. Armstrong era, but I'll remain skeptical until history (and science) proves otherwise!

[@cwehden]

Indeed, the top riders wouldn't even know they are doped, more than likely they naively trust a trainer to inject them with 'vitamins' not knowing the 'extras' inside, conspiracy of 1 is highly likely and plausible.

[@endlesspath3044]

Not to mention how effortlessly he seemed to be able to break away during those steep ascents when everyone else had absolutely nothing in the tank, and doing this day in day out without breaking a sweat.

[@stevocanuck]

Isn’t it cause his team is doing all the work for him? He’s just cruising on their wheel?

[@tolstoyed]

if there’s nothing there science and history won’t give you any answers though. you might remain skeptical for ever. i used to be like that, but then i decided i’ll just simply enjoy the sport/competition. if i find out a decade later guys i rooted for doped, i’ll be angry and disappointed then. i think these top dudes got too much to lose though. they all saw lance’s downfall. if it’s someone middle of the pack, fans will forget. if it’s top dudes, they’ll become poster boys for doping like lance

[@fhowland]

I feel The same

[@bryantlikes2529]

Uno-X also got the worst team car driving award when they kept going in that round-about and almost did a head-on with their other team car. :)

[@fanda6122]

i mean at least he didnt hit the brakes...

[@JZTechEngineering]

At least they didn't crash into a forest

[@scottaaron382]

And almost killed a rider.

[@jessicashipp8772]

The “listen dorks I’m not watching every interview” was so funny

[@neil78]

I use the abysmal quality of my Peacock stream to show my kids how TV used to look in the 90s.

[@jonbecker4650]

This year I can only recall a few pixelated moments in the feed. 2023 and 2022? Horrendous.

[@JoeS97756]

Was perfect for me.

[@konradr5163]

Quality was good for me, my issue is that their player doesn't offer a 10 or 15 sec jump back, only a scroll that seems to have two speeds: fast and lightspeed

[@aischwartzable]

I watch ALOT, emphasis on ALOT of cycling, bike racing commentary, and you do circles around them all. You have insight, clarity, humor, you bring it together succinctly, connecting dots in a convincing way. PLEASE, keep doing this for us.

[@worstretirementever]

hey thank you! I'll try

[@StopTheRot]

I know three people in the World Tour, and I’d be sure that they are all clean. I’d put my house on one of them - having lived with him for three years. I also knew a rider that rode the tour in 2001, 2003 and 2004. He WAS clean, regardless of what Lance thinks.

[@rockytalkndawoods3057]

Tbf, just because a few honorable mates are clean doesn't mean the lot are. Chapeau to your friends!! 💛💚🌲💚💛

[@rof8200]

Cadel Evans? I hope he was clean

[@veganpotterthevegan]

@@StopTheRot people have been married to dopers without knowing. You have no idea if someone is doping or not. Only they know

[@johndavidalexander6646]

7w/kg for 40 minutes, deep into a 3 week tour, at the end of a long stage that started with a cat1 out of the gate, and three more cat1s before the final record breaking climb. Oh and Visma rode all the climbs hard in an effort to fatigue Pogacar. Wasn't Lance's best w/kg 6.7 for 20 minutes? What would it have been if he wasn't doping? I struggle to think that training, nutrition and minor groupset efficiencies can make such a big difference. I love the tour, and want to believe it's clean, but I'm not yet convinced.

[@joowsty]

i think your last sentence is a bit weird, cuz how can for example Pogacar (but also the other top GC riders ofcourse) convince you, do they have to start riding slower to convince you or have a camera on their face 24/7 for the whole yyear? in other words i think for someone like Pogacar or Vingegaard its impossible to convice the real doubters. i myself think it could be they are doping but i also keep the possibility in mind that it could be clean. im not a scientist so for me its hard to know for sure if the better number cyclist show these days compared to Armstrongs era could also be achieved with nutrition (including ketones), better training, better body shape etc. i also think that some ppl overestimate what EPO can do in terms of improvement. some ppl think it would make any rider ride like 50% better, while in reality its probably more like 5%.

[@johndavidalexander6646]

@joowsty my last sentence was meant to say what you said. By I'm not convinced, I mean that I can't decide. By "I want to believe", I mean that I'm still hopeful that there are clean GC contenders. I don't know that the riders could ever fully convince me that they're all clean. A clean race would always be vulnerable to a single rider who is willing to dope. And there are always scientists out there attempting to find the next PED that either isn't tested for or isn't yet recognised as a PED. It's a race between the doctors that help the cheaters and the testers. It's good to question and debate such things.

[@johndavidalexander6646]

@@joowsty kzbin.info/www/bejne/aKDTZot9bLF6oassi=JMhGsFk9xNC6w2rD

[@baTonkaTruck]

Pog’s numbers DWARF all the FLAGRANT dopers that have come before him. He’s the latest doper. Plenty of superfans in denial but he’s glowing.

[@joowsty]

@@johndavidalexander6646 ah yes well i do agree fully with what you said in response to me, i think i took the convincing part the wrong way, but you are right that there very well could be ppl who abuse PEDs. specially PEDs that arent considered PEDs yet. i think that cyclist using PEDs that are not on the list yet (because of lack of knowledge) is the most probable. a few years ago some kind of hart medicin was used by speed skater and tennis players (sharapova), most of them from Russia. i think that was also a PED that wasnt on the list at first.

