Sexless marriage: a breach of contract

[@psychacks]

Sexless marriage is a depressingly common phenomenon and not one that is well understood. My take is fairly unconventional, namely: refusing to have sex in an exclusive, monogamous relationship by unilateral decision is a form of cheating. This is because the “mono” in “monogamy” mean “one.” So cheating in monogamous relationships occurs when someone isn't having sex with one person - and fewer than one person is as much not one person as more than one person is. In this episode, I unpack some of the consequences of this understanding. Buy my book, "The Value of Others" Ebook: amzn.to/460uGrA Audiobook: amzn.to/3YfFwbx Paperback: amzn.to/3xQuIFK Book a paid consultation: oriontarabanpsyd.com/consultations Subscribe to my newsletter: oriontarabanpsyd.com Social Media TikTok: www.tiktok.com/@oriontaraban Facebook: facebook.com/profile.php?id=100090053889622 LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/orion-taraban-070b45168/ Instagram: instagram.com/psyc.hacks Twitter: twitter.com/oriontaraban Website: oriontarabanpsyd.com Orion's Theme: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jaO7c62HZ613e7M Thinking of going to grad school? Check out STELLAR, my top-rated GRE self-study program based on the world's only empirically-validated test prep system. Use the code "PSYCH" for 10% off all membership plans: stellargre.com. Become a Stellar affiliate and earn a 10% commission for every membership purchased by a new student you conduct into the program: stellargre.tapfiliate.com. GRE Bites: www.youtube.com/@grebites4993 Become a Psychonaut and join PsycHack's member community: kzbin.info/door/SduXBjCHkLoo_y9ss2xzXwjoin Sound mixing/editing by: valntinomusic.com Presented by Orion Taraban, Psy.D. PsycHacks provides viewers with a brief, thought-provoking video several days a week on a variety of psychological topics, inspired by his clinical practice. The intention is for the core idea contained within each video to inspire viewers to see something about themselves or their world in a slightly different light. The ultimate mission of the channel is to reduce the amount of unnecessary suffering in the world. #psychology #marriage #relationship

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@psychacks it's once again ironically not that unconventional if you go back far enough. God considers it infidelity and permits the believer to divorce for prolonged abstinence

[@pmarreck]

@@psychacks what do you think of a competition-based theory of sexual motivation? basically, part of the reason the sexual tension dies down at least for some is *because* the security was achieved, so the way to reactivate it might be to expose each other to more interactions with the opposite sex and accepting the risk of straying, which might have an "afterburner" effect as the partners reclaim each other intimately

[@matthewolson8875]

I would take this concept a bit further. #1, When it comes to sx, I would argue that most men enter into marriage looking for a "sure thing" because either a) they've played the field and are tired of not having a sure thing or b) they haven't been able to play the field for a myriad of reasons and why bother when the deck is stacked against them anyway therefore why not have a sure thing where they don't have to learn how to play the game? If most men knew that sx in marriage wasn't going to be a "sure thing", I think they would certainly opt out of marriage entirely because the sx part of the marital contract tends to be the most motivational factor (for men) to be married. Now with the advent of the internet, the fact that marriage isn't a sure thing is becoming more mainstream and we are seeing more men opting out of government sanctioned relationships. #2 lifestyle isn't a marital obligation, sx is. but the truth is deeper. being owed sx really isn't all its cracked up to be. being desired is. I would argue that most men never get there and settle for owed in marriage vs desired. If most men knew what they were doing by relegating themselves to having a wife that is either "owing" them through marital contract or worse, making out that sx is her sacrifice to gain the lifestyle that she wants, they wouldn't get married in the first place. Being desired is so much better.

[@Bills2Fly4U]

Orion, you're da GOAT 🐐 🙌🏽!!💯. Fun Fact. You've got the same Birthday as my fiancée. Yall Birthday 9 days away. So I've been watching you're videos since about December of 2022. I decided to go against my better judgment & put my girl onto your videos back in June of last year & ooh boy did she hate u 😂. But I've got an enate natural gift of game charisma, intellect, power, & control of our relationship so I've been able to change her view of u. She's toughened up & accepts your blunt & honest view

[@malrofo]

Omg I've been saying this for years. Can't have monogamy without the gamy

[@moshehaleph1351]

Great video. I wholeheartedly agree. I've always said that when a wife refuses to have sex with her husband it is essentially a quiet divorce.

[@andrewmackenzie325]

Great term “quiet divorce”.

[@pmarreck]

great parallel to “quiet quitting”

[@nadahere]

A defacto divorce.

[@Quadster19]

Then my divorce began the day I got married.

[@fnffnchfhc154]

It starts way before that, not because a woman all of a sudden decides that she does not want to have sex with her man anymore. It starts when the partners start to drift apartwhichthey are both responsible for. People need to quit their victim mentality (both men and women) and start taking accountability for their own part in the relationship

[@Sajidov3]

A good way to explain this to someone is to take any other aspect of the relationship and have them imagine a husband telling his wife that she can only partake in that aspect with him while he simultaneously denies it to her for years on end. An example is a husband who tells his wife she can ONLY go to him for emotional support, not friends, family, etc., while the husband completely ignores her and denies her any emotional support. Or where the husband says the wife can only do social things with him, and then he loses all interest in anything social and thus prevents her from socializing with other adults in any context. This would rightfully be thought of as abusive.

[@smartass0124]

I think Martial RP or provision vaws should be between the couple vaws shouldn't be standardized

[@DBTwister]

It is the same as the husband saying I am the only person allowed to feed you. Then starves her. When she is still alive 2 years later - he gets shocked to find out that she has been eating at work.

[@XTheSpartanX7]

@@DBTwister LMAO, I nearly spit out my water. This is hilarious!!

[@0biwan7]

@@DBTwister except exclusive feeding isnt part of the marriage vows. exclusive intimacy is. one could argue that as terrible as this might sound, it has been part of the definition of marriage for thousands of years, and the man knows what he's getting into before he signs up for marriage and if he doesn't like it, he should have thought about that before he got married.

[@melkerner]

Women NEVER allow that comparison - citing the unfairness of it - the old "You don't NEED sex" argument. I responded that "you don't need emotional closeness either"

[@bryangregory48]

Imagine if a guy just said “sorry honey, I just don’t want to work anymore. And I don’t want to do any of the house work either. You should love me for who I am”. That’s the exact equivalent of

[@LisaCulton]

There's a lot of men doing that already.

[@flazjsg]

@@LisaCulton Women need to make better choices. So do men.

[@ForceAlfaF1]

@@LisaCulton It's about damned time!

[@csmith9699]

@bryangregory48 Your comment assumes women don't work outside the home which most do

[@bryangregory48]

@@csmith9699 no it doesn’t. That’s just your projection.

[@jcnlaw]

As an experienced divorce lawyer (Pennsylvania and New Jersey), I can tell you that most of my divorce clients are in a sexless, loveless, “affectionless” marriage. They are nothing more than roommates who don’t even like or respect each other. No two cases are exactly alike, however the lack of physical intimacy is common. Sometimes it is many years since the parties just enjoyed each other’s company or touched each other in a caring manner. If anyone thinks that marriage is a guarantee to kindness and physical intimacy, you may be in for a rude awakening. The problem is that for many people, the exit costs of a bad marriage are exceedingly high, especially if there are minor children involved or if one spouse significantly outearns the other spouse. There are no easy answers other than to not get married. You can still have amazing intimate relationships without bringing state (divorce) laws into your life and finances.

[@gerhardvanderpoll7378]

Yep....if you want yo go on a trip just by a ticket to ride....you don't have to own the entire railway system....with all the accompanying endless maintenance programs and costs......😛😎👉🚂🚃

[@nunyabidness3075]

This is the reality. So many people grew up watching the adults around get divorced and it not improve their lives. My wife gave her first husband every chance to deal with his mental problems and drinking. She knew divorce rarely improves anyone’s life from experience. All my aunts and uncles had divorces and few became happy or had better relationships. So, pretty few of my cousins got married and almost none of my cousins have gotten divorced.

[@pmarreck]

domestic partnerships exist for straight people too, and aren’t as costly to leave (no offense lol)

[@anjunatuna]

So many divorce lawyers are discouraging the convention of marriage in 2024. And yet it is still such a huge industry. I think people still have it in their heads they NEED to get married as a social contruct, for social media, to keep up with the joneses, etc. But I accepted a long time ago I do not want to get married and it is incredibly liberating, even if people think I'm crazy.

[@jcnlaw]

@@anjunatuna Great comment. Don’t worry about what others think. Do what is best for you!

[@Mattjohnson5192]

And when they do sleep with you they make it feel like it's a chore.

[@BasementBerean]

I'd intuitively guess that this is way more common. It's awful too, and in a way worse.

[@marcuschauvin7039]

that's my marriage!

