Should We Take Miraculous Stories Literally? (Jonathan Pageau)

[@TheTradDadShow]

Thinking that miracles are just misunderstood scientific phenomena is against the very definition of a miracle which is supernatural and outside of the natural order

[@Shedcats]

The categories "scientific phenomena" and "natural order" are misplaced and not the dichotomy that is useful when talking about miracles. Pageau struggles to give a clear answer here because he has a more elaborate conception of mysticism which is absent in this show and most mainstream catholic discussion.

[@michaeloakland4665]

Pageau seems to be overthinking the very basics of the Christian faith. Jesus rose from the dead bodily. Supernatural, yes. Complicated, no.

[@arthurdanzi404]

And yet he wasn't readily recognized by people who had lived with him for years. He would also magically pop in and out of places.

[@thewordbecameflesh6613]

@@arthurdanzi404 Miracle and magic do not coexist.

[@Prepping-for-Heaven]

@@thewordbecameflesh6613 I agree. Using any form of the word "magic" when speaking of spiritual things, denegrates the pure Mystery of God and the spiritual realm.

[@debbieoneal3744]

Why wouldn’t a supernatural-Creator God , be able to preform miracles and intervene in man’s lives, Salvation doesn’t make sense without the supernatural!

[@Deadndtatted]

In Christianity we use reason and logic, we are to avoid superstition

[@AscanioCrudo]

​@@Deadndtatted but if there is a God, then it's perfectly logical and plausible for him to do the supernatural

[@kanya14]

​@AscanioCrudoSometimes the supernatural functions within the meaning of the story. It's as if, the miracles God performs or the prophets perform are in a sense, the reality of the stories manifested and so they're as natural as it gets. If we are united within the Source and within the stories then Christ's words in John 14:12 are true and become the norm.

[@foolish-steve-s]

Honestly a pretty good explanation. Jesus says that unless we become like little children we can't enter heaven. I think a part of it is believing like children too. You tell a child something crazy happened and he will believe you. We ought to learn more from them.

[@Bobby_Maggadino]

Yes! Modernity has almost wiped away the spirit realm and we are living under a veil right now that’s actually fading now as we speak! We are in the end times. The Creatures and beasts of the earth are coming back and like it says in revelations they will “stop the hearts of man”

[@byrondickens]

Johnathan makes a great point about reading what the text actually says and neither reading things that aren't in it or leaving things out. The Exodus narrative is a prime example. For example, the " parting of the Red Sea." It didn't part, a strong wind blew all night and pushed the water out, leaving a passable seabed that the Israelites crossed the next day. Furthermore, I have seen "skeptics" try to debunk this by pointing out how deep the Red Sea is, that this would have been the equivalent of descending and then climbing back up a very steep and high mountain - as if the event happened at the deepest and widest point. But here again, if you actually read the text they arrived at a place called "Mara" when they got to the other side. Well, look on a map and you see that it is way up north where it is relatively shallow. Also, there's nothing in the text about the Israelites wandering around lost, not knowing where they were, for 40 years. ("What's the matter, your 'omnigod' doesn't know how to read a map?" I've actually seen that more than once) Once again, if you actually read the story, the Israelites appear to know exactly where they are and where they're going. It is only after their disobedience upon arriving at the Canaan border that they are punished by not being allowed to enter for 40 years. This literall level of the text is of course the container for the deeper symbolic meanings of "rescue from slavery," "crossing the sea" and "in the desert for 40 years."

[@davy1972]

I respect how the question is asked. No fear or superstition that God would be bothered by such curiosity, but saying, "Hey, this sounds like BS." And then, how Pageau answers puts you in a place where your are tasked with understanding what is actually being said. Especially with biblical texts, we often look so hard for that one piece of "truth" that would silence all the disbelief.

[@The_Legend_Himself]

If a miracle is just a misunderstood scientific phenomena it is not a miracle

[@mjh277]

That’s not necessarily true

[@Phrigmeat]

Is that what you think Jonathan said?

[@TheFansOfFiction]

well, if it is _just_ a misunderstood scientific phenomena, then it isn't a miracle if your definition of miracle strictly excludes non-miraculous divine intervention, and may not be if it does. But there is no reason to believe that God would not enact a miracle through an established natural phenomenon.

