457: Paul, Power, & Patriarchy with Beth Allison Barr

[@randyletourneau3430]

Let me add to the many kudos to Kaitlynn. I constantly love her responses as so well thought out and so well said. She is simply brilliant. She needs to be on the Holy Post more consistently.

[@Justanotherconsumer]

100% agree. Thoughtful answers that reflected both wisdom and humility.

[@Evelyn-pl3we]

So true!

[@normiejeanj]

Hear, hear! She's amazing.

[@jonathanwedge3354]

Yes! I started watching the show because of Phil. I keep coming back because of Kaitlyn. Her insights are thought provoking and challenging.

[@dianehelena]

Having studied the Latin authors back in the '50s (we had no choice in the field of the Arts back then) and hating every moment of it, I was floored by Ms. Barr's recounting of what transpired in the times of Livy and Cato with respect to the Oppian luxury law. Suddenly it came alive for me and if I had to have taken all those Latin courses for any other reason than for this 'Aha!' moment, it was well worth it. Thank you!

[@JadeousTenerim]

SUPER good conversation with Kaitlyn and Mike! Absolutely loved listening to them cover these topics and would love to hear more from both of them as co-hosts!

[@estelleorr9065]

Yes!!

[@veggiet2009]

As a man who likes knitting, I'd rather not have it be encroached on by women who'd rather not knit.

[@estelleorr9065]

As a woman who enjoys knitting 🧶 I agree

[@greglogan7706]

OK, you guys just keep your knitting to yourself - I don't care about your gender...😅

[@karenallen7064]

Some of the top knitting designers in the last decade have been men - who knit!

[@veggiet2009]

@@greglogan7706 only brought gender up because it's discussed in the video 😁

[@greglogan7706]

@@veggiet2009 😲😮😯🙃

[@absurdican8737]

As someone who enjoys knitting/needlecrafts generally, I was intrigued enough to go look up the tweet they discussed. The "where do you even begin with this" faces they all had when Phil brought it up... yup. What stands out to me, is to abide by that list of approved occupations, a woman has to be married. Specifically, married to a man who has a good enough job for her to live in a one-income household. Just... the breathtaking size of that assumption. Single women, widowed or divorced women, couples who aren't American upper-middle class (known as "rich" to most of the rest of the world)... Women, in other words, who already have struggles and pain to deal with are also--what? In sin for needing to feed themselves and their dependents? The work/home divide didn't really appear until the Industrial Revolution. Cottage industry used to be about the only industry there was. And women were an essential part. A medieval English blacksmith would marry as sturdy a lass as he could find, so she could run the forge if he had to travel for business. I hate a long commute as much as the next person, but is that commute what suddenly makes women "unwomanly" for being wage-earners in the last couple centuries? Or just "unwomanly" for not being married to a rich enough man? Smells like culture, not scripture, to me...

[@Evelyn-pl3we]

Ahhh, this podcast has blessed my soul so much. I love Christ and have found myself feeling "homeless" lately. However, this podcast/community has reminded me that a lot are struggling and it will be okay!

[@thomasgibson4858]

Ok. The subtle Jael's nail reference made me lose it. Love you guys.

[@salimapeacejoy]

I'm so glad my husband respects my feelings. I'm so blessed and I thank God for our late pastor who taught and lived a life before us. A man that honored his wife and loved his children.

[@storiesbydarksaberlight1517]

Fantastic episode! I would love if you'd talk about the current events in Israel and Palestine. I'm really struggling to figure out how to talk about the situation, especially with family members who believe that as Christians we just need to support Israel in anything they do.

[@76JStucki]

I don’t think we need to support everything they do. They’re a nation of humans like any other, and their government has the same tendency toward corruption, etc as any other. I DO believe we need to support their right to exist, and that is precisely what their enemies seek to deny them.

[@scottylamm9673]

The discussion about inerrancy is so good. You can see everywhere in evangelical circles how our current concept of inerrancy has caused massive problems. It’s something we really need to grapple with. Not to beat a dead dinosaur, but it made me think of young earth creationists and how they tie their view of genesis to the authority of the Bible. Those are two separate issues and the conflation of the two has caused a lot of damage.

[@GrimdarkKing]

Interesting. One has to ask…If there was no literal Adam…then how does Christianity make sense? Christ came to both do what the first Adam can not and solve the problem of inherited sin that the first Adam started. If there was no first Adam…then how does that all work?

[@cherokeegypsy2617]

@@GrimdarkKing How does old earth age (creationism) not include the start of humanity with the essential and foundational first ancestral male and female pairing of Adam and Eve? How to you are these things opposites?

