Professor John Lennox discusses the Problem of Suffering

[@simonbrown1486]

Because Jesus Christ rose from the dead we can grasp hold of it with all of our mind and soul and strength! Praise be to God!

[@joewright9879]

Yes! The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ of Nazareth is at the very center of Christianity. Praise His holy name.

[@mcmanustony]

And you know he rose from the dead how exactly?

[@simonbrown1486]

@@mcmanustony why do you not believe it?

[@mcmanustony]

@@simonbrown1486 The lack of evidence.

[@mcmanustony]

@@simonbrown1486 the same reason you don’t believe Mohammed ascended to heaven on a winged horse

[@beemer2869]

Astounding John. You are so gifted at representing our Christian faith, a true gift from God. Your purpose on earth is clear to see. I share your total faith. Your references to His Word through the Holy Bible, your intelligent and logical answers to difficult questions is astounding, and joy and peace at knowing and having a relationship with our Creator and Redeemer, radiates from you, and is a joy to see Nothing in the athiestic world view comes close to explaining while we are here, why we have value, and the peace and comfort this brings to believers. God is amazing, and you, Mr Lennox are serving Him wonderfully well, I am in awe of your gift from Him who made us and who loves us unconditionally. God bless you, and thank you. ❤️🙏❤️

[@ericday4505]

Brilliantly stated John, that silence you hear is atheists who are trying to come up with an answer, they have none they never have, they just look to tell someone they are wrong.

[@onsenguy]

that's because there is no answer. religious people like to fabricate one that's totally implausible but that makes them feel warm and cozy.

[@instrumentofdivinejustice4570]

@@onsenguy I’d feel a lot more cosy if I was convinced that I will not be held accountable for my actions, which is the atheist world view. I could go about stealing, killing, and committing evil acts because the only thing that I have to look forward to is death. If you are an atheist, you are incapable of condemning evil with your ideology. Simple as.

[@onsenguy]

@@instrumentofdivinejustice4570 as a freethinker myself, I don't believe there's a celestial policeman watching over me, yet I do not commit evil acts and I don't harm anyone, steal, or kill. I consider myself more open-minded, respectful, and considerate to others than most people. I imagine that must be difficult to digest for someone who was taught that we can only be good if we're superstitious or believe in the supernatural.

[@MrChris4251]

@@onsenguy I understand where you’re coming from, but how do you know you’re not committing evil acts? What reference do you use for the line between good and evil? If there is no celestial policeman, it seems to me that poses a problem for the existence of morality or truth in the first place. What do you think?

[@onsenguy]

@@MrChris4251 this is a common fallacy among religious thinkers. the reality is that the moral precepts of religion, such as "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not steal" have been around long before christianity or any of the major world religions. a society where theft and murder are common is inconvenient to everyone. also, if you look at the regions in the world that have the lowest amount of religious belief, such as the scandanavian countries, new zealand, australia, and canada, these areas have a lower rate of theft and murder than most other countries. this simple example shows there is no link between religious belief and abstaining from theft or murder. the prisons are NOT filled with atheists and freethinkers.

[@razorpayne13]

John Lenox is my HERO!!!!.... and William Lane Craig...

[@yakimabarreravaldes7145]

razorpayne13 mine too :)

[@beemer2869]

He is a truly gifted servant of our God.

[@goranmilic442]

​@@beemer2869 I take Christian claims about problem of evil and suffering and respond to them by changing general "evil" into particular sort of evil, for example "child rape". So, when someone says "evil and suffering exist so that we could appreciate good times", I translate that to "child rape exists so that children can appreciate times when they are not raped". "Evil exists because God respects free Will"="child rape exists because God respects free will of the rapist". "Evil exist so that we could be tested and closer to God"="Child rape exists so that children could be tested and closer to God".

[@barendse1]

@@goranmilic442 ok....are you trying to make a point against Christianity or point out a specific issue with the answer you've been given from some who claim to be Christians?

[@goranmilic442]

@@barendse1 I am making a point against a claim that there is a god that is both all-powerful and all-good.

[@hollayevladimiroff131]

Thank you!

