Race, Disparities, and Violent Crime | Glenn Loury & John McWhorter | The Glenn Show

[@jaysgamingcorner8539]

As an African American man I have to say, blaming all crime and violent behavior perpetrated by other African Americans on racism is a very patronizing idea. The individual bears some, perhaps not all, of the weight of their choice to do a violent thing or walk a criminal path.

[@hartyewh1]

Certainly each individual is responsible for their actions, but that is an irrelevant point to make when discussing policy. If the question is how to improve a situation then bootstrapping is a mostly worthless approach in itself unless there is a particularly strong cultural moment to cement the message similar to MLK and the civil rights movement. Hard to say if that kind of shared movement will ever take place again or if the kind of black stoicism of even before is something to wish for in modern times. When we see that certain levels of poverty and it's interraction with dense populations causes violent crime and race doesn't influence the amount much we can, if we so choose, pursue non-racial policies to alleviate it. Reasonable economic opportunity and a bit of time is all that is needed to fix most of it. There certainly can be a lack of imagination and a pessimism in the black community about the opportunities available, but no more so than anyone would have in the same circumstances and with the same recent history.

[@Sridarsh]

I think that sometimes hiphop also tends to push the racism narrative a lot. Hiphop is my favourite genre of music too, so im not being biased, and i think when most rappers always blame it on only racism, the people listening also buy into it, like how people get influenced by the media.

[@hartyewh1]

@@Sridarsh It's important to separate racism from systemic racism and the latter seems to be the relevant one to discuss at the moment. Also isn't at the core of hip-hop and rap the expression of struggles too painful to speak of in non-aggressive ways. A kind of exposure therapy to strenghten the mind and dealing with the emotions that come from obvious disadvantage. Not perhaps the healthiest thing especially when things start improving, but perhaps necessary still.

[@Sridarsh]

@@hartyewh1 Systemic racism in certain institutions or systemic racism in the whole culture? yes true, it is one of the core elements of hiphop other than flexing, macho-ness (not talking about mumble rap bcuz... yes) etc... But certain hiphop does help to motivate the individual, like intellectual or spiritual discussions.

[@hartyewh1]

@@Sridarsh I would guess the flexing is also a kind of coping with reality when people know what kind of socio-economic backgrounds they come from and could end up back into. It is freeing to waste and not worry about money. The whole point of the term systemic racism is that doesn't require a single racist person to perpetuate and influence society. It can be cultural as well, but that doesn't require racist people either. In the past for example black skin was harder to film/photograph so that could be a reason why beauty standards could become white aligned without anyone even considering it. I agree that looking for enemies is a waste of time and counter-productive, but that usually goes both ways and understanding is more correct and useful most of the time. Rarely the problem is malicious people, but believing that can make it easier to develop a thick skin in preparation for the difficulties of existence.

[@cassiecaradoc2070]

Thomas Sowell literally wrote an entire book on this called "Black Rednecks and White Liberals" where he explains the culture of violence and its roots in southern white culture and, ultimately, the Scotland Highlands.

[@JGSmith82]

Great book...I guess that describes all of Sowell's books though, doesnt it?

[@iAmEhead]

That's a great essay/book. As a southerner, his depictions of the south had me cracking up. Raised middle class, I've never met these southerners, but I know for sure they exist out there... just need to get my car and drive for hour out of the city in any direction.

[@TheGreatAmphibian]

But white southerners don't shoot each other at the same rate as black people. So the theory doesn't really hold up.

[@itcamefromthedeep]

You should go a step deeper and read Albion's Seed by David Hackett Fischer. It fleshes out the concepts Sowell is drawing on.

[@JGSmith82]

@@TheGreatAmphibian Have you read the book??

[@lydiahowell9126]

I think the answer is a complicated mix of reasons. 1. An environment where violence is "normalized" as a means of conflict resolution. Glenn's comment about children being exposed to lots of violence which is very TRAUMATIZING. 2. Poverty in a larger society context of materialism is emphasized above many other values-- with poverty making the means to gain material goods out of reach. 3.The "BAMF" (Bad Ass M-F") style of Black masculinity that Glenn & John talk about in another edition of the show. 4.Absent fathers replaced by gang-members fulfilling that role. 5. Not enough exposure to alternatives way of living/succeeding---& giving kids chances to see OUTSIDE of their high-poverty/high-crime neighborhoods. I worked in an after-school program in such a neighborhood. The impact of exposing kids to alternatives & exploring what they might do with their lives wa incredible. Two of the 10 kids in my class (that I know of) are in college: one to be a journalist, the other to be an architect. 6. There needs to be far more access to mental helalth to address trauma in kids and adults. As the saying goes: hurt people hurt people.

[@claygilchrist632]

We will never solve these problems if at the very least we can't have an honest discussion about them. Kudos to Glenn and John for openly talking about issues that for some are 100% forbidden.

[@ondolite3789]

This is NOT an honest discussion.

[@claygilchrist632]

@@ondolite3789 Right. It's never an honest discussion when it's about topics people don't want to talk about, right?

[@ondolite3789]

@@claygilchrist632 Not sure what you mean but thx for your input. Lousy and McWorthless are two really sick men.

[@ondolite3789]

@@claygilchrist632 We need an honest discussion about the whyte male existential crisis which is getting worse and worse.

[@christophermclaughlin8917]

@@ondolite3789 You need to Take a Look your Internal process around Kill'Tavious , Blck Goonie Thuggies And The Now Ubiquitous Super Gremlins on Demon Time Rather than your Soft, Smug Arse Playing Revolutionary , Pseudo, Smug and Superior Around, and For Liberal whte Friends, Neighbors, Work mates and Women yo. Further, Check your Denial, Deceit And Delusion Soft Arse.

[@dennisdunnuck1708]

Two very smart men need more like them

[@ondolite3789]

They are jerks. Very sinister.

[@buckchile614]

No doubt that they're smart. However, having a stable family is the easy and obvious take here...It's like suggesting eating your vegetables to a kid...It's a start though. A universal living wage would help towards that

[@ondolite3789]

@@buckchile614 They are not smart. They are just making money by stating obvious populist stuff that few would disagree with. They are very lazy.

[@buckchile614]

@@ondolite3789 Thank you. I was trying to be more diplomatic than usual.

[@thenathanimal2909]

​​@@buckchile614stable family is far more than "a start." It is the foundation of a successful human, erode or damage it and you will almost certainly bring the house the ruin. Plenty of impoverished minorities grow up and thrive. I grew up on food stamps in the 80's. First generation Filipino. Gangs around my neighborhood and in my schools. House got robbed. At one point my Dad had to dig ditches to put food on the table. Later in life when I was an adult he told me things were so tough he almost left us. He didn't and him and my mom lived frugally, bought a big house 15 years after I was born and now that they're retired own another house and travel the world. A solid family is statistically a massive boon to a child. An optimistic, relentless, and can-do attitude will get you very far. Took my dad from a bamboo hut with corrugated steel walls on a tiny Island in the Philippines to having an excellent retirement, owning 2 homes, and traveling the world. His kids are all successful because of his and my mother's character and efforts.

[@ER12]

These guys are needed in today's environment bringing some sense and intelligence to the table awesome video gentleman

[@ondolite3789]

😁

[@georgeclarke5551]

There is a materialism in some of these communities that fuels the greed that motivates many of these crimes

[@christophermclaughlin8917]

And Impulse Control, Lack of Deferred Gratification, And I.Q. below 87.

[@Starclimber]

OMG I love the way John flipped it at the end. That was some chortle-worthy 'in your face' from a master.

[@curtisloftis6003]

Glenn Loury is the man.

[@blueguise23]

Great to see you two.

[@stevenbratz7333]

Drove a big muscular truck for the first time. Felt dominate, powerful and regretfully, even arrogant. Felt like people should get out of my way. I leaned on a white sedan and it gave way. A yellow compact Toyota became humorously synonymous with a can being crushed. It gave way. The only problem was there another big, muscular truck moving fast on the road but not as fast as i wanted. It didn't give way. We both claim our race was innocent in the violent crash.

[@christophermclaughlin8917]

Very Tao

[@katyw8201]

Thank you to you both! Both of your points of view articulate perfectly my political views.