[@GrimdarkKing]

@@cherokeegypsy2617 because of Romans 5:12 and the fall/redemption/glorification restoration parallels of Genesis and Revelation… “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people because all sinned…” Death did not exist in the created order until Adam sinned. Adam was placed in a special position of authority over all creation and when he fell all under his authority fell with him. But in this case…all that was placed under his authority was…the entire creation. So he screwed up and things started dying. In the “old world creationist” view (and certainly the evolutionary view)…death was an ever present norm. Things were dying all along. Adam didn’t bring death like the Bible says…death was already there. It basically unwinds the all kinds of other doctrines. If things were dying up to the time Adam was birthed…(not made from the dust of the ground) then wouldn’t he have been already on track to die? Whoever his mother was was going to die after all because every ancestor before her did. And if he was going to die anyway then all the verses about Christ fixing problems that Adam created are false. Then there is the idea is spiritual inheritance. We all have inherited the death sentence of the first Adam. There is a spiritual lineage. We don’t all get to pass the test of the tree in the garden. He failed it and we all get that failing grade. But the opposite is true too. When Jesus passes the new test, those adopted into the divine family via faith in him get the spiritual inheritance provided by the last Adam. But if there was no literal first Adam…then there is no literal last Adam. And the promises of Revelation come to nothing. We are told that the last enemy to be destroyed is death. What does that mean? Well before the fall, the world operates very differently. God has the power of life itself. While he was in full communion with his creation his life itself sustained it. There was no need to “eat” things to survive because death wasn’t a thing. You wouldn’t die if you didn’t eat…because death didn’t exist per Rom 5:12. Eating food from trees was something done for the pure enjoyment of God’s goodness in creating things that taste good to eat. But that was due to change.. Death” in the Bible means “separation”. On the day Adam sinned he and all that was placed under his authority really did “die”. They were separated from God in particular sense. Cut off from the life-giving power of the creator. At that point the creation began to…”lack”. All things had to begin consuming the vestiges of God’s goodness. The sun grows the plants, the herbivores eat the plants, the carnivore eat the herbivores. The cycle is like…”leftovers” of Gods goodness. But we cannot be sustained by God’s life force directly. If we fail to consume his past gifts (food) we die. Well, the promise in Christ is the New Creation. This version, which has been tainted, will be burned to ash and God will speak the restored creation back into existence. And as the giving of the Holy Spirit to Christians is a “down payment promise” of the glorification to come…the giving of the church is the down payment that the New Creation is right now already beginning to be brought about. 2 Cor 5:17 days that if anyone is in Christ (and many are) then the New Creation is already here in the start-up kind of way. It is found in the church. But the fullness will come when the entirety of creation is renewed. The promise of the NewHeavens/Earth is that the universe will be restored to the original state. That is…no more death. All creation will be sustained by the life-giving power of God who is no long separated from man. Death is no long a divide between Creator and Creation. But none of these great promises and truths and realities make sense if Adam didn’t bring death into the picture in the first place. If death was already here before Adam…then maybe it won’t exist in the New Earth? Then why does it say the last enemy to be destroyed is death if death is still there? None of it makes sense. It’s a exercise in futility to try and smash the idea of death existing prior to Adam and the promises of Christ to his people.

[@patrickc3419]

So then why should we interpret the virgin birth or resurrection as literal?

[@ooyem]

Haven't even gotten to the interview yet, but I just wanted to thank Phil, Kaitlynn, and Mike for the amazingly thoughtful, centering, and uplifting discussion. This is exactly what I needed to hear this very day. Bless you guys.

[@cherokeegypsy2617]

Thank you to Beth Allison Barr! A wonderful voice for flipping the dominate (secular) history of male hierarchy (as adopted in some church denominations), and for her honest examination of women in ministry and leadership positions in early Christianity. So now, brothers and sisters, what are we gonna do about it?

[@patrickc3419]

The “male hierarchy” in a church is biblical (Titus, 1 Timothy), and any church that teaches otherwise is in rebellion.

[@Bible33AD]

@@patrickc3419 Which Bible? English VERSIONS? Or Original Greek text? God wud not discriminate against His daughters. The Holy Spirit ordained both men and women at Pentecost. So many other examples. That one Timothy verse doesn’t the whole of scripture make. But the Greek doesn't even say what most reading only the English take at face value. SO MUCH great scholarship on this issue using SCRIPTURAL DATA. All Biblical. People aren't aware... let's learn and have the mind of Christ.

[@patrickc3419]

@@Bible33AD The Bible’s original languages were Hebrew/Aramaic (Old Testament), and Koine Greek (New Testament). Christ almost certainly spoke and regularly used the former but probably was conversant in the latter, as he regularly communicated with Gentiles/non Jews. The most accurate translations as to the original meaning of those languages are: English Standard, New American Standard, and the recently released Legacy Standard. A TRANSLATION, which is what these are, is more accurate than an INTERPRETATION (which would include the NIV, The Living Bible, etc), also known as a dynamic equivalency. Either way, Scripture teaches what we need to hear, not what we want to hear. It is not a matter of superiority, but God ordained roles (Galatians 3:28). Scripture does not contain a single instance of a woman pastor nor elder. Genuine believers have differing views on women serving in the office of deacon.

