Picard And Young Guinan Bar Scene Part 1 | Star Trek Picard S02E04

[@damocles8417]

Don’t you remember Guinan? We had that adventure together with Mark Twain.

[@mstwelvedeadlycyns]

Lol

[@Caporegime18]

That exact thing was bugging me through this entire scene lol.

[@901Wes]

Did that happen in this timeline?

[@christopherbrentbrown8840]

Right!!?!?! She should be saying what are you doing here?? And much older !

[@Pyrochase]

This Guinan never had that experience because Picard was never around since his ancestor was not in the mission she was supposed to be a part of.

[@Wes-xk6hl]

Gotta love the "she always works at 10 forward" reaction

[@bthsr7113]

Just... the music and especially his smile. Here in the distant, dirty past... he's found some of his home away from home (or really his preferred home). He looks like he shed the ugly overcoat of those long years. Then someone else's coat gets thrown in his face. Still, he got a simple smile, even if it was short.

[@benjohnson8175]

Nice to see Guinan always has a gun handy behind the bar.

[@skoshman1]

That was setting one....

[@BladeZero238]

@@skoshman1 We definitely don't want her to use setting two in this case.

[@raymondyu412]

Guinan has a weapon on Enterprise D ten forward when the entire crew went nuts

[@smellfunny1864]

Why didn't she just use her "Witch Hands" like she did with Q when they were in 10 Forward on the D? They were mighty scary.

[@Dowlphin]

And what barkeeper hasn't?

[@Dinosreviews]

Makes no sense that she doesn’t recognise him. Previous events like Times Arrow and Voyage Home have had to of happened regardless of the future being changed at a later event. They even suggested that the Punk had been knocked out by Spock in the past.

[@OlaBetiku]

The writer said those events didn't happen because the timeline was tampered with but there are still echoes or feelings.

[@LGranthamsHeir]

Simple explanation: timeline change (and the show runners have confirmed it).

[@BOBMAN1980]

It's because these writers are DUMB AF. Also, there's been times in TNG where Guinan KNEW that things weren't 'right' when the timeline had been tampered with.

[@freespeechisdead1565]

Alex Kurtzman's only talent is being untalented, pair that with the fact he's never watched a single episode of any Star Trek series and this is how these things happen.

[@Voodoomaria]

When has ANYTHING in this series made sense? They have no respect for the source material so it's small wonder they can't get simple things right.

[@Progger11]

Wow. The actress playing young Guinan is absolutely breathtaking!

[@CoolGobyFish]

Yes, i would say too atttactive to be young version of Whoopi

[@Progger11]

@@CoolGobyFish Unfortunately, yes. I was thinking the same thing, but thought it would be mean for me to actually type it. But yes... You're not wrong.

[@Progger11]

Whoopi is an amazing actress, though!!

[@CoolGobyFish]

@@Progger11 she is Ok actress, not bad, but not to great either. not on Patrick Stewart level.

[@MrChilidog9]

😂 age does all sorts of things to visible appearance 😮😅😅

[@mikicerise6250]

LOL. I may be an El-Aurian, but I'm an AMERICAN El-Aurian. *grabs shotgun. caclack!*

[@Zaluskowsky]

Lol

[@JonnySublime]

NRA for eternity

[@landonletterman831]

The street name is Forward Ave The bar's address number is 10 ..... Guinean has now run two bars on 10 Forward.... I love it! (And Picard grabbing his head when he realizes) And that is genius, because how could anybody from Enterprise, that knew her, *NOT* walk in with a big'ol smile after that!

[@chrisatronx]

I clapped AT-ST AT-ST

[@httohot]

@@chrisatronx Consume product then get excited to consume next product

[@brianlabbie]

IDK, it bothers me a bit, 10 forward was named that because it was on Deck 10 in the forward section of the Enterprise.

[@chrisatronx]

@@httohot Do you remember 10 FORWARD? DO YOU REMEMBER GUINAN? CONSOOOOOOOOM

[@Gunnar001]

According to these _Picard_ writers, the origin of the Ten Forward name on the Enterprise-D came from a bar Guinan had when she was younger, hundreds of years in the past...which is incredibly fucking stupid AND clearly contradictory. It's just another indication that the talentless morons who write this garbage don't give a shit about respecting the real Star Trek shows and the established continuity. The ACTUAL reason Ten Forward on the Enterprise is called Ten Forward is simply because it’s LOCATED on *deck 10, forward section 1* of the ship. Hell, every Galaxy class starship would have a “Ten Forward” recreational facility. There’s nothing unique about it and Guinan certainly didn’t name this section on the Enterprise-D after her shitty old bar. The origin of the Ten Forward name has _nothing_ to do with her. It takes literally 10 goddamn seconds of google searching to find out why it’s called Ten Forward in Trek canon. It’s also directly stated in the TNG episodes, which these lazy _NuTrek_ hacks would know if they actually watched the show and did a minuscule amount of research. But, of course, REMEMBER GUINAN!?!?!!! REMEMBER TEN FORWARD?!?!!! REMEMBER GUINAN _IN_ TEN FORWARD!?!?! THESE ARE THINGS I KNOW!!!! And the dumb masses clap and cheer....

[@jamiefoyers2800]

Interesting meeting despite the fact that technically they SHOULD know each other!. The show putting in a "Watcher" (heavenly being aka alien) and Guinan being an "El-lorian"...there goes the "EL" Prefix for those of you in the know...the writers are leaving a few clues in here...despite the time line muck up...

[@OlaBetiku]

In this timeline the federation never happened so the Enterprise crew never traveled back in time and Picard never met Guinan... This is why she doesn't know him and all she is getting is feelings. This is similar to the Yesterday's Enterprise episode where she had a feeling Tasha shouldn't be there and then later when Tasha's Romulan daughter shows up she had a feeling about that. Guinan has always been vague about what she knows and how she knows it.

[@krafka]

Good call...except for one thing. In the late 19th century in Time's Arrow, Guinan was older looking than she is here. So, even if she doesn't know Picard, she'd still be and older Whoopi Goldberg in this time period.