[@melb6888]

I love this show! Thank you. I have felt anger and resentment from others against my race (white). I’m happy to know you all don’t judge me for the sins of my ancestors (who weren’t here yet during slavery but because I’m white … it somehow still is the case). Anyways - fabulous intellectual and fair objective conversations Thank you

[@helenal.7881]

I love yall!!! Thank you for these videos discussing these topics

[@gaylacedarpark3094]

I think you guys hit on the causes. Gang activity and family instability. This is an issue with primarily young men. In the neighborhood I grew up in, low income hispanic, lots of guys I went to school with are dead or in jail. There are gangs in that neighborhood. Young men need role models just like young women. There is a lack of positive male role models in families where the father is absent. In single parent homes there tends to be less stability, less supervision, and how many kids in these homes do you think are read to nightly when they are very little. There is almost no focus on early childhood education. Its a struggle. Even if both parents are present, there may be no priority placed on education. There is desensitization to violence. All these things lead to a life of crime. Stable homes, intact families, early childhood education focus and parenting education assistance to new, young low income parents, could help tremendously.

[@TrillEverything]

Keep going! What causes single family situations? What makes a man not want to marry the mother of his child? What makes a woman not want to marry the father of her child? What is the bedrock of joblessness with Latino & Black young men?

[@gaylacedarpark3094]

@@TrillEverything I grew up in this environment and saw the kids who made it out and those who didn't. It was all parenting. Those who made it out had both parents, the parents owned their home and the parents had expectations for their kids behavior and focus on education. I made it out because I had exposure to those families and I was able to see a different way of being. Also, because my mother didn't have any other family around. She came from a middle class background but ended up poor. She did put a lot of energy into me when I was very little. She read to me and I was very advanced for my age because she gave me such a good head start before I entered school. Some teachers mentored me as did friends parents. Kids need a caring adult to guide them. Time invested in the very early years makes a huge difference in how much a child will struggle in school. I believe that very very early educational advantage can break the cycle of poverty. And that education happens at home. This is why some kids beat the odds. All those kids whose parents did right by them are now grown and married with their own kids and they all moved out of the hood. They have white collar jobs and own their homes. My family was blue collar, we rented, we moved all the time. Definitely some instability, but could have been worse. I see how it could have gone for me. Early education and mentors/role models are why some kids make it out in spite of their family situation. My brothers didn't fare as well. So I got lucky.

[@TrillEverything]

@@gaylacedarpark3094 I grew up in the same 2 part environment between the hood and a two parent household. Many of my friends who so called "made it out" actually stayed in the community after have made some inroads into the American "system" of responsible citizenry. However, this topic was about murder in our community. Many of my friends who made it out still have disdain for our own kind, especially black men. There is great apathy in our community concerning "white collar" job. For most black men...and I include black men with MBA's from Stamford, Harvard, Wharton School, Kellog and the rest of the top universities in America, there is still ambivalence and discomfort going into those spaces on a daily basis. These men hit the Barber shop on Saturday and sit with the brethren who didn't "make it out" and share horror stories of that culture. Although Glenn desire for Black men to take their place in the upper echelon of White Collar America, the average Black American male would much rather NOT be in White White Collar America.. And truthful the culture of Blue Collar America is not a bowl of fruit for American Black males either. It's hardball all day long. Ask Black Cope, Firemen, Contractors and Utility workers. Young black men would rather shoot it out in the streets and play cat & mouse with jail than go downtown into a hostile office building or Fire station. It's way deeper than just fatherlessness.

[@mikerof5070]

Only problem with all that as the actual explanation is that these pathologies of broken homes and absentee fatherhood have been increasing steadily amongst white folks for decades now, and yet their violent crime rate has stayed the same or even decreased in some areas.

[@janso7979]

@@TrillEverything I appreciate your willingness to look deeper in the issue. I agree that it's not something that increased school funding or non-discrimination laws can really address. If I am reading you correctly, you are saying that at a fundamental level the majority of black Americans simply reject and don't want to integrate into mainstream American society, and thus don't engage in the actions which would bring them "success" in that system. I have sympathy for that. I can see how someone would think that American success is a hollow sham, which is more likely to breed unhappiness and neurosis than any true satisfaction or fulfillment. There's some truth in that perspective. But what exactly, in your opinion, do you propose as an alternative for the black community? You said that in the aggregate they are drawn to neither white nor blue collar work. I've worked blue collar jobs. They often suck. It's not particularly pleasant to work a physically demanding job 5 days a week, 8 hours a day (or more), 50 weeks a year, year after year. Whatever hostility the black men you know feel in these environments probably isn't as race-based as they may imagine. If both white and blue collar jobs are ruled out, what's left? Are you proposing a separation from the culture or that the general culture should be radically reorganized to better suit black sensibilities? What would either of those options look like?

[@americanaforever6725]

For most groups the benefits of family, faith and education provide the means of socioeconomic progress while violent criminal behavior creates harsh consequences. Many modern social programs have sought to diminish the returns of these sharply differing outcomes.

[@christophermclaughlin8917]

Yep. Crime creates ,nourishes Poverty MORE Than Poverty Singularly ( as MSM,Academia Regurgitates) Causes Crime.

[@carlbyronrodgers]

Very informative and interesting.

[@PhilHug1]

Based on what I've read from books like Code of the Streets by Elijah Anderson, Killing the Competition by Martin Daly, and, to a lesser degree, The Status Game by Will Storr (highly recommend all three), three of the main reasons are the following: 1. Due to the lack of faith poor black communities have in low enforcement and the justice system (for historical, current and perceived reasons), people in poor black communities turn to self help justice and a culture of honor. To avoid attack from others (because there is a lack of or a low trust in a mediating third party such as the police), people have to present themselves as tough. This is why rappers always talk about how tough they are. They are campaigning for respect and to deter attack. They also feel they need to retaliate if someone actually does attack or insult them because showing weakness will likely lead to others attacking or taking advantage of them. This makes people from poor, urban communities hypersensitive to slights. Many black deaths happened due to a perceived slight. Some actively try to put themselves in a situation to show how tough they are ("when you go to prison, fight the biggest guy so no one tries you"). It's similar to how many Western countries were known to have duels and they were done by the elites of society so this isnt just a poor thing. Andrew Jackson participated in many duels due to sights in honor. Duels died out as elites learned to trust institutions and more decent ways of dealing with matters: calling the cops and sueing. In a world without law enforcement, might makes right. To stop this, there needs to be some way to increase trust between the black community and cops but no clue how to do this. 2. Inequality - Inequality amplifies the situation I outlined in Reason #1. The important theing to remeber here is that human beings are very sensitive to social comparisons. We compare ourselves to those around us almost automatically. All of us have a desire for status, recognition and to avoid feelings of inadequacy. It's not just about how much we have in absolute terms but also how much we have in relative terms. Egalitarian countries usually have cultures that actively try to force everyone to be average so that no one feels inadequate (look up tall poppy syndrome for Australia or the Law of Jante in Scandinavian countries). The reason why status is important is because higher status generally means access to greater resources, sexual opportunities, and greater chances for reproduction (after all, we're animals that evolved to try to maximize our genetic material's chances of survival through us and our offspring). Middle class and rich people have many ways of achieving status and feeling special (money, a nice home and neighborhood, cars, golf and tennis, prestigious jobs titles and schools). Poor people don't have as many ways to distinguish themselves. This is why you see many young black men playing sports, having fancy rims, having fancy clothes, and the respect gained from being seen as tough (meant for protection as outlined in Reason #1 but can act as a form of status too); it's a way of scraping together status to seperate yourself from the other poor people in the community. Also, people lower in socioeconomic status are more sensitive to status differences (look up "last place aversion"). This results in a crabs in a barrel mentality, where those at the lowest rungs rob and steal so that they can keep other people down while raising their status through ill gotten gains. Having low socioeconomic status also makes people even more hypersensitive to slights because it's a threat to what little status the person might already have so a violent response is more likely. The effects of all this might go down if we were able to reduce inequality, give people in poor communities more chances at social mobility, and treat poorer people with more decency instead of seeing them as lazy or welfare queens. Also, men lower in socioeconomic status are more likely to be risk takers. That risk taking is done to try to increase status. This risk taking can't involve dangerous acts such as violence or robbery. It's game theory: if you're at the bottom of the hierarchy, your chances of gaining resources and sexual opportunities, are low. Might as take a risk to shake things up; you have nothing to lose. Inequality explains a big part of the reason why you have more crime in poor black communities than in West Virgina; both are poor but people are equally poor in West Virginia, relatively speaking, while urban areas have higher Inequality. 3. Proliferation of illegally obtained guns. If the guns were harder to get (not sure if this is possible or not), it wouldn't stop the overall behavior, but it would reduce the chances of someone actually dying in an altercation. Not sure how realistic it is to stop people from getting guns off the street though. 4. A few other reasons: -culture: I read a book once that said that culture is basically a defense mechanism for humans to help us survive in our surroundings since we don't have claws or fangs. This goes along with Reason #1 I gave. This self-destructive behavior isn't beneficial to succeeding in society as a whole but it maximizes the chances of achieve status in their local environment (assuming they don't get killed). This culture also gets passed down from generation to generation. -Peer pressure and a sense of belonging: we're social creatures. Having a community is one of the most important things for us. For most of us, we would rather maintain our community or group of friends over being right and rational. Eric Hoffer said it best: "When people are free to do as they please, they usually imitate each other." The reason why we imitate is so we don't get kicked out ofnthe group or, worst, get attacked by our former allies. Keep in mind that we evolve in a hunter-gather society within a tribe. Exile from the tribe likely would have meant death. Our ability to cooperate is a major reason why we're the top animal on Earth. A community can also provide protection; one of the reasons people join gangs. -Oppositional culture: those who feel that mainstream society is not welcome or feel they can't make it in mainstream society may turn to an oppositional culture and see those trying to succeed in the mainstream as "acting white." -Many parents in poor communities are busy working so cannot adequately watch their kids

[@chaucerianfraud6767]

Maybe some day the progressives will finally come and save them.

