Pilots Fight DEADLY Mistake On Routine Flight!

[@pilot-debrief]

Yes, I know I said Greensboro instead of Greenville. I misspoke. I live in Charlotte and am well aware of the difference between the two. I didn’t realize this would be one of the most talked about parts of the video. 🤷‍♂️ Thanks for watching even though I make mistakes sometimes.

[@rtbrtb_dutchy4183]

As pilots, we are always right, even when we are wrong. 😜

[@billfraser9731]

We listen to every word!

[@tootallsvlog103]

Nah, no problem. I wish that was the extent of my mistakes. The results would be the same regardless of the airport.

[@anthonysteve1400]

I also live in CLT, used to drive past back side of the airport to get to work off of Billy Graham and remember well seeing the smoke from this. Always just thought it was overweight and unbalanced, never knew about the maintenance issues and the way outdated weight charts…. great informative videos!

[@davidrobertson2826]

They’re just haters, some people really get off on pointing out/correcting other people’s mistakes - I would ignore. Cheers from Spartanburg, hope you had a great Thanksgiving!

[@utlaw72]

As a non-current pilot (I haven’t flown in 30 years), I still find your videos fascinating. They are always clear and crisp, and tell the stories in a compelling way. You are an excellent communicator. Keep up the good work. Thanks.

[@pilot-debrief]

Thank you very much. I love getting comments like this!

[@chateaupig826]

I'm a passenger and it's scary to think the Main safety authority didn't revoke the airlines ability to continue operating without due diligence What was the reason ? Envelopes full of cash ? Surely not .

[@KCLIBURN-mj9qx]

I couldn't agree more, his style is calm, cool and matter of factly while breaking it all down. You can tell by his narrative and experience level the man is very knowledgeable about safety. His videos have me hooked as well. Keep 'em coming, Hoover!

[@MarksmansBeast2]

why did you stop flying?

[@utlaw72]

@@MarksmansBeast2 Babies and cost. Didn’t have the time or money to stay current.

[@EastTNflyer]

I flew the 1900D for Air Midwest (both seats) and knew Katie very well. The plane always had an aft CG when fully loaded, but was never uncontrollable. When I was on it from 1999-2002, we used “summer” and “winter” weights. It was a great plane to fly and had lots of power.

[@pilot-debrief]

Thanks for sharing and I'm sorry for your loss. This was a terribly tragic event.

[@spvillano]

I remember a news blurb about the average pax weight being bumped up. Now, I know why. I'd be nice to see regulations written in ink by proactive actions, rather than seeing them written in blood.

[@kevinbaker2054]

Where was your domicile?

[@jyellowhammer]

Sir, can you recall what the passenger weights used were for the summer and winter?

[@kevinbaker2054]

@@jyellowhammer think fall/winter weights was 185 and spring/summer weight was 160...or there abouts.

[@ElementofKindness]

Gotta love how the FAA didn't bother to revise weight calculations since the 30s. Have you seen the majority of Americans? 175 pounds average is an absolute joke.

[@donchristie420]

Barnum and Bailey circus “fat lady”was 325 pounds, I saw at least 3 people coming into gas station this morning over that

[@carlchong7592]

A lotta weight is in the aft section too.

[@Melanie16040]

@@donchristie420 I am surprised only 3

[@avalanche3084]

​@@donchristie420No you didn't, liar.

[@donchristie420]

@@avalanche3084 dude, the place sells donuts😳

[@scarpia519]

I am a retired engineer with many years of aerospace/aviation avionics experience plus I hold SEL Private, Commercial, CFI and Instrument ratings. My career included being a member of the faculty of an engineering college where I taught mathematics and physics. Your presentations are GRADE-A+.

[@TerryManlove1]

Sweet and smart compliment

[@pilatus421]

I used to work for Mesaba Airlines back in the early 2000 and there were many instances when our Saab 340 where so over weight that the nose gear could barely steer the aircraft because it was so tail heavy but because they still used the old averages it was "on paper" with in CG limits. Scary times.

[@Planemaster1230]

I Can only imagine how close we came to another event like this one. Frankly it’s horrifying

[@superwag634]

I flew on a Saab 340 twice a week and always wondered the same. As an engineer, i could figure out a simple load cell or strain gauge measurement device which would measure aircraft loadings instantly and even give weight distribution CG numbers. Why this isnt used everywhere to me only suggests that they know theyre flying overweight.

[@Mattribute]

Sitting on the tail stand! One time I remember waiting to push a Saab out of DTW and it came off the tailstand and lifted the Lektro up into the air. The nose was floating and the poor recently downgraded AVRO captain was like WTF? The FO knew what to do, which was use #2 engine thrust to push the nose down, so we could jam in the steel tailstand, then pull bags. Later I flew the Saab but by then the weights had been raised so we were never so bad off.

[@anonnymowse]

I was a passenger in a Saab 340 when the pilot came back to reassign seats and move some heavy carryons. I was not happy to fly in a plane that was so susceptible to weight distribution.

[@jimmycline4778]

I picked a 400# 6 foot 6 guy up doing Lyft , I could feel my new Corolla steering weird on the freeway! Weight makes a big difference !

[@mikoto7693]

Absolutely, even on the ground in a car. You see I usually drive alone with minimal baggage. Usually just my handbag. But on occasion I drive my parents to the airport to save them the taxi fare and hassle. And believe me, I absolutely do feel the difference two additional adults plus two hefty suitcases and carry on bags makes to handling the car. It affects everything from how much accelerator power to use, how much braking power and even how the car turns. I most definitely feel the engine working much harder when driving uphill with everything aboard. It’s totally safe though, it never takes long for the driver to adjust to the new handling. It’s just noticeable. I can only imagine how much more it would affect a pilot flying a small airplane.

[@atticstattic]

I commend you for piloting that Corolla safely!

[@Dxn6alc03Belod7m1o]

​@@mikoto7693 - Same as you, I usually drive alone now but in an old, sturdy SUV. Small cars give me the willies due to some of the things you mentioned and how bad accidents are with larger vehicles. Being a worrier, I carry various packs & containers of tools, supplies, change of clothes and boots, warm wear, food, water, etc.--all covered by blankets and a non-stretchy cargo net for both deterrent and safety. I've balanced it well enough that I don't feel any items shift when I accelerate or turn corners--though I do not speed. Some people think it's "too much effort" but after (all not-at-fault) the accidents I've been in and worse, the ones seen here on YT, nothing to me is "too much effort" since people are not even looking where they're driving because they got a message or are watching a video! Going on a plane now is just out of the question for me. Esp. now that narcissism seems to be the norm and egos are getting many people killed.

[@disellin4871]

The only time the FAA makes changes is when they have a crash. They're not proactive, they're reactive.

[@None-zc5vg]

They're inactive

[@dickbeale9731]

You are 100% correct.

[@sauce1232]

FAA is ran by humans and humans learn from mistakes sometimes. If not everything would be perfect.

[@DrStoneDog]

Go smoke your goddamn messiah’s weed.

