Pro-Life Women vs Pro-Choice Men | Middle Ground

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CREDITS
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0:00 intro
0:23 Abortion allows men to avoid responsibility
6:07 Men can't tell women what to do with their bodies
12:33 You can be a feminist and pro-life
18:23 Abortion rights are basic human rights
24:18 Abortion is murder
36:06 Women should never be shamed for having an abortion

[@jubilee]

Hey y’all! Check out to ground.news/jubilee to spot media bias and find common ground. Subscribe through our link for less than $1/month or get 40% off unlimited access this month only!☝

[@joshuataylor3550]

It should obviously be legal. Legality doesn't encourage behaviour. Everyone makes their own decisions.

[@albertmassaquoi1539]

Do Hispanic Christians vs Hispanic non Christians next video

[@turdrhinofiend]

should women have a say in foreign policy considering it is men's bodys who will be sent to war?

[@joshuataylor3550]

​@@turdrhinofiendget a life

[@yahia9481]

Do UBI middle ground (if it s possible)

[@John-River]

Shoutout to Jubilee for listening to the audience and getting a moderator. It’s essential for debates like this.

[@sameeraakkena]

Gen was also the best person for this.

[@Random-sk6hm]

Fr I love that he stops them talking over each other whilst also encouraging them to consider their argument from a different viewpoint

[@barry963]

Yeah but not for a civil debate...@@sameeraakkena

[@GEN]

@@sameeraakkenathank you - appreciate your support

[@GEN]

@@Random-sk6hmit’s all about challenging both sides as equally as possible to consider the other side

[@treborking11]

Getting a moderator was a great move

[@Click92njttiu]

Definitely, before it was way more messy

[@palemoonlight96]

Agree, so many debates here have been undermined by fanatism in the past and it's great that someone helps minimize that

[@GEN]

thanks for watching and appreciate that. hope I was able to moderate both sides to give equal opportunity to present their points

[@imdva]

@@GEN i really love your platform, dont stop doing unbiased content we need so much more of it!!

[@chloemango3]

Disagree, you snowflakes ruined Middle ground

[@katies4226]

Personally, saying women shouldnt be shamed for having an abortion, but then calling those same women murderers doesnt make a lot of sense.

[@SilverBlO0d]

exactly!! their logic made no sense

[@Evan-ni7hb]

It’s because we know it’s a hard choice, and they made the wrong one which involved a baby dieing

[@manda73]

@@Evan-ni7hbwhere the baby?

[@Kurushimi1729]

We live in a society that encourages and celebrates abortion. It's not fair to place the blame on one specific person IMO.

[@parkees]

​@Kurushimi1729 you need new friends. I don't know anyone, nor have I ever met anyone who celebrates this procedure

[@rita8274]

The moderator being able to say "you were pressing him about this earlier" was so nice because that's one of the BIGGEST gripes I had without moderators. One person would give others a hard time but would avoid or become defensive when it was directed back at them.

[@GEN]

thank you so much!

[@scvpink5683]

Lmao blossom …

[@BillMoman]

They've always had a moderator - who do you think has been asking the questions? They have just stunk and never sat in with the group. They've been just out of camera shot.

[@rita8274]

​@@BillMoman I'd argue they had a director that supervised, but didn't actively moderate.

[@leaqln1811]

Adding a moderator really changed a lot, recent debates are much more polite and respectfull and it's refeshing to see this, wether you agree with participants or not

[@GEN]

Thank you - appreciate you watching

[@colbysyoutubechannel8023]

Yes! It definitely seems to help it live up to its name of “Middle Ground” a lot more, plus I like how he prompts them to talk about things like the pro life democrat

[@adrianahuihui8722]

It was definitely necessary after the trans debate.

[@BastardOfTheNorth]

They should have had a moderator for the trans discussion

[@smelly1060]

BORING

[@lightbulbasaur5330]

I would love to see Ex-Pro-Choicers vs Ex-Pro-Lifers in a future video

[@len-1768]

Should be fun.

[@TJrules299]

Oh that’s a great idea.

[@sjappiyah4071]

Banger of an Idea

[@qingxinn_]

YESSS ^^^ this would be a really convincing conversation

[@career5690]

I used to be pro choice but now I’m pro life.I am apart of the child free movement and society but sometimes I can see why women get abortion.

[@agnossienne]

i really don't like how cat pressed ezequiel to answer her questions with straightforward answers so she could get a 'gotcha' on him and his stance would look weaker, and then when ezequiel asked _her_ a question looking for a straightforward answer she danced around her response exactly how she criticized ezequiel for doing. it pissed me off.

[@SolitudeVolante]

I feel for her daughters, they are gonna be the ones having to deal with that behavior

[@wildninjaturtle6715]

OK calm down

[@AJ-lm5dl]

​@@SolitudeVolante Well, at least they aren't dead from abortion.

[@KCDCish]

Maybe they should have answered the question then 😂

[@Afrogirrl]

They both shoudkve answered the questions properly. It’s not that deep 😂

[@Nikki-lh1tu]

I'd love to see a Middle Ground episode with people who are pro-euthanasia and against euthanasia. The abortion debate has brought up topics surrounding the morality of life and death. I feel like it would be an interesting topic to watch unfold.

[@Random-sk6hm]

Fr and pro vs anti death penalty (they've done it before but a feature length one like this would be great)

[@gaiagruel]

Oh wait. ... anti

[@Nikki-lh1tu]

@@Random-sk6hm I couldn't agree more

[@Nikki-lh1tu]

@@Random-sk6hm it's basically the same thing...against/anti. It's just a matter of preference

[@GenvinelyAlex]

if they ever do this, it’d be the only panel I’d actually want to be on ever 😭 this is a topic that truly creates a deeper discussion about morality.

[@pho3beisaqt]

even though i didnt agree with every argument, everyone was surprisingly really well spoken

[@TeenageDirtbag8]

Agree

[@Kingofthenet2]

Definitely

[@drilltime1237]

The mexican chick was BRAINDEAD

[@imsavannahschmidt]

I’m not for abortion but I didn’t like when the woman said that the woman’s body isn’t getting hurt. There can be so much trauma and pain that comes with pregnancy. So I think we really need to have empathy for these woman. It’s a hard choice. We don’t need to tell woman that it’s no big deal to choose life. For some it’s a huge deal and it takes a lot of bravery and strength. 💕

[@twilightknight2333]

A healthy woman's body is built to give birth, if your body is being destroyed by the natural process of pregnancy and birth, then there's something wrong you that you need to have checked out before you have any more children.

[@talkingtochapri]

Facts 💯 Pregnancy damage women's body drastically, some lose their ability to control pee, it reduces women's life expectancy, it's the most painful thing women experience, it's equivalent to breaking multiple bones at once, bleeding for months, etc. This is why women gets annoyed when males who can't even have the ability to give birth are talking about it. To be honest, if males were capable of giving birth and bringing a life, there would've no such discussion, there would've been clinics everywhere. And it has been legal for years, suddenly these people became religious after male loneliness pandemic 😂 i wonder why

[@cman04]

Abortion is about hurting another body - not the woman. Letting a pregnancy continue would affect a woman's body, but that's the opposite of abortion. It's a nuanced difference.

[@Iamanicajean]

@@talkingtochapri Again the choice to lay down in bed and get pregnant was their choice. It’s all down to a choice. None of this would happen if you didn’t choose to lay down and unprotectively. it’s 2024 why can’t people be responsible and use protection like it’s seriously ridiculous that we’re still having a talk on how to make sure you don’t get pregnant. yes, there are people who can’t control her pee and guess what there’s tons of people who weren’t pregnant that can’t control their pee and guess what there’s medication for that discharge for that etc. again getting pregnant is a choice. No one forces you to unless you were raped if that’s the case that’s a different circumstances but it’s not what we’re talking about here.

[@favourito]

​​​@@IamanicajeanBut not every pregnancy is as a result of sex being unprotected though. I understand consequences however this is a bit like saying that people who drive choose/expect accidents. It's something that can happen of course, but it's not that simple. Accidents can still occur in spite of how careful one is​/precautions taken. I'm not referring to those extreme cases about rape etc.

