Punish Thin Value Bettors with This Play

[@AtomicAndi]

quite the progress: instead of just "Euro" you now distinguish "good Euro" and "bad Euro"

[@virajs.8864]

Does euro actually mean European or does it mean European crusher

[@mikeyluk5113]

Let’s be fair. He didn’t say he was a “bad” euro. He just wasn’t a good Euro!

[@adamseidel9780]

@@virajs.8864Bart means basically any non American player when he says Euro, including Asians, especially those who are traveling to play semi professionally or professionally

[@AtomicAndi]

@@adamseidel9780 Asians are Euros, too!? Now THAT is being American

[@theejayzeeable]

@@AtomicAndi that poster is confused. Bart refers to Asians as Asians.

[@intrepidus3378]

I really wish poker room managers would take a closer look at the button straddle. It is so bad for the game. I think when it first started coming around it might have been okay, but players have slowly learned that they are at such a dramatic disadvantage in early-mid position that they just fold everything except the premium hands.

[@puttmanftw765]

Where I play at regularly you can straddle from anywhere and honestly all the thinking players including myself straddle the button every single time. Do agree that it is overall bad for the game tho.

[@jamesbell1613]

Or they just leave the table or move seats. I refuse to play at that disadvantage more than a couple orbits if I can't move.

[@spaffron4285]

Train by day Crush Live call ins by afternoon, all day

[@michaelspino906]

This was great hand analysis. Both an understanding of the theory and an understanding of your player. These things need to be put together in order to optimally play at any stakes, but especially lower stakes.

[@Badbentham]

" If I had a better kicker I would have called" is, at least at face value, a rather wild argument from Villain: Top pair is a nearly pure bluff catcher, no matter what. - Sure, the kicker can play some major role as blocker (i.e. some AQ, blocking AA, could be incidentally good) , but I am pretty sure Villain talked about the pure abstract value of his hand, where indeed Q2 is just as good to call with as any.

[@johns783]

perhaps his kicker is what determined what point of his range he was in, as in he didn't have a wide range of quality hands and he should only call with a certain percentage. so the kicker is what determined to him that he wasn't high enough in his own range to call. just spitballing.

[@1vailchris]

It's bizarre. Qx is entirely (not nearly) a bluff-catcher here, but it's so hard to find hero's value hands that get played as an x/r on the river, unless villain is the sort who will over-fold to triple-barrels, but will often bet when you check to them, and then make a loose call (or tight fold) if you x/r them. This would totally work against me, but I don't think I'd ever take this line with AK, when villain looks like he's never folding.

[@Badbentham]

@@1vailchris Yeah, they talked about it a bit: Hero has a very small value range; his Check-Raise line makes probably the most sense when he is capable to play AA/KK this way, and faces an aggressive opponent who often bets the River. - But, as this may in real-time not always be the case ( he may bet AA more often than not) , and as the line looks fairly bluffy ( top pair is supposed to be very curious , and call, with eyes closed) , it falls a bit into the "random spew" category.

[@1vailchris]

@@johns783 assuming that's the thought process, I'd be curious what the call vs fold range looks like. Q6 and worse are probably folding pre-flop. Q7 is probably going to raise flop, and QT is going to raise turn. Q8 and Q9 conceivably have some back-door potential on the flop, but probably fold turn. That basically just leaves QJ and KQ. But why is he betting either of those hands on the river for value, then folding? Does he really think hero is going for a x/r with AQ, or KQ? If hero isn't likely to x/r with either of those hands, the kicker shouldn't matter. It seems like hero's x/r is trying to represent a monster, which is really just As7s or Qs7s.

[@johns783]

@@1vailchris yea i'm just guessing. so maybe he does have q8 and q9 that he gets sticky with. to him his whole range on the river really only is top pairs based on his line. so if he has to call with some percentage and that entire range is AQ to Q8 then he should be folding out that lower portion, so maybe he was sitting there with the literal worst hands (Q9 or 8) he gets to this spot with, tries to get his thin value, and folds. just trying to create a scenario that might make sense to explain it.

[@mikee4375]

I live in IL. Rivers never had a poker room until last year. Before Rivers most would play at Horseshoe in Hammond IN.