[@Stormcaller3801]

@@krafka They built the explanation into the original timeline discussion between Picard and Guinan, where she says she decided to try and keep up with the humans aging around her. This Guinan obviously has no such sentimentality.

[@bodvarson1933]

but the punk dude remembered spock. and she could hear herself talking to Picard in the future. This also happened before the events that changed the future to begin with happened. Guinan hearing herself in the future being a retarded plot idea aside, none of that should be possible if what you said is true.

[@scottys1423]

Not to mention vague about her history with Q.

[@OlaBetiku]

@@bodvarson1933 We don't know if he remembered what happened with Spock, He might have just had a feeling, he seemed kinda confused like he just had a feeling but didn't know why... They kinda explained that she heard herself cuz her people have an odd thing where they can know about stuff they have done even if the timeline is messed up... apparently the Borg Queen has this ability as well. Honestly the whole thing is a bit timey whimey. Past episodes have shown that Guinan could retain fractions of memories even when the timeline was altered... So honestly it is what it is... they have always been vague when it comes to Q, Guinan, and the Borg Queen... Having them all in one story is bound to get confusing.

[@Hustler1856]

All great short vids thanks

[@metalore]

Jesus that music in the beginning!

[@vitesse_arnhem]

0:14 love the graffiti on the wall that says ST TNG

[@dominiclastchance9579]

There is enough observable information to reasonably conclude, this is the same past that Picard visited Guinan in 1890. The punk on the bus is proof the past has not changed: he displayed physical discomfort when remembering the Vulcan pinch employed against him by Spock, after being asked by Seven to silence his noise. Guinan hasn't changed. She can sense changes as they relate to people she's met. The problem here is that Picard is not Picard! He's a robot. Therefore this was the first encounter Guinan has had with him. The Picard 2.0 obviously interfered with her clairsentience, but she recalled him when he told her his name; and at the bar in the future on episode 1 of the season she sensed the robot version of him after he entered, because she knew him from 2024!

[@michaeldiekmann6494]

How old is that Punk supposed to be? In his 60s?

[@TheNinjaMarmot]

Well, by your reasoning shouldn't she be scared of not sensing Picard at all. Did robots exist in 2024? Do Alureans sense toasters too. Do all toasters feel different? She can remember a name, but she can't remember a face? No, because this is actually bad screenwriting from bad research. I mean, couldn't they de-age Guinan like they did with Q. I couldn't even recognise her!

[@Recon777x]

That's a pretty poor hand-wave for bad writing. She would obviously remember his likeness even if he was older. His general appearance and voice would be similar enough for her to go "omg it's you" at the very least. Clearly, the "writers" of this episode never even saw Time's Arrow. Clearly, all the makers of this train wreck of a show never even saw TNG and if they did, they certainly do not _respect_ it.

[@jormugand5578]

While the mind is that of the Picard who died and whose mind was transferred to an android body in season 1 but is his body human or android? After all the rest of the crews' minds were transferred to the respective bodies of their alternate timeline counterparts with alternate Annika apparently not having been absorbed by the Borg (hence no Borg implants) so why wouldn't Picard's mind also be transferred from the android body to the alternate timeline's Picard body?

[@justanotherape]

@@jormugand5578 I'm now on board with why Times Arrow didnt happen, but you do make a good point. Picard should not be in an Android body (maybe he isn't) have they confirmed that he is still an android at this point? also I suppose memories would also be subject to the timeline change so perhaps Q has intervened in other ways? making Anneka able to pass for non-human, keeping memories intact etc etc.

[@chrisatronx]

Given that Guinan has the ability to sense through time, she should have instantly recognized him. Or did Kurtzman forget about the episode 'Yesterdays Enterprise"

[@tome7998]

she only got that ability a few centuries laterat the time Kirk went missing (Generations)

[@chaywarburton3488]

Not to mention that this Q so affected the timeline that there's a possibility she never knew him, even in the 'future'. Q did explain that, that future was gone.

[@boylan835]

Exactly

[@drockjr]

Yesterdays Enterprise was set much later than 2024 though. But your comment would still be valid if you meant the episode Time's Arrow

[@chrisatronx]

@@drockjr In Yesterdays Enterprise, the timeline was changed and Natasha Yar never died. Although Guinan had never met the character of Yar, she knew instantly that something was wrong with her and had a sixth sense that the timeline had been changed. She should have had the same response here too. Now I'm no temporal mechanics expert but Times Arrow was still set before 2024 and at this point in the show, the timeline still hasn't been changed, so she should have still recognized him from those events too.

[@bartlemmons1704]

In a hard care trek fan. I dont like the picard franchise 1 and 2. But the one thing I do admire is guinan. The young guinan. I love her

[@Wesley_H]

Haha. He’s as mindblown by the fourth wall breaking Easter egg of an address as I am.

[@Dowlphin]

How is that breaking the fourth wall?

[@LGranthamsHeir]

2:44 - 2:50 At least we now know how did Guinan acquire her ability to use a gun, as seen in TNG's "Night Terrors" 😄

[@LGranthamsHeir]

2:44 - 2:50 I'm glad Picard is not speaking w/ Sisko, because for the latter "old man" is a term of endearment 😄😆

[@shep9231]

hell. to me. the term, 'old man' is a compliment.

[@LGranthamsHeir]

@@shep9231 That's how Sisko called his old mentor Curzon Dax. After Curzon died, he called all new Dax symbiont hosts Jadzia and Ezri "old man" from time to time as well.

[@tomwheeler2012]

In ST-TNG Picard met Guinan in 1800s San Francisco. You think he could introduce himself as Picard and Guinan would at least remember the name or the meeting or it that the Al Aureans have long lives and short memories LOL

[@pogo1140]

A lot of this seems to have been filmed at the Universal backlot.

[@v12vanquish]

Remember when guinan was in the 1800s and looked the same :/

[@Arkalius80]

Yes, well whoopi goldberg was a little younger back then.

[@lylewyant3356]

I knew it. I knew it! Guinan once asked Picard if he remembered the first they met.