[@reese8097]

Whats even crazier than Pogs numbers are Vins numbers basically matching them despite supposedly being seriously injured.

[@CoopMauKona]

Yes and Jonas is noticeably lighter this year while Pogi is heavier. Just compare the podium pictures from 2023 and 2024. Yet Jonas was basically keeping up.

[@carlosgaspar8447]

them polka dot jersey numbers i find extraordinary. not like he had that much help getting into breaks.

[@kkryspin]

@@CoopMauKonalighter does not mean better climber. There is other things to consider.

[@TheWorldisaLIE2]

Jonas likely lost muscle and didn't have the time to get back to 100%

[@kkryspin]

@@CoopMauKona They are both lighter this year compared to 2023. According to “sources” from Johan Bruyneel Pog is 3 pounds lighter this year.

[@williamroberts6937]

When Lance Armstrong purports to be the true voice of reason run for the doors...

[@martinsundland7614]

Who even listens to Armstrong any more? What an unsavoury character.

[@joerenner8334]

​@martinsundland7614 I watch The Move every single day during the tour. It's a great production. I like the team.

[@Chris-xv2gm]

​@@martinsundland7614silly little boy. What a to55er.

[@Chris-xv2gm]

​@@joerenner8334Better than about anything else out there.

[@Chris-xv2gm]

Why is that then bender man?

[@les-chouans]

look man, I love Pogi but he doesn't even look tired after the stage even when EVERYBODY looks like they are almost dead including Remco and Jonas. It looked super wierd this year.

[@Tuffjobs]

Exactly 👍

[@howlinhauler]

aero sleeves, 0 body fat and winners adrenaline is what it looked like from my view.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

@howlinhauler did you see a tailwind that only hit Pogi's back too?

[@howlinhauler]

@@veganpotterthevegan no. just a champ in his own backyard with a chip on his shoulder.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

@@howlinhauler lots of world tour riders live in the same town he lives. You're simply refusing to live in reality

[@ljacobs357]

We don't know, but the UAE team was far superior to Visma, which allowed Pogi to rest more.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

@@ljacobs357 I don't think they really helped him that much this year. Outside of fetching bottles, Pogi was so strong that he seemed like he could have ridden everyone off his wheel in every climb without issue.

[@joshuagarner5772]

You can see it in his numbers on days he was not going for the win. His calories burned were lower than almost any rider. He was expert at conserving on stages to be fresh on others.

[@GiantsBeauceronsRugby]

@@veganpotterthevegandid you not see how Yates and Almeida put massive shifts in for Pogi especially in the last week and Pollit take the brunt of the early work on most of the climbs. Last year Pogi had to fight a much stronger Visma team on his own, this year he had a great team around him and look what happened. His team definitely helped him, he barely had to do anything going into the final climbs

[@morapelimokokomali7907]

They worked so hard for him this year and I don't understand why people say the team didn't? All a guy as strong as Pog needs is to be pulled for about 65% of the race and then he's unstoppable. Unlike the past two tours when Visma isolated him, this time he could sit behind Pollit, Yates and Almeida while they took turns giving him a pull. He was rarely alone except when he attacked

[@AB-fh9zh]

@@GiantsBeauceronsRugby yeah his team was phenomenal. Visma also did an amazing job, with a bunch of their riders really stepping up, but they could not wear down UAE like they did previously.

[@jasonreynolds1715]

I haven’t the heart to tell him that his house has been burgled.

[@snoopyboobs]

haha!!

[@maddexq9107]

Phil Gaimon - you crack me up “FDJ pulling their hair out in Netflix doc”

[@jamestalkscycling]

So do you think doping science may have advanced as well as all the other advancements in cycling? What is the highest position do you see as clean in the Pog/ Vin years?

[@scninja07]

Is Remco doping?

[@jamestalkscycling]

@@scninja07 I think so, he smashed previous records too. Just Pogi smashed it by more.

[@Foxtrottangoabc]

20th 😅

[@sophieice]

people also seem to forget that the youth scene is instrumental to overall performance. as the sport grows the talent pool grows, leads to a pretty large performance increase in a previously relatively niche sport

[@keirfarnum6811]

That’s something I thought about years ago when I raced XC. There are always people out there who are better but just have never gotten on a bike. Pogi is one of those people who just happened to be a superior athlete who happened to get into it. Cycling has always been limited by having a relatively small pool of people involved compared to some sports.

[@ReVoltaire]

Picture a few million more potential Biniam Girmays getting an actual equal opportunity in cycling. That's when it will morph into a truly global sport. Professional cycling is about the place marathon running was at the 1960 Rome Olympics.

[@kptrzk9398]

​@@ReVoltairenaive and disrespectful

[@hernanhernandez3861]

Dream season for Matteo still.

[@toadlguy]

One additional point to consider with the dominance of Tadej, is that the final stages of this race were all done on roads that he trains on all the time. Matteo also lives and trains in the area and his last 3 stages of the race were awesome. He got 4th in the Polka Dot jersey despite being completely out of it for the whole tour. Tadej was in great shape, had the best team, ended the race in his backyard and his toughest competition was in a really bad crash earlier this year. Even Remco was recovering from a crash. I think we are going to see a lot of very competitive racing for the next while (even if Pog usually wins 😁)

[@tonycrabtree3416]

It’s Jonas that’s the most sus. Goes from almost dying to finishing 2nd in the same year.