[@AS-fu1kd]

I'm very much a Thomas, myself. Even when shown divine signs, i still find myself doubting at every turn. I wish it was easy for me to believe.

[@spacesciencelab]

It's very confusing for me that he believes in the parting of the Red Sea but finds it difficult for other miracles. I mean, the parting of the Red Sea is a big miracle, like the epitome of miracles, so it's confusing for him to say that.

[@williamsmith8790]

The Bible is a supernatural book. If you take the supernatural out of it then it’s just a self help pamphlet.

[@WyattTFdude]

The Bible is very clear on what actually happened versus a parable.

[@ThatBoomerDude56]

Yes. And in the earliest full existent copy of the Gospels, the apostle Mark, who apparently wrote the earliest Gospel account, apparently does not know that anyone ever saw Jesus after the resurrection.

[@baselius662]

​@ThatBoomerDude56 yeah but the letters of Saint Paul, all of which were written before Mark, does mention the resurrection. And does mention that if Chrsit did not rise from the dead their faith would be I'm vain.

[@ThatBoomerDude56]

@@baselius662 The "yeah but" is interesting. But if Mark's gospel is accurate, then *WHY* did Mark not consider the physical resurrection of Jesus and the physical meeting of Jesus with the apostles afterwards to be at all significant? If that question doesn't raise an issue in your mind, then your "faith" might be other than proper faith -- which should be consistent with Reason. This is only one of the evidences that Christians misinterpret the requirements for salvation.

[@baselius662]

@ThatBoomerDude56 firstly we do not know why Mark did not include the resurrection. The Gospel ends quite abruptly. Maybe the author did not have time to finish the work. As you said maybe he did not consider it important to detail the resurrection. We simply don't know and it's up for speculation. Now I wound not find it evidence enough to disprove Christianity on mere speculation. We have the earlier letters of Paul that emphasise the resurrection of the body of Christ as fundamental to the faith. To the point that if he did not rise to the dead their faith would be in vain. Other that Paul we have the other Gospels.

[@ThatBoomerDude56]

@@baselius662 I am not claiming to "disprove" anything. And I don't even know what it would mean to "disprove Christianity." I'm just raising rational questions that are part of what need to be considered if one is to consider their "faith" to be rational. What is even meant by "faith" if it is clear from the Bible that God does not even intend knowledge of scripture or the events that are recorded in it to be required for salvation?

[@77agape]

finally that's an awesome little discussion starts slow but make the point very well !

[@LucíaFuentes-c5p]

My problem with miracles and the supernatural is that if I’m willing to believe in something as impossible as the splitting of the Red Sea or a resurrection after three days of death, then who am I, to criticize people who believe in vampires, unicorns, or werewolves? And that, for me, is a problem because it makes me feel like everything is possible and my reality is out of control. As much as I try, I can’t see how to change this perspective.

[@polodude19]

Everyone has faith, even you. We just may be blind to it. Ask yourself, “what do I sacrifice the most for?” Modern sacrifice can be your sacrifice of your time, effort, or money. Now ask yourself, “why am I doing that?” If you don’t know then you are sacrificing a lot to a goal you haven’t thought much about. If you do know why you are sacrificing a lot to that end, then you most certainly have faith that what you are sacrificing the most toward is worth it, or in other words, your sacrifice will lead to fulfillment. I’ve noticed most people who don’t know what they have put their faith in and aimed their life at typically aims their life at 1 of 4 things; Money, Power, Fame, Pleasure. Lots of people have faith that these 4 pursuits justify their life or will lead to fulfillment. But it’s all still a faith.

[@CammyFries]

Yes, anything is possible, but in a way that is controlled by the only one who makes it possible in the first place. Heaven and earth were created by a God who is all knowing all loving and all powerful. Could he make unicorns? Yes because he is all powerful, but he wouldn't if there was no reason for it. What I'm saying is that the existence of the supernatural is not random. It has an intelligent creator. Would Jesus conquer death and rise again? Yeah there's a reason for that. Would he make werewolves? Well probably not, I sure don't see why

[@ellenlatanzi5536]

Matt, I think your question is excellent and I love your being direct about it. As an Orthodox Christian, I don't accept a lot of hagiography about Saints, and that's okay. The lives of the Saints have often been embellished and its perfectly acceptable to question the validity of certain claims.