[@got2fly799]

I retired from a 35 year career in part 121, and flew a Gulfstream G-IV under part 135 for 17 months. I quit because of a parallel situation highlighted in this video. Many part 135 outfits are operating a "floating fleet" these days, meaning the airplane doesn't hit home base (company maintenance) unless the schedule just happens to take them through the home base or the airplane needs a major inspection. The result is that most of the maintenance is done with contractors who don't know the airplane. For pilots, the advantage to being part of this kind of organization is that we can live wherever we want ant the company will pay for a ticket to wherever the airplane happens to be when it is time to go to work, and will buy us a ticket home when it is time for our days off. The big disadvantage of this setup is that contractors are expensive and they don't know the airplane. The G-IV's I was flying were 20-30 years old. The age isn't a problem as long as they get the TLC they need. But they don't. The company wants to keep the airplane moving because they've sold the next charter and don't want to cancel. I've had contractors say to me, "They're telling me to sign it off, but I know it isn't fixed". I was really quite happy with every aspect of the job except the substandard maintenance. This video clearly illustrates the danger involved in using mostly contractors for maintenance, and when you throw in a management that puts pressure upon them to sign off the maintenance, you've got an accident waiting to happen. They didn't listen to me, so I quit.

[@Dxn6alc03Belod7m1o]

Good for you! This video just illustrates again why this former air traveller will only travel (sparingly) by car, driving myself--and only in off hours. I'm even thinking about wearing a skateboard or ski helmet bec. of all of the insane accidents I've seen due to people driving but not looking at the road bec. they're on their damned PHONES! Worst invention EVER!

[@lynnpreuninger5050]

I worked for a major airline for 30yrs, we always used 200lb for each passenger weight.

[@steven-nb6rt]

Americans are way over weight...They don't do anything physical anymore...

[@jasonbender2459]

Everyone should have to weigh in with the numbers shown to all with a 2' tall led display and weights over 200 accompanied with tuba music.

[@danglin69]

@@jasonbender2459 Now thats effin funny!!

[@jjk2one]

Weight and Balance: Extreme heat can affect weight and balance calculations

[@jimhaney6384]

​@@jasonbender2459 I feel like we should put everyone's picture up on a massive screen. Age, Height and Weight. If you are in healthy range you get a 'ding' with a thumbs up. Bet this would either encourage people to not be a fat-mass, or might contribute to big bois/baes staying home 😂

[@dazgodbold]

This is one of those tragedies where the pilots were conforming to all the right procedures at the time, but factors outside of their control let them down. Very sad.

[@carmelpule8493]

I do not agree with you. If the pilot claims that he has all the final responsibilities then he should shoulder it. The first mistake of the pilot was to use the "average weight" of a passenger and not the "real weight", and that is very foolish in a small aircraft. Then there are other higher sensitivities a good pilot should feel for before he takes things for granted. Since the pilot did not know the exact location of the centre of gravity, then he would not know the RATE OF CHANGE AT WHICH IT WASW GOING TO PITCH UP. Now final pitching angle is two integrals AFTER the pilot applies his stick input, and that means a relatively long delay. If a pilot does not know the CG location , he should not apply the " third rate of change of the final pitching angle as liberal and as freely as if he knew the aircraft, for he does not . Aa soon as a pilot is at flying speed, then, applying the stick decide THE RATE OF CHANGE of the nose and that early space time function, at rotation, THE PILOT WOULD KNOW WHERE THE CG is, setting the personality of the aircraft, At that early moment, the pilot should have eased the stick forward, and not let the stick motion decide the high rate of change HE INPUTED to be sequentially integrated , from, stick movement integrated to, acceleration of pitch, then, rate of change of pitch, and then the final integral to achieve the final pitch. There was ample delay till the final pitch angle was gained, and that was too late, The pilot should have noticed the sensitivity of the stick application, and those were bells to ease on that stick, It was the lack of sensitivity of the pilot to filter our the information that was so clearly presented . With a tricycle undercarriage, if the main wheels are relatively back, then the nose will be heavy, and the pilot would not know of the CG related to the Cl, but at flying speed as soon as the pilot applies the stick to rotate................. there and then, bang, he got all the information of the early important state of the aircraft............and the pilot should react there and then, and not miss the first integral of his stick motion. A pilot should take a course in mathematics and state control system to be able to recognise how the aircraft whispers and talks to him due to the higher rate of changes that launch themselves before any control system "accelerates", then gains "velocity" and then gains "location of final position" which in this case was " final pitch angle", The pilot was asleep to what was happening before the pitch started to accelerate, and that is when the pilot, or co- pilot should have reacted, and not delay two integrals where the pitch gained too high an angle . Those " stabilons", and ." other extensions" at the tail of that aircraft should have been shining lights and ringing bells of the pitching behaviour ( higher rates of changes) of that long tailed aircraft. The pilot behaved as a young naïve fighter pilot who had an aircraft crossing obliquely in front of him and tried to hit the target by shooting at the enemy, while the enemy was in his cross hairs. Many young pilots died because they did not know about that what state they applied now, needs three or two integrals to the final reaction, and addressing a mistake by noting the final location after a delayed integrals is just too late and that sort of timed feedback, it will cause oscillation anyway. Please read about PID control system and even one which has acceleration feedback and not just Integral, position and derivative states. Many pilots are not sensitive enough to the initiation rate of a function and that is what normally kills a pilot. .

[@winstonchurchill3597]

What are you smoking?@@carmelpule8493

[@Bpg5012trick]

​@@carmelpule8493 Mr Microsoft Armchair Pilot, you trolls don't put out rubbish, always Putting out about a thousand words of crap, trying to look like you know, what your babbling about. Mr Microsoft Arm Chair Pilot, the fault was down to bad maintenance of the plane. 🥴🤪🤡💯😂😂

[@chateaupig826]

​@carmelpule8493 they'd just completed 6 successful flights on it . How on earth could they have known this one would be the final one

[@railroad9000]

The crappy maintenance crew basically killed the 21 people!

[@eartha911]

This one hit home for me. I was an AA flight attendant based in Boston, and took this flight home to GSP quite often. These planes are great, and I probably had these guys at the helm at some point. So sad..... Thanks for your great channel.

[@jamesbarca7229]

The inspector should have been charged with criminal negligence.

[@Adam1nToronto]

Those numbers would've had me worried. Using averages for passenger and bag weights should be fine to get you into the ballpark. But when those ballpark figures tell you that you're at 99.76% capacity, it should be a warning sign that it's time to use the actual weights instead. The chart at 9:45 should include an orange area within the SAFE area representing weights that should be confirmed with actual measurement. A margin of some reasonable amount, say 5% or so.

[@justforever96]

And like what, make every passenger get onto a scale before boarding the plane and calculate their total weight? But only on rare occasions , when the plane is almost full, so you never know if it takes two or four hours to board the plane and depart...I'm sure that wouldn't be at all inconvenient for boarding or flight planning. And what is you find up with a total that is 101% of maximum weight, you choose a passenger at random and say "yeah sorry, you can't board, fuck you"?

[@WallyAMV]

​@@justforever96yes, to everything you just said, if in doubt weigh them and if you're overloaded you offload pax or baggage to get yourself within safe limits. If you don't want to weigh them then err on the side of caution and offload some baggage till the next flight. Are you seriously suggesting that it's better to conduct the flight knowing you're right on the limits of what the Aircraft can safely handle?!