[@Macheako]

That’s when you gotta learn how to match their pettiness tho 😂❤ Aye if I’m starving….ill eat table scraps lol and so would you 🍖

[@BasementBerean]

@@marcuschauvin7039 It was some of mine, thankfully not all, but we got counseling that helped.

[@shedparker]

My ex-wife would get hers then mid-stroke shout, “Ugh, hurry up!”🤣. I’ll never marry again.

[@DTheExpert]

Sex is the only thing that separates a couple from being merely roommates.

[@testthewest123]

Not sure about that, given how many suppsedly "roommates" had sex.

[@bearclaw5115]

I used to tell that to my ex. Obviously didn't work despite being totally true!

[@Quadster19]

Well yeah. And I would take my best friend or my dad over a platonic female roommate any day.

[@MrBoxofplastic]

This is too simplistic. There's also co-parenting, financial partnership, and emotional support to consider. I was married 16 years and we became mostly non romantic.

[@teresamagnusson]

Actually, emotional intimacy is what separates a couple from being roommates. Because without emotional intimacy, we won't have scx.

[@SomeGuy-xf9bc]

What is truly disgusting is that women are fully capable of willingly marrying someone they have no intention of ever having sex with again. They are extraordinarily pragmatic about their decision to marry and love frequently has nothing to do with the calculus. It's good to see more content creators calling out this behavior as the breach of contract that it is.

[@ktbernetes]

I feel ya, but I think it goes too far by ascribing intent to it. It's no more intentional on the woman's part than it is the man's. They didn't go in with a sinister plan, recognizing the reality of what is a possibility or probability of a future reality doesn't make someone the villain. I think we also have to realize that this isn't a picnic for the woman either. I'm sure she'd love it if she could still want him with the same passion and enthusiasm as when they were dating. She doesn't like the fact the interest dried up, but just like us she is facing a reality that's unpleasant. I'm not saying she bears no responsibility, but I think there are exactly ZERO women who get married saying "ah yes, now I can achieve my dream of having no sex and a roommate I can't get rid of when the lease is up!"

[@Quadster19]

I had a friend tell us he married a woman because he believed she would be a good mother and give birth to healthy children. Other men thought he was awful for using a woman just for her womb. From what I can tell he was simply as pragmatic as the average female.

[@SomeGuy-xf9bc]

@@ktbernetes The consequence of hypergamy being squeezed into a monogamous society is that way more women end up settling than don't. Those women are often resentful of the fact, but their decision is quit conscious. They come up with their own unannounced terms for how the marriage is really going to go, all the while saying what needs to be said for public consumption. All women? Certainly not. Enough that the average man has a great deal to worry about? Absolutely.

[@perpetualprocrastinator]

@@SomeGuy-xf9bc But all women have to potential to turn out like this ,hence all women are risks.

[@anjunatuna]

I mean, if you're a rich older man marrying a hot younger woman, don't expect her to be attracted to you forever when she can get it from hotter guys her age. The problem is also men marrying out of their league, letting themselves go, and expecting women to still be into them. If sex is important, get counseling, or call it quits. These things should be discussed early on in dating though. Put it in your prenup!!

[@marriagecausesdivorce7540]

The problem with this video is that it can only be understood by reasonable and logical people. The other 50% of the population will have a meltdown if they have to take accountability for their failures. I expect plenty of shaming and disingenuous comments if this video goes viral.

[@leoborros]

Thats why this half of the population shouldnt be able to vote

[@mudblood9699]

The issue is generally, casually or in a committed relationship, the woman in question has had sex with a man/men who she found substantially more sexually attractive than her current man. Therefore, it's impossible for her to feel the same degree of sexual attraction and respect, respectively, for her current man, assuming the current man can't close that sexual attraction gap. In such scenarios, the men should simply leave the relationship.

[@robertfindley921]

Yep. Women see men's seggs drive as a character flaw. I've known several decent guys that went years, then she filed for divorce and immediately jumped into bed with another guy as if it was her favorite thing to do.

[@whatsupbudbud]

Some of it is logical while the part regarding Orion not understanding why cheating in the conventional sense of the word is grounds for the termination of the relationship is absurd. I have never had issues being loyal physically. I would note that men generally have issues "not looking at other women" which is frowned upon in our society but not cheating per se but I digress.

[@Kenny-Ross]

We know it's inevitable. Accountability to the other 50% is their kryptonite.

[@gregorylatta8159]

I would say a man has a right to end a relationship for no sex. I agree it is a form of cheating. You don't have to leave but you can. This is always the case in reality.

[@smartass0124]

No fault divorce

[@cosmictreason2242]

Matthew 19 says that sexual immorality is a justification for divorce 1 Corinthians 7 says that withholding is sexual immorality and forbidden

[@guillaumebersac7287]

There's no need for a reason to stop a relationship, nothing but the fact that you don't want it anymore.

[@JohnSmith-ti2kp]

@@cosmictreason2242 Yeah, if you say it enough times maybe someone will believe you.

[@catherineball7584]

​@cosmictreason2242 for both parties. Men seem to think only women withhold. Men do too.

[@Khan-rz8qi]

Sex in a marriage is something as a man you really can’t argue. Speak to your wife about on it and she’ll desire you less, bring other people into it and they’ll likely tell you as a husband you’re just not “evolved” enough, or you’re being “domineering”. And truthfully, you can’t force her. It’s sad but my only advice to you fellas is to stop giving women exclusive monopoly over your sex lives through means of marriage. You can’t control women or what they do, but you sure can avoid putting yourself in such situations.

[@tspice11]

@@Khan-rz8qi definitely the best approach for the modern man

[@main_stream_media_is_a_joke]

Both the people involved should crave each other physically.....with time the mad lust will slowly fade.....but it should not disappear. If both keep themselves in good shape....the probability of a happy, content and in turn successful relationship is high. All too often the couple just stops caring if they even appear attractive to the other......and then it's either just going through the motions of marriage or divorce.

[@mehmedii7594]

Used to to tell my lady, "Are we having sex or am I having sex?" And no, not forcing myself, just that I'd go elsehwere to meet my needs.

[@doyourbest7655]

Complicated. She denies you and marriage makes it socially un-acceptable to get it elsewhere. You are trapped. Worse yet after divorce you are her slave. Meaning your income goes to her address which is not yours. Best advice face the inevitable. Clear financial obligations that will tie you down and chase you after divorce. Get rid of physical assets that will hold you back. Get a cash fund somewhere for your needs. Get fit, get healthy, get social. Change to a low demand job that allows flexibility. Do this job change on the quiet. Maintaining family cash flow by selling assets if necessary. Maintain the home relationship while you prepare to exit. See a male therapist to discuss your concerns about a friend that is contemplating a divorce and where the pieces fall and how he might be hurt by her or the use of current laws to beat him down and destroy his life. Do nice things for her. Have a party that includes her friends. See a financial counselor who handles asset division and responsibility cash flow for divorce attorneys for the financial aspect of how you will get screwed. Understand your rights. If it comes to a divorce get it over quickly. Do not try to work at the same time this is happening. Tell her marriage without sex does not work. Maybe she will wake up. But be prepared. “No, I don’t have to” is a shot across your bow that you will get nothing and like it. Visit that male therapist again about your friend’s wife problem. Discuss how the conversation might go.

[@theBear89451]

The most common scenario is a man talks to his wife who respond that she needs more flowers, date nights, so the man does these things. This is a fool’s errand. Women don’t know themselves. Instead, the best course of action is to stop being romantic, no flowers, no dates, … Treat your wife like a roommate. Go out with your friends. This will make your wife anxious, because you are avoidant.

[@SirShiv7]

A man's obligations in marriage are enforced by society AND the law. A woman's obligations in marriage are considered a bonus by society and the law.

[@perpetualprocrastinator]

Men still have 100% responsibility but 0% authority. Only simps and hopeless optimists jump into relationships.

[@abucci92]

Damn straight, brother.

[@wardeggerrobertmarius144]

👍🥳

[@itsme-sq5rd]

Men should do something about it.

[@SirShiv7]

@@itsme-sq5rd They have been. They're refusing to marry in numbers we've never seen before.

[@danieltanner5804]

One of the things that helped me wrap my mind around this, which ultimately helped me to leave my abusive ex wife, was when I read a comment from a man online saying “men don’t get married to be celibate”

[@doates625]

If you want the privilege of a monopoly on meeting someone's need, you must accept the responsibility of satisfying 100% of that need.

[@rayzerot]

This!

[@alexandrasolomenko4085]

@@doates625 it works both way right ?

[@ktbernetes]

I think that's 100% true. But I also think that even if they said "okay, we don't need to be monogamous" it's not exactly a fix until OTHER women also feel that way as well. Men, as a rule, aren't awash in options to sleep with women who don't want anything else from that man as part of the package. Go see how your Bumble profile does if you post that you're married but your wife is cool with you being on here. Your average man still gets very little response as it is, and if you now eliminate all women who are seeking the safety, security, and provision of a committed monogamous LTR, you're going to be really short on options to pursue...but your wife posts the exact same thing and the number of responses probably goes UP since why else would this lady be on here when she's married unless she's 100% DTF, right !?! Just deciding between you to toss monogamy won't fix a lot if other women still value it.