[@atticusbulan3508]

Wasn’t she referring to Time’s Arrow? Where Picard (and most of the bridge officers) get stranded in San Francisco in the 1920s or earlier?

[@olindetroit7636]

This is alternate universe created by Q. Not the same Guinan.

[@atticusbulan3508]

@@olindetroit7636 Isn’t it not the AU created by Q yet? Q made 1 change to the Star Trek timeline, and they determined that they still have a few days before that change happens. Even then, Times Arrow take place at least 100 years before this, so the Guinan from the confederation timeline would still remember Picard as they met before the divergence

[@Gunnar001]

@@olindetroit7636 All of _NuTrek_ is set in some dumb alternate universe. Clearly not the same as the prime Star Trek universe.

[@MrQuantumInc]

There's a lot of debate as to whether the writers understood Guinan. What I see is that Picard expected her to recognize him and is surprised she didn't, meaning the writers knew but rather than that ability to make things easier, they use it fuel the sense of dread. If there is an explanation it going to take a while since leaving that question in the air adds to the suspense.

[@davidmasterson7173]

In TNG it was always hinted that Guinan and Picard had some history, they had known each other a long time. Then in a later TNG episode we learn that their history was some corny time travel episode where they discovered some aliens in San Francisco. It'll be nice if they give Guinan and Picard something more important to do here, so that when Guinan later becomes the bartender on the Enterprise and it's suggested that Picard and Guinan have some important history, it's something better than "we once hung out with Mark Twain." Then again, I'm not even sure the same time travel rules apply. Will TNG Guinan remember this as part of her past?

[@michaelmartin8337]

Just when you thought "they" couldn't mess it up - I guess that Mark Twain story didn't happen

[@myfakename5582]

Ok lets be honest this had to an intimidating role and shoes to fill.

[@andievecchione9315]

LUNA!

[@Calriec]

10 Forward Ave.? Seriously,? Did the writers even watch TNG? The bar on the Enterprise is called Ten Forward because it's on Deck 10 in the forward section of the saucer!

[@oldtwinsna8347]

And how do we know this naming convention wasn't a byproduct of the real bar? The Galaxy class is massive with huge configurable space, so just like one can get an acronym to fit anything, they could do the same getting a big recreation room setup to fit the name.

[@Calriec]

@@oldtwinsna8347 That seems like a bit of a stretch to me. The writers should have done their research.

[@Gunnar001]

@@oldtwinsna8347 Are you kidding? No. It's CLEARLY called Ten Forward because that's the section of the ship where it's located. _Deck 10, forward section 1._ Stated several times in TNG. Hell, every Galaxy class starship would have a Ten Forward recreational facility. There's nothing unique about it at all and it's certainly not called that because a random El-Aurian named it after a shitty bar they owned hundreds of years before. It's typical stupid _NuTrek_ writing by talentless hacks who are too lazy to do basic research.

[@alexandercurtis4671]

How does she not know him? She met him in that Mark Twain episode. If the argument is made that the evil Picard never went back in time, does it not stand to reason then that the split occurred much further back than the twenty-first century? Also, what's the story justification for her being young again when she was already Whoopi Goldberg's age in the aforementioned episode?

[@greenhill004]

Do you think any of Picard 'writers' bothered to watch TNG?

[@berighteous]

She didn't know him because he was one of thousands of folks she has met in the last 200 years on earth. He was 30 years younger when she met him before. I talk to folks all the time I'd never recognize again decades later out of context.

[@justinhammer3196]

How does she look younger than when she would pal around with Mark Twain in 1890? And why doesn't she "feel" the change in history?

[@the60skid48]

@@greenhill004 these new people making these shows don’t care about continuity. They just make it up as they go. This is why the new stuff is crap.

[@itchyisvegeta]

She doesn't know him here because the writers are stupid. Something as simple as a "you look familiar" would have made all the difference.

[@springking7370]

No one ever just gets to the point. Just talk pIcard. Takes forever to talk and tell her who you are and why you are there.

[@The_Mighty_Fiction]

Probably some horseshit about too much information disrupting the timeline

[@Eisenheim1191]

This just dawned on me... The lost opportunity to have Tom Hardy reprise his role role from Star Trek Nemesis as a young Jean-Luc Picard. My god what could have been 😢

[@JukeboxOddities]

#notmyguinan She should know picard, given the fact that they met in the wild west.

[@jogarthehutt]

So ,seeing they meet in the 1800s (times arrow), that's a nice way to treat an old friend,

[@baileyquinnelly3633]

I know. Why doesn't she recognize him?

[@SimonBoulter]

@@baileyquinnelly3633 Her future's Picard is the Evil one. Not our Picard. He probably never travelled back to the 1800s. If you change the future, good Picard is never there to go back in time to the 1800s since he doesn't exist.

[@baileyquinnelly3633]

@@SimonBoulterI thought Q just changed something in the past. It's why the earth has gone all Nazi Empire on the crew.

[@nickziemer8123]

It would be nice to know what is said since there’s no captions provided on here at the time Of this writing. Interesting to see Picard see Guinan again since they last visited in the 19 century.

[@wakcedout]

This whole scene ignores tng. The hell did the writers on Picard even watch the tng series???? Picard already met an even younger than this version of guinan when.she was hanging.around with mark twain. She would of clearly recognized him and last I remember, elorians have an amazing memory. Would if been better if she had slowly remembered that encounter and asked "now how did you end up in the past this time Jean luc"

[@Artisticmonkey2]

Right like I’m so confused

[@kempiro]

Oh my gawd, really? Like, Q fucking up the timeline isn't enough for you to imagine that this Guinan never met Picard, because the Picard of this timeline is a genocidal fascist? Do you honestly believe no one involved with this series - including every actor who worked on TNG - would have mentioned "Time's Arrow" to the show runners? Why even bother watching if you have *that* little trust to extend toward the show? C'mon, it's freakin' time travel. It's the ultimate retcon. Relax.