[@twatmunro]

Your comment (which I think is insightful in some places, dumb and lazy in others) is way too long for me to want to respond to in it's totality, so I'll just respond to the bit about guns. Take a look at gang crime in London some time. Most teenage boys here don't have access to guns -- they're available on the black market, but you have to be earning quite a lot for the investment to be worthwhile. So you have the whole phenomenon of 'cheffing' -- acting like a chef by taking your kitchen knife to another teenage boy and stabbing them repeatedly. These children are overwhelmingly (but not exclusively) black in numbers -- but none of them have had the experience of descending from slaves. They're mostly second and third generation immigrants from Africa or the Carribean.

[@PhilHug1]

@@twatmunro I'll be sure to look into London gang activity. Thanks for the tip. When I wrote the phrase "[stopping the spread of guns] wouldn't stop the overall behavior, but it would reduce the chances of someone actually dying in an altercation," I actually had knives in mind when I said that. Obviously, if someone really wants to kill someone, they will try to do it whether they have a gun or not. I'm not arguing that wouldn't happen. You're going to get murder with knives but since it's harder to kill with a knife (especially multiple victims at once but it can happen) the overall homocide numbers will be lower. If there's a person in front of me who wants to harm me and has a weapon, I like my chances more going against a knife. With knives, you also don't have the issue of stray bullets killing innocent people. Also, with knives, I would imagine that it's a least a little harder to kill the target (thereby dropping to homicide numbers at least a little) if you have to get up close to the target. Plus it would be harder to get multiple victims at once (e.g. drive-bys) since others could run after seeing the first victim. Of course, I haven't looked into London crime as much so could be wrong. Could you tell me what parts you felt were the most lazy or dumb?

[@lydiahowell9126]

You raised a lot of interesting points & made them well. Much food for thought! Thank you.

[@lkd982]

So refreshing to get this conversation, considering the blind lurching of the mainstream diatribes. It would be very interesting to know your views on Thomas Sowell's "Black Rednecks and White Liberals", where in answer to John's question "Why is there greatly more violence caused by Black men", the author says that this is the historical result of the Southern, pre and post Civil War, Black proximity to poor Whites of Celtic stock of a particular provenance; it rubbed off on Black Culture even as many of the Celtic stock rose out of this class and culture. This Celtic stock, was marginalised (in its homeland as well as in the New World); indigent and unskilled in civilised arts; promiscuous, fond of music, drinking and partying; flamboyant, boastful, with a fierce, touchy pride, and extremely and unpredictably pugnacious amongst themselves, not to mention towards outsiders (historically forming a migratory buffer between native Indian populations and white settlement); this culture now forms Trump's Rump.

[@nealorr5086]

I listened to the KZbin video on this theory from one of the chapters of that book. I think it may overestimate the links. American blacks have a hostility to authority outside of copying the poorer southern whites. I haven't read the entire book so I am sure Sowell covers it, but things have gotten worse for inner city blacks since the inception of The Great Society and they've been largely insulated from the mentioned Celts during that period.

[@lkd982]

@@nealorr5086 That's right, the main culprit for Sowell is The Great Society, but the clever thing about this "where did black violence come from" theory is the neat displacement of all the gross stereotypes associated with poor blacks culture on to poor ("Cracker" whites culture, and in particular on to an ancient ethnic/culture division with deep European historical roots. Just fyi, real research has been done ("negative binomial regression"!) and found support for this theory: shorturl.at/lAES4

[@fern10011]

Good one!

[@brianmeen2158]

So damn I guess just blame white people for everything?! Lol

[@ondolite3789]

Sowell is an absolute joke. What does this hypothesis signify? What will happen as a result of this knowledge. It does not even make sense.

[@DavidRexGlenn]

I think Glen hit it on the head. Absentee fathers and the jailing of gang leaders. There's a similar phenomena with adolescent elephant gangs (Role of delinquent young "orphan" male elephants in high mortality of white rhinoceros in Pilanesberg National Park, South Africa doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0055933) attacking rhinos, cars, farmers, etc... because there were no adult males to keep them for entering into musth too early.

[@umwha]

But we have to jail the worst criminals

[@julianfischer2341]

That situation improved after Babar returned to the jungle and taught the other elephants more civilized behaviour.

[@mikerof5070]

Absentee fatherhood among whites has been increasing for decades. Violent crime has not . It actually IS genetic. Unfortunately they refer to it as 'inherently wrong with black people's '. Which automatically keeps them from even considering the obvious.

[@umwha]

@@mikerof5070 But even in whites, being fatherless is related to being more likely to commit crime. So, maybe youre right that the overall white violent crime rate hasnt been increasing, I dont know, but the link between fatherlessness and male violence is still there. Therefore, it follows taht populations with more faithlessness would have more violent crime. I also think other culutral elements may be at play.

[@kaeserd]

Agreed. Absentee fathers and a lack of positive male role models in the neighborhood.

[@our2kidsMR]

If you watch Shaka Senghor's interview with Oprah Winfrey on Super Soul Sunday, he said that in the world he was raised the "abnormal" had been "normalized."

[@robwealer5416]

Sort of reminds me of the Irish dilemma of the late 19th and early 20th century. They were still being rounded up in paddy wagons a hundred years after they were liberated by constitutional amendment.. were overrepresented in crime. I worked in a homeless shelter... the most common tattoos I saw there, in 2020, were the shamrock and the celtic cross. Three guys were nicknamed "Irish". This is 50-60 years after much of the prejudice against the Irish disappeared. Any help they might get now is not based on race, has not been for a while. (ps. Most at this shelter did not come from impoverished backgrounds. )

[@ondolite3789]

Nothing to do with this at all.

[@Liberty2358]

One's actions is the reflection of one's value system. How many of these violent criminals was raised by their single mother?

[@evilchaperone]

Heartbreaking. Here we are in 2022 and fools just offing each other. Then boys only hurting themselves, thier family on their community. If mass incarceration is not acceptable, then what are the alternatives? Unchecked crime or capital punishment.

[@bobbonj1171]

Great discussion! So refreshing! Finally drilling down to the root. I concur with everything being said. Got me thinking..if due to being in gang why such a higher percentage of violence among blacks if compared to Latino gangs? Black population is larger than Latino? But go with percentages and proportionalities, we can determine the causes by categorizing them: due to fatherless, due to domestic violence, etc but it’s a potpourri of everything..hard to dissect and discern. We can go on and on..but it’s healthy that we all can recognize the issues by means of being objective and critical thinking.

[@TheShootist]

i would like to see quantitative data regarding social media use among different demographics.

[@willpower3317]

I’d doubt you’d find any surprises.

[@ezozzie]

John, I have to agree with you on this one. There is an educated group of black people that I've always heard pushing that rhetoric. Most of them are 25-30 years my senior, and have been dealing with overt racism most of their youth into middle age. I don't believe they will ever change and since we have experienced the changes in our lives ,those of us born after 1964 we see some of the differences more than they do. However, I've also been way too influenced by that rhetoric and used it as an excuse of my own shortcomings. Man, it's so funny. One of my elders said I had "limited "views of Black people because I looked at the Cosby show as an anomaly, however, she's always pointing out that New York City schools are different now because of racism. Now,as a teacher of 15 years in the Bronx, she is correct in one sense but there are many families and parents that do not respect or care enough about education to use it as a tool to grow and get out of the negative situations that they're in.

[@Al-ny8dk]

If people always present the issue of absent fathers as a basis for delinquency/prison rates/murders then there should be a little bit of evidence to back it up. Surely the murder rate should somewhat mirror the proportion of fatherless families regardless of colour if correct - and this should be a well known and driving fact for social policy. Pay more family support to united families.

