Dealer says: Needs NEW ENGINE?? Limping Jeep RUBICON - Part 1 (P0390, P0394)

[@brucetaylor8498]

I like to think that I am a smarter than average guy, but Ivan you are on a completely different level. I am constantly in awe of your diagnostic and trouble shooting skills. Thanks so much for sharing your talents with the world!

[@robbflynn4325]

He's a genius. Bet his IQ exceeds 150. His father is a rocket scientist. What I like best is his modesty and honesty.

[@avanap8096]

Lol we all do

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

I'm just stubborn and trust the scientific method 😅

[@davidnorton5887]

Calm down.

[@seventhladderautosport]

He’s like Spider-Man

[@jimhaines8370]

Hard to believe a Chrysler has problems

[@sergeeternal3778]

🤣🤣🤣

[@GregoryGlessnerViolin]

Sounds like the dealer just didn't want to deal with this issue, so they said "needs engine" so the owner would either go away or spend lots of money.

[@scrappy7571]

We do it at the dealer too. Nobody here wants to "live" with it, and have fix it for free everytime it comes back. Just go away. lol

[@promastersonly1419]

Because this engine is the ONLY thing I work on, I can take a pretty good guess as to what’s happening. Paste on the reluctor wheels is normal and not the problem. There is a galley plug in each head. When the engine starts cold, it commands high oil pressure, which should be about 70psi. Shortly after it starts, it switches to low pressure, which should be about 29-32psi at idle. I noticed the tool showed about 50 psi at startup, in concert with the noise. Those galley plugs can work loose, and bleed off oil pressure. Pump pressure and system pressure would be fine, but pressure JUST TO that phaser would be low. JT at Online Mechanic Tips has a video on it. I bet if you run the phaser cleaning routings from the thinktool, that cam might fail to clean. Or, you could artificially run the oil pump high by putting 12v to it. Or you could record the cam position data while driving at over 3500rpm, which is when the pump kicks to high. My guess is the oil pressure bleed off is worse when the pressure is higher. Another possibility is the phaser is bad. You can test it easily with the valve cover off - put a cresent wrench on the spot on the cam orovided and see if the cam is loose to the phaser. Compare to cam next to it - it should be rock solid. And lastly, yeah the tone wheel could have shifted. Possible. A tool exists to check it.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Excellent info, Kip! I'm sure you see these failures on a weekly basis in your shop! It's the first one that I have seen, so you can watch me struggle xD

[@W.Khairi]

@promasteronly ... does this engine have duty cycle controled oil pump? ...Thanks a lot for sharing ur knowledge.

[@promastersonly1419]

@@W.Khairi No. It has a 2 mode oil pump, controlled by a solenoid that fails pretty regularly. I bet you are chasing P06da thru P06dd, or you are chasing P0520 or P0522. I have specific videos on each of these codes on my channel. Both codes can be ignored indefinitely.

[@W.Khairi]

@@promastersonly1419 Actually I havent worked on pentastar yet, But when u talked about oil pressure comanded by pcm it sparked my interest, I think I came cross ur channel before and will sure check it again, Thanks a lot for ur reply.

[@JamesAgans]

I don't see how "Paste" is normal. It's like valve grinding compound going around inside your engine. Is saying that paste is normal a common thing with these vehicles?

[@10100rsn]

Just started watching the video. If this is a Pentastar V6 then the camshaft position sensors are in the valve covers. Anytime the camshaft sensors or valve covers become loose, get removed or replaced you have to do the cam/crank relearn procedure. Otherwise, you can get random misfire codes, sensor codes or in extreme cases a blown engine. I'd make sure the valve covers and sensors are bolted down tight to spec (and not loose at all) and do a cam/crank relearn before testing further.

[@10100rsn]

Also, cam/crank relearn when the cam shafts are changed. So anytime you have anything done to the sensor, the valve cover or the cam shaft or crank sensor.

[@v12alpine]

Given how many times the PCM was replaced, I wonder if this procedure was done properly each time. The cam sync profile is one of those things that doesn't clear automatically like learned fuel trims. Had this issue even with the old 4.0's. But given the inconsistency of the durations and nasty noises, I'm leaning towards chain slop and/or phaser issues.

[@10100rsn]

@@v12alpine Could be chain slop or a collapsed tensioner or even low oil pressure but the engine can still actuate the phasers and the noise goes away. And since the sensor and the ECM were both replaced at some point I'd still start with a relearn procedure and data reset.