[@simplyalex11]

Red jacket needed to be checked by the moderator. She kept cutting people off 🤣

[@dendelion8410]

@@noellefitchett Girl, youre responding to all the comments calling you out, maybe stop being so insecure and pipe down next time youre on a show

[@SolitudeVolante]

Her and Cat where the WORST I feel for their children

[@brightshining]

Debates are tricky - you get so fired up sometimes because you are responding passionately - interrupting doesn't have to mean any intent :)

[@sugarbirb5145]

@@noellefitchett you seem super calm by this response

[@lukerobinsonmedia]

Jubilee tells people on Middle Ground that they are free to cut others off

[@breezystl777]

Would love to see actual medical professionals discussing both sides of the argument. They're the ones with the best and most accurate information, and are the actual ones involved with patients going thru these choices.

[@Random-sk6hm]

Exactly, as someone who works in the medical field there are statements made by the pro-life side in this video (and a previous Jubilee video) that were medically inaccurate. Claim: A foetus has a heartbeat at 6 weeks Fact check: No, while cardiac tissue starts to pulse at around 5-6 weeks of pregnancy, registering as a heartbeat on the ultrasound, the heart has not developed yet. The heart begins to develop at 10 weeks (when it becomes a foetus) but the 4 necessary chambers that are required for a hearts function are not developed for another 7-10 weeks. Therefore, a foetus has a functioning, beating heart at 17-20 weeks (American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, 2022; American Medical Association, 2022; National Health Service, 2022; World Health Organisation, 2022; Golding, 2022; Greene et al, 2019; Mcdonald, 2019; Smyth and Kimberlee, 2021; Anderson and Anderson, 2009; Heaney, 2019) 'The sound heard during ultrasounds at six weeks is entirely manufactured by the ultrasound machine, It’s an electrical pulse that’s translated into the sound we’re hearing from the ultrasound machine' (Verma, American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology, 2022) 'The term 'fetal heartbeat' is pretty misleading' (Kerns, UCSF, 2022)

[@nectarshrub]

Any medical professional who is anti-choice shouldn't be licensed. Abortion is a medical issue. If they care so much about the ethics of it they should be in politics or law, not medicine!

[@somemedic8482]

@@Random-sk6hmso the question still remains, when does life begin? Conception? Cardiac activity?fetal movement? Heart beat? Birth?

[@dorcaskayira3362]

So medical professionals can’t have a freedom of religion too? If their faith is against abortion, they can’t have the choice to not supply the service and refer to another medical professional who can? So much for advocating for choice! Am so glad I’m a medical professional in a country where my religious freedoms are respected and I too have a choice!

[@xvgm24]

Why would a medical professional be pro-life? lmao

[@demonicchild475]

It’s very refreshing to see two disagreeing sides have a respectful conversation. That’s very rare nowadays.

[@anemonalazeta3368]

the pro-lifers always kept cutting off the other side though so how is that respectful

[@senguy]

​@@anemonalazeta3368 it definitely could have been a lot worse, i think everyone was mostly respectful especially given how different our positions were

[@PROVOCATEURSK]

All the pro-lifers would like to became dictators and rule over others.

[@noellefitchett]

Everyone was really nice, it was great to be a part of this.

[@amandaplayswow]

this is literally commented on every video lol. clearly people have respectful conversations

[@GEN]

Thanks for watching! I really enjoyed hosting/moderating this episode. Would love to hear all your thoughts on this topic 👇🏽

[@depressed-artist]

Amazing job as always Gen!!

[@hc7092]

You are fit. What’s your type?

[@titanjoc]

Congrats on the progress of your channel!

[@a.kenneth3521]

You’re a great moderator! You might consider clarifying each side’s stance on the topic at hand before beginning the prompts. This one got a little rough when trying to discern who thought what on each side. I understand a united front on an issue isn’t possible (or wanted), but the Pro-Life group didn’t understand what Pro-Choice means, and the Pro-Choice group couldn’t pin down what the Pro-Life group meant. Interesting conversation, though!

[@rashirashi04]

💀​@@hc7092

[@autumnleafhaiku9521]

If I got sexually assaulted there’s no way I would be able to carry a baby of my assaulter for 9 months then go through a painful birth costing thousands just to give away the baby cuz I wouldn’t kee it cuz I wouldn’t be able to unsee the abuser in the child.

[@TsukkiDino]

Yes wo many people dont understand how traumatizing a pregnancy can be, for normal and assaulted people. And when you dont wont to do it but dont have a other choice, many people got really depressed and other things.

[@TsukkiDino]

And of course it doesnt go for All people. But what you say is so true

[@yanivontress8189]

Understandable but usually when you give your kid to the adoption agency they pay for medical expenses.

[@WhiteMacchiato]

Don't punish the child for the sins of the father. Look at the child for who they really are..your son/daughter deserves life just as much as you do.

[@bellamorales1690]

i dont think i could EVER have an abortion myself, but i’m pro choice and that situation is different than any other because in that case it wasn’t; i had sex irresponsibly and knew i wasn’t ready for this. to be sexually assaulted is dehumanizing and being forced to go through with a pregnancy that was not a mistake but was put onto you with malicious intent is ALSO dehumanizing and i think that’s something not a lot of people talk about enough, if not at all. that situation needs more clarity and for someone who lives in texas where abortion is illegal, i’m sad that little girls and women are being put through that dehumanizing situation unnecessarily.

[@savannahcarter1212]

20:35 I really have an issue with pro-life people because of the woman in the blue shirt. The guy in the brown jacket said women should be allowed the OPPORTUNITY to determine if they wanna bring a child into the world and decide to terminate if the environment is not optimal for the child. Just because your babies had medical issues but came out fine and are doing well later in life, that’s not always the case for every family. Your anecdotal experience shouldn’t eliminate the option for everyone.

[@BellaSmith-yv4sx]

so someone that has medical issues is not worth of life?

[@victoriaelleteeh3082]

​​@@BellaSmith-yv4sx your reading comprehension skills are lacking, that's not what she said at all

[@RoVicD]

Yea, they take their own anecdoatal expirences and put it on other people. The women who had a baby when she was 18 too. It's not actually a pro life story that ended well. It's a Pro Choice story that ended well. You *chose* life. Because you had a choice than you could take an unplanned pregnancy and turn it into a positive expirience.

[@coffeeandcats8332]

Exactly. It’s not a one size fits all situation. Thankfully for her she was fine and so were her daughters, but that’s not always the situation.

[@kanamenoname210]

Idk I have an issue with ppl who say women should choose to terminate a pregnancy because there's a chance for the kid to be born with disabilities. It sounds extremely eugenics to me

[@danceforjb]

Being pregnant has only made me even more pro-choice. Forcing women to go through pregnancy and birth is cruel and if men did it, this wouldn't even be a conversation.

[@aidanaldrich7795]

How can you have a human inside you and think "Yeah, this little thing shouldn't have any human rights at all" 🥴

[@Black-Circle]

disgusting

[@nope19568]

​@@aidanaldrich7795because they understand that if you kidnapped someone and forced them to undergo what happens to a person during pregnancy that they'd be charged with many horrific felonies and its never okay to put someone through that pain

[@coneyandfriends3618]

​@@nope19568Y'all always do this. No one in the US is kidnapping women and forcing impregnation. 99% of the time, the women take the risk on their own and get pregnant.

[@introvertedbean13]

27:41 “You’re not answering the question” And YOU’RE NOT actively listening.

[@jessi-tp9fr]

and then she didn’t answer the question he asked her later on and said idk it’s hard 😭

[@TJrules299]

She’s ridiculous. She is trying to set him up which is why she’s doing this. It’s pretty ridiculous.

[@Lonnielonni]

She was looking for something to call him out on not listening to understand and it was obvious

[@Random-sk6hm]

She was looking for a 'gotcha' moment and failed

[@No-Lie-I-Want-To-Die]

Women ☕

[@ryleemathis8867]

I don't think, "If Adele can have a baby and still win a Grammy, why can't you?" is a very fair argument. One thing that wasn't really talked about was economic circumstances. Yes, the quality of life for the child is important but the quality of the mother's life is also important, if not MORE important bc her quality of life directly impacts her child's. Abortion won't get a woman out of a DV situation or cure her depression but having A BABY certainly will undoubtedly make those situations much worse.