[@knrdvmmlbkkn]

@@justforever96"make every passenger (...) is almost full" Preferably on any and all flights.

[@robinhillyard6187]

Every passenger has to stand on the top step of stairs or the lip of the jetway, for a bigger plane. They could be weighed at that point without other passengers having to see the weights. Only really necessary for full flights.

[@mikoto7693]

I was thinking along those lines myself. I would have been nervous about being so close to the upper weight limit. Also, any pilots reading this-pay attention if the ramper is concerned about luggage weight. We sling them a lot and get a pretty good feel for the weight of such things.

[@chrisUSA]

Excellent analysis and commentary as always. I learn so much from you. Tragically, 21 killed in this mishap is a reminder that one has to be so careful with everything.

[@friedchicken1]

I work in maintenance and I take balance and weight very seriously when it comes to installing and or removing modifications, components, equipment, ecc. This stuff is no joke! Keep up the great work with your channel :D

[@pilot-debrief]

Thanks for sharing!

[@57Jimmy]

I hope that every aircraft maintenance person has the same work ethic as you!👍🇨🇦

[@duncandmcgrath6290]

I work in maintenance as a contractor. There are times when some AME's or A&P's stray pretty far from the AMM . A few times I've found out that the operator did a COC and it was approved. The manufacturers publications are the Bible till an operator has them amended to suit.

[@treatitlikeaboardgame3508]

@@duncandmcgrath6290 Would you mind explaining the Acronyms? I'm an aviation enthusiast, but you still need to dumb down some of the lingo for me. I'd love to know the point of your comment. Thank you

[@MountainMan.]

I'm glad you take your maintenance seriously. It is literally a matter of life or death.

[@F1fan007]

Excellent video! Very interesting. The FAA raising average weight to 195 lbs was probably a good idea back in 2003, but they better review that again now. Most of the people we see in public are well over 200 lbs. We see lots of people that are at least 250 lbs and many that are beyond 300. Average height is going up and the average belly is getting massive. I hope the FAA updates their average weights before another accident like this happens again

[@oooBASTIooo]

Especially on small planes you shouldn't work with averages at all... I hope they use scales.

[@ThePixelize]

@@oooBASTIooo Exactly! Given the small number of PAX and the large number of aircraft movement, there is a much higher chance for these to significantly deviate from the calculated averages ... what if you happen to have a large family with lots of heavy baggage aboard?

[@jugheadjones5458]

If there weren’t any criminal charges there should have been or at least lawsuits. Pure negligence by the airline AND the FAA. Disgusting and tragic.

[@AustinDeadman]

I’m a student pilot, and your analyses have been quite insightful to me. Thank you for your continued work 🙏🙏

[@pilot-debrief]

Great to hear!

[@rextuller3498]

watching this guy as a SP is just expanding my awareness its awesome

[@mdaniels6311]

Me too. I been a SIM fan for years and now have the means to do my PPL. It's been my dream to fly since I was playing SIM games ages about 10. What I learnt is you absolutely must respect the sky, must respect the danger and take it very seriously. It's not just your life on the line, but those in your plane and those on the ground. I notice so many crashes seem to be where pilots are arrogant and don't respect what they're doing. I will always do what I can to plan everything. Sure, we all make mistakes but I'm sure it will never be because of arrogance or my disrespect of the sky.

[@omeadsedghian3345]

Watching post accident debriefs while working on PPL was like torture. Shouldn’t be thinking about all the things that can kill you while training. Love them now tho 😂

[@Roybwatchin]

So, when the inspector told the two mechanics how to adjust the the elevator cables and then left, surely it was still his responsibility to check the elevator function after the adjustment, right? Even if it wasn't his responsibility, surely someone in the stinking hangar would have to check the elevator functions after an adjustment was made? I can't believe what went on back then, and probably don't want to know what goes on today in those "maintenance" hangars. SMH

[@pilot-debrief]

Part of the problem is that you can't see the limited range of motion of the elevator when you are visually inspecting it from the ground (at least that's what the NTSB said)

[@Roybwatchin]

Bingo, that's what I was imagining. I have never worked aircraft maintenance, but, I have worked for a large tier one aerospace supplier for 37 years and I figured there must be a gauge or some other way to verify the elevator travels after an adjustment. Even just some marks on the fuselage for a quick visual check? There has to be something they can check on the ground and not just hope it's right! @@markbushong4826

[@adotintheshark4848]

you'd think someone has to sign off on the work. That's normally how tech orders are handled.

[@adotintheshark4848]

but who finally signs off? They should be the final inspectors and assume responsibility.@@markbushong4826

[@stoldrag85]

I flew 1900's back then too. I'll bet there were more accidents waiting to happen then we'll ever know.

[@Lucypetuniaggm]

I was flying from Minneapolis to Rhinelander WI on what most would call a puddle-jumper. We had boarded & were seated when someone came on carrying one of several heavy boxes that turned out to be coins headed for a casino. They asked the pilots what the plane’s weight limit was. One pilot turned to the other & asked if he knew. He replied that he didn’t know, but felt sure the coins wouldn’t be a problem. That made me a bit uncomfortable. They proceeded to place the boxes under seats throughout the plane, asking some passengers to change seats to properly distribute the weight. The flight was fine, but that was the first I’d heard about the importance of weight & weight distribution. I’ve since seen a couple of videos about crashes caused by weight issues…one of which was a cargo plane where those loading the cargo had failed to strap down a heavy piece of equipment that ended up sliding during the flight & caused the plane to crash. Very tragic.

[@williamhaggerson5490]

I live in Charlotte and remember that flight/crash well. It hit the US Airways maintenance facility just east of runway 18R (now 18C) and south of the now decommissioned runway 5-23.

[@kevinfoley8105]

You have become my favorite post accident analyst. You treat every incident with respect and show restraint in criticism even in the most egregious cases you've reviewed. Maybe one day you could do a review of Pinnacles Flight 3701 from 2004, would love to hear your thoughts on it.

[@johnvender]

One of the things contributing was the weight of the plane, people on it and their baggage and the fuel. I used to drive relatively large trucks and some had gear on them that showed GVM (gross vehicle mass) on the dash so the driver knew how heavy the loaded rig is. Is it possible to build something like this into the landing gear so the pilots have accurate weight rather than a result of a calculation? If it's not too impractical has it been done? I imagine this could also give accurate center of gravity.

[@auroraRealms]

This is the best thing about this I have heard. I write software, and I am sure the software guys would be paranoid about offering something like this for aircraft. However, Maybe we could pioneer something like this built into the landing gear. If there is any question as to it's accruracy, it could be labled as expermimental, and used only for gathering data in it's begining stages. And then, once officaly implemented, it could intialy weigh the plane with know parameters, like fuel and flight crew weight, to verify its readings are accurate. If the readings are in acceptable margin of error, it could be trusted to give actual weight and ballance. And last but not least, we could start testing today, in the RC genre, where the stakes are not as high.