[@0biwan7]

that's not how the law works

[@mountainof7]

That's like communism- only works on paper

[@melkerner]

It is devastating to the very foundation of your relationship. The withholder simply refuses to see the damage they are inflicting upon their relationship and their partner. My experience is that women still expect Monogamy, even when they refuse to touch you for years or decades. Forced celibacy, (essentially servitude) unless you simply agree to the terms to avoid bankruptcy, OR - go outside the marriage for the physical intimacy, sex and connection you need. 15 years isn't an "Ebb and flow" - It's a choice.

[@Korschtal]

"My experience is that women still expect Monogamy" This confuses me. I can't force my wife to be intimate, for the very good reason it's her body, therefore her choice. If my wife also demands monogamy, then she's demanding the right to control my body too, without my consent. This is s*xual ab*se in any other context.

[@Whoa_wyd]

Very true

[@melkerner]

@@Korschtal Correct. And that's the whole point - the Withholder doesn't think about the abuse they are inflicting upon their partner.

[@rayzerot]

"We need to figure that this out because I agreed to monogamy, not celibacy"

[@markberger5739]

​​@@melkernerNo, they enjoy it - Power is the ultimate drug😢

[@michaelcushing3526]

My wife's sister cut her husband off about 30 years ago, because she felt he was less successful than she'd expected. They had 3 minor children at that time. I told my wife he would stay married, but get a girlfriend. She insisted he would never do that. My wife and her sister recently discovered that I was right. They're horrified that he didn't accept a sexless marriage. I laughed and reminded my wife that I'd told her so.

[@LifeLikeSage]

It doesn't even seem to cross their minds that men have needs and enter a relationship for other reasons then their own.

[@Thinker1985]

​​@@LifeLikeSageSometimes it feels we are just robots to them. One that is supposed to be self-maintaining.

[@LifeLikeSage]

@@Thinker1985 This is the cruelty of nature.

[@Sarcastro_78]

I saw the affectionless and sexless portion of a failed marriage as a form of abuse as well. Affection of any kind was literally withheld for over a year and after then was parsed out sparingly. It was abuse to reject a hug, a kiss, hand holding. Not just a rejection but a form of abuse. I walked away and lit truly was better to be alone than to be abused.

[@DNA350ppm]

You were 100% morally entitled to a divorce. Actually, morally your wife should have filed for divorce, as she obviously had fallen out of love. There are unfair people of both sexes. Not always does the one who causes the divorce also file for it, but from some croocked reason leave it to the one still loving one to do it. I wish you all the best, but never marry for money and sex.

[@LifeLikeSage]

The greater abuse of the society at large is that society punishes the man and rewards the women if the men leaves this kind of abusive relationship.

[@amandajofisk85]

The relationship is over when one of them doesn’t want sex. Why do they waste 5-10 years hanging around!

[@d3ltaking419]

I asked this very same question to a buddy of mine who is on his second marriage. His wife is clearly cheating on him and yet he still wastes his time trying to catch her in the act. I told him you’re wasting your time because that isn’t going to happen.

[@themick6586]

Because the man knows he will get divorce raped, and lose his childern if he tries to get out.

[@therocknrollcook]

It happens to wives too 😢😢😢😢

[@BasementBerean]

Well, because they might have children who will be very adversely impacted by a divorce. They might not each want to pay $300/hr for attorneys to divide whatever is leftover after paying the attorneys. One or both might not be economically viable on their own. Sexless marriage is awful, but marriage is a legal contract, and it's not something you just quit hanging around, sex or not.

[@JAYD1476]

@@amandajofisk85 so you marry for sex mostly?Yikes

[@MichaelEdwardWright1]

Divorce women for this. I thought I married a good traditional wife. After 15 years married she started locking me out. I did not get it elsewhere because then I would be as bad as her. After 10 more years of this, she divorced me and I ended up with 1/8th of our net worth typical in the womanist female supremacist family court.

[@nunyabidness3075]

How the heck did you end up with 1/8th?

[@gerhardvanderpoll7378]

He who can control his dick is in control of his life....he who can't control his dick is lost,also to himself....

[@Quadster19]

My advice is don't be such an idealist. I would rather cheat in his scenario then reach 60 and wish I had.

[@0biwan7]

@@nunyabidness3075 if you calculate the net present value of future support payments as a current liability (almost like a student loan or a mortgage or car payments), a man can often wind up with a net worth less then zero.

[@M0viLover]

@@nunyabidness3075 Child support; alimony; 50% share of the house's equity; 401 (k) Plan; etc.

[@DarylSimpson58]

A perfect marriage or relationship is an illusion; there's no universal playbook for making them work. What's effective for one couple may not apply to another. Nevertheless, I've come to understand that there's always a solution to be found. Half a decade ago, my wife and I faced such trials in our marriage that divorce seemed inevitable. Yet, through perseverance and determination, we navigated through the rough waters and emerged stronger, reunited, and more resilient

[@GregMunro]

There is a lot of sense in what you just said and I hope mine works the same way too, we are currently separated but I cant live without her, I love her so much. wish I can get her back I can do anything to have her back, we have tried therapy amongst other things

[@DarylSimpson58]

Its always difficult to let someone you love go, but in my case I had the help of a spiritual adviser who saved my marriage from collapsing her name is shelly renee white..

[@GregMunro]

This is helpful, I will look her up online right now...Thanks.

[@DarylSimpson58]

You wont regret it

[@LifeLikeSage]

Sadly, a perfect relationship is when a woman doesn't feel completely confident the man will stay in her future, and when she doesn't have many options for relationships.

[@Neoquaker1]

Don't become a prisoner to a being that operates on how she arbitrarily feels and has no sense of duty, obligation, and empathy towards her spouse.

[@DV-vn8rj]

As a woman I really like this take on the subject and it is accurate in my view. Everyone should strive to have their best life, and sexless marriage does not sound like a way to go. It is fascinating to me that cheating gets condemn but sexless marriage sort of just is not talked about.

[@rassbagley3191]

Marrtied 45 years, sex went downhill fast after children, have 3 grown daughters, 5 grands. No way I can leave so, we are roommates. Miss good sex but that was never with my wife, never was comfortable with it. Such is life I guess. But, the house, cars and boat are all paid for so I fish more... :)

[@0biwan7]

how is the following not a recipe for disaster: 1. sexless marriage 2. man feels entitled to go outside the bounds of monogamy (affair, corn, rent a professional) 3. woman ends the relationship because he cheated 4. all sympathies are extended to the woman and the man's reputation is destroyed 5. man loses the respect of his family and friends 6. the children grow up not living with their father many men would live with the sexless marriage for the sake of his children

[@cheeks7050]

Correct

[@justinAclark2075]

Pretty solid point. Poor fellas

[@byron739]

Watching porn isn't cheating, pal.

[@tomato1019]

@@byron739so watching two people being intimate online while touching yourself or touching yourself to another woman on the internet is not cheating?

[@luxbotics7503]

Get a realistic adult companion robots with advanced social AI that is adapted to care for your best.

[@alteroxx]

I’m sorry but if a woman married you, and doesn’t have ssx with you… she married your property not you.

[@alteroxx]

And if initially there was sex, someone must have not been listening to the other party for it to be there disconnect.

[@LifeLikeSage]

And yet there is no law to protect men from this.

[@charlesli1555]

exactly, hence no marriage.

[@JasonMckenzie-h6g]

I made the same conclusion over a year ago. Withholding sex out of spite or neglect is "cheating."

[@klaaspekala6804]

Right! As withholding sex is an ego game most of the time (or so i suppose), they are cheating you with their ego.

[@cosmictreason2242]

Matthew 19 says that sexual immorality is a justification for divorce 1 Corinthians 7 says that withholding is sexual immorality and forbidden

[@Maybe-cg2tn]

Men do not understand why women quit having sex in a marriage. It could be for spite but most of the time that is not why.

[@JasonMckenzie-h6g]

​@@Maybe-cg2tn Regardless of the reason for cheating (whether it involves stepping out or depriving your partner or not) it's still wrong. There are more productive ways to deal with relationship breakdown than that.

[@LifeLikeSage]

It absolutely is cheating, because it's a breach of the contract.

[@tucobenedicto1780]

A man living in a sexless marriage seems the same as a woman living in a supportless marriage. Each one is getting nothing of their primary need.

[@Whitepilledprincess]

Both seem to be quite common

[@Korschtal]

I think you could argue that a wife denying intimacy will find her husband unable or unwilling to provide "emotional support", because how can he feel safe enough to do what when she is being so knowingly unkind?