[@alexandercurtis4671]

@@kempiro But if that's your rationale, then it stands to reason that the split occurred much earlier than when they went. Let's assume for a moment that Genocide-Picard wiped out the time travelling aliens without bothering to go to the past, the past would then be changed as of the moment Main-Picard was meant to go back in time to meet Guinan but didn't. That's also ignoring all the little ripples from the cast interacting with other people, though I suppose those could've been smoothed out by the time police later on. Given that this is not the end though, I'm just hoping they'll come back and explain it satisfactorily later on. If they pull a that's-not-how-time-travel-works like the Avengers did, I will be disappointed to say the least. Personally, I'm more interested to find out more about what's happening with Q. Is he going the Q equivalent of senile? Is he fatally ill and visiting Picard is just his last hurrah?

[@kempiro]

@@alexandercurtis4671, yeah, I'm waiting for a good explanation, too. And if they don't bring it, I'll be disappointed. I'm just not prepared, at the moment of watching this scene, to crap all over the show runners 'cause they "must not have ever watched TNG!!!1!!"

[@smellfunny1864]

@@kempiro and @Alexander Curtis prepare to be disappointed. I have no faith in the current staff that is working on anything Trek related. They never should have started messing with the past.. After Voyager they should have continued with the story lines that we had. Ds9 was THE place to build off of but no.. we had to go back and change the timeline with the Trek movie. Had to try and make a show that was before Kirk and suddenly wait... a ship named Enterprise before "our" Enterprise.

[@davidb4715]

The fact she doesn't remember him is odd.

[@alcohol-freebeer3642]

She's got some cheek calling Picard old when she's got a couple of hundred years on him at this point at least. I mean, they last met back when Mark Taiwan was about. I know he's aged a bit physically since then, and it looks like she's had significant plastic surgery to alter her appearance, but damn. That's just cold woman.

[@seko1102]

For the people going "She'd know him because they've met previously / she can sense further in the timeline", that's the point. This is meant to make us uneasy because she doesn't know him at all. In earlier timelines where she stays on Earth, it eventually leads to Picard meeting her during time-travel. In this timeline she leaves, so Picard never goes back in time or meets her regularly. Thus, she's not aware of who he is at all. Plus, right after this scene,the show acknowledges that the timeline where she met him happened and was modified so she didn't.

[@landonletterman831]

One caveat to your post Arrows of Time, I believe is the TNG episode? They go back _waaaaay_ before now. She meets him in Mark Twain's day, *long* before she meets him here. Her not recognizing him is either a plot point to be addressed later (or even by the fans with given evidence), or a glaring flaw on behalf of the writer/director

[@demonoftheweb]

You both have great points and it will be intresting to see it all play out. Now saying that I do believe the the Mark Twain event still happened due to the the timeslip event taking place well after. Otherwise there is more that one new junction in the Flow of Time. and the butterfly effect only move from the causing event to current time.

[@ThePanicPuppet]

@@landonletterman831 except if the Picard that doesn't go back in time to see her doesn't exist, then he doesn't go back to see her at all. Which also would e plain why she's more jaded now, having missed that interaction in the 1800s.

[@seko1102]

@@landonletterman831 I think they're treating it like this: The timeline before the point of change has also been affected, because the point where they go back to visit Guinan in Time's Arrow no longer exists. They've essentially broken the paradox, so it no longer exists in any capacity.

[@IanNCC1701]

10 Forward was the section of the ship where the bar was located. It wasn’t just a name she came up with. Holy crap this was fraking dumb

[@jliller]

If this Guinan doesn't know Picard because the events of "Time's Arrow" didn't happen wouldn't that also mean Guinan never experienced the events of "Generations" thus never went into the Nexus thus doesn't have her temporal perception abilities?

[@ryderninja]

I honestly hated this scene but it sounds like that is an ability her entire species possesses anyway.

[@dewforpolitics]

Since this is a different timeline Guinan would not recognize Picard.

[@TheRealRightPrice]

Isn't this before the timeline split though, meaning it's the same?

[@ThePanicPuppet]

@@TheRealRightPrice no, because if the Federation doesn't exist, then Picard doesn't go back to see her in the first place.

[@TheRealRightPrice]

@@ThePanicPuppet But the timeline split hasn't happened yet and won't for another three days, so at this moment in 2024 the "bad" timeline doesn't exist yet.

[@tuckingfenpin]

She is very emotional in these scenes. Classic Guinan is cool as a cucumber, patient, a listener. I think she doesn't recognize him straight away, as she is in a conflicted emotional state - probably from the bar closing and the surrounding ghetto areas being locked down. Upcoming riots usually have an 'air of discourse' before triggering, as well. I wouldn't be surprised to see Picard help her calm her state of mind and attitude which in turn helps her 'return to form' so-to-speak. Then again, maybe what Q changed has to do with Guinan, or affects her in some way - like events have closed her bar, where it used to be *always open*

[@charzanboo9940]

Or more likely bad directing and writing...

[@chrisman1985]

I agreed that the character normally cool and collected. This is not her as we know her. I disagree about the rest.

[@sarahberkner]

Classic Guinan isn't always unemotional, she seemed to show her disdain for Q pretty easily. Also some people settle down as they get older. Edit: apparently she's not actually younger so forget that last part.

[@Minimeister317]

Kind of a weird scene considering they already met in TNG "iIme's Arrow"

[@justathought3141]

Yeah but she displayed time sickness which could indicate that never happened because, hear me out, time displacement was/is/always/never explained. Take your pick

[@WSPetty]

@@justathought3141 she knew who he was when he said his name though 💁‍♂️

[@SimonBoulter]

The timeline has changed in 2024, so her future's Picard is the evil one, General Picard I think it was. So in her future, her Picard never travelled back to meet her in the 1800s. Changing the future changes the past, if someone travels back in time.

[@TheRealRightPrice]

@@SimonBoulter The timeline change/split hasn't happened yet in 2024 though.

[@michaelwilson9557]

@@TheRealRightPrice Picard traveled back from the future, so in this timeline, they never met.

[@timucinharkonnen2699]

10 Forward? Really? No one can tell me there is nothing supernatural going on around Guinan, that is never spoken out loud.