[@musimod3610]

Be bless … my friend or hoping to be 🙏🏼🙌🏼🔥✝️

[@Johnshaw111]

John Lennox discusses the problem of being insufferably pompous. What a lovely humble Christian.

[@dresib]

Thank you very much for that insightful analysis of the argument :)

[@Shytot-1]

I bet he says everything you want him to say, if he told you things you didn't agree with he wouldn't be so insightful, would he?

[@kevinastraw]

With or without religion humanity suffers for without suffering it would not exist. It has come through to the present precisely because it can learn from suffering how to cope with it. Suffering is an essential and unavoidable part of animal life.

[@madenew000]

awesome, john!

[@Shytot-1]

I bet he says everything you want him to say, if he told you things you didn't agree with he wouldn't be so awesome, would he?

[@Jurassic56]

The only answer I can give is the one I already gave at the start - when God created the world it was good and the sin of man cursed the earth and everything that's ugly came after that. If that's not enough, Then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[@bdave2049]

The problem of evil and suffering does not disprove God's existence. But it does raise serious doubts bout God's nature. It makes it very difficult to believe that there is an all-powerful and all- good God.

[@nostaldamus7773]

the humans themselves brought suffering and dead in the world as they sinned - GOD did not created it at the beginning and determinded them to live in this circle - what GOD created was a free will and the consequence of the free will is often, that a second, third, fourth, fifth person has to suffer, if person number 1 decided to to something evil. for example, if person 1 is greedy and irresponsible, than he maybe starts poisoning nature to gain resources and thousands to millions of other persons will get very ill cause of the destruction of nature. of course thats just 1 simple example. to oversee the consequences of an action of a human being is almost impossible (butterfly effect), multiply that to billions of people with billions of actions per life. plus in addition the angels also got a free will, and according to christian teaching the devil was one of them. also well created, but decided to fight against GOD, he also makes use of his free will - and uses it to live out his hatred against mankind. Limits were and are set for him, but no human being can judge from the outside where these are, only God knows.

[@matshidisolithebe3804]

Dear BDave;... I Have NO Doubt About GOD'S NATURE - HE IS A GOOD GOD!!! Remember HE IS THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE IN HIS SOVEREIGNTY. At my Current Level Of CHRISTIAN GROWTH, I KNOW The DETAILS OF YESHUA'S CRUCIFIXION🙌🏾 AND THAT IT WAS HIS GODLY DETERMINED DESTINY. MEANING IN HIS DEITY, JEHOVAH GOD CREATED YESHUA FOR Our SALVATION🙌🏾. SO, the suffering in our lives is our destinies. BUT we are also responsible for some of our suffering " MY PEOPLE PERISH FOR A LACK OF KNOWLEDGE!!!" We NEED TO STRIVE To Know THE WORD OF GOD - THE BIBLE IS THE MANUAL OF LIFE. Some evil we can circumvent BY PRAYER AND KNOWING HIS WORD - THE DOUBLE ETCHED SWORD 🙌🏾. HALLELUJAH 🎚️🎚️🎚️

[@lanetaglio]

.."removes all hope of justice." Amazing point

[@bushfingers]

It's about time you conceded a bloody point :-) I believe inquiries into the nature of justice and hope are always relevant, whether expressed in a theistic or atheistic context. Many people of religions other than my own have quite different hopes to those that I have, but I would only very rarely (and in exceptional circumstances) try to take that hope away from them. Would I want Christianity (or any other religion) to ever be lost to humanity? Not at all. And the same goes for atheism.

[@nickallah]

youre welcome. Im glad someone found it truthful and funny.

[@farvision]

The extremely likely truth is that there are no gods. So do what you do and if it fails then so be it. If it succeeds, then so be it. If you are drowning, struggle to survive until all is lost or you win. That is 'hope'.

[@glenview8]

Amen.

[@JpAiMpEeSr]

So where did we get this other capacity to figure out not only what helps our genes to make it into the nest generation, but also to understand what is going on in the world? To put it another way what is the survival value of truth itself?

[@farvision]

Obviously I reserve my careful writing for publications, not for conversations on youtube.