[@rakninja]

@@auroraRealms to be honest, i'd want to manually calculate it every time, but i feel like i could at least rely on such a system to let me know when there's an imbalance in the weight. i'm no flyboy, but i was a cavalry scout. land navigation was one of our high-priority skills. doing the land nav test at fort knox, we did two runs. one manual, one with GPS. in truth, i did two manual runs, because even after calibration, my GPS unit was a good 500 meters off. that is when i learned the lesson of never to blindly trust technology when lives are on the line. now, i will not argue that GPS tech has come a long way since 2003, there's still a nonzero chance the device is bugging out, or is being fed wrong info by an enemy satellite, or any one of a host of problems that could cause a complex machine to misbehave. therefore, i will always manually calculate when lives are on the line.

[@CaptainCraigKWMRZ]

​@@rakninjaapples and oranges.

[@rakninja]

@@CaptainCraigKWMRZ both are fruit, though, and fruit can rot, or otherwise not be perfectly ripe. i stand by my words, when lives are on the line, i dont blindly trust tech, i do the calculation. much better to do 5 minutes or less of math, than have someone debriefing my end later on.

[@moriver3857]

I still work in CLT and an in area by that hangar, a plaque exist in a small memorial, in memory of this crash and the people lost. Terrible tragedy indeed.

[@Docinaplane]

Only two bad things can happen to a pilot. You go for your last flight, and you know it. You go for your last flight, and you don't know it. Rest in peace.

[@jamesburns2232]

Whether you live, you live for the Lord. Whether you die, it is for the Lord. Whether you live or die, it is for the Lord. 💀☠😇

[@buckmurdock2500]

I went for my last flight and I knew it was the last flight. Parked at the gate, set the brake, walked off and never went back. Kicked out of the cockpit because of a birthday.

[@Docinaplane]

@@buckmurdock2500That is a very unfortunate rule that takes some the best pilots out of action. I believe Sully was very close to that age that when he saved all those people.

[@Renoroadkill]

This one hits home for me. I flew the 1900D for a commuter in the northeast. Great video.

[@MXedits_1]

The commercial for the luggage in the middle of the video, after mentioning the luggage involved in the crash, was peak comedy.

[@christophergagliano2051]

As a certified mechanic and pilot I appreciate this video. To the best of my knowledge it is very accurate with regards to the factual information presented. On an unrelated note, 5052 aluminum is not used in aircraft construction, 2024 yes 7075 yes and sometime 6061 if it needs to be welded. They use 5052 in aluminum boats lol. Okay maybe they use 5052 for non-structural applications interior trim but certainly nothing requiring any strength.

[@duncandmcgrath6290]

I scrolled till the 5 series aluminum got mentioned lol . I'm an S guy and the inaccuracies bug me sometimes.

[@christophergagliano2051]

@@duncandmcgrath6290 thanks for the comment and it's good we have a forum to chime in. This guy reviewed the galloping ghost crash in 2011 and got it almost completely wrong when there was plenty of information out there to identify what actually caused the crash. But again we get to chime in and at least try to correct the record keep up the good work and thanks again.

[@CynOfficial36]

Being in the Navy and certifying aircraft SFF, weight and balance is extremely important! More importantly, the rigging that wasn't inspected after the maint was performed! Such a tragedy! Condolences to the families!

[@chrisclermont456]

Once again, excellent analysis!! This is just so incredibly sad (as are all aviation accidents)!! I must say I'm increasingly shocked at how cavalier some people can be on their jobs particularly when even one honest mistake can have such dire consequences!!

[@mikoto7693]

I don’t get it either. I work as an aircraft cleaner and ramper and I’m borderline paranoid with how careful I am with the aircraft I handle. For example we have to use a banksperson to guide us up to the aircraft under the tail while reversing the water or lavatory truck to fill/flush the tanks. I get a little nervous when it’s a new banksman who I’ve never worked with before. I’m generally extra careful with my reversing when working with someone new. I’ve become real good at looking at the tail above me and knowing how much space I have left which I occasionally use in addition to the banksperson. I would feel bad enough merely accidentally ramming the underside of the tail and getting it grounded while they check the structural integrity of the aft bulkhead hasn’t been compromised and fixing any dents after I reported my mishap. (We don’t get punished for making genuine mistakes. Better to have the employee feel safe reporting it than failing to report it because they fear losing their job.) Let alone ramming it, not reporting it and the bulkhead fails during flight and rips the tail apart. Or failing to disconnect the tug for the nose gear properly. I literally don’t understand the cavalier attitude towards a task that could cause a lot of people to unalive if done wrong.

[@AshTownsend]

Thanks!

[@nevinkuser9892]

What I took from it is that we need more gifted mechanics who don't skip anything and take pride in going the extra mile for safety.

[@iforbach4003]

The airlines are instead continuing to cut costs by underpaying and outsourcing.

[@buckmurdock2500]

Good luck. Those mechanics were making $7-8/hr. while J.O. raked in the $$$ and lived a life of luxury.

[@tristonb1105]

@@buckmurdock2500Not to mention they probably worked long days and were pressured to get their work done asap.

[@bradford_shaun_murray]

@@tristonb1105 and they would of still liked to party when they could as well

[@mikoto7693]

I don’t get it. I’m a ramper, I don’t get paid much, yet I somehow manage to have a sense of integrity-especially when my actions could lead to disaster if done incorrectly.

[@ricardoroberto7054]

Its truly shocking that stuff like this can still happen. We have been learning from mistakes for over 100 years!

[@buckmurdock2500]

well, it was 2003, >21 yrs ago.

[@ricardoroberto7054]

@@buckmurdock2500 yes and we have been flying for 100 years duh.

[@nfcboys1984]

Hi Hoover, love your channel and as a young pilot, I’ve learned so much, and thanks so much for all you do.

[@Amped4Life]

I had a flight from CLT to GSO as a teen and was horrified by the turbulence. Jesus. My dad even admitted it was crazy and he is lifetime status with several airlines and has ff # in the hundreds. Was a road warrior. I was only happy to move to CLT to avoid those hops through T-storms in summer evenings. That flight, the pilot said it would be bad and flight attendants would not leave seats or do service. Walking out of GSO (miss it there - hate what CLT has become in last 5-10 years) to parking lot I looked back on the terminal and saw the lightning / heard the thunder we flew through. Crazyness. Thankfully we got home safely, but now I often panic Ill have a flight that bad again. One came close Boston - Iceland. Rough weather in North Atlantic 3/4 of that flight.

[@ThomStanton]

Wow. Sad story here. Glad to see changes were instituted, especially in revision of 65 year old figures used fur critical for calcs. Thanks for sharing.

[@chantellecollado4236]

Hoover. Familiar with this story. I love your presentation style and what you brought to it. Great work!

[@williammrdeza9445]

What an absolute tragedy! It is too bad that some reviews and changes based on them are not conducted unless or until something like this happens. Again, an excellent analysis Hoover.

[@BobSpector-up7lw]

Thanks!

[@pilot-debrief]

Absolutely!

[@ourlifeinwyoming4654]

Some of your stories leave me sad; this one found me pretty pissed off. Only 7 degrees available for nose down on the elevator? Did people go to jail? Don't mean to offend anyone. I was Air Force maintenance 24 years active and did allot of training during those days. I have little patience for the failures that led to this. God bless the pilots - they must've fought this with all they had.

