Why some women hate feminism | Sarah Manavis on the Prospect Podcast

[@PlagelsGarden]

I like that people can only get radicalized when they disagree with you. I guess otherwise they are just… correct? 😂

[@subcitizen2012]

Radicalism is about eradicating opposition. Feminism is tolerant in that it can be empowering even for conservative traditional women. So why do conservatives traditionalists have such a holistically hostile radical stance against feminism? Could it be because explicitly misogynizes women, into roles of domestic subjugation and servitude? Consenting adults can do what they want in their free time, but when it comes to people trying to restructure universities, or domestic life, or stripping women of their autonomy, the conservative movement is 8 and a half times more broadly radical than feminism ever was or can be. Is feminism immune from criticism and critique? Of course not, there's a lot of maladjusted feminists out there, so why does radical anti feminism get a free pass when it is explicitly extreme in all of its motives and goals to eradicate feminism and political liberalism?

[@PlagelsGarden]

@ the question as always is who is doing the defining and labeling and what are their priors, biases, and blind spots. People are being grouped together that barely overlap in their beliefs by people who are obviously ignorant or biased in order to forward some self severing agenda. Edit: my mistake I thought this was a different thread, some of this response does not apply to this conversation. Some of it is still valid. I’ll leave it here and take the L though 🙃

[@parker9012]

If you want a feminist lifestyle then you'll support policies that enable a feminist lifestyle, if you want a traditional lifestyle then you'll support policies that enable that lifestyle. Do you want a free love style of living, or do you want a husband/wife and children. No wrong answers, it's just men and women voting their personal preferences.

[@subcitizen2012]

Except when it isn't. The broader conservative movement wants to dominate women, feminism, and the politics of liberty and equality. Yes, women can stay at home and raise kids and bake cookies for their husbands, they are free to do that (in part thanks to feminism!) but being team feminism and pro-womens's freedom to become tradwife, isn't the same thing as being anti feminism and tradwife because feminism is female independence is wrong and bad for society, and you're electing politicians that will use the state to control women's life's and women's movements. Yes, a lot of these people are innocent and swept up in a movement that doesn't really matter that much, but what if that's the danger? It's alluring, seductive, and dishonest, plus it successfully depoliticizes its very political qualities. Now you have a wave of young people that think their politics of baking cookies is under attack because they've successfully posed as victims of people that want to be free from having to bake cookies and produce children.

[@nikolai7861]

For a while, when Ellen announces "deputy editor", I thought she was saying, that pretty editor.

[@mollyrosebranch]

the part about tradwife influencers reminded me of pastel qanon.

[@williamoarlock8634]

The feminist movement over the past century has been bourgeois and careerist which excludes the vast majority of women.

[@subcitizen2012]

That's why you also want to listen to social and ethnic feminists instead of just upper class white women, not just reject feminism outright. It's a broad enough movement that there's more to it than bourgeois liberalism.

[@nahuelrecabarren6695]

Women should be able to choose any lifestyle they want. This talk of radicalization because they may adopt a "traditional" one is an exaggeration.

[@chrisa5631]

We have a collective responsibility for the society we all live in. Depending on immigration to fix your problems isn’t a bulletproof solution for the future.

[@subcitizen2012]

Women choosing any lifestyle they want is feminism. Trad wife's aren't feminists in so far that if they were, they generally wouldn't subjugate themselves not only in that lifestyle, nor more broadly in their expanded politics. Opposing feminism, to the radical extreme of trying to politically eradicate it, along with legal and social rights for women, and any other lifestyle that is not conservative tradwifing, is radical and extreme anti-feminism. One doesn't have to conform to feminism or anything that isn't a conservative traditional life; the issue tends to come along when the conservative traditional life is generally so inherently fatally hostile not only to feminism and broader related politics, but also to women and women that adopt anything remotely feminist (if tradwife lifestyle was truly feminist, conservatives would reject it). Ultra conservatism and its spectrum of related ideologies want to use the state to dictate social norms, it's a radical extreme authoritarianism both in politics and in social norms. By contrast, everyone who's woke: women, Lgbtq, minorities, immigrants, we want to be left alone. If tradwives and conservatives were so tolerant to leave others alone, maybe they'd having nothing to worry about over people trying to get them and take their equal human rights away. The same can't be said for the woke. We can't rely on the decency of most people or the people they elect to inform their personal lifestyle decisions, and radically extreme authoritarianism trying to dictate the personal and public lives of others.

[@domino_dadmp1240]

Dressing beautifully but modestly because men like that too is part of 'misogyny'??? Your arguments are beyond flawed, they are parody!

[@Gumblethebear]

That's like a bunch of hoes swearing off casual sex and abortions to "STICK IT" to conservative men. Ok........ good job

[@subcitizen2012]

If it's a form of subjugation of women to men, then yes, it's a sound argument perfectly in line with feminism. Nothing wrong with it at all. What's wrong with you, why are you incorrect? Are you incorrect about other simple assumptions? Whether if you were wrong about everything? Have you ever stopped to think about that?