[@TomRauhe]

Mr. Thinnest Value advises how to play against it 😂

[@beleebit]

Questionable check raise by hero. Do we ever reaallly x-r with KK+ here? I think it’s more EV to just bet on the larger side on the river and get called down by most of villains Queen range instead of XR. And if we think villain will fold a Queen to a XR in this particular hand, then why would you ever play KK+ this way if you don’t expect to get called on your XR. I am not sure how villain arrived on a fold here but I think hero faded a disaster here somehow

[@1vailchris]

I don't get it either. AK wouldn't seem to have enough showdown value here to risk villain checking back with all his Qx. If villain is terrible, he could have a lot of 7x here. He might also be bad enough to not realize QT is losing to over-pairs when the board pairs 7's on the river, and make a snap call, thinking his 2P are the best hand. This play would only seem to work against villains who will often bet thin for value or as a bluff when you check to them, but who are capable of making tight folds when they get raised.

[@JohnSmith-nx7zj]

@@1vailchrisI’m calling the check-raise with QT in V’s spot. You block QQ and TT which seem two of the most likely hands to make this play. Sure you lose to AA/KK but I really don’t see those hands check-raising river.

[@1vailchris]

@@JohnSmith-nx7zj trying to put myself in villain's position hurt my head. If I have QT, I'm raising turn. If hero calls, and the board pairs on the river, if hero has AA or KK, he might lead out, but that would be weird after villain took the lead on the turn. I'd expect hero to check and villain to bet there, and for hero to just call, when villain has so much TT in his range. If hero checks, I'm just checking back with QT, because what hands can hero have that will call and I beat, other than AQ and KQ, and maybe some sliver of QJ? All my other Qx hands I get to the river with are suited Q's with the Q of spades in them, (AQ, KQ, QJ, Q9, Q8), and I'm just checking back with all of them, because I'm blocking all hero's top pairs and hero's busted flush draws, and the hands I want hero to have (like QJ), weighting him more towards over-pairs. The rest of my range is 7x combos that were either 2p on flop or turn and are now a boat or are 7x with the 7 of spades, like As7s. I'm betting with all those hands, and calling hero's x/r. That's why this line is so bizarre - villain's river betting range seems to be heavily weighted towards hands that aren't folding.

[@martinst-pierre6620]

Our bluffs like KJs/AJs would also want to empty the clip

[@1vailchris]

@@martinst-pierre6620 I'd rather barrel the river without a spade in my hand. Villain's called three streets already. It doesn't look like he's in a folding mood, so I'm probably going to check-fold here with hero's hand.

[@qlow5956]

Super common scenario to find yourself, so LOVE this kind of breakdown

[@danielmeuler2877]

I am a Big Fan of Rivers Des Plaines. It has a few small issues but they have a LOT of people with money they seem to be Allergic to. I have a Unreal hourly average there.

[@SerErryk]

Hot damn! I'll have to visit.

[@danielmeuler2877]

@@SerErryk I drive from 1.5hrs away(in good Traffic) from out of state and pay 9$ in tolls just to play there. Northern Ill has a lot of Money, and no shortage of people that think you just sit down and win with no real idea of what it takes to be a winning player. The room also runs a decent high hand jackpot every hour that attracts the Fish like crazy, that runs every day not named Friday or Saturday. I promise you, it's worth the drive.

[@brandondorsey7204]

I play out of that room too. Im glad that I saw this and that it's not just me. I considered quitting my job and playing full time but I don't trust the win rate. It's so much higher than my win rate at Grand Victoria that I'm wondering if it will revert to the mean or if the games will stop being so good.

[@edition-deluxe]

If you just think about it for a sec who would bet, bet then just check if someone is calling the whole way. Seems like a good way to miss some value, that is why I would be more inclined to call the raise or even reraise.

[@jamesbell1613]

What you can do about it is not play at a table where the button straddle messes with your blind. Or move seats of course.

[@sampantiliano]

Why not button straddle when it’s available? You have position on every street plus pre. 😊

[@johnross4958]

Bart, if most everyone is button straddling do you do it?

[@noThankyou-g5c]

4:20 what does Bart mean that usually somebody is “walking” in drop/rake games? I thought a walk meant when it folded all the way around but I’m not sure if that makes sense in this context. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a walk in live poker tbh 😅 (granted I haven’t played _much_ live).

[@The20thHijacker]

Somebody is away from the table taking a walk. So table is playing less than full.

[@noThankyou-g5c]

@@The20thHijacker ohhh lmao its literal

[@samgibson6408]

The better exploit is to do what bart said at the end which is check raise AA/KK if you know villain goes for thin value. Especially if hero thinks villain’s range is mostly Qx and missed spade draws then that makes it the best play. Also when check raising the river as a bluff it helps if villain has bluffs themselves because villain will autofold their bluffs, thus increasing the profitably of our bluff. If the assumption here is that villain never has river bluffs for this sizing then that makes check raising as a bluff even riskier, especially if villain is a thinking player who may get curious about what we are representing.

