Should We Blame God for Our Suffering? | John Lennox at Harvard Medical

John Lennox (Oxford) explores how Christianity deals with the challenges of disease and suffering. | Harvard Medical School, 10/3/2014 | View full forum at • The Loud Absence: Wher... | Explore more at www.veritas.org.
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[@PhillipLWilcher]

What would be the point of living without suffering, that we should know of Love!

[@canadiankewldude]

*_God Bless_*

[@KenAmmi-Shalom]

We can simplify things thusly: Either God didn't grant us free will and is therefore responsible for suffering by not allowing us to avoid suffering or God didn't grant us free will and is therefore responsible for suffering by allowing us to do things that cause suffering. Yet, on Atheism there's no premise upon which to condemn anyone of or for anything so Atheists discredit their flaccid condemnation of God. Also, on Atheism suffering refers to an accidentally existing bio-organism's subjective interpretation of accidental bio-sensory neural reactions occurring withing its haphazardly evolved brain.

[@crockmans1386]

Free will is BS. You cannot intelligently define : free will, love, justice, god, good+evil, etc , etc .... Those are discussion points of year 18oo.

[@maliciousmudkip3656]

The book of Job is the antithesis to the very Idea of Karma. I'm shocked that the young man referenced it without realizing the irony. Job's Friends insisted to him that he needed to repent of whatever evil he had done to deserve the suspected punishment he was experiencing. But Job knew better. He knew God intimately, and displayed long-suffering and perseverance in his continued love toward God, DESPITE the evil thrown at him.

[@tsftre1556]

the Provision God set in place is His Son Jesus Christ our LORD and Messiah!!!! amen

[@marie4585]

God = Love (as in the one and same thing by definition). When you say you love God you are saying I love all that is pure, holy, gentle, kind, beautiful, etc. One does not stop loving these things or believing in them just because ugliness exists. In fact you end up loving them even MORE! I know this from having cancer. My expression of my love of those qualities (which is the embodiment of God) during my illness is what ALLOWED ME to TRANSEND the pain. From a physical standpoint it was horrible!!! But from an emotional standpoint (strangely enough) I was "happier" (more peaceful and content) during the cancer than I ever had been before or since! I shudder to imagine how UNBEARABLE cancer would be for an atheist!!! Christianity offers hope and peace ---- atheism offers nothing. Choose peace.

[@michaelszczys8316]

One thing I leaned many many years ago was no matter what happens to me or how bad my life should get to NEVER BLAME God.

[@gknight4719]

Have you read Genesis ch 3 vs 16, god curst women with birthing pains? Go tell that to any woman, they would BLAME GOD FOR THAT.

[@michaelszczys8316]

@@gknight4719 after you do a totally wrong thing that changes the whole world and God is forewarning you as to how your life is going to be, You want to blame God for that?

[@gknight4719]

@@michaelszczys8316 OK did your god know that this earth that god made would have tsunamis and earthquakes, These happen mainly from the decay of uranium 238 which creates heat at 6,000c that melts the crust that have killed millions of humans and animals, do you think, god had no hand in that?

[@AM_o2000]

How solipsistic and morally reprehensible of you to prioritise the integrity of your unevidenced comfort story over being properly alert to the fact of many infants and young children around the world dying of leukaemia and diarrhoea, for instance. As Hitchens rightly said, 'religious people say and do the most disgusting things'.

[@michaelszczys8316]

@@AM_o2000 they get to go be with Him in heaven. Still can't BLAME God, He knows what He is doing.