[@JpAiMpEeSr]

The Christian world view tells us the reason we can do science. The reason we can understand the exterior universe with our interior minds, is because ultimately by what ever processes go back to rationality on God.

[@JpAiMpEeSr]

The foundation on which all science builds is faith. Faith that the universe is rational, faith that our minds are rational, and faith that the rationality of our minds mirrors the rationality of the universe. The worst thing about atheism is that its apposed to rationality; it gives no justification for believing science.

[@Mathenaut]

No, it was directed at bushfingers, in response to his personal attack. It seems to have appeared below your comment due to how youtube organizes these things.

[@JpAiMpEeSr]

How would you explain the origin of a finite universe from a timeless cause??? Please could you give me a better explanation for the incredible fine tuning of the universe to sustain intelligent life, other than a creator? Steven Hawkings says this "If the rate of expansion one second after the big bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have recollapased before it reached its present size." .

[@Cardnim]

Stunning.

[@Shytot-1]

I bet he says everything you want him to say, if he told you things you didn't agree with he wouldn't be so stunning, would he?

[@zytigon]

I'm impressed by John Lennox's open mindedness. He has explored some of the issues, to look at both sides. His view might be tolerable if everyone was going to a happily ever after. I have faith & hope that there is no hades [ would people meet the Titans there?] , to cease to exist seems ok to me; this was the fate which the Hebrews imagined Yahweh had in mind for them- sheol-non existence.

[@sidwhiting665]

12 years late to the discussion, but I would push back that ALL Hebrews imagined that Yahweh had a non-existence in mind for them. Perhaps some believed that, but we see the Book of Job that the eponymous speaker says, "I know that my redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand on the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God; I myself will see him with my own eyes-I, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!" Job 19:25-27. Too, we see King David respond when his son from his adulterous affair with Bathsheba dies, that he is confident, "He will not go to me, but I will go to him." He doesn't say, "I will be cease to exist like him." Clearly, King David anticipated some sort of reunion with the person of his son, and how else would he know that it is his son unless his son is able to somehow retain his individual nature?

[@zytigon]

@@sidwhiting665 ok you've got a point there that there were some who hoped to be immortal, existence beyond death. Well the ancient Egyptian kings hoped for an existence after death or why would they put material objects to help them in the here after. There were probably an assortment of ideas in every tribe about what happens when we die. A universalist view would be , "Wouldn't a loving competent god make sure no hell existed or if it had would have taken measures to totally undo it?" In a way Christianity says there was a problem but it is fixed now.

[@sentientist]

"death is not the end" this doesn't solve the problem of evil because it doesn't take animal suffering into account....unless he believes all animals have an afterlife.

[@instrumentofdivinejustice4570]

Isaiah chapter 11 depicts animals, both predator and prey, living in peace in Heaven. He likely does believe in animals having an after life.

[@youtubestudiosucks978]

​@@instrumentofdivinejustice4570define what you mean with "peace" when a "loving" god can drown innocent babies, infants, children, pregnant women, elderly, handicapped people and lets not forget every other animal over a small village of people in the desert exersizing their freewill which he supposedly gave to them knowing beforehand how they would act. I dont think you know what peace is nor loving.

[@monkeybrain1968]

Atheists have no hope...

[@freezingka3730]

...and the reason is?

[@ddll23]

Bc atheists have not absolute moral... but subjective morality. ... if i.e. hurting others makes you happy,, then me I cannot prove that what you're doing is wrong. Who judges what is good or bad...

[@ddll23]

Did you know. Atheist dictators killed the most in past centuries .. look it up

[@gaagsl]

Evil and suffering does not prove that God doesn't exist. It proves that god is evil. Nature is cruel and merciless and so is the god of the Bible.

[@Jcremo]

The words you use, evil and merciful indicate you have a moral standard. You can’t have one outside of God’s ordered universe. You’re just a blob of cells. I am too. In a world where God doesn’t exist we should be completely apathetic towards the sufferings around us, but yet we’re not. We see injustice and suffering and have righteous indignation over it, because we were made in the image of a loving creator.

[@bushfingers]

Okay, please tell me about hope in the absence of God. I really would like to find out more.

