Pro Poker Insights: Bet or Check? Here's How to Decide

[@CrushlivePoker]

Do you agree with Bart that the Hero's bet on turn makes very little sense?

[@Conductor2711]

I think it depends how heavily we discount JTo, and J9h, based on the check on the flop (I take caller at his word that this villain raises KQo 100% here, I certainly would). Hero was only player left to act, so UTG +1 seems to be taking a big risk of a free card with a lot of people left to act with hands that should want protection that many ways. If JTo and J9hh never check that flop then... I agree caller can bet for value and did so correctly.

[@Conductor2711]

Oh, and we have to discount weak aces too, but... Again, the check-raise multiway with a weak ace on flop is a line that doesn't make very much sense.

[@KenDavis-uo8kq]

Yes.

[@revbenball]

Ok but if he checks and the villain jams on a brick river, is our hero calling?

[@Conductor2711]

@@revbenball I think the answer has to be yes. At this point we are saying the line doesn't make sense with anything except dominated draws, and the naked K is a good enough bluff catcher against those hands.

[@michaelsloan5961]

Bart when a call in has both a hero and a villain who are CLP/KZbin subs wouldn’t it be interesting to get both perspectives? Either at the same time or a follow-up? Just a random thought I had while watching. Keep up the good work.

[@Rich_Newell_]

I like this idea.

[@Jackson-kv4gh]

Would be really cool. Especially to have them both on at the same time, and maybe let them take turns explaining their reasoning on each street

[@snapfade]

Great idea

[@Dynamice1337]

I try real hard to avoid tables with other CLP subscribers :p

[@joshsheppard21]

I was villain on a call before I put my thoughts in the comments

[@namirdfaili725]

the merid of the 3bet on the flop is u can easy check back turn and see a free river. kinda reverse blockbet

[@frederickmccabe5675]

Caller is a thinking player, not dumb, and a real life example of why small stakes are still profitable regardless of how much good info is available nowadays.

[@YourPalJamieEllis]

You can lead horses to water, an amuse bouche, and a three-course dinner, but you can't make them drink

[@xrsma]

I really enjoyed this video with the caller with his well structured thought process and reproduction of the hand. I also had the opinion that villain as described had almost no made hands in his range.

[@beanhoudini]

caller is awful lmao doesn't know whether he's betting for value or is bluffing on the turn and opened himself up to this mess. really bad indicative of 1/3 player

[@beanhoudini]

can't call him a thinking player if he's betting randomly

[@joshsheppard21]

I think he butchered the hand he is thinking but he’s not asking himself the right questions he monkey bet the turn and I have no idea why he should have x back or jammed the turn

[@jameswalker7420]

I'm shocked villain doesn't have KQ here. At these low stakes there's lots of casual players that would just limp. It's surprising that he would passively limp preflop and then just go nuts post flop with 89hh.

[@PTfan54]

I would have never in a million years correctly guessed what Villain had here. Poker is ALIVE.

[@johnc505]

Why does the thumbnail have 6 fingers on the hand holding the phone…?

[@pot_kivach160]

15:56 that's bad play by V. Did BTN play any better?

[@bryaneltzroth8833]

I need to get in on this home game 😂

[@johnchristopher1260]

If this the game I think it is, It is VERY good.

[@bertrandsmith9478]

Sounds like a game in Douglasville to me 🤷‍♂️

[@Glitch47278]

Interesting hand because both players have a very weak range on this board. Seems like neither player was really thinking about their own range here, just thinking about opponent range.

[@1vailchris]

Definitely way too much leveling going on here. Sure, hero can't be too strong on this flop, but he can be stronger than V, who can't be strong at all.

[@ChiTownIsaac55]

Worked out for the caller but a check back on turn is probably best. If he checks back turn, villain likely jams river and hero loses the hand.