[@Mike-zx1kx]

@@tonycrabtree3416 Yes and have not had chance to ride any of this years stages as preparation at all while the Mid Sunday stage where Pogi took 30 seconds on the downhill according to Pogi himself were a downhill he had ridden 100´s of times after he had been in training camp at that very spot. Just as the last TT were on roads that were very familiar for him. I am SO impressed by both a crippled Visma LAB team and the incredible effort of Jonas considering his bad accident and ability to prepare. If I had had a punctured lung, a broken collarbone, several broken ribs, an operation and an internal infection and 12 days in hospital 100 days ago I can hardly imagine even being able to function in a normal job yet.

[@CoopMauKona]

@@tonycrabtree3416 Yes and he's alot lighter this year too while Pogi is bigger.

[@veganpotterthevegan]

@toadlguy that really means little. Plenty of world tour pros live in Pogi's town and everyone goes there to train

[@Mike-zx1kx]

@@veganpotterthevegan It means A LOT that you know what are behind the curve you cannot see the end of, especially on descents! Maybe some riders, at least Pogi, have ridden them often and KNOWS them but Jonas have not had ability to train on one single stage of this years TdF!

[@galenkehler]

I started getting into watching road cycling in about 2000, so i ended up a real cynic, so my big takeaway is how awesome it was for Biniam 🎉🎉🎉

[@alicenchainrings1326]

I’ve never looked at a Cube bike and thought it looked beautiful until today. That emerald green TT bike is gorgeous!

[@alandowney5851]

Despite all the advances in shoes and track technology, Flo Jo and Marita Koch’s records from the 80’s have not been approached. So when Pantani’s times are obliterated you have to question it. When you see class riders passed like they are stopped you have to question it.

[@rof8200]

Aero effects on the bike saves energy for most of the race because the rider is below his lactate threshold. So he can clear lactate up to 5.5 watts per kg whilst riding on the flats and up the hills. He is only using his glycogen rapidly in the last 30 minutes to one hour of the climbs

[@abfutrell]

I'm glad you brought up Peacock. The Tour should be an auto-favorited series that plays the next stage you when start the application.

[@abellopez8820]

Thank you Phil for calling B.S. on that Texas guy and his crew. I think they where just sour grapes about something, and we can speculate what it might be, but it would take too long to come to a conclusion.

[@danreynolds1142]

Agree with team win concept. 👍

[@masoodrehman118]

As a Canadian I REALLY want to cheer for Derek Gee, but the team he rides for....nah. I really like Tadej too, but the team he rides for...nah. I get sportswashing is just a thing now, but I don't have to like it lmao

[@rickobryan]

UAE is the major sponsor of weapons and money for the genocide currently taking place in Darfur. How could a talented cyclist like Pogacar ride for these murderers.....he can ride for any team he wants!?

[@iFanchi]

The thing is their records were not broken gradually during these 25 years, but in one shot. It is not like they beat it by 1 minute and then nexts year another minute. You tell me that the training and equipment has improved so much in one year. That's why people are questioning.

[@ahwinds9256]

Exactly!

[@scninja07]

Lots of riders beat the climbing records this year. Ketones perhaps?

[@anonymous-rj6ok]

Oh I'm not questioning. These top riders are doped af. It's not a question anymore.

[@iFanchi]

@@scninja07 maybe, not saying they are using something illegal yet, but they are using something that maybe is not yet prohibited.

[@hipster-somme977]

It’s not that training and equipment are advancing at a rapid rate it’s naivety and stupidity that seem to be advancing rapidly year on year.

[@nicolewww3]

In every sport, there’s always a cycle of unbelievable stars who defy what people believed was ever possible. I can’t understand the obsession of cycling fans speculating with zero real evidence. What’s the point in watching cycling if you’re only ever going to believe the best must be doping? Enjoy living through the best era of cycling rather than ruining it for yourself and others by being an armchair expert. If one day it comes out that doping’s involved, be disappointed then

[@dag1869]

In part, because pro cycling has been corrupted by doping from its earliest era. I think it's perfectly fine to enjoy cycling AND also be skeptical of super-human performances when one rider makes winning look far too easy every time they compete. Pogi simply makes it look far too easy and that alone will make people suspicious. In the end, only science and history will prove/disprove the skeptics. I'm okay being proven wrong; I welcome it as long as it's based on hard cold facts.