[@christophermclaughlin8917]

More Salient Issue: Cultural Internal Locus of Control vs. Cultural External Locus of Control. Blcks have Willfully, and Ignorantly allowed Themselves to Become and Remain Infantilized.

[@Star-hg1kt]

Charles Murray never said that or alluded to thinking such a thing about blacks.

[@mikem668]

Not only doesn't anyone know why there's so much violence, the nature of the black on black violence is so bad in terms of disregard for others, people who are sympathetic to the plight of the black community don't even know what to call it. The narrower question of why they kill way more blacks is because everyone else tends to stay away. John should know because he grew up in a mixed neighborhood, nested between one of the wealthiest neighborhoods and one of the worst. I had a white friend who got his iPhone stolen on a bus. He followed the kid and eventually called the police. He waited for the cops outside a mosque. When the cops showed up they said, What are you doing here? You trying to get killed?

[@TrillEverything]

Black people who live in the Black community know exactly why there are so many murders. Sadly, the one who has spoken truth about it is Louis Farrakhan and the Nation of Islam who have actually gone into prisons and transformed black gang members into working citizens in the Black community. However, because of Farrakhan's tough stance on the white community, it is hard for most to hear the message and absolutely not spread it. Again, the Black community has heard this message for over 60 years and absolutely knows what the issues are.

[@mikem668]

@@TrillEverything I'm a pragmatist on Farrakhan. I don't have to agree or approve of everything someone says. But it's not clear to me what his message is. I assume it includes discipline and finding some larger meaning within the black community. And who is most? Most blacks?

[@TrillEverything]

@@mikem668 Farrakhan's and the NOI 's theory is that Black people were taught to hate themselves during slavery and into Jim Crow. This is emblematic in wearing the name of your slave master daily. Thus if you hate yourself, then you will hate people that look like you...moreover, you will easily kill that person, as it is easier to kill a representation of you than to actually kill yourself. And this is spot on. Thus the mission of the NOI was to turn the Black Man into a God...(make him supreme) so he would see value in himself and not harm those around him as he saw all blacks around him as also potentially supreme. (Representations of God...(himself).

[@christophermclaughlin8917]

Proximity. Anyone regardless of Skin Hue and hair texture Is Open target and is Fair mark For the Pookies, Dey-Deys Quan'Tavious' , Kill'Tavious' and Super Gremlins on Demon Time Now Kickin' it and lurking In Every Major City. Now these Phugglettes Know the Cops' Hands are Gloved And The Prosecutorial System is now More WOKE. Ugh.

[@arawilson]

The radical critique of anti-Blackness *defines* this outcome of disproportionate violent crime as Racism. The focus though is less on that but on heightened policing, and the criminalization of Black men/people.

[@fsilber330]

It seems to me that a century ago African American strivers hoped to enter American society. The efforts were frustrating, because so many whites were not receptive. And some of the efforts were probably undignified, like trying to straighten hair to look whiter. Beginning in the 1960s there a rejectionist separatist movement gained popularity, which which black people began to emphasize differences, and to create differences just to be different. Names, clothes, etc. It's healthy for black people to reject shame over having different hair. But I think the drive to take pride in differences (and to shame black people for not doing that) has become counterproductive. There's even a related psychological syndrome -- "Oppositional Defiant Disorder." It's to the point that many black youths are ashamed to exist in any subordinate position to a white person -- though every normal apprenticeship and entry-level position assumes subordination to other. Some black youths feel shame in obeying a teacher, doing homework, etc. I suspect that for some, being told to obey the law and refrain from crime carries that same resentment of "You can't tell me what to do" (or what not to do). Some may even view playing the game by the rules (e.g. refraining from crime) as "acting white." The only solution I can see is from black leadership, because the young men who have these feelings are certainly not going to be receptive to white people telling them to change.

[@christophermclaughlin8917]

Alert Whte countries Changed Their Racist Policies Mostly Going practically 180° to 'accommadate' and 'compensate'. NOW it's not About anyone's Skin colour, Hue or "Hair Style or Texture" It's about an Emboldening, An Entitled Mindset, It's about Disproportionate Abhorrent Behavior From (towards) the Teachers to The Transit Riders, Towards School custodian To the Cops.....ECT ECT.

[@chaucerianfraud6767]

I think dismissing the cultural argument is folly. Change will only ever come within.

[@rashadabdulazeem5387]

Gun violence in the black community, the readily availability of guns in the black community and the high homicides rates of black men is a national crisis, but very few of our leaders are addressing it. Black teens, some as young as 12 are carrying guns and committing violent crimes and even murder. Yet, our focus as always is on racism. Racism is the default when we are reminded of our personal responsibility or own failure to address and solve our problems that sit squarely on our shoulders. White people shouldn't be invested in solving these problems when we refuse to be invested or even talk about these problems ourselves. Crime and gun violence has become a cultural problem in our community and not such much a social one, and that wasn't always the case. Why do we glorify gun violence, we need cultural filters that filter out those culturally influences that hurt us, yet some culturally influences wink at or even encourage gun violence. Yes, we have free speech, but it can have deadly consequences. We have gatekeeps in our community, the real "uncle toms", who stand guard, ready to attack and shutdown any discussion of personal responsibility or any discussion that we need to be more invested in solving our problems.

[@erichamilton8952]

The demand for racism far, far exceeds the supply.

[@thezenlu]

Impoverished communities have the same problems, despite race. Money needs to be put into these communities to make them better spaces. Infrastructure projects, and community outreach, cops on patrol that actually interact and acknowledge the humanity of the people they serve. Went over by 16 words, but didn't focus on race, because the issue is civic/environmental.

[@Levelity]

I think I have an analogy that would depict the averages persons level of prejudice. When you see someone of a different race it’s like seeing someone wearing a ball cap with a team that is not “your team” but not a rival or even in your conference. A team that is stirs almost no emotional or competitive response. Their humanity is still very much in tact and although they are technically the “out” group they don’t provoke any response, but more just an acknowledgement.

[@ondolite3789]

Yes, but this does not speak of systemic racism.

[@seaslob2820]

Wow! When did John McWhorter learn how to read Charles Murray's mind? Incredible! Just LOL

[@Mr.Witness]

PHILOSOPHY. Ayn Rand and Leonard Peikoff explained this its the dominant philosophy of our culture that explains it.

[@regiondta4071]

Poverty, single parent homes, mothers having multiple children with different absentee fathers, normalized violence in the culture. Young black men commit approximately 50% of the homicides, burglaries and violent assaults in the U.S. yet they account for roughly 6% of the population. 74% of the inmates in prison grew up without a father or stable family home.

[@seanmahoney2755]

Why not just ask the people who behave in extreme anti social ways, why they do it? We could listen to what they say and perhaps glean some information from that. Ask them while they are surrounded by their peers and ask them when they are all alone. Just ask them. Ask them why?

[@itcamefromthedeep]

According to the research, when you convince people that they have no free will, they become more likely to engage in antisocial behavior. Telling people that their life chances are brutally circumscribed by oppressors would, I expect, have a similar effect.

[@nealorr5086]

This is what drives me mad about Sam Harris. Sam will say that maybe IQ and ethnicity should not be studied because it achieves no good end... and then he runs around saying there's no such thing as "free will". Total idiocy.

[@glennwatson3313]

If we are not allowed to ask then we will never get an answer.

[@explrr22]

Let me take my Steel-man approach... I suspect most have also heard reference to root causes: Historical and current longstanding depravations and demonization produces environmental factors. Environmental factors, and their persistence, has cultural effects. Culture is influenced by elements from preceding and current environment and culture. There's also an element of randomness in formation of both environmental and cultural expression... human society and nature is chaotic and often has no direct or iron rule essential causation from a single or small set of factors. That leaves room for historic racism and persisting social structures to have influences. Therefor the circumstances of racism can be a nudging cause of current social conditions. The historical circumstances of racism towards black people in this country is somewhat unique and so is the conditions in large portions of todays black population. Therefor we might strongly suspect that the two are related even if the mechanism isn't clear. Note: This also suggests there's not a "direct" or "certain" causation... It also suggests the racisms real and/or imagined "might" or "might not" be having primary or even significant effects. It seems to me the responsible questions are over our assessment of the factors of influence, the power of their influence, and the level of confidence appropriate in such assessments. IMHO.. hard stuff! Similar and I think more important responsible questions exist over how we might influence and alter future trajectory. I am suspicious that current displays of high certainty levels are more related to desire for power, than levels of real certainty.

[@peacehappyb237]

What are Glen and John doing to help the underprivileged Black people? Are their messages reaching those people?