[@Himmiefan]

@@patrickc3419 Sorry hon, people see women Supreme Court judges, astronauts, surgeons, etc. and think how illogical it is that Christians don’t allow women to lead simple, little country churches. That’s because these verses are for a certain situation at that time in the first century. The Bible must not be misused to uphold male ego/male entitlement, which is the natural male tendency (see all of history).

[@jh5401]

Sidenote: The buffering circle fits perfectly around the Holy Post logo and that small fact kept me entertained until the rest of the video loaded

[@jamieharvey9416]

Yes Mike. I want to go and just read the gospels over and over!! Great podcast as always y’all. Thank you for being real and sharing the love of Jesus.

[@57K]

I really enjoyed the podcast and love hearing your insights and perspectives. I personally struggle with connecting into a church. Many leaders, friends and teachers that I respect encourage a church connection but I struggle to find the importance of it. My faith background: I didn't grow up in a church or have any life long connection to what Christian community looks like. I was saved in my 20's then navigated and grew in my faith with a handful of close Christian friends and I "dated" churches and denominations but never committed to any. The reason being, I have a hard time seeing the point of going to a church. What does a physical church give a person that the world can't give you? For example: If I want to listen to a good sermon I can sit at home and watch a sermon online or through other outlets. I can bible study or form a bible study group outside of a church. I can have a cup of coffee and hangout with like minded people anywhere I want and it doesn't have to be in a church lobby. If it's about Sunday school there are a lot of alternative options to school you're children on the bible. So it's been difficult of me to see the benefits of specifically connected in a traditional church body. I've also found that even if the foundational beliefs are in Jesus, the gray areas of upholding those beliefs seem extreme or confusing or too simplified. I've also found that (and I'm sorry for my lack of a better way to say this) it's a real mixed bag of crazy sometimes. I've talked to people who believe in Christ and the bible but then talk about how they believe in a conspiracy theory of how lizard people are hiding among us. I find that the physical churches are a bit scary and confusing that I've kind of been disenchanted by the whole idea of finding one to connect in. If anyone can give real insight to what you personally feel the church gives you and why you value your time there I'm genuinely interested in hearing the perspective of other people and why they love church.

[@tiffanyharpandsong]

@Kat H Honestly your way sounds wonderful to me. I have such a hard time sitting through sermons by the same person (whose preaching style is not my favorite) week in and week out. Getting together with your friends for a study seems to me it could fill in the "don't forsake the assembly" passage. And yes, I am so over the conspiracy theories. Thankfully I don't know any lizard people proponents, but the persecution narrative and anti-vax beliefs are common in my circle. It does make me seriously question what else christians have swallowed hook line and sinker (actually I'm going through a deconstruction phase myself and that definitely kickstarted it). Anyways, just wanted to say I resonate with what you're saying.

[@57K]

@@tiffanyharpandsong Thank you. I don’t think churches are a bad thing but I really never had this inner desire to connect with other Christians in that way. I always fellowshipped and connected with Christians outside of churches in a bible study or group hike club activity. Going into a physical church always feels like I’m joining in on some pyramid scheme to earn more souls for God or it just feels very sanitized and lacks real humanity in it. Thank you for your perspective cus I constantly get pressure from other Christians to go to traditional church and its simply to fulfill the verse to gather together. I’ve never felt that pressure from God. I wonder if I should just be content where I’m at and let other Christians have their own opinions on it.

[@PracticalChristianWarfare]

I painfully agree with all of you. Church buildings contain concerts and shows pushing for tithe-paying “members” more than anything that looks like Biblical “church”. I attend and serve but avoid the lizard people anti-vaccine crowds as best I can.😢

[@SarahLaSpisa]

Love you three! Mike Erre, Phil and Kaitlyn on the same show. You keep me going and keep me on point when people seem to disappoint. BUT GOD. Thank you Jesus.

[@luisbartolomey3988]

Thank you Kaitlynn 😢 for such a beautiful, heartfelt answer to why should we stay.

[@emmarichardson965]

Kaitlyn, your reactions during "butt news" made it 10x funnier!! 🤣🤣

[@rebeccahayhurst442]

Great conversation with Beth Allison Barr!

[@The5150lady]

Just ordered her book on Amazon. I'm looking forward to reading it. Great episode.

[@onegirlarmy4401]

Throughout history, MEN have been the knitters. In some places, they even had guilds to prevent women from being knitters. If you're nerdy like me, I recommend the book "No Idle Hands," which talks about knitting in history (specifically American history) and how women even knit in church during times of need. Also, knitting is dangerous- if you've read "A Tale of Two Cities."