[@smartass0124]

That depends on the vaws . I think even Martial RP and or right leave should be between the couple

[@alexandrasolomenko4085]

@@Korschtalworks the other way , right ? So maybe instead of judging other sex it’s time to make en effort for both of them

[@Korschtal]

@@alexandrasolomenko4085 Or maybe instead of women trying to blame the other sex (I see what you're doing there) it's time they took accountability for their actions.

[@ThePhabulousYvelise]

This is VERY insightful. I am one of those rare women whose ex-husband had ZERO interest in sex. We went YEARS without sex. And I wanted it! I love sex and am very sexual. My best friend and I talked about this and many other things wrong with my marriage. We concluded that he was not fulfilling his contract. We were married and the only person I could have sex with is him. He decided to not have sex, which meant that I was not having sex. We eventually divorced. This was one of many reasons.

[@daytradingknockout]

In this case I agree with you

[@thebiharivoice]

The reason a man will not have sex with you is built up resentment due to years of emasculation. Did you emasculate yout husband? Just curious to know more about the ground situation. here. I wonder what your husband would say about his reasons for not having sex with you.

[@ThePhabulousYvelise]

@@thebiharivoice I am a very traditional woman. He came home to a clean house and a home cooked meal every day. He was very controlling and insecure. He lied and manipulated me a lot to get his way. I actually love a very masculine man and he was not that. I learned from my mistakes.

[@DownloadMalfunction]

@@thebiharivoicethis is the question I have. She is already talking to her about their marriage and most likely treating the guy horribly. She is coming here with a watered down story. I guarantee it.

[@troyrollo]

​@@thebiharivoice You cannot possibly know enough about her marriage to assume that the husband not wanting to have sex was attributable to something she did. Some people are just defective and it could well be the case that her husband was one of those people.

[@tspice11]

You can’t negotiate desire fellas. Cutting the grass won’t get her aroused. If you ain’t got it you ain’t got it, the theory is brilliant!

[@JDogB-tc3lx]

This happened to me 10 years no intimacy. 2 years ago I started working out a lot, I look great now and now she wants it, but I don't want it with her anymore because of how she treated me before

[@fathuman]

That's what it boils down to. You can't therapise it away. You can't throw flowers and chocolates at it. You can't exchange it for chores around the house.

[@tspice11]

@@JDogB-tc3lx that rejections stings

[@klaaspekala6804]

I beg to differ: If you ain´t got it, you can still get it. After all, she did marry you in the past, right? Regain respect in the relationship: tell her to cut her own f%&$ing grass and that you don´t like spending the evening watching TV-shows that you are not interested in with the ice queen. Stop doing favors for the spouse that is ungrateful and cold. Remind her that she might not be your only option. If mind games are necessary, even turn her down once or twice when she does make a sexual offer. Show her that you want her, but not necessarily need her. Start working on yourself and make it clear that you increase your own value for your own´s sake - not for them! People sometimes don´t value things unless they are about to lose them.

[@shedparker]

@@klaaspekala6804I’m curious, have you been married before?

[@dwightbrown]

Dr. Tarabin your brain is a society treasure.

[@KnightyKnight]

👆🏻

[@kumaknizinny42069]

Taraban*

[@ZelenoJabko]

@@kumaknizinny42069 Terraband

[@mickeygoogle7545]

i agree

[@brooks3376]

NEVER MARRY

[@IMYOURMAJESTY92]

It's that simple . You can't lose the game If you don't play

[@klaaspekala6804]

That´s the ideal - but ideals are like stars, you can navigate by them but you can never reach them... 🤣

[@ZelenoJabko]

Then how do you have sex if you are not married?

[@IMYOURMAJESTY92]

@@ZelenoJabko you have sex with single women . You don't need to get married to have sex .

[@LifeLikeSage]

They've already made laws to counter this, take it 2 steps further.

[@ZhuangzisDream]

the fact that women need this explained to them tells you everything you need to know about the state of our civilization

[@manager4409]

muslims are right in how they deal with women

[@nunayoorbidnez2119]

NEVER, EVER, EVER get married thinking that the hot courtship sox will continue. The hot courtship sox is the first thing that goes away. And NEVER confuse it for love.

[@tspice11]

Bait and switch

[@Kenny-Ross]

Sex is a medium of exchange. I though about this a couple months ago.

[@virtual-viking]

Even worse, the certainty a woman gets with marriage directly reduces her desire.

[@LifeLikeSage]

Women only perform sexually when they feel neurotic about not possessing you. Let that sink in. She is having sex with you because she feels she hasn't acquired you yet, not because she loves you.

[@eugenerider0701]

God damn, Orion spits fire again. You can steal someone away from someone so that that person can’t have sex no more, and you can also be stolen from the sex you are supposed to have if your wife refuses to have sex anymore. Damn.

[@rajakghosh6602]

Bad sex or sexless marriage is a dead relationship. No point to stay in that relationship. If your wife ain't putting out and she doesn't have any medical condition, most probably she is giving it to someone else.

[@SuperMBARutgers2013]

She might not be giving it to someone yet but she's Definitely would

[@leedlbagginshield8492]

or she’s not attracted to you. It’s a tough pill to swallow but I‘ve heard so many stories of couples in which one party admitted of no longer being attracted to their partner. It can be emotional pr physical attraction.

[@shedparker]

@@leedlbagginshield8492Agreed, and your comment also explains how some can become married more than twice.

[@leedlbagginshield8492]

@@shedparker Exactly. humans tend to be „periodically“ monogamous. They don’t have to be monogamous with the same person for the rest of their lives.

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@leedlbagginshield8492that's evolutionary psychology falsehood. People naturally sin. Everything natural is not necessarily right

[@Joe-gl8sr]

We need laws to keep up with society. Laws are rules of the game. They need to adjust as the game adjusts.

[@RT-mn2pb]

Law is always way behind current social reality.

[@LifeLikeSage]

The laws have been adjusting, they've been adjusting to keep up with men's counters every time men see a bad deal and get taken advantage of. The woman stops giving sex in the marriage? Man leaves. Man leaves, No Fault Divorce law is enacted, now it's "cheaper to keep'er". Man realizes he gets his assets taken when she leaves through No Fault Divorce, man decides to be in long-term relationship with the woman without marriage. Man doesn't marry, laws catch up and we have Common Law Marriage, now the man loses his assets if he leaves, even if he's not married. You see the laws are keeping up. They're keeping up for the gynocracy. Wake up, realize your only recourse.

[@johnfreeman9766]

Lived it. Cheated because of it; sent me down a very dark road. Better to just divorce.

[@DNA350ppm]

It was morally wrong to cheat, but it is not illegal. You can divorce for any reason! True, it is better to be honest and reliable, do be filing for a divorce if you want to feel morally free to have sex with others. Your spouse is free, too. Your children are both of yours, and you'll always have duties towards them, both of you.

[@troyrollo]

Bad that you cheated. Good that you have an understanding of your behaviour and seem prepared to take responsibility for it.

[@LifeLikeSage]

Laws like No Fault Divorce make even leaving a bad option, while laws like Common Law Marriage make starting a risky option. You can try to flee, but Feminism is spreading, your only option seems to be to not play a rigged game at all.

[@Ekam-Sat]

I understand. I think that's the very definition of gaslighting. Making the man think he is bad because he desires his wife. Bless you brother.

[@johnfreeman9766]

@@Ekam-Sat oh she absolutely did that. Made me out to be bad for desiring her.

[@Fred-x5k]

I was part of a large discussion group a bunch of years ago that looked at solutions. The consensus reached over time was that nothing could be said nor appeasing action could be taken to change the sexless marriage. I told my wife I would not be celibate and left it up to her.

[@coulie27]

Mostly true. About the only thing I imagine can be done is changing attitude from within (or suggested / "inception" by third party). Both have to *want* to want it.

[@markallen2984]

Bad sex is worse than no sex. It's like Lucy moving the football every Time Charlie Brown goes to kick it. Ol' Chuck would be better off not playing or finding someone else to hold the ball. Frankly, if your wife is unwilling to to make the effort, she is authorizing you to find a mistress/girlfriend by abdicating the role of lover

[@klaaspekala6804]

Spot on!

[@kencrum2524]

I agree with your general sentiment, but I think your analogy is a little off. The thing with Charlie Brown and the football is more like the wife that teases that something might be on the table and then has always changed her mind by the time you get to the bedroom.

[@gerhardvanderpoll7378]

Yes,please remember...a golf course has eighteen holes...never play on a one hole course....as your putter will become frustrated...😛👉💃💃💃🏆😎

[@williamblair1123]

"The worst pussy I ever had was fucking awesome" ~ An old dude I used to work with.

[@LifeLikeSage]

The biggest problem is men don't get to leave for this reason, capital "F" society doesn't see it as a legitimate reason.