[@buckmurdock2500]

Better yet, to pile on Beech, the aircraft maintenance manual depicted the elevator trim drum backwards. If rigged according the manual, the elevator trim could be opposite of that set by pilots on the cockpit. This wasn't discovered by investigators for another 8 months when Colgan 9446, a Beech 1900 had the forward elevator trim cable replaced and subsequently crashed in the AO. The manual error was pointed out by a mechanic.

[@jeffreymcdonald8267]

Been watching channels like this for several years. Several countries have prosecuted and jailed surviving pilots and even mechanics and inspectors when gross negligence is found to have caused a crash that resulted in injury and death. For some reason the US does not do this as far as I have been able to learn.

[@mikoto7693]

I heard that they had a bit of control with the landing gear deployed. And that the captain knew she was going to crash and tried to get the aircraft in a direction that would cause the least loss on the ground but that retracting the landing gear made it utterly impossible to control.

[@jeffreymcdonald8267]

@@buckmurdock2500 I read about that.

[@jeffreymcdonald8267]

@@mikoto7693 No doubt that lady plot was a hero to some degree. The dregs that comment and try to make it sound like it was her fault, some even referring to her being a female pilot as a fault, its utterly stupid.

[@melindaharrington7588]

Thank you. I can't stop watching your video's now. Working my way from the newest video's, back to the oldest video's. RIP to all whom have perished.

[@Maceoman]

That’s a suitcase for billionaires .

[@cwatson42785]

You know something is crazy expensive when the coupon code is $300 lol. Probably 3k for that suitcase!

[@Al-Storm]

I'm surprised airports don't have weigh cells for the places before take off. If they're that close to being overweight, all it tastes is a few passengers that are really big... Which is quite common in the West.

[@jon-helgramite2478]

I have a few friends who worked under-wing for a regional. Although not aviators both knew to never put a super heavy bags at the aft bulkhead. Their "unwritten" SOP was to reload if encountering exceptionally heavy bags.

[@mikoto7693]

Pretty much what we do, although if I’m in doubt about anything I get a supervisor to check it or I ask the captain. The fact that ramper did the same tells me that s/he had some real doubts about how safe that luggage weight was.

[@Airpaycheck]

Had a similar issue back in the '90's going from FAY to RDU in a Jetstream 3200. My FO was flying a full airplane but just before rotation speed the airplane started rotating on its own. By the time we lifted off he has pushing the yoke forward with both hands to maintain pitch. Fortunately we had no control issues. After landing I had the bags weighed and it was determined that the bags weighed a lot more than what the paperwork said and our CG was well aft. It seems that standard weights don't apply when carrying a bunch of military folks with gear.

[@pilot-debrief]

What a frightening experience! Thanks for sharing. Fortunately you were able to handle it, but it definitely shows how dangerous an aft CG out of limits can be.

[@mikoto7693]

Gosh, that really puts into perspective how much the pilots (and pax) rely on everyone involved with getting a flight ready for takeoff to do their jobs properly. A good reminder even for us lowly rampers.

[@stevem6711]

Thanks for posting. I worked at CLT for a lot of years and was working there the day of this accident. First time I've heard the elevator was out of rig. I previously thought it was just an out of CG issue.

[@bryanquick2709]

I remember the crash and reading the NTSB report. Wow, tragic. Rigging mistakes also were the factor in the D-8 crash in Mather. The maintenance troops are so important.

[@tibetbill]

In the 1970s & 80s, I worked for the Department of Defense. We were an elite group of mechanics who worked on military fighter aircraft. I saw a lot of things done on fighter aircraft which defies logic and the what the airframe manufacturer recommended. Many of the fighters which came through our program, almost everyone of them had the metering screws on the fuel pumps tweeked to easily push past 100%. A number of the engines would have bent blades. One particular thing was the ACLUs on f-14s almost everyone of them were disconnected as the pilots were afraid of them. On planes coming from the manufacturer, we had pilots asking us to give the engines more fuel, we didn't do it because we did not work for the military. We told them you can take that up with your squadron when you get back to your base. I am not a pilot, but one would think that if you were going to land on an airfraft carrier out in the ocean, having an automatic carrier landing unit would be what you wanted. If you ever look at f-14s landing on carrier decks, it is easy to tell when the pilot has the plane or the ACLU. If the pilot has the plane, the movements of theflight control surfaces are slower and the plane is moving in various directions. If you took off a panel on an f-14 where the ACLU was located, about 98% coming in from the fleet were disconnected and safety wired in a certain positon so they were not easily reconnected. If the plane is being controlled by the ACLU, the flight control surfaces are moving so fast that it is impossible for a human to move them that quickly. The main fusilage is not jinking all over the place and is mainly steady. None of us had commerical A&Ps but did have an equivalent government stamp to vailidate the work we performed on military aircraft. One of the things we did for the military was to help the military keep frontline jets in a state or readiness at all times. A typical f-14, without any pilot discrepancies, would require 98 hours of maintance for every hour it flew. When I was a plane captain, I never saw an f-14 come back from a flight without any discrepancies. Not just me, but anyone working the flight line would say the same. The only reason I am mentioning this was where you showed a paper where it thought the mechanics would not be interested ? in the cables for the flight control surfaces. I have never heard of such a thing. We had to know the aircraft we worked on from the tip of the radome to the exhaust gas nozzles of the engines. We could not be on the flightline and have incomplete knowledge of how the planes we worked on operated. We did stupid things like use rig pins to assure that the flight control surfaces were operating properly and within their operational envelope. Okay, little old school as everything nowadays has gone to fly by wire. All I can tell you is I have watched a number of your videos and this one really scares me. I have never had a commerical A&P and changed careers in the mid 80s and have not worked on an aircraft since. I just think of the Alaskan airline flight 261. This is what I think of when I get on commerical airplanes to fly somewhere. We were under and IRAN mandate which was inspect and replace as necessary. If componens were questionalble or out of tolrance, we just replaced them and did not depend on maintaince inspections or maintance intervals to replace defective components. To me, it takes a lot more than sending someone to a school to be able to pass a test to get an A&P. It is kind of like when you talk about certain ways to fly an aircraft, samething regarding the maintance of an aircraft. What is really scary is there are very few airport hubs which have actual mechanics, much less, parts. Most commerical airplanes are operated under the assumption that if there is a problem beyond a very basic mantaince issue, a plane can be flown to a hub or maintance depot for repairs. Not much of a comfort level when you think of all the problems in the aviation industry. What is even more scary is all the fake/uncertified parts being sold and intstalled on commercial airlines. This has happened in the past, but a train wreck is definitely coming where there junk parts are going to cause more and more planes to fall out of the sky. Just do a google search on fake parts in the commerical airline industry if you want to see what a problem the fake parts are.

[@markprice5651]

Hold on, an FAA inspector advised the mechanics to skip steps? that is horrifying, and the FAA should be held accountable.

[@T_Mo271]

Company inspector, not an FAA employee.

[@None-zc5vg]

The FAA didn't insist on criticsl mods to the DC-10 airframe that might have prevented the 1974 Paris crash.