[@Mathenaut]

He implies this in the statement that 'Atheism removes all hope of justice'. It is at the height of imply that Justice either does not exist, or is not possible outside of belief in your particular brand of god.

[@darwinlaluna3677]

Don’t give ppl a situation that they don’t have a choice but to do it anyway, it is so hard to do when u don’t like what you r doing

[@bushfingers]

I can accept that, but it is not 'hope' in the usual sense of the word.

[@mcmanustony]

Why PROFESSOR John Lennox. His academic career was in mathematics- perhaps the only damn subject I've never heard him address....

[@bushfingers]

Dear polymath7 Some of his arguments are better than others. But where do get the idea that I admire him? - I don't think I have mentioned him once in any of my comments. I don't normally write directly insulting comments like I did above, but sometimes I just can't help myself when faced with dismal stupidity.

[@zytigon]

For the truth about religion try Robert M. Price, ' The reason driven life ' or John W. Loftus or Victor J. Stenger, ' God, the failed hypothesis' . Also interesting to have a look at the 1500BCE papyrus of Ani, with its god Osiris who weighs the heart to decide who can pass to the land of the living.[ The need to know the names of the gods & the negative confession & other magic texts to get there]. James Frazer's 'The Golden Bough' and C.S. Lewis, 'Mere Christianity'

[@polymath7]

Hey, bushfingers. I hope you got the email I sent. It's little more than a suggested list of topics we might discuss, but the question of "hope in the absence of God" (or, much more to the point, I think, "in the absence of an afterlife") is one I had overlooked and seems an excellent addition. It is also I suspect the only point on which we are likely in large part to agree.

[@bobmeoff1137]

Only God is perfect, Creation is not God, : Creation is imperfect.

[@Peace-wm7vc]

Well put 🙌🏽👏🏽

[@tomellis4750]

"Hope, Justice." Great, babies die in agony, but there's hope and justice. You are right, Atheism doesn't say your child died in agony but there's hope to see her in the afterlife, because it says there's Reality. Agony, pain, suffering is all around - that's Reality, no sticking loving gods into the equation.

[@JpAiMpEeSr]

To think like you I would have to believe that, nothing produces everything, non life produces life, randomness produces information, unconsciousness produces consciousness and non-reason produces reason. I would have to believe in existence with a creator, order without intelligence , laws without a legislator and design with out a designer.This wouldrequire a blind leap of Faith that I am not willing take.

[@9Ballr]

He gave no answer to the problem of suffering, except to admit that there is none. So you are just left with faith.

[@chaplainpaulvescio1417]

The evidence is in the millions and millions of lives that have been transformed into good for the glory of God and the Love and Power with in each them to endure great hardship and suffering with REAL HOPE Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. ( We do not see Abba Father, The Holy Spirit or Christ Yeshua in the flesh but we can clearly see the evidence of their handy work all around us each day..... John 14:27

[@arcticwolfgang4913]

Take a moment in silence and meditate on Christ crucified on the cross then one should be able to embrace the meaning and the effects of Jesus's suffering (a consequence of evil and sin although sinless himself, He bore ours for humanities merit ) and then in turn examine our own consciousness, our suffering's in our own lives and by uniting them with Jesus's sufferings on the cross one should be able to perceive how that would profit other souls. It could be said that we should not live only for ourselves but for others and that bearing our own cross is part of that, that is, to help awaken souls from a state of spiritual slumber.

[@lawrenceeason8007]

Designed suffering will always be an insurmountable problem for theism

[@copernicus99]

Unfortunately, we know that when the brain dies the person's consciousness dies too. So there is no possibility of an afterlife or reuniting with our loved ones. It's not a happy ending I know, but it's the truth.

[@nickallah]

dont worry ppl!! christ died on the cross!! dont worry about your suffering! hallelujah !!

[@Limbsy]

true

[@bushfingers]

Cool - a very interesting subject.

[@RichardSavery52]

who says atheist represent the main line of reason is sadly mistaken.

