Putting Bartitsu on trial

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

Was a pleasure chatting again fella. Next time, we film in a pub!

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Absolutely! It's a date.

[@warrennicholsony.fernando4513]

Great discussion.

[@jeanwandrag3527]

How many boxers have you boxed? How many kickboxers have you tried your bartitsu against? And please take a video of yourself sparring any MMA youtuber who would love to collab with you.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@jeanwandrag3527 mate you are barking up the wrong tree here. Tommy has spent plenty of time in the ring. It's why I actually value his opinion on Bartitsu. Even if I disagree with his conclusions.

[@epilecticshananigins]

@@EnglishMartialArts I had a feeling you’d agree to a meeting at a bar 🤔 lol

[@daxmafesi]

I believe Edward Barton realized the same thing Bruce Lee did. Your striking changes when there’s grappling involved, same thing goes as jujitsu changes once you add strikes and both of those change when you add weapons. Thus no one martial art has all the answers better to cross train and increase your chances of living another day

[@rinzler9171]

Odd thing. Bruce should have recognized that having limbs interlocked as they often get in Wing Chun blend well with grappling systems, and learning how to strike in compromised positions is where the 3rd form tech deviations come in to regain the center. This bullshit that WC is ONLY a striking game without any eye towards locks and breaks reflects gross misunderstanding of the system, and this scrub level understanding of throwing thousands of tappitty tap strikes further demonstrates the chunner throwing them doesn't understand anything at all about power through the stance. Ip Man told his students to get out there and fight, in other words, learn how to apply your stuff versus other people.

[@Raiden4019]

@@rinzler9171 I like to think that he (Bruce) did realize that to at least some extent, but he was either too busy or too proud (maybe both?) to invest some serious time in learning grappling. I mean, it's not like there wasn't any opportunity or availability; BJJ may not have crossed the border yet (remember that the Gracies and other clans had been doing judo and submission wrestling since the 1920s at this point), but Judo and various schools of wrestling were still plentiful and Gene Lebell was still a big name at the time. But Bruce had his own reputation and career path that, beyond simply expanding martial arts thought, was also reshaping the perceptions of asian people and the roles they could have in Hollywood at the time (honestly I think THIS is the more important thing he did in his life). Side Note; what are your thoughts on the Taiwanese MMA fighter Qi La La? He uses a lot of Wing Chun in his style to decent effect in the ring.

[@Fardawg]

@@Raiden4019 Maybe try reading Tao of Jeet Kune Do and other books compiling his methods. Or even watching "Way of the Dragon" (especially the Chuck Norris fight with standing guillotine finish), "Enter the Dragon" (especially the opening sparring fight with arm bar submission) and what he filmed for "Game of Death" where he showcases throwing and grappling techniques, including an arm triangle choke. Or just look up this video someone made from the movie clips: "Bruce Lee - takedowns, grappling and ground skills"

[@Raiden4019]

@@Fardawg 1. There is a difference between fighting ability and movie fight choreography. I can pull off any submission I want and tap out Khabib Nurmagomedov himself 100 times out of 100 if I'm the lead character in a movie in which the script says that's what I'm gonna do. I don't need to understand setup, resistance, or be in good shape or anything, I just need to follow the directions of my choreographer to make sure it LOOKS authentic. 2. I've seen those movies, and the grappling techniques are hot dogshit. There's no other way to put it, they're terrible. Any wrestler/judoka/jiu-jiteiro/sambist worth his salt will say so.

[@moominpic]

@@Raiden4019 I think there is also Lees possible prejudice against Japanese styles

[@thirdactwarrior317]

These kinds of discussions are pointless. Martial arts don't get in fights, people do. If a Bartitsu student learned just a few good techniques and learned them well, and was able to use them to defend himself, then Bartitsu worked...for him, that time. That is all we ever know for sure about an art. There are certainly sham arts, techniques and instructors, but it sounds to me like Bartitsu had good instructors from respectable arts who would have taught good techniques. The fact that it did not hold together as a system is a marketing/business issue, not a martial arts issue.

[@jaytomioka3137]

It seems Barton Wright was a P. T. Barnum style marketing genius with a good idea that didn’t really go anywhere. Had he mastered the component martial arts; Bartitsu would have become something. Instead he was a ring leader who lost control of his circus. No doubt that loss of face really effected him. Had he succeeded at holding the center... history would regard him differently. The fact that his curriculum has been recreated today, better than it was; points to the effectiveness of his concept. I don’t think anyone can argue that he was a great martial artist rather than an “idea man”. Creativity is the art of making connections between disparate sources and bringing them together. He did that, but too many cooks spoiled the soup.

[@canadafree2087]

Jay you are right. If he embodied the style he could have kept it in the public eye much longer; as it was, his school was no more solid than the people he had teaching for him. When they left, his school fell apart.

[@iandurie8580]

He was a showman like the Gracie's family except they were more talented martial artists.

[@moominpic]

I think part of the problem was that he marketed it at "gentlefolk" and needed to keep the subscriptions high to keep the quality. Unfortunately, that priced him out.

[@bloodhyena]

I have trained in it,love older puglism methods over modern boxing ,savate and standing jujitsu ,all great ,I believe he was ahead of his time .

[@junichiroyamashita]

Standing JuJutsu?

[@ktoth29]

I'll admit I haven't done much research; but I always thought Baritsu was just making improvised weapons with everyday objects (for 1900) like canes and umbrellas and figuring out how to use them effectively for self defense. Which I think is fundamentally valid. Martial artists tend to get bogged down in nuances of very specific grappling situations you are never likely to encounter in real life. Does that mean Barton Wright wasn't a con man? no more so than crossfit or mma or any other modern fitness movement that is repackaging a variety of disciplines and marketing it as a lifestyle.

[@andrewwalton6236]

I am a Bartisuka and I don't think he was a conman, I think he was a dreamer. If he were a conman, there would probably be a degree of skill in pocketing wealth and getting out before it went south. He however was ultimately buried in a paupers grave which suggests his ego (naming it after himself after all) was writing cheques his capacity couldn't cash which I think supports my stance he wasn't a conman. Regarding the issue that many of the people didn't mention him later, I think this could be down to the fact he himself didn't bring anything to the art except the syllabus and maybe the seeds of the mindset of martial science over martial art. I've always considered Bartitsu to be the Quintessential British Martial art in much the same way the British Museum is British, I.e. bits we've stolen from around the world and done something different and interesting with in fusion and/or synergy. As to what Barton-Wright brought to martial arts. I think that what he brings is double barrelled. 1) Marketing and a Cautionary tale. It's all well and good being good at selling a product but pointless if you don't understand it too well whilst it shows you how good he is at Marketing because Conan-Doyle stole it's name and here we are talking about it a Century after it's original incarnation died 2) A mystery that has benefited martial arts in general. Because here we are, a century later looking at obscure 1900's martial arts and there abouts because of obscure and off hand references and trying to fill holes in the lore with offerings from contemporary alternatives. So if I were to agree that original Bartitsu wasn't that good, I don't think that matters because even if it were truly awful, the trial and error approach to relearning the closest fit we can get to Bartitsu has reintrodcued a lot of quasi-overlooked historical martial arts and skills. - Loved the Debate - even as a 10 year Bartisuka I found myself much more in the middle ground than I thought I would.

