Product management theater | Marty Cagan (Silicon Valley Product Group)

Marty Cagan is a luminary in the world of product. He’s the author of two of the most foundational books for product teams and product leaders (Inspired and Empowered), he’s the founder of Silicon Valley Product Group (one of the longest-running product advisory groups), and he’s almost certainly worked with more product leaders and teams than any human alive. Now he’s releasing his newest book, Transformed, which is sure to become a staple of tech-powered companies worldwide. Marty’s previous appearance on our show remains one of the most popular episodes to date. In this conversation, we discuss:
• The rise of “product management theater”
• Changes in the PM role post-ZIRP and the shift from growth to build functions
• The disconnect between good product companies and online product advice
• How over-hiring has created challenges in the product industry
• The most important skills for PMs to build
• How to know if you’re on a “feature team”
• The potential disruption of product management by AI
• Marty’s new book, Transformed: Moving to the Product Operating Model
• Four new competencies required for successful product organizations
-
Brought to you by:
• Sprig-Build a product people love
• Eppo-Run reliable, impactful experiments
• Vanta-Automate compliance. Simplify security.
Find the transcript and references at: www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/pr...
Where to find Marty Cagan:
• X: / cagan
• LinkedIn: / cagan
• Silicon Valley Product Group: www.svpg.com/
Where to find Lenny:
• Newsletter: www.lennysnewsletter.com
• X: / lennysan
• LinkedIn: / lennyrachitsky
In this episode, we cover:
(00:00) Marty’s background
(04:46) His take on the state of product management
(12:08) Product management theater
(18:33) Feature teams vs. empowered product teams
(24:48) Skills of a real product manager
(29:27) The product management reckoning is here
(32:05) Taking control of your product management career
(34:59) The challenge of finding reliable product management advice
(40:18) The disconnect between good product companies and the product management community
(44:23) Top-down vs. bottom-up cultures
(47:06) The shift in product management post-ZIRP era
(49:44) The changing landscape of product management
(52:05) The disruption of PM skills by AI
(55:56) The purpose and content of Marty’s new book, Transformed
(01:02:05) The product operating model
(01:08:27) New competencies required for successful product teams
(01:11:25) Marty’s thoughts on product ops
(01:15:13) Advice for founders who don’t want product managers
(01:18:06) Lightning round
Production and marketing by penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email [e-mail].
Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

[@whattimeisitnow124]

Marty Cagan is sometimes too theoretical but I appreciate how Lenny pushes for practical advice.

[@paq2643]

I wished they go through an actual example for Top Down vs Product leaders doing product strategy. The challenge I see at times is when finding the sweet spot of what is a bet that leaders can hand down to product teams vs what is handing down a roadmap. Without finding that sweet spot, we get to confusing situations like when you disagree with leaders (see comment from @orgrinberg7977). This is maybe because of inconsistent language, they are confused on what is "features" to hand down vs "bets" to hand down. I haven't read the new book, so hopefully there are more details there.

[@alexeyhimself]

Interviews with Marty are the ones I click "like" button first and then start watching. Thank you, Lenny! Thank you, Marty!

[@EbiAtawodi]

Same ❤

[@rajats497]

Ditto!

[@piotrpacewicz4108]

Great interview, from my experinece I can share that even when company wants to switch to product way , work on outcomes, not on outputs, company fails because accounting, board is not outcome driven. It is much easier for board and accouting to use feature factories, project approach for planning budget. So even when company experiments with empowerd product team at the end Product Manager is asked for road map of items and time table "you know, just for accounting, to get founding" and thats spoils whol way of working

[@tugcekasikci8027]

7:41 Lenny’s try to hold the onair face tight when Marty said he’s a paid subscriber 😂 11:57 Marty giving a reality check to all companies who’s polishing their ideas kn this podcast 😂😂

[@devikottary3937]

Listening to Marty always always takes you back to the foundational of Product. It is like a lemonade on a summer day. Refreshing! Thanks Lenny, you are the best as always.