[@182QKFTW]

The tensioner on that bank has a ratcheting pawl that that takes up slack, and wont collapse. Ask me how I know! Hint, I just replaced both exhaust cams on a '15 w/ only 123k because of rocker failure:/@@10100rsn

[@hhn2002]

@@v12alpinechain slop due to weak tensioner would be my guess, if there was no chain stretch but weak tensioner I can see how it would bounce around . Good idea, hadn’t thought of that. I vote this is the issue. Hopefully Ivan considered this before he fired the parts cannon.

[@ischmidt]

The "forbidden glitter" buildup plus the reputation of Pentastars is enough that I'd seriously lean towards calling the engine, or at least tearing it down to determine which bearing(s) are disintegrating. Can't wait for the next video to find out though.

[@dwightelvey645]

I'd remove the cover. The grey stuff is an indication of bearing failures. Also, removing the grey stuff does not clean the small iron particles. You have to drag them off with a sharp iron object( needle ) that will concentrate the field to pull it off. I've worked with meter movements that have iron particles in them. It is a slow process. I suspect you are seeing that the camshaft has loose bearing and the wheel is poorly positioned with the pickup. You might run your crank compression comparisons. That rattle is likely related.

[@soundman6241]

Oh, those new pulse width modulated cam shafts are hard to diagnose 😂

[@kykyABCA]

or you could just replace the faulty rocker arms thats bearing material from the rocker arms a very well documented and understood failure caused by cheap mexican parts chrysler has rectified this issue thankfully . update those rocker arms swap the cam do a relearn procedure check the oil pump operation at its dual stages flush the oil and remove oil pan to remove all the needle bearings off you go another 500,000 kms . all these modern plastic engines from the last 15 years from every manufacturer has had or still has chevy ahem ford ahem rocker arm failures thakfully its super easy to repair on 3.6 penta you do not even need to touch timing to swap out a cam these engines are not the bullet proof 3.3/3.8 push rod v6s however they have shown to be very reliable and are in millions of cars trucks vans suvs commercial vans you name it in its two variants . i am a Hyundai boy not a chrysler a shill however i see this a lot where scared techs end up costing customers 10 thousand dollars instead of doing some research and reaching out to a chrysler tech not Ivan obviously though he is always veryyyy careful on calling a replacement but this may be one of those cases where a chrysler tech does the job via indepent or corporate there scan tools are really bad ass and can do much deeper analysis and deeper into the modules then can be done with generic chinese 2 way scan tools or evem snap on trash . love the vids If you see this bud it does seem like the cam is faulty though and there was a TSB if memory serves about this issue on some caravans i thiiinkk but again same engine same parts just different intake plastics

[@joshboyer8449]

If someone put a magnet down the whole that could have caused a failure. They have a special note in the repair instructions about keeping magnets away from wheel, just a thought

[@mikerobbins5049]

These newer vehicles are so complicate that I’m not sure the person who designs their components understand them. We need more people like you who try to figure out the true cause of a problem and are genuinely interested in finding the cause and the remedy. I had a 2010 Wrangler that while on a trip to Co and Utah it just went crazy with all the lights on the dash on, reduced power and just acting weird. Pulled off the road and let it sit 30 min or so and everything was fine and it never happened again in the next 100,000 miles I drove the thing....

[@kyferez1]

As soon as you said the blue is shorter, I realized what is likely the issue: The cam reluctor magnets lost some of their magnetism; weaker field causes shorter duration.

[@tomtke7351]

A very good thought!

[@ratbert86]

Reminds me of the old GM 3800 V6s with the magnet snapped into the camshaft gear sprocket. Diagnosing one kicked my @ss for HOURS.

[@Volusia1]

Look at just filed class action suit just filed regarding Penstar 3.6 regarding valve train oil issues with rockers… The last I read Chrysler agreed to voluntary recall on engine components dating back to 2010 in exchange for plaintiffs dropping portions of law suit..

[@ALEX-xd7ko]

Hmmm . Hope they pay the people back who have already fixed the problem

[@2nickles647]

He bought it used. You have to be the original owner.

[@quicksilver462]

Having seen the metal shavings on the reluctor wheel, I would cut the oil filter open and inspect it.

[@KimLake1]

I do remember Bernie saying that a misplaced block ground can cause it to shift if the ground is going through the cam. I am almost sure that he had this issue and it was a misplaced ground, The owner said they replaced the complete harness. Did they put it back correctly? If this is indeed what caused it it will reoccur if not corrected.

[@MechanQDX445]

I think it was a crankshaft related issue. The current that went through the misplaced ground would magnetize unevenly the pulley that the sensor was reading and the engine would stall eventually. Bernie had to use a special tool to fix that issue.

[@KimLake1]

He did but replacing the cam would avoid what he did, And it was a relucttor problem not a crank problem. Crank would nave nothing to do with this situation. My guess is That Ivan has solved this already and an looking forward to the conclusion BTW this is why he and and Eric O are worth every penny you pay them!!