[@Mr-Tibbster]

I was hoping you'd encounter Bartitsu Lab Moore! I regard him as one of the few who takes Bartitsu seriously and tries to make it into something legit (as opposed to a lot of other other groups today where it's more of a fun novelty act and component of Victorian cosplay) Great stuff. And a very interesting opening opinion, one I've never heard before.

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

Cheers fella that’s very kind

[@dunbarselfdefenceclu]

Love this, good honest debate no animosity. Credit to Barton Wright for seeing the opportunity and bringing these guys in ( or at least giving them a venue) and helping to open up the market, AND of course allowing Sherlock Holmes to escape the clutches of Moriarty. I personally wouldn't train Bartitsu but it's a good story.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That's fair!

[@s0nofp2l]

Really excellent debate, good points on all sides. Couldn't call it for either of you, but personally I love Bartitsu and all it iterations. Coming from from a historian who particularly loves the Edwardian period, a HEMAist, a Holmes fan and Steampunk I was never going to say anything else though.

[@padre2275]

Tommy, if I ever have to go to trail for koshing someone, I would like you to be by defense attorney. The prosecution failed beyond a reasonable doubt to show that Mr. Barton-Wright was indeed a con-man.. The jury finds the defendant not guilty on all counts.

[@M_K-Bomb]

I feel Barton-Wright deserves credit for tailoring those arts together for self defence. But, I am really suspicious that he didn't attempt any other classes after his one club fell apart. I get was is being said about Bruce Lee, but I feel he did really combine the arts and reshape them that they became a totally new martial art. Which in reality a lot of martial arts don't even go through a change to such an extent. So I feel he still needs to take credit for creating an IMO authentically new martial art.

[@niallmccavana3901]

Love these longer videos!

[@Quach7]

I think he was way ahead of his time. Con man? Yes. But remember what Sun Tzu said, "All wars are based on deception." Preying of people's fears of being mugged in the street is a genius idea. I think he's the Equinox of his day. He's quite genius actually. Rich people are people who have other people do the hard work for them. Wouldn't it be great if you can best them, man to man, hand to hand? Then you have nothing to worry about. And you can learn ALL the fighting styles all in ONE place. It is a genius concept. Even the gym today has little bit of that fakery, and I don't mean Equinox, I mean all gyms. I know. I don't have a car, I walk or bicycle. Most people cannot match me in walking or bicycling. There is a tool to train your grip. It is a stick with a string and you attach a weight onto the string. What you are doing is "imitating" wring wet clothes with your hands. We don't wring clothes with the invention of washing machines. Hitting a tire with a hammer. Nobody in the gym is "working on the railroad, all the live long days." Farmer's carry/walk. We're not farmers carrying jugs of milk. You DRIVE to a gym to get on a STATIONARY bike, or a STATIONARY treadmill. A gym is PRETENDING to do physical work. A place where you can you can have the ILLUSION that you can best thugs is genius. And it is not that far from fantasy. It could be REAL. This Barton guy is a genius before his time.

[@irkenempire]

I think every generation will participate in this debate. Kids my age experienced the "ninja boom" and Karate kid. Star Wars indirectly fueled my love for swords. No amount of Taewondo at the YMCA will make you a ninja though. No amount of knowledge of Iaido or Itto-ryu will make my katana a light saber. It's as close as I will get, and I am aware of the differences. I think running around telling people they're crap because they're just "L.A.R.P.ing" makes people a bit crap themselves, unless the people they're telling are in danger because their lack of selfawareness. Riveting debate all the same. Glad I found this.

[@ignitionfrn2223]

3:00 - Start of the interview 4:15 - OG Bartitsu is a scam 7:35 - The Bartitsu club & the teachers 10:50 - Bartitsu or Jujitsu ? 12:30 - Barton Wright V Bruce Lee (the mcdojos) 14:05 - Fake martials arts 15:30 - Good idea but bad execution ?(The short life of Bartitsu) 19:05 - _Damnation Memoriae_ (Is Barton Wright disowned by his former teachers ?) 21:15 - The teacher's fallout(a fistfight 24:20) 26:05 - Conclusion

[@thedarwinist672]

Everyone knows the best defense is carrying around a bag of pommels

[@DavidB5501]

I assumed from the title that someone would actually be trying out Bartitsu in realistic self-defence scenarios! If they did, it would probably be rubbish, because most self-defence systems are. (A few self-defence 'experts' have demonstrated this in relation to knife or gun attacks, but they usually spoil it by going on to plug their own preferred system, which needless to say is not exposed to the same criticism.) There is not much you can realistically do against the people who are most likely to attack you, i.e. bigger, armed or multiple attackers. If you can't run away, you are pretty much screwed. Your best chance is probably to use the 'dirty tricks' which are not allowed even in MMA: scratching, biting, pulling hair and ears, poking and gouging eyes, bending back fingers (aka 'small joint manipulation'), pinching and twisting skin or flesh (especially the goolies), head butts to the mouth and nose (easier if you are shorter than your attacker), and plenty of screaming. In short, fight like a girl. In a self-defence situation that is nothing to be ashamed of, especially if you *are* a girl, which is about half the population.

[@godzilladude1231]

Hey man! I got an idea for a next vid! Have you tried reading on Tom Spring, the inventor of the “Harlequin Step” which was probably one of the earliest recorded technique of a feint in boxing (and probably combat sports history)?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Springbis a fascinating character. I've done some research into him, its pretty complex. His relationship with Cribb is an odd one...

[@godzilladude1231]

EnglishMartialArts Oh man... i hope you can share it. P.S. Also, sorry for suggesting that you “read on Tom Spring”. Like silly me, off course you’d know and already read muh about him xD

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@godzilladude1231 Don't apologise! I'm always happy for new video subjects to be suggested!

[@charliemcbroom2674]

Great video guys, I tend to lean Tommy's way. I think Barton Wright was a keen martial artist who wanted to take what he considered the best parts of martial arts available to him and share his passion to the world. Like most of us, he would have love to do his passion full time and knew he had to take the plunge into making it a professional club, Running a business and a passion are two different things and often combining them, things can go wrong.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

You are obviously a nicer person than me! Or maybe just less cynical...