[@1vailchris]

Yeah, villain bet less than 1/4 pot. That's rarely a bluff, unless villain is just terrible at bet-sizing. There's so much more Qx and 7x in villain's range compared to hero's range that I might take this line with 7x if I'm in hero's spot. With over-pairs, I'm just going to triple-barrel and hope to get value from villain's Qx.

[@Tomatolover120]

How do I punish people who punish me for going for thin value?

[@CurtisWilliams0817]

I definitely thought, what is the hero representing here. I think a better villain may find a call on the river?

[@kennethchia4194]

Villain really didn't think that through very well right? You make that bet prepared to call a check raise or just check it down to get to showdown, no?

[@parmanduke]

Great play

[@1vailchris]

This line is so weird. Is it supposed to look like hero is check-raising 7x or an over-pair? Wouldn't over-pairs and 7x just continue to barrel on this runout? Villain's river-betting range seems to have a lot more 7x in it. Going for a check-raise here is relying on villain to be bad enough to bet Qx for value. If villain is bad enough to bet Qx for value, is he really folding often enough to make this bluff profitable?

[@marknoble5495]

Sounds like a great read on the player. If he had a weak Queen he shouldn’t have bet river and just showed down. I mean what are you calling with that he beats? I might have raised you on the flop if I were him.

[@notNaB2024]

"getting towned" haha ok. Can't wait for Bart to say "CLP term I created here" in 5 years when all the vloggers start using "getting towned"

[@mralmondbread]

Was it a "good Townie" or a "bad Townie"

[@danweaver5787]

Don’t bring up 5th street 🐔 or I will yt 👋 u

[@EllieBanks333]

This was a nice read of his opponent by the caller. It was also a poor play by villain. I'd have snapped him off without a seconds thought. If I did take a second to think about it, I'd probably guess his exact hand out loud & then call.

[@TheNow_Now]

AK is just a terrible hand to bluff with even though people always put others on AK. Theoretically, there are way worse hands to bluff here with, like KJ/89/A5 that lose to all made hands and better A highs, whereas AK beats all bluffs. Not saying hero should have called here with AK, just that people always end up bluffing with AK when it is rarely used as a bluff by solvers except in certain configurations.

[@pot_kivach160]

This line of bluff worked this time, however, I do not see it profitable on the long run. If I called all streets, and even value bet river, I'm not folding to a x/r in this line of H play. Never. Simple, I do not see the hand playing that way that beats my top pair (2 pairs). If it's not a boat, not triple, not top pair, then it's A high or pocket 22!!! 😂

[@collinleger9546]

I was there summer of 2020 and poker room was still closed

[@echo996]

i think you give your opponent too much credit for Qx on river. while possible, he could also have air on the river given hero's history of villain and was just forced to muck to a raise

[@mangohavoc6428]

OH SNAP! ITS BORT CRANSTON!

[@Duderz]

This dude all over the place

[@cwyoder]

Rivers Des Plaines opened their poker room in April 2022.

[@DStern20]

The room opened in April 2022 so it’s very new

[@sirpaddlesworthiii5933]

punt at my game. QJ snaps.

[@GurjitDeol-n4u]

Bart just mad cause he would’ve folded if he was put in this spot going for thin value

[@brianfloyd2279]

Some play to make the nuts while real poker players play to have their opponents by the nuts...

[@aloha270999]

I think he had 68

[@danweaver5787]

Caller seems weak passive

[@DonTrump-sv1si]

Its also good to remember that he's not always telling the truth about having a queen (no kicker).

[@charlesnewborn3760]

What the fuck does that have to do with anything? Hands over, ehat relevance does him telling the truth or not have? But regardless Of course he has a queen. I see this shit all day, river bet identical to turn bet. This is never a bluff. Villian is going for value.

[@DonTrump-sv1si]

@@charlesnewborn3760 Its relevant to the analysation after the hand. All analysation was based on the fact the he did have the queen. And just because you claim to see this kinda bet all the time and it means that this is a queen is just not logical.

[@EllieBanks333]

Villain did have a queen here.

[@DonTrump-sv1si]

@@EllieBanks333 Oh he did? I missed that part where he showed

[@AT-bw4cm]

@@DonTrump-sv1si He said villain tanked for along time on the river. Probably not going to take minutes to fold a bluff.