Problems in Early Christian Depictions of Hell - Meghan Henning

Meghan R. Henning, contributor to "Deconstructing Hell," gives a few examples of problems in early Christian depictions of hell.
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[@williama.hovestreydt6623]

Great post! Thanks

[@davidzauhar6813]

Upvoted on the insight regarding worms in the Biblical and classical texts . . . And paused briefly at the "ADHD is just badly managed sin." Ouch! Luckily, I could shake it off (after a brief prayer of gratitude about never being on Twitter) and listen to Dr. Henning's critique of that cringe-inducing claim and the rest of the post...

[@BenClemens-ok9fp]

Worms fertilise the soil, prepare it for new life.

[@hjbhfvf]

Understanding and believing in universal restoration does not neccesistate embracing this vapid grievance mongering. "Disabled bodies used as figures of punishment". Roman culture influenced Christians. Truly insightful stuff give her infinite grants for this cutting edge analysis.

[@BenClemens-ok9fp]

Gender-affirming norms.

[@chendaforest]

What is the point you are trying to make?

[@justchilling704]

@@chendaforest That we don’t have to embrace left wing hyper sensitivity to accept universal reconciliation.

[@chendaforest]

@@justchilling704 nor Trumpism

[@Phoenixspin]

Hell yeah!

[@dashcamacademy6457]

Great contribution, good questions this raises, thank you Meghan. Unending hell is problematic: not only because of the infinite disproportion between the offense and punishment (i.e. a finite offense met with an infinite sentence without the possibility of restoration); the senselessness of the punishment (i.e. there is no purpose to the sentence other than retribution); the incoherent, unbiblical, dualistic notion that God's will and desire can be frustrated by human beings (evil and rebellion will persist forever, side by side with God); but perhaps most shocking of them all, as Meghan alluded to in the video, it is completely out of character for an omnipotent God who is love, beauty, truth and goodness itself. God will be All in all and every knee shall bow and every tongue confess. How will this happen? Through His infinite love and mercy for all, as witnessed on the Cross.

[@justchilling704]

I’m not an unending Hell person but you’re only addressing the most fundy view of eternal separation from God, what C. S. Lewis argued for example, is infinitely more merciful than the annihilation view, and is second along with the EO view, only to universal restoration.

[@dashcamacademy6457]

@@justchilling704 The "hell is locked from the inside" position of CS Lewis (or the "free will defense of hell", as it popularly referred to) is as irrational and incoherent as it is cruel. Irrational as it supposes that human freedom is or can be an undetermined openness to anything. But as Christians we believe that our natures are oriented toward God, and that our liberty consists, not merely in choosing, but in choosing well. To suppose then that a person can infinitely persist in choosing the irrational, and do so in the light of the Good that is God, is pure insanity. Furthermore it is cruel for it supposes an unending Hell without remedial purpose, it is there simply to let suffer those in insanity and without hope. To not choose God is to not have known Him. So no, CS Lewis doesn't fare any better than the fundies.

[@justchilling704]

@@dashcamacademy6457 A father that allows his child to live but suffer apart from him is always and infinitely more merciful than a farther who kills his child bc they don’t want to be with him. Lewis is right, your attack is nonsense, free will/agency is the ability to choose other, this is both the biblical usage and common usage. Your definition of freedom is similar to Calvinistic compatiblism which is nonsense. Edit: And like Lewis said it would be on the individual as scripture is clear of what God desires for everyone. It’s suffering of self inflicted suffering, not Dad killing you bc he doesn’t love you, how you can justify that over Lewis’s exposes a lack of clear thinking, or very misguided thinking.

[@dashcamacademy6457]

@@justchilling704 My friend, you stoop low, the sadistic and cruel choices you present, masquerading as "free": a father that permits senseless eternal suffering, or else a father that kills his creature. No, that's not the good news of the Gospel, nor the God of love who wills that all will be saved, who will be All in all. You preach a false Gospel. There's an Apostle that has some things to say about that.