[@charliemcbroom2674]

@@EnglishMartialArts Haha :P perhaps, but one point you made and I suppose this could be true of parts of HEMA too, is that it is really hard to say if what we study today is what was taught at the club. Confession, I might be a little biased as I like Bartitsu :P

[@AlexanderGent]

Interesting topic. I think a key question for me is there any clear theme besides "self defense" that links everything. Is it just a bunch of systems lumped together or is there a common thread based on principles that links them together? For example systema (love or hate it)can vary significantly as some may focus on grappling others on striking but regardless you can tell is systema because of the way they move, theme of relaxation etc. Even though they are doing very different things. In my opinion their should be an underlying principle for it to be called a martial art and not just a collection of techniques.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Yep, and while we can clearly make one now, we have no idea if whether Barton Wright did, so its just guesswork.

[@AlexanderGent]

@@EnglishMartialArts if he did, I'm pretty sure it would have been documented or passed on. I'm sceptical given the short time period he trained. Takes ages to be proficient in one discipline let alone several and then being able to link them. If he didn't exist in the history books, besides Sherlock Holmes missing out, I'm not sure, it would really impact too much on the martial arts community.

[@warrennicholsony.fernando4513]

Both had good points. Still, the fact that Edward Barton Wright came up with this concept is still worth the recognition.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

But did he? Or was it just one in a long list of silly fads he stuck the name Bartitsu on hoping one might make him rich?

[@warrennicholsony.fernando4513]

@@EnglishMartialArts I guess the question there is whether or not he was able to codify it into a comprehensive system like Krav Maga or Keysi Fighting Method.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@warrennicholsony.fernando4513 that's definitely a worthwhile question. And if so is that system any good?

[@warrennicholsony.fernando4513]

@@EnglishMartialArts Which one would you be referring to?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@warrennicholsony.fernando4513 Just that if he did manage to codify it into a single system the next question is: is that single system any good?

[@boereburger6762]

I love Barjitsu. I love the Barjitsu videos. Keep them comming. Keep up the good work.

[@sherrilufflee]

More longform!! More longform!! 20 minutes is the new ten minutes and you've got all the knowledge and storytelling acumen to carry it.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Lol, I must admit I watched a 30 minute Tom Scott video recently and loved it...

[@sherrilufflee]

Not so much in presentation but in informative value and binge watch potential, you're like the lindybeige of fists and i couldn't believe i wasn't already subbed to you 🥊🥊

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@sherrilufflee Lindybeige of fists. I like that...

[@harjutapa]

@@EnglishMartialArts I really do think that COVID has made everyone much more willing to sit through longer videos, especially if the presenter(s) are warm and/or interesting, such as yourself.

[@nickrhodes9031]

Left with the feeling that Barton Wright was a martial Mary Shelley

[@ianbrew8760]

what was the shinobis of movement ? was it written & fond ?

[@psyience3213]

I did japanese jiu jitsu for a few months and the instructor was this huge, 6'4", 245lb of lean muscle dude. He was strong and I believe could basically make any bullshit technique that he taught work. Doesn't mean they're good techniques for the everyday person. There are a lot of people in this world who are just big and strong and are like, "look, i can do what I want to (mostly untrained) people"

[@BlueMageWithSoulEdge]

I think you both are right. Like much in European history the truth is within the between. I believe you are correct that he got his name blown up because of exotic imagination, but your friend is also correct about what it most likely was in actuality. You both support each other: Bartittin could have been a fighter at one time, but saw his talent was in doctoring, or used his fighting as promotion, or resume building for his doctoring. Many fighters also had side jobs as well, and the ones that had a side job, which could correspond with fighting, tied them together. Now opening up a gym and not teaching yourself is suspicious-- yes, unless it is a gym in name and Bartittin's method were more therapeutic and not pugilistic. In this manner, of course the fighters would not credit him in their works, if he was just the doctor that helped explain their moves. Think of it like that old show "Sport Science". Every once and while a fighter would come and do text book fight stuff. The fighter could later on write a book on fighting and not credit "Sport Science" as a helper in the building of the art, since the show didn't help create any moves, nor bring new philosophy, but explains why these moves work. The failing of the gym is most likely when money is involved. People are coming to be trained in combat skills, the teachers are fighters but may not feel they are getting am equal share compared to the owner, who's not seemingly doing anything. This can cause teachers to leave or not show up, thus closing his venue, but at this time he doesn't care 'cause he got his name out and is not known, so why bother to keep the gym now he can do what he really wanted-- doctoring. Personally I think Bartiarsu is being looked at wrong. Perhaps instead of fighting, it is a ledger on how to train and what to do on target areas without the high risk of injury. Hence the focus on JuiJetsu and more "soft" methods of fighting. Not everyone can do 6 sets of neck curls a day, or half an hour of Russians circles, but everyone could do belly rolls and light cardio on the floor. Good stuff regardless.

[@zekelerossignol7590]

I had the idea that since Barton-Wright probably doesn't exist in the Sherlock Holmes universe, then it could be said Holmes came up with the name as "the art of bar fighting" and could substitute the Japanese and 20th century techniques with historical European (chiefly British) techniques, which'd be something to consider in Sherlock Holmes' fight choreography.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Lol, I like that.

[@emptyness2583]

Hmm, I initially thought this was a form of "jitsu" for those fighting in a bar, which happens a lot!! A pint glass comes in very handy in such a fight.

[@Torthrodhel]

This pint glass will hold the beer that'll give me the quick energy I need to outrun these assailants! :P

[@VTPSTTU]

While I think that I learned a great deal by watching the two of you discuss the topic, I don't think I learned enough to have a strong opinion either way. I'm a metallurgist by education and experience. I'm disabled now, but I did that work for years. Thirty years ago, I was put in charge of trying to take the next steps in developing a new alloy that a mentor had essentially invented. As I started to put the new alloy through testing, I found problems. Some of the things he'd done had been done wrongly. The alloy seemed to do a good job in a limited application for which it was originally intended, but it wasn't going to revolutionize anything the way my mentor had believed. The guy who'd been a mentor to me wasn't dishonest. He wasn't trying to pull a scam on anyone. He was a guy of tremendous vision, and he thought he'd seen something that suggested a great future. He was a good scientist and very intelligent man. He'd just gotten a little too caught up in a vision. As I started working on the metal in a more neutral way, I found problems that he'd missed. I ended up causing all of those visions to come crashing to a halt because the alloy wasn't a dramatic improvement over similar alloys on the market. Having to quash the vision of someone who'd been a mentor to me was discouraging in some ways, but I did what I needed to do as an honest engineer and scientist. My point in this story is that I don't judge a man's heart by the outcome of his ideas. Plenty of visionaries will chase all kinds of ideas that don't work. We don't always know whether they always realized that an idea wouldn't work. If they always knew that they were selling something that didn't work, then I see how they were frauds. If they thought that the idea had a chance, they may have failed but they weren't frauds. The purists of various martial arts hate anyone who isn't a purist. To them, anyone who tries to combine different arts and different styles to create something more widely applicable is by definition a fraud because they think the worst of anyone who isn't a purist. I realize that they will always look down on Barton. Beyond the realm of the purists, the past sixty or seventy years have shown how combining different disciplines can create things that are enjoyable for students to learn and that provide some benefits. That different attempts have had different levels of success doesn't change the fact that the overall success of this business model vindicates the basic idea.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That's an interesting take on it!