[@sukruoosten]

we all make mistakes end assumptions !!!! im sorry its just 99% of those comments are made by people who dont want a debate/argue about the subject but rather try to make religious people look weak you dont have to get angry god bless

[@beemer2869]

Well said. With all the evidence in the world, some people will still turn away from Him. They can't see beyond the here and now, they don't have vision or hope, instead pride stands in the way. Sadly, you can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make it drink.

[@BGfromGB]

@kgouws asks if John Lennox did not address the issue of God protecting the innocent from suffering. Well, maybe he did. He could have addressed this issue in any one of this other debates and /or books. Be that as it may, the Bible relates to stories where he did just that. The story of the leper comes to mind. There were numerous others. The question you may ask why them and not others? That's a question I cannot answer. But it does tell me how powewrful he is

[@feylezofriza]

God bless you too, if there is one, which I doubt.

[@Mathenaut]

Agreed, that Justice and Hope are open-ended concepts, that aren't so easily defined (Justice is blind, yes?). Thinking of it in one sense or another isn't so bad...but to say that it doesn't exist outside of faith? That is ridiculous.

[@bethr8756]

And if the daughter wasn't a Christian then what?? How do you deal with that

[@polymath7]

"Was this a cheap prod to cull my interest?" Was this addressed to me, Mathenaut? I wasn't alluding to you at all with my phrase "slobbering bovine stupidity" and none of my ammo was marked for yo to begin with. Sorry if it appeared otherwise.

[@Rawk4Life]

If you don't believe in a God, then you contradict yourself in saying "God bless you." Adding "if there is one" to your statement doesn't make it any less confusing.

[@kitas7]

@TYLERJB777 If there's no positive evidence to support your claim then I have no reason at all to believe its valid. I'm very curious what is your evidence (more like excuse) to sustain your assertion...

[@ivansanabria6633]

His answer for everything else s the resurrection of Jesus, a man that most likely didn't exist.

[@bushfingers]

Absurdism is a central element of existentialism (see the above mentioned philosophers for examples).

[@polymath7]

I didn't really get the idea that you admire him -given your apparent intelligence this seemed unlikely- I just wanted to ascertain this was not the case. And I have read enough of your comments to know that you are a nice and extremely fair-minded guy, and assure you I quite understand your difficulty in resisting the urge to become vituperative in the face of slobbering bovine stupidity. I can be almost brutally tactless myself -frequently to my own regret. Hope to hear from you soon.

[@bushfingers]

Let me help you. "If you honestly don't have the determination or will to find strength outside of your mental cage, then by all means, stay inside of it." That's ad hominem. "Don't claim that there is no hope outside of God. Plenty without God have hope, dreams, and aspirations.". That's begging the question, because the whole point under consideration is the nature of 'hope' without God.

[@bushfingers]

Fair enough. In the field of evolutionary biology?

[@christinedoe8192]

I'd say that's the number one go to, atheist belief about suffering, is to turn away from God, but it is interesting to me that they kinda beleive without knowing it , by turning away from what they disapprove of, God, God's ways, the allowing of suffering, they are angry at him, and I feel they are ANGRY, really angry at what they think if as a real God, cause otherwise if you don't believe in God, what are you angry about, don't waste your energy or get mad at the human with free will that's actually doing it.

[@onsenguy]

my goodness..what a glib, specious, unctuous rationalization of suffering.

[@whitestoneandy797]

Amen!

[@msmd3295]

Lennox is assuming naturalism eliminates “all” hope when it does Not. One can actually have hope in “statistics” because we’re all subject to the natural laws of the universe. And the things in nature are in a constant state of change. Meaning one person’s predicament is “bound” to change merely from a statistical viewpoint. That change may not be to our liking (such as aging) but it’s still “change” and could be bad or good. In fact that’s the “true” basis of hope. That the odds might work in our favor. One doesn’t need to believe in a god for hope. One problem though is hoping for realistic results based upon what’s known about the “real” world and Not the supernatural of which no one can know.

[@Jurassic56]

Well, the Bible says that when God created the world it was good. It was the sin of mankind that created disease and suffering. We abused the gift of free will, basically.