[@JPAutoService]

Gotta love the never-been-used farm jack mounted behind the hood. Every "off road" jeep has one purely for looks.

[@BarbWinget-yq3oz]

Check the badge of honor collection, this is not a pavement princess!

[@paulstandaert5709]

Long post here: I recently did a head job on a low mileage Town & Country minivan. It DID NOT do this P0394 before the work I did to it. Both heads were rebuilt and the original cams put right back in place. Something like 74,000 miles and a bad exhaust valve on cylinder 2 (?). Front left cylinder. I also determined that the code description and code setting criteria as shown in service data is completely bogus. My scope capture showed exactly what was going on here as well. I did not come to definitive conclusion on any of it. Those oil passage bolts right next to the cam phaser are NOTORIOUS for being loose and/or falling out. It appears as though they never got tightened straight from the factory. This will cause improper oiling to the cam phasers. This was a 2014 model and did NOT do that cam phaser rattle after startup.... ever. It also got all new plastic timing components. Original chain, original phasers. Original CMPs. Issue was with the left (front) bank. The problem WOULD NOT follow the cam sensor, but swapping them DID yield the problem to be much more pronounced. (Computer needing to learn a slightly different waveform?) In my case, those oil passage bolts were tight after the valve job. After scoping stuff, I took the valve cover off of the affected head and reefed on those aforementioned bolts a bit more. I also reefed on the cam to make sure the phasers were locked as they should be. That all showed fine. Then, after startup, I got what sounded like a phaser rattle for the first time. It went away after about a minute of idling. It slowly went away much like an old hydraulic lash adjuster pumping up. Why this one time? I have no clue. After that, the problem went away and I was not able to duplicate the P0394. I gave it back to the customer where it started acting up again, but very intermittently. I did not have time to help him much, but I told him to keep driving it and see if the problem gets worse. He did mention that it would often happen after doing some engine braking and manual shifting. Well, it got better over the weeks/months. After my last conversation with him, he sounded like the problem has completely gone away now. As far as I can tell, the oil pressure PIDs were exactly what I would expect to see. I also replaced the oil cooler with the aluminum dorman unit and whatever oil filter that they supplied with it. According to FCA, the oil filter itself can cause the P0394. And this vehicle can no longer accept the original specified oil filter.... it needs to be one from a later model. Nevertheless, I am looking forward to part 2. And part 3 or 4 or 5 if necessary. But I am confident that those cam phasers are not supposed to rattle like that. My super wild ass guess at this point is that you threw phasers in it, because that is what I was about to do. If that didn't fix it, it was going to get a cam. In my case, the P0394 would not set as long as the VVT solenoids aren't able to function... by either unplugging them or loosening them from the head. Other codes would pop up, but never this intermittent cam signal code. I should also mention that the inside of this engine was the cleanest I have ever seen that had any significant age and miles to it. The head rebuilder I use is really sharp, or he has me thoroughly fooled.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Great post. This Jeep was one of the harder case studies this year for sure. Stay tuned 👍

[@promastersonly1419]

I have a video on cracked exhaust valve, cyl 2 on my youtube channel. When that problem comes into my shop, we replace the head, since they are relatively cheap and carry a 150,000 mile warranty from FCA. But I’d be curious to know what you paid to simply clean up and rebuild the old head, and install new valves in #2. New heads wont be available forever, and eventually we’ll have to rebuild old ones.

[@paulstandaert5709]

@@promastersonly1419 I discovered how relatively cheap they were after I had them rebuilt. FCA was/is selling them at an unusually low cost, but I never found out how much. I think I paid something like $1,800 for both heads? $900 each. It might have been more. He is not a cheap rebuild, but does a good job and knows everything about cylinder heads.... Like everything. FCA even extended their warranty on it, but time expired. I did both heads. The valve margin on these things are often out of spec right out of the manufacturing plant. If the first one had a valve issue at 74,000 miles, what faith should I have in others? Hell, they don't even tighten those oil passage bolts. I liked Chrysler corp products up until Daimler took over in 1998. Then they went to poo. They got better automatic transmissions, but that's it. The rest is garbage. I don't hardly see any 3rd generation Dakotas anywhere. The 2nd generation LH cars are virtually extinct. 2nd generation Durango's are gone. The cloud cars are gone. 2nd generation Neons are all gone. Minivans remain. More 2001 and older Ram pickups roam around than the 2002+ models. I couldn't recommend an FCA product, as much as it pains me to say it.