[@shawnington]

Because there has never once in the history of cycling, been a superstar mutant that wasn't popped for doping. But now we are expected to believe that there are 3 of them all at the same time? All clean? All smashing records set by people who weren't? There is zero problem with people being stand out athletes that are way ahead of their peers. It becomes an issue when they are putting out power numbers that have previously only been seen from people with 60% hematocrit. It also becomes an issue, when the athletes dramatically increase their performance, in the span of a year while also being in horrific accidents. ( calling out JV, and Remco also )

[@mercb3ast]

Well, the elite athletes in virtually all sports where there is a major financial incentive are doping. People dope to win in amateur sports, and those people often go on to participate at higher levels. This is sort of an open secret, that is hidden behind this veneer of plausible deniability. Does it bother me to know that guys in the NFL/NBA/NHL/MLB are juiced to the tits? Not really. First, nobody actually cares about baseball anymore anyways ;) The other 3 sports? Don't care. I also understand WHY we have to pretend people are clean, and why we can't just let it be the wild west out there. Doping is fundamentally unhealthy. We don't want to encourage kids to start doing this shit at 15. Enough kids are ALREADY doing it at 15. Hell, I knew kids doing steroids at 15 when I played football in highschool in the 90s.

[@b00ndocker]

Lol, "listen, dorks!"

[@wertacus]

Got me good 😂

[@vaxxxx]

lost me there... arrogance boiling out of his ears....

[@Real28]

​@@vaxxxx LMFAOOOOO what are your credentials??

[@vaxxxx]

@@Real28 non.. whatsoever... but for that ammount of insolence i would expect at least one participation in a grand tour. At the moment he has the same as me - a slightly overweight couchpotato. Ohh well.. maybe he had "other things to do" during his illustrious Cannondale days...

[@iFanchi]

@@vaxxxxit's the dorks always criticizing and complaining, he said it in a funny way to make his point. You complaining about it, must be one of the dorks he is talking about.

[@ytyehyeh]

I think it's great that Phil has friends in the pro ranks whom he believes in so much that he'd cut off a hand if they turned out to be dirty. But intending no slight on Phil and his friends, we can do without the hyperbole. I remember a team principal boldly declaring that he trusted his team so much that if any of his riders turned out to be dirty, he'd shut the whole thing down. Someone turned out to be dirty, and...nothing. The team continued operating, and even had great success this July, I assume cleanly unless shown otherwise.

[@Foxtrottangoabc]

Yes there us a disconnect between riders and teams when riders fail dope tests. Team uae and jumbo have had riders fail tests in recent years . And some existing riders have officially failed drug tests

[@LeeBoris974]

Much better sound than your past videos! Really enjoyed these summaries, thank you.

[@Shelleysnail]

Thanks for mentioning Derek Gee. I was so happy that he got top 10.

[@ryanphelan6861]

Lance bullied men and women while riding now trying to bully people on his podcast and still putting words in georges mouth who still doesn't speak of fir himself. Absolutely zero change guy has always been toxic transition from cheering for greg to watching lance not fun. He resented contador because his "numbers" were better sees another young guy more talented and again narcissist strikes. Hes the worst man

[@tonycrabtree3416]

Remember when everyone got mad at Jose Canseco in the 90s? Don’t make that mistake, otherwise you replace the person you hate as “the worst”.

[@Mike-zx1kx]

I heard a rumour he are going to Eritrea to "work with them". I REALLY hope that are not true because then all Eritreans that might come into the game in coming years will be met with a deep suspicion from the get go.

[@lbride3738]

Lance did save T France; clean or unclean, without Lance many of us, particularly the Americans, won't be watching the tour, and many of us won't be buying expensive road bikes. I studied "pre-Med," and learned that body can self-adjust by doping it once a while to increase, for example, the oxygen density. You don't have to dope it regularly! Supplement it with the best diet and exercise, you could have a better cycling body.

[@Mike-zx1kx]

@@lbride3738 Cycling body!? Did they teach you about living a long healthy life and die of old age. Americans would learn a lot more about cycling and healthy living if they transformed their infrastructure to accommodate more than cars. You know, cause and consequence. Maybe basic philosophy should be part of pre med as well in USA? USA SUBSIDISED fossil fuels with minimum 790 billion Dollars last year in a time where we urgently need to transition to an emission free energy production and usage. If you build them (bicycle lanes) they will come! If you do not skew the market in favour of fossil fuels maybe the cheaper emission free solutions will as well? How many died in USA last year as result of breathing polluted air? How many from deadly weather? Bad food? Injecting cows and pigs with antibiotics and artificial growth hormone etc etc etc? A lot to focus on for anyone in pre med if you want to promote healthy life´s. Further artificial chemicals maybe should not be top of list at this point in US history!?

[@andrewmckenzie3661]

​@lbride3738 I think Lance did more damage to the tour than good, really. He played a major part in increasing the amount of cyclist of that era cheating. And because of that epo era and Armstrong us fans are now skeptical of any successful riders. The sport was, is and always will be better off without him in my opinion

[@TimLPINE]

Phil, I really really appreciate you. You know your stuff and and your sense of humor matches mine. I the only other former pro I watch is Horner and that's because we've met a couple of times and he's been very kind to my family. Thanks for the time you put in on your YT channel and keep up the great work. Yours is the kind of analysis the sport desperately needs :)

[@chrisridesbicycles]

The question after this year is: Who wants to ride dangerous Belgian mid-week races any more next year and which mid-tier team wants to bring their A-squad to the tour when UAE only leaves breadcrumbs to be picked up.

[@dandawson8128]

Thank you for going there, and bringing up Lance and his comments. Thanks for speaking the truth. Yeah, Lance would know. Thanks for keeping it real!

[@recrevs963]

Thanks for doing the reviews. Really enjoyed your perspective!