[@futureskyline2033]

After listening through 50 mins about what is not, what is not, what is not, things start to click for me: It is more than delivery; it is more than optimization! It is about leading new value. (discover, shape, and bet new value through product offering). To the nutshell, Product Team (2.0) = Innovation + Product Team

[@iamparagjain]

This podcast is amazing and eye opener to lot of people who just dont understand the product and project management. Thank you Lenny & Marty

[@orgrinberg7977]

As a PM for the last 6 years - Marty is 100% correct BUT when you have A set of managers and a board of directors, you are sometimes bound to deliver features you don't believe in. and if you disagree with them, you will quickly find yourself unemployed.

[@mikeprice2038]

HPPO is a real problem.

[@kensbrickstories]

This right here. i have just been fired for that exact reason.

[@Drackomass]

Fastest click to watch ever, love Marty Cagan.

[@TomOrbach]

Lol same

[@SA-cs5ci]

As a beginner explorer of this field feeling so fortunate to have the right definition of the role and everything around it from the best himself. Such a refreshing episode, thanks Marty AND Lenny for making this happen!

[@JonSchleicher]

I feel there is so much to what Marty is saying about really good people, "in Earnest" trying to do the right thing. "The willing worker" as deming used to say. There's so much to being lucky, to being fortunate enough to have the right exposure to truly Customer focused ways of working. Lots of noise to find healthy ways of working, i really care about the outcomes of teams and solving problems. The world is a better place for myself, my kids, my friends and it's sustainable all around. There's an og by the name of deming that focused on product experimentation almost 70 years ago. He was part of a group that transformed Japan in ww2. At the end of the day all the learnings and practices fell to "the prevailing system of management". Had gm and Ford not been bailed out by us government, theater may not be a description of modern knowledge work

[@makerphin]

Really good vision of the state of product in 2024 One problem I have seen with empowered product teams vs. Feature teams : it’s too vague for executives. Telling them “we’ll improve the product and fix problems” against a feature that sales say could bring X in revenue. One seems concrete and brings B2B revenue, the other one seems more uncertain

[@wyattmadhani985]

For the most part I agree with Marty and love the candid perspective. I wonder if he has noticed something I have (15+ years), which is that many members of the executive management around product today are $$ people, i.e., lots of MBAs, many of whom have never worked in product at the hands-on level but are now SVPs of product or CPOs. The directives that come from these guys with an "or else" attached have changed the expectations of what the role is all about. It becomes a bit of a culture clash, no?

[@haywardtreysparks]

As someone who's an aspiring Product Manager super helpful to learn what Product Management ISN'T as well as what it IS! Rivian is my dream vehicle. Thanks for the great Podcast!

[@anarchycharles]

I hope this episode serves as an awakening call to all the founders and product leaders who say we can’t do things this way. Truly valuable lesson here.

[@tinyloudredhead]

Am i the only one snooping around Marty's book shelf? 😂

[@raducrv1]

I work in a company with feature teams and is exactly how Marty describes it.

[@sabke-bhagwan]

i have the same belief, the fact that the material and courses out in market is already spoiling our next generation which is a fact, i am going to contribute from my side on whatever i can, thank you @lenny for this one.

[@gustavocomitre]

Really good one, thanks Lenny and Marty, one of the best podcasts!

[@alexanderferguson7520]

Marty is an OG in product thought and I'm so glad we got another round of this

[@vegahw]

I would love for him to dive deep into why feature teams form. I think the real reason of why we have roles like PO and “Product Assistants” is because leadership fails at strategy and outlining those bets to go after and it results in lack of focus (build all the things), which then results in feature teams. At least that’s how I see it.

[@JonSchleicher]

Feature teams is very close to a relic of "fixed skill set bank accounts to deposit from when needed". Also known as "resources". Which traces back to the first modern innovation, assembly line, economies of scale, fordism, taylorism. Not new things, just self-propagating and hand me down leadership and product playbooks.

[@Tubingonline1]

That is an excellent insight. Thanks for sharing 👍

[@user-iq3ti1yh6c]

Great podcast!!! Great guest!!! Super valuable information!!!