[@papa_pt]

70% of children born out of wedlock is fucking nuts

[@TheGreatAmphibian]

Except that it's true of e.g. Sweden. No violent crime problem there.

[@papa_pt]

@@TheGreatAmphibian yeah I read France has more couples agreeing to civil solidarity pacts aka PACS rather than marriage which at least partly explains how/why their rate continues to increase. Not sure if Sweden has anything similar

[@freddyt55555]

​@TheGreatAmphibian "Out-of-wedlock" and "absentee father" are two entirely different things. I would bet large sums of money that the latter isn't that prevalent in Sweden, whereas it's the norm in the African-American culture.

[@rustynails68]

Is it that way everywhere in the world?

[@caseybrown4360]

Glenn and John both know the answer as to why that statistic is so. We’ve been rewarding squalor of behavior. We’ve been paying black folks(and of course all races in the US)to chip away at the foundation of the nuclear family. It is undeniable that fatherless homes is the main reason. Then rewarding behavior that is conducive to these outcomes. Until both of these gentlemen quit trying to take away personal responsibility from black people we will continue to see this and worse. I’m not saying it’s only Glenn and John but their voice is quite loud right now so they have to step up.

[@evanvarns4785]

I don't know that it's specifically fatherless homes that are the main reason; I think you hit it on the head when referring to rewarding squalor of behavior (great expression, by the way). That squalor of behavior takes many forms, but at the root, it's not holding people responsible for their own behavior. Whether anyone wants to accept it or not, regardless of the circumstances into which we were born (and raised), each of us has a moral responsibility (moral, not necessarily religious - there are universal morals which transcend religion) to ourselves and to all creation to transcend those circumstances to become better versions of ourselves - to be the leaders (parents) we wish we'd had. It isn't racism, or sexism, or ageism, or any other "ism" that's holding anyone (including myself) back - what's holding us back is our willingness to accept excuses from ourselves...period.

[@caseybrown4360]

@@evanvarns4785 the fatherless homes theory is quantifiable and has been studied quite thoroughly. For example in the roughly 100 years from the end of slavery to the signing of the civil rights act 75-80% of black families were 2 parent homes and the violent crime rate of black men was lower than that of white men. Also information has been gathered on all violent offenders and it is a fact that roughly 85% of them come from single parent(fatherless) homes. There may well be other factors but it’s evident that fatherless homes ranks higher on the list of predictors than any other litigating factors.

[@evanvarns4785]

@@caseybrown4360 - I didn't say that fatherless homes weren't a problem; what I did say was that they aren't the primary problem - they're merely a symptom of the larger problem, which is our own failure to hold ourselves and each other accountable for our own thoughts and actions.

[@jimyoungblood1687]

We can cite the factors which led people to undesirable behaviors and violence all we want, but despite the factors, each human being is still responsible for their words, behaviors and the actions. Ultimately the individual is to blame. We tend to place blame on the factors that shaped his/her thinking and emoting, but the individual actually bears the responsibility. This is a message people need to hear - that even through manipulation, victimization, legacy, lies, bribes, etc, we ourselves bear the burden of our choices. In saying this, I also recognize that we can certainly work on the externals and factors that push people to make poor choices.

[@nealorr5086]

That's not how any of this works. My dog kills squirrels and cats in the back yard, and he loves dogs and people. I'd prefer he just chase off the cats. He's not a criminal because I haven't taught him not to kill cats. If you grow up in a society when things like gang violence are considered appropriate, then you perpetuate gang violence when it is your turn to do so. Judging people who haven't had your upbringing with the standards of your upbringing is as dumb as the people who want to tear down George Washington's statue because he owned slaves.

[@jimyoungblood1687]

@@nealorr5086 Comparing human behavior to animal behavior is not helpful or apropos. According to most wisdom texts and the Bible, every person has been imbued by a conscience, an objective means of judging right from wrong. They can choose to extinguish their conscience, but that is neither helpful to themselves or to society. Those same wisdom texts, Plato, Aristotle and a whole host of philosophers and wise people (along with God) say that you are responsible for all your thoughts, words, actions and behaviors. Having external factors does not excuse any person from their responsibility.

[@dnifty1]

There is no doubt that a lot of this violence is based on internalized self hate along with generational poverty and inequality which has never been addressed in this society. But the bigger issue is how do these children who are supposedly so poor and downtrodden able to get their hands on so many illegal weapons and narcotics when none of those things come from their community? In fact most of those things come from thousands of miles away in other countries or in states and regions far away from the scene of these crimes. Obviously that goes way beyond something a 14 year old kid in the projects can organize and sustain on their own, yet somehow these stories about crime conveniently ignore how this pipeline exists to aid and abet these children committing these crimes. Not to mention the fact you got a whole sector of the entertainment industry making billions of dollars off of selling music deliberately designed to promote such violent behaviors among these children as if that is a "cultural norm" that they are supposed to live by. Who runs these companies and who makes all the profits off promoting such violence and how come these companies are allowed to profit off such blatant promotion of violence for our children. No other group in America or anwhere else has any kind of entertainment "culture" like this, yet again, when these discussions come up that is conveniently ignored. There are many dimensions to this situation and many more that feed into this as well, such as how the FBI, ATF, local police and other groups are supposedly so "tough on crime" never are able to figure out the hows and whys of this violence even though it is obvious if you think about it. If there is a multibillion dollar pipeline into these communities for guns and drugs but no multi-billion dollar pipeline of education and investment for normal businesses, jobs and other forms of economic development then you know that there is a systemic issue. Not to mention you have the whole history of various CIA and other government programs where they deliberately used drugs in experiments on youth and others which often involved violence and mental instability. Unfortunately a lot of these left vs right discussions often stay at a very superficial level and never really get to these other layers of problems that can and should be addressed. However, one thing that these discussions expose is hypocrisy that is a the core of this country's history, because on one hand a group of people is expected to feel bad and be responsible for violent behaviors, while another group that has also and continues to promote violence on an even larger scale NEVER takes responsibility for anything and there is always some excuse of justification.

[@christheprophet6583]

Good points.

[@glennwatson3313]

White boys have the same access to guns as Black boys, maybe more access. My son had his own rifle when he was in elementary school. He is NRA trained. He has been in a few fights but he never shot anyone or used a gun in anger. And you are wrong in another area. There is a multi-billion dollar pipeline for education into the inner city. Those inner city schools were built with outside money, most of it coming from white people. Your CIA conspiracy is nonsense.

[@professor9347]

The problem is the significant number of broken homes that as a collective make up a broken community.. Race has nothing to do with it. A certain race of people just happens to be more entrenched in it.

[@kimjohnson8471]

The problem couldn't be indemic to being black. These issues with violence occur far less in those who immigrate from The Caribbean and African countries. There's even a saying in our communities "Works harder than a Jamaican, Nigerian"! 😃 😀 😄 😁 🤣

[@christophermclaughlin8917]

That's a Changing As N'Fassa hangs out With Q'aunTrell and POOKIE From 'da Block yo.

[@amosjsoma]

I think a big part of the reason there is so much Black on Black crime in our large cities is because the Democrats who run all of these cities do absolutely nothing to stop the crime and improve the living conditions of the people who are forced to live in those ghettos. The first thing they should do is root out the drug and gang crime. That would go a long way toward assuring a mother that her kids will return from school alive and the end of the day. They should also spend more money to improve the schools including trade schools for those of us who aren't college material. A lot could be done if only someone cared. The vast majority of those kids don't want to grow up and get into crime to survive. I'm sure they would much rather learn a trade so they had a skill to offer an employer.

[@brianmeen2158]

The democrats have done the exact opposite of what they should do- they are getting weak on crime instead of tougher

[@ondolite3789]

Rubbish 🗑!

[@jaklinhyde]

This is the issue ppl keep passing the blame instead of putting on the individual themselves, I’m a black guy who grew up in a deadend drug infested neighborhood in a major city. I made no difference what political party was in charge I took control of my own life and forged my own path to success. As black ppl we can’t sit around waiting for a certain person to get in office and placate our success and failures on that. My democrat city spends 100’s of millions on law enforcement every year but criminals are going to be criminals and they alone need to be held accountable for their actions

[@lawman3966]

We should consider the impact of shortened telomeres in fatherless boys as a potential cause of antisocial conduct later in life.

[@keatssamson9382]

But what percentage of middle class Black men are violent and engage in murder? Isn't this largely a Black working class men phenomenon?

[@jones2277]

Yes, good point, but where would you situate rich black celebrities? the money didn't come with class.

[@keatssamson9382]

@@jones2277 Wtf??