[@malhenning1608]

so you are critical of a woman in her mid to late 20's on her own merits fighting her way up to be Queen of the manosphere as Hannah has done? Welcome to politics. Any time you elect a politician of any worth you loose your control of them the minute they take power

[@4362mont]

I am not calling election fraud, but the apparent turn-out of the presidential race *is the outlier* that does not objectively make sense in the context of the rest of the process, the issues, and the turnout, etc. At this point I see little sense in trying to make it 'fit' with other observed facts.

[@subcitizen2012]

No it makes sense. They were less than 3 million votes apart, and as of the latest counts, Harris was only down about 6 million from 2020. When at the margins and every vote counts, then it's the issues themselves that matter. What were some issues 6 million people might have had with Harris? What were the parts of the voting blocks that weren't effectively defended by the campaign?

[@rjflores438]

Why is it always posh English upper middle class women like this that tend to be the spokespeople for feminism. Privelige in this country has always been about the socio economic class you came from anyway. If women want to be traditional Conservative wives, its up to them.

[@subcitizen2012]

Why's no one telling these conservative traditionalists to leave women and feminists alone? When these people in these counter movements elect politicians that seek to subjugate women and eradicate political opposition by the apparatus of the state, they're so innocent anymore. If you want to be tolerated, you have to be tolerant. Chants of "your body my choice" happening today in school corridors, means there's a lot more going on than just traditional 1950s lifestyle wives innocently making meals for their husbands.

[@4362mont]

Actual family and other recorded history tells me that the woman who was a queen in her own home, with no duties besides children, church, household nanagement, being a gracious hostess with some accomplishments suiable for a lady, and sitting on a cushion and sewing a fine seam was allowed by her provider to hire at least one & usually several other women and girls who worked long hours as cooks, maids, laundresses, seamstresses, etc. with many fewer chances for marriage, children, family home ownership, or ever being able not to go out to work. (With variations on the latter above to fit generational circumstances.) Must be lucrative & also fun for some to cosplay a version of this, though.

[@rv706]

Well, feminism should not be about preventing women from living that lifestyle: it should be about allowing them to have the possibility (other things being equal, such as personal talent etc) to _choose_ which lifestyle to live and not being constrained by artificial systemic constraints.

[@4362mont]

@rv706 Correct. My personal take on the subject of trad-wife cosplay on video for kicks & clicks does include both 'go for it' and 'who watches this shtuff?!', as I ponder that time spent watching is not any part of the tradition being held up for reverence.

[@Oysters176]

@@4362mont I don't buy the 'free choice' argument but besides that, the past has happened, we aren't in that era anymore, we are in this era, what has come to pass has happened. Just, what can we take from the past, and what can we try to get rid of in this era.

[@narkelnaru2710]

24:55 .... that would be Jesse Watters.

[@mist7295]

what a long winded way of saying nothing

[@subcitizen2012]

That's because men tend to not listen to women. This is why feminism matters and why men should listen to women. Because it won't make sense until it does. Keep working on yourself to make yourself a better person and human being so that the world can be a better place.

[@mrharry448]

What works for likes and is monetised distorts all kinds of material on the internet. People love Hallmark movies bit at the moment there does not appear to be a suggestion that they are deliberately manipulative, just a weird and successful popcorn genre like cat videos. I may personally loathe trad-wife product but until you show evidence that it is being scripted and financed by others than the video-makers, it is just another bizarre 'winner' in the algorithm lottery that makes me die a little inside.

[@subcitizen2012]

This is part of the paradox of today. People can get swept up entirely into Nazi and fascist ideology and not even know it thanks to the algorithms. They are t being racial supremacists, they're just being cultural supremacists, this bigotry is perfectly okay and acceptable, in fact it's even good, so long as it blurs the lines of definition by just a little bit, it doesn't matter. There's nothing wrong with being a trade wife in and off itself. There's nothing wrong with wanting a little less immigration in and off itself. But suddenly the tiktok channel about making cookies isn't just about baking cookies, it's about baking cookies for your husband because this is their agreed upon social roles; and there's nothing wrong with THAT either in and off itself. The problem comes in with the politics thereof that overlap with a lot of this. It's a bit like a gateway drug. It's apparent defensibility and innocence, she's just baking cookies because she loves her husband! But when the goals of the political movements are to make these roles the only acceptable social norms again; when this movement elecrs politicians and actively stands for the subjugation of women, feminists, and liberated politics thereof, it's not just about baking cookies and not so innocent.

[@dr.softie7501]

Your points are valid, however, 10 minutes in and seeing how the issue of race was excluded is insane to me. And disingenuous -Speaking for many Black women who voted for Kamala...talk about it. It matters. It was a deciding factor for many voters.

[@Gumblethebear]

Can we please stop including race in everything? Act like a person, not a black person. Expect to be a treated as a PERSON, not your skin color. You are perpetuating the racism you say you hate so much but can't seem to stop engaging in.

[@ricksflicks-]

Sigh. It's really all you have isn't it? Racial grievance and obsession. You know why they didn't bring up race? Because it doesn't matter. The only people who voted for Kamala Because she is a black woman are other black women. The rest of us had about 600 more important factors than her race to consider.

[@pbrown0829]

Sure it was that’s why they did vote Obama twice and for Kamala as VP in 2020…oooo wait. They did. Maybe it wasn’t about race or gender but the fact she is a horrible candidate and the dems didn’t do enough. But keeping making race the point and keep losing elections.