[@aidanaldrich7795]

No innocent human life is empirically more important than another

[@CooperJW13]

@@aidanaldrich7795 agreed. That's why, with your point, it can't be said that the life of the mother is more important than the life of the child. Another point I want to make is, there is no economic status that trumps life status.

[@stardust6870]

Also, didn't Adele basically leave her husband and baby because she said she got married and had a child too young? She even wrote a song about that.

[@msnewsenior]

@@stardust6870She didn’t leave, it didn’t work out and they mutually agreed to end it

[@stardust6870]

@@msnewsenior Ah, okay. My wrong. I remember reading those articles years ago, but it was probably taken out of context.

[@lisaniiranen9087]

"it's not the woman's body that's being hurt in the situation" - meanwhile the woman's body LITERALLY is being hurt in the situation...

[@thevaccinator666]

Meanwhile, it's not about you.

[@lisaniiranen9087]

@@thevaccinator666 So I can’t care about anything just because it isn’t me in that particular situation?

[@katieserra6492]

Women are definitely hurt in abortion as well as the child.

[@thevaccinator666]

@@lisaniiranen9087 I mean if you were in that situation, it's not about you.

[@lisaniiranen9087]

@@katieserra6492 But the child are not in a state of having feelings, the woman are.

[@Ryan_t1290]

I think overall everyone was pretty well informed and civil. But as a woman, I do need to acknowledge the women cutting off the guys pretty frequently. Let them get their point in there and then you can counter.

[@knowdaqueen177]

I noticed that too.

[@omotayosatuyi252]

Yea it was a lot and crazy disrespectful

[@chelcroodzant]

Things got pretty heated towards the end so there was interrupting on both sides! But like I said in another comment we all apologized to each other after every single round 😂 we all had so much to say in so little time - one of my only regrets after leaving this was the interrupting!

[@HLT23456]

I agree. They really needed to truly listen to the guys

[@eugenetswong]

@@chelcroodzant Thanks for telling us about behind the scenes.

[@MiguelLopez-wh6nw]

I love how Jubilee has taken advice from viewers to adjust their platform. I’ve been watching since the beginning and I remembered making comments to put subtitles on the leading questions. Shortly after, you made that adjustment.

[@Random-sk6hm]

Fr, the subtitles, moderator, fact checks etc. Even this video idea was suggested in a previous comment section so big up Jubilee.

[@rosee8140]

Middle ground has changed so much over the years and it's mostly been viewer suggestions, been nice to see!

[@GothicConservative]

They fact checked using “New York times” that’s not a fact check. New York Times is very bias. They need to be better with that.

[@GracieMW]

I love how Cat was attacking Ezequiel when she thought he wasn’t answering her question (Even though he clearly was) but when he was asking her a question, she wouldn’t clearly answer🤔

[@VineVitumEt5]

She is Aunt Lydia.

[@mialovezit]

Women’s bodies go through a lot during and after having babies. Some of their bodies never recover. Some women don’t live through childbirth. To birth a baby or not is a very personal decision.

[@hahahaaha7208]

There is no way to tell that to selfish ignorant people and get through to them.

[@Kingofthenet2]

Very true

[@Mm17297]

Abortion is never necessary to save the life of a woman. There's no excuse

[@jomama4237]

@@Mm17297how can you be so weong

[@Mm17297]

@4237 How am I wrong? early inductions and C- sections work with high-risk cases. Dr. Anthony Levatino has saved hundreds of lives this way. Plus, arguing from an extreme of .2% of cases is incredibly disingenuous and disgusting.

[@Dominique129]

I think a key point or aspect that was not discussed/missed is tragically if a woman requires an abortion or to terminate their pregnancy late term(3rd trimester) often that baby or child was wanted. This conversation and unfortunately so many others neglect to discuss that there are documented cases where pregnancy complications can happen late in pregnancy that could jeopardize the mother's health and life. In high-risk situations, it is about medical intervention not just ending the pregnancy with no cause. Edit: I was thinking of late miscarriages and stillbirths. Again I am no expert and its a situation I hope no one has to go through.

[@chelcroodzant]

This was four hours long so we talked about a lot 😂

[@Dominique129]

@@chelcroodzant I can only imagine! Thanks for replying : )

[@eugenetswong]

There is no debate to be had over late term abortions. If it's an actual medical issue, then there are procedures to end the baby's life to save the mother. It's not called an abortion, if I understand correctly. I think that they did touch on it in the video.

[@senguy]

i definitely wanted to bring this up at some points-- honestly it was just really difficult since our conversation flipped a lot between first trimester abortions and third trimester abortions, sometimes switching within seconds.

[@eugenetswong]

​@@senguyI disagreed with pretty much everything you said, thank you for taking time out to be there and express yourself.

[@foodieusagi]

If the state mandates that it's illegal for a woman to have an abortion, the medical costs of prenatal care/birth should also be the financial responsibility of the state--along with state-mandated maternity leave, daycare, etc. I'm surprised no one brought up the cost of giving birth in America, let alone raising a child for 18+ years.

[@RextheRebel]

I firmly agree.

[@wildewildestrawberries]

Great point.

[@tramarthomas6105]

Conservatives don't care about any of that. It starts at stops at taking choice away from women

[@BizQAC]

For most of the middle class and below economically, that is indeed all available aside from the maternity leave varying state to state.

[@musicplug1730]

I disagree. Don’t get pregnant if you can’t afford a child. It’s that simple

[@user-kq1pz2qb6b]

even with the moderator present we could still see alot of people getting interrupted

[@Random-sk6hm]

Agreed, as a woman I noticed that these women kept cutting the guys off and it's very disrespectful. Let them speak and you'll have your chance to counter.

[@ava1772]

especially how they kept interrupting ngyuen

[@saturn1.11]

​@@ava1772which ones that?

[@deliciousnatalicious]

@@saturn1.11Vietnamese guy in the light blue button-down. Loved him. ❤

[@ava1772]

@@saturn1.11 the asian guy with the glasses :)

[@TheCrogun]

Imo It's incredibly two-faced to say someone shouldn't be shamed for something that you think should be illegal...

[@FedKaczynski]

That's fair, abolitionists like myself believe that women should face legal consequences.

[@mmmmmrmmmrm]

@@FedKaczynski Kaczynski definitely would have sent you a package, lol

[@FedKaczynski]

@@mmmmmrmmmrm ah yes, a pro deather being violent. No surprise there.

[@Aaron-kj8dv]

I don't think so. Do you think people should be allowed to prostitute or sell meth on your block? If no then does that mean you want to go out there and shame them?

[@bunny44489]

@@FedKaczynski Women choose to terminate pregnancies because they are not financially, physically (due to chronic illness, other pre-existing conditions etc), or emotionally fit to be pregnant and raise a child. How would further bankrupting someone by jailing them be in the human interest? Who is this protecting?

[@armenthamurphy4606]

They keep bringing up late term abortions like doctors aren’t duty bound by the hippocratic oath, doctors aren’t just doing late term abortions because the mother wants it often times there are medical issues that come up that call for these types abortions including the fact that the baby maybe already turn deceased.

[@Jk-ow8ny]

What are the unborn?

[@thegreatbambino3358]

If the baby is deceased, it is not an abortion

[@altaccount9716]

What about if the mother wanted a late-term abortion just because, how would you feel about that?

[@bubukittee24]

If the baby is no linger living, then it’s a miscarriage. Not an abortion. And there are doctors who admit to doing late term just because. There’s even hidden camera footage of a female doctor attempting to sell baby parts to get a new car. Came out a couple years ago.

[@GaryCahuenga]

​@@altaccount9716when is this happening? Why would a woman want to be pregnant for 8 ½ months just to get an abortion?

[@lindahhh]

pro life people seem to forget that pro choice doesnt mean pro abortion, it means pro choice!!! as in you have the choice to abort or not!!!