[@jones2277]

@@keatssamson9382 what are you confused about? you think rappers prefer civil discourse?

[@hamm0155]

I don’t agree that it is trivial to cite culture as explanation. I’m not saying this is completely right for this question, but culture in terms of expectations of what is done is a real thing. If you look at cultures around time and place, the trends and practices are not all just effects of economics and systems and circumstances. It is also due to just what people regularly do and expect. Pre-modern European aristocrats fought in duels and that wasn’t just because of their economics, family relationships, or financial incentives or whatever. It was part of the culture of expectations.

[@overtonpendulum2071]

The answer is simple but you can't say it on YT.

[@somerandomhomeboy]

C'mon now every honest observer of this daily mayhem knows it s deeply rooted in self hate and low self worth. Having a hard-working father (working full time) in one home makes no difference in this landscape and would probably get killed.

[@Psych9589]

The start of this increase crime in the black communities has a lot to do with racism but the maintenance of this problem is less on racism and more on the individuals. It is not “culture” it is environmental and social that is causing the continuation of the violence in the black communities.

[@frankgradus9474]

Personal Responsibility: The Ultimate Freedom, Zuby, YT

[@searose6192]

9:20 But why are black youth seeing this when they are young? And when white and Asian youth see this, does it translate into equal levels of violence?

[@billybarnett2846]

I don't get the argument that racism makes somebody a criminal. Committing crime or acts of violence is a choice.

[@newlexican]

I'm not sure I agree calling attention to culture is just a relabeling if we can precisely identify cultural values we would like to see change. I won't pretend to be particularly knowledgable on this issue. But a consistent refrain I hear from gang members interviewed on TV is violence is a tool they use to "demand" respect from those who don't offer it freely. Being respected is paramount to them. I wonder what else might change if we could wave a magic wand and change the culture from one that emphasizes being respected to one that emphasizes being an individual *worthy of respect*. There are so many interwoven issues in these communities that they come together in one massive, tangled knot. Attempts to loosen one loop tighten two others. If there's a loop that can be pulled that won't cinch down any others, I suspect it's "culture." A couple tugs could start unraveling the whole mess. At least... that's my hope.

[@janinedalbey2448]

Where is Thomas Sowell in your discussion 🤔

[@drandrewm]

I find it interesting that when it comes to police shootings Glenn and John prefer actual numbers and likelihood, but for homocides they are fine with comparable rates by race and overrepresentations. Given the actual number of murders in the US each year, I can frame their question this way. Why is it that 99.9% of all blacks WILL NOT BE murdered, whereas 99.99% of all whites WILL NOT BE murdered in a given year? This is a perfectly legitimate way to read the data, yet expressed in likelihood seems like a ridiculous question. Here is what we actually know. 1. While the 2,600 black on black homocides (and 3,000 white homocides) per year are tragic, and should be eliminated if possible, the likelihood of being murdered is still near zero regardless of race. Note: these are murders were the race of the perpetrator is known, not all homicides. 2. The homocide numbers for blacks are concentrated in certain areas in a few cities. 3. Much of this is young black men under 30. 4. Much of this is due to drug and gang violence. Having grown up in an extremely poor area in a city with a relatively high murdered rate, "not getting killed" required absolutely no effort because (a) gangs were exclusive and (b) drug connects were few and far between. So I perfectly understand why some would refuse to frame this as a "Black" problem.

[@janso7979]

The numbers you cite are incorrect. There were more than 20,000 homicides in the US in 2021. In any case, homicides don't occur in a vacuum. They are correlated with a high number of other criminal and antisocial behaviors which are much more widely pervasive in society than the relatively rare occurence of homicide.

[@drandrewm]

@@janso7979 I am using the 2018 FBI murder data where the race of the perpetrator is also known, given their focus on within race crime. Should have been more clear about that. However, even 9,000+ is still less that 1/10% of 48 million black population. My point is murder is a low probability event. However, I'll add the data disclaimer.

[@drandrewm]

@@janso7979 I wasn't saying that crime was not an issue, my point was that using "black" pathology, culture, evolution, genetics, etc. to explain what 99% of black people never experience seem a bit much in my opinion.

[@janso7979]

@@drandrewm 99% of the black population , thankfully, will not personally experience murder, but that doesn't mean that many of their lives aren't radically affected by living in an environment where criminal attitudes are pervasive. There are major sections of many big cities which are basically no-go zones for whites. I've literally had my car surrounded by a groups of young males for simply getting lost and going down the wrong street. I've never had anything close to that experience going into a neighborhood of any other ethnicity. And that's only one example of my personal negative interactions.

[@janso7979]

@@drandrewm I've also been to Mexico City, and I'll grant you that it was also sketchy. I've also walked around drunk in dubious areas of Juarez. Still doesn't compare to Atlanta or West Philadelphia. Glenn is actually right, though, in citing the data. The data on infer-raseal rhyme (censors) are evident. If you are going to claim that 10k black omisides are meaningingless in the big picuture, then so are the number of police shootings. Especially when over half of police shooting involve white perps.

[@jameshenrymusic]

It is worth considering that culture has an effect on brain development via natural selection. In some world cultures, violence is more of an asset than others and therefore would be a positive trait for reproduction. Just as with other cultures differing degrees of subordination and conformity would ensure your genes passed on within the culture. Just as certain dog breeds are bred for behavioral traits, culture breeds humans for certain traits, which become imbedded within the genes of its people.

[@christophermclaughlin8917]

Yep. Look at Ashkenazi American and British Jewish Descended Culture Religious ,Secular or Otherwise . A lot of Cribbage, Chess, Scrabble , Adult Dialogue, and Reading At an Early Age Didn't, Doesn't Hurt.

[@umwha]

I’m partial to Sowells explanation. Some American blacks use to be religious and got married. Some adopted a southern hill billy culture . As modernity arrived,the previously rural hill billy blacks migrated to cities. Meanwhile, the non hill billy blacks were doing great. However then the government made a new benefit scheme that gave single mothers more money. This incentivized women to have babies out of wedlock, ‘marrying the government’. Thus, women didn’t need to be marriageable and neither did men. Good men became less culturally valuable, and sexy dominant men became more interesting, since stability is no longer necessary. More kids without dads are born in each generation, until the culture was totally degenerated. Then as more males are arrested (rightly because they commit crime) that makes the remaining males more valuable and they have access to a disproportionately high amount of women, making them able to be womanizers. This narrative is supported, by the fact that in many measurable values, back people in America were worse in the 90s than they were in the 20s.

[@jones2277]

there's no evidence to support the welfare explanation. black marriage was in trouble when anti-miscegenation laws were struck down. that is when black men started abandoning their families for greener pastures, especially elite black men. black men in celebrity culture are a great example of this. and guess who looks up to and tries to emulate the style of the rappers and athletes?

[@umwha]

@@jones2277 Hmm. Well that can be an element too. Black men started to marry white women. This left many black single mothers. The single mothers did not rush to marry someone, nor did their families rush to arrange a marriage for them, as might've been done in the past, instead, with government benefits, being a single mother was viable, and in some ways simpler than dealing with men. It was also feminist.

[@TrillEverything]

Placing everything in racial terms can sometimes confuse an audience who is not willing to look deeper and wider for answers. Case in point: NYC had 318 murders in 2019 Moscow had 7,212 murders in 2019 Moscow is 2/3 larger in population at around 15mm citizens, but that still does not account for the wide disparity. So if we look at Russia one could leap to say something foolish like "whites are the most violent humans". Additionally, Glenn and John like to point at the education and work ethic of Caribbean blacks. However, Jamaica has the 3rd largest murder "rate" in the world. Question: If we look at the murderers of Blacks in the US, how many trace their roots to the Caribbean, like many rappers? And how many trace their roots to the South? How many of the Black murderers trace their roots back to the North prior to 1864? We may find that black who trace being free before 1864 have less violent histories or a murder rate that is almost nil. But it's not convenient to sparce Black ethnicity...or even white ethnicity when grabbing data...when speaking racial dogma. This may coincide with Sowell. Throwing everything under race does not help answer some of these questions that need deeper nuance and research

[@janso7979]

7,212 was the number of murders for all of Russia in 2019, not the number of murders in Moscow.

[@TrillEverything]

@@janso7979 I was looking at Moscow, but they may have just used national data. Even still Russia's murder rate has recently gone way down to 4.7. It was far into the double digits 10 years prior. My point remains. I'd suspect that these murders were from non blacks, especially in cities such as Kyzyl, which is considerable dangerous. Thus, are whites more violent because the murder rate in Russia is high?