[@niallwalshe4473]

“And they indeed went from the presence of the council, rejoicing that they were accounted worthy to suffer reproach for the name of Jesus.” [Acts of Apostles 5:41] “For an example of the just judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which also you suffer.” [2 Thessalonians 1:5] “For unto you it is given for Christ, not only to believe in him, but also to suffer for him” [Philippians 1:29] “Consider that I have set before thee this day life and good, and on the other hand death and evil:” [Deuteronomy 30:15] “14 Good things and evil, life and death, poverty and riches, are from God” [Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) 11:14] “15 Wisdom and discipline, and the knowledge of the law are with God”

[@brightbite]

Jesus told the man "sin no more lest something worse come," because this was pre-cross, pre-Grace. The cross changed everything. "By His stripes, *we ARE healed!*" Job also was living in the age before Grace. This world as it is now, with death and illness, is not what the original blue print was. And this world will not remain in this state in the future.

[@Shytot-1]

You do know that Jesus never wrote a word in the Bible, don't you? We don't know who wrote those words decades later but it most certainly was not Jesus.

[@roxannegopaul]

1 Peter 5:8 Be sober/alert and vigilant, the devil as a lion, walks around seeking whom he may devour. Ephesians 6:11-19 Put on the armor of God, for we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against powers and rulers of darkness ... (bad spirits). Repent and go to God and you will have the spirit of power (especially to persevere), love and sound mind/self control ❤

[@peter7624]

In Buddhism if sin is not punished in our present lifetime then we carry it to the next life, and have to live out that sin (bad kamma) in a future life, when we will not know what sin we have committed which has caused this illness or ill fortune. compare with The Bible which says the sins of the father will be visited upon the children to the 3rd or 4th generation.

[@paulswanson534]

Blame God? Or is it something that helps the individual learn? If life is more than this temporary time we are experiencing, perhaps we are here to learn lessons?

[@user-rv2zj8zu5b]

What’s the point of creating someone if they are just going to suffer either in this world or that to come?

[@browill9]

Praise God brother. Thanx for sharing this video. GBU

[@clarkelaidlaw1678]

7,000 gods proposed by humans over time in hundreds of different languages and in hundreds of different countries.there is not and never has been the slightest evidence that any of them are real.l

[@AM_o2000]

@@clarkelaidlaw1678What an amazing coincidence that out of all those thousands of gods, the god of the believer's time and culture just happens to be the right one. How fortunate the believer is to be born into the right time and culture!

[@petersmith9530]

No.Blame those responsible.

[@roxannegopaul]

Romans 5:1-9 True believers will endure. Exodus 12:13 (KJV) And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt...The Blood represents our belief and faith in Jesus Christ/ being Spiritually Reborn (reading his word and trying to live it), no longer living in flesh/worldly things but living/walking in the spirit by faith, when we practice this, God knows our true heart and intentions, he will not allow the (plagues) to destroy us.❤

[@jamesmaybury7452]

If you went to the doctor and all they asked about was the cause of your illness, genetic, environmental or behavioural, you wouldn’t be helped much. God, like doctors seem more interested in solutions, whether changing our behaviours to healthier ones, showing his love and power through miracles or teaching us often so we can help others in the future in similar situations.

[@oldterry9356]

See the book of Job 😊

[@stevenward3856]

When Adam and Eve sinned, that sin brought death into the world. Eventually, that brought not just death, but a plethora of struggles: the woman would experience pain in childbirth, and the man had to deal with the labours of planting, battling thorns and thistles, breaking rocky ground, etc. Because of sin Cain killed Abel, and Cain had to look over his shoulder in fear of retribution even though God guaranteed his safety. In the fallen world, man became so sinfully wicked l that God had to wipeout Mankind, with the exception of Noah's family and the animals of the Ark. Even after that, God had to confuse Man's language to make them spread across the earth, and prevent them from "making a name for themselves". Disease and suffering was a part of life. All due to sin! But, in our infirmities, God intervenes for His Glory with the miraculous. He also chastens whom He loved. He owes us no explanation, because He is God! He is Righteous! He is Sovereign! He does not have to answer to Mankind, and His ways are above our ways!

[@Shytot-1]

John Lennox seems to talk a lot but says very little, all he does is attack other people's positions but never ever defends his own. He tries to tell us why everyone else is wrong but he doesn't even begin to tell us why he is right.