[@cperez1000]

@TYLERJB777, Per his statements Dawkins does not hate religious people, he hates religion as he considers them evil. Interesting you bring the word "afraid" as ironically it's mentioned is the Bible that you have to fear God. Atheist don't believe in N gods. Christians are atheists too in a way, since they don't believe in N-1 gods, in which N is a very large number composed by all gods of the present, the past, the future, from other planets, and the rest that are unknown.

[@sharonortedschempp8759]

The main "Blank" that John failed to "fill in," in this discussion on why God allows tremendous suffering revolves around three individuals two of who lived in "The Space-Time Continuum." These three individuals were Adam and Eve..... and of course Satan, who took on the form of a serpent.... in "the Space-Time Garden of Eden." This is not Green Mythology.... or any other Mythology.... but it is actual and real 'Space and real Time." When The Serpent was able to trick Eve, and then she was able to trick Adam, into disbelieving God's Reality and the Truth concerning The Tree which contained "The Fruit" (which wasn't an Apple) of the knowledge of good and evil, "Evil, Sin and Death" was unleashed into God's "Perfect World" due to Adam and Eve's disbelief and their disobedience. Consequently, that unleashing has brought these three horrific aspects into all Human Existence, and we are left with the consequences of their disobedience... which played directly into Satan's Plan. So...... God is not to blame, has never been to blame, and never will be to blame, for all of the evil, pain and suffering and death in our world...... and that is why He sent His "Only Begotten Son, Jesus" (John 3:16-17) into this world so that whosoever has surrendered to Him, and humbly acknowledged Jesus' "Payment for each person's individual sin" and also for "Mankind's General Sin," shall be saved. Here's "The Kicker:" The arrogant pride of most people simply won't accept Jesus' Sacrifice and payment for their sins..... because as John wrote in the opening lines of his Gospel of Jesus, "Men loved darkness rather than light.... they loved and still love their sin, instead of loving the light and forgiveness of God through Jesus' life, death, burial and resurrection! The Bottom Line: God has never been responsible for human suffering...... Adam and Eve... and each of us are responsible... down through the ages of human History...... Amen. Ted Schempp, Nashville

[@Mathenaut]

Should read: 'It is the height of arrogance to imply that Justice either does not exist, or is not possible outside of belief in your particular brand of god.'

[@nickallah]

cant hate natural forces for being mindless and indifferent. but you can hate god for being mindful and indifferent.

[@GodlessTrans]

So you have hope in suffering because you THINK some guy rose from the dead? We don't even know if he fully died and definitely can't prove he rose from the dead. Even if he DID rise from the dead, does not prove there is an afterlife or "hope after death."

[@Matthew24.4]

Ophelia McGraw - of course he died. Roman, Jewish and Greek historians like Josephus, Tacitus and Pliny the Younger (just to name a few) recorded it in the 1st century and they weren't Christians. There is not one professor from a credible university of ancient history, theology or biblical studies anywhere in the world that disputes that Jesus walked the earth and died. The 1st century historians also recorded that early Christians were tortured, persecuted and killed because they said that they saw Jesus after he rose from the dead. Why would someone allow themselves to killed when all that they had to say was 'I was only joking' - because they did see him rise from the dead of course! And you top it off by saying - "even if he did rise from the dead it doesn't prove that there is an afterlife" - the bible says that some people will never believe no matter how many miracles they see because their heart has been hardened and they don't want to know God and you are one of them. If he rose from the dead and said he was God chances are he is God - so when he says that there is an afterlife I'll believe him, period!

[@nonseans]

@jason5332 No. Christians hate Dawkins so much, because he appears to be quite nice guy with a peaceful appearance, instead of having a long tail, tridend and spliting around with ignited sulphur. It's hard to convince the flock that they should afraid of an older man.

[@JpAiMpEeSr]

way when the atoms inside of my skull happen for physical or chemical reasons to arrange them selfs into a certain way this gives me, as a by-product, the sensation I call thought. But if so, how can I trust my own thinking to be true? And if I cant trust my own thinking, I cant trust the argument leading to atheism, and therefore I have no reason to be an atheist. Unless I believe in God, I cant believe in thought, so I can never use thought to disbelieve God.