[@no1ghostrider]

Yeah but loses the min. if that's possible

[@1vailchris]

There was $300 in the pot on the turn, and $600 left behind. If hero checked back turn, V probably isn't going to jam river on a brick. What is V's flop x/r supposed to be repping, when he basically limped in pre, and then checked flop? It seems like his strongest value hand might be something like Jh9h. Hero could have some JTo and weak aces in his range. V's flop x/r looks like a weak hand for value or a draw that bricked out. What would V expect hero to fold on the river after hero puts in the 3B on the flop? Is hero supposed to fold Ax or JT, when V's strongest hand is a worse 1P?

[@ChiTownIsaac55]

@@1vailchris you make a good point. I’m just saying that if Villain is going to c/r all in on turn with pretty much no fold equity, he’s likely to lead river as well. It’s not a sure thing but I think it’s a likelihood. You make good points but I you’re analyzing on a higher level than they were playing at.

[@1vailchris]

​@@ChiTownIsaac55 It seems extremely unlikely V is going to x/r flop, check turn, and then, if the turn goes check-check, he's going to jam for 2x pot on a total brick with a busted 9-high flush draw. If he's going to bluff-jam river, he wouldn't want two hearts in his hand. His turn x/r-jam with 9h8h actually isn't all that terrible, if he's putting hero on a hand like JTo with no heart, which hero could play this way. V's going to make his hand about 1/3 of the time. When V checks and hero bets 2/3 pot, all V can do is fold or shove. I'd like it better if he just donk-jammed, for max fold equity, but once hero bets 2/3 pot, jamming with his specific hand is better than folding. Hero's 3B on the flop is repping JTo, some KJo combo with the Kh, and some draws that were un-paired. Hero probably isn't checking back turn with JT, and V doesn't know hero made a pair with the 6 on the turn, so if the turn goes check-check, hero's range on the river is capped at KJo or king-high. V's x/r on the flop is repping some weak Ax combos, and some JhXh combos like Jh9h. if the turn goes check-check, V wouldn't bet river with any worse Jx for value on the river, because he isn't beating hero's KJ combos. If V has some weak ace, he might check turn, but he's probably not going to jam 2x pot on the river, unless he's trying to make it look like he's bluffing, hoping to get called by KJ or K-high. A weak ace would be more likely to take block-bet sizing, and hope to get value from KJ. If V wants to bluff the river with 9h8h, he might just want to take block-bet sizing, to make it look like he could have some weak ace. If he bets $120 into $300 on the river, hero's not going to love calling with KJ or King-high, knowing he's losing to any ace, and that V probably isn't betting a worse Jx.

[@BigBooty555]

@@1vailchris This level of analysis is ridiculous given the stakes and the actual actions taken in the hand. The villain bluff raised turn with no fold equity, of course he could lead river on bricks. And fine, maybe he doesn't jam for 2x, but based on his zero fold equity raise on turn with a bluff, he's betting on brick rivers a lot.

[@joshmullins4849]

This hand is a great example of one of many reasons not to play limps. That mostly matters when you get raised behind but regardless you can never rep this board. Check-raise shouldn’t happen. Now it’s weird when button is also capped for the same reasons so 3bet should also not happen. Overly aggressive from both players and a good example of what happens when you play too aggressive with a capped range against someone who can notice that. Both players deserve to lose this hand.

[@1vailchris]

🤣😂😅Usually it's sad when one player has to lose. Here, it's sad that one player has to win!

[@ZeraLord]

My granny told me three things. 1). Always brush your teeth after a meal, 2). Don't forget your family. and 3). Never go broke in a limped pot.

[@JohnSmith-nx7zj]

Hero was the button straddle. I guess you’re just saying don’t straddle? But either way it’s a bit like saying “don’t play a limped pot” when you’re the big blind.

[@1vailchris]

@@JohnSmith-nx7zj I think he's saying, in this spot, we can go ahead and raise on the BTN when multiple players limp in front of us.