[@marymasthe1st324]

Loved, loved, loved this! Thank you all! \O/

[@hprfire]

33:40 I really believe the best way to foster that humility that is needed to constantly be in a learning mode is the simple yet neglected discipline of prayer. preach less pray more that is what we need in our discipleship communities.

[@luisbartolomey3988]

The Gospel does not rest on egg shells. Legalism is powered by fear. Fear is used to control.

[@calvinbrown8344]

I love when they have Kaitlyn On the broadcast. She is very wise and beautiful.

[@SoloJona]

New goal: Have a daughter. Name her Junias.

[@veggiet2009]

I should probably buy Beth's book, but I do have a question on the question about 1 Cor. 14. I've been taught that that wasn't a global command but one pointed at the corinthian church because of cultural reasons in Corinth. It's always been something of a weak answer for me, but it's been acceptable enough. The idea that Paul was merely quoting a common idea certainly sounds more solid, but when I reread that passage with that in mind it doesn't greatly change the way that text reads to me, like it sounds like he trying to say that their church is disorderly, "it needs some order, therefore... and also I'm going to include this common wisdom as part of my advice" It doesn't radically change the way I view that scripture. I am definitely on board with everything, I just want to learn more about this.

[@ArtistLynneGenevieve]

Ironically, knitting was originaly a man's occupation (fishing nets) always good to check out the historical context before saying what women can do. 😉 so saying that women can knit means that women can do what men have done (except better) 😅

[@Ill-Kilo-INI]

Same with high heels!

[@greglogan7706]

And lace...😅🤣😇

[@hnewbold2123]

Oh my gosh. Just listening to this interview between Sky and Beth makes my brain hurt. Glimpses behind the veil are almost more than I can handle. I feel unsheltered!

[@clarkemorledge2398]

Skye, your question at 1:31:42 really hits it for me. In this debate, there just seems to be so much ambiguity, that there is no way possible to make a definitive statement that resolves the issue (without appealing to something like an established tradition of the church; as in Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy).As you state, we are left with different groups simply believing what they want to believe, and somehow trying to live with the contradictions. In other words, we will pretty much be stuck with Protestant evangelical churches continuing to divide between complementarian and egalitarian factions, with no hope of possible union of the churches, which will only result in greater scandal for non-believers, when they look at how divided the church is. Beth's answer, despite all of her wonderfully good intentions, does not seem to help. This type of ambiguity may not be a problem for her, but for me, it is extremely depressing actually. It robs us of the energy needed to proclaim the Gospel, in favor of getting distracted by intractable disputes like this. Yuck.

[@thescottharris]

Love this whole episode so much! Well done all.

[@Carlphish]

@18:15 As someone who worked in software QA for years I can tell you what the developers said to us very often; “It’s not a bug, it’s a feature…”

[@blaizeharkens]

This is just me, but as a woman who has chosen to be a wife and mother, but who has also been studying the Bible for 25 years, I feel as though the implication that "lay-people" cannot have a correct understanding of Scripture is putting me right back into a position of subjugation. I'm now at the mercy of whatever scholar whose teaching I happen to be under with no room for the Holy Spirit and godly discernment. It was tough to listen to the rest of the interview with that hanging over my head.

[@GrimdarkKing]

What happens when people who believe that the “Holy Spirit” and “discernment” end up running off into error? I know people that ran right into believing we need to observe the Old Testament laws and feasts. Even though we have the book of Galatians.

[@robertguidry2168]

It depends on what you mean by evangelicalism. Is it staying true to the Scriptures or maintaining a hard right, conservative viewpoint, voting for Trump just because he is against abortion and not listen to the concerns of people of color.

[@michlbentley]

The more I watch these videos, I realize that I really don’t know this thing that people call “evangelicalism.” I have been an ordained pastor for 10 years. I’m probably much more theologically conservative than these hosts. Yet, some of the experiences Phil and the others chalk up to “evangelicalism” are really not at all how I’ve experienced the Church. Thanks for the education.

[@Carlphish]

I doubt he'd remember me, but I recall a Theology class I took at the same time as Mike at Talbot back in 2003-2004. Nice to see he hasn't changed a bit! :)

[@wcdeich4]

where is the discussion on Biblical translation errors about submission they talked about at the end of this video?

[@theologytogether]

Always enjoy your content. Really interesting conversation.