[@tg2626]

Listen more closely…

[@Shytot-1]

@@tg2626 Me listen? you are the one who has been captured, he could say up was down and you would nod in agreement.

[@tg2626]

@@Shytot-1 Such anger, my friend. My point was that his answers are obviously short. The medium is manufactured to give you bits and pieces. To listen is to ‘hear’ his underlying assumptions and presumptions and then pursue more knowledge. That would mean digging deeper and investigating more widely. To listen.

[@michelswolf6804]

Na man.

[@georgejacob6378]

Why not consider all suffering and pain from desease as something simply going wrong in this enormously complex machine that is body....like any mechanism is likely to . Why bring god and jesusu crucifixion and resurrection into this. ..

[@mauricettescheyvaerts2349]

Yes Job Jérémie Ézéchiel.... what a dialogue to say you to God! Toi tu...

[@staceywebster7765]

No

[@UKS12345]

See book of Job

[@YeshuaisnotJesus]

Without lies god dies.

[@sreejithMU]

To die one has to born first.

[@catherinequake2621]

Ans: No, God cannot to be blame because we have free will. God allows it to happen but He does not make it happen. We made it happen.

[@sreejithMU]

Free will to what? What are you?

[@AM_o2000]

1) The freedom of the will is a moot point. That particular theodicy is therefore on shaky ground. 2) If I watch with indifference as my kids beat an elderly neighbour to death, I cannot be exonerated. The theists' claim that God is omnibenevolent doesn't hold water if God allows suffering.

[@Breckmin]

@@AM_o2000 2) you don't own your elderly neighbor. God owns everyone, however, God is NOT everyone's Father or parent. For most people God is their judge. You didn't set up a system of freewill interactions that you would use for two converging systems. There's so much wrong with the simplistic point you are making. 1) freewill is merely one ingredient in a comprehensive multifaceted theodicy with lots of other ingredients. Sin being a potential byproduct of freewill is what God is dealing with in this temporary creation.

[@Breckmin]

@@AM_o2000 as far as the opening comment here saying "we made it happen" and God is not to blame because we have freewill...etc. that's not a good answer either. Sometimes the simple answer is actually the wrong answer.

[@AM_o2000]

@@BreckminFirstly, on your response to my point 2, would you care to set out a case for why there is 'so much wrong with the simplistic point' I am making? At the moment you've produced a word salad. Secondly, on your response to my point 1, if God gave us free will and evil and suffering are necessary because otherwise we wouldn't have full freedom, then God is still not exonerated, for two reasons: 1) natural evils still exist (earthquakes, wildfires, volcanoes, disease, etc.), which the free will theodicy doesn't address; and 2) God could have created a world in which there is no suffering and no evil and yet still free will. How do I know this last point? Well, you would presumably say that there's free will in heaven and no suffering or evil there, so it _is_ possible.

[@KennethWilson-xq5uu]

We all are quick to blame GOD for every bad situation in our lives. Did we ever stop to think that the bad things that happen to us is the devil testing our faith of GOD?

[@sreejithMU]

Why should God let the devil to test our faith?

[@brightbite]

We are not in Job's day. We are in the Age of Grace.

[@AM_o2000]

If God allows the devil to introduce suffering into the world, God is not omnibenevolent. If I watch with indifference as my children beat an elderly neighbour to death, I cannot be exonerated morally just because I didn't throw the punches myself. It was within my power to stop it happening.

[@KennethWilson-xq5uu]

@@AM_o2000 why would you let your kids beat up an elderly person anyway?

[@KennethWilson-xq5uu]

@@AM_o2000 it is written in the Bible do unto others as you would have others do unto you

[@gknight4719]

And the 46,000 Turks that were killed in the earthquake last year god was teaching them a lesson??

[@marilynesteban9761]

Who is the author of life?