[@paulstandaert5709]

@@promastersonly1419 When I called the head rebuilder with my issue, he asked if it was a 3.6 Pentastar. I said "Yes." He asked, "low miles?" and I said "yes." It's almost like he has done this a few dozen times at least. And he never had one with an eaten up cam, which they are also notorious for, which suggests that the ones he is doing are all low miles. He has also found debris of unknown origin in these heads. I dunno. Like I said, I cannot recommend these things.

[@promastersonly1419]

@@paulstandaert5709 chrysler’s bad reputation for quality is PURELY a product of Mercedes. In 1992, chrysler was the most profitable domestic. Great stuff and innovative. Viper, first gen Ram, cummins, prowler, PT, cab forward. Fast forward to 2007 after Benz had raped them. Caliber, 4.7, Dakota, sebring and avenger. Garbage. Finally fully shed the stink of benz by 2014. This 3.6 engine is pure non-Benz. We push to past 500,000 easily. They have two major pattern failures, and you discovered a minor pattern failure. But otherwise, truly bulletproof. No egr, no fuel return system, no fuel pressure regulator, no fuel filter, no MAF sensor. We have NEVER seen a watee pump failure. Ever. Chain, oil pump, map, injectors, master cylinder…never seen a failed one. Truly impressive.

[@jamesbrooks5442]

Thats why older stuff that has no computer bs is the best for off road

[@JamesAgans]

It's the best for On Road, too.

[@182QKFTW]

Bet you a dollar the rockers are eating 1 or moar cam lobes. I had to replace both exhaust cams on a '15 w/ only 123k miles not long ago. They had way less metal on the wheels than this one:/ It had no codes btw. Just a slight tick that I thought we could fix w/ preventative maintenance. 1 rocker roller was seized & another had bearings failing & eating lobes *Also found 1 oil gallery plug backed out*

[@starburststock]

Could be the hydraulic tensioner and chain stretch on that bank. The hydraulic tensioner could be fluttering causing stretch and shrinking of the signal.

[@crustybmw]

Exactly what happens with the GM V6 I had it with mine would drive then get cam position error

[@cullenmiller8170]

Interesting case study. I wonder how many miles since last oil change. If it has some miles on it it might be interesting to cut the oil filter open to see if there’s metal in it. Maybe ask the owner if any snake oil was put in the engine that would allow the buildup on the reluctor wheels.

[@nevillegoddard4966]

@@cullenmiller8170. Ivan cleaned the silver paste stuff off the reluctor/s, & nothing changed.

[@stevee4621]

Pull the oil filter and open it up, if its full of glitter you have an idea for where you are going with this...

[@mikedoblo4782]

after seeing the grey goo i can see why they said it needs an engine

[@edwinlomonaco6754]

Given all the issues these engines have and the accumulation of metal debris on the reluctor wheel I'd call an engine. May seem extreme but we've replaced cams only on so many of these only to have them.come back. Unfortunately these engines are very problematic. And in a shop environment we just don't like doing 2k worth of work only to have to do 5k worth of work a month or even a year later.

[@UnWrecked]

My only guess would be that the cam bearings are going bad, which could be why you had the metallic paste. Possibility that maybe one cam is pulling away or one is pulling closer because of the bad bearing 🤷‍♂️

[@dans_Learning_Curve]

YEP, that material is coming from something. 🤔

[@zciwonapo]

Whisper in his ear, "Toyota."

[@stevewhite3424]

What Toyota post 2017 would be even roughly equivalent? That is available for sale in the US.

[@LivingTheDream77]

@@stevewhite34244Runner

[@moeganim]

the only reason is that some of the magnets are warren or rubbed against some thing and they got deformed. The sensor are reading the actual status. so it got be the magnets.

[@_RiseAgainst]

"needs a new wire harness" translation -we have no idea what the problem is and are too proud to say so.

[@davidhall3747]

Ivan: I had a similar problem with a Ford 5.4 Liter (3) Valve Engine. I had just finished installing brand new Timing Chains, Guides, Tensioners, VCT Solenoids, Cam Phasers, & new Oil Pump. i started the Engine and it ran smooth for about five minutes. At about five minutes the P0345 DTC was thrown. Intermittent Cam Shaft Position Sensor Signal. After 2 weeks of extensive diagnostics, I ruled out Electrical/ Electronics failure. Ford Engineers recommended to swap out the PCM if the Sine Wave signal was good. It was a good signal, so I installed a new PCM. The PO 345 DTC kept coming back repeatedly. I pulled the Bank 2 Valve Cover off and discovered the Reluctor wheel was out of Calibration from the Factory. I installed a known good Cam Phaser and solved the problem. It was indeed Mechanical Failure of the Cam Phaser that caused the issue. Keep in mind this was a brand new Cam Phaser that was defective from the Factory.

[@JamesAgans]

Did you use OEM Ford parts?

