Traction Control ! Bad For Your Engine ?

SME Merch! www.stevemorrisengines.com
To Become a Channel Member - / stevemorrisracing

[@peejay1981]

As a control systems engineer this shows an important point most people miss - Don't try and control a physical system faster than it can respond! It usually doesn't end well. I would be interested to know what would happen if the traction control input could be rate limited - ie. instead of oscillating wildly between 27 and 9, do it "slowly" over 0.3 seconds or something.

[@coldmoonlight6361]

I thought critically once. It hurt my brain and I got yelled at.

[@sirtaylor2569]

Hello Steve I'm not a racer. I'm not a huge car guy. Heck I haven't even owned a car the past 5 years. But your content still speaks to me and I enjoy it so much! Keep doing what you're doing with youtube, your personality, knowledge and passion to teach attracts people from all sorts of fields. much love from switzerland

[@mr-js9is]

Same here. I love learning new things and this man is full of knowledge and mighty fine at explaining it! 👌🏽

[@johnnienitro6812]

OMG......

[@Truth-And-Freedom]

Give me some of that nazi gold !

[@markellis796]

Well explained Steve, and in layman's terms that actually makes sense, this channel just gets better and better.

[@Cliff_Anderson]

Great stuff...not to mention the torsional vibrations through the drivetrain as the engine is speeding up and slowing down on a super fine level from moment to moment...

[@WACKOJACKO6648]

Your description makes a ton of sense. Getting fuel pushed into the rings when it pulls it back and then giving it full load is a great way to detonate in your ring lands.

[@ssnerd583]

I started out tuning on MegaSquirt and Hondata and UTEC and several others, back in the day...bloody hell but was a long ride learning how to street tune, a ride through a good few motors...... and not having to pull EPROM's and build a flashing jig was an EPIC advancement(for MOST tuning, anyway)...anyway.....I have known some pretty great tuners over the years, and I can tell you this from my experience over the last 30ish years. I have seen some maps and driven some cars that were supposed to be 'tuned' by 'somebody who is supposed to know what they were doing' who OBVIOUSLY didnt....seeing Steve pull apart this tune to SHOW why it could have been done better is a joy to watch!!!! I used to call these wonky timing issues created by guys who really didnt KNOW... 'timing cliffs'....and then 'lets watch this tune fall off the cliff!!!' and then the magic smoke ensues and.....yeah.... When Steve speaks, LISTEN TO EVERY WORD. You WILL profit. Steve, you get me wanting to dust off the old TOUGHBOOK laptop and cables and start data logging again....lol i wonder if it would all still work... 0_o

[@chrisobrien9334]

That’s one Smart Mofo right there. Luv the intricate detail on the amount of times the engine actually does cycles. Thanks mate. Keep this coming. I’m running a FT system and can learn so much from it. 🇦🇺🇦🇺

[@garytull7730]

Very interesting. Would love to see a pic of the piston damage caused by this.

[@stacy6014]

If its the one on the opening pic, its fucked up. I just noticed it when I was going to click on the video. Steve would have to confirm that its the same one. Joe

[@deesunshine9507]

Makes sense. You use the same timing fluctuations to create heat at low rpm to help build boost quicker (hotter exhaust). If the timing is doing this same type of fluctuation at high rpm. It's going to keep building excess heat, as your egt's show. Man, that's cool to see you break down and then extrapolate the root cause/s of the failure/s using blended data streams. You can literally see it without having to model it. IE: You know your cr@p. Always entertaining! Thank You

[@gato69evo]

Now imagine, on the 2 step it's making like 10/15 pounds... and suddenly it's making 35...45...with the same kind of timing fluctuation... crazy.

[@briananderson5284]

Thanks again Professor Morris, another great lesson today !!!

[@johnbob8465]

Steve I am so fascinated with your knowledge, keep it up I am turning 65 in November and being a retired mechanic after 48 years I totally understand your thought process in figuring out these issues, and yes I forget a lot of stuff keep your brain alive as I am relaxing a lot more now and enjoying life here in Arizona..