[@gracegabriel27]

Thank you for making this point!!! I completely agree and it’s something I find really frustrating. I would not call myself pro abortion, but I am absolutely pro choice. I don’t know whether it’s something I would ever do but I absolutely want to have the ability to make the decision about my body if I chose to do so and more importantly, it is not for me to say what choice someone else should make because of my beliefs. It is the decision of a woman with the help of medical professionals to decide what is best for her. It is not my business nor should it be anyone else’s choice but hers ❤

[@emmanuelbravo6852]

Nah. Choice is chocolate or vanilla. Choice is whether you decide to wear black or brown shoes to work. What you're advocating for is ending a life. The decision as to whether another human lives or dies. "Choice" is using linguistics to hide the reality, which is that abortion is an act of violence.

[@knowdaqueen177]

They kept reiterating this point and the pro lifers kept ignoring it. All of their points hinge on pro choicers wanting every pregnancy to be terminated. Their concerns for quality of life exist in an imaginary reality that doesn’t exist.

[@MissesSniffles]

Yes! So many people miss that fact. I wish they took the time to understand what being pro choice actually means

[@lasargentocandelaria9945]

choice to do what?

[@cieradickey4626]

Red jacket wouldn’t let anyone finish their thoughts 😭

[@inesarif8497]

Yeah i think she was there more to vent 😂

[@inesarif8497]

Which tbh you’re there to have a respectable debate not vent

[@danzwku]

" Pro Choice Men vs Pro Life Women " would've been a much better title, come on guys!

[@nuttypurrfessor]

I like how calm and respectful they stayed throughout most of the episode! This is a very emotional topic and quite philosophical too. Props to them and especially to Gen for moderating this conversation well!

[@GEN]

Thank you so much 🤝

[@TheRealCandyMan]

I feel Noelle interrupted a lot and came off slightly argumentative sometimes

[@nadiainthesky]

I think this was largely in part because the men mostly stayed calm even when the women repetitively got worked up and interrupted them.

[@angelmushahf]

I consider myself to be pro-choice. That being said, I use birth control. I know my options. And I’m extremely picky about the partners I choose. I do everything I can to prevent unwanted pregnancies.

[@catscats4427]

So did I. I used condoms with my long term partner. And the unexpected still happened. I’m glad I had the choice.

[@Random-sk6hm]

Always try to practice safe, protected sex. However, no contraception is 100% effective and there's still a 1 in 50 chance it will fail (and that's assuming it's used correctly which isn't always the case for first-timers).

[@angelmushahf]

@@Random-sk6hm depends on the birth control you’re using. Its not guaranteed, but if it offers a 98% success rate, then I’m pretty sure you’ll be ok. Saying “1 in 50” is a huge underestimation. Its more like 1 in 100. And there are options other than the pill or condoms

[@angelmushahf]

@@catscats4427 I agree but everybody knows that condoms pop. You could have gotten on birth control or your partner could have had a vasectomy (that is, if you seriously never want kids, like ever). But I’m also glad you had the choice

[@nelsonvazquez8104]

Exactly

[@GorgieClarissa]

as a survivor of child abuse... i am 1000% pro-choice. i would rather have been aborted than endured over 10 years of physical and emotional child abuse. using a story of adoption of someone who grew up in abuse and then to turn around and say ''isn't that life worth something'' what kind of life is an abused life? no child deserves that. if my mom wasn't a selfish POS.... i wouldn't be here today in pain without a childhood and memories to happily look back on. forcing someone to give birth doesn't do that child any favors.

[@AJ-lm5dl]

Yet, you're still here and haven't aborted yourself. What does that tell you?

[@taliaward8789]

I’m so sorry that happened to you 😢❤

[@mo.ka.9661]

Why are you still here?

[@JohnjOcampo]

Disgusting human being. "Oh hey, i rather be dead because life got extremely hard."

[@AJ-lm5dl]

​@@doordashdelivery Abortion is always child abuse because it's the process of literally abusing a child to death.

[@coffeeandcats8332]

Her saying having an abortion doesn’t get DV victims out of those relationships is wild. If someone has a child in that situation, 1) they’re putting the child at risk for being abused and witnessing abuse, neglect, etc. and 2) that’s creating a guarantee that it’ll be even HARDER for the victim to get the courage to leave. They are now bonded to this abuser by a child, they may not be able to support themselves and a child while on the run, the abuser might be even more keen on finding them if they leave because they want their child, etc.

[@taylorreaves4660]

yes!!! girlie was outta pocket and also the justification of making them carry a rape baby to term whew 🤦🏽‍♀️ like logical gaps

[@iliketoberightforty2]

i had this exact thought thank you for saying this, I wish this wouldve been brought up in the debate😔

[@sappysama]

I’d really love to see pro life men vs pro choice women presented with the same questionnaire (if it hasn’t already been done on this channel) 🤔

[@eugenetswong]

I honestly don't find that as interesting, because it's too easy to stereo type, even though the arguments should be the same.

[@lnapjr76]

I'd be interested in seeing that also. Many men have their children aborted because a woman doesn't want the child. Men really have zero rights or "say" in this matter....no matter what side of the debate they're on.

[@cerickson017]

Perhaps a 4 way debate. Pro-life men and women speaking with pro-choice men and womne.

[@eugenetswong]

@@cerickson017That's even more normal...which is nice, but the arguments are supposed to be the same.

[@Michael-ur5qb]

@@eugenetswongI thought this was more stereotypical since men are historically more conservative. I don’t think woman are stereotyped to be against abortion, it’s the other way around. I actually think it would be refreshing. Also, I would love to see middle america vs coastal Americans. At this point it’s a state issue and the bible belt as a whole regardless of gender has a differing opinion.

[@Gchildwarrior]

Moderator was needed....but needs to be stronger when it comes to interruptions. You also can't let someone railroad another with questions to trap them.

[@cyonoid]

I had to have two abortions... one bc i was r*ped and one was with my ex who didnt want me to keep it.. If i could support myself and be a single mother, i would've kept it, but I knew I couldn't, so i went through with the abortion. It's something that's not just black and white, and circumstances are all different. Freedom of choice and pursuing your happiness are fundamental human rights

[@dahliaherrod4301]

I'm very sorry you had to go through that experience. Were you able to get any support during those times?

[@ninjawizard3865]

Sounds like you had the freedom of choice both of those times....

[@cyonoid]

@ninjawizard3865 I never said I didn't but I also said if I could financially support a child as a single mother, I would've kept it despite what my ex wanted because I found myself wondering what they would've been like. That's all ❤️

[@cyonoid]

@dahliaherrod4301 it's okay, my mom has been a solid support for me through each time. I never wanna do it again

[@boochi7087]

You made the best decision for yourself as the primary person who would have had to deal with the consequences of bringing those children into this already challenging world. I hope you're able to get through some healing process and wish you all the best in your future. ❤❤

[@jadacampbell9331]

Regarding being a product of traumatic conception, it seems it hurts more when the person grows up and learns how and why they were conceived. From what Ive seen, that messes with people's minds, resulting in years of therapy. It's mind-boggling that some ppl truly believe termination is hurting the development's feelings

[@Ambi1021]

So true. In some states, the rapist has parental rights. So not only was the woman raped, but she also had to go through pregnancy and share custody with or lose custody to her rapist. Not to mention the fact that the child has to be around that terrible person.

[@wakkablockablaw6025]

"It's mind-boggling that some ppl truly believe termination is hurting the development's feelings" What?

[@wakkablockablaw6025]

What data do you have that supports this?

[@Dennis-nc3vw]

I find that very hard to believe. I knew a girl who was likely conceived in rape. She was a sweet and happy person.

[@sylvanaalcidor2010]

@@Dennis-nc3vw an exception makes the rule? And most mental illness can’t be seen they aren’t running through the streets butt naked.

[@rickson50]

I don't like the term "men can't tell women what to do with their bodies." Anyone can tell anyone else anything. It should be "men can't force women to do or not do what they will to their bodies" or some variation. Also, it shouldn't be 'men' it should be people, or can women force other women to do something with their bodies?

[@with-eyes-unclouded]

Absolutely agree

[@SHINeeismydrugXP]

YES!