[@LightStrikerQc]

Unless she named the bar on the Enterprise after her old bar?

[@LTC_Tiger]

@@LightStrikerQc It was always explained that "10 Forward" was on Deck 10, at the bow of the Enterprise - see "Starship Mine" (TNG) for an example.

[@timucinharkonnen2699]

@@LightStrikerQc Here we get to the core of my point: she didn't and she couldn't. It was always 10 Forward (now I get The Shining vibes). It's an integral part of the Galaxy class.

[@timucinharkonnen2699]

@@LTC_Tiger Exactly! Thank you.

[@Gunnar001]

It's called dumb writing by lazy hacks who don't know or care about the source material.

[@michaelermcgowaniv]

Is that Sir Patrick’s pittie?

[@user-dn9xp3zm6g]

Picard need to meet lili and zapram cocran

[@jermaineholmes1233]

Wouldn't she remember who Picard is? From the episode involving the time travel aliens?

[@bartlemmons1704]

The only thing that is true star trek that stands out is guinan

[@damianhill4457]

.......sooo this is wrong right away .....as she met him with Mark Twain with enterprise so guinan should remember him as she did before ....

[@KenshiImmortalWolf]

it's been like 150 years sense then, as great as Guinan is he was also much younger the first time and It wasn't the longest meeting in her life. Similarly she could of believed it to be an ancestor given she knew Picard was from a time far ahead of their meeting.

[@chrisatronx]

@@KenshiImmortalWolf I think that's stretching for an answer. I think the most obvious answer is that Kurtzman doesn't know shit about Star Trek, nor do his writing staff. Guinan is a powerful entity who's life is ancient. To say she forgot is downright offensive to the lore and to its fans.

[@DaRealDJ]

@@liamloxley1222 Except even in that situation, she can see through time distortions (not totally unlike the Borg Queen, which you can see in Yesterday's Enterprise) so she should've at least had a feeling that she was supposed to know who he was.

[@GregHafer]

@@liamloxley1222 But they aren't in the "confederacy timeline" because the event that led to the confederacy instead of the federation didn't happen yet. Also, the character themselves are from the normal timeline, not the confederacy timeline.

[@bigbadbomba]

in this timeline the past has been changed from this point onward, so Picard never went back in time to meet her. This version of Guinan has never met him

[@nOT_sURE08]

They fucked this up so bad.

[@emkayusa]

She doesn’t know him? It’s only been 140 years since they first met.

[@TheBrainSquared]

Does anyone remember "Times Arrow" I'm sure the writers room did.

[@955472]

They accounted for it. History changed and Picard never went back in time.

[@oldtwinsna8347]

Absolutely taken into consideration. Just as they did their homework in DS9 by adding corporate mogul Brynner to the newspaper on fighting unionization. Absolutely some of the best writing I've ever seen went on in this episode.

[@ekming751]

Didn’t they met during the 18 century, or is it a Holodeck thing ?

[@DaRealDJ]

Yes they did, Guinan from the future remembered Picard from the 18th century, so she should've remembered him here, particularly when he mentions her species. This is just bad writing.

[@tekcomputers]

The timeline has been altered, "Times Arrow" didn't happen as we know in the other timeline.

[@robsmoviecollection3715]

Lol, but didn't Guinan already look like Whoopi back in the day of Mark Twain?

[@firablazeday7298]

So the TNG episodes Time Arrow didn't count I guess.

[@LightStrikerQc]

I don't understand... She should remember Picard from 1893.

[@poopsanchez6449]

Federation does NOT exist. Thus she doesn't remember him because Time Arrow doesn't happen.

[@thcollegestudent]

Kinda uncomfortable seeing Goldberg replaced like this. The actress is doing a fine enough job but seeing a actress replaced in a show that hasn't shyed away from putting older gentleman on display is kinda....I dunno Sad?

[@Leelz247]

Agreed.

[@mikej9062]

Why a shotgun when she can threaten a Q with force powers. That’s what I want to know.

[@johnrettig1880]

Opening scene of the derelict alley . Looks to be the same that Kirk and Spock run into a Police Officer in the " City on the Edge of Forever " . Just more junk .

[@larryjurkovskis4612]

So Guinan is Younger in the 60s than in the 1800s when she first met Picard? Come on people show some continuity!💪🗽💪🇺🇸✊

[@kagato23]

Her species can chose to age. No reason they can’t choose to not. If anything we might be seeing her “real form” or something closer to it. A harsher outlook on life with less optimism for the future (no time traveling Picard in the 1800’s to help her know it can all work out) might have chosen a younger body, both from a need to be more aggressive and as an expression of anger.

[@shadoman7682]

The writers obviously never watched and understood the double episode of TNG Where Picard goes back in time to 1990 where he first met Guinan and yes that still would have happened as the timeline at this this point not been changed.

[@martindevon3204]

Times Arrow

[@andyphelps3064]

I have a feeling since Q is involved regular timelines dont matter in a sense i could be wrong

[@martindevon3204]

It's a Paradox......like in all good things. Q seems to like causing them

[@HolodeckArcade]

Why doesn't she recognize him from when they went back to 1893 in the Star Trek: The Next Generation episode Time's Arrow? It's like the people making this show never watched any episodes of the old show.

[@michaelwilson9557]

In this case, they got it right. This version of Picard would not have been interested in time travel or meeting with her in the past, so they never did.

[@oldtwinsna8347]

The writers did a brilliant job here. You can find all kinds of nuggets suggesting they did far more homework than many so-called experts would even come close to. I loved how they tied this all together; even the newspaper snippet on Brynner that Dax met not long after in Sept 2024.

[@samuelkem]

Guynan already meet Pickard in the past in New Orleans so how come she does not remember him? Seems the directors didn't do their homework.

[@SimonBoulter]

The timeline has changed in 2024, so her future's Picard is the evil one, General Picard I think it was. So in her future, her Picard never travelled back to meet her in the 1800s. Changing the future changes the past, if someone travels back in time.