[@davidhall3747]

@@JamesAgansYou bet.

[@davidhall3747]

You bet.

[@johnrodriguez473]

In the electrical/instrumentation world, you don't ground both side of a shielded cable or raceway because you will creat a CT loop which basically the conductor becomes a mini transformer

[@GarnConstructionInc]

The customer has been through the wr(a)inger. I used to put an overseeing customer to work to reduce down time. Its a different profit scale that most wont accept! You raise the (roll) bar to satisfy a justifiably weary shop hopper! A past or present oil leak mixed with ground up ferrous made the most sense. Maybe a phaser is getting gummed up. The bonus footage is pointing to an oil pressure issue.

[@calholli]

The strangest thing to me is that your scantool is showing it being five degrees off.. but many parts of the pattern actually line up-- ?? so you would think that would show up in the scan data; with it sometimes matching the same degrees-- but it never does. Maybe the scan data is actually only reading the end of each pattern, and not the leading edge. So maybe you could still fix it by Russian adjustment of the reluctor.. and just make that falling edge match up......... I guess this case is probably already done and long gone a month ago, so I'll just watch what you did. :)

[@grad0n]

I will be working on a sluggish 2012 wrangler with a cam sensor code. Now I know there are only 2 dual sensors instead of 4, where they are, and will definitely clean the reluctor wheels while I’m in there.

[@r.weaver3769]

I know Mercedes 3.5l is different, but the lock pin on my bank two Camshaft Adjuster (phaser) was worn, and would rattle till oil pressure built up enough to lock it in. After phaser replacement, the signal is nice and steady like the other bank. Could account for waveform blocks being different lengths too.

[@mattbrown5511]

The joys and excellence of PentaStar engines on display once again.

[@MrKingdavis13]

It's a Jeep = Just Empty Every Pocket lol. I don't have an answer for you but I am wondering if the wiring integrity on that circuit could be effecting the operation of the sensor? Could slightly more resistance change the signal it reports like that? Swapping sensors and producing the same symptom usually means there is another issue but I can at least imagine a way the circuit could do that. As for the noise at start up it makes me think there is something wrong with the timing system all together and it is like advancing the timing too much or something. Good luck.

[@dbird29]

At 94K miles my 2012 JKUR had a bad oil pump and the timing chains and sprockets were very worn so had to a replacement of those components. "While I was in there" did the lifters and rockers too. Found a few bad rockers and lifters, cams were ok and cleaned up just fine.

[@atuhumuzakenneth8129]

Read the service data on replacement of engine sensors and sensing parts, it says you must do a cam and crank sensor relearn

[@Knight_of_NI]

Great video brother, I appreciate how thorough and educational you are!

[@robertlacob8831]

Waiting for part 2! Let's all see what Ivan finds! These engines seem to be way over-engineered and complicated for themselves.

[@Ilikeryche]

Over engineered and complex, all because the climate alarmists are brainwashed to think internal combustion engines are harming the planet. God gave us Crude oil so we wouldn't mess around with electric vehicles.

[@ckm-mkc]

They are overengineered because people want everything all at once - power, fuel economy and low emissions. If you want simplicity, pick two.

[@joshdupont2209]

​@ckm-mkc is that why my 4l in my exploder still runs? It seems to have none of those. No power, gets okish mpg and idk about or care about emissions part of it.

[@brainndamage]

Could be an air gap difference causing the difference between the sensors. The computer probably calibrates that out with the cam-crank relern. The big issue is the shifting, which could be slop in the timing system, maybe in the phaser or the phaser being loose on the cam.

[@justinhayward5027]

Oil galley bolts in front of head loosens and fall out causing loss of oil pressure in head to cams. Right behind the phasers little 13 mm bolts

[@moeganim]

Yes please we want to see the result of this. Pleeeeeeese

[@mikechiodetti4482]

I remember Bernie having a similar problem and he used a degausing machine to demagnitize the cam and it's reluctor. The degauser is similar to the one used in old TV's with cathode ray picture tubes. He said the problem is rare but it happens. Not sure about the ground part, but that's worth a try just to verify. On to part 2.

[@JessClearyAutoRepairLLC]

Ivan, I think Bernie Thompson did a video on a reluctor wheel that had lost its magneism becasue a ground had been removed, and current was passing through it during the high amp starter motor draw. He did a whole thing about checking it with a gossmeter app on a smartphone if i remember correcty. And he even built a device to remagnetize it in the vehicle (similar to what they use to remagneize magneto ignitions). It was a ckp he was working on I believe. If I can find the video i'll post a link. You might want to check for missing/relocated ground straps, and for voltage drop on the ground side of the starter.