[@deepwater7250]

If I may answer why I love the church. One of my parents reclused themselves from church their friends and finally their own family members. It was torture to love someone who was dead to you but alive for twelve years, we lived in this stasis of not being able to do anything but pray....I knew from my own battle with the enemy of our souls that the Bible acts like a mirror to us in how we are living our lives and how we are to be mirrors to each other. We can use this power to either build up or tear down both are nessesary, to clarify, to tear down would be to not participate in an activity that would not glorify God and to build up would look like encouraging healthy thoughts and behaviors in those around us. What was stolen from my parent was joy...what if they chose to forgive or laugh at themselves what laughter and healing was lost...we all lost. Stay together and just learn to laugh at how we used to think and bend a knee even when it's hard to forgive as God has forgiven us.

[@ezbody]

Perhaps, instead of fighting with the "enemy", you should have insisted on taking your parent to the doctor. Tradition of widespread ignorance is why I don't love the church.

[@deepwater7250]

@@ezbody first off there are laws protecting the right of the individual if they don't want help no one can drag you into a hospital for treatment...secondly if my parents who loved each other were not enough no one was going to listen to a child....I went to school councillors they said they would not help.

[@scottylamm9673]

I’m sure he hears this all the time but Mike looks like Hank from Breaking Bad. He is a dead ringer. Also a great episode!

[@joannejenkins7272]

Change the lies with the truth. Reach the world. Put "the truth" on the BIG SCREEN. That's where people are reached today🥰😇🙏

[@kayleighjohnson3612]

Kaitlyn and I would be friends if God put us in the same room at the same time. She is such a gem to this podcast!❤️

[@Cyrribrae]

Lovely to hear a millennial (or younger..?) defend the role of some institutions. They can be flawed and in deep need of reform, but nope-ing out at the first sign of conflict or disagreement is not a good way to effect change.

[@estelleorr9065]

That’s Kaitlin! She just finished seminary and it going on to a PhD program in theology. She regularly speaks up for not throwing out the baby with the bath water. Edit: I thoroughly enjoy when she’s on the podcast 😊

[@marymasthe1st324]

Kaitlyn is Gen Z! Crazy amazing! Thankful to God for her. x

[@veggiet2009]

Grouchland, that's where that porta potty would take you, Phil

[@kellyann3292]

When Mike blamed Kaitlyn for swearing. It’s a joke that usually lands well with anyone that grew up evangelical, fundamental etc 🤣

[@supershaneman]

I saw Kaitlyn had Reimagining Church on her bookshelf on another recent episode. I’d like to hear her take on the organic church movement and deconstructing the institutional church, especially in light of her recent seminary achievement. Congrats, btw! Personally, I have hope for a new thing, free of man-made theological systems and hierarchy and true to the Spirit-filled Word of God and His liberated people, men, women, black, white, jew and gentile.

[@RabLRousR]

I spent a few minute googling the term she used "xxx_authority" and didn't find it. Not sure what the spelling is.

[@bzrk_2298]

When Phil had first said about deconstruction, I thought Kevin Max was going to be brought up.

[@thetruest7497]

Really good episode. Thoroughly enjoyed.

[@luisbartolomey3988]

Phil the discussion of trends doesn’t trickle down to the average pew warmer. Those discussions are had at the theologian level and those that are theologically well read.

[@robertguidry2168]

WAIT, so the law Paul is referring to is the ROMAN law, not the Torah. The Torah says nothing about wives submitting to their husbands.

[@rebeccabrockway8258]

Maybe everything religious - all religions - need to be scrapped. Why do we need them? Have we outgrown religion (Christianity)?

[@acy24boo]

@27:30 in my experience deconstruction of one's religion is constructive. But why it is deconstructive is important, is it that this religious practices does not dwell with Christ or this practice does not dwell in me

[@clarkemorledge2398]

I appreciate that Beth's stated purpose in writing her book is to convince complementarians that one can be an egalitarian and still be orthodox. I would also hope that if someone reading her book is not eventually persuaded by her reading of Scripture that she would not dismiss them as hopelessly misogynistic. I thought Wendy Alsup's review of Beth's book was equally generous, fair, and appropriately critical: theologyforwomen.org/2021/05/review-the-making-of-biblical-womanhood.html . I wonder if Beth would be willing to interact with Wendy on this?

[@RabLRousR]

1:31:00 great point.

[@exiled_londoner]

I have no idea why the KZbin algorithm threw this video into my recommended list and I have no intention of sitting through it, but one question posed in the intro did intrigue me a little - 'are the problems plaguing evangelicals just a bug or an actual feature?' I assume this question refers to the high proportion of 'evangelical Christians' who have become beguiled by the fascist MAGA/America First campaign to overthrow democratic elections in the USA and replace them with authoritarian autocratic dictatorship, ironically led by an atheist gangster whose claims to be a Christian are so palpably false that no sane person could believe them... and the answer is obvious. This is clearly a feature of a culture and a mindset that discourages critical thinking, rational scepticism, and evidence-based decision making. People who are trained and indoctrinated from infancy to believe things for which there is no good evidence, who are trained to accept 'Arguments from Authority' as valid and reasonable, and who are told that 'objective morality' not only exists but is dictated by an invisible being whose own subjective opinions on what is and is not 'moral must be applied to everyone... these are exactly the kind of gullible, intellectually incurious, and morally bankrupt people who will fall for anything if it is repeated to them often enough and loudly enough. Evangelical 'Conservatives' in the USA have long formed a large, Clerical Fascist mass movement intent on imposing a sectarian confessional social order on their fellow citizens and on overthrowing the USA's secular Constitution. But now they have also become associated and allied with a broader movement of racists and white nationalists (with whom they increasingly overlap) and are actively trying to heat up the low-level Civil War that has been simmering in the USA for years. This is so obvious that it is surprising that any intelligent observer needs to ask the question at all.