[@Errricccc]

I know you're discussing this as the experience for men, but as a woman and wife in this situation, this is exactly how I feel, as you described at the beginning of the video. It's absolutely soul crushing to be rejected for so many years, despite following your 3 rules from other videos, maintaing my body and looks and interests, etc, and yet still end up in this situation.

[@s1n4m1n]

It’s a form of abuse no matter what the sex of the abuser is, though certainly wives resort to this form of abuse far more than husbands.

[@Ekam-Sat]

Hope you can recuperate brother. Blessings.

[@techsir8866]

Marriage needs to have a standard 5 year trial run. Then if both parties want to renew for whatever time, then go ahead.

[@shun2240]

This should be the way

[@SharonPiano8]

Only problem is when children are involved.

[@KP-dd2ci]

Marriage Lease

[@whdbndm8614]

Exactly !! That’s the perfect idea

[@megalodon1726]

That only works if there's no alimony and no redistribution of assets from one person to another. Otherwise at the 5 year mark you end up with the same financial wreckage as divorce.

[@rickroller420]

Women who say “sex isn’t that important to a relationship and you should love me for my personality because my looks will fade… therefore we shouldn’t be expected to have sex after a certain point” Ok, then I’m gonna go have an escort if sex doesn’t matter that much to you

[@RodneyLancaster]

I just bought your recent book. My doctorate is in music but I can really appreciate your scholarship and dedication to this work. Thanks....

[@jdvert4]

At a certain point, nothing can be done. Counseling or otherwise it is a lost cause the emotional part is lost in most cases. Time to move on: All of the excuses that women make for an extended period of time is all bs and just a munipulation technique for their benefit.

[@irfankhatri6637]

Sadly court of law wouldn't see it that way

[@IMYOURMAJESTY92]

So the wise thing to do as a Man is to not get married in the first place . Its rigged from scratch . 😂 for some reason men still sign up

[@Kreymore]

​@IMYOURMAJESTY92 because those men either don't see any alternative to what their tradition/religious dogma expects of them, or they are absolutely oblivious to what lies ahead in the future. Sometimes watching someone else burn themselves by touching a hot stove isnt enough. It's not until you touch a hot stove that you absolutely know never to touch it again.

[@bearclaw5115]

'Bout time they did. And with Taraban's reach these days, he may actually move the conversation.

[@katethegreat2222]

I’m a gal and I agree with all of this. Some people are very withholding and use it as a form of power, to deny another their needs. Not OK.

[@morganfeldman7752]

I am a woman and I don't understand why women think it is okay for them to withhold sex within a marriage. There are men who will do this also. I think it is a horrible thing to do. It is more prevalent among women though. I don't understand why this is so prevalant. I really don't get it.

[@Brymerius]

That’s a good point. I believe it has to do with complacency; Familiarity Breeds Contempt & Distance Makes The Heart Grow Fonder. During dating phase, a female counterpart would offer ample amount of sexual opportunities to secure the commitment due to competition anxiety. Once the commitment is secured via long term relationship or marriage. The sexual opportunities dwindles due to the absence of competition anxiety. And it certainly does not help when social media distorts our reality with plethora of perceived options. Or even worse, living vicariously through your single friends.

[@silvereagle2787]

It is the main way a woman has to exert control and manipulation in the relationship

[@morganfeldman7752]

​@@BrymeriusI think one of the responsibilities of marriage is to not allow yourself to breed contempt for your spouse. Of course, as time goes by, you will find things that you don't like, but choosing to marry someone means you do not allow these things to overwhelm the love and committment. A person should always be able to be physically intimate with his or her spouse. People need to treat marriage more seriously as a sacred union and part of that sacred union is monogamous sex. It is a vital part of marriage.

[@Macheako]

I agree. Neither husband or wife should be doing something like this ❤

[@jackdeniston6150]

Are you married though? How do you feel about the pay gap between men and women?

[@kalmartube]

That’s a very good and fair take on this topic.

[@jedmendoza4943]

It's quite simple. The masculine in the relationship no longer feels like providing or protecting. No longer wants to plan or pay for dates. See how long that relationship lasts.

[@LifeLikeSage]

The fact that the masculine in the relationship has to do these sacrificial time and money burning rituals to get affection should be a red flag in the first place. Avoid transactional relationships. If you aren't good enough for someone, don't date them. Don't let your desperation lead you to a bad relationship. Yes, you have to be okay with possibly going without our being alone, but in the words of the late Robin Williams: "The only thing worse than being alone is being with someone who makes you feel all alone."

Thanks!

[@KennethSee]

As a single Christian male who desires sex but won’t look for it outside of marriage, this causes my heart to drop. What’s the point? I can’t get it single and I won’t get it married. What the hell?!

[@troyrollo]

Convert to atheism?

[@trainwrecksRus]

You hit a very uncomfortable truth, my friend; the double bind. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. Maybe the Buddhists got it right; abandon all desire? I met the nice girl and met her in church and married 1996. No sex since 2009. Divorce the idea of marriage = sex because it doesn't. Maybe the bill of goods being peddled by Christianity isn't aligned with modern reality.

[@Vantitas]

As a single Christian man that took a vow to save themself until marriage back in HS till this day, I feel your pain and often question what’s the point in keeping it up with all the senseless tomfoolery going on in the dating scene these days.

[@AshtasticAcrobat]

@@KennethSee bring it to God. This video is discouraging in general

[@Hustada]

Don’t get married. Have sex anyway. The pastors telling you it’s better to wait are full of shit. Then ask God why he gave you a libido so high if you’re not allowed to use it.

[@Ed__Powell]

Thanks!

[@moxygenpathogen7678]

The cheating that you described is what I call non-infidelity cheating.

[@MrZuriax]

Sex/intimacy can't be enforced but most of the other things the man is on the hook for in a marriage is legally enforceable. Marriage in a lot of ways is a raw deal for men. You don't gain much of anything or any protections from agreeing to it, sadly.

[@wildbill562]

raw deal

[@MrZuriax]

@@wildbill562 Stupid autocorrect. Thanks 😊

[@youtubeviewer4472]

If person in a marriage lets himself or herself go, gaining weight and/or neglecting basic hygiene to the point where the other person no longer wants sex. Is that a breach of contract?

[@TheLinkedList]

I think this one needs to be explored more. As men, we're very visually and often aromatically stimulated (we don't like that fish smell ladies). If a woman let's herself go in ways, we withhold sex because we can't get stimulated enough. Point being, when a man withhold intimacy, it's probably for a different reason

[@trentvlak]

YES. and in the South, 40% of people are obese.

[@ponygirlup]

I was married to a mechanic / machinest who smoked cigarillos. God, I love the smell of chemicals, fast orange degreaser, and ashtrays! NOT

[@number7195]

I say YES.

[@jeanr8359]

Interesting take…. I do believe that the marriage contract has been broken…. But 6 months of sexless marriage out of 10 year relationship? What point do you call it sexless? My new husband’s previous marriage would be called sexless…. He would say sex three times for two kids…. An exaggeration to be sure but it did contribute to their divorce. He just stopped asking for sex the last year of their marriage…. He was already out of marriage emotionally years ago and was planning his exit. Because of his past experiences I will never refuse him…. I enjoy sex with him and it brings both of us closer together. He loves to cuddle …. And even without sex he loves intimacy.

[@tylercrooks8659]

I’m sure many men can relate to his experience.

[@Quadster19]

If you have to ask for sex then you've really lost. Why should you communicate wanting more sex when the witholder never said a word when they decided to stop having sex with you.

[@melkerner]

15 out of 22 years. If you go more than a year without, or less than once a month - there you are.

[@Quadster19]

@@melkerner The pace I'm on is worse than that I think. 5 years in sex about 20 times.

[@melkerner]

@@Quadster19 I am approaching 16 out of 23 years together sexless. we just had another major blow up and I made it clear - I will seek an attorney, she had better go through with seeking help or I am out, kids or no kids, I am done

[@aknightofcamelot]

I agree, and it's even biblical. In 1st Corinthians, it talks about sex as being a duty in marriage. It says "Do not deprive each other."