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

Bernie is a mad scientist haha

[@JessClearyAutoRepairLLC]

Correction, the trigger wheel had taken on some magnetism. Here it is, it's long, but worth it. Man, I sure would like to work with Bernie for a while. He's crazy sharp! kzbin.info/www/bejne/aJakoX9qirWHarMsi=t8vH4Ep1TSTZjDLJ

[@JimmyMakingitwork]

For anyone wondering, if the alternator looks backwards, it is how Jeep decided it should be done. The last three Jeeps we looked at all went back to the dealer for major engine repairs, 13k Head Gasket, 22k Cam Phaser and 34k miles valve issues...all well maintained. One owned by a coworker who thinks Wranglers are too cool to pass up. I'd never want to own one of these out of warranty. I wonder if the reluctor moved away from the sensor on the camshaft... Nice work!

[@RetroAnachronist]

Out of warranty, just LS swap it.

[@billjohnson2000]

Ivan, anybody been welding on that vehicle? It’s got some off road accessories 🤔. Bernie showed a couple of videos on magnetized reluctor wheels.

[@davidmitchell7183]

Have you ever thought of how rapidly shifting cam timing might be tough on timing chain components. Compare the ford 5.4 3v to the 6.8 v10. The v10 never had variable cam timing and aren't known for timing problems. The 5.4 3v was a nightmare of broken cam guides and tensioners.

[@privateer0561]

Build a carbureted 340 with aluminum heads and cast iron exhaust manifolds. Install. Give the factory engine and electronics a viking funeral.

[@keitheagle4633]

After any type of metal gets hot it will Shrek not much but on a wheel it will make a big difference

[@ronquixote3767]

18 year Jeep tech here. 3.6 have a lot of issues with camshafts. It normal to see metal on the cam magnet. I would check the cam phaser, you have to take the valve cover off and you can use a wrench to try and turn the cam. If the phaser is worn the cam will feel slacky compared to the other side. I’ve seen the phaser get stuck or just real loose and can’t adjust timing fast enough to what the pcm is asking. I’d replace the camshaft and the phaser. You don’t have to take the front cover off to replace the phaser either, it’s tricky but it can be done. And if you do replace the cam replace the rocker arms while you’re there

[@juansautodiagnostic6199]

Had one last week but on a caravan for the same bank and same sensor. Wrong camshaft but was a auction car so not that much history. Replace the camshaft and fix

[@greggc8088]

The two front oil galley plugs behind the cam actuator? They get loose from the factory. Just throwing it out there.

[@dalebailey1844]

On my 2011 Dodge Grand caravan. I think it is the same style engine. The upper cam holders were worn out at 1500 miles. It had the same grey paste all though the engine as the cam holders were not tight anymore and the cam was jumping all over the place causing the engine not able to phaze the cam shafts correctly. Take an oil sample. It might be al ot of Aluminum. Have A Great Day.

[@ram40andy]

Check the oil galleries plugs under camshaft sprockets. Cheers.

[@fcafixer9089]

Rewatch this video. Check at 7:18, your red trace has the incorrect pattern. It is consistently wrong for the "2-1-2" pattern (medium-narrow-medium). This would indicate a bad reductor and I assume the red trace was on the bank 2 intake cam?

[@fjkania4117]

Another fine example of Sellantis under enginering.

[@himeedajew]

Great video I just did lifters and rockers on a Jeep Wrangler 2013. And one thing I noticed plastered on every page of the repair manual is that you cannot let the magnetic timing Wheels come into contact with any magnets.. this will destroy its ability to correctly relay camshaft position to the sensor....a good possibility

[@Youtube_kontot]

Please get some caps for the AC service ports! It hurts so see them open like that.

[@RJTC]

Some form of magnetised part, biasing the sensor towards one magnetic polarity? That could skew one level shorter and the other longer??

[@skysurferuk]

I sincerely hope that any pro mechanics out there, who are getting information to use from you, Ivan, are dropping you at least some beer tokens for your efforts. Great diags.

[@woodrol]

I have had a similar problem on a Chrysler 3.6. The rattle is the phaser and the cam signal is the reluctor out of position. . The repair was a new phaser and a used camshaft. The reluctor does not have an index.

[@Mikem12804]

I've seen the exact same thing before, the cam journals and camshafts were worn and causing a loss of oil pressure. Replaced bothe cylinder heads and all 4 camshafts to fix the issue.

[@edmonddoiron9093]

Very interesting. Thinking of a case study I seen where the valve cover was not sitting properly and creating an air gap issue. I think the cam sensor are bolted to it.

[@2muchy2]

Ship it back to Moab, flip it upside down in the Devil's Hot rub. Then have Rory drag it out with Trailmater.