[@biscaynediver]

Nice call-out of Lance. His dissing of Tadej is 100% jealousy. Just like it was with Lemond. He is so arrogant he just couldn't believe Lemond was just naturally superior to him. Same thing with Tadej. There are levels. Clean for clean, Lemond would have wiped the floor with Lance. And if Lemond had doped at exactly Lance's level, he would have wiped the floor with him. Superior physical specimen. Ditto Tadej.

[@keirfarnum6811]

LeMond’s VO2 max is HUGE compared to Lance.

[@Cellestino-q4x]

Some clarity required here. You cannot say with any degree of certainty that a Lemond following the same doping by programme as Armstrong would have been a superior athlete. That isn’t how doping works. Some people are much more receptive to doping than others.

[@GoofballVidProductions]

@@keirfarnum6811 and Vingegaards is even better. Lemond, at the time, was the second highest tested athlete in the world, with a VO2 max of 92, I believe. Norweigan cross country skier, and olympic gold medalist Bjorn Daehli, tested in at 96. Jonas Vingegaard was tested as a junior, and clocked an insane VO2 max of 97. I would like to see what Pogy’s VO2 max is. If it’s below 90, it’s a red flag.

[@GoofballVidProductions]

@@Cellestino-q4x exactly. Typically the more naturally gifted riders, had less to gain from doping than riders with obvious physical shortcomings. Such as a low red blood cell count.

[@frankmcgowan9457]

I'm sorry but my understanding was that Armstrong's extremely high VO2 max was what called him to WADA's attention in the first place. They never actually caught him at it. Maybe - just maybe, they need to have a closer look at the current riders.

[@tine819]

I don't think Pogacar is doped! Jonas (Tadej's worst competitor) had crashed badly in April. Less than 3 months before TdF! 12 days in the hospital! A broken collarbone, 3 broken ribs, and a collapsed lung! Coming second to Tadej I would say is a miracle! I bent several ribs during a ski crash in the Alps and was in pain for over 6 months! So put in that light, Pogacar's (superior) victory is probably not so strange!

[@scninja07]

Plus Visma was weak, with no Sepp, Primoz on Bora and Wout underperforming.

[@neilparry14]

Look at VIN’s numbers up the Plateu de beille. You can’t use his accident as an indicator of why Pog was ahead reform he wasn’t doped.

[@ticondy]

I totally feel you about the peacock algorithm. I was thinking the same thing

[@arthurmiller4650]

It's like they're praying you'll see something else you want to watch

[@LewLew18]

How does a rider make a whole bunch of other riders (who are all in the top 1% of the top 1% in the world) make them look like amateurs? Can there naturally be such a difference in performance? Seems implausible…

[@oldershikari828]

Team strength counts for a lot..

[@maxrevell3830]

I don't think it?s the fact that these guys are beating the old doping records that is raising eyebrows; it's the fact that they're doing it on the final stages of a grand tour (after doing the exact same thing at the Giro); the only "bad day" Pogacar had was losing one sprint. I really hope he is clean, but the performances do make you wonder

[@rof8200]

Nutrition, heat management and inflammation management is much more advanced nowadays

[@jakubtrzcinski1014]

considering the clickbait title I thought you would say something about the w/kg estimations when you only talked about the climbing times... seems like a easy way out of the discussion

[@adventuresona700dollarhard5]

He doesn't want to explain his own w/kg's 😂

[@channul4887]

@@adventuresona700dollarhard5 w/kg's are meaningless, it's all about them integrated cables and hookless tubeless tyres.

[@adventuresona700dollarhard5]

@@channul4887no caps on the tires to save weight.

[@bsidhom]

Refreshing to hear your realistic and balanced comments re: doping. The surprise winner for me was Carapaz. I saw polka dots going to the GC guys, so props to him for his strategic racing in the Alps. I happen to disagree with you about Vingegaard winning had the crash not happened. Pogi is young and still has a few more years of peak power fitness. Moreover, he’s the most consistent rider in UCI right now and has been winning a wide and varied set of races for years. I take that consistency as a much stronger signal of his fitness. (I’m not sure what will happen when his peak power starts dwindling, but I expect him to rage quit once he’s not able to pull those explosive sprints at the end of road races; I don’t see him racing into his late thirties.) In any case, it will be more interesting when Jonas is back in peak form.

[@iamthedalilama]

I’m not convinced by Tadej. He looks as fresh as fuck whenever he finishes. Johnas looks like he’s just finished a grand tour stage.

[@JeremyLawrence-imajez]

And yet it was the opposite last year when it was Tadej returning from a crash injury.

[@MikeBromberg-y9g]

Aside from not giving a shit about value for sponsors, I agree with you that team oriented wins/standings could make cycling a lot more interesting to watch and cheer for. Great example, that even LeBron doesn’t get specific mention, and he’s on the far opposite end of the likability spectrum of the current TDF darlings.

[@CoopMauKona]

On the podium the glaring thing is Pogacar is bigger than last year and Jonas is lighter. The internet lists both at 5'9", but Pogacar is definitely taller. So if Pogi is 3-4 kg heavier and Jonas 3-4kg lighter, then w/kg guesstimations would be way off and Jonas who said this is his best performance yet, would be more suspect.