[@truthspeaker1558]

Matt, we find it hard to believe because of many reasons, the chief being we are too educated. We reason too much, analyze too much, THINK too much. By that time God passes us by. Stop thinking and start believing. Also maybe you have not personally experienced miracles in your life. Ask God to do some miracles in your life. You will find it much easier to believe then. Having said that remember faith is the conviction of things not seen... Stay blessed. God bless you abundantly. Shalom.

[@francislang8868]

Real faith is foolishness to those who don’t really believe . Is God real, or is He not? Who is the God you profess to worship?

[@AnthonyFransella]

If you think there's anything beyond this physical life then you shouldn't have any problem with any kind of other "supernatural" event.

[@msgoody2shoes959]

I like your honesty.

[@tedclemens4093]

Jesus often spoke in parables for the very reason Pageau explains. Pay sharp attention to what happened. But the meaning of the story is more important to understand than what happened.

[@spacesciencelab]

6:55 As Jonathan repeats what JP has been saying, I think he has been spending too much time with him. I get that he doesn't know what it is, but it sounds strange. What they should be saying is that it is ineffable. People will then understand where they're coming from if they say that it is ineffable.

[@fwenfwemer2145]

Nice pushback question from Matt. The answer given doesn’t seem to be very strong from Jonathan’s pov. “It’s BS”…very compelling.

[@caro1ns]

I would just ask you Matt: in 500 years, can you imagine a guy like yourself saying, “I know the story of the miracle of the sun at Fatima, but I just don’t believe it.”

[@boethius8114]

Seeking a materialist scientific explanation for a miracle at a fundamental level is limiting Gods capacity to act in a way that we’re capable of understanding mechanically. There is an implicit assertion in this desire - that we’re capable of understanding the totality of reality which, which is obviously absurd.

[@Prepping-for-Heaven]

St. Thomas had doubts and questioned the Ressurection. But, what did Jesus say to him? [John 20:27-29] "Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing. 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. 29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed." If a Roman soldier (Longinus) put a lance straight through His Heart, then there can be no doubt that He was definitely dead on the Cross. So, if anyone reads a story of a miracle in the Bible or in any book about a saint of the Catholic Church, they should remember the story of St. Thomas and cast aside all their doubts.

[@draso19]

I thing that everybody who say something like "yeah, I beleive in Jesus, but there must be some explanation what happened with that resurrection or miracles........" in reality they dont believe full. It is similar as Jow ROgan sain on Wes Huff episode recently, that "imagine Jesus would come now, when all AI, deep fake etc..none will believe it is true..." liek really...all powerful god, creator of everything would have problems to manifest him self...no brothers, we all will now for sure one day.

[@windsongshf]

I'm more confused than ever now. 😮

[@danielloo9268]

What's the definition of a miracle?

[@ethan-sq6zv]

Good grief I love Jonathan Pageau

[@draso19]

this comment section really needs some Wes Huff treatment and explanation to all users who try to be smart or know it all..just saying.

[@lohi172]

Maybe you’ve addressed it already but what’s up with the cussing? I suppose there’s no verse that directly says not to do it but most Christians see it as vulgar talk and worldly.

[@katherineneville5304]

It’s like asking to prove how you know you love your spouse, or your child. Because. Be-cause: the cause is found in the fact of the existence of the Love. God tells Moses His name is I Am. And He is Creative: we and everything in the world is a story: just listen.

[@john-paulgies4313]

Touched on it, but too briefly. Whatever else, we DO know what the Resurrection is. Luke 24:36-43.

[@tshurte1]

It’s so amazing that the language that’s not allowed on these comments, comes out of the guest. The religion of rhetoric.

[@RonanAquilius]

Lol this guy sounds like Jordan Peterson "I believe in the bodily resurrection, but I don't know what that means"

[@tsPsalm86]

This made me so sad. You do not believe the almighty merciful magnificent Lord is capable of communicating to souls in the realm beyond the natural?