[@anonymousbo0318]

Agreed

[@Random-sk6hm]

Whilst I completely agree, I think they phrased it in a simple manner so that everyone could understand it.

[@somemedic8482]

I love to see people who reason like you.

[@Whisk3yKnight]

Fundamentally, it comes down to a difference is what we consider living. Pro-choice folks don’t (or at least, majority don’t) consider a fetus as a life, whereas pro-lifers do. Tbh idk how we are ever gonna reconcile that key difference🤷‍♂️

[@Localrockstarwannabe]

It's not even only that. Pro-lifers should know that when it comes down to it, thw woman's life is worth more than what's inside her and abortion is Healthcare unless u want teen girls who have their whole life ahead of them to give birth, which is morally wrong.

[@phelp5379]

This is so key because if I bet a majority of pro choices would be pro life if it was proven without a doubt that a fetus was a life and a lot of pro lifers would be pro choice if it was proven without a doubt that a fetus wasn’t a life

[@imjustcookingpizza9354]

I'm pro choice and I, as well as most (if not all) pro choice people I know consider a fetus to be biologically alive. It's just that it's life is far less valuable than the life of the woman carrying it, especially in early gestation. I would say the primary difference between the sides is the pro-choice prioritizes quality of life whereas prolife prioritizes number of lives, regardless of the autonomy and emotional wellbeing of those lives.

[@phelp5379]

@@imjustcookingpizza9354 Really? I hear “it’s not alive it’s just a clump of cells” very often from the pro choice side

[@ang5798]

Maybe with accepting reality that the baby that wants to come out now, was the same baby 3 months ago

[@jamesfarrier8985]

We all agree we wouldn't shame... As one person calls them murderers...

[@bellam7504]

forreal that girl in the read jacket keeps saying murderers…. jeez she’s insufferable

[@azayzelderegis1655]

“We wouldn’t shame the women who have abortions” and yet they want to throw them in prison. Make it make sense??

[@annaleigh2413]

I genuinely feel like the amount of speaking from one side is not equal to the other. i appreciate a moderator but there were many many times where a specific person was unable to express their opinion and cut off when another had been speaking for a significant amount of time. I disagree that this video is well moderated, as I do feel one side got to speak their point while another did not in the same amount.

[@aidanaldrich7795]

You can only make it so fair without setting time limits on speaking

[@simplyalex11]

agreed! a simple “let this person finish, then you can speak” would have sufficed!

[@samuelito8929]

29:35 “After that who’s helping” As soon as he agrees with her she says “well there is support”. Lmfao come on now.

[@savannahrichardson254]

The blatant hypocrisy isn’t even funny anymore. It’s like they are so grounded on the moral aspect of it that they don’t care about the person making the choice at all. Notice how most of this conversation surrounded the topic of the fetus rather than the person carrying.

[@chelcroodzant]

It’s Chelsea from the vid! There was A LOT that was cut - this was a four hour process 😂 we did list a lot of organizations that’s support the mothers and children post birth. Also our credentials - a lot of us volunteer or work for orgs that support them post birth

[@estuardo937]

She was asking where’s the support on the pro choice side for women that choose to have the baby, he asked where’s the support on the pro life side and she said there is support

[@savannahrichardson254]

@@erinnelson3395 😂🤣yeah sure. Explain then

[@savannahrichardson254]

@@erinnelson3395 me saying that the conversation should be prioritizing the pregnant person instead of the fetus makes me seem ignorant…? Did you even read my comment lmaoo

[@jamestaylor378]

If you think a child is being murdered, there is no convincing pro choice argument.

[@colonelsanders5278]

W

[@anonymousbo0318]

Factually, they are. All the flowery language is meaningless. Just be realistic about it, instead of attempting to be everyone

[@aidanaldrich7795]

Which is the case

[@Octobre1986]

Then you did not listen. There is even euthanasia and death penalty in several countries. It's the necessity people convinces.

[@whatoh3407]

Pro-lifers: "we shouldn't shame women for abortions" Pro-lifers: "you MURDERED a baby"

[@rachelkubicek1993]

One important argument that I’m disappointed the men didn’t communicate, probably bc they don’t have to think about this, is the fact that some women just don’t want to go through pregnancy itself. That’s the major importance of having a choice to not be forced to have your body give birth. While being able to bear children is a literal superpower, and even removing the scenarios with societal/economic strains influencing the decision to have an abortion, if a woman doesn’t want to put her body through pregnancy, she shouldn’t be forced to!

[@abbeyplankinton4481]

Exactly thank you! Some women don’t ever want to have kids and I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone use that for the pro choice argument. It’s like people can’t even consider the notion that a woman doesn’t want to be a mother. Then of course the pro-lifers would say ‘just give your baby up for adoption’, if I don’t want to be a mom, that means I don’t want to be a mom in any way. Even if it’s a closed adoption, there’s still a possibility that child could find you one day. And that child would also have to deal with the emotions caused by their bio mom not wanting them

[@Whirlbee]

This! Its not something I want to put myself through & I don't want kids anyway, that should be enough reasoning

[@AJ-lm5dl]

​@@Whirlbee Then be responsible and don't get pregnant in the first place.

[@tessaelto1472]

@@AJ-lm5dlWorry about yourself and use a condom. Not that you get close to any women

[@mo.ka.9661]

Why not?

[@brittanylewandowski6200]

Ya'll agreed " women should never be shamed for having an abortion" But you shamed every woman whose had an abortion by calling them murderers.

[@quibblegaze]

0:31: 💰 Financial impact of abortion vs child support on men's responsibility. 3:56: ⚖️ The weight of decision-making in abortion debates and the impact on women's lives. 8:22: ⚖️ Discussion on personal experiences with abortion and adoption, advocating for pro-choice while acknowledging individual circumstances. 11:43: ⚖️ Discussion on men's understanding of pregnancy, importance of social programs, and being a feminist while pro-life. 15:58: ⚖️ Debate on celebrating abortion within the women's movement and the importance of women's agency. 19:55: ⚖️ Discussion on societal obsession with perfection, challenging termination advice, and diverse views on abortion. 23:58: ⚖️ Debate on the beginning of life, prioritizing mother's life, and rarity of life-threatening abortions. 27:43: 💬 Discussion on moral stance and having a voice in abortion debates. 30:38: ⚖️ Debate on abortion laws: personal beliefs vs. statutory ban at six weeks or conception. 34:01: ⚖️ Debate on elective abortions and impact on families, emphasizing importance of support systems. 37:49: ⚖️ Discussion on abortion rights and personal stories of difficult decisions and redemption. Timestamps by Tammy AI

[@legoqueen2445]

Thx so much for this!

[@rodrigoesc3747]

This was genuinely one of the best Middle Ground episodes I’ve seen cuz despite a lot of opinions being shared, some of them they didn’t agree and even I didn’t agree either, everyone was extremely respectful and tried to see the point without geting heated or trying create conflict. A lot of these there’s always someone that’s there looking to fight and to shame the other side, whereas here everyone was informed, respectful and imo attempted to see and truly find middle ground with the other side on this topic

[@muzii3137]

What we want is the ability to CHOOSE!

[@Taromilktea1995]

I don't understand why ppl care so much about what others do with their body even if you follow a particular religion. I sometimes feel like people have brain rot or something honestly.

[@goman335]

People of a religious faith more than likely believe that every human being has intrinsic value. That means that no person including one tat isn't born yet should suffer an unwarranted death. It's the body of another human that they want to protect. What you said is the same as a slave holder that didn't believe their slaves were people. "Why do you care what I do with my property?"... well because they're a person who deserves to live their own life.@@Taromilktea1995

[@apollooncancr0_876]

It's funny, it's as if a colonialist said it was his choice to have a slave or not. Whose choice is it?

[@smelly1060]

​@@apollooncancr0_876coconuts and potatoes are the same thing to you huh ?

[@apollooncancr0_876]

@@smelly1060 no arguments? the usual.

[@sophialakota]

Protect men like this at all costs! It soothes my soul to hear men speak about this with such compassion and a willingness to put themselves in women’s shoes.