[@davidreed6070]

That was a very good lesson, Steve, thank you.

[@lowbudgetbob1155]

I have a Gen3 Hemi with an EFI Source Goldbox and use Tuner Studio to program everything. I'm a dummy when it comes to the technical stuff and have had help from someone who's learning me on how to use it. I find all this technical stuff that you show very informing. I'll never use traction control but when you explain things like you do I can understand them and it makes sense enough I can apply some of it to what I'm doing.

[@kenwillis8487]

He’s not saying don’t use traction control, he’s saying don’t use it incorrectly! This car was using the traction control to make the entire pass! Even Steve uses traction control!

[@wobblysauce]

This has big swings of timing, it is like fuel correction a little is fine but a lot is bad.

[@ssnerd583]

make MANY fine adjustments, KNOW which map is which!!!.....keep all your datalogs!!! KNOCK is BAD....dont let it do that.... and if you cant afford to toast the motor.....STOP....until you can afford to toast the motor. Especially if its FI

[@dalelc43]

Your learning someone is teaching you. 🙄🙄

[@lt1nut]

@@dalelc43 You're not using your apostrophe. (My smartazz couldn't resist anD my meds haven't kicked in yet.)🙃😉

[@williameisenman5538]

you are definitely, one smart man, Mr. Steve Morris. Hopefully, the customer will wise up and listen to you.

[@Crazyhorseracing461]

Thanks Steve for really going through and explaining this to us👍👍👍

[@beeeennnnnnn]

Steve back with some knowledge bombs!

[@jestablitz3804]

That was RAD, i love when you explain data like that. Very educational. Keep doin what your doin !

[@Hot_Mess]

Thanks for putting this information out! I'm just getting back into the serious racing scene after being gone for about 20 years. As it said "back in the day" we ran carbs and didn't have these fancy electronics and traction control back then was the heaviness of your right foot which the engine could keep up with. These fast electronics are capable of switching 200 times per second and making those massive swings is going to lead to carnage. I'm betting it's more than just a couple of pistons. I wouldn't be surprised if the bearings didn't suffer due to harmonics as well. My theory is to leave the traction control loose to prevent MAJOR wheel slippage in the first 3 seconds of the run (on a mid 5 second car 1/8 mile) but allow a little wheel speed. Engines are expensive, WAY more than any 10 purses you could potentially win!

[@Jeffsa12]

While the TC is pulling 1/2 the power out, it's putting 2X normal heat into the pistons and combustion chambers for a total of what, ~8 seconds (staging+run) before letting the engine put out max HP the last 1/2 second. It's too hot and late at that point to expect max power output, detonation/meltdown is inevitable. Look up 2618 aluminum properties at 500-600 degrees F. It'll need unobtanium internals to withstand that torture test.

[@danmyers9372]

Flipping the light switch on and off as fast as you can is hard on stuff! Guess that is why dad yelled at us when we did that as kids. 😉

[@CS_247]

I just love watching this guy talk sense. Clever man.

[@Map71Vette]

I've always said this with electronic controls and nannies on cars. You can make a car fast with electronic wizardry, but it's a lot better to design it to be "mechanically" fast to start with. Traction and stability control are amazing things, but they are no replacement for a car designed to go fast without them.

[@OCtheG]

Couldn’t agree more. Feels like you need to custom build these days to get the vehicle you actually want.

[@captainobvious9188]

I’m all for electronic controls, I’ve ran electronic controls for years and it just has to be tuned properly like everything else. However, it’s going to amplify characteristics of whatever your base mechanical traits are to begin with. I hate electronic aids as a band-aid, they work wonderfully to put a razor edge on an already fine sword though.