[@joshmullins4849]

@@JohnSmith-nx7zj You will note that I said check-raise shouldn’t happen. I was talking about villain’s perspective initially. The fact that we check our option in the straddle also leads to my opinion that we shouldn’t be 3betting flop. Basically two guys just going to war without thinking about what they are actually able to rep (i.e. very little).

[@arthritisankle]

That sounds like a fun game!

[@Melodika.Sounds]

Honestly the check jam on the turn makes absolutely no sense Reason when hero 3! Flop and he calls then 6of on the turn villain check jams I had so many question marks in my head

[@Michael_Bancroft]

Even playing 2/5, I'd expect to be up against AJo, ATo and especially JT a bunch here. If he's good enough to realise I probably can't have KQ and definitely don't have a set, he can easily rip it in here on the turn.

[@Conductor2711]

At 2/5, you think AJo and ATo would limp with two limpers and a straddle behind, then check the flop 4-way with only the BTN straddle who could have any two cards left to act and is probably checking, even with 2 hearts out and any K or any Q having a straight draw? That seems... Not good. JTo would make sense as a limp pre, but still a dicey check on the flop in my mind.

[@richardtalbott2364]

Caller is a donkey I crush consistently at the ‘bowl! This is the best game in Atlanta area! Nobody folds in this game so there is no such thing as a semi bluff ever with these idiots. I have crushed this game for years!

[@alwaysup22]

Can I get the address to this home game?

[@PokerViruz]

I’m from Houston I thought btn straddle getting ultimate last action was universal

[@ticenits1926]

This is also a prime example of why you almost never 3bet the flop, only hands with significant equity can call. Your opponent can have just too many made hands that were trapping, none of which you beat. Unless of course you flopped a set and there were three people going to war on this type of texture, then you're just giving them an attractive price to get stacks in with their draws or coolers.

[@pot_kivach160]

Story: How $13 pot on flop grew to $1522 with all parties holding nothing!?

[@tonytaranto7886]

First thoughts were 8 9 of hearts

[@bryanjohnson8162]

Why is there only 3 Queens instead of 4??

[@stevenundisclosed6091]

You can only bet the turn if you're willing to go all in.

[@Conductor2711]

100%. But this is such a bad line with any value hand I can imagine. Why would you check-raise twice for value with any of the very vulnerable value hands? The more I think about it, the bigger I'm a fan of hero's play.

[@Conductor2711]

To be clear, I think it's a bad line with every hand

[@1vailchris]

@@Conductor2711 I think this is a bad line with every hand for both hero and V. The only value hand I can give V that MIGHT get played this way and be sort of "correct" is Ac6c - top pair with a backdoor flush draw on the flop that improves to a likely-best 2P on the turn. Any top pair is probably the best hand on this flop. Hero can't rep anything stronger than JTo, and hero might just be stabbing at it with air, some sort of draw, or some Jx or Tx combo. If V's flop x/r gets called by a better Ax, he can hit his kicker or pick up a club draw on the turn. V should probably fold to hero's 3B, because it's really just repping JTo, but if his x/r bluffs that continue are all combo-draws, he can rep a flush on any heart or a straight with a non-heart K/Q/9/8/7 on the turn, giving him 26 bluff outs. There's no reason why V would put hero on KhXh, the way this was played, so it would be reasonable for him to think he could rep a flush or straight if one of his bluff outs hits.

[@Conductor2711]

@@1vailchris Wait, you think this is a bad line for all of hero's hands, too? I would think JTo would absolutely want to 3-bet the flop rather than risk 3 people seeing the next card, and would absolutely bet the turn as well.

