Freezing Sump Pump Outlet Solution Part 2 of 2

[@stanmiller3676]

Great video and solution!

[@POPPASHANGO]

Thank you. We no longer live there. But we never had another incident in 5 winters. I am pretty solid in believing it works.

[@lgarner9524]

I truly enjoyed the videos. Good problem solving!

[@Honore262]

I did this for my basement sump pump and it works great thank you very much it pumped all winter with NO freezing up this is a great thank you should have a business i this line

[@POPPASHANGO]

I am glad this helped you and thank you! I have never had an issue I've done this. At one point I thought I would market it... But then I decided to offer my idea for solution here would help a lot more good folks.

[@modoperandi2020]

Great idea Poppashango. I have the same problem. I will take your solution and modify it slightly. I will add the T-joint 1 foot below the bend to the exit at the top and use a small diameter tube as drain and that tube will go back to the sump pit.

[@POPPASHANGO]

Sounds like a good idea. Should easily work!

[@stevehenty6379]

For what it's worth, the various air-gap solutions presume the problem is water left in the outflow tubing outside the basement. The actual problem as stated is water left in the standing pipe before it exits the basement wall. The simplest solution remains removing the check valve. But if you really want to only drain the top portion of the standing pipe without recirculating large amounts of water during the pump cycle, then severely limit the diameter of the bleeder tube to something the size of a weep hole, like 3/16" - ¼".

[@davidengelshows]

Love your ingenuity!

[@POPPASHANGO]

Thanks for the compliment! I am proud to say that I have had no issues with freezing since I have done this.

[@stevehenty6379]

Why has no one pointed out that the initial high-volume discharge through the internal drain tube is back flow from the pump pressure... negating the benefits of leaving the check valve in place.

[@POPPASHANGO]

I did think of that when I designed the system. But I found that the pressure and volume of water being forced outside was far greater than the back flow into the tank. Far more water was expelled. The evidence of that is that once the float had dropped far enough to turn the pump off, the back flow was not enough water to trip the float again. You can hear the pump has stopped and how long it takes to bring the water to level with the inner piping. Fortunately, I found the sweet spot with my measurement below the ground level outside. Going higher would risk another plug. Going lower would put even more water back into the tank and trigger the pump to cycle at a greater rate. It was literally 1 part spark of an idea, 1 part 1 part experimental, and 1 part desperation. Lol. Thanks for your thoughts.

[@stevehenty6379]

I think in your case that is probably true. You have a long length of standing pipe... maybe 20-30 feet? Back-of-the-napkin math for a ½" bleeder *inside* a 1.5" outflow pipe (which reduces the effective outflow diameter to 1.4142") indicates you pump ~12.5% more water than necessary during the pump cycle. Assuming a 5gal sump -- or more specifically, 5 gals between float top to float bottom -- this works out to the volume of water in ~92" of 1.5" pipe (1.4142" effective). It also makes your pump cycle ~89% efficient. By comparison, if you had to pump all 20-30 feet of standing water each cycle, that's 1.8 to 2.7 gals extra, or 36.5 to 54% excess water, and pump efficiency drops to 73.25% or 64.5%, respectively. It's important for others to note the efficiency gain (compared to removing the check valve) is a function of outflow pipe diameter, bleeder diameter, sump capacity (float on to float off), and outflow pipe length that retains water. As an example, for your pipe dimensions and assumed sump capacity of 5 gal, then an outflow pipe with 92" of standing water is break-even: less than 92" (7' 8") there's no benefit. Increase the sump capacity to 10 gal, and the outflow pipe break-even length increases to 184" (15' 4") . Reducing the bleeder hose to ¼" changes these break even points dramatically, and brings your pump cycle back to 97% efficient: excess water: ~2.8% break even at 3gal (my current setup): 12.25" 5gal: 20.5" 10gal: 41" Just to complete the comparison, a 3/16" bleeder... excess water: ~1.6% pump efficiency: 98.4% break even at 3g: 7" 5g: 11.75" 10g: 23.5" And of course, if the standing outflow water equals the sump size, removing the check valve is a no-go, and you have to add some kind of bleeder: 3g: ~32.5 feet 5g: ~54.5 feet 10g: ~109 feet (These lengths are for a 1.5" pipe with no bleeder hose reducing the capacity) Of course all these numbers change depending on the outflow pipe diameter, but 1.5" seems like the largest pipe residential sump pumps are likely to use.