[@paulrouleau1972]

Great arguments on both sides. I definitely fall in the middle on this one. There is just such limited historical information on the topic.

[@TimRHillard]

I’ve got both of Tommy’s books and they are excellent. Well done. Based on the book, if it was trained and sparred, seems like a decent collection of techniques. Missing ground work, but that was the time. Who wanted to roll in the crap and waste in the streets?

[@skeletmane5935]

Bartitsu is the original Krav “meme” Maga fad

[@EnglishMartialArts]

There is definitely a bit of memeworthiness there that's for sure.

[@skeletmane5935]

@@EnglishMartialArts in the same way bartitsu was a “combination” of boxing, jiujitsu and stick fighting, Krav Maga, in its original form, was a “combination” of boxing wrestling and judo. People are always looking for the magic bullet to cover all bases but they end up combining concepts from pure arts in a lackluster and inefficient way compared to just practicing the base martial art.

[@toddellner5283]

I've done franchise Krav Maga and spent some time with a couple IDF trainers who taught the people who use it professionally. There's a lot of difference between the two. As you say, boxing, wrestling, and Judo with special-purpose skills taught as needed to people with a particular need for them. Sentry removal, arresting techniques, and bayonet are of limited use to you and me. For someone with the right job they're important. Ultimately military combatives are military combatives. They always rely on physical fitness, aggression, and a small, self-contained system of high-percentage material that can be taught quickly and will be retained under pressure because that's a soldier's life. If you're twenty, already in top condition from basic training, and consider yourself expendable for the sake of the mission it's great. If you're not all of those things it has to be weighed against your situation and resources.

[@bartitsuantagonisticsforum5322]

A great debate with some good points raised on bothe sides. Felt it was more putting Barton Wright on trial than the art that bears his name though. I think there is no doubt he was a shady character and not a great martial artist ... but what he inspired is at heart what all martial artists seek; finding a way to fight that works for you.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I'd argue that is the modern interpretation of it, and not necessarily what was intended at the time. However the modern principles are sound and I won't argue with you about the impact.

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

Eighteen months ... that's either a failed school or an extended seminar.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I rest my case!

[@johnstuartkeller5244]

I was waiting for it at the end, though ... "Am I right, is Tommy right, or is Barton-Wright?"

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@johnstuartkeller5244 yeah that would have been great.

[@jamestheeggplant5446]

Failed? You can make the argument that all martial arts are the same thing either striking or grappling. Everyone is trying to get the right answers in a different way.

[@pingleton]

Link to the Schwingen book, or the full name and author?

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

I’ll drop you a PM mate 🙏🥊

[@mcubik23]

@@TommyMooreww2combatives :

[@OmarSoarez]

@@TommyMooreww2combatives , Could i have the link too please?

[@MalkWilliams]

Really fascinating discussion, thank you both. I think that you pose entirely legitimate questions and make some valid points - especially about why we still know about bar(t)itsu today, but I have to say, I was convinced by Tommy's answers. One point I have to make though, is that Conan-Doyle was right to omit the T. The name Bartitsu sounds just a tad... silly?

[@whim6287]

You should do this again.

[@micahboswell4000]

Great video and great mature discussion between friends. What's the info on the Ju Jitsu book you reference and own?

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Thank you. I'll be making a video on it shortly, but in essence it is an instructional from Uyenishi, one of the original instructors at Barton Wright's club. I'll be giving a scanned copy of mine to my supporters over at Patreon.

[@vyderka]

You both are right. Just each one of you sees one side of the coin (I guess in short maybe: having an idea of bringing together different arts and mixing them vs doing it without success). Ps the link to your new channel doesn't work? At least on my mobile.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Should be fixed now!

[@vyderka]

@@EnglishMartialArts nope, it doesn't work for me, neither on the phone or tablet, tomorrow I'll try it on a windows laptop

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@vyderka how bizarre, that is a direct copy paste from the share link on the channel.

[@Trollvolk]

A Problem i can see in historical fencing and bartitsu is the motivation of the practitioners. Out of all the reasons why you want to learn and revive an old martial art is, for a lot of people i know, the fascination for the surrounding time and associating with different illusions. Peolpe love the fantasy middleages or the victorian eara. They see tophats, canes and the charm of this age. Bartitsu is a goldpit for deep immersion. So a ton of people with lack of any martial arts understanding come together to train, learn or live this time. This is nothing bad, but it lacks substance. Non trained people reenacting something they want to look working. But it has huge problems with pressuretesting. Like wu shu it is not a fightingsystem. In hema classes i seldomly meet people who are motivated by Sport or competition. More of them want to feel like their Heroes from games, movies or books. Hold a sword once a week and building the illusion of their bulletproof heroes. It is something i see in bartitsu too. Dont get me wrong. This is no generalisation. And i love it when people are recontructing so called lost arts. And i have the biggest respect for their dedication. But i can see more of a skycastle build than a working system. I am happy to be prooven wrong. Just my experience with people i met.

[@lewisb85]

I say this as someone who has trained in Bujinkan, Shotokan Karate and Judo (black belt in all three) and is also an Asian Studies/Archeology graduate- martial arts inspired my degree choice etc. The reason why Barton Wright was able to sell Bartitsu is because the British upper class back then were more than a little bit racist, so he was able to put a package together and sell it to a client base who culturally would have a deep distrust of the originators of those arts (I'm including the French in that list). Something seems less foreign and strange if it's being sold and taught by one of your own.

[@toddellner5283]

Bingo. He took something foreign-and-therefore-rubbish and gave it a Good British flavor which made it acceptable. I didn't want to be the first one to say that. We see the same thing here in America. American Karate. American Arnis. Heck, Enter the Dojo/Ameri-Do-Te and all that good stuff from "Jiu-Jitsuing Uncle Sam The Unmanly Art of Jiu-Jitsu and the Yellow Peril Threat in the Progressive Era United States" is same thing a century or so later and across the Atlantic.