[@emdeepi]

No, because this guy doesn't know . When you go to court do they just say God is the reason we convicting you, no they need evidence. Which you don't have. Mathematics are absolute not speculation.

[@apophenic_]

If a god existed, yes. Of course. Absolutely we should blame it.

[@gknight4719]

YES, if the god of the bible was true, it certainly would be, an invisible mass slaughter!

[@garyt.8745]

If it did exist (which is totally improbable), then it is a weak, narcissistic, vindictive, and vengeful foolish being, with one of the frailest, brittle, egos to ever to have been conceptualised. It is truly hilarious how anyone could even consider such a being "god like".

[@gknight4719]

@@garyt.8745Well put, I think we made gods up firstly out of ignorance and fear, Then some bright spark turned it into a religion, to control humans and bleed money out of them, Religion is the best Ponzi scheme ever, and this would require a narcissistic/psychopathic god, to put the fear of HELLFIRE, if you do not fall in line.

[@marilynesteban9761]

​@@garyt.8745and from where did u get righteousness, justice and goodness? Just by urself? Or from monkeys?

[@Johnshaw111]

Is God all powerful or not? If he is, then suffering is his fault. He is allowing it. Why?

[@silenthero2795]

Because suffering in itself is not inherently bad/good. We hear time and again from motivational speeches that suffering can make us better or bitter people. Without any type of suffering we grow stale and complacent. You decide on how you take them so the choice still falls in you.

[@neilfletcher1841]

The g thing you reference is all mighty and powerful and takes all the glory for the good things? However lacks the ownership of all the suffering and natural disasters that endure in the world. I heard a real ground breaking argument for me - Jesus cured a blind person during his being but yet not able to cure blindness?

[@crockmans1386]

Nobody blames anybody for anything. Thats something you have to understand first. Then when you have a situation in which one guy says he designed n made it all.... well sure, whaddaya expect. He made an egotistic, greedy, not very intelligent man species .... so, yes its all his fault. He could have tried harder when making man.

[@martinrooney2806]

Why u bring it all on your selfs like me a sinner I pray God heals me me I got cancer but I like him to clean my mind

[@Stenlin1]

Quantum theory show that, Jesus was telling the truth according to your faith let it do to you !!!!

[@Shytot-1]

Of course you shouldn't blame god, it's never god's fault. You just carry on making excuses for god's failures and leave it at that, who ever heard of a god being bad at their job? It/he was obviously badly designed by the bronze age people who designed him, it might be a good idea to design a new one. It's only a suggestion. After all, he did destroy every living thing on the earth (except for a handful) and messed it up, he then sent his son and had him killed and that didn't work, yes it wouldn't hurt to have a new one, preferably one that could get things right first time.

[@jjevans1693]

We can't blame what doesn't exist.

[@erichetherington9314]

Of course! Gotta blame him for SOMETHING!

[@enquiringmind6082]

What about innocent children suffering and dying. That’s no Karma or Retribution. Is that Satan? More powerful than God then? Thanks 🙏

[@marilynesteban9761]

There is no one innocent and pure.. children as young as they are are sinful in nature, they lie, just like adults.. without teaching them to sin, they sin.. bcoz all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..

[@deguilhemcorinne418]

It is interesting to know that the Jewish tradition think that all humans are innocent of sin at their birth. Hereditary sin is an invention of christians.

[@AndreComtois]

Funny how athiests spend more time obessing about God than religious people.

[@sreejithMU]

Time is the problem for everyone, not God.

[@AM_o2000]

Baseless statement. I have a lie-in on Sunday mornings. My Christian friends head off to Church.

[@garyt.8745]

If you didn't keep inventing your ridiculous, invisible, friends, and insist on imposing them on us and our kids, then we atheists wouldn't have to bother continuously denying them, over and over, and over, again.

[@tomgreene1843]

They often do ...some of my best friends are atheists. Some have a certain discomfort about belief in God .