[@DCo-g6q]

The God who created the Universe and everything in it logically would have no problem with your piddly little miracle Matt.

[@Jimmy-iy9pl]

Many of these saint stories are simply spiritual historical fiction. Maybe some aren't, like the very early ones, and they preserve genuine memories of the saints' lives (including some miraculous ones), but when you're writing a bio centuries after the person has gone on...how would you even know any of these details you're including in your stories if not from earlier sources or your imagination?

[@PerilsAbound]

Jonathan, I love you brother, but your explanation did not suffice. It sounded to me like, with all due respect, you kind of undermined biblical stories to exemplify and defend Catholic traditions... I too feel that some of these stories are bologna. Whereas the biblical narrative is overwhelmingly meaningful and intentional.

[@joolz5747]

I think Matt Fred has gone back to the way he was originally with a little bit more knowledge that’s all. Matt, you are a person that has had an addiction. You are really rough around the edges in my humble opinion. I don’t see the recovery that I’ve seen and others with those situation’s. Once again, you’re not reaching in my opinion, the highest good. You are bringing people down to your level and not reaching up higher and bringing us up. So you like to swear so you like to drink so you like to do whatever you like to do….well that’s not necessarily what is the highest good . And it’s not biblical either so I find you embarrassing. I used to be careful watching you And hoping that you would clean up your act a little bit I think you’re being tempted and I think you’re falling into the trap because oh just a little bit of this is OK well it isn’t. You’re an example to young people on that station and I don’t want any of my family to watch it when they’re young that’s for sure and I don’t even wanna watch you when I’m old. That’s really sad because I didn’t feel that way forever. Sometimes you do great and sometimes you don’t but remember you’re speaking to zillions of people out there and I don’t know what to say except that I’m very disappointed in you.

[@Le_Kinho]

Love Pageau but this just seems intellectually dishonest. Jordan Peterson-esque convoluted thinking shrouded in a sort of pseudo-intellectual apathy. Apathetic to whether or not truth exists or not. A simple “I don’t know, but I believe” seems a much more honest response.

[@immortalityprjct]

Our lack of knowledge and necessity for belief is in mirror with our sin, to know is to be absent of sin and present with God. This is why science cannot prove miracles, because science does not remove sin from our hearts

[@jacquedegatineau9037]

I think he did say just that. "I don't know, but I believe".

Thats EXACTLY what Pageau is saying!

[@ThatBoomerDude56]

The earliest version of the Gospel of Mark doesn't even mention that any of the apostles even saw Jesus after his resurrection. It's just a little bit strange that Mark, if he was an actual apostle, would leave out the greatest encounter in his lifetime that was the greatest proof of the greatest event in the history of the world.

[@jl4018]

Was Mark there? I did not think he was there. I thought he was a disciple of Peter but I could be mistaken.

[@ThatBoomerDude56]

@@jl4018 So Peter didn't tell Mark that he saw Jesus physically after the resurrection? That's about the strangest thing I've ever heard.

[@IsaiahWilson-k4o]

Who cares? Lol what is this suppose to prove?

[@IsaiahWilson-k4o]

Like it mentions the empty tomb which strongly implies ressurection and includes the testimony of women which at that time was considered unreliable witnesses and if an author wanted to have people believe in a story the last thing you would do is have women being the primary witnesses

[@ThatBoomerDude56]

@@IsaiahWilson-k4o So you're saying that Peter and other apostles met with Jesus after the resurrection and (1) didn't bother to tell Mark because Peter didn't think it was important? or (2) Mark didn't think it was really interesting that Peter met with the resurrected Jesus? I'm really curious. Please tell me: Which of those two makes the most sense to you? *(There is not another option.)*

[@LOSTFOOTAGE]

Eastern Phronema vs. Western intellect

[@lucasbaldwin4785]

I love Christian men talking deep apologetics and calling bullshit bullshit

[@RLBays]

Should we take miraculous stories literally? No

[@1Hope4All]

A long time ago, I didn't like this guy, Matt. I started to give this guy a chance. But only because of some of his guests on this podcast. Now I know why I never really liked this guy. 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️ O ye of little faith!