[@junichiroyamashita]

This may be the hidden piece.

[@tsylvester2523]

Laugh about radiance all you want, they shine a fancy torch on you for psoriasis to this day I ultimately do buy the ide that Barton's intention, even if he was just a salesman first, quack second and martial artist some distant thirteenth, was to sell you a system whereby learning multiple complementary martial arts would make you a more complete fighter. Ultimately, he gave the whole curriculum a name, his name, and didn't sell his collection of teachers as a business, "Barton-Wright's Academy of Defensive Arts" or whatever. I believe, even if the man himself wasn't a great martial artist with a unified system created from disparate sources and able to carry it on his own back as Martin describes of Bruce Lee, the intention to -create Bartitsu students-, who would know boxing, striking, grappling and the use of weapons in roughly equal measure, is the significant thing and he did conceptualise something special.

[@Stephen_Curtin]

Good discussion lads. IDK I suppose for me it would come down to how systematised was the curriculum at the Bartitsu Club? I mean did everyone study from each teacher, like boxing on Monday, jiu-jitsu on Tuesday, savate on Wednesday etc. Or did people pay and attend whichever classes they liked? I have a feeling it was probably the later, in which case I'd agree that Barton Wright probably has been given a bit too much credit in recent years.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I guess the problem is that we simply don't currently know. And so we have what people think it might have been. Which is all down to their individual lens...

[@taxusbaccata3001]

Really enjoyed the discussion! Although your arguments are good and valid I think if you apply the same to other martial arts and how they evolved you have a similar case. Also for me a martial art is rarely a fixed thing. So if you take the idea and change the art a bit to make it work (and I think Tommy Moore does a great job with that) it a legit and a good thing.

[@inregionecaecorum]

There is a fundemental fallacy in effective self defense. Knowlege of any martial art will improve your chances against an attacker with zero skill in anything, whereas if you are up against someone who is more skilful or just plain bigger and stronger than you, then it is not an equal match. Bartitsu does not seem to have any potential as a sport form that I can see and maybe that is why it died the death, whereas other martial arts all have sporting potential even if the sporting form like modern fencing bears scarce resemblance to the original.

[@josephperkins4080]

Bartitsu was ahead of its time

[@EnglishMartialArts]

I still think we may be seeing more than ever really existed...

[@josephperkins4080]

@@EnglishMartialArts could be.but shouldn't a art continue to grow and evolve even if it's a revived art

[@fredazcrate4362]

My ladd please permit an elderly gentleman to toss his hat in the ring. I believe the individual had a sound idea; the execution, however was poorly done. As for rest history is the judge. It's verdict final. Once again my ladd you brought joy too an old man's heart. God bless and your lovely family.🤔💯👌👍

[@moroc333]

I mean, if you think about it from a modern perspective, bartitsu was a flawed concept from the beginning. If you just train in a bunch of martial arts you can't just expect to become a great MMA fighter, you need to train specifically for the sport, you need to learn the techniques that allow you to transition from a form of fighting to the other and pressure test every new idea you got. What I'm trying to say is that maybe the art didn't have the most ethic of the beginnings, but if it worked it wouldn't have mattered anyway. Maybe if they would have had more time to develop it further and pressure test everything, they would have come with their own thing that worked (a proto-MMA or proto-Jeet-Kun-Do if you want) but you would need a lot more vision to get something like that. Something that not even Bruce Lee got with all his influence and resources.

[@strawbilly]

So I need a flow chart of the severity of British slang / cursing.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That sounds like a fun project.. Which ones prompted it?

[@strawbilly]

@@EnglishMartialArts Balloks didn't seem to be that bad to me as an american but made Tommy Smile and say that it was savage. Tits up was another one I'd never heard.

[@strawbilly]

Fire Festival is Guy Fawkes day?

[@strawbilly]

@Athos Aramis so yes. As that's os the day of the gun powder plot by Fawks

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Tommy was talking about this: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fyre_Festival

[@sevenof9652]

One of the first mix martial arts

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That's definitely what is claimed.

[@canadafree2087]

I love this and agree that Barton is mainly a salesman and that 18 months are not enough time to create a new style. As for fees, Bruce Lee sometimes asked for $1,000 per hour in the 70s, simply because the Hollywood crowd could afford it. If you are honest, you will look at what Barton did before Bartitsu and see Bartitsu as no different than anything else he put his hand to. As for how the art looked, I'd dare say it was people learning Jujutsu from the Japanese, stick from Vigny, boxing from another. I do not believe it was as unified as JKD (which itself was lacking in weapons, apart from the movie stuff).

[@sambaker1212]

Very interesting x

[@dfraser7402]

Tommy's right, or should I say ... he's "Wright"

[@Davlavi]

Interesting debate. I say middle point for me.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

A fence sitter eh? 😁

[@Davlavi]

@@EnglishMartialArts I suppose things are always complicated

[@peterjaimez1619]

The interesting point is that "Bartitsu" works at all distances of combat, from grappling to stick distance, it probably requires too much work, a wrestler would prefer is distance and would dislike the kick distance. Also it might be that Mr. Barton got himself injured, so his later emphasis in health therapies was out of necessity. Who knows? Cheers😀

[@PunchCatcher]

Not having made an exhaustive study of Bartitsu makes it somewhat difficult to comment but I'm obviously not going to let trivialities like that stop me. I think without knowing what the combined curriculum was like it is difficult to tell if it was "come in for an hour class and spend 15 minutes with 4 different types of instructors" or if it was "If you are walking in Belgravia and some uncouth ruffian confronts you, first do this (savate for example), then this (boxing), then this throw, then this hold until someone's servant fetches a constable to take the ruffian away" It sounds like what was advertised was the second, and what may have been delivered was the first. If that's the case then he was a con-man. If what Tommy is delivering is more of the second based on research then that's cool. In the end without the Doyle reference it would have been lost to time so it lacks the dynamic nature of JKD even if there are some conceptual similarities.

[@hectorafc3398]

Great discussion I'm afraid I agree with Tommy Purley as he has tought me a bit & I enjoy his videos but you do have a point

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Tommy's great, but his stuff doesn't work because of Bartitsu, Bartitsu works because of him.

[@MrEdium]

Sherlock Holmes movies brought this up & now they want to make money off of this but the concept of this art is inspirational.