[@garyt.8745]

@tomgreene1843 .... in about the same way it is uncomfortable to have a best friend(s) who believe(s) they are Napoleon, or that the world is flat, or that constantly claims "the end is nigh". So basically it is the feeling of being uncomfortable around crazy people.

[@saltandvinegar4444]

If anyone has read the bible... God is literally the one that puts a curse on humans for eternity. So yes. God is to blame.

[@saltandvinegar4444]

@ascended1219 are we going to ignore that Genesis 3:16-19 exists?

[@saltandvinegar4444]

Literally: "through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life. It will produce thorns and thistles for you, and you will eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."

[@brightbite]

@@saltandvinegar4444 a consequence is not the same as a curse.

[@AM_o2000]

@@brightbite You're playing semantics to avoid an important point. If a supernatural entity forcing all of humankind to endure suffering for one transgression isn't tantamount to a curse, then I don't know what is, but even if we reject the word curse in favour of another noun, we can still be alert to your resort to euphemism to preserve the moral integrity of a morally indefensible god.

[@saltandvinegar4444]

@@brightbite not all consequences are a curse but a curse, in this context, is most definitely a consequence. So, logically speaking, it doesn't negate the fact that god cursed human kind.

[@marie4585]

THANK YOU FOR NO COMMERIALS . IT WOULD BE LIKE AN ASTEROID HITTING EARTH IN 30 SECONDS AND SOME BOZO SAYING WE SHOULD BUY HIS TOOTHPASTE. LIKE REALLY!!!!!

[@lukewagner8871]

Suffering is a part of the salvation process, it is how we are sanctified. 1 Peter 4:1-2,12-13 KJVS Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; [2] That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God. [12] Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: [13] But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. Suffering also goes hand-in-hand with being chastised by God, see the 12th chapter of the book Hebrews.

[@shuvampaik]

Dont give the credits to the God what you earn

[@AM_o2000]

This is solipsistic and morally reprehensible. A two-year-old dying of leukaemia has 'earned it', has she? As Hitchens rightly said, 'religious people say and do the most disgusting things'.

[@jmdq1]

Disagree

[@byteme9718]

Imagine, a grown man believing in a magical sky pixie. 🤣

[@garyt.8745]

Should we blame something that doesn't exist? Well, that's just dumb! Why not blame unicorns, or aliens? Whatever all y'all do, _don't_ blame bacteria, viruses, or parasites... _that_ would be just _totally crazy,_ right?

[@andrettanylund830]

I'm a Christian and I believe what you said causes illness. Not God. You're right

[@fergusonhr]

You poor soul

[@KennethWilson-xq5uu]

Just because you can't see GOD doesn't mean he don't exist. In star wars they had a thing called the force they couldn't see it but they believed in it. I will pray for you

[@garyt.8745]

@KennethWilson-xq5uu And you can _see god?_ Seek psychiatric assistance. You see aliens too? What is the difference, exactly? So Star Wars now counts as _evidence god exists?_ You do _know_ that it's also a work of fiction, right?

[@jamesbarringer2737]

We cannot see over 99.999% of the universe. We don’t even see 99.99% of what’s in eye-shot. We only see surfaces of some things. We simply take it on faith it is all there. Numbers are all over the place, but aggregated analysis tells us about 7% of the world population is made up of atheists and agnostics. The number of atheists in particular are large in countries associated with the former Soviet Union and other repressive modern regimes, where Atheism was/is a state imposed ideology. Atheism is also growing in the countries where it is easiest to disassociate oneself with natural life and to live emotionally and mentally within a digital culture that replaces reality- I.E. the developed world. Christianity does not deny the existence of gods other than God. Rather in the Christian faith (like in many branches of the Hindu faith) there is but one God who is creator of all, deserving of worship. In Christianity, unlike in Hinduism, only that one God has the right to our exclusive worship. Christians, believing people are made in God’s image, that makes sense. Images of the one all-encompassing God worshipping lesser gods - it does makes sense they should not worship these lesser gods. So we have about 3 1/2 % of the world population that believes no gods or God exists, 3 1/2% who don’t have a conviction one way or the other, and 93% who believe in a spiritual world. I don’t think it’s ever a sign of wisdom to dismiss 11 out of 12 people throughout the world as all being idiots.