[@janso7979]

@@TrillEverything I wrote a long reply to you but I see it got deleted (rather than merely SBed) by YT. Perhaps you'll still be able to see it in your notifications. Anyway, it's no use trying to fight the YT censors, so I won't write it again.

[@drandrewm]

I agree, trying to explain a highly tragic, low probability outcome, concentrated in certain areas, along racial lines takes away from the issue. Without clear answers, there is a tendency to see this behavior as innate to a specific race, as opposed to causal circumstances.

[@blazayblazay8888]

GLENN IS MUCH MORE THOUGHTFUL JOHNS JUST TRYING TO DEFEND THE CONCLUSION HES COME TO LONG AGO

[@HoldemCallfield]

I DISAGREE

[@blazayblazay8888]

@@HoldemCallfield k

[@chaucerianfraud6767]

I agree. He just wants to avoid blaming his own people. Change only comes from within. The progressives are never going to fix this.

[@jones2277]

that's always how it goes with these two. John always has ulterior motives.

[@twatmunro]

@@jones2277 -- I don't know that I'd call it ulterior motives. John is just a bit lazier and hasn't taken as many red pills as Glenn has. He's sometimes infuriating as a consequence, but his willingness to pose this question -- something you'll NEVER see a white commentator pose (for fear of being Charles Murrayed out of existance) shows that he's probably operating in good faith and isn't a complete moral coward.

[@fsilber330]

No, it's not inherent in the race -- according to the Norse sagas, 1,200 years ago blond blue-eyed men in present-day Norway were _extremely_ violent. Saying it's culture does not explain it, but it does give a _direction_ for seeking understanding. The question is why so many African American men have such a violent culture. You can cite the imprisonment of gang leaders, but then one must ask why so many young black men and teens look to criminals for leadership. The late senator / sociology professor Daniel Patrick Moynahan predicted this problem 57 years ago (and his theory suggests the problem will spread to white youth in the coming generations). Before the problem can be identified and solved, one must decide that solving the problem takes precedence over protection of black self-esteem. If your self-esteem is contingent on believing that black people are fine just the way they are -- then black people will likely remain just the way they are. If your chosen solution requires white people to behave contrary to their _individual_ self-interest, then your solution will not work. For example, white people don't want black children to attend failing schools, but it's a higher priority for them that their own children attend good schools. They're not going to agree to "average things out." White people don't want black people to have to live apart from everyone else, but it's a higher priority for them to live where they won't have to put up with a lot of thieves. White businessmen do not want black youth to be devoid of opportunities, but it's a higher priority for them to ensure that they get the best service for the money from their employees that they can.

[@memeticist]

The historical prevalence of violence does not vitiate the potential for a genetic component to differential ethnic propensities toward violence in the present day. In Europe and East Asia during the late middle ages an early modern era capital punishment was intensely employed. This would have served as selection mechanism against allelic variants that had a high impact on aggressive behavior. That is a potential explanation for why there is such stark differences in the ethnic prevalence of allelic variants of MAOA.

[@fsilber330]

@@memeticist "The historical prevalence of violence does not vitiate the potential for a genetic component to differential ethnic propensities toward violence in the present day." I agree. But if genes that increase violent tendencies are more common among people of one race than another, that would probably be due not to the racial differences themselves but rather due to different historical selective pressures in the ancestors of the two populations. Membership in a race might be correlated with an increased tendency to inherit those genes but would not have caused the increased tendency. And you could define subsets of both races, such that for each race, some subsets had a lot of those genes and other subsets had fewer.

[@memeticist]

@@fsilber330 More or less correct. There was likely no differences in the selection pressure to increase the likelihood of aggressive behavior in any population. But there seems to have been a different historical mediate pressure to decrease that prevalence thus far. Aggression is often a successful strategy until there are sufficient institutional controls to reduce it. Of course, it is the case that only a subset of a population will have relatively low prevalence allelic variants. In the case of the MAOA high risk variants it is roughly; 6% for blacks, 1-2% for whites, and >1% for East Asians. Furthermore, if society wanted to reduce the prevalence of some of the more unpleasant allelic variants, it need not rely on such brutal mechanisms as capital punishment in modern times. That is what technology is for. But we do need to acknowledge reality if we are to ultimately contend with that and Glenn has stated that fact many times.

[@TheGreatAmphibian]

The sagas were entertainment. They had as much to do with real life as John Wick does.

[@Nico-c3c]

I think it is culture. Look at how many rich black men end up dead or in jail. You can take the man out of the ghetto but sometimes you cannot take the ghetto out of the man.

[@misscharmcarm]

Discuss why child molestation is so much more prevalent among whites.

[@theshadow5800]

Two guys racial profiling…breathtaking!

[@kkampy4052]

My money is on the lack of good male role models. The "men" seen in these communities are generally not the best of role models, little education, no job, moving product etc. Look at the older males, they dress like the kids, listen to the same music etc. I equate it to the Lord of the Flies, 16 year old kids raising 16 year old kids. The mothers are to blame for not selecting a mate carefully and letting their kids run the street.

[@jones2277]

don't blame the women for the men's mess. women have to pick from the men available to them. would you expect Appalachian women to marry men from Wall Street? No. you yourself said there's a lack of good men to choose from.

[@evanvarns4785]

@@jones2277 - the women aren't responsible for the men "available to them" being losers, but they ARE responsible for their OWN decision (when it's voluntary, of course - rape victims are never to blame for the acts of the rapist) to have sex with these losers, perpetuating the loser culture by 1) effectively telling men they can get away with such behavior and 2) carrying it on for yet another generation by bringing a child into the same unhealthy environment. If the men "available" to a woman are not solid husband/father candidates, don't have sex with them - it really is that simple. As important a part of the human experience as sex is, the overwhelming majority of the time, it is a conscious choice - NOT a necessity. Unless and until better behavior is demanded of males (and females, for that matter) in ANY demographic, this will continue. And I wholeheartedly disagree with the notion that there is a lack of "good people" of any gender/orientation from which to choose; they're everywhere - one just has to be willing to 1) find them no matter where they may be, 2) hold oneself to a high enough standard of behavior to make oneself attractive to such a person, and 3) do the HARD work of developing a relationship that will provide a healthy environment (in every sense) in which to raise a child...that means actually RAISING the child, not dropping him/her off at school at age 5-6 and expecting to get them back twelve years later as educated, civilized adults.

[@jones2277]

@@evanvarns4785 you are effectively saying that one class of women (straight, unambiguously black women) must forfeit the possibility of ever having love, relationships, companionship, intimacy, marriage, sex, family, and kids. a black girl should know from childhood that her destiny is to be alone. that's not realistic, and frankly, it's unethical. in every demographic, the dating pool is from the people who are in closest proximity to you. most US cities are still very segregated, especially if the people are poor or working class. the woman who is ringing up your groceries at your local grocery store isn't going to find her mate in Silicon Valley. It will be Leon from down the street or Ted with whom she went to school. those are her options. even black women who do the very thing black men criticize--getting an education and improving their situation economically--are often unable to find black men on par with them. the fact is black women have a shitty supply to choose from. and all of this is to get around the obvious fact that everyone's lives would be improved vastly if black men just stopped with the stupidity and became better men. it's ridiculous that they spend most of the hours in their day thinking of ways to kill each other off and wreak havoc in their own communities. white men don't even have to do anything but stand by and watch. i agree with Glenn and John that the activisim on policing is wasted.

[@evanvarns4785]

@@jones2277 - I said nothing of the sort. Though there are factors that affect our environment, the simple fact of the matter is that we get what we limit ourselves to finding; anything else is an excuse. I do agree with your second point, however, about how people's lives would be improved; that said, I'd expand it to say that everyone's lives would be vastly improved if each of us stopped with the stupidity and became better people - myself included.

[@mikelogan3816]

If you can't explain something call it. That's what a lot of these people seem to do.

[@mikelogan3816]

Just call it racism

[@Angelthedog]

Look to a man you guys respect, Thomas Sowell, who compares black Americans, largely Southern originally, to certain white groups from England that ended up in the South.

[@reverandglenn]

Does anyone ever want to address the culture of rap music? These rappers are artists who lived a life of shit, but they express that now through their music rather than with guns and knives and violence. I don't believe anyone of them are advocating gun violence or violence of any kind, they are merely writing their documentary through lyrics and music. There is a problem with those who wish to mistakingly emulate in their lives to be "cool" what these rappers are describing as actual pain. Their liberation is through telling their story as artists. Hey, this is just my opinion. Wtf do I know? I just know that people are people and there is no glamourizing of that lifestyle by rappers.The only glamourizing is by the media and that gets pushed down to these kids. I only wish they could see it as I see it; an avenue to release the shit and abuse and pain they endured, only to come out on the other side. So many don't make it past 25, let alone to the other side.