[@henriquecarvalho880]

I mean, I get were bartitsu lab is coming from, but I agree with you when you say it wasn't that much to it. It was just one experiment (and a not so good one) amoung many others. The second half of the 19th century is an era of sistematization and "racionalization" judo, aikido and shotokan karate were all systematized in this era and the process of sportification of martial arts also were being developt, people were experimenting with martial arts and diferente systems. Shotakan karate for example, took a lot of techniques from facing and savate, the high kicks did not exist is traditional okinawan karate, yet they made their way into the shotokan system by way of cross pollination, same thing with fencing, if today you see shotokan practitioners lunging into their adversaries with a punch thats only because some of their developers were fancing entusiasts Look up the jesse "karate need" youtube channel, he goes to great lengths to research the origins and inspirations behind the many styles of karate

[@toddellner5283]

Mmmm, sorta kinda. Judo was a very new and extremely Meiji-Era thing. Kano-Sensei broke out of the traditional strictures of Ju-Jitsu, developed a modern synthesis, rationalized and updated the training methods and proved himself by either personally or through his students kicking all the traditional schools' arses. It provided the philosophical and pedagogical basis for the modern Japanese martial arts and a pattern for new martial arts around the world. Aikido was significantly later. Ueshiba-Sensei was a foot soldier and cult leg-breaker in the early 20th century and didn't really get Aikido as we now know it going until at least the 30s. Shotokan didn't exist until the 1930s. Funakoshi-Sensei was explicit about his aims - a personal improvement vehicle, a sport, something that could be taught in university clubs, not the Chinese/Okinawan boxing he had grown up learning. The punchy-kicky version of Judo as it were. So yeah. Judo was the really big late 19th century innovation that served as spiritual foundation of the next century or so of martial arts including the ones like Shotokan and Aikido and BJJ and Sambo and so many others. The things we take for granted like belts, gis, systematic teaching progressions and so on largely come from it.

[@dswynne]

Like JKD, MMA and Krav Maga, Bartitsu was an attempt to create a unique style for unique circumstances: a fighting style for the upper crust of society during the Edwardian Era. JKD was developed as a street fighting art for roof top fighting. MMA was developed in order to counter BJJ and the Gracies. Meanwhile, Krav Maga was developed for Jews, in the name of self-defense. And guess what? There's nothing wrong with it, because martial arts is about the human expression via combat, sports and otherwise. However, the question should always be whether these eccletic MA styles can withstand the scrutiny of being pressure tested.

[@DanPeters182]

Bartitsu is probably just as legit as Gracie University.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Oooh, I'm probably gonna stay away from that one... :)

[@DanPeters182]

@@EnglishMartialArts ha! to be fair I'm being overly facetious because I'm on the internet. What I should say is modern era combat sports have taught us it's that the constant use against high level opponents is what makes an art legit or not. A strictly curriculum based art like Gracie U always seems to find itself lacking against those that constantly live spar.

[@LuxisAlukard]

I don't know much about batritsu, and I'm not martial artist, but I liked the concept ever since I heard about it. If you can make it work, if you can, in modern day, combine 4 martial arts into one, and use it in real life situations - then I would say bartitsu is viable self defense martial art. It won't be (idealised) Bartons bartitsu - but what MA is same now as 130 years ago? And maybe he was a crook, but that doesn't matter nowdays - you are not paying him for some phony self protection techniques =D

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Good points!

[@Fardawg]

Imagine trying to "mix" martial arts and use the best of each, bringing together teachers who are proficient in each style... What a fool! No wonder that idea never took off.

[@HasturYellowSign]

Holmes would have also known folk wrestling and pugilism based upon the period and his behavior. And probably some swordplay.

[@thinkordie7292]

This is a classic example of the cake vs the ingredients. 🎩 gentlemen

[@Thes564]

Who cares if its origional and who cares what Tommy names his style as it works and its all combat oriented stuff.I practice Silat and Tommys art is very Silat like in its strikes as well as a little like ninjitsu and many other arts,his system is brilliant and so i started incorperated it into what i do and my other arts blend perfect with Tommys art so thank you Tommy.Tommy just keep doing what you do and never mind the peanut gallery

[@GrizzlyHansen]

The first time I heard of Bartitsu was just a few days ago when I watched Kengan Ashura so I cannot speak towards it except that the combination of martial arts sounds like a good idea. Although unless it is just for fun I don't see the purpose in practicing it, MMA sounds much more practical than trying to recreate Bartitsu.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

If you subscribe to the idea that EBW was deliberately creating a mix of contemporary arts to form a single coherent system then I can fully understand why you may take his principles and plug in your own arts, be they historical or modern and call it Bartitsu. It's just I don't...

[@requiscatinpace7392]

I don’t know who’s right but the guy in the hat is better at arguing/debating.

[@sabinniculae7481]

OMG, listen without watching and is Jeremy Clarkson! :) Great voice and cadence, mate! I would love a podcast! I came here searching "baritsu is bullshit" and stayed for the voice, the attitude and for the good debate! Great content! As regard to bartitsu... if you know bartitsu and i'm a twat, and i don't get a lucky shot, and i'm drunk, and ...... then you would definitely beat me :) So, I'm still not convinced... I will stay with learning Krav Maga on KZbin...

[@EnglishMartialArts]

You're not the first to point out the similarity to Clarkson vocally. I've had worse comparisons...

[@ulrichenry4881]

Bartisu as a concept is workable. But the problem with its creator he created a great title with a appealing Idea. He failed to combine it together and make a quote on quote similar style to MMA. It was more a saleman thing

[@Outrider74]

I think you have just made enemies of the entire steampunk community ;)

[@DukeandDrummond]

In part it's about marketing isn't it? The concept of melding martial arts together for self defense isn't novel. Histoircal Bartitsu sounds like it was one mans attempt to market this and sell it to the public. The difference is today we have a lot more protective gear and can stress test things better than they could. Watch a Shivworks ECQC evolution with sim guns and the helmets - technology just wasn't available then for that.

[@MrEdium]

What we have today is the "Concept of Bartitsu" is sort of like the JKD Concept. It's a blueprint motivated by money & pride reawakened by 2 movies.

[@DreynHarry]

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh.... James won't like the beginning of the video. :-D

[@EnglishMartialArts]

He's been battling with the dichotomy between canonical and modern Bartitsu for years. I think he'll agree more than you expect.

[@DreynHarry]

@@EnglishMartialArts well... only as long as you dont say something against Newcastle FC. :-D but yes, I discussed this topic 5+ years ago with James and you might be wright - he might agree on some things, but never the less, he sees Bartitsu as a valid form of martial arts. good question would than be: IF you say Bartitsu is just a melange of boxing, savat, la canne etc. and not a true form of itself and barton wright was just a conman... I guess you need to say the same thing about lots of the masters of the 15th and 16th (and most probably also later ones) century. Because they have done very similar thing (e.g. Peter Falkner)

[@GoodNeutralEvilChaos]

Baritsu is basically a mixed martial art. Only thing that matters is, it works.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Well it kinda is now. But there is little evidence it was back then.