[@1vailchris]

@@Conductor2711 I'm fine with playing JT this way, depending on our opponents' tendencies. But I think we can make a case for raising pre with JT when it checks to hero on the BTN. After it basically limps around pre, and when V in UTG+1 x/r's the flop, I can also see just flatting on the flop, rather than 3B'ing. SB already folded, and it's unlikely UTG is going to double-flat the x/r with any hand that's going to fold to hero's 3B. If UTG happened to limp in with KQ, AT or TT, or he has a good combo-draw or pair+draw sort of hand, he's not folding, and may just want to get stacks in on the flop, either after seeing UTG1 x/r and hero call, or especially when he sees UTG1 x/r and hero 3B. There's no reason for him to keep slow-playing straights, sets, 2P or a monster combo draw facing that sort of action from two opponents. If UTG doesn't have a hand that wants to get stacks in on the flop, he's probably not calling the x/r behind us. Other than KQ, AT and TT, JTo has all our opponent's value combos crushed on the flop, but we're not that far ahead of their good draws. V's actual hand of 9h8h is basically a coin-flip vs. JTo, and KhJh and QhJh are both a 60% favorite. So I might want to just flat with JTo, let UTG stay in the hand with his entire range, and look to bomb the turn if it checks to us on a brick.

[@willh4340]

I could get on board with 3-betting the flop, to blow the guy off a hand, IF he had ONLY the straight draw, or IF he ONLY had a low to middling flush. But with BOTH draws to the nuts, he wants to have as many people pile as many chips into that pot as possible!

[@michaelstephens9852]

89h never guessing that.😂. I love poker.

[@johnchristopher1260]

Was this game at the fishbowl?!?!?

[@blazin5542]

No but if you lookin for the game I can help :)

[@tims2927]

I was thinking villain might be doing that with QJhh, boy was I wrong

[@1vailchris]

Neither opponents' line makes much sense here. It's hard for hero to have better than JTo on flop. V really can't rep anything strong enough to x/r and expect anything better to fold. V's best value hand on the flop might be Jh9h or some weak Ace. If V turned over Ac6c, that wouldn't have been too shocking.

[@kitbillion7783]

Super unnecessary spot. Just bet 5 dollars on the flop, call flop check raise, call any turn bet and fold river is the best line

[@kitbillion7783]

I really dont see the point in using bad sizings just because it's a live game. i can see you size up for value multiway, because your opponents are oblivious, but what does potting accomplish here?

[@willh4340]

If you're not gonna call a shove on the turn, you have no business betting! I absolutely disagree with you saying the shove on the turn is a bad play. I disagree. He usually has clean flush AND clean straight outs (at least on one end), AND he almost got the better hand to fold, even though the hero never should have even considered folding!

[@banks7714]

750 effective and the open is 3 to 5 😂, if a 2 5 or 5 5 competent player is in this game like he claims he would 100% be opening to 12 to 15 this deep lmao

[@tyresswhitejr]

For the record called a Mississippi straddle.

[@wolflarsen4744]

Am I too tight thinking that flop is a check 100?

[@Unhingedanduninformed]

Yeah. Nut flush draw and gut shot to the nut straight, I’m betting 100

[@tryptameme4509]

Yes

[@Conductor2711]

My take is that I want to bet a lot of marginal aces for value and protection here, I think, especially with this many people in and no one showing any strength (and since I'm last to act on the flop), and if I'm going to bet marginal aces, I want to bet the best combo draws. K6hh dominates most of the other potential draws, so it's pretty good.

[@Conductor2711]

Also JTo. I can get here with JTo, it's almost certainly good right now, and it is very vulnerable against any opponent having any flush draw, any K, any Q, and any A. The fact that I don't think JTo gets to check the flop from any position is why I think marginal aces can bet it too from the BTN: checking JTo is so dangerous that I discount my opponents having it by the time it gets to me

[@1vailchris]

@@Conductor2711 I was thinking it's hard for either player here to rep a hand better than JTo on the flop, but you're right in that it's more in hero's range than V's here, when it gets checked to hero. V's line is so strange, because he really can't rep anything strong with his flop x/r. I think V's best hand on the flop might be Jh9h, or maybe some weak ace. After hero 3B's flop, I could see V x/r'ing flop and x/r-jamming turn with Ac6c. That's really the only strong value hand I could see V playing this way. There just aren't many hands that make sense for either player here.