[@philcooper134]

Working at a CDJR these are some of my favorite diags. My gut is cam phaser. I have seen one cause this exact code and symptoms on a grand caravan. Once I removed the valve cover to inspect I found the phaser could spin independently of the cam, lock pin broken. Still not sure how the thing ran so well. FCA also makes a very nice special tool that sits on the cam sensor pedestal and can verify 100% that the reluctors aren’t shifted. Another thing to check is the 13mm oil gallery plugs on the front of the head, right under the phasers. They are notorious for backing out causing loss of oil pressure to rockers, lifters, phasers, etc.

[@petepeabody8905]

Ivan it was cool how you go about your diag methods. I'm sure the dealer never went to these extremes. Why because they wanted to call it an engine, or they just didn't know. Excellent thoughts

[@greghanlon2235]

Tough one. Stick to it and think outside the box. You'll get it Ivan.

[@krugtech]

things like these cam sensors condition the signal internally, that masks the scope from the actual pickup inside the sensor. I found if you can measure the signal before the internal conditioning stage you learn more, especially with something like a tone ring. you have to hack the sensors but when it gets desperate i try everything. i do industrial controls and auto electric, same thing imho. you would make a fortune in industrial controls.

[@atuhumuzakenneth8129]

Can, you try to do a cam crank shaft relearn, if you remove or change a cam or crank sensor , sure you have to do a relearn, perhaps you are over thinking the problem. Also someone talked about a loose top cover which houses cam sensors.

[@brianw8963]

I suffer from PTJD from working on the older J J Je Jeeps so it’s a little tough for Me to get through these, especially that last one. Good therapy none the less! I think I’ll make it. 😀👍👍🇺🇸

[@advancedleveldiagnostics]

Great Case study, Thanks for sharing! Where was your finger when you were turning over the engine? I'm sure Bernie T. would say it's a magnetized Camshaft.

[@MikeKing-qm8ie]

Is there any chance the cam bearings could allow enough movement to cause a problem ?

[@paulthompson7280]

I would give the cam Roters a clean with Scotch Brite i think the rusty metal has contaminated the Aluminum causing a slight magnetic effect where there shouldn't be one clean them up and their would be a cleaner distinction between the metal gaped by the Aluminum in the Relucter as you call it I call them magnetic Roters but give it a go mate , good videos im learning how to use a Sillacope 4ch im a Mechanic and it's back to school for me 😮

[@stevenakn1]

Looks like something let go allowing the cam to flex. Can't wait for part 2 good luck brother 🙏

[@b61mack56]

I had the magnetic material come loose on my reluctor wheel do to poor adhesion glue. That may be your problem. Just enough to let the magnetic material move a little.

[@LizzardDude58]

Love your videos Ivan. Absolutely incredible of the knowledge you share. Before the Jeep haters start just look at the front left fender. I count 16 Trail Badge of Honor. So with the problems he seems to have here just understand what the Jeep has accomplished so far. Just sayn....

[@stevenkarkkainen8115]

My son had to replace the whole valve train on his 2020 Gladiator with the 3.6 Pentastar engine! The 3.6 Pentastar engine is a plain bad engine. I’m thinking the lube system with the upside down oil filter assembly without a oil check valve drains and you basically get a “dry” start with no lube initially. And probably the cam metal is too soft and wears prematurely causing majority of valve train issues! GMC had problems with the 6-cylinder engines years ago because of lack of hardness of cam metal.

[@jimkillen1065]

Enjoy the videos. Always a learning experience.. Not a chance i ever take a vehicle to a dealer unless it was warranty. Since i wont buy a new one thats not a problem..look forward to seeing the next video

[@dans_Learning_Curve]

Will never buy a new vehicle! Don't have anything with less than 200,000! Newest vehicle is an '03 Forester which I'm currently putting back together with new rings. Hoping for less oil consumption!

[@jaredobernesser3292]

I worked on a 2015 Wrangler V6 Pentastar that had terrible rattling noise at startup. It required new lifters and rockers on the driver side cylinder head. If it goes long enough the rollers will eat into the camshaft and that has to be replaced as well.

[@mikemakuh5319]

A similar incident happened to a friend. Took his Toyota land cruiser to the dealer to get the regular service. When he picked it up after a full service it would barely run, he complained, they did a check on the problem and informed him that it needed a NEW ENGINE! As part of the service they replaced the cap, rotor and wires. He said Bull Shit! I looked it over and switched two plug wires and it was good as new with out a NEW ENGINE!!!

[@jamesanderson2176]

Bearing wear could allow the reluctor wheel to move toward/away from the sensor. It would probably have to be pretty severe, though.