[@KJThePublicist]

C'mon now... you know women only quote the bible when it benefits them

[@__-tz6xx]

🤮

[@cosmictreason2242]

Matthew 19 says that sexual immorality is a justification for divorce 1 Corinthians 7 says that withholding is sexual immorality and forbidden

[@cosmictreason2242]

@@KJThePublicistthat's why you only get one who's serious. And if you're not one yourself this is wasted effort on your part

[@cosmictreason2242]

@Stefano-o5f the expository method of preaching results in the doctrine of scripture being preached at the same level of emphasis/frequency that God does, so it will not come up extremely frequently. But in my local church i inquired with the elders if they consider prolonged abstinence a justification for divorce and they affirmed it. That's the kind of eldership i want my wife to be subject to. Remember that women follow social trends and institutions. If the community shames abstinence then she will not be haughty

[@johntiggleman4686]

I've been in a broken contract since 2007. Now, there have been things typical that will make one or the other hold off. The main thing that affected our sex life was the birth of our first child in 1978, which was botched by the delivery doctor. So, he had mental and physical impairments. Of course, that affected our sex life. We still "did it." but less frequently because of the stress of our son. Years pass by, and we grew to accept his limitations. Fast forward to 2007 when for (an) unknown reason(s), sex just stopped altogether. Two years ago, my wife informed me she was "too old" for sex. At 68? Maybe, maybe not. I saw it as just another excuse. I told her she was not and that I still saw her as attractive. Didn't matter. No discussion went anywhere. I'm now 74 and have a good libido. I will say if the opportunity arrives to get involved with another woman, I will. I've been way to nice to her; doing most of the stuff around the house. It's hard to wean oneself from the doing things for her thinking it will make a difference, when I know damn well it doesn't.

[@Ekam-Sat]

Bless you brother.

[@andrewcliffe4753]

I live in the real world of ordinary people. It’s very common for men to be expected to live totally celibate forever. Often they do it for their children.

[@martiboxwell9680]

My wife of 25 years, who had cut off all physical and emotional intimacy for several years, told me that she thought me looking at any type of pornography was cheating on her.

[@V742]

My mother's close friend was one of the rare cases where the husband was withholding sex. He took a week to consummate their marriage, and was routinely terrible to her. He hid the behaviour in public, because he was a principal at a highly religious school. I believe one of his affairs was with a man. They did end up having at least three children, but their relationship was a disaster. The worst thing I heard was that after the divorce, she said (not to him, though) that if he asks for forgiveness and to get back together, she would straight away. She is a wonderful person, but far too forgiving. She really should have cut it off after the first week, but she tolerates far too much. Although, she tried to tame her wild daughter with more and more rules, which she naturally resented. She demanded a code of conduct from her child, but had none for her husband at all. People do not respond well to demands for compliance when the demander allows others to abuse them. Men (and women) should not merely have no tolerance for a sexless marriage - they fundamentally CANNOT without damaging other parts of their lives.

[@3D_Thinker]

The more accurate analogy is that the man (in the role of vendor) is no longer receiving the equivalent of payment for the goods/provision/value he is providing to his customer. That, of itself, is sufficient grounds for terminating the contract. After all, Why would any vendor continue providing goods/value for free to anyone ?? Likewise, if the man stops providing provision, the woman will instantly walk and terminate the contract on the same grounds. Therefore yes, one party (wife) arbitrarily withholding sex DOES constitute a dissolution of the contract - not just the one clause. in fact, one may even say that the entire contract between man and wife is just that one clause. Sorry Orion … I understand why Orion uses the analogy - that just because one clause of the contract is violated that it does not invalidate the entire contract … it is because otherwise, he will alienate any female viewers he has, since he would otherwise be implying that sex is a duty that the wife MUST perform. Unfortunately, because of his position, Orion instead implies that the man should continue to provide provision - even in the absence of sex - because that is what his part of the contract states. Wrong.

[@thomasjpuleo8112]

This was a good one. Enlightening. Thank you!

[@FaezAnsari-pe2yr]

You cannot negotiate genuine desire

[@wildbill562]

True, but sex is a DUTY in marriage.

[@FaezAnsari-pe2yr]

@@wildbill562 duty is soulless. The point of sex is connection and intimacy not just the act of it.

[@DNA350ppm]

@@wildbill562 Remember that sex is a duty (haha) if you ever get erectile dysfunction, be it for a medication or injury or depression or stress or unemployment, or your partner gotten obese, strayed, or your MIL moved in and life sucks. 😀 Sex is not a duty, because you are free, and can get a divorce for any reason at any time. Your children are always your duty, on the other hand.

[@tammielisa]

Ok now maybe talk about the reasons that women lose interest in sex? Like he ignores you, is emotionally unavailable, distant, dismissive, unkind, I could go on and on…

[@squamoza]

Women don't actually like penetrative sex

[@squamoza]

@KaylinFall Even though you can fake a penetrative orgasm, you still couldn't keep your man or find a man who will take care of you. Pathetic

[@lauramason5667]

It’s amazing how many married men are not having sex. Another fascinating truth is a lot of single men are not having sex. It’s a phenomenon.

[@alexandervaldes7200]

Absolutely genius! With all your advice. Thank you.

[@nunyabidness117]

I think this falls into the category of one of those what ifs, the consequences of which should be discussed before marriage, just like what if someone cheats. Once you're married and cut off isn't the best time to discuss it.

[@jamesfleming2317]

I disagree, once she refuses sex regularly, there is nothing that can be done to fix the problem, the issue is that you have given her all the leverage and everything she wants, there is nothing to bargain with, best to just leave at this point

[@taridean]

Bingo!

[@mnomad9173]

The biggest thing holding men back from filing divorce in a sexless marriage case is they lose half or more. A women being denied can file and walk away with half or more and not lose any sleep.

[@snicker12]

The 10-year marriage contract alleviates a number of these issues.

[@toxiccylon]

Yes

[@kelper205]

My strategy: 1 never get married. Only have long term girlfriends. 2. If the grllfriend rejects sex for a longer period of time, stop giving her much time and spend my time finding other girls instead. 3 just rent apartment. Never buy an apartment together unless she is willing to buy half. In Sweden where I live the house/apartment is split in half no matter who paid if you lived together and separate. We don't have almoney in my country fortunately.

[@Alexxx492]

Child support?

[@filsed]

Swedish women are Russian roulette anyway. EU expat living (stuck) in Stockholm…

[@kelper205]

@@Alexxx492 We have child support. But it's way lower than in the US, and not based on income but costs of having kids. The government pays for most things related to having kids such as kinder garden school university and health care for the kids. Maybe the child support would be 100-200$ per month. I don't have children so I don't have that problem yet 😁

[@kelper205]

@@filsed Swedish women are actually not great in a lot of ways. I prefer to date foreningeers. Stockholm people are also less friendly then people from the rest of Sweden. Kinda like how big city people like New yorkers are compared to other Americans.

[@LifeLikeSage]

This used to be a good strategy, but Common Law Marriage is starting to creep into more and more states. The laws are adapting to chase men who seek to escape bad relationships and to reward women who enact them.

[@meliciaoliveira9895]

Although the topic is very common among men, there are women who go through the same thing, but often they don't talk about it with anyone except their psychologist. From personal experience, I can say that it is one of the worst experiences someone can go through. Actually, it's hard to define what's more difficult: being married and not having sex or getting divorced. 😶

[@BourgeoisBoys]

...With all due respect, it's nowhere near as hard for women as it is for men. Most women benefit from a divorce, while men get taken to the cleaners. If I am to give you impartial advice. I'd tell you to divorce your husband and take him for as much as you can financially in court and find someone new who will satisfy you in the bedroom. (some men are gonna hate that I just said that, but it's the ugly truth) As a women you literary can not lose. Don't even feel guilty about it, he is the moron who married you only to deny you sex, making you entertain divorce in the first place. The system overwhelmingly favours women, so there's no need to come on here and virtue signalling like "hey guys, I'm a women but can relate to this too" lol

[@maaron23]

If she doesn’t want to have sex with you, she’s no longer attracted to you. Then decide what you want to do with a partner who doesn’t find you attractive.

[@ricardoge96]

Thanks Doctor Orion, you made me feel a lot of shame go away from the fact that i left my exgirlfriend due to lack of sex

[@SuperVolsung]

Happy Birthday Orion

[@stmatthewsisland5134]

I recall in the film ‘Gone with the wind’ that Scarlett refuses to sleep with Rhett (as she didn’t want any more children) and he says to her ‘You do realise I could divorce you for this’ so I presume the law on this matter was quite different at one time.

[@DBTwister]

Paying the bills can also become a chore. If we have a rule the we don't do things that we consider chores - it must apply both ways.

[@edwincasimero8834]

I'm a veteran of a 10+ year sex less marriage. Thus I no longer believe in monogamy. My experience has taught me that as a good man, to remain respected, I must practice polygyny / polygamy.

[@IMYOURMAJESTY92]

I agree. They end up respecting you more if you have multiple options. You just give them more leverage by being exclusive.

[@mjaybee]

Read Ester Vilar’s “The Polygamous Sex”

[@MegaMuff2000]

@@Susan-fg3nv Well what do you think of @IMYOURMAJESTY92 's response (first reply to the comment)?

[@smartalex22]

@@Susan-fg3nv Actually, the presence of more women actually decreases the odds of being turned down due to stoking competition anxiety.

[@Kenny-Ross]

Falls in line with a discussion I had with a buddy of mine. He basically said that in order for her to respect you, you have to show her you have options. She has to feel that you have options and could walk away at any time.