[@Jabroni2U]

There is nothing worse than making up excuses for losing. Well, I crashed yesterday and my team was not as strong as years past. many times during the tour jonas said he was in his best shape ever. Tadej put himself at risk of crashing in the Giro, of overtraining and who knows what else. Tadej has the courage to forego the “Tour Only” philosophy and thus he made history. The two tours that jonas won he had a better team than Tadej and Tadej was ill or injured himself. I never heard any sour grapes from Tadej. jonas just man up and say the best man won, a man with the courage you don’t have to ride two Grand tours.

[@binghamhumber]

Great stuff as always Phil. As a Canadian I appreciate the shout-outs to Derek Gee.

[@duncanh3466]

Lance didn't accuse Pog of dopeing he just said that he thought it was in Pogs interest to not be so dominant, and maybe not win every stage. As this would bring more accusations

[@CodyKing]

He let Jonas get one.

[@howlinhauler]

if every stage is a TTT, sure give it to the team, but the first man across the line is your billboard and winner. as always, a fun take on the TDF. cheers

[@stevenmeyer9674]

To be fair Armstrong didn't accuse Pogacar of doping. All he said was to not give people a reason to make those accusations.

[@matttilley8620]

Armstrong has been silent until now on doping ever since creating his Move thing. He threw the 20 year-old UAE rider under the bus earlier this year by saying he is on the gear, and now he's stepping up his game by implicating Pogacar. There were no hints there. He told the story when Ferrari contacted him post-stage to say he was making it look way too obvious and compared it to what pogi is doing. Armstrong was definitely accusing Pogi of doping, so should anyone in their right mind. Despite what Mr. Clean says, there is no way in hell that Pogi is clean. Not a chance.

[@ryanphelan6861]

@@stevenmeyer9674 lance has never been objective or trustworthy. He said and intended a lot more it was not passing comment. Very talented competitive triathlete at 16 but he's burned everyone. He just had Jorgensen on days prior that's who tadej "took stage" from he's "stars and stripes" some sponsor oriented xenophobic but true to form financially motivated comments. Says "I don't know what he's doing" good don't stain him lance steer clear he's already smeered remco it's juvenile and he can't resist. " don't give them reason to question you"...tadej doesn't ride/live with guilty conscience it's clear and that's always been huge sign of doping edgy, defensive, even aggressive responses. Tadej smiles is friendly doesn't give complicated answers or has pre prepared answers man never has. Lance never loves Jonas he rides se as lance pragmatic only see tour in calendar,only thinks gc , it checks every box lance has never been subtle about anything like Phil said last guy to listen to for any reason be it dodgy intentions or outright lies. Just about anyone in my age bracket has same reflex to him it's tough stuff. Alex gibney did great documentary I thought "Armstrong lie" and he was staunch supporters and incredible film director Enron, stuxnet military virus, outstanding stuff. George has always been like Switzerland very agreeable tries to be neutral,and Johan is fascinating and knowledgeable from that complicated generation before lance. Don't ever let anyone tell you who to like but id just caution you to form your opinion before trusting his LA specifically.

[@AB-fh9zh]

I'd just like to repeat the excellent advice Phil just gave: Never, ever listen to Lance.

[@KemalArdilGulez]

@@matttilley8620 Pogi and Vingo are most definitely clean. Why would anyone think that those guys are not clean? I mean, those people shower like 10 times a week.

[@eddie79it1]

well Armstrong can't accuse anyone about Doping.

[@Matthew-ez4ze]

Carapaz was amazing in the hills, and Jonas Abrahamsen was as true revealation. He will be a force to be reckoned with when Uno X decides what to with him. A big money team will possibly grab Abrahamsen after those crazy leadouts - what a beast! Regarding Peacock, I am so glad you let them have it. They have ZERO idea that we all subscribed for one month to only watch the TdF, but they make you scroll to "sports" then to the "TdF" icon, then hope that the most recent stage is even ready for broadcast here in California - then sit through commercials!

[@ercmadden]

Here’s an idea. Have the teams with a rider in the top 5 do a team time trial with all the other riders getting credit for finishing still

[@Foxtrottangoabc]

Pogi has a new trainer this year , hes ditched San Milan zone 2 and his new trainer is training him hard with interval training explaining his new level of fitness😅

[@hagus42]

Oh that’s interesting to learn!

[@kptrzk9398]

Why didn't Jonas think of that!?

[@Foxtrottangoabc]

@kptrzk9398 apparently Pogi new trainer used to work for jonas a couple or so years ago 😅

[@boetjedengel6281]

He was never doing only zone 2. San Millan never said to only do zone 2. He was doing and is still doing zone 2 and intervals. Having said that, it is clear that the new trainer helped him go to a higher level.

[@Foxtrottangoabc]

@boetjedengel6281 I only say that as the Mou leaker who discussed Pogacars training. Was subtly discrediting pogis zone 2 training and his old training methods , and implying Pogi is now fitter as he has reduced some zone 2 and now spends more time allocated to longer interval sessions such as 18min blocks x 3 , and working on his fast twitch muscles

[@Mr4headCS]

Lance was not talking about doping per se. He was talking about Pogi staying low key, because he will be a target for doping speculation. And look at the press just a few days later. Well French press for whatever that’s worth. But if you hate a guy, I guess you aren’t able to get over yourself.