[@FMSims]

This was great. Will be sharing this widely!

[@rachealcee]

Two of my faves!

[@ankur4270]

Marty Cagan is dope.💪

[@markspringfield6112]

Agree with everything said here. Crazy thing is the number of companies still hiring specifically for product ownership or product operations and insisting on SAFe certification. You can understand the difference between adding value and just going through the motions, but if the company that's hiring you doesn't then you're stuck competing with all of the feature team people.

[@jgonsalk]

Great interview! One criticism I've always had for Marty is that he argues that PMs should always do what the best companies do. I don't disagree, I work in a product led company. But I'd love to see some first principles thinking or, even better, empirical support for this approach. I wonder whether feature factories exist because the business model doesn't have the margin or opportunity to see substantial return from this approach or if they just have people who are incapable of doing this (I've definitely seen the latter)

[@tinyloudredhead]

Given my background studies in enteprises at scale: "feature factory" or "sales led" orgs have one common problem statement: weak Marketing culture (push culture or bad understanding of market research and reuse) - That's why the industrial design parallel is relevant. The fact that a lot of money was thrown at "innovation" without validating a market need did not help. Herd mentality to have/want the latest feature isn't helping either. Some technologies may have been premature on the market. Also airbnb example- as much as airbnb is cool i wonder if Lenny would confirm if airbnb would have taken off for re-use of existing spaces if the morgage/2008 recession would not have forced people to find alternative revenues. Not fair to attribute success without the market conditions at the time. Here's the marketing history evolution which did not catch on at scale as a competency for a wider org instead of an "industrial age functional department" or people don't know its history to see how they are repeating old mistakes (reinventing the wheel - engineering or sales teams tend to lack this knowhow, sales may be just chasing quota, the conflict between sales and marketing is known and old in most orgs - outside the tech bubble) fullscale.io/blog/the-evolution-of-marketing/

[@Kamso316]

A product manager is a creator focused on value (to the customer) and viability (to the business). A product manager should be an: Expert on users and customers Expert on data Expert on sales, data, monetisation etc

[@haywardtreysparks]

The most valuable part for me as someone trying to become a GREAT product manager.

[@strantheman]

Many times the reason why they have so many project managers or product managers who do project management is they think the engineers can't be trusted to do the work on their own. They think they need some sort of authority figure over them to manage them.

[@SocialDemocraciaPT]

Received the book last Monday 4th in Europe. I highly recommend getting the book Transformed (and the other 2 to complete the trilogy of PM) 😊

[@FarhaanMohideen]

Loved this podcast… have been following Marty for many years

[@jninlove]

Great interview❤

[@vitorzucher435]

two legends get together.

[@mimkusss4e]

Good talk - thank you both.

[@francismumbi49]

I am with Marty Cagan....

[@annxiao7721]

I was laughing so hard. I love his strong language. Meanwhile I think it’s a losing battle. It’s human nature to be lazy to think and to criticize. Very few can do that.

[@user-iq3ti1yh6c]

Dear Lenny, where is the information mentioned in podcast?!!! It is a such a useful feature!

[@sagsur1933]

I've seen product managers at companies trying their level best to actually innovate and upper management freaknig out and steering them towards good becoming feature teams. During mass layoffs who do you think got fired? The product manager.

[@LWarrenF]

How about this one: a SAFe RTE + program manager for just three teams? Plus a whole bunch of BAs, a scrum master, POs, a product manager, and an executive over those. The benefit of this arrangement was that most people didn't have to work more than 2 hours a day :)

[@brettharper4778]

Hey Marty! Great interview!

[@stephenc9813]

Juat finished Inspired, by Marty. What a treat! Thanks again Lenny, keep the pace going! ❤

[@ahmedodufuwa9792]

Great stuff here

[@KaiMelo]

Why does he say that having a product manager and a product owner is an anti-pattern? Can anyone share resources on that?

[@CarlosPMartin_]

What article is the one he mentions around minute 32 that made the rounds?