[@marktapley7571]

Most women will stop putting out after a while once she has the kids. That’s why the state enforces the gynocentric contract. The man has only two options and both are bad. Stay in the present situation or lose at least half of what you have worked for all those years

[@brandondegraaf]

Third option, hit the gym and get a side piece. Fourth option, go broke, then divorce.

[@DBTwister]

Nice take. I worry that the audience who needs to watch it - won't have the intellectual capacity to understand it or the emotional discipline to get past the first phrase that triggers them. The only time I have ever been close to marriage - we were spit balling ideas. She wanted us to write our own vows. Sure. "Will you promise to never cheat on me?", she said. Sure, I can honor that request as long as you promise to never withhold sex from me. Hey where are you going??? *** Crickets *** Gone. To her, writing our own vows meant that she gets extra stuff for free. It is worth going through an exercise like this to convince yourself that you are making a huge mistake.

[@virtual-viking]

I would have imagined most women would find it much easier to promise ahead of time to not withhold, than actually upholding said promise down the line. So you definitely dodged a bullet.

[@DBTwister]

@@virtual-viking I don’t think she would have a problem lying about it - she was more offended by something being expected from her. Sex in wedding vows was ‘not classy’ to her but all the things expected from me were somehow classy?! Freeloaders will never be classy to me. This was a few years ago and she has been married and divorced since then so is clearly still not mature enough for marriage.

[@robertaquilina3848]

Denied sex by my wife for 12 years and outrageous statements given as to why all marriage vows broken here back to massage parlours where no judgement is made

[@roses6564]

Sure, it's usually a withholding wife and a denied husband. But there are plenty of "other way around" cases - including those where the husband is hooked on porn or very low drive or has a neurotic ego (Madonna/Whore complex) and does not know how to approach the wife, so he is often afraid of rejection, or comes from a puritanical family, afraid of "soiling" the "mother of his children." Believe it or not, there are cases like this. The wife usually wants to be approached/asked/pursued, otherwise she won't approach him since many women find the idea of having to ask the husband to have sex very demeaning. There's also the reality that many women can do without sex with another; what they can't do without is their man's expressed desire for them. On a different note, it is interesting how sex seems to be the only item society gets hysterical about, even as we know full well that the elusive marriage "contract" is multidimensional. If there is such a thing as marriage contract (spoiler: it isn't), then other dimensions should be included. A partner should be held just as responsible for failing to provide items that are extremely important to the spouse and affects their well-being. Not just sex. Many women, for example, need companionship, conversation, connection and emotional intimacy with their spouse. These are as vitally important for them in the relationship as sex is for men. And yes, those needs must be met IN the relationship, not outside of it. The argument that sex is limited to the couple whereas everything else is not, does not hold water. A woman can have great connections with many people, but if she is emotionally and mentally estranged from her husband, it's debilitating for her mental health. So then is it OK for women to make the same fuss men make about the lack of sex - if they don't get their emotional needs met? Why are sexual needs more important than emotional/connection needs? Who says that? Just because sex is material and the emotional needs are immaterial? That's BS. Mental health and emotional fulfillment matter just as much, if not more. Both men and women can easily give themselves orgasms, but they can't make themselves feel fulfilled in a lonely relationship. And women are way more affected by loneliness in the relationship than men are. If they get their sex, most men are OK without internal connection. Women are not. Yet loneliness remains a very serious condition with measurable negative impact on mental health and quality of life. And no, sex doesn't fix loneliness. Then what? What should happen when the man refuses to meet a woman's emotional needs and leaves her feeling lonely consistently? Or just can't? "I have a headache" goes both ways. "Can't do conversation now, I need to go to sleep." It never happens. Rings a bell? He is emotionally unavailable and only wants sex, if that. A minority of men don't even reach out for sex since they prefer porn. Does that mean breach of contract? Or is it just sex deprivation that really matters in a marriage, and everything else can be procured elsewhere? That's a bad idea, btw - one point where Dr. Taraban is wrong, wrong, wrong. The woman is often sent out to have her "connection" needs met with someone else: friends, extended family, children, take a class, etc, and he does the same thing - talks to the bros. All fine and dandy until one day she finds a dude she actually connects with emotionally, and if she belongs to the cerebral minority, intellectually too. Then here's that "Where have you been all my life?" soulmate. We all know what this is likely to lead to. Then the husband has a conniption fit about "being cheated on," cuckolded , etc - when she'd been asking him - no, delete that, begging him - for years to pay attention. Many cases like this. You can't have it only your way, gentlemen. If you're gonna cry "sex deprivation," she has just as much of a right to cry "connection deprivation." So why not get the other type of "deprivations" in the contract while we're at it? "Yeah, but marriage is about children, blah blah blah, and children are made with sex ...blah blah...and the Bible says... blah." Um ...OK. No it's not. Not anymore. Or it'd better not be. We're at 8 billion in an atomized global society with community breakdown, and marriage is still "just about children", therefore essentially about sex? Leave history where it belongs: in the past. In the 21st century, what marriage is really about is voluntary intimacy, including the mental kind - or especially that kind. It's a sense of connection and belonging which can't be found in the community anymore. Only a strong intimate relationship can offer that. Now if you both find yourself crying deprivation of some kind, the marriage is simply crap. Not to worry, you're in good company. Most people's marriages are 50 shades of crap even if they would have you believe otherwise. If you have the blessed chance, replace with high goodness of fit and don't look back. Dirty little secret: society needs a lot more divorce, not less. It just needs to learn how to do it fairly, sans pettiness, drama and vitriol. Considering how clueless the young are, its a miracle about 20-30% of marriages are somehow lifelong happy marriages (or mostly). Everyone else needs a wake-up call.

[@chipsteve]

If we broaden out your point how about how a woman approaching a man is "demeaning" - this is some kind of backwards cultural regression I've noticed in the last 15 years. Obviously it must have something to do with social media and swipe apps, but I'm not really sure how to unpack the psychology of that. Women en masse were approaching and were pursuing, and now they've just stopped. Just look at the timeline of Bumble for evidence of that. On women needing emotional and mental intimacy, okay. You, and the other women who make long comments here, are the vast exception... In that you are thoughtful and cerebral about deeper topics. I can't tell you how many men I see these days "faking" this attempt at emotional intimacy by flat-out faking enthusiasm for these dumbass conversations: Astrology, social media memes, psychic nonsense, reality TV, stupid unfunny "humor" etc etc (Edit: to say that with older women, it's about their uninteresting career or their pets or some cliche vacation they took etc)...& dudes are like "oh really? tell me more!" it's incredibly cringe, yet i see it all the time. People's brains have rotted, and especially women's brains. So you have a situation where any "emotional intimacy" is performative and false from the get-go. Then that gets complicated with physical intimacy, add all the dopamine oxytocin et al involved with that. It's a foundation of sand for sure.

[@2899]

Wow!

[@roses6564]

@@2899 Waow?...I know. It goes down hard.

[@lynnferry291]

@roses6564 Very well said! None of the men here are asking themselves WHY their wives don't want to have sex with them. It could be lack of emotional connection. It could be that the wives resent getting stuck with 80% of household chores and childcare. Or it could be that their husbands aren't very good lovers.

[@markdatheist9179]

Thank you for adding credibility to the take I've been screaming at entitled, selfish wives for literally years.

[@Merdle]

You married her. Idiot.

[@legiontepes3474]

Great take. I couldn't agree more.

[@ktbernetes]

Great episode, and it definitely got the conversation going. This is actually a huge problem that most men don't talk about because of how many of our non-superficial male relationships get sacrificed upon the altar of the nuclear family model. But when I've gotten to "real talk" mode with a lot of men, it's actually a fact of life for more than half of the married or co-habitating LTR men I've talked to. Enough so that if we talked about it more out in the open, I think we'd add another statistic that everyone knows (even if it doesn't alter their choices). Over half of marriages end in divorce. Over half of co-habitating LTRs end in dissolution of the sexual element of that relationship. Rather than just acknowledging it's also a form of cheating, which I agree with his take on, we also need to make it more clear to young people. Dad's telling sons "I know you love her and want to spend every minute with her...but if you move her into your place and have no distance between you any more, there's a better than 50% (or 60%...or 70%) chance that in 5 (or 7 or 9) years she will no longer want to have sex with you. If she starts folding your underwear she made lose interest in taking them off of you anymore. Are you prepared to be accountable for that if it happens?" It might change the script a bit so that maybe more relationships keep some space until there's good reason to run the risks above - like wanting to have kids and raise them under 1 roof, where there is already strong evidence that it helps improve their outcome by having two parents under the same roof. Most men love their kids so much they'd take a coin flip on the wife to be guaranteed a better outcome for their children. I don't think most men know there is a risk here, and it's a risk that isn't the same if they make different choices. A great topic related to this would be co-habitation and intimacy... Does familiarity breed contempt (or is it something else which beckons the "4 horsemen" - as the Gottman's put it?)