[@jay-t1030]

Lol but at the same time they’re not supposed to have a say/opinion about it? Seems like men should have have opinion about abortion if they support it. What a joke

[@s.r6331]

​@@jay-t1030men can have an opinion but it's not gonna matter. Lol

[@mimia.4810]

@@s.r6331It’s clearly does matter because most of the people making these laws on abortion are men. Moreover, men are also impacted by abortions in their personal lives.

[@EmilyKT352]

They sound like such beta, soy boys. No thanks

[@AJ-lm5dl]

"No uterus, no opinion... Unless you say what I say." Lol. The hypocrisy.

[@tomasdiaz1974]

This has to be one of the BEST episodes of Middle Ground I have ever seen! Having a moderator also males a huge difference.

[@GEN]

Thanks for watching! It was great to moderate this debate

[@parke6704]

@@GENi love you Gen !!!

[@Mrz0rx]

@@GEN I think you could have been a bit more stern with the moderation. There was much more interrupting from one side with the intent to shut people down, rather than ask pertinent questions. But I still appreciate you doing it.

[@vw7667]

It’s a choice! Allow ppl to make a decision for themselves without judgement or fear.

[@aidanaldrich7795]

You can't choose to do whatever you want to do with your body 😂

[@kaylanicole5126]

I hate how everyone wants to say life begins at conception. First of all the pregnancy hasn’t even started at conception or fertilization so how did life start. Pregnancy begins at implantation but again it is not necessarily the same thing as life. So many people are so uninformed it makes me want to scream😖

[@lt4651]

Pro choice is not against pro life. Pro lifers are the ones against pro choice. Pro choice is the do what is best for you crew. You choose life we for it, you choose the alternative we empathize with you.

[@echomoon4693]

Exactly!! Thank you so much for saying it. Pro-choice people just want everyone to have the option to do what they want and what is best for them. Pro-life people are simply trying to force their reality (often a privileged reality) onto other people they know nothing about

[@K.C-2049]

I feel like pro life's main card is making it seem like pro choice is actually anti natalism "everyone should always get abortions" voodoo. if that's the case we should just call pro life what it really is: anti choice.

[@Whirlbee]

Yuuuup

[@mo.ka.9661]

​​@@echomoon4693you don't want to aborted kids to have choices. Pro lifers include the unborn in that "everyone" umbrella

[@echomoon4693]

@@mo.ka.9661 as they aren’t people yet- of course they don’t get a choice. If it has to use the body of an unwilling person to live, then it doesn’t get the choice. A person who has feelings, thoughts, opinions, fears, and a life of course should get to make the choice

[@madaleeX]

Keep up with the middle grounds. It’s the best series on your channel

[@kayladay23]

i agree! middle ground is my favorite

[@iliketoberightforty2]

i love watching them while i eat

[@madaleeX]

@@iliketoberightforty2 me too

[@holleyalexandra1637]

My biggest issue with the pro-life side is their ANSWERS to many questions are anecdotes. Whereas the pro-choice side shares anecdotes but not as the sole answer.

[@ravendawnhead97]

There is no such thing as a pro life feminist. You cannot be a feminist while advocating for and supporting people being forced to gestate and give birth. Forcing people to gestate and give birth violates privacy rights, violates bodily autonomy/bodily integrity rights, and violates human rights. Cannot be feminist while supporting the violation of those rights.

[@bbmb4by]

do you truly know how traumatizing abortion can be for a woman?

[@ravendawnhead97]

@@bbmb4by For those who are forced to have one it is. And that’s said. I’m against forced abortion. However, people should still be allowed to decide to have one if they wish.

[@bbmb4by]

@@ravendawnhead97 forced abortions are not the only traumatic ones. i’m not exactly pro choice or pro life, i just think every person should realize how both abortion and pregnancy can be equally traumatic.

[@ravendawnhead97]

@@bbmb4by ha. Okay. If you say.

[@bbmb4by]

@@ravendawnhead97 ??

[@MrLbstoner]

so i actually went with a girl to get an abortion and it's not actually the way these women think it is. i remember the doctor being very concerned and reminding her that getting an abortion is very serious and even 1 abortion could mess up her reproductive chances later on in life. there were other facts that he told her that even i was thinking "wow this is actually something pretty heavy to decide about your body and the chances of being able to have a baby later in life" so i think when the pro life group think women are being coerced into abortions by medical professionals that is a huge misrepresentaion of what is really happening when they are giving medical advice about abortions. also i would like to point out that i think most people agree that abortions should not be banned, but they should be regulated. everyone i think agrees that in certain circumstances it can be a viable option, because a flat out ban on abortions would be a very bad situation that none of us would ever want to put someone through. so where we are stuck debating is up to when do we want to allow a woman to have an abortion. and i think that is what the talking point needs to be, maybe every trimester has different qualifiers for an abortion?

[@girlplease2452]

Exactly

[@mostbeautifulbelovedgarden]

The coercion isn’t from the doctors… it’s from the fathers

[@BlueCoolOla]

Abortions have 0 effect on fertility, it’s a myth spread by anti choice people who want to scare women into keeping their babies

[@betteryourlife865]

Yeah…it’s not a happy “okay here’s your pill”. I was going to my first ultrasound and I thought it was just to confirm pregnancy/how far along I was. She started talking about my options in a very serious manner and I was like oh I’m just here to see the baby and know how far along I am. She seemed so relieved.

[@senguy]

i think that's probably the biggest challenge we faced arguing as pro-choice men-- we've never had to walk into an abortion clinic or undergo a pregnancy ourselves. the best we have are stories like yours that come from other women, but it's hard to fully grasp that perspective when it's so different from your own. thanks for sharing!

[@joloswe8033]

I hated that the ladies were interrupting the men and forcing them to answer questions while actively avoiding questions from the men

[@Zedd...]

the moderator was useless. and these women are not very bright to begin with, so it is kinda expected.

[@chelcroodzant]

Things got pretty heated towards the end so there was interrupting on both sides! But like I said in another comment we all apologized to each other after every single round 😂 we all had so much to say in so little time - one of my only regrets after leaving this was the interrupting!

[@anemonalazeta3368]

THANK YOU BECAUSE NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT IT. EVERYONE IS JUST PRAISING THEM FOR BEING “WELL SPOKEN AND RESPECTFUL”

[@senguy]

i feel like it was also partially on us as the pro-choice men to be more assertive and speak up especially when we represent such a huge movement, but really it could've been a lot worse

[@Random-sk6hm]

As a woman, that irked me and they weren't letting the guys speak at all. I feel like these guys were trying to be respectful and the women were taking advantage of it.

[@NicolasDoebelin]

really loved this episode how everybody was respectful and giving each other a hug at the end. also props to the moderator

[@nicolekennedy22]

No child should be born into poverty. No child should be born into a circumstance they have to survive through. No child should be born through rape, if the mother doesn’t want to keep it. There are 391,098 children in foster care, some of these children will go unadopted and/or passed around to different homes. No child deserves to live like that. Until we have a system that actually takes care of the neglected children women should be allowed to do what they feel is best.

[@MYST1CALPANDA]

Everyone goes thru suffering or has bad circumstances at some point in their life. It’s ridiculous to say these children don’t even deserve a chance at life. Just because someone is in poverty does not make their life any less valuable.

[@down-to-earth-mystery-school]

Yep, the pro-lifers in this video finally had to admit that these children are going to be born into really hard circumstances with little to no support. A woman isn’t going to think, maybe the govt will help me, when she k owes they won’t…

[@jillybean18]

So bc someone might struggle in life, then they’re not worthy of living? That’s a rocky road.

[@MYST1CALPANDA]

@@down-to-earth-mystery-school People born into hard circumstances don’t even deserve a chance at life?? They’re just better off dead? What a disgusting mentality. Just because you’re born into a difficult circumstance doesn’t mean you can’t have a meaningful life.

[@Angus-Johnson-8334]

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 King James Version 15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

[@noukiatsobgnie4109]

"life starts because of its own DNA" even bacteria have DNA like... that's not an argument

[@kalamari3288]

Bacteria also don’t become people.