[@Map71Vette]

@@captainobvious9188 Yeah, I would agree with that. Fuel injection is a wonderful thing and lets you turn a lot of dials and play with a lot of things that are difficult or impossible to do with a typical carb for insurance. But agreed you need to tune them right to start with. It would be like throwing a generic tune in a car and letting O2 feedback do all the work. Yes, it might function, but it's always going to be reactive and trying to "fix" things, not run directly to begin with.

[@chrisbradley3224]

This is just a flawed control system. A lot of tuners / mechanics / software devs etc. never had a control systems engineering course and this is what you get. If you want a system where you can let it do the work for you and ride it right on the edge perfectly you need far higher sampling rate and effective system bandwidth than most ICE automotive traction control systems can offer. Tesla is a good example, you can stand on the pedal and they just give you everything the surface and tires can give. The wonders of a stable control system with high enough bandwidth.

[@smythiegato]

This is amazing stuff Steve. Thanks for sharing

[@jordantrujillo293]

That is some great information. And put in a way that I never thought of, thank you for sharing to make us all better racers, tuners, or enthusiasts!

[@Liammcgowan]

it's the changes to timing causing flux on valve return time which is causing induction pressure flux which then resonates into rich/lean per length of intake. the turbulence evens itself out by way of the amount of surface area available. imagine a garden hose with low water pressure, if you hold it vertically over a container with water in it, at the correct distance for the pressure and flow rate it will run silently with almost no surface ripples. too far away and the resistance of the turbulent air disrupts the density of the water coming out of the hose which then equalizes against the surface tension of the water, making noise and turbulence.. same kind of thing but in this example its making most cylinders far too rich and the other 2 far too lean. (path of least resistance gets the induction.) tell him to take longer to build the boost or adjust his boost controller to be more agressive with less timing pull?

[@Liammcgowan]

also, the thermal conduction to the temperature sensors at fluxing density and pressure (due to rich / lean / vapour, low pressure / no vapour, high pressure) that last part where the temperatures spike is more likely just the temperature sensor being able to function properly when the flux stops. the cylinders were accumulating temperature the whole time. short time high energy proportions are quadratic afaik.. the likelyhood of the temperature reading measuring accurately such a peak is low because the amount of extra energy at the already leaned out cylinders required would be huge. like, a stick or three of dynamite extra energy spread over that last 0.2 seconds.

[@Liammcgowan]

108 sticks of dynamite in 1 gallon of methanol. for reference.

[@danmyers9372]

They really can’t take any longer to build boost. 6 seconds is already really pushing it. Remember he has about 7 seconds to get into the beams once his opponent lights his bulbs (assuming they aren’t using “courtesy”staging). And smart opponents will take note of a very slow spooling turbo car and can take advantage of it when staging. Retarding the timing like what Steve showed (and was not concerned about) to build boost prior to staging is not the problem. The engine is at much lower rpm’s and not under any load. It’s the almost on/off timing during the run that is creating the problem.

[@stevenraymer6682]

Gosh you are the smartest man on the earth thank you Steve for some well learned content

[@gregscott9170]

Thanks Steve! Love the analytical approach to problems.

[@rodgersrcaviation2785]

Steve I could work for you and have a ton of fun learning and wrenching on these super nice rides. 25 yr auto tech shop owner here! I absolutely envy your ability to teach! Your explanations make total sense and the way you convey them is fantastic! I also admire that what appears to be your desk is still in the shop and not a closed off from the world office space. Keep ‘em coming. Maybe we will meet some day

[@br549rdr]

Thank you so much for this. You teach were I can understand 💪

[@shellandhuzz8783]

Love the explanation Steve and all makes perfect sense

[@bubbadw60]

Watching this helped me understand my engine failure more in depth. I do appreciate that! It also will help me set up a better tune, and understand the mechanical limitations of my setup. Great info!

[@ChambersRacing9862]

We love you Steve !!!

[@peterfusco2596]

Really enlightening Steve lot of knowledge in your field

[@kentlypeterman2414]

Great lesson ! Thanks for sharing .