[@drumrnva]

It's great to be the Christian god. You get total adulation, and you're credited with having all the power, but you don't have to face the indignity of accountability. Dictatorship 101. 😅

[@rutasa3182]

God gave humanity 10 commandments. When we learn to keep all 10 Commandments all of the time, then we can hold God to account. Until then we can only bring ourselves to account! God tells us and has shown us how to live. We rebel and tell Him that He has no right to. When things go wrong, WE BLAME GOD! You can't have it both ways.

[@thesecretplace1055]

Of course, since it would be unfair to accuse him of the destruction of his own creation when clearly he gives free will to his creatures which are required to act like his image to expand on tye paradise that is given to them, but they choose to create this, an Era of bloodshed and destruction. I really don't know how one can't get this when it's clearly stated.

[@drumrnva]

@@rutasa31821st: I don't want it both ways. The reality that I see makes WAY more sense if there's nobody in charge but us. 2nd: "God has shown us how to live"? God's solution to bad behavior is often to annihilate the offender, or make their lives a misery. Clearly any society that wants to last doesn't practice this type of authority. If you want godlike leaders, go to N Korea.

[@drumrnva]

@@thesecretplace1055 Sure, he gives " free will". Believers are "free" to totally surrender like slaves, or be eternally punished/annihilated. Seems to me the only thing the OT god really wants anyone to learn is that He holds the high card. Do a I say, because I say so. It's an abusive parent.

[@rutasa3182]

@@drumrnva No, no, no. God's solution to bad behaviour was to 'annihilate' Christ - who didn't commit a single sin - so that the offender who believes in Christ can be forgiven, saved from eternal death (separation from God) and have abundant life in this life and the next. Read the gospels. God is amazingly merciful, longsuffering and forgiving!

[@msmd3295]

“You are healed, sin no more.” That’s strong evidence that Jesus (being the son of god) didn’t understand the very basic nature of life in a material universe. Because it is impossible to not “sin” being made of atoms. The very Nature of material elements is to be Imperfect. So how can an imperfect (human) being not sin?

[@rutasa3182]

Read the new testament. It gives you a complete answer.

[@sreejithMU]

The only sin is your separate existence as an individual.

[@wierdpocket]

Your premise assumes we have some idea as to what “matter” is in an essential way, which we don’t. Matter is exotic and unpredictable and those on the bleeding edge of physics are quick to say we have no idea what it really is. The idea that “matter is imperfect” assumes you understand what matter is (no one does) and also what it’s end is. Consider Jesus’ material body after the resurrection: it is physical, but in a different mode. He can eat, but he can also move through things like doors and hide/reveal his person at will. Matter is only “imperfect” so far as it is dis-ordered, or more precisely, not ordered to God. When our bodies are ordered rightly, the matter is perfected. We see the fruits of this in the resurrected body of Christ.

[@AM_o2000]

You're stretching the definition of evidence.

[@msmd3295]

@@wierdpocket If you don't as yet understand matter might I suggest you get in a motorized vehicle and get on a nearby interstate, push the petal to the metal to 100 mph and direct that vehicle toward a 3 ft think cement wall and see what happens. I'm amazed someone wouldn't understand that "particles" of matter have physical properties, are guided by physical laws of nature and there existence can be proven with technical devices that measure them in structure, attraction, repulsion, etc. If you think that is all imaginary then have a nice ride. We may not COMPLETELY understand the basic definitive constituents below quarks are as yet. But if you think there is some "spiritual" foundation to matter then please point out the causal relationship between sprit and matter that you can "prove". It's insufficient to just make the claim, prove it.