[@yqafree]

The configuration of all these thoughts are so rooted in the 'heart based' leftwing terms, and so conformed to them that it's choking to listen to this. First off, I really cannot blame Rome for their cultural positions against desiring to not be ill or diseased. The same kinds of attitudes are clearly in the Mosiac legal system as well, how lepers and disabled people often were cast down in the Levant. Even ancient Chinese writings depict how those who couldn't contribute much to work would tend to be rejected by larger society. It was standard that most families abandon the unhealthy diseased and lame, from their children often being left for dead to a father who could not provide, these people were (and still today often) are treated as undesirable. Caretaking families could not require the community or government to take on their values to take those medically discharged people on as they one by one passed away. Could these aspects of the general culture of the classical and even premodern period inform notions around ideas of "Hell" ? Yes, and when the Gnostic aspects of the text devalue dualistic positions and how bodies themselves reveal the troubles of the condition of duality being often a matter of hardships and suffering which no amount of attitude adjustments can change the facts about. Still it's not the specific insights that were trying to be conveyed as much, I'll return to this. Also let us not blame Rome as she did about 'the punishment fitting the crimes' when one of the near Eastern and middle Eastern values was "an eye for an eye" and they had court systems all about getting even, not a purely Roman idea but again an often highly regarded justice system notion throughout the ancient world and even exists today in our courts, for better and for worse. Although the semantics of how she phrased it was easy to miss, about the most clear and wise thing I got out of this was how she basically said that false views around "Hell" and an emphasis on the negative and unfair aspects of existence being the focus of biblical exegesis and Christian culture (or any religious culture with similar ideas) will always diminish and detract from the secure ideas found in what is being ultimately promised. She again used very different words to say this kind of thing, trying to avoid saying that being disabled is less than ideal, maybe to avoid being marked as some bigot or something, but if anyone's being honest, it's generally better in 99% of normal life to be a highly skilled athlete with total bodily functions than be highly impaired in the body, and that goes for other aspects of great human performance as well. But even being relatively more skilled doesn't even get us out of the fact that bodies themselves are like a burden, and limited knowledge is like a curse, as blessed as we can be on one hand on the other we know this condition is always ultimately less than ideal, but what's perfectly ideal is promised through Christ. Peace be with you all!

[@RocketKirchner]

The fact that Augustine applied Cicero ( both writers I love ) 8 steps of justice to the eternal was an error on his part , for as Tertullian states “ What has Athens have to do with Jerusalem “?

[@williamoarlock8634]

'Promised' through a consumer idol...

[@tommywarren4633]

In the Old testament people had multiple wives, and concubines, and is God told David if that wasn't enough I would have given you more, so why did you have to go over there and take that other man's wife, the only way to commit adultery in the Old testament was to take someone else's wife.

[@justchilling704]

That’s not true, or at least threes nothing in the Old Testament that says Adultery is only when a married woman has sex outside of her marriage. No such idea is mentioned. So at best you’re making an argument from silence.

[@christianuniversalist]

The uptalking…

[@RocketKirchner]

Dante was masterpiece fiction not dogma . Gnostic hatred of the body caused a lot of harm . Fire and worm are images of self hell like a collapsed star .

[@williamoarlock8634]

The bible and Judeo-Christian god know nothing of stars.

[@71suns]

Nothing whatsoever has changed.

[@cartesian_doubt6230]

I don't see the problem.

[@AnibalReyna-io1hr]

No Hell , total Restoration

[@Thomasrice07]

Fantasy

[@dashcamacademy6457]

@AnibalReyna-io1hr Amen to that! God will be All in all. That is the hope and glory of the Gospel, the good news that Hell has come to an end, Hades has been emptied. Every knee will bow, every tongue confess.

[@williamoarlock8634]

'Restoration' to what? This god that isn't there?

[@Mike-qt7jp]

Revelation 14:9-12 says," Whosoever's name is not found in the Book of Life are thrown into the Lake of Fire and the smoke of their torment roses forever and they shall have NO REST DAY OR NIGHT."

[@justchilling704]

Look up “grammatical shift”.

[@Mike-qt7jp]

@@justchilling704 Just say what you mean.

[@justchilling704]

@@Mike-qt7jp I did. Grammar shift. Use of word of words shift or change over time. Gay 60 years ago doesn’t have the same usage or Meaning today. Edit: The word translated as forever in English, doesn’t not have said meaning in Greek, and even in English at one point didn’t as eternal comes from a Latin word which was merely the Latin way of saying eon or age.