[@winstonwright3613]

AWESOME VIDEO Steve! I've never heard this concept (which has been touched on by others) explained so perfectly before. EVERYone tuning an engine for quartermile should understand this.

[@OPFOR109]

Great video. Makes sense. Same deal with cleetus running around all day banging the antilag button in his new supra until it blew up lol.

[@davidreed6070]

Yeah , those guys break parts and laugh about it. I guess that's just their deal

[@ssoffshore5111]

@@davidreed6070 They have the money to piss away, plus that same crap makes them even more money making content...

[@davidreed6070]

@@ssoffshore5111 absolutely. I watch it to.

[@Sardawg1790]

Great info as always, keep it coming!

[@Heinrich_STG44]

I love these tech videos. I'm a racing fan not a driver (YET!) and I still love learning about these issues.

[@joebjr8053]

All i can say, is FREAKIN AWESOME, great job explaining the exact happenings inside the cylinder walls. Another fantastic informational video. Thanks Steve

[@johndoran3274]

Best tech content for tuning I’ve seen so far. I’m surprised that poor engine held out as long as it did.

[@marcjordan29]

Comes down to the. "what makes it live" steve mantra.. True wisdom. Make it last to come in first.

[@dr0zdo]

Thank you for sharing that!

[@KEIFabrication]

Brilliant! Thanks for sharing this!

[@deanpaidas8089]

Steve I’m learning so much from your channel. Even though lm 68 years old and drive a 60s muscle car I’m learning something new on every episode. BTW I only live 15 minutes from Rosslers shop and it’s great to hear a local guy being mentioned on your channel. Keep teaching!

[@briansterken6269]

Great video! I'd like to see more like this, maybe a series on reading data logs and what to change to correct the issue.

[@thomaslamb1534]

I learn so much from this channel! Thanks Steve

[@vehdynam]

That was very interesting and informative; plus it makes sense the way you describe it. Very much appreciated, thanks Steve.

[@flyonbyya]

Interesting Given the explanation, I assume the piston either melted or suffered detonation damage…or both

[@danmyers9372]

I’m no professional engine builder like Steve but my guess is it most likely I would think it got too hot from the excessive timing retard (the excessive exhaust temps) but detonation is also possible due to excess fuel in the chambers that suddenly fires earlier when the timing goes back up. So probably both like you said! 😉

[@danieljameson8000]

Makes you wonder (without knowing the valve event timing and fuel type) if its pulled enough timing to afterburn the cyls, goes whoosh instead of bang. Cool follow up video would be of the piston and ring lands. Drill the top of the pistons to see if there was enough heat/cold cycling to cause annealing. --very instructional video (grabs laptop to change tune ;))

[@danmyers9372]

That is exactly why tuners retard timing to get the turbo(s) to spool. Retarding the timing results in the bang happening so late that a lot of the bang goes out the exhaust ports which both heats up and accelerates the exhaust pulses being fed to the turbine side of the turbo. Manual trans turbo cars have historically gotten the most extreme with this on the starting line given they have nothing to push against like a converter to build boost. Hence why those suckers typically really bang and pop on the starting line.

[@given0fox968]

@@danmyers9372exactly as I (longtime racing fan/viewer) envisioned was happening. I’ve also wondered how much leftover fuel detention in the pipes was happening in some of these tunes.

[@stormyyoung6344]

Thanks for teaching today Steve

[@christopherbarrett8710]

As always great information! Thanks Steve

[@marcmalek5956]

Great way to enlighten us on how this works. Love the videos. Keep up the great work and increasing your knowledge and ours.

[@AB-80X]

This was really a nice “This just needed to be said” style video. Good work racing brother

[@beckyumphrey2626]

Excellent technical information. Thank you.

[@josephmatuszak3855]

Awesome tutorial Steve!

[@isaachollmann4145]

Super educational! Appreciate the break down! And teaching us this critical information.

[@lawnmowerman25]

Good explanation! Thanks for the info.

[@colbysheppard3682]

Dang it! I learned something! Thanks Steve!