[@dennisdupuis1567]

3 K, 2 6, 4 Q, 8 hearts I see 17 outs

[@stevenundisclosed6091]

I'm increasingly finding that I don't need many of these Crush Live Poker videos. I almost always come to the same conclusion as Bart does before he says it. This hand is another example. It makes no sense to three bet the flop.

[@YourPalJamieEllis]

If you find you're thinking like Bart Hanson 90% of the time and you're able to put that into action while you're playing as well, you sound like a decisively winning poker player.

[@stevenundisclosed6091]

@@YourPalJamieEllis I am, but I still find some stuff to learn from the CLP videos. And the non-hand videos are definitely interesting.

[@Conductor2711]

I can't believe I'm about to defend the flop 3! too... But if we posit that only UTG and not UTG +1 has Ax and Jx based on the flop action, then I kinda see some merit in a bet that incentivizes UTG to fold and UTG +1 to call.

[@Eouseauctioneering]

How competent can he be when he limps

[@timditmer9549]

Based on the way he played the hand, villain is likely incompetent, however, I would argue it's not because he limped. A. He over-limped, not necessarily bad. B. Limping is mostly bad in high rake environments, the fact that it caps your range, and that it's easily punished by big iso raises. If your opponents are too weak to use larger iso raises against limpers, and they are too incompetent to identify your limping range (and punish you on boards where you are capped,) it's not necessarily bad to limp something like a small pocket pair, and encourage more players to enter the pot so you can set mine. Against a table with at least a few good players though you basically should only ever overlimp and never open limp. A 1-1 home game likely doesn't have good players though. I would probably open limp from early position with my small pairs, perhaps weaker suited aces and maybe suited connectors in this environment, and almost never get punished for it.

[@matt_cah]

Fucking hilarious. I know the villain and he's a mega profitable player 5-5. These gt kids are free money tho.

[@juhdah2146]

Big pot for a $1/$1 game.

[@topthecat2259]

villain also wins with non heart Q or 7

[@noex100]

Villain wins with a queen??? You sure about that one, bud?

[@topthecat2259]

@@noex100opps

[@rudenurse2561]

👽

[@lincolnjeon2666]

he had you figure out, just got unlucky with the 6 turn, you lay down with out the 6 or no flush,

[@rppoker8541]

What a luck box

[@philip-op6de]

It’s $1/$1 poker man, these guys aren’t playing great at that level that’s why it’s $1/$1 😂

[@tellarshout7273]

zynga style

[@ticenits1926]

Lol caller is overthinking things here, none of these people are pros, it's a 1/1 home game for crying out loud. They're all fish, as evidenced by these plays. Whatever he thinks about this guy being some professional 2/5 player is obviously wrong, and the guy is probably a loser in those games too.

[@moaf2padventures757]

lol tbf to the caller he said villain a) was the best player at the table and b) regularly played 2/5, both of which could very easily be true despite the fact that this guy seems pretty bad from the little evidence we have.

[@ticenits1926]

@@moaf2padventures757 what im trying to say is that hero's assessment of villain is irrelevant because his observations are meaningless. He has neither the experience or skill to make logical analysis of his opponents.

[@bertrandsmith9478]

I used to play a similar home game of that small size while regularly playing 5/10 for profit. There is also no casino near Atlanta so it’s littered with home games whose sizes are very deceptive. There are 1-3 games with 5K+ average stacks

[@moaf2padventures757]

@@ticenits1926 what im trying to say is that you may be correct that he lacks the skill and experience to logically analyze his opponents, yet what he said could also be literally true despite that.

[@MyComedyStore]

All home games should play WOKE poker which means any king can be a queen and any queen can be a king.

[@JiveDadson]

👎

[@lincolnjeon2666]

his turn bet ,, low amount threw him off. he had aequity if you ddidnt lay down if you lay donw he wins. he has the same equity and represent at. you just had the nut flush and hit a pair on turn, dead 6 got lucky

[@lincolnjeon2666]

his small turn bet gave him the courage to shove, put you on a ak aq