[@thetruest7497]

As an atheist, this is a good podcast. Although they don't tend to approach the ultimate question of all these issues in evangelicalism and Christianity as a whole, they do address these obvious social issues nonetheless and flash a light on how evangelicalism has exacerbated the problems. I'll take that sort of Christian over people like Sam Harris every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

[@ezbody]

@@thetruest7497 LOL, have you ever been a Christian, Mr. "Atheist"?

[@thetruest7497]

@@ezbody yes, the 1st 19 years of life. Last 20, nope.

[@jgunn03]

This interview is terrible argumentation Why not just admit Paul got some things wrong. Why not just admit the writers of the Bible got things wrong? The argument that we need to look at things like misogyny and slavery in the context of the time it's written is gross. To say that there was a time when it was morally justified to own, beat and rape people is disgusting. Just as the argument that women should sit down and be quiet is disgusting.

[@jgunn03]

@@King_of_Hogwartz2 Whether or not Hitler thought killing Jews was immoral, it was. And as for making broad statements like "In ancient cultures, they thought this way", well, it is very white of you. It's narrow-minded. I assure you many people in ancient cultures ~especially the enslaved people~ viewed slavery as immoral. And WTF was all this Bible scripture about? What difference does that make? Slavery is and always has been immoral. BTW, the laws you state were for Jewish people. Others had their own laws concerning slavery, if any. Some 'cultures' might not have even permitted it. We don't know. This part of history is lost to us. I'm sure many Jewish people who lived in Biblical times felt slavery was immoral. Jewish people aren't and have never been a monolith. Just cuz one's pastor thinks something is OK doesn't mean her whole congregation feels it's not immoral. Heck, look at the controversy over female pastors. Look at the disagreement over whether or not homosexuality is OK. There's disagreement in the pews as to whether or not the pastor got it right. Why were you even responding to my statement? Yes, the Bible got a LOT of stuff wrong ~which you just admitted. And Paul was a blatant misogynist.

[@mostreal907]

Ohhh man! This will be good!

[@January14q]

So every lay person without enough education can’t understand Scripture?! There is common grace and the Holy Spirit illuminates the Word giving us wisdom. Let us still study it. For the Word of God is penetrating, it’s alive and active and we are to delight in it.

[@luisbartolomey3988]

Lol 🤣 thank God there is a line.

[@denisewhiteside2675]

“Faith rests on Jesus. Not a book and not a bunch of doctrine.” Without doctrine you have no belief system in which Jesus exists. Faith in Jesus requires belief in the doctrine of God and all other doctrines that undergird, enshroud and encompass who and what He was, is and ever more will be. That’s a ridiculous statement. Perhaps he needs to study what doctrine means. For example - do you believe in the birth, death, burial and resurrection of Jesus and what that means for mankind? That is doctrine.

[@jeni688]

An agnostic friend of mine asked me recently if I was evangelical -fringe. So I guess we are the "bugs."

[@tagaldersibes]

All I know is I want to get in the same rowboat as you guys ❤️

[@BYLRPhil]

I had Dr Barr as a professor (two classes) at Baylor. Fantastic professor! And I simultaneously agree/disagree with much of what she says here. I’m a complimentarian, but I think women have leadership roles in the church. Basically, they can hold any role but elder. But, that’s just me.

[@Himmiefan]

Are you reading scripture through the lenses of the sinful, worldly view of male entitlement, male ego? That mentality is what has dominated most of humanity for most of history. Christ, of course, had a different view.

[@rebeccabrockway8258]

No "shelter" (no safety net) can feel unfamiliar and uncertain, yet stick with it. Maybe it's an opportunity to dump stuff that's no longer useful.

[@luisbartolomey3988]

Some level of deconstruction is necessary for growth.