[@samuelkem]

@@SimonBoulter good point

[@thethegreenmachine]

I can do without seeing spoilers pop up on my YT page. And you call yourself friendly.

[@gh5902]

Why didn’t she recognise him. They first met 100s of years ago

[@Joecbg100]

Shhhhhhhhh don't think about it, lol

[@oldtwinsna8347]

They never met, that is the whole premise of alternate timelines. Picard in this timeline was a space conquistador, maiming alien species left and right every day on end. He never went to Devidia to go find the mystery of Data's head being found in the future because Data's head was never even there to begin with.

[@tyroneleis2665]

They (CBS) should have had a younger Woopie! Via CGI

[@greevar]

They already met over a century ago in San Francisco. This whole scene makes zero sense. The writers did not do their due diligence.

[@YD-uq5fi]

Nevermind that Guinan actually met Picard in 1893 in 'Time's Arrow'. The writers have zero interest in even maintaining established continuity. Contrast that with Cobra Kai, which had far weaker and seemingly outdated source material to work with, but nonetheless maintains full continuity and is truly a fantastic show. For all the morons claiming that the timeline change means Picard would never have gone back to 1893, then those Aliens would have taken over Earth in 1893, so that timeline HAD to have happened even here.

[@kilimenjiro3753]

Well see, if the timeline changed, then Picard would've never gone back to 1893 in Time's Arrow.

[@YD-uq5fi]

@@kilimenjiro3753 That explanation is insufficient.

[@kilimenjiro3753]

@@YD-uq5fi Sure it is. Certainly fits in the parameters you set in your snarky comment. Come up with a bigger plot hole next time. Anyway, not the first time the Star Trek universe has pulled insufficiently explained time travel shenanigans.

[@Myungbean]

@@YD-uq5fi No, it isn't. The Federation needs to exist for the events of Time's Arrow to occur. If Q alters an event far enough back in Earth's history that the Federation doesn't exist, then Picard never goes back in time, and thus never meets Guinan in San Francisco, hence why she doesn't recognize Picard.

[@LuisRomero-nf5bh]

@@YD-uq5fi It isn't tho because it explains why Guinan doesn't know Picard perfectly. Time's arrow never happened because the Federation never existed.

[@freespeechisdead1565]

Grabs popcorn, waits to see which comments point out Alex Kurtzman's horrendous writing and lack of knowledge of the series and lore, and which comments go to great lengths to explain away his incompetence.

[@kempiro]

No one needs to go to great lengths. It's a multiple universe/time travel plot. It's right there in the premise.

[@freespeechisdead1565]

@@kempiro Well it's awesome that you don't think anyone has to go to great lengths to explain away his incompetence. You're one of Kurtzman's fans right? That's a shame.

[@kempiro]

@@freespeechisdead1565, I don't give a flunk about Kurtsman. I'm just immensely peeved by fools going to war over the credibility/justification of time travel plots.

[@freespeechisdead1565]

@@kempiro You think this is war? You get ruffled too easily. This is just a Star Trek fan pointing out how bad the writing is currently. Are you a Star Wars fan? It would be like me as a writer missing the fact that Luke got his hand cut off in The Empire Strikes Back and writing a scene where he caresses someone's face with his original hand. It wouldn't be a war to point out that I must have never watched a Star Wars movie. But, I'm guessing you think this is a war too. You're right tho, lots of fools out there who go to war over nothing.

[@kempiro]

@@freespeechisdead1565, well, if there were an immortal entity that messed with the timeline, then Luke having his flesh and blood hand back would be, narratively speaking, fair game. All depends on just one thing: in the end, was it a good story? I'll wait to find out.

[@YD-uq5fi]

That's it! FIRE the ST : Picard writers, and replace them with the Cobra Kai writers. It will make all the difference in the world!!

[@seskalarafey9285]

Young Guinan? I am okay with that.

[@The_Mighty_Fiction]

I doubt Whoopi Goldberg is.

[@poopsanchez6449]

@@The_Mighty_Fiction She quite literally already showedu p.

[@The_Mighty_Fiction]

@@poopsanchez6449 Yes, and then was quite literally written promptly the fuck out for this chick and her bag of hardass cliches.

[@v.e.7159]

So where is Malcolm McDowell and is Kirk lurking his ass around someplace ?

[@CoolGobyFish]

They should bring Shatner back for an episode

[@luckyno888]

What is this -- The Matrix?

[@enikata7349]

So Guinan is younger in 2024 than she was in 1893... okay?

[@mariuszmiroslaw2290]

well the 19th century was a tough time 😅

[@enikata7349]

@@mariuszmiroslaw2290 Ha!🤣

[@dbeane43]

The notion that Picard and Guinan didn't meet in the 1800's because alt future... Sure, okay. But by that rationale when they inevitably meet again in the 24th century at the end of this season she shouldn't remember meeting Picard in 2024 because that alt future technically never happened. But you know she will. And if you tell me "But Picard fixed the timeline so its part of history" well then at the end she should remember meeting him twice. They get my respect if they do go that route. Either way you slice it it doesn't make sense. And you can't just wave that all away with "well that's time travel. It doesn't make sense." The truth is they didn't want to confuse a new audience with anything from that episode so they're leaving it out. At that point why not do something besides a time travel story which has been done way too many times anyway?

[@Dowlphin]

We probably need to consider the whole timeline there 'Q-nonsense'. the punk rocker suggests it is the same one that Kirk traveled to, but it cannot be, but maybe Q put him there as a little in-joke.

[@adamo2125]

The thing is, they keep playing the TNG music in every fucking scene and it has added zero value to making it appear more Star Trek.

[@JonnySublime]

Great example of how all Black people are not the same.