[@MaxTunage]

Just a thought, simple as it may sound for your situation. If you go back to the original rubber clamp joint, drill a very small hole in it halfway along it's length, reinstall, and make sure it points downwards. (Put a mark on the top 180 degrees from the hole, so you can see it facing up.) When the pump is in operation, there will be a small but pressured stream of water from the hole, but the beauty of this is, the entire floor and wall cavity section of pipe will drain back into the sump to prevent freezing, but so gradually it should not stress the pump. Best of luck with all of this.

[@gerrymaddock9234]

Glad to see that worked for you. I will be doing the same in Ohio

[@POPPASHANGO]

Gerry Maddock Good luck with your project. Entering my 4th winter and have yet to have another issue...no plugs.

[@Honore262]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iXPbc5eBhpqcntE

[@MWTH37]

Thank You for the advise Did it work?

[@POPPASHANGO]

Michael Bidegain Yes! It certainly has. Since I did this we have never had the outlet get a frozen plug.

[@Honore262]

Yes it did works just fine. Not to bad to put it in it’s worth it it’s works great.

[@jimpie231]

Thanks for your inspiring video! Your Sump pump could not have burst your pipe. Most Sump pumps only create about 8 to 10 PSI (25’ of head), this is at a dead head or shut-off condition. Your rubber connection cannot withstand any real pressure, but it doesn’t have to, because your pump isn’t capable of it. The location of your Sump pump confuses me. I’m In The Chicago are in the U.S. and here all our Sump pumps are in the basement, in a corner, right next to an outside wall. The pump discharge line goes up vertically about 7 to 8’ and horizontally (by the rafters) about 3’ and you’re outside. No piping is in floors or walls. A tee can be added to the pipe where you suggest and a smaller tubing can be attached and you’re done. In my case i will add a valve in-line by the tee and will only open this valve when temperaturę goes below 15 degrees Farenheit. Your idea & How you did it Is great! Thanks.....Jim

[@fixandfoodgman6987]

Ingenious

[@POPPASHANGO]

Fix and food Gman Thanks! It has been working perfectly for 4 years strong....no freezing, no plugs and no basement floods!

[@rodneyfresh940]

What the check value? Does the hose stop it from closing. That's the part I did not understand. If the hose is going thru the check value. Help me to understand that if possible.

[@POPPASHANGO]

Hi Rodney, the check valve on my system is between the parts I created and the pump. Or simply put it is connected to the pump. Everything I did is above the check valve. The reason the check valve is close to the pump is to prevent the all of water in the line out of your house from flowing back into the tank which would mean it fills faster and your pump is running more frequently. The other reason is if your sump line goes directly to sewer, it prevents the sewer water from flowing back into your house in heavy rains and floods. My area does not connect sump lines to the sewer. So most people run hoses out to the street. I just run my hose out on to the front lawn and near my tree and it gets watered that way. Some people on the net say to just remove to check valve to prevent freezing but I would never recommend doing that especially if your line is connected to a sewer.

[@Honore262]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iXPbc5eBhpqcntE

[@davidengelshows]

You should patent this and make it a commercially available product...

[@BrianOlmsted]

Basement Systems developed a product they call the "Ice Guard" (a PVC fitting) that THEY (or your local dealer) install outside your house just after it leaves the house. he "Ice Guard" PVC fitting goes from 1.5" to 4" which should give it more room in the pipe to prevent ice from building up in the pipe (more volume) especially if it slopped properly. Also, the fitting has holes in it that allows the water to leave the pipe at the fitting right after it leaves the house in the event that the pipe freezes. Unfortunately, they charge you to install this fitting but fortunately for the internet a company called Raybend has developed a product they called the "Freeze Drain" (which is basically the same thing as the "Ice Guard" but the holes go horizontally instead of vertically) that is available on Amazon which I purchased last year and I plan on implementing this year (in the next few weeks as I'm currently digging the trench on the weekends) and it will allow me to bury the sump pump pipe under our future patio and should allow the water to escape if the pipe freezes. www.basementsystems.ca/basement/waterproofing/products/outdoor-drainage/frozen-drain.html www.joneakes.com/jons-fixit-database/1282-How-do-I-keep-a-shallow-Sump-drain-from-freezing-outdoors www.amazon.ca/Raybend-Freeze-Drain/dp/B01LXKIB5S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1525234191&sr=8-1&keywords=freeze+drain raybend.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Freeze-Drain-Spec-Sheet.pdf

[@AndreOutlaw]

From the sound of his problem the ice guard wouldn't have worked. The issue seemed to be that the pipe inside of the house was freezing right before the 90 degree bend that heads outside. So the discharge was freezing before it would have reached the ice guard.

[@jerryhrtffb]

What a mess.

[@POPPASHANGO]

Jerry Hertzberg lol.....say what you will ...but it's been working flawlessly for years now.....

[@mikec1554]

He's just a troll