[@Mike-qt7jp]

​@@justchilling704Matthew 25:31-46, Then he will say to those on his left, “Depart from me, you cursed, into the ETERNAL fire prepared for the devil and his angels…And these will go away into ETERNAL punishment, but the righteous into ETERNAL life.” The three uses of ETERNAL above are all from aiōnion once again, meaning eternal or everlasting. So, obviously you believe ETERNAL life for the Christian will last FOREVER right? Same word for all three. If one is eternal so are the other two. This verse is making a contrast between ETERNAL fire for the wicked, and ETERNAL life (in God's Kingdom) for the righteous. And the wicked do NOT appear to be annihilated since the verse describing their punishment says, "...the smoke of their torment rises forever and they shall have NO REST DAY OR NIGHT."

[@justchilling704]

@@Mike-qt7jp I don’t affirm anihilation, it’s objectively the most morally objectionable view. However I would suggest you research grammatical shift, bc I figured you’d understandably so, reference this very passage. However the word eternal comes from a Latin word, eternus, it’s the Latin equivalent to the Greek Aon, which means age. The original Hebrew and or Greek of Matthew, used the term Aon, which means age, or a more modern usage could be say, season. Which is a limited time period. This is why this version is more accurate with this passage “‘Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say to you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of these, the least, ye did [it] not to me. And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life ageduring.’” ‭‭Matthew‬ ‭25‬:‭45‬-‭46‬ ‭YLT98‬‬ bible.com/bible/821/mat.25.45-46.YLT98 However this doesn’t mean, hell is somehow a picnic, only the foolish and truly wicked would rather hell than the willful embrace of God’s love. However nothing in the Bible teaches hell is eternal, only modern translations, and even with them, only bc our use of the word eternal has changed so much. However also keep in mind hell can’t be eternal bc eternal would have no beginning as well as no end, God alone is eternal.

[@Christs_Cowpoke]

HELL IS REAL! Repent of this lie you are spreading.

[@lvx969]

Most universalists believe in hell.

[@BenClemens-ok9fp]

Hell is trying to reason with damnationists.

[@johndalton1043]

I'm a qualified Christian Universalist. I believe in "hell", but it functions more like Gehinnom in Judaism, whereby the lake of fire is a word picture to describe a purification process. God as a refining fire is a common theme in the Bible. Earlier in Revelation, John has Jesus saying "I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire", so it appears obvious that John understood the refiner's crucible. So did Paul. He said, if a man's work is burned up he will suffer loss, he himself will be saved, but as through fire. So whereas most Christian Universalists are qualified, we do not believe the process of purification lasts forever. Those who believe the punishment lasts "forever" need to understand that there are other direct word for word translations of the Bible that not once translate aion as eternal, but rather an age. This understanding can radically change someone's theology. In every concordance or lexicon I can find...aion means an age. There are ways to imply something eternal. For example, Jesus said kingdom, power, and glory now and unto the ages. In this manner, eternal or perpetual time is implied due to the nature of God. That said, kolasis (corrective punishment) does not have this understanding imposed upon it whatsoever. Therefore, it is age-abiding or age-during correction/punishment. There is a smoke of their torment passage that states the smoke rises for ever and ever. And I get it. (Smoke rises forever and ever. Torture must be forever too. Hell is eternal.) But ask yourself...is forever plural? Can we add "and ever" to a word that means endless duration? No. What we can add to...are ages. Another major reason for CU is that outside of the KJV and NKJV,, no English translation has "hell" listed anywhere in the Old Testament. Granted, there are over 100 English translations...but only 2 have hell listed in the Old Testament. I find no warning to God's people of eternal hell to be the mother of all omissions. Thankfully, Paul seems to believe all of Israel will be saved. If that isn't shocking then try this one on, most English translations do not include hell in the New Testament either. The Old Testament term is Sheol. In the New Testament the terms are Hades, Tartarus, and Gehenna...and they are not the same concepts.

[@williamoarlock8634]

'Salvation' clearly isn't real.

[@kolasis4994]

@@johndalton1043 Falling on deaf ears unless the Holy Spirit grants ears to hear.