[@roberth7691]

I read it the same way you did. If Pogacar were a Frenchman, it may have been a different story in the press there.

[@johnkarrasch7758]

You rock Phil. Thx for pointing out that sports progress over time! Well done. 👍

[@cliffspencer]

Love your comment about crediting the team, totally agree!

[@burnsideisback]

Wkg don't progress with equipment and variables. 7wkg for 40 mins is simply, no.

[@richardswatman4011]

Riders are lighter than ever which pushes wkg up- lance was a heavy rider

[@Jan-se1nd]

@@richardswatman4011 Pantani wasn't, though.

[@rg807]

The carb intake today is 2x what it was just 4 years ago, and 4x what it was 10 years ago. Huge, huge difference.

[@joshuagarner5772]

Pog is 4kg lighter than previous years, and also didn’t do most of the classics in order to focus training on 30-40 min watt/kg efforts rather than 3-10 min efforts. I think they change in focus plus losing weight way back in January with this goal in mind is reasonable. His absolute watts didn’t have to rise that much, small margins with a focus on grand tours is totally reasonable.

[@burnsideisback]

@@rg807 haha.

[@charles.andrelagoueyte4007]

We have been watching this kid, Pogačar, since he was a teenager. He was winning or competing for podiums since that time. He has shown to being the complete package in stage and one day races as well. At the time, he actually reminded me of another teenager extraordinary: a certain Greg Lemond. Had Lemond not been in that unfortunate hunting accident, who knows were would he be in the annals of cycling's history, but, for my part, I would never have questioned his prowess, nor do I presently question that of Pogačar.

[@aischwartzable]

Thank you, Phil!!

[@markgrenier6787]

Phil you’re exactly right it’s a lot like my half Iron Man or my Iron Man. It’s not how fast you go it’s how slow you lose speed and at the end of three weeks when everyone is fatigued that’s when the true athlete will shine. Every Iron Man is won by the athlete, who is strongest in the last 10k of the run.

[@antoniocasablancasvilanova2207]

Your comment about mention the team as winner not only the individual rider; right on!!!

[@sunshinecycling]

I am sure there is never a year where every single person is doping, but I also believe there has never been a "clean" Tour. There have been drugs and alcohol used since the very first Tour. But during the 90s hay day, many whistleblowers have said that is was rampant...giving numbers in the 80% range and saying there was no way to get results during those years without it. So let's not pretend that someone like a Lance saying everyone did it counts. Many others have come forward saying similar things.

[@dominicbritt]

Lance didn't accuse Pogacar of doping. What he said was, don't give the knockers as excuse the start questioning him.... he was very clear he wasn't accusing him - the point he made was he was opening to door to people to question him by keep attacking when miles ahead rather than just defending his lead...

[@davidmurphy9151]

He was implying that he and Pog are the same - but hes not the same.

[@mikehall6608]

Phil Gaimon, exactly the same number of TDF victories as Lance Armstrong, but way more integrity 👌

[@simonstucki]

So why exactly is 7W/kg for 40min impossible? The riders eat so so much more and training has improved so much, how come they aren't even stronger? edot: this is a response to the comments not the video!

[@bossthefluff]

96% spot on. That’s one impressive take. I loved the weighted team happiness index.

[@KemalArdilGulez]

I have absolutely no idea why there are doping questions. I mean, do some people really think that there is a natural way to add one watt per kg on top of 6 in 3 years?

[@englishteacherdon]

Le Tour is one big investigative story away from becoming irrelevant again like in 1998. I am pretty sure Phil does not normally break his own Strava records by 4 minutes like we saw for the last 3 weeks.

[@scninja07]

Is Tadej doping for every race? He’s dominated the calendar this year. This isn’t like Lance preparing his program for only the Tour.

[@englishteacherdon]

@@scninja07 Lance could only dream of a program this effective.

[@RobertJWaid]

Solo Strava records are very different from group, race, Strava records with support.

[@derekjanson2063]

Phil, thanks for the great wrap up!!

[@perry-ad]

If I got to ride Pantani's bike anywhere, I would not say, "Ewww." I would say, "holy F! I'm on Marco Pantani's bike!" But yes, equipment and training are so different. Fingers crossed...

[@davepearson8774]

We are on the same page on your Peacock complaints. It's the only think i'm watching on your service. why can't you figure out i only want to see the cycling events?

[@HoldenAdventures]

Thanks for the great insights as always!! As a relatively recent cycling fan, I couldn’t agree more with the team vs individual pivot! I would love to hear more from your experience on how the team is honored at the end of the race. Do they all get cycling equivalent to “Super Bowl rings?”

[@lillew19]

I really thought I was the only one complaining about the Peacock algorithm like come on guys this is the standard at this point!

[@alecdiebel167]

For people’s pogo climbing calculations. Derek Gee did 412 watts up isola 2000 at 75 kg and lost 3 min in the last 11 km to pogi. That’s roughly 5.5 wpk. And Derek wasn’t in the wheels like pogi behind vinegars until 5 to go. The reality is pogacar was probably closer to 6.2-6.3 which is still outrageous but not the 6.89 people are saying

[@jimr4084]

When Phil Ligget retires (and he should, Bob had to cover many of his errors this year) I prefer Anthony McCrossan who seems unbiased and is a great announcer.