[@bruerR8757]

Shocking and tragic that aircraft maintenance could be treated with such casual indifference. I can almost understand the weight and balance errors which were compounded by the pilots, ground handlers and existing industry standards but we all, as pilots, especially air carrier pilots, have the added obligation of the safety of the passenger public as well as our own. Sadly, as well as the passengers, two very promising and talented pilots lost their lives. Just when you think you've done everything right, check again. Especially when you are oh so close to the outer limits of aircraft performance and limitations. Excellent presentation.

[@stoldrag85]

Sadly, in this accident I don't see how it could have been prevented by the crew. Ultimately it was the cable tension that thwarted them that day. Makes me wonder what's occurring today with all the new hires throughout the airline industry. Excellent presentation Hoover. And as others have mentioned, much appreciated that you refrain from using this medium as a jam session 🪕

[@duncandmcgrath6290]

​@@stoldrag85Cable tension didn't cause the crash , aft C of G did .

[@mikoto7693]

@@duncandmcgrath6290I thought the video implied that if the elevator had retained its full movement capability it would have given the pilots just enough control to turn and land more or less safely.

[@andrewlunceford1984]

It usually isnt necessary to follow the entire rigging procedure when making a minor adjustment, however the final step when doing any flight control rigging should always be to check the travel.

[@gregmoyer8959]

I worked for the Mainline carrier at this time, I was at a facility on other side of airfield that day. I remember someone calling us and telling us not to go near Hangar, there had been a crash and road was closed. I remember going to the back dock and seeing the smoke. I was over a few days later after investigation and cleanup was complete. I couldn’t believe how the magnesium wheels had burned imprints into the concrete. I can tell you nothing hurts Airline Employees more than having a crash, either mainline or subsidiary, very depressing. I remember every accident or crash in my almost 39 years in Aviation, and four different airlines that formed into one I recently retired from. I attended extensive training after one of the accidents, it was some of the best schooling I ever received.

[@SixTenVisuals]

What’s crazy is that the superstar singer Aaliyah was killed in the same type aircraft and same overweight scenario 2 years before this, except that her pilots knew they were slightly over but caved in to her management that was trying to rush back to the mainland 😢

[@MrElemonator]

Feels like your videos can help find clarity to a situation that can help families who've lost love ones find closure

[@EightiesTV]

Only after you have a loved one ripped from this world in an untimely manner will you realize how off naive it is to suggest watching a You Tube video may provide "closure."

[@57Jimmy]

Such a sad loss of great talent. It sucks when those in charge of aircraft maintenance have a ‘meh’ attitude and even further aggravated by the FAA also…(always)…with the same ‘meh’ attitude. With todays scanning and tracking every aircraft should know exactly what the weights and balance figures are. This is one that really hurts with 21 deaths and countless friends and relatives whose lives have been forever impacted.😢

[@mikoto7693]

I don’t understand those people. Even as a lowly ramper I treat the aircraft I’m handling with the utmost care. I’d feel bad enough merely doing minor damage to an aircraft that got it grounded for a few days, let alone being the cause of a crash.

[@mikearakelian6368]

All the yrs i flew 135 air cargo..i alwsys had a bathroom scale on board.actual weight of pilot/crew,freight weights on large scales at base,1000 lbs...secured with truck cargo straps.weight/bal.pre pland on chart and cg.no problems ever! Ive seen freight fall out of the tail gate on C 7 a on t/off...gotta do the hmwk!!! Yea i quit 2 yrs later,as no one was being trained... Thats h i w it is

[@sclawman]

Good analysis. It's "Greenville- Spartanburg" airport or GSP as locals call it.

[@Jim-fe2xz]

I've been retired for 15 years. When working as a designer in aerospace I knew a supervisor who would say "the drawings are only a suggestion." I told him "well I hope when this thing crashes it doesn't land on your house". It didn't change his attitude but hearing the same attitude at Beech and Boeing it must be universal (and probably in every industry for that matter). The risk of any of my work ever causing harm to anyone was never far from my mind. Maybe holding everyone making cavalier decisions about their work accountable would change things. Mere reason didn't work.

[@major__kong]

I think others have thought of this independently, but after the report came out, i was thinking could you get a good enough estimate of weight and balance by measuring the pressure in the oleo struts. The only problem is stiction taking up some of the load. You'd want some motion to break the stiction to get a better reading. Alternatively, there might be a way to add strain gauges to a landing gear component to estimate load on the landing gear. Either way, you get an estimate of load/weight on each gear, which can then be easily translated into a weight and center-of-gravity estimate. It may not be accurate enough for primary use but could be a cross check on other methods.

[@KenFullman]

I wonder if it might be an idea for every commercial airport to have a weighbridge available (which could even be mandatory for every commercial flight). That way there would be no need for any pilot to guess or judge. They'd get an exact weight every time. In the grand scheme of things, the cost of such a facility would be cheep as chips.

[@major__kong]

There's another way to estimate, and that's to add uncertainties to the component weights and moment arms. There are simple statistical techniques to roll this up into a total uncertainty for both weight and balance. Basically you're looking for when the estimate plus the uncertainty crosses any part of the envelope. I put this in a spreadsheet with weight and balance envelope plots and showed my commercial check ride DPE, Martha Lunken, and she just rolled her eyes snickering about us damn engineers :-)

[@therealajnelson]

From an engineering standpoint this sounds brilliant, but when weight and payload are the nuts and bolts of the profit margins adding extra component weight doesn't seem like something that would be good for the airline's bottom line. The weigh-bridge or a scale pad like truckers utilize, as Ken suggested, seems like a great solution all around.

[@phil_nicholls]

This does actually happen on many larger aircraft. It's not so accurate that it actually determines exact weight, but a cross check is performed automatically against what we load into 'the box' - if the figures are out by a certain margin then we get a 'Caution' message requiring us to at least re-check our figures, and we certainly don't get airborne until the issue is resolved. Both the weight and the trim are checked in this way.

[@carlchong7592]

I'm not that familiar with aircraft design, but I have done a bunch of pneumatic and hydraulic design. I think you could account for stiction by taking a pressure measurement while gradually depressurizing the strut until it starts to compress. Then pressurize the strut until it starts to extend. If you can detect motion of the strut (maybe with an outside observer) you can take two pressure measurements and average them to determine the equilibrium pressure without stiction. I assume that there's a regulator somewhere that could be adjusted for this test.

[@leegalen8383]

How hard would it be to program a digital scale to weigh everyone as they enter, computing the actual total with a report for the pilots for every flight. Surely the tech could be created?

[@chrislebon5927]

Like with most crashes, it is always a series of mistakes.

[@colin-nekritz]

Aka Swiss Cheese Model

[@dsan94]

I'm an aircraft mechanic and I take a lot of pride in doing things correctly and ensuring the safety of my work. Many don't and flying absolutely terrifies me since I entered maintenance 7 years ago.

[@cremebrulee4759]

Thank you! We, ask passengers, count on you.