[@demotors070161]

Super video. Great explanation of this aspect of tuning!

[@tommccarthy7227]

Great information and knowledge!

[@davidresar8256]

Excellent video! Thank you for sharing!

[@charliehupp5385]

Thanks Steve very very much for showing us some things us professionals would never know.. Good luck

[@FranklinRoads]

I am not a racer but I love your channel and all the info you put out. Thank you!

[@padders1068]

Steve, thanks for yet another masterclass! 🙂

[@terrybeyer4239]

Thank you Steve! God bless your family at home and at work...

[@danmyers9372]

Great explanation Steve.

[@RCinginSC]

Super interesting breakdown. Well done 👍

[@nhra7110]

Great lesson there!

[@jimlaing8580]

Brilliant! I like the way you dumb it down for us. It makes perfect sense when explained correctly. Thank you.

[@benrossbach6501]

Absolutely love and appreciate your time and knowledge.

[@kidkv]

Thanks for the tip, Steve 😊

[@jeffreyworthington7558]

Excellent Tech. Keep it coming!

[@sbcbuilder4279]

Thank you Professor Steve for this invaluable math lesson.

[@gafrers]

Always quality explanations

[@keithpardini9065]

Brother Steve, you're a frickin' genius!

[@BigRob345]

Learn something new everyday! Interesting stuff Steve

[@bigblockjess617]

Another awesome video steve. Not 1 video you have done is the same as the last. Keep up the amazing work man

[@JR15A2]

This was a very interesting and insightful video!

[@mr2chet527]

Great content as always!

[@tomasgodines6508]

Good info Steve 👍🏽

[@Stephenc4877]

This sort of info is the whole reason I love your Channel

[@stevemorrisracing]

😁

[@ksart9188]

AWSOME video Steve. Love the tech

[@robertdemers8508]

Steve, you are one smart SOB. Very entertaining and informative. Thanks.

[@ryangreen7918]

I feel like I'm an apprentice watching Steve, I've learnt so much

[@TXGunGeek]

This is awesome. Great to dig into the logs and figure out what is going on.

[@scrotiemcboogerballs1981]

Great video love learning from you buddy thanks for sharing

[@amypowers5340]

Great tech “math” videos. Love the info and learning. Thanks

[@pedrotheswift5937]

Love these Vids,, Thanks Steve!!

[@JoshStLouis314]

Wow, that was really well explained. Thanks Steve.

[@GrandPitoVic]

That is awesome info brother

[@warrenmichael918]

Not a racer but i watch several channels that are but this was the first time i really understood how the TC works while running down the track.

[@rubysmine592]

Hey Steve, this is the first video of yours I've seen but I have to say I really do enjoy this style of video, would love to see more maybe a series where you look at peoples datalogs from tuned cars that gone boom. Really interesting having the final moments of the engines life explained and how it maybe could have been avoided

[@scottsigmon926]

Very well explained sir

[@timpeacock9583]

Great job explaining that .

[@r6duck]

Informative. Well stated thanks.

[@customrefinishersaustralia4747]

This makes alot of sense!!

[@johnshroyer1095]

Man it makes sense when explained from a working point of view.

[@douglashartsaw3286]

Thanx Steve. I think I know how engines work until I hear you explain something. Thank you for not only sharing your knowledge with us but also for the way you do it. I wish I could get your voice on my GPS maps app, I would never have to reroute.

[@stevemorrisracing]

😂

[@stevemorrisracing]

If you new how bad my direction giving is!

[@Profabdesigns]

Saving my engine parts 1 day at a time, with Dr. Steve!! Dang I have learned a lot from you brother! I know you have learned a lot in your walk as well. I truly enjoyed this video, thank you Sir. Now if I only had a hot rod with enough power for traction control… wha wha wha.

[@Altanabstick]

Incredibly helpful. I always wondered why racers didn't just use traction control and always adjusted boost. Now I know. Thanks!