[@GoodNeutralEvilChaos]

@@EnglishMartialArts he gathered 3 or 4 masters to create Bartitsu, he wasn't a fighter himself but he was smart. There are 2 main reasons it didn't work, greed and pride. His greed had him charging a ridiculous amount to students and the individual teachers each believed they were better then the others. This caused him to have a massive argument with one of the jiu-jitsu teachers which closed the dojo. If the price was lowered and the teachers could have worked together, I honestly think it would have stood a chance.

[@juanlugo7492]

Grew up watching the avengers and seeing Patrick McNee grappling people with his umbrella was surprised that it was an actual martial art I believed it was a gimmick made up by the show was really more about Diana rigg in her cat suit!

[@moominpic]

Bruce Lee had a wider audience of people to sell to. His Judo instructors were some of the first in Britain and Judo obviously grew. Part of the interest in martial arts in Britain by the 1960s/1970s arguably started with Barton-Wright bringing these guys over. To say "how we do it today" negates the fact that we are in a state where people are more aware of different martial arts.

[@foolycoolytheband]

A point worth noting about the japanese masters is the likely impact of japanese nationalism of the time. For many asians of the time the age of imperialism lead to a feeling of inadequacy. For the japanese this manifested in a need to prove that they were the equal to any european nation on all fronts. Japanese scholars, scientists, and nobility all traveled to Europe to both learn and demonstrate their own customs. It would have been completely reasonable to expect that japanese martial arts masters would have left a place had they or a handler felt they were not being give the time or respect they thought they deserved. On top of that these masters likely viewed these trips as a way to research and then bring back the techniques they learned to Japan. These kinds of trips were never about personal pride but national pride for the japanese nation, to demonstrate their perceived superiority and take back useful info to japan.

[@bretmartinez8212]

Bartitsu fizzled out for a reason

[@grahamarnhem8659]

Great practitioners make any art look great.if Terry o neill practised bartitsu it would probably be very effective.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

That is very true. I trained with him once, very impressive chap!

[@inthedenoftigers5702]

Conman? Mmmm is it any different from some modern systems such as Keysi which cobbled together techniques? I think that the thing that makes Bartitsu look more 'cobbled toghether' that it doesn't have an 'emphasis' or originality beyond the the suited gent and umbrella look. The quality of the instructors is not enough to impart qualitative knowledge, it requires *time*. 18 months? Not enough to be 'style' or to make a curriculum where you can tweak and optimise. That I think is the difference with JKD: we had in Bruce Lee a quality martial artist with decent knowledge in Wing Chun, having experienced some Boxing in school, and with a older brother who was Colony Master of arms fencing champion and represented Hong Kong in 1958 (?). He understood Wing chun, and could prise out what he wanted from boxing and fencing from his experience. Barton? I'm not sure he was of similar quality to be able to synthesise the arts that he attempted to bring toghether.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Exactly. Take that Moore!

[@TommyMooreww2combatives]

@@EnglishMartialArts I mean Bruce Lee wanted to kill the name and “style” of JKD soon as soon as he coined it. Probably about 18 months or so after he coined it. Then sadly he died. And people made it stay alive against its will and have sold it for years. So maybe that’s a failed style too 😉. (Just bants, I enjoy JKD and trained in it for many years with Nigel Tropman)

[@EnglishMartialArts]

@@TommyMooreww2combatives loving the discussion mate, thanks for sticking around, it's what is missing from most HEMA related channels. They just post and run...

[@inthedenoftigers5702]

I remember being interested in Bartistu years ago when I still was an active fencer, and was busy reading around turn of the century manuals, so I don't have a hatred against it, its no more or less bad than some stuff out there, and if its practitioners got some skills out of it that incorporated boxing wrestling and some funky oriental jujutsu, then even in six months they may have churned some individuals that could street handle altercations. But now actually I'm actually teaching fencing, and spending years boxing, kickboxing and some Taijiquan for my own amusement I see how much of a fools errand it is even trying to package disparate martial skills together. It takes a singular personality that wishes to expand on a certain aspect of combat and make it underlie a stylistic approach. In the case of Bruce lee he felt that the 'stop hit on preparation' , was the banner under which he wished to explore his own approach to the martial arts and retooled his martial knowledge and skills to coincide with what worked for him as an individual. But I think he eventually understood that - a) Stop hits have they own tactical counter, and is far from the ultimate sauce b) He recognizes that the 'stop hit', is 'his' approach to the martial arts. Not necessarily someone elses. He preferred that the people dropped the JKD tools and adopt his very 'counterculture' exploratory philosophy. Curiously JKD has survived with a schism between the Original branch that believe that Bruce Lee had found the holy grail of martial combat and try and retread his techniques and tools to channel some of his essence, and the Concepts branch which take tools from everywhere that informs their own personal combat relying on Bruce Lee's philosophy. When done well the first gain an insight into bruce lees martial learning and the second a philosphical compass to guide them in their own journey. When done badly the first look like imitators, the latter become dojo whorez. For me Bartitsu suffers from a lack of 'A' and very little of 'B'. It had no 'banner' under which it was assembled, which is where it differs from JKD. Theres no focus that made it really distinct (unless I am missing something ...I'll stand corrected if someone can point it out) beyond the cult of personalities of its founders, without a philosophy to allow for exploration. (BTW 'm no JKD fan either, but for different reasons)

[@toddellner5283]

While Bartitsu itself deservedly crashed and burned at least one set of its practitioners had pretty amazing success against bigger, stronger, and presumably more experienced trained opponents. I'm referring, of course to the Suffragist Bodyguards, Edith Garrud and her people. If it was utter crap they would not have been able to hold their own against mobs, undercover provocateurs, and uniformed police. They just would not. But they did. Maybe the Bodyguards consistently came up against completely inept and physically inferior cops and mobs (unlikely). Maybe it was because Garrud and her husband were better at it than the founder and changed the training enough to overcome its limitations (more likely). Maybe they learned a lot from a couple of the experts at the school and made it their own (most likely). But their nearly cliché ability to hold their own at the sharp end of social change and needs to be acknowledged. Even though his "system" wasn't all that the existence of the Bartitsu school made cross-pollination possible and gave us some amazing real-world fighters.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

The only issue I have with that is the premise that the Garruds were using Bartitsu. I understood they were pretty much pure jujutsu. And I'm fully on board with the idea that the foundation arts were all effective in their own right.

[@toddellner5283]

@@EnglishMartialArts Hence my "most likely". Between the Ju-Jitsu and cudgel work and boxing they were able to get a synthesis that worked for them.

[@gavinkaylhem8038]

Wasn't the Hat Pin defence from Baritsu.?. Because that fucked loads of men up. See Qi

[@epilecticshananigins]

Nice debate. I don’t like the comparison between Bruce Lee and Barton Wright.