[@FTA4evr]

Ant's good, but Rob Hatch could do a good job too.

[@gregmorrison7320]

We get Anthony McCrossan (with Nicolas Roache) for most tours and one day races here in NZ, haven't heard Phil Ligget for years but when I did he seemed to be making a lot of errors even back then.

[@SenWerk]

Why on Earth would Peacock give Lance the Sociopath a platform? Its sickening seeing him trying to rehabilitate his image. He needs to slink back under his rock and stay there.

[@StyleLessMicks]

He has his own fairly successful podcast, it’s called “the Move” and he is not particularly under a rock

[@smithzk]

Excellent overall commentary but the hot take at the end had me smashing that like button. 1000% love the team idea. I wonder if it could start happening on a small scale at least.

[@speciesofspaces]

Definitely needs more discussion whether on the EPO-gene therapy or cellular therapy aspects. I seriously doubt the advantages here by Pogacar and some others which if I had to guess would include some kind of therapy. But as there is so little investigative reporting these days the sport is reliant almost entirely on "testing protocols," which at this point are probably just satisfactory at best. If doping does come to the foreground again then I think the big difference is how likable most of the younger riders are compared to all the dicks in the EPO generation. I suspect that alone will change how the story develops and what sentiments the fans might have about it all. Time will tell, I guess. But nice guys still do shady things.

[@the_rzh]

Exactly this. Too many outsiders are thinking EPO, HGH, and other injectables. We know that a couple of seasons of old-school doping could bestow career-long benefits. Today's anomalous results could be from gene/cellular therapies applied as teenagers. Odds of detection are low unless someone has a falling out with their doctor or experiences long-term negative health effects.

[@rjzimmerman]

Love the remark at the end about team vs. individual because this year we saw some pretty strong evidence to that effect, namely, Tadej is amazing, and Vingegaard came in with an injury, but let's face it, Visma was unable to support Vingegaard as they have done in previous years (Sepp Kuss + Wout van Aert) and UAE was over-powering for Tadej! I barely know what I'm talking about and folks should tell me so, but until I hear otherwise, teams mattered plenty this year and media and race organizers barely care about which team wins or how the individual got to the front!

[@MrEeyon]

“Listen dorks…” and this is why I follow you!

[@Scott64T]

So on point with the Peacock algorithm....lol. I just got an account (well, glommed onto my daughter's) so I could watch the tour. That is the ONLY thing I've ever watched on Peacock. And, still, daily, it's not even in my suggested watch list.

[@aghorn]

Peacock was also slow about putting up the replay of the day's race. I had things to do while the race was on. Then, when I was able to watch the day's race 2-3 hours after it had ended, the replay was still not available! Only the highlights were by that time. How hard can it be to make the replay available fairly quickly?

[@ahwinds9256]

Thank you for sharing bro! Appreciate you. 🫡

[@JohnBaxter-j2x]

Nice vid, with great takes throughout. I think Jonas still would have lost because he didn't have Kuss -- whose tempo is fast enough to *potentially* keep Tadej from attacking.

[@Foxtrottangoabc]

I dont see the point of time trial bikes . No one really uses those in the real world, so i think time trials should just use the standard road bikes and helmets

[@HunderbarDachs]

Peacock was doing the same thing to me, and it's so annoying. If I saw the beginning of a stage live, it would NEVER give me the remainder of that stage as an option. I always have to manually enter the stage number

[@davidmulligan42]

Great analysis, Phil! Thanks for doing these - I like getting your viewpoint on what's going on. And to your last comment, I rode 72 miles this morning :)

[@SatrnOne]

What would Lance know about keeping a low profile? Also, how does the yellow jersey rider go about not gaining attention?

[@jascollinscork]

Well Said Phil, very valid points AND 🤜🏻💥 Lance 😂

[@neilparry14]

On a climb like the plateau de Beille, the only thing that matters is power to weight. Aero almost no gain, elec shifting - nothing, disk brakes - nothing. The improvement in tech is a red herring. The weight of the bikes is limited by the UCI, so they’ve not changed. So the only possible improvements would be rider weight getting lower and/or rider power output increasing. Pot doesn’t look much lighter than Lance to me, so that leaves power. So the question is how has Pog increased his power output to a point where it’s significantly higher than someone who was on every PED available? I think there’s only one conclusion you can come to.

[@Real28]

I just got into cycling last year and studied up the history pretty hard. The first things that came to mind with eveyone freaking out over Tadejs climbs were what you mentioned: 25 years of progression in equipment, tactics and conditioning. Tadej got such insane preferential treatment by his team on those stages that he was always fresh for the hardest parts. Not because hes doping. I cant also say he is/isn't but lets not he dumb and ignore how far weve come in sports with equipment, conditioning/nutrition/training and tactics.

[@ktg401]

Am I the only one that loves Phil AND Lance??

[@silenagomez3547]

probably

[@SUDO702]

Pogacar after 7W/kg effort for 30minutes looking like he finished his warm up, while the other riders are pale and shattered is not down to nutrition alone.