[@bushfingers]

Farvision, I think the fact that you and Matheraut provide such facile answers to the question of hope without God means that you have not thought deeply about this. (That is not to say that hope without God is not possible.) Also, perhaps I am wrong and you have. Your pithy responses her on the subject are in stark contrast to the thoughts of great thinkers like Sartre, Camus and Nietzsche. But maybe I'm just being absurd.

[@arktheball]

No he isnt because he gave his creation (us) the ability to do what we want. I.E. free will. He is no more responsible for the choices of a human being, than a parent is for their adult childs.

[@BGfromGB]

@kgouws If he created the universe then he must be all powerful. But what I understand from scriptures He even created Heaven where I believe there will be no pain or suffering. He gave us a free will and has put us to the test by provide us with a moral set of rules & principles. If we live within those parameters, which I have no problem with, then there is no reason why we will not be rewarded with alife without sin or Satan. Shouls one despise him for that? No I don't think so.

[@BGfromGB]

@kgouws Yes maybe....

[@Shytot-1]

Where ignorance is bliss religion thrives. Scientists who are religious were made religious before they became scientists.

[@MrCostiZz]

The unjustifiable blind suffering we see in the world is more evidence on the absent of God. The bible God very conveniently seems to has no intention to manifest in reality other to illiterate Jewess once upon a time. Christians apologetics is nothing more than excuses on absence of God like a mother will always think her son innocent no matter the evidence on the contrary. But in some point we must understand when you don't see nothing then is nothing there to see not name it invisible.

[@randomperson-gp8ph]

Why dont you respond to the arguments theologians have made for the last 2000 years on suffering. With regards to "manifest in reality" there continues to be miracles. What evidence would you accept?

[@smitty1647]

@@randomperson-gp8ph there are no miracles, just unsubstantiated claims. christians have nothing but stories and assertions, no evidence

[@Englishdosser86]

If a loving creator went through all that effort then it seems a waste to condemn billions of us to hell because he hasn't demonstrated beyond a doubt that he even exists. It is slightly odd that sending his Son over 2000 years ago in an obscure part of the middle East with shakey evidence is the best he could do.

[@onsenguy]

a creature powerful enough to create the laws of physics and galaxies wouldn't give a rats a** about us pathetic humans, and most certainly wouldn't care what we do while naked or what we choose to eat. obviously he didn't think much of us, considering he made us nearly identical to a chimpanzee. oh and to the evolution doubters--from comparative anatomy and dna all competent biologists worldwide would concur that we're roughly 98% chimp.

[@JpAiMpEeSr]

Darwinist philosopher Michael Ruse writes this, Why should a bunch of atoms have thinking ability? Why should I, even as I write now, be able to reflect on what I am doing and why should you even as you read now, be able to ponder my points, agreeing or disagreeing, with pleasure or pain, deciding to refute me or deciding that I am just not worth the effort? No one, certainly not the Darwinian as such, seems to have any answer to this.The point is that there is no scientific answer.

[@feylezofriza]

I don't know if there is lottery ticket in your pocket right now. I am therefore agnostic about its existence. But I still hope that you win the lottery, if there is a lottery ticket in your pocket. Me saying "God bless you, if there is one" is just like that. If there is an all powerful, all knowing, all good being, I hope it takes good care of your affairs. But I am afraid there is no evidence for such a belief. I hope this clarified the confusion. Have a nice day.

[@barendse1]

What is so obviously wrong with the naturalist worldview is their intellectual blindness. Of course God could make a world that operates by itself without needing His hand to move the sun or cause rain to fall from the sky. Of course, God could make the human body adapt to it's environments and heal itself without His constant intervention. Pointing out that nature can operate on it's own "without a God" is like saying "a car can run on it's own without the manufacturer constantly needing to intervene".

[@fred-z5k]

suffering is listening to your baloney you seem to know everything about god good for you professor

[@JpAiMpEeSr]

I'm an agnostic as far as the pink unicorns. I dont think you understand what I mean by God. I mean a unique, personal, plural, spiritual, eternally self-existent, transcendent, immanent, omniscient, immutable, holy, loving being, the creator and ruler of the entire universe and the judge of all mankind. The God I believe in is over and above all things, outside of time and space, completely distinct from the universe, and not to be confused with anything in it.