[@willbrown2383]

Now do Monstery. Seriously.

[@davegray3049]

See that's the understanding of bartitsu is it's a type of MMA it's mixed martial arts you just have multiple different scenarios you've learned for different things you've learned how fence and do Kane fighting because back then people would be carrying canes they've learned different tactics of diversion such as using handkerchiefs and other types of things that they can pull out using their hats as diversions suchlike that it was essentially a fighting made for people who were not as robust because the assumption at the time was if you're going to get robbed by somebody or somebody is going to try to rough you up it's going to be somebody who is stronger and that is why this martial art was famous for a short time among some of the Richer people because you got to think and all those different fighting styles and Kane fighting in fencing in boxing and especially in Jiu-Jitsu and there was evidence of judo as well the concept is using someone else's strength against them or using some kind of object to defend yourself and knowing how to use that object to defend your selfand I wouldn't even call it just boxing 2 because there's evidence of Street Fighting as well because boxing back in that time did not have the padding so you had strikes that were more like open fingertips because you don't have the gloves so you had more like mouse strikes as a diversion and then you come across with a slap jack or something else along those lines cuz they had many different types of weapons to not just came they also had hand-to-hand weapons like a strapped weapon with a lead ball in it they had the cane which is the most famous one and then they also had cane swords back in that time as well but that was more used by people for ill intent than self-defense but I really don't think you can ever truly get conned multiple martial artist teaching you valid types of ways of defending yourself and then the ways that you use those in a defense situation will change and you will have all these different perspectives and you can ask many famous martial artists out there about Jiu-Jitsu it is more of an intellectual pursuit it is more of a thinking process a lot of educated people like jiu-jitsu it is that same mentality with any other martial art you're going to work with because you have to use what you've learned along with adapting yourself to the situation because you never know what could happen

[@adamclark1972uk]

Baritsu sounds like borotsa (Russian for 'to wrestle').

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Interesting!

[@tarquiniussuperbus21]

I think Jean Joseph Renaud was the better better man to create the vision Barton Wright conceived.

[@wantonmee23]

The whole Trial kinda got derailed with a mess of hearsay evidence, presuppositions, and assumptions about character and characters really. There are only two questions that need to be asked; Was there a system, derived from a synthesis of techniques from multiple areas, that culminated into the style called 'Bartitsu'? Was it any good? The second question is moot if the first question is answered in the negative. So was there, in Barton-Wright's time, a system of combat that was a mix of multiple parts into a wholly unique sum that was called 'Bartitsu.' An example of such a 'Sum' of a whole could be Jeet Kune Do. A system of techniques from other arts that is focused on the concept of 'Intercepting the enemy's attack'. Using, for example, the stop kick from savate. Or Wing Chun trapping moves. I personally say no. Bartitsu really was a marketing mishmash of techniques towards an idea of a synthesized form of combat that never really came to fruition in Barton-Wright's time. The material of the period strikes me as more applications of Jujitsu or stick fighting instead of some unique combination of both. In which case, there is no point asking was Bartitsu good if there was no 'Bartitsu' in the first place. Calling Barton-Wright a conman because of the fact that there wasn't 'Bartitsu' is really an assertion of character that is unfounded, and would hardly be admissible in any debate.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

1)No there wasn't. The evidence is clear. 2) irrelevant. 3) Has a system that fits the criteria for 1 been created since that has been given the name? Yes.

[@f_USAF-Lt.G]

The Martial Arts as a science - must be inclusive, because mindfulness is the necessity of consciousness (consciousness being the necessity of survival)! It's the Art of free motion put to the Laws of the physical world. "If it works - it works"... Doesn't always make it conservative enough nor consistently effective enough to fit the two aforementioned criteria. "Tricks of the Trade" will always have scrutiny on the feasibility of cost, time, safety, and environment - in the consideration of consistency of manufactured integrity... Also how "the Trades" fits into the "Martial" Arts. But, still a good conversation to present, on your part. Especially from the "Money," "Real Value," and "presented opportunities" aspects of arguing...🤓 (Still doesn't justify Rousseau's mostly fanciful fiction of a biography as one of the "Great Biographies" - so to say) The "DRAW" was unmistakable in the conclusion, but thank you for this!

[@catherineannemccloskey-ros9500]

Ballocks and bullshit are my two favorite words in the English language. I can't apply them to Bartitsu today. I would call it a fantasy martial arts. There is a reason that many of the practitioners are people in the Steampunk fantasy community. SCA sword fighting is fun. Fortunately, no one is selling that as martial art. Then came Suffrajitsu were small women took on the coppers who were large and violent men. I think you won and the debate and I think I need to join your Patreon come payday.

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Hard to disagree! As to Patreon I make one chargeable post per month at the end of month for exactly the reasons you mention.

[@catherineannemccloskey-ros9500]

@@EnglishMartialArts I will sign up Friday. So, I should get that post. God and Saint Bridget forgive me. I am giving money to a Limey. LMAO!

[@andrewwilliams4321]

This would be an interesting discussion except I feel like the guy who is against is a bit all over the place. Is his argument that Barton Wright is a crap martial artist, bartitsu had poor marketing, the component parts of of bartitsu don't fit together, modern bartitsu doesn't work as a system of self defense, or something else. I think the argument just needs a bit of focus.

[@paavohirn3728]

Egotists or not, I have to agree on the point about entrepreneurism, that the huge majority of businesses fail regardless of the business idea. It's just capitalism. You need a considerable starting capital and still you're likely to fail a particular business. With enough capital you get retries and might succeed eventually. That's musks and such for you. Of course there are the extreme outliers and exceptions.

[@TheMrPeteChannel]

Well then Jackie Chan perfected it then without realizing it. Using any object as a weapon.

[@catherineannemccloskey-ros9500]

Bartitsu is nearly the same as La Defense le dans rue.

[@rinzler9171]

You should do one about Musashi. Would a modern MMA guy survive a fight against a 70+ death duel master? Doubtful.

[@StonesSticksBones]

Well no, a man with a sword has a huge advantage over an unarmed man Most of his duels weren't to the death, & some that ended that way weren't meant to be

[@AtomicApe13]

I am A Black Belt 🥋 In Brazilian Jiujitsu as well as Hatastan & I must speak on this show, even bringing up Bruce Lee as any form of reality in actual fighting . I live in Las Vegas & have traveled the world with martial arts 🥋 I love the Show but want ti set allot staring replaced here where I can contact you & we can’t talk I have direct lineage from Judi Gene Labell & more 🎵 Hear from you soon mate 💯

[@EnglishMartialArts]

Drop me an email. [e-mail] and we can talk.