[@feathersigil2048]

Why are the writers incapable of using Memory Alpha to look up things about Star Trek, like what 10 Forward means? (Guinan didn't name the place; that's where it is on the ship!) Why isn't Guinan played by Whoppi Goldberg here? She played Guinan when Guinan was on Earth in Mark Twain's time. Can El-Aurians reverse their aging at will too? Why is Picard openly wearing his combadge, a shiny and pretty piece of centuries-too-advanced technology? Did the writers think we'd forget who Picard is without it? Why didn't Guinan immediately sense the other timeline and sense it even more keenly when Picard, a man she's supposed to know at this time in her life by now (or has she travelled through time to different points in Earth's history?)? Why does she throw up when she does start to sense the changes in time? She's already been alive for centuries. "Time sickness"? She never had that in Yesterday's Enterprise or Time's Arrow. Why is she so worked up over one species being stupid when she's centuries old and knows about civilizations far better (Vulcans) and far worse (Borg)? (We all know why: because the writers are shit and they can't write a positive message that most people know to be true without someone weeping and yelling over it)

[@YD-uq5fi]

ST Picard : Take 9/10 content from the 80s/90s and make a 2/10 show today. Cobra Kai : Take 4/10 content from the 80s and make a 9/10 show today. FIRE the ST : Picard writers immediately and bring in the Cobra Kai writers. NOW!! Actress Tamlyn Tomita acts on both shows, so she actually knows both teams.

[@THEC.O.VISIT.]

They fucked this scene up so bad. Where is the continuity? Why is she absolutely nothing like Guinan? She should at least have some strange feeling about Picard. Just when I think this can't be any worse it just keeps surprising me. 🙈

[@chrisatronx]

Yesterday's Enterprise

[@THEC.O.VISIT.]

@@chrisatronx Yes, so according to that episode Guinan should have at the very least felt something familiar about Picard.

[@FreeSpirit47]

I love this version of Guinan! It's probably easier for makeup artists, too, to make her look attractive. The girl is already so attractive & has GORGEOUS hair!

[@BOBMAN1980]

This is in no way Guinan. This is simply "Black Woman Bartender in the late 20th cent."--basically made up of whatever Picard's producers someone would act like, without all that nuance and strong character that someone like Whoopi Goldberg brought to the role.

[@FreeSpirit47]

@@BOBMAN1980 Except, the person playing Guinan in this episode of Picard doesn't have an antisemitic point of view & she has much more attractive hair than Whoopi. Actresses/actors often bring facets of themselves into the characters they play. Not always, yet, often. I feel compassion for Whoopi, she really messed up when she made the antisemitic statement. I believe that all people say things that get them in trouble or it comes back to bite them. The difference is that Whoopi is a celebrity & said it on a widely viewed program. I'm sure that she is a fun, nice person who made a big mistake.

[@BOBMAN1980]

@@FreeSpirit47 FFS You ARE messed up. Whoopi didn't make an "antisemtic statement"; she merely said that the Holocaust shows how shitty humanity can be. You're looking for reasons to get butthurt--over a gaff, at worst--so you can justify liking this actress because she has "more attractive hair", and the crappy writing that brings this show to life.

[@UltraMAGAKing2024]

Doesn't make sense, Guinan looked the same when she was standing next to Mark Twain. Gosh this show just fucks continuity to DEATH.

[@judgedredd2039]

Well Whoopi doesn't look the same as she did in the Mark Twain Episode or for STNG for that matter, so ether way Guinan was going to throw things off one way or anther.

[@UltraMAGAKing2024]

@@judgedredd2039 they could have used Whoopie still. This was not necessary.

[@judgedredd2039]

@@UltraMAGAKing2024 They could have but still would have the issue of Guinan looking way older then she did in the Mark Twain Episode and In STNG which would have the same effect as having a different Actress play her where it looks way out of place.

[@UltraMAGAKing2024]

@@judgedredd2039 but according to the episode where she came back she can make herself appear older if she wants to... this show makes no sense.

[@judgedredd2039]

@@UltraMAGAKing2024 I took that as she can control how fast she ages not that she can make her self look younger if she wanted to which she would have to look as she did in STTNG if she looked like her older self in 2024

[@mikeabbitt8309]

From the comments already here, I’m glad this HUGE plot hole/ continuity mistake has not gone unnoticed.

[@SimonBoulter]

Not a plot hole. Her future's Picard is the Evil one. Not our Picard. He probably never travelled back to the 1800s. If you change the future, good Picard is never there to go back in time to the 1800s since he doesn't exist.

[@mikeabbitt8309]

@@SimonBoulter That would indicate that the divergence has already taken place. From the story line, at the point Picard meets with Guinan, the divergence is still three days in the future.

[@SimonBoulter]

@@mikeabbitt8309 I thought what they indicated was that the timeline change hadnt set yet? So there's a certain amount of time since the change they have to undo it. The future has already changed though as Picard just came from the Confederacy future, so how can the future have been changed if the divergence hasn't happened yet. I dunno, Star trek get all loosey goosey with the timey wimey stuff. I'm just going with what seems to be the explanation the show is indicating. Just my theory. I don't think its a plot hole.

[@michaelwilson9557]

@@SimonBoulter it's because Picard was inserted into the timeline where the divergence already happened, then he decided to time travel. So they never met.

[@robertperry8392]

I watched this scene and I wondered why Guinan looks younger in 2024 than she did in 1893. I realize it's a different actress. Whoopie Goldberg was 37 when Time's Arrow aired. The actress playing Guinan in this scene is 29 and it's 131 years later. Wouldn't it have made sense to hire an actress about the same age as Whoopie was back then?

[@kevinburch8498]

the people who wrote this script never watched STNG

[@oldtwinsna8347]

Hell, they did a solid job here. Casting isn't easy man. If they wanted to do something deliberate to mess with the audience they would've just hired someone white or asian to play the role.

[@andyphelps3064]

Everyone talking about timelines and everything else have forgotten that Q is involved in all of this, when Q is involved rules tend to get broken my point is that this isnt your run of the mill time travel there might be more reality bending things going on, or im wrong and the writers suck we will find out

[@simonmurphy7169]

So In Samuel Clemence’s time Guinan is whoopi Goldberg and yet in more modern time she is a different actor…….. makes sense to me 🤦🏼‍♂️

[@harleyhirst7790]

That's because it's two different universes.