[@ash1m]

Whats the car rental startup that Marty mentioned in the lightening round?

[@InfectedTofu]

The problem of marty with POs stems from the same one he claims people have with PMs - he talked to bad POs who are really only backlog managers. A real PO is exactly what he claims a PM is - someone who is accountable for value and viability. For larger organizations I agree a team needs a PM as Marty describes, as the PO is much more akin to a CEO - prioritization on larger scale and strategic scope. But Scrum is defined for a one team (4-9 people). There, the PO and the PM is indeed typically one role, as you don't really need two people doing these activities full time in such a small scale. If you look at scaled scrum frameworks, they typically have a completely different definition of a PO - the scale changes the work. They will not assign a PO per team - then it's no longer Scrum. When you do that, you get the types of POs Marty is justifiably complaining about.

[@user-rc7dc5ku5m]

Finally someone told the truth))

[@Tenelia]

Disparaging remote work at this time is akin to condemning the utility of the first automobiles because of cobblestone roads. I'll wait for the sociology research to catch up.

[@azharhabeebmohameds7920]

Is there a way to like this video multiple times 😊

[@LennysPodcast]

🤣🧡

[@prateekgour07]

Great podcast Lenny and Marty. One question that was not clear the ways to upskill PM. It was mentioned 90% of the online content is not right but then how to get that 10% and how to verify if it is right ???

[@AnkitaShettyYT]

Read his books

[@alexeyhimself]

A Rivian! And 2 BMW motorcycles! Wow! 😲 Tell me what your Product Leader drives and I'll tell you who you are! 😄👏

[@akashhande]

I watched this and I am having an identity crisis. Someone please share one of those product theatrics podcasts that Marty talks about.

[@anuragkale6269]

What is that Data Management Systems book in Marty's bookshelf at 7:37? It s the leftmost book in the lower shelf. Google does't seem to bring up that book by title.

[@LennysPodcast]

I just asked Mary about this, here's his answer 🤯 -- That is actually the very first book published on database management systems, and the author was none other than my father, Carl Cagan. Published in 1973 by John Wiley & Sons He was also the first Computer Science PhD in the US.

[@anuragkale6269]

Wow! Thanks for finding that out Lenny!

[@ot3991]

Who was the guest Lenny and Marty spoke about with respect to Product Ops? At 1:14:23

[@LennysPodcast]

These two: kzbin.info/www/bejne/b4fHmquDbrCDhJY, kzbin.info/www/bejne/qni2XoGerdeBlbM

[@francismumbi49]

I use LaTex

[@DingoBingo4000]

#MartyGPT

[@ghogarth]

My version is "How do I know what I think until I see what I say?" 🙂

[@franciscosanchez2585]

Does someone recognize the book that has build on the name?

[@morphieus16]

Tony Fadell, Build

[@morphieus16]

Tony Fadell, Build

[@franciscosanchez2585]

Thank you

[@mleanca]

Mark 32:00

[@bdm233]

At 43:16 who is Christian that they both talk about?

[@LennysPodcast]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/iYm8lGiIpLpmgsk

[@Olexandr____]

Great stressing air... For 40 minutes!!!! Nothing particular was shared yet

[@randalx]

Are there any certifications that follow the Empowered Product Team model?

[@yujiaoli947]

helpful tips: so called "product team" can just low-level feature team; those fancy agile coach could be useless and cause waste;

[@No_914]

Sounds like a commercial for his book

[@lyasandrovych]

Agree. And not in a positive way but with over-salted criticism. I will listen for the second time to grasp the ideas better rather than the stile of spitting venom in the hope of winning customers and persuading.

[@praveensg]

Sounds like you are just warming up to his concepts. Read the other two books. He talks about the same stuff. I love him for being factual.

[@muriloams]

Product Ops being responsible for educating PMs instead of the Product Leaders is just an heresy and a huge waste of money.

[@krishsangs6610]

Wtf is Product ops anyway..

[@dendi1076]

agile coaches, yes. worked with them before, they're fking overpaid clowns disrupting actual delivery work