[@georgegonzalez2476]

Some basic electromagnetics may give us a hint: Magnetic fields have two poles, consequently the field intensity drops off as the CUBE of the distance. So just a small change in the magnetic wheel to sensor distance causes a disproportionate change in the field and also in the induced voltage. Also the field loops out from each pole, so the pulse width changes with distance too. Yet another magnetic quirk: magnetic field strength goes down with every heating/cooling cycle, and also goes down after a high heating cycle. All these small effects may be conspiring trow the timing signals off.

[@danielpatty9485]

Is the reluctor wheel supposed to be magnetic? Bernie Thomson has a couple of videos where the wheels got manetized by poor ground routing.

[@2468pdv]

Disconnect phaser control wires and do the scope check,the cams should be locked and syncronous to each other

[@calholli]

One thing that I might try is to swap banks and see if it reads the same on the other bank circuit; since it's giving a circuit code anyway.. Instead of swapping sensors (like you already did)-- just unhook your wiring harness and add jumper wires to connect bank 1's plug over on the back 2 sensor: and vise versa. If the problem still stays on bank 2 in the scanner, then that would imply that it's just the sensor line or driver in the computer that is going wonky. If all the numbers simply swap banks, then that would confirm again that it's just the reluctor wheel going bad somehow (as you said)..

[@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics]

That would not work since the VVT feedback loop would be reversed 🤔 I doubt the engine would run at all... Unless it goes to limp mode right away 😅

[@calholli]

@@PineHollowAutoDiagnostics Yeah IDK how it works exactly.. I was making a lot of assumptions. :)

[@darrendouglas4796]

Needs engine? Too many camshafts! Hemi-swap candidate- Whole new set of harness problems 🤣 Good on ya Ivan helpin out a frustrated Jeeper who clearly is enthusiastic about his vehicle

[@jonkuypers4576]

In the bore scope part it almost looks like it's worn down and has a lip on the outer edge, which would explain the metal goop and also increase the air gap between the sensor and the reluctor wheel. Just a thought.

[@akaitv6606]

I'd press on new reluctors , they can de magnetite it happens on CV shaft abs sensors aswell

[@andrewhorsburgh2549]

I am a fan of, Diagnosis Dan, may have found a new watch. l find its interesting watching about things I know nothing about.

[@embreesmith7613]

Thanks, Ivan. 🙂

[@dustcommander100]

I sure hope the distance between cam and sensor isn't changing. That would mean the cam was moving, maybe because the bearing surface is worn away? Surely not......

[@baxrok2.]

Thanks Ivan!

[@billziegmond4943]

I'd start with a relearn on cam crank. Quick and easy to do. Then revisit the scope data.

[@garybaughman7099]

Ivan I was working on a 2016 Jeep Wrangler RHD 3.6l with an Autel scan tool. I would assume all scan tools would offer the same special functions. But I found this vehicle/ engine offered exhaust phaser 1 and 2 cleaning and intake phaser 1 and 2 cleaning functions on the scan tool. You might try them along with a cam crank relearn afterwards. It seems stupid, but after I ran the four of these cleaning special functions and a cam crank relearn a cold start misfire I had been working on for a long time no longer happened after I ran these.

[@KentDiego]

That is a tough one. Would hate to see replacing the cam shaft did not fix.

[@davidraezer5937]

Sounds like low oil pressure at the phasers. Don’t know how the phasers get oil on this engine but I wonder if wear on cam journals is causing low oil pressure. Like the Ford Triton engine. Maybe you could get away with new heads and a timing set. Probably why dealer wants to swap engines. One thing for sure any repair attempts you will need a wedding ring but you will be married to it. Guys that wrench will know what I mean.

[@northernpatriot9078]

Wow what would bernie say interesting can only think valve train problem sprung spring or somthing not sure how to explain it to customer 😮! But we got break it down and investigate again eh ivan your a beast im sure you will have a solution ❤

[@donkaiser6704]

The symptoms do seem to suggest air gap.... It will be interesting to see what you ultimately find!

[@2468pdv]

Looks the phaser is dithering in an uncontroled manner when oil pressure controlled. The start up rattle is wrong...they are locked mechanically and only release when oil control retracts the pin.

[@scottcowen4071]

Chain strech and if it has the tensioner between the cams if it is oscillating in and out could cause cam to slow down and speed up causing degree shiftin and timing extensions After looking at chain design the it has separate chains for left and right bank leads me back to tensioner failure causing chain slack when valves need pushed causing extended cam degreeing

[@RussellMitchell-c9d]

cylinder has been shaved shortening the distance the cam rotates in reference to oyher

[@litz13]

Ivan, the obvious solution here is to install a 4.0 inline six, and their problems will vanish forever. (other than oil leaks and sounding like a tractor, that is)