[@Littlepip411]

1992 Whoopi Goldberg was unfortunately not able to film these scenes 🙄

[@simonmurphy7169]

@@Littlepip411 fair point, however it just goes to show the lack of continuity they are using in Picard as a series……

[@HHh-qe2ch]

That last "old man" was such an awkward line, like it was an after thought. How fitting for these writers.

[@sarahberkner]

She does a great job playing Guinan except Whoopi Goldberg was never quite that pretty. Sorry. But the voice is pretty spot-on.

[@RionE23]

Once again … they screw with Star Trek continuity because the people making the show are not true Star Trek fans. She should have recognized him. 😞 Star Trek really has been dead for a long time and now it’s just a rotting zombie corpse.

[@Templar1ca]

@@liamloxley1222 Back to the Future 2 makes for a good example. Although I doubt the Confederation didn't come about because of a sports almanac.

[@stryletz]

@@liamloxley1222 actually, according to the Queen the temporal convergence which led to The Confederation hasn't happened yet. That's why they're in that time, to try and stop it. So, the events of Time's Arrow did happen in this timeline and she should recognize him.

[@stryletz]

@anti-anti-intellectual which hasn't happened yet from their current temporal perspective. They're in the correct timeline now.

[@Yuzral]

Not necessarily - the events of "Time's Arrow" require the 'Federation' future to be dominant. Since at this point we're still heading for the 'Confederation' future, Picard won't go back and so Guinan hasn't met him in 19th century San Fransisco. Thus she doesn't recognise him.

[@ryanruttan7480]

I agree with you, current ST sucks balls and is being produced by 2-3 different companies. Thankfully, there's always the Orville.

[@johnfic4751]

Too bad they just de-age Whoopie Goldberg. Nothing against this actress. She could have just played the watcher.

[@michaelbay3038]

The federation does not exist in this time line. so Picard never went back to meet her in the past. Are we all clear now? Good.

[@daaronwells]

That's not Guinan.

[@TheRealRightPrice]

It's kind of sad to me how frail Picard has become, but just physical age but emotionally and in personality. When she points the shotgun at him and his mouth hangs open like that he doesn't come across as the legendary admiral Picard but as just a weak and helpless old man, and that's sad to see.

[@landonletterman831]

Especially when you know he was aware of the gun she kept behind the bar in 10-Forward...... ....then again, perhaps he didn't? I'm sure it has come up in _somebody's_ report!

[@shadoman7682]

@@landonletterman831 They should have replaced him with a younger actor when he got a bright shiny new android body at the end of the last series. He just seems this pathetic useless old man now.

[@KenshiImmortalWolf]

Everyone's going to give this scene shit for her not recognizing picard right away. A reminder. They met over 150 years ago. This is a point in Guinan's life where she has very much become jaded given the fact she is closing her bar. Plus Remember in Episode one. "I've never seen you look like this before. No, wait, I take that back, I have seen you look like this, exactly once." Guinan is a powerful woman but she isn't omnipotent with total recall of everything in her life on a dime. She still has to focus.

[@KenshiImmortalWolf]

@@liamloxley1222 Except that she later goes on to act like she always knew him when he gives his name. Which suggests she does still remember Picard. Also her species have, on multiple occasions, recognized when they are in or affected by alternative timelines. Meaning that the entire Confederation point is moot.

[@silverscion2144]

I personally have a hard time believing she wouldn't sense that something is wrong after talking to Picard for a few seconds. Given what we know of her temporal awareness, I would expect her to retain some memory of the events that occurred prior to the timeline divergence, which apparently has not occurred yet since that's what they're trying to stop. I'm fine with presenting her as being more jaded at this point in her life, but I think she would have some desire to at least hear him out, especially after experiencing the time-sickness that happens right after this part.

[@KenshiImmortalWolf]

@@jamestopoleski9255 pretty sure that the entire episode of yesterday's enterprise was 2 days tops in universe but i may be forgetting some of the in betweeny scenes that show the time laps.

[@KenshiImmortalWolf]

@@silverscion2144 well this Is before the timeline diverged to begin with and Technically while the ship they came from is a confederation ship Picard and CO are themselves from the Federation or Correct timeline.

[@silverscion2144]

@@KenshiImmortalWolf That is fair. I just would've liked to see some acknowledgement of the paradox in their conversation. Even a throwaway line from Picard saying something like "I had hoped you would have some memory of our last meeting, but I suppose that was wishful thinking given what's happened." Just something that acknowledges the different theories of what Guinan should or shouldn't be aware of at this point. I know temporal mechanics is a lot more straightforward for them, but it's still theoretical for us, especially when you throw in an anomaly-sensing alien whose abilities have never fully been explained.

[@Castlecoke]

If she didn't remember him that means it's an entire different universe. 🤨

[@shanenolan8252]

How can that possibly be her ?

[@Captain_Brown_Beard]

Oh it gets worse. She doesnt even know who he is lol

[@crzrck]

All the CGI in the world is not going to make the New and improved super sized Whoopie look younger

[@75jedly]

Long story short; Capt Picard doesn't exist in this timeline. And General Picard never traveled back to the 1800s to meet her and Clemens. Therefore, this Guinan doesn't know Picard.

[@shanenolan8252]

@@Captain_Brown_Beard yes i mean she has meet him before at thos point and she was older , ( times arrow ) and at some point she has to go home to become a refugee by generations timeline. ( getting to the delta quadrant and back again takes time ) Voyager was practically a miracle. 75 years one way .

[@Captain_Brown_Beard]

@@75jedly Oh yeah youre right. That makes sense

[@got2kittys]

Blow a hole in your continuity with that writing? Who needs a Winchester?

[@frontline2010]

As a Black Star Trek fan all I can say is this is some bull s@#t!!!!! Hollywood truly don't care about Black people or what we truly think or feel. WE DON"T WANT TO SEE ANOTHER ANGRY BLACK WOMAN TROPE!!!! For the love of God and my people just stop already!! like who is this for? really?

[@boylan835]

This is a plot hole

[@expfighter5112]

Sloppy writing by the woke star trek writers!