[@csmith9699]

@ktbernetes---well women DO talk about it. How husbands are withholding sex out of power and control, then going off like little boys and masturbating to porn or whatever is there thing they wish to block you from

[@the.phoenix.79]

I'm sorry, but NOOOO woman should get to decide your celibacy !!

[@csmith9699]

Nor no husband should withhold sex from his female partner as an obnoxious form of control and power and it happens all the time. Wake up guys! Women aren't the enemy

[@the.phoenix.79]

@@csmith9699 Since women "control" sex in a relationship... Absolutely that is the case.

[@petelipson3769]

Thanks!, i have a request for a topic, conversation up above.

[@extrememindee]

Interesting and logical take. Why don’t you address the fact that many/most men let themselves go overtime and are not desirable any longer? Same could be said about women too. Letting yourself go could be seen as a betrayal or breach of contract that precedes sexlessness. Also, both parties need to feel pursued, not taken for granted, for sex to be on the table.

[@flazjsg]

That's 100% true. But the bottom line is women have the power of the state enforcing their portion of the wedding agreement. Stop supporting her financially or do ANYTHING to upset her and she has the right to file for divorce, in which case the man will likely be paying her alimony. If a women lets herself go, the man can divorce her, but he will still lose in the court system. It's a win-win for women and a lose-lose for men.

[@anjunatuna]

@@flazjsg @extrememindee people need to discuss these things more openly before marriage and potentially include them in the prenup. Not enough people wanna have that conversation and reasonably so since it's a touchy subject and people are usually blindly in love when they're getting married but tbh if looks/sex are important, make clauses for that in the prenup.

[@erinkirk297]

Emotional intimacy precedes sexual intimacy. It's a cycle that continues to cycle. If the husband slows the emotional intimacy because he feels that season isn't needed once he's married then the wife will end up feeling used. Just as a husband shouldn't get sex outside of a marriage, a wife shouldn't go to another man for emotional intimacy. Keep the emotional intimacy alive to keep the sex alive to keep the..... and the happy cycle continues

[@2899]

Will do!

[@lorenwilson8128]

And if there is emotional intimacy but she still has no desire for sex? Some women lose their desire as they approach menopause and don't consider how their husband still has desire for them. Some women feel like their husband is just using them for sex. It becomes a transactional issue instead of a shared joy. Some women don't love themselves so they don't accept love from their husband. There are many reasons she feels the way she does. I understand why some women will not talk about it, even with a counsellor. These women will get a divorce or the husband will exist in the marriage but they are less than roommates.

[@CatCassandra]

There are woman who live a lonely bitter life because the man has no love language. It has been two years! He has no shame about his lack of love.

[@LisaCulton]

I consider it a breach of the marriage contract by the party refusing physical intimacy.

[@EvilFandango]

This expanded my mind, thank you Doc.

[@Bumblebeedance15]

So what about illness? Cancer can put an end to non-painful sex. Sometimes there are physical reasons a woman may withdraw sexually, like bladder inconvenience or prolapse. Would you divorce for that? I know the statistics say men are 20% more likely to divorce their sick wife than women their sick husband. Id like to know you're view on this.

[@flazjsg]

These are exceptions. He's talking about MOST instances, not the exceptions.

[@ktbernetes]

I'd say that you have to decide first if reasons are allowed to change the factual basis of a condition or not. You either are going to come down on the side of absolutism or subjectivism. Forget sex, let's do one that's far more raw. Husbands striking their wives. You are either an absolutist here and say "If a husband strikes his wife, that is abuse and the wife should get as far away from him as she can as fast as she can." Alternatively you can say "Well, a man who strikes his wife because he's mean or a drunk then he's abusive...but if she disrespected him in public then she had it coming." I'm not picking some sort of fantasy scenario here, this is reality in some places in the world. I think things get harder when you try to make things acceptable or unacceptable on the basis of something subjective rather than objective. Or how I'd put it - it's easier to teach your son "Men don't hit women and don't tolerate others who lay hands on them, either" than "Well son, you shouldn't hit girls unless they cross a certain line, then put them in their place." The former makes for men of principle, the latter makes for easy enablement of abusers... Trying to determine what reasons are legit and what are "excuses" is just exhausting and does zero to change the amount of sex you'd receive anyhow. So for my 2 cents, it's easier to just evaluate what is or isn't happening and decide what is or isn't a boundary. In this case - if you stop having sex with your husband, he's going to be hurt on-par with how you'd be hurt if he cheated on you. So...are you okay with that having an impact on your relationship? If not, figure out something that works for you two, don't rely on their being magic reasons that will invalidate the hurt it'll bring about. If you don't talk about it or face it head-on like the outcome matters, then it conveys the key thing - you don't care that the other person is being hurt by this state of affairs. The worst case scenario you offered up, cancer, is likely going to fundamentally change the dynamic in that relationship at some point if it hasn't already. Once it becomes the ill and the caretaker, the sex issue is going to leave out the side window of it's own accord. Until then, if they had a great relationship sexually, then it also won't come up in this way because the wife will be concerned about the husband that she'll find something that works for her until she's too sick and is entering the ill/caretaker dynamic. Whether that's a "permission conversation" or her taking care of him but in ways that are more comfortable for her situation, something will be said because she'll be worried about him too, even if everyone else is only focused on her and her situation. If they already weren't having sex before the cancer, they certainly won't start now. If she relied on reasons or excuses to not have sex before, she'll not need to come up with any more for the foreseeable future... How this likely goes probably looks an awful lot like how it was going before the illness showed up, to be honest. I think it speaks to a very female fear, the same one that makes a long-term committed relationship so important. Will he be there for me, to provide for me and protect me, in my greatest moment of need? Even in the age of no-fault divorce, why is a marriage commitment considered so much more highly valued than just being a long-term girlfriend? It's for similar reasons - the security it represents. Unfortunately, the data you cite is the best data I am aware of as well. Fact is, at the macro level (every individual relationship is different) a randomly-selected man is statistically significantly more likely to leave a woman due to illness than a woman is to leave a man in the same situation. But there are two elements being left out here that matter: 1) What men typically get out of a relationship with a woman (and vice versa). Yes, if a man was being taken care of by a woman and now he's not, he might be more likely to want to leave when that stops. But, change the topic, and it's easy to find an equally ugly example going the opposite direction. A man who loses his job is 33% more likely to end up divorced in the next 12 months than a man who remained gainfully employed. It's easy to see that a woman who picked the best option available to her at the time may not feel he's the same prize he was once he's drawing unemployment and sitting on the couch. So while this statistic is likely true about men, it's also equally true that there are gendered differences which aren't flattering about what sorts of things increase the likelihood your spouse will leave you. Some truths are ugly, but it's better to understand human behavior than pretend it isn't so. 2) A random man isn't a specific man. Pick a better man, get a better result. If you keep going back to men with no track record of responsibility, don't be shocked when a huge responsibility moment like this lands and they bail out rather than face it. This is just as much on women not picking good men as it is on too many men not being raised to be a good man. Prioritize men who were raised with the right values and see their oath as their bond, then if something bad happened, even if he wasn't getting what he wants out of the relationship any more, he's a man and he's going to hold up his end and take care of his wife. These men aren't part of that 20% in the statistic. However, it is a place where a woman does get to deal with the consequences of her choices in men, good or bad.

[@brandondegraaf]

Going by the statistics, a lot of men will stay in a sexless marriage. Beats me why. There is more than one way to have sex, btw.

[@BourgeoisBoys]

@@ktbernetes This is incredibly insightful. Thanks for sharing.

[@bobhouse9331]

I really appreciate your unconventional take on this subject. I suffered with a sexless marriage for a year, then celibacy during separation now over 2 years. I feel betrayed, on a lot of different levels but I didn't have a way to describe this part of it. Thank you.

[@alteroxx]

Work on being a good providing men, stay fit, take care of your body and mind… and pick a woman that ADMIRES you, as long as she does she’ll be giving it all!

[@IronMan-hh9jf]

How to avoid sexless marriage : 1. Don't be the guy that she settled 'down' with because she couldn't get the guy that she wanted. 2.Don't get married.

[@97MrStew]

It’s a lose, lose situation. Marriage in this modern age is just too risky for men. She can turn off sex completely any time that she wants. Then what?

[@AncientTrogloxene]

In your economic perspective of relationships, glad you have addressed this breach of contract. There needs to be a broader discussion of fraud in creating the marriage contract.

[@cosmictreason2242]

God says m abstinence is fraud Matthew 19 says that sexual immorality is a justification for divorce 1 Corinthians 7 says that withholding is sexual immorality and forbidden

[@bellatindale3120]

It should definitely be considered as a form of cheating.

[@pepperboxstudio]

I think you're totally right and I would offer that sometimes a partner will become disinterested in sex because they are cheating but do not want to admit it. I believe this is what was going on in my marriage for years, so I'm giving you an example of the opposite gender situation.