[@GuyFromSC]

Hopefully they’re using actual weights now. You can look at pictures from the beach in the 60’s and there were no fat people. In the 80s, us Americans were getting bigger. But now, just look around. It’s absolutely mind blowing. And as decently in shape guy, dad bod at 6’-1” 230 lbs, I can’t imagine the average weight still being 195 lbs. And at our current rate, it’ll continue to climb. Our foods are killing us quickly in this case, but slowly in most cases. Now if this accident could have “forever changed ” the food, medical, and health industries, we’d all be in better shape. Literally. 🙏🏼

[@RodneyPinSC]

Not a material issue, but that flight was headed to Greenville, South Carolina - not Greensboro, NC. The deaths of so many execs & students returning to Greenville was a horrible shock to the entire community.

[@Echozero4]

What a terrifying thing to have happen. RIP to everyone involved. :(

[@kevinbaker2054]

Worked for the airline for 10 yrs. The a/c over weight issue might technically be a small cause of the accident, we could put so much mail on the aircraft, I actually left off 500# of mail weight once and we were over gross, but the aircraft still flew with no issues. Pilots were well trained, and I even went on a check ride with check airman M. Alexander. (Video author can check me) the absolute crash of this flight was the fact the turnbuckles in the elevator repair job/maintenance check wasn't checked. Weight and balance, while over gross, wasn't an issue for this a/c type...

[@kevinbaker2054]

I should say "forgot to calculate in 500# of mail I didn't account for (that was loaded)".

[@scottydoo2]

Wasn’t the landing gear involved with this? If I remember correctly they had a little more control of the aircraft while the landing gear was down because the front wheel and gear deployed forward. I also remember that Katie knew they were going to crash and she tried to fly towards the least dangerous ground position as possible. As soon as they raised the landing gear the center of gravity became worse and Katie’s ability to control the plane became non-existent. I don’t remember if leaving the gear down actually would’ve saved the flight from disaster or just helped Katie with control just a little longer.

[@mikoto7693]

Oh, I didn’t know about that. How sad… and heroic that she tried to save people on the ground with what little control she had. I hope she was remembered for that.

[@scottydoo2]

The crash was in large part caused by using FAA average body weights that hadn’t been updated since the 1930s. The plane ended up crashing into the outside corner of a hangar. There were people inside that hangar and there were planes with fuel in their tanks being repaired. If the plane had crashed directly into the hangar a larger fire would have occurred and there definitely would’ve been more casualties and destruction. The pilots should be remembered for spending their last moments trying to protect people on the ground as best as they could.

[@TheDexterFishbourne]

I used to take this flight often during this time when i worked at KAVL. Went KAVL-KGSP-KCLT, took it to catch nonrev flights out of GSP and CLT.

[@wmrayburn7620]

Simply put: the FAA is responsible. We have lost faith in so many of our institutions. In the FAA, the FBI and even Congress itself,; the single most important thread in the tapestry of our social contract is integrity at the most basic level, and 80% (approx) of the individuals in the aforementioned agencies seem to lack it.

[@davidrobertson2826]

80% is probably a significant underestimation to be honest. The government is corrupt and rotten to the core, it’s been decades since they’ve even pretended to care about the interests of Americans instead of themselves/the so-called “elite” - can’t think of many agencies where that isn’t the case - maybe the NWS? Of course they’re decentralized across hundreds of local offices and there isn’t much power to be abused there anyways.

[@bradjohnson4086]

This crash really hit home for me because the brother of a friend and former colleague was on that flight and I went to his memorial service in Austin. You see how many people are affected by the passing of just one of the victims and realize that there are 20 other sets of people who will also be forever grieving their lost friend or family member. So sad.

[@jestingrabbit]

Relying on averages, even if the means are right, when the population is small, is pretty problematic too. As the number of passengers gets larger, their average will be closer to the larger population average, but it'd be really useful to know the standard deviation too, and then i could give you odds on being out by a hundred pounds or more, based on number of passengers.

[@philw4053]

I've watched quite a few of these now. I e travelled all over the world with work and never thought twice about stepping onto a plane. Have to say you've made me a nervous traveller now!

[@rakninja]

dont be, flying is still statistically safer than driving. edit: but i'm not going to lie, stuff like this does make me nervous about flying.

[@bagpusslxv4858]

Me too, especially the smaller aircraft charter jets where the margin’s for error seem to be smaller? Makes me glad that when I go on holiday all the hold bags are weighed and the seat sizes (sort of) restrict the maximum weight of passengers 🤞

[@mikoto7693]

Admittedly I would be a little nervous about flying aboard those little or private charter planes, especially if it was a single pilot aircraft. But not if flying on an airliner such as an A320 or bigger.

[@skoffco]

The luggage you showed in this video reminded me of the Halliburton metal cases some of us used in the airlines back in the day. Only difference we didn’t have wheels. We carried our bags including heavy flight bags with all our Jeppesen charts every where. A workout to say the least. You didn’t want to get caught dead using wheels on your bags😜😜

[@bradsanders407]

It's funny you say that cause I seen a comment not too long ago about why it took so long for baggage companies to figure out wheels on the bag is much better. I think your comment is exactly why. Only a complete idiot wouldn't know that it would be easier for the bags to have wheels so that clearly wasn't the reason. It's the image that's the reason.

[@paulpiacentini]

Really sad, but the lessons learned have surely saved life's since. Thank you.

[@0bm31770]

That's a beautiful bag, but if it costs enough that they can give $300 off, it's out of my range. 😊

[@ak2nda695]

Something only a doctor, lawyer, or pilot can afford.

[@andrewlangrick2299]

I normally expect to buy at least 3 bags for $300

[@MetaView7]

This is so sad. With a small airplane like this, W&B is so critical, that the airline should weigh every passenger and their seats accordingly.

[@ak2nda695]

I can't imagine being an A&P mechanic and not doing everything 100 percent. These mechanics are probably more vital than the pilots, yet they probably get paid considerably less.

[@rtbrtb_dutchy4183]

I don’t think you can “pick” who is more vital. When you have a mechanic do engine maintenance, he is very vital for the safety of the next flight. But when an engine fails after take off, it’s the pilot who is very vital for the safe return.

[@D11_tracks]

Enjoy all of your videos, great detail. Thks for taking the time.

[@briancroft3413]

Greenville, SC

[@thejeffrandallproject6470]

Yep GSP but he said Greensboro by mistake it looks like.

[@pilot-debrief]

I know...my bad...I live in Charlotte and have been to Greenville, SC and Greensboro, NC several times. Just a misspeak.

[@bsdontop1000]

Honestly when flying everyone should be weighed, Not for prices or anything but specifically for the pilots calculations.

[@rl7012]

People who are very overweight or obese should have to pay more for a plane ticket as they cost more fuel to transport and take up more space. Either that or normal and skinny sized people should get a discount if fat people are not charged more.

[@gonrico]

Female pilot Andrew Tate enters

[@cheyennemauritz9911]

Hoover I'm just a person working in the automotive industry it just amazing how many of these videos talk about either weight or checklists

[@billy4072]

Just from a …crassness point of view… I don’t think advertising cabin luggage was a clever move ,.. using this particular incident . As a backdrop, ..Insensitive..is a word I’d use.

[@williamedwards1528]

I agree, considering that KZbin is forcing ads upon us again, which are skipped without exception.

[@johnw4659]

Darkly ironic. You're right.

[@pilot-debrief]

I appreciate your point of view. I meant no disrespect to anyone.