[@aidanaldrich7795]

Bacteria is life though. Not sure how bacteria refutes that a human fetus is a human life

[@denzellmovies]

@@kalamari3288 sperm can also become people. So does that mean I'm not allowed to flush my load down the toilet?

[@nataliefletcher]

Middle ground is so much better with a moderator

[@thebiggestofhearts]

pro choice also includes the choice to be a mother and working on having better things and programs in place for mothers because realistically there are mental health issues, physical illnesses to wear they cannot take certain birth controls, free healthcare is not nationwide, not everybody REALISTICALLY has the means and/or information to get involved in any of the things they are talking about

[@thebiggestofhearts]

chronic illnesses. If we get into sciences, the baby can literally feel what the mother feels, people carry mental and chronic illnesses due to DNA, if you carry a baby thinking the whole time I do not want this baby (and you CANNOT force anybody to want a baby) I hope you have all the solutions in plqce for all of these issues.

[@iliketoberightforty2]

THIS!!

[@taranom6207]

6:43 What do you mean women’s body don’t get hurt? It’s nine months of pregnancy your whole body’s gonna change forever after you give birth to a child. There’s also Postpartum depression and so many other mental issues woman have to go through.

[@Ryan-gx4ce]

As a male, I would happily take a pill if it prevented my spouse from getting pregnant. Totally 100% onboard. Where is it?

[@PROVOCATEURSK]

It´s called a red pill and vasectomy.

[@katieo.6066]

They are working on it!!!

[@csoniah4432]

​@@katieo.6066 they have been working on it for a long time now , it's been more than 5 years I've seen news about male control pills or male control injections and I don't see it anywhere or being talked about

[@josephdahdouh2725]

Prevent the female from getting pregnant is different then abortion though.

[@Ryan-gx4ce]

@@josephdahdouh2725 I know. I'm responding to the very first conversation they had. Also, than*

[@nydirahnuble9490]

HYPOCRISY! How they all step up for not shaming women who abort but everything they say is shaming! People literally stand outside clients and shame women!💀

[@VaunKing]

U corny

[@VaunKing]

Def low iq

[@a.d.t.o.y.]

no literally 😭

[@proudcracker]

woman who have had abortions can always be forgiven, ill shame those who promote abortion not the woman who have had them in the past

[@SolitudeVolante]

Christians🤷🏽‍♀️

[@Raidur7215]

Actually, you CAN and SHOULD make an argument against the extreme WHEN the extreme is ACCEPTED/tolerated by the main.

[@Adulthoomanfemale]

I changed my stance to pro-life after getting pregnant and realizing the baby is not my body, it is a separate person and I respected their bodily autonomy.

[@K.C-2049]

yeh and that's a choice YOU made for yourself. and that's great, I'm glad you feel that way, but forcing everyone to believe what you believe and choose what you chose out of your personal experience is not ok. pro choice isn't about forcing people to have abortions, it's allowing people to choose what they want to do and giving them safe, sanitary options to do so.

[@Momo-po5tn]

​@@K.C-2049you don't deserve a choice to end human life

[@crystalreierson1053]

my body was not created to have a child. my body was created for me, and to give me the opportunity to have a child if that is what i wish to do. being a woman on this earth doesn't automatically sign you up for motherhood. we are not soil that seeds can be planted into whenever someone else pleases.

[@caitypoo.]

Queen ❤

[@logic109]

That’s statement is true unless you get yourself pregnant

[@altaccount9716]

Scientifically and biologically speaking. That is your purpose in life.

[@hsteeves]

I would suggest not having sex then since it is for creating children.

[@basicallybritt7533]

I hope that means you're keeping your legs closed.

[@oopsibrokethecow]

Susan B. was not anti-abortion, and in fact, the early suffragettes rarely discussed abortion OR birth control, because those procedures and options were not readily available during that time. The pill hadn't been invented and wouldn't be for another fifty years AFTER the death of these women AND wasn't legal in every state for even longer. Contraceptive methods weren't available over-the-counter, not even condoms. There wasn't an accessible and safe option for BC. Abortion falls under the same idea, and in the late 19th century to early 20th (when these women lived and were active in the movement) wasn't the refined and safe medical surgical procedure that it is today. They are basing Susan B. being anti-choice off of the signature of Marriage and Maternity, that might or might not have (most likely not) signed by Susan B. It was signed by a woman using "A" as her signature, and many anti-choicers run wild with that, claiming it MUST have been Susan B. Well, it probably wasn't. And to say that all early women's rights activists were anti-choice is not true either. Alice Paul, were fiercely pro-choice and helped grass roots efforts to start the early abortion clinics, along with Margret Sanger and Planned Parenthood. BUT say even IF they were anti-abortion, so what? That was a different time when abortion was literally a "back alley" procedure, performed by undertrained archaic male doctors without anesthesia, without sterilization, and without after care. Women bled out and died more often than not. Of course, in that case, one is going to be against it. However, abortion NOW one of the safest surgeries there are, and one of the most common. It is safer than being pregnant and giving birth. If Susan B. Cady Stanton, and so on were alive today, I highly doubt they'd be anti-choice by any stretch of the imagination.

[@jadacampbell9331]

Also the question doesn't seem to consider that not all who can biologically reproduce are women. But i can guess that can still be related

[@a.d.t.o.y.]

THANK YOU!! they clearly don’t know their history

[@Random-sk6hm]

EXACTLY. It wasn't even available then

[@Italsik]

Thank you for this, was looking for this. I honestly find it silly to put defenses that certain woman supports pro-life/pro-choice, because and then? 😂😂 For pete's sake they are way back from the past, I don't think they even consider these problems when they have their own fights to worry about. Let them rest in peace.

[@adric9246]

I'd love to see this exact video topic with OBGYNs

[@marr.kuaria]

I am so happy that Gen started coming to mediate these episodes. Love his videos he's the perfect person to help these conversations go more evenly

[@GEN]

Thank you so much 🤝

[@rolewis13]

Abortions isn’t a government issue. Also people need to stop trying to rule over others. The country would be a better place if if everyone mind their own business. Someone choosing to have an abortion doesn’t affect me in the slightest same as the pro-life crowd.

[@anonymousbo0318]

Factually untrue when these people want support to do these procedures. You goof. Otherwise they'll argue that only the wealthy could do it. I don't have any desire to pay more for women who I didn't even screw around with and the bad decisions she and her partner made for themselves.

[@aidanaldrich7795]

Actually it is the governments main job to interpret human rights

[@AJ-lm5dl]

You'd be a slave owner with that argument.

[@rishichandra253]

I feel like an interesting one would be pro-life feminists vs pro-choice feminists.

[@vckaspar2367]

19:42 I respect Nick for moving so that he could allow one of the women to take his place so they wouldn't have to walk around everyone for a free seat. I doubt anyone really noticed but it was nice to see. A real gentleman.

[@Scurtinn]

My mom was in the same spot as Cat when she was pregnant with my twin sister and me. While I think it was badass of her to stand up to her doctor, she could only do that because she was immensely privileged (married, family support, could afford to keep us in the NICU for weeks or care for us if we had complications later on). Even though I benefited from her being prolife, I still think that there should be choice for people who are not as privileged as my mom

[@tangyblueberry5013]

Ah yes, the classic "only people with privlage should give birth" argument.

[@ProbablyTheSmartest]

Somewhat the same, not the experience, but people have a choice on to be a parent. My mom was a single mom and had to sacrifice many things to raise me, but she chose to do so, it was her choice. I can only imagine how people without a choice in the say would feel.

[@magicdragon9621]

@@tangyblueberry5013 They didn't say that at all. They said that no one should be forced to give birth, especially those who don't have any familial support, financial stability, or mental stability.

[@justinushartoyo2370]

@@tangyblueberry5013 that's just a strawman. "I still think that there should be **choice** for people who are not as privileged as my mom"

[@Kingofthenet2]

I sgree

[@jessikarabbid4720]

The people saying, "It's a separate being/body." Okay, then separate it from me. If it can't survive being surgically separated from me, then it's not truly a separate being/body from my own..

[@Jk-ow8ny]

what are the unborn?