[@truthseeker9641]

I wonder if Prof. Barr used any of Emerson Eggerichs "Love and Respect" ideas. If that God inspired mandate were practiced by most family units in Christiandom, the issue of "patriarchal power" and its abuses would be reduced greatly. I think there's greater Scriptural basis for male authority, NOT male dominance and certainly not to the exclusion of women. The Complementarian Position (CP for short) held by people like Piper, Baucham, etc seems to be, like Prof Barr pointed out, coming from a convenient misreading of Scripture under the guise of "adhering to the inerrancy of Scripture". A best case scenario for men who advocate the CP is for them to realize that by having all the power and control, they also have to bear the responsibility for everything that could go wrong. I see the more normative scenario is that the CP is held by men who want power and control and see women as inferior.

[@GrimdarkKing]

Paul says women are to be silent. But apparently now we are to believe he really meant the exact opposite. Did God really say? Sounds like the hiss of the serpent. What’s next? Christ said that the only way to the father was through him…but someone is going to do a bunch of “research” and tell everyone that what Christ REALLY meant is that all paths up the mountain lead to God?

[@Himmiefan]

Ah, you're not taking in account what Paul was referring to when he told certain women to be silent. Context is key - all women for all time or just the ones making noise in the Corinthian church, enthusiastic because they had not been able to participate in Jewish ceremonies? No women can ever lead, ever, just because they don't have a certain body part or because the cult of Diana was infiltrating the church at Ephesus and the women, who were uneducated, were believing the wrong things and therefore weren't competent at that point to lead? You have to look at the Bible overall to get the real answer. Verse by verse will lead you to believe incorrect things.

[@robertguidry2168]

Where is SKYE??? WE WANT SKYE! WE WANT SKYE! WE WANT SKYE!!!

[@Prior2Popular]

All the men who love knitting have left the chat LOL

[@nathanwatson1915]

Speaking of diagrams of end-times events and prophecies, check out that grifter Stan Johnson of the "Prophecy Club," he's got a very elaborate layout of future (current?) events and will be very happy to tell you Trump is an integral part of it all and that you should buy bulk prepper food, water purifiers, silver bullion, EMP protection, etc from him.

[@greglogan7706]

At 1.30 she shows her hand - concerning slavery she is simply appropriating her own modern culture hold her own personal value system back into the Bible which is exactly what she's doing with women to gaming the text it's so painfully obvious the same way she's gaming the text with slavery - really exposes who she is and what she's up to - it's just blatantly dishonest

[@greglogan7706]

@@King_of_Hogwartz2 I am fine with that and do so all the time however I don't think that's the vantage point she's coming from - that is what I mean by Gaming the text

[@denniscorkery5097]

Didn't Jesus discourage the pursuit of prominence? Those who are the greatest are those who serve. Even Christ humbled himself. He did not assert the prerogatives of deity. Feminism seems to be rooted in envy of masculinity. I find Beth's arguments unconvincing. The assumption is that prominence and prestige are valued over humble service and motherhood. Christianity teaches the opposite.

[@luisbartolomey3988]

What !!!!????? knitting 🧶 God please help us !!

[@wcdeich4]

a few of us were always pre-millenial............. but I don't judge lol :D

[@rhondaleeaping9463]

Man. How to be first comment on this thing?

[@jeffrohm776]

If in fact the word Complimentarian was a rebranding of Patriarchy originally, do we throw that word out and just assume it's bad? A broken world and a broken people will always mis-represent things...we see that with Christians and Evangelicals in many situations. Or can we come up with a new word if it's more helpful? If a true vision of God's roles for men and woman (who are equal image bearers for sure) but clearly seem to flourish when "complimenting" one another as one in a marriage context or family unit and yes it gets a little more dicey when talking about what that looks like in the church, I still see that as more plausable than the word "Egalitarian" with what people define that as. Outside of marriage and the family unit seems different, the church structure is debatable (but church influence shouldn't be)...but outside of that in business and opportunity etc. "Egalitarian" makes total sense so it's not a bad term either. When I hear "you do whatever God calls you to be" for women OR men should still be bathed in what God's purpose and will is for each of us. I think that sometimes could be an excuse to go inward and just do what we want in all areas of life. Could this be an area where Christians should look a little alien to culture as a Gospel signpost or is this completely secondary and should we just blend in here?

[@Himmiefan]

I think the problem is with what people mean as complementarian. The anti-women, male-ego/male-entitlement crowd see complementarian as men in charge and women only stay home and make babies and cook for church potlucks. I think the true definition, and how I think God see it, is that men and women serve side by side in all areas of life, combining their strengths and compensating for any weaknesses.

[@jeffrohm776]

@@Himmiefan agreed. we are never to take an idealogy or view to it's extreme to define it. Some of the old regime that supported Complementarianism may have fallen into the trap of male domination type entitlement. I continue to lean into understanding all sides and perhaps these 2 words don't end up being the best to take a "position". In fact I think Complementarian already includes Egalitarian. It's when you separate it out that Egaliarian has a hard time standing on it's own. I can't get away from the feeling that Egalitarian comes across as first about "rights" to be someting or do something as an individual in a relationship vs."serving" . There are just some things logically, physically, and emotionally that you can never cut down the middle or experience as man vs. woman if you will...that's why complementing each other feels more like serving each other in our strengths and weaknesss--not about who is in charge or role definition. We are equal as image bearers but clearly made as 2 genders in the context of marriage as a team to serve His purposes and best bring Him glory.