[@networth9151]

Speaking of Greenville-Spartanburg, the Lynard Skynard plane took off from the GS Airport enroute to Baton Rouge, LA. There are so many misconceptions about that crash you should look at the TSB report and do a video.

[@LanceRomanceF4E]

My uncle worked for Hughes aircraft in the early 1950’s - hired by Howard Hughes himself - and helped design passenger seating, galleys and washrooms. Seats were designed to accommodate the average business traveler at time…5’8” 175 male. Seats are still the same size. No accommodations have been made for obesity

[@gravesclayton3604]

I first heard about this one in a documentary 10+ years ago. The 'ramp agent' was an experienced baggage handler who loaded the plane herself. In a post-crash interview with the NTSB investigator, she stated that she was certain that the plane was overloaded after loading the baggage herself & witnessing everyone as they boarded. She said that she approached the flight crew and asked them "what are you going to remove, passengers, or cargo, because this plane is overloaded". She said the crew responded that they had done the calculations and were under the limit & that everything was ok, and that was the end of the conversation. Witnesses to the aircraft departure said that it appeared stable until the nose gear retracted, at which point the aircraft pitched up steeply to about a 45 degree angle, or more. The NTSB lead investigator requested all remains of the luggage (there was a considerable post-crash fire) be weighed, and the passenger weights were calculated by their latest personal medical records. Even after the fire, the actual weight of both passengers and luggage was 500 lbs. over. But even that was not enough to explain the inability of the crew to lose control of the aircraft alone, so the investigator then combed through maintenance records, interviewing the A&P staff about the elevator cable adjustment in the logs. Everything together was just on the edge of controllable flight, but the movement of the nose gear aft into the retracted position tipped the balance at a point where there was no time or altitude to recover. Even though pilots physically & visually check flight controls to be free and correct during every pre-flight walk-around , the degree to which the elevator was out of trim would have been difficult to tell due to its height above the ground, on top of the vertical stabilizer. Even the NTSB investigator had no idea that the 'average' passenger & baggage weights had not been updated since the 1930's, and this was one of the top items in her final report to the FAA that was recommended to be addressed. The elevator travel issue had been within controllable limits and had apparently gone undetected by any flight crews until it was needed to correct the underestimated aft CG present on this flight. This is how a lot of little details snowball into a catastrophe with little to no forewarning. I am surprised that the younger age of the pilot & copilot did not give them pause to take the seasoned baggage handler's warning or advice more seriously. It wasn't much of a chance, but unfortunately, the crew's confidence in outdated standardized procedures was the nail in the coffin. I believe that after this incident, weighing cargo baggage became mandatory for all commercial air travel shortly thereafter. Please feel free to correct me if I have gotten any of these details wrong. I got them from reading the NTSB final report after watching the video documentary of this incident 10 years ago. Hoovey has all the facts dead-on, but I wanted to convey just how close things came to not being an incident at all, and how significant it impacted commercial aviation afterward. Cheers!

[@carmelpule8493]

This is an excellent diagnosis of the incident. Looking at the plan view of this aircraft it seems clear that it can be easily loaded with the CG far aft . Its longer fuselage than the King Air, and the presence of "stabilons", which are small horizontal stabilizers at the rear of the fuselage for overcoming T-tail blanking when the aircraft is in higher angles of attack should catch the attention of any pilot that "pitching is sensitive" and the introduction of the "stabilons" proved it. Additional fins for yaw stability were installed on the tail for 1900Ds, Working out the CG using the average weight was very unwise in a small aircraft . There is a " rate of change sensitivity " which pilots would feel before any aircraft enter the next stage The next stage is achieved by the INTEGRAL OF THE RATE OF CHANGE plus the old state. With a tricycle undercarriage, and the main wheels back, then before the aircraft starts to " fly and rotating" the distribution of weight on the wheels could mean a heavy weight on the nose wheel. At flying speed with the aircraft still on the runway, the RATE OF CHANGE AT WHICH THE NOSE PITCHES UP contains all the information about the relation of the CG to the CLift. I would say that a good pilot would know straight away about the characteristics of his aircraft, by the initial instantaneous pitching RATE OF CHANGE, without the aircraft being allowed to pitch too much. This incident occurred because the pilot in charge was not operating on "the rate of change of the pitching" but on the final integral or value of the final pitch inclination with resp3ect to the apparent air entering the leading edge.. This was too late. All pilots should have a basic course in applied mathematics and engineering to learn that, the future state depends on many higher earlier states, including the third rate of change ( amount of movement on joystick) ) second rate of change (acceleration) and the first rate of change of a state (angular pitch gyration rate). If a pilot learns to feel and be sensitive to how the second rate of change reacts to his stick input "rate and magnitude", then he does not need to let his mistake build up and be integrated through a delay, to a magnitude which he cannot control. This aircraft had flown the previous day and that same day.............. where the RATE OF CHANGE of pitching and input to the stick, was allowed to stay to a safe rate.

[@bobbarron6969]

Fascinating stuff. This is an entirely new way of seeing aviation for me, and clearly and intelligently spoken.

[@Hawka-Loogy]

I have improperly loaded my freighters more than once (DC-6, C-46). It was instinctive to reduce power to lower the nose when tail heavy.

[@snoobeagle]

When the fat lady in front of me tells the pilots her weight is "120", I tell them MY weight is 400, so they get their balances right :D

[@mikeboston421]

a great friend of a dear friend of mine lost his life in this crash, very sad, very preventable, RIP to that gentleman

[@peterhall6656]

Applied mathematician here and not a pilot. I have wondered about the statistical issues surrounding carry on luggage and passenger weights. From a marketing perspective you can't get people to be publicly weighed so you are left with a statistical estimation problem which is ethnically variable. I was amazed that the FAA had not revised those average weight figures. Just gobsmacking and I thank you for explaining that sort of thing.

[@GoAskAlice23]

The oversight committees are dropping the ball in several areas, including traffic violations, specifically, DUIs. Most charges are dropped. One lady who was not old was receiving her 5th OWI charge. Something stinks.

[@jpoconnor5744]

The FAA didn’t do their job… the airline management didn’t do their job… the maintenance supervisor didn’t do his job… the mechanics didn’t do their job… resulting in the deaths of 19 paying passengers and 2 excellent pilots. Same old story. Yet again. So sad.

[@DougAnderson-tv1jd]

Appreciated the ad. You are a serious man & now I know what your thoughts are. Thanks!

[@52CA]

I worked for an operator who operated a corporate shuttle for 23yrs. I was the one loading bags. Even though we did our calculations per the regs I always questioned that the actual numbers were likely very different.

[@chrisshergie1030]

Anyone wanna know the last thing that went through EVERY single passenger’s head on that flight? “God?”

[@Lighttningbolt]

your mom

[@CapitalismSuxx]

So happy seeing Disaster Breakdown's watermark here. She really makes such stellar work, I especially love the weather reports!

[@pilot-debrief]

Chloe is fantastic and has a great channel!

[@johnglubney3228]

Thank God the big red arrow is there to show me where the smoke is. Without that, I'd be confused.

[@party4keeps28]

196lbs average weight!?! Things are even worse than I thought...