[@Bumblebee-Butt]

Let's separate you from your country, electricity, Internet, and prepackaged food and see if you can survive

[@mariatheresavonhabsburg]

​@@Bumblebee-Butt Comparing foetuses with internet, electricity and prepackaged food...?? 😂

[@Incognition37]

@@Bumblebee-Buttdamn 🤣

[@natalieann1021]

that would be ending a life.

[@ndifsmurida8838]

I like this seating arrangement. It's much more open and not huddled up where everyone is in everyone's faces.

[@shadejustcant]

Saying womens bodies aren't the ones negatively affected by pregnancy diminishes women who's bodies have been negatively affected by pregnancy. Live in reality ❤

[@Alina-zx6nn]

Yeah😩 Of course woman‘s body are impacted immensely by pregnancy😭

[@sarahm7086]

I also somethimes think that human ego plays a role in these conversations too... could yall imagine a buncha animales sitting round table and talking about this?

[@Martel_Arizona_Rosalina]

Some species actually can abort their pregnancies in case of some bad circumstances

[@subaitaTasneem]

im sad to see that they didnt bring up the fact that some women just dont want to be mothers. the pro life side brought up that being a mother can be empowering, but what makes someone feel empowered is different for every person. it is all so subjective. some people wont feel empowered by being mothers and instead feel burdened. they all just assume everyone wants to be every woman wants to be mothers

[@Not_Like_Us87]

This!!! You can feel empowered by having the freedom to choose how your day goes,on your terms!

[@ravendawnhead97]

Just because we can point to certain people and situations where people make it, that doesn’t justify forcing a person to gestate and give birth.

[@zanderdoyle2449]

What are they gestating and giving birth to?

[@Arrouba123]

Love the idea of Ground News!!! Downloaded! 👏

[@tamiausten873]

8:48 there are people in terrible cases outside America that can't get the care they need: physical, medical, emotional, financial. They get nothing. I'm sure there are some women who don't have the access to medical facilities in America too and my fear is these may be the special cases where I can understand the need for abortion. After watching the color purple, you see that the women didn't really have choices especially the protagonist, she didn't even know who her father was for years, there are probably people who are trapped in this day and age

[@mmgs1148]

I live in a country like that, doctors let the sepsis develop just to dont abort life threatening pregnancies because of catholic bias.

[@zakbarilow9136]

Overall a lot of great points were said from both sides and it wasn’t messy and filled with ad hominem attacks. Great job to everyone involved. I loved that Gen was moderating. I wish there were moderators in each of the heavier topic ones.

[@vinslungur]

Not a single set of balls in sight...

[@lindsaybartels6251]

41:42 abortions at 24 weeks are super rare. Around 95% of abortions are under 13 weeks. The rest is 15 - 20 weeks and less than 1% is at 24 weeks.

[@senguy]

thanks everyone for watching! i'm sorry if i didn't do the best job at representing the pro-choice movement, it was my first jubilee video and i was on like 3 hours of sleep lol. hopefully we all sounded mostly sane. props to production crew for making this episode happen!

[@colonelsanders5278]

Wait u was in the video?

[@cat.professor.]

You did a great job. So happy I got to meet you.

[@robyn1042]

I wish you and the guys got to talk more! You guys articulated yourselves well

[@yota8325]

​@@robyn1042they probably did talk a equal amount it's most likely in the edit. This is why jubilee should have a raw channel where all the content could be posted

[@Random-sk6hm]

Nah bro you were articulate, eloquent and did the pro-choice side justice.

[@bw2532]

@29:56 “I think we all agree, we would never shame someone who has an abortion,” 5 min after trying to tell the dude, “don’t you want a voice to tell people it’s immoral to have an abortion after 20 weeks?” 🤡

[@interludekatt]

didn’t they call women that have abortions murderers 😭like 10 mins before smhh

[@senguy]

​@@lilliekaypowell the original conversation was like four hours long, and a lot of stuff unfortunately had to be cut

[@bw2532]

@porter9494 cool. She wants to shame women getting abortions past then for whatever reason after saying no woman should be shamed. The topic is her hypocrisy. You can have the 20 weeks comment in another thread that’s relevant ;)

[@yota8325]

​@@bw2532but saying it's imoral isn't directly shaming woman

[@Random-sk6hm]

@porter9494 No it's medically and scientifically a fetus until birth.

[@edymac2883]

Making GEN a moderator was a slam-dunk for these videos.

[@ellaryan.006]

This has been my favorite group of people so far. Such an educational and entertaining conversation!

[@tech4days162]

Why don’t they ever understand that pro-choice is not pro-abortion. ITS pro-CHOICE

[@aClownBaby-]

Because they can’t listen.

[@mina8495]

Literally.. so annoying

[@ohuntermc9321]

But as they mentioned in the video, there is a trend going on where women are celebrating it, which is really weird.

[@TheMrShnickers]

Then where are the services to keep women their pregnancies why must abortion be the first order.

[@DgardsGaming]

Are you Pro choice on the Vaccine?

[@KenzLovesMovies]

I hate the argument "oh, well, abortion mentally aversely affects women..." Ok, and? Forcing someone to keep a pregnancy they don't want affects them too, arguably more so, because they will experience the mental anguish of carrying a fetus they don't want for 9 months, the physical and mental pain of being forced to give birth, and then faced with the tremendously difficult decision of giving that child up or keeping it and having to raise a child they, once again, did not want to begin with. There is NO medical procedure that has a 0% regret rate. Every single pregnant person should be able to CHOOSE if they want to move forward with a pregnancy or end it, and there may be consequences and repercussions to bear no matter their choice, but it will have been their choice that they got to make without the government forcing their hand.

[@ProbablyTheSmartest]

It's crazy people think the mental effects of an abortion are always greater than those of a pregnancy

[@Bianical]

very well said!!

[@derrickozoemelam5058]

Simple solution don’t have sex if u don’t wanna get a baby

[@KenzLovesMovies]

@@derrickozoemelam5058 not a realistic solution but thank you for the contribution

[@jlopez4889]

I mean, it is a terrible arguement. However, I don't think that holding the position of "This thing in my life probably will traumatize me, therefore I should get rid of it." If you believe that the fetus is human, at what point do you think that sacrificing a human for your benefit is too much. Now if you don't believe that the fetus is a human, then that is a whole different discussion. But I know some of you are pro-choice and still believe that the fetus is a human.

[@karinaholguin164]

“How can someone be feminist while saying I dont want you to have bodily autonomy in that way.” That is exactly what I thought, the pro life women really lack logic because having a baby is also taxing on the mind and body 🤦‍♀️

[@shauneevampyre]

This was refreshing to watch. Most of these Jubilee debates, I feel like the egos get in the way and they're not actually open to hearing the other side. This one felt respectful and mature. More like this one, please!

[@menabiss321]

It always bothers me, the whole "isn't the child's life still worth living, no matter the circumstances" argument. As a person suffering from heavy depression and having suicidal thoughts, i am so, so, so conscious of the fact that life isn't always the most precious, the most valuable thing that people often make it out to be. In an ideal world - sure, it should be. But we don't live in an ideal world, and sometimes choosing life for a person is just choosing suffering. People don't like to talk about it, because of how terrifyingly final death is, but cases like this exist - when forcing someone to live is a cruel, compassionless choice. Like, this is why euthanasia is a thing. And with abortion, when the life in question is not current, but future, when the person who's life it would be can't decide for themselves, the fact is - it is always a gamble. It is always you deciding for them if their life will be worth living. You can estimate, but you don't really know. That's why i think it is thoughtless and uncaring to give either choice a moral superiority, which is what pro-life people are basically doing. Just thought it needs to be said, since this argument is so rarely challenged.

[@colonelsanders5278]

Which side is u on?

[@menabiss321]

@@colonelsanders5278 you mean pro-life or pro-choice? i'm pro-choice.

[@echomoon4693]

@@colonelsanders5278also why would it matter what side they’re on? These facts are relevant to both. It’s extremely pertinent to remember that life can be more cruel than death in lots of cases.

[@colonelsanders5278]

@@echomoon4693 I was curious

[@colonelsanders5278]

@@menabiss321 ew