[@Jurassic56]

Like all weather they regulate temperature. That's why life exists on earth and not on other planets in the solar system, which are either too hot or too cold. Please, do some research and stop blaming God for everything that's wrong in life!

[@bernardvg]

If John Lennox is convinced he can put all his life and all his trust in life and that of others into the resurrection of Jesus, for which there is no other positive evidence than some ancient scribblings apparently, then you can't touch him. He does this wilfully and consciously, because you cannot definitely disprove his claim. Thus, he can go to church safely and not feel lonely.

[@nonseans]

@TYLERJB777 But you won't reveal a single of it, ofcourse...

[@neo02yavizim]

Balsamo para el alma

[@BGfromGB]

@kgouws asks why a god of power not use that power to protect the innocent? OK as I.m neither scholar nor psychoanalyst, I'll answer it the way I personally see it. If God does not use his powers to protect the innocent, then equally one might ask why God does not use his powers to stop perpetrators from harming innocent people? If he did use his powers as you ask, then we may well consider ourselves as being in paradise! No police, no crime, no prisons, no courts, just pure blissful paradise!!

[@bushfingers]

Hi polymath7. I did receive your email - thanks. I'll reply in the next few days. I think we will agree on more than you may now believe. But we shall have to see :-)

[@Mathenaut]

Hope in the usual sense? You mean it's not the feeling that what is wanted can be had or that events will turn out for the best? You mean to tell me that isn't possible without deferring to a god to beg at and worship? This was my claim to begin with. This is what farvision has expanded upon. Hope isn't something tangible that is given to you. It is idealistic. If that counts as ad hominem and begging the question (they don't), then...just lol.

[@3Duga]

@kgouws God did not create sin, sin originated from Lucifer's desire. Then again by Adam and Eve disobeying God's law. In both these cases sin originated from free will and desire. God allowed both the angel Lucifer and Adam & Eve to choose to either obey Him or not. God provided His son as a sacrifice because the wage of sin is too high for us to purchase. That's beyond being fair since no man deserves or can gain Gods grace.

[@Mathenaut]

"Farvision, I think the fact that you and Matheraut provide such facile answers to the question of hope without God means that you have not thought deeply about this" Facile? If you're disappointed than an explanation of hope outside of god doesn't exactly require much, well...sorry to say, but that should tell you something about the concept of hope with your god. It is not such a profound thing.

[@nonseans]

@TYLERJB777 "Christians don't hate people. If they do then they are posers." - If someones says: belive our faith or you will burn in hell for eternity, isn't it hatefull? Or this is just pretending? Or WHAT?

[@Mathenaut]

You know...I'll actually concede this point. Maybe you were just playing DA, maybe you actually believe the stuff...but yes, I jumped the gun as a consequence of the stance you are defending. I owe you an apology for that. I'll say this, though. Hope existed before christianity, and will exist after it is gone. Justice existed before christianity, and justice will continue to exist after it is gone.

[@Mathenaut]

What form of justice was meted out to Stalin? That is pretty ignorant to ask, given the assumed perspective of justice. This is because it isn't enough for him to have died, or for the country to have collapsed; you're wanting the 'burn forever in hellfire' response that you think is 'just' for someone you are using as a scapegoat to target ideals unrelated to his. This is also ignorant of the fact that Stalin is part of the reason why we aren't speaking german now.

[@BGfromGB]

@kgouws From the tone of your post I get the impression that you are trying to make God out as if he is some sort of normal human being just like you and me. I may be wrong, But if you want to hate God on the basis of human suffering he supposedly causes then I cant take issue with that. But then if you are atheist then you ought to hate nature for the misery it has caused us.

[@bushfingers]

Epicurus' thoughts are superficial here. "Atheists don't believe in justice?" Where exactly does he say this? To imply that he says this is dishonest and misleading.

[@Mathenaut]

"Clearly, you are implying that if I were not so weak (or stupid), then I'd be able to see that you are right and I am wrong. " You're reaching to find offense, and ignoring the point that people have hope and justice outside of your particular diety. Yet, how is this explained from your end? It's all just false?