[@JohnThomas-ut3go]

Where's a portapotty in a tornado take you? Hospital for all the fecal matter you get covered with/ingest. If you're lucky.

[@rebeccabrockway8258]

Wondering if the Holy Post team believes in the existence of heaven and hell? Do you believe Jesus is the pathway to eternal life? Would you still follow Jesus - commit to Jesus - if he did not offer you eternal life?

[@rketek]

Patriarchy: what can you say about 1 Cor 11:3 - But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband...? ESV

[@smc2673]

That went out the window about 50 years ago when divorce & remarriage entered the church. Most professing Christian men have abdicated their role as husband and father. Most play the whore and are proud of it. God is completely destroying the “church” because of this.

[@martarico186]

Do you believe in the material man made by God?

[@Creddiam]

Knitting? He knows they were naked in paradise right?

[@robertw5749]

Mike looks like he needs someone to rescue him! = )

[@hiawathasbrother]

Hey Mike -- it is patronizing to keep telling Kaitlyn how smart she is. It also makes you seem insecure. As a general rule, don't pat someone on the head in the midst of a conversation.

[@123JWJWJW]

Kaitlyn makes me think of Hailee Steinfeld

[@chuckthompson5724]

Well come on over to the Stone-Campbell movement but, gotta warn you we are in the process of flux also. No creed but the bible, major on the majors and the rest is opinion.

[@lifeonleo1074]

I don't think. She is a perfect example of how we use our modern feelings to interpret the bible, she kept on saying I don't think, when it was clear what Paul was saying. Paul clearly established authority in the home, he said wives submit like onto God. So a woman is under a man's authority. But then he said his ands love your wives as christ loves the church , clearly stating that dont misuse your authority use it the way christ would use his authority over us Christians. She is imputing her faminist ideas onto the Bible. Her second argument is that male authority could not be the norm because it becomes oppressive to women and turns out badly. That's because when God established male authority it was suppose to be for perfect being, it was suppose to be for being that would not abuse it because they were holy and perfect and sinless. These male authority systems are abused not because they are not God's intention but because man is sinful. Sin corrupts things, it destroys God's plan. This professor is in error. When talking about Paul she skips the emphasis about Paul telling wives to submit and makes it as if Paul's entire emphasis was on husband love your wives. Paul emphasized both, beccause he was establishing structure but she just skipped it like Paul only emphasised on husband love your wives. His argument about descriptive or prescriptive makes no sense, if it was discrpitive there would be no need for Paul to address it, there would be no need for Paul to tell wives to submit because that was the way things were. Rather Paul was establishing make authority and linking it to the authority of christ, basically Paul was saying submit to your husband not because he us male but as a symbol of how the church ought to submit to christ. In that way he was flipping the tables, he was saying submit nit because he is male and inherently better than you but because it is a reflection of the way the church submits to his lordship.

[@Himmiefan]

Actually, Paul said first, submit to one another. You have to look through the teachings of Christ to correctly interpret Paul. Jesus said to love one another; he never said anything about male/female relationships. So, we see Paul saying to submit to one another (that means husbands and wives to each other) and then husbands take care of wives as Christ takes care of the church. There's nothing about who is the boss and everything about love, and no "head" here doesn't mean "boss." These verses are one example of Christ's command to love one another, and it's a radical teaching given that in that society, women were the property of men (the sinful, worldy, view based on male ego and male entitlement - too many read the Bible through the lenses of male ego/male entitlement).

[@TheRudehamster]

I have listened to several of your podcasts and I must say, I find it troubling how you consistently use weak theology to justify a political position. I see no difference between this and someone who uses cherry picked scripture to justify Christian Nationalism.

[@Cyrribrae]

That's a broad statement with no examples or reasoning. (Especially since this was posted 15 minutes after this podcast was released.. But hey, 2x speed?) What do you mean by that?

[@greglogan7706]

MannerHammer, You do need to provide at least one example to have even a shred of credibility above total idiot when you make a comment like that.

[@greglogan7706]

Phil Starting to wonder that they are maybe not bugs...😖😖?? Dude, evangelicalism is a complete sewer and a total disaster that has been perfectly demonstrated in the last 4 years to everybody but for those of us who pay attention we have seen it and a massive amount of overt fascism, disorientation, malice slander and deceit of all sorts etc imbedded in that system literally from the days of John Calvin and Martin.

[@Redactedlllllllllllll]

But what did Jesus say?