[@jones2277]

why do you ALWAYS default to "black PEOPLE"? It is specifically black MEN. you have to be honest if you want to have a sincere discussion. stop dragging black women into your dysfunction.

[@Crossa]

John at first said “Black Men”💁🏽‍♂️

[@jones2277]

@@Crossa that was a Freudian slip. for the rest of the conversation, he defaulted to black people. I've been watching for a long time, and i notice that he's not comfortable discussing black issues if they specifically are about black men.

[@drandrewm]

More to the point...young black men in very particular neighborhoods in select US cities.

[@jones2277]

@@drandrewm i'm obviously not saying ALL black men, but it is disingenuous to try to say it's only limited to a few regions or neighborhoods. in general, black men are far behind men of every other racial group. a white man who has a degree, earns in the mid-$60K annually, and owns his own car and home considers himself average, but for a black man, that's the cream of the crop. even immigrants (including black ones) will surpass black men after only a few years.

[@searose6192]

But if you are going to say it’s because of black gangs, then you have to ask two questions. 1. Why don’t other gangs kill, assault, etc at the same level? 2. Perhaps the reason is there are less white and Asian gangs. If that is the case why are there less white and Asian gangs?

[@kevincurrie-knight3267]

I do not understand Glenn's incessant need to apologize for Charles Murray and to put him in as good a light as possible even when the light is glaringly artificial. Murray likely isn't saying that there is something inherently criminal about black people (John's wrong). But Murray is also not (Glenn's wrong) only saying "here are the numbers, and I have no working explanation for why the disparities exist and persist." It seems obvious to me - having read enough of Murray's books and heard enough interviews with him) that Murray is saying something like this: "There are these disparities and they are persistent regardless of policy interventions. My theoery is that, at minimum, the average IQ difference between black and white - which is also persistent regradless of policy interventions, which likely means they are somewhat genteic - must play some part in these disparities and why they persist." And honestly, while that isn't directly saying that black people are genetically inferior, it is a hop, skip, and jump away from it. At worst, it is the way someone who really wants to ssy that former thing says it in polite company. And it is sad to me to see Glenn ALWAYS cover for Murray when anyone points that out.

[@kevincurrie-knight3267]

He does the same with Amy Wax. With both, he essentially says "Hey, I'm not endosing ther views, but here is the strongest case I think can be made for them." And while that in itself could be admirable, he ALWAYS says this in defense of criticisms of their views, and never seems to criticze their views himself. Given that, I can understand fully why onlookers surmise that Glenn is really sympathetic to the views of both and simply doesn't want to say it directly.

[@Ton369]

This video would be deleted by KZbin if they had a different color.

[@ttttggggg636]

BLACK AMERICAN CULTURE!!!!

[@naithngr81-jh2bb]

Your sister loves it.

[@fern10011]

Other countries must have similar situations where one group that historically has been discriminated against develops these kinds of dynamics within the group. It would be interesting to study. I believe white people with a similar history would behave the same. I'm white, and to me this seems like obvious logic.

[@fern10011]

Replying to myself: At the same time, Glenn and John, I think you're right to talk about personal responsibility. As humans we need to find our responsible self --also seek guidance. It's a paradox, like everything. I appreciate you guys so much!

[@christophermclaughlin8917]

We Scots Irish Grew the F**K Up, And Out of It.... Read and Keep Reading Dr. Thomas Sowell yo.

[@RowdyRory]

Racial disparities are largely attributable to the fact that the races have had radically different evolutionary trajectories, not only over time, but then on different continents. These two "social scientists" have antediluvian, and essentially unscientific nonevolutionary views. They are basically smart guys who have bigoted ideological perspectives that prejudice their understanding of human nature. They start from the false assumption that everyone is the same (God created all men on the sixth day, just made them different colors) and then find themselves wholely unable to explain important racial differences. They don't seem to understand even what a "race" is. For God's sake, read some Darwin. For starters, try just reading the subtitle of the "Origin of Species".

[@mrmixitup6128]

By far the best analysis in the entire comment section

[@neuroculdesac1]

Are you arguing racial divergence from a genetic standpoint or cultural?

[@oraz.]

I actually agree with you. It seems everyone is clamoring for alternate explanations, when the one with the most precedent and parsimony is right there. We know behavior and psychology is very much heritable, and we know that the colloquial idea of race is basically actually real in terms of clusters of separate heritage. we even have specific examples of genes relating to things like MAOI. I don't necessarily like it, but I'm surprised how people are able unanimously take these side routes.

[@RowdyRory]

@@neuroculdesac1 You're commiting the Fallacy of False Alternatives. My point is plain: the major races were reproductively isolated from one another on different continents for tens of thousands of years. Every feature of human beings evolves, not just their bodily morphology but also "mental" things like temperament.

[@oraz.]

@@drandrewm No. When I say behavior is heritable it doesn't mean any disparity in behavior should be explained with hereditary cause. When you see large trends that don't change and are distinct between groups without coherent alternative explanations, only then does it make sense to go there. If there's a massive difference in suicide statistics I haven't heard of it. Some mental illnesses like schizophrenia have racial disparities though. The point is you explain things as hereditary only where it's parsimonious, not anywhere there's a disparity.

[@iAmEhead]

Great discussion as always! Evolutionary psychologists talk about ultimate and proximate causes. The left emphasizes racism, which they perceive as the ultimate cause, and make talking about proximate causes taboo. Everything Glenn said about networks perpetuating violence is almost certainly at least partly true. Now, that that network got established... that may be due to the long reach of the ultimate cause (a story might could be told how it was born out of racism from civil war era up to 60 years ago). Of course, not much can be done about that now. Much easier to try and deal with the proximate cause at this point.

[@ondolite3789]

Crap discussion. Without racism there can be no whyte people. Simple as that.

[@hartyewh1]

All that is needed is economic opportunity and for the relevant populations to feel reasonable confidence, which will follow within a generation of the opportunity. People need to mix much more geographically, that is one thing. The practical segregation is what holds the structures, or in this case the lack of them, in place. This requires relative safety in an area so all the young people need to find their way to partake in work or education to keep them busy during the riskiest years. A life of crime is not an option for those who consider it too risky for the rewards.

[@ondolite3789]

These two are here to defy each and every one of your positive words. They are fully committed. According to them, blacks can exist independently of their actual lives.

[@mtatom92345]

I’m struck speechless that you two remarkable black intellectuals don’t have an answer to the black violence question. Hint: High testosterone and low moral guidance/supervision!

[@walterhoward5512]

John was too quick to skip over the history argument. I think there is something to the idea that we're dealing with not just the economic effects of historical discrimination, but some kind of trauma that is being passed down from one generation to the next. I don't think this a problem that can fixed by anything but time. Any actual solution would be rejected by both sides.

[@home4life505]

Nope.

[@umwha]

Consider Sowells studies. He found that the crime rate of American blacks was low in the early 1900s, and marriage rates were high. It was after this that the black crime rate became problematic. So, as racism subsided and they achieved equal rights, the culture was actually worsening at that time. Sowel says it’s to do with government welfare incentivizing single mothers.

[@mikerof5070]

Enough time to mix all the races, huh? Nothing more nothing less.

[@twatmunro]

If that's actually the case, then why is it that as historical discrimination is reduced, this kind of violent crime in black communities increases? You're doing exactly what Glenn points out when people use 'culture' to explain the problem -- simply relabelling it. You have to explain the mechanism by which it works. Are you saying that young black men, as a consequence of historical discrimination, are somehow made angrier and this anger plays out in violence against OTHER black people? Then why doesn't the same mechanism play out among other historically discriminated against groups? Why are there no gangs of jews, roaming the streets, car jacking people at will?

[@pythonjava6228]

If it can explain the problem and lead to policy decisions or some other solution then its useful. If it can't then its just armchair activism and virtue signalling.

[@pitbossea]

My theory is that it’s due to the oppressive matriarchy the AA community lives in.

[@imnotanalien7839]

Have Democrat policies over the last 60 years helped reduce overall poverty….or has poverty increased? If you were to compare it to the UN giving billions of dollars and programs to poverty stricken countries… would there be a difference. If poverty is going up in both cases… it’s government policy.

[@dandylion188]

Higher levels of testosterone?

[@mrjdbrn]

I'm making no excuses for our behavior as black people, but I strongly believe that the violence is due to decades of progressive programming

[@briane173]

I can see that. It used to be that one of the prime targets of the far left has been the family, and the easiest community in which to disintegrate families is the black community -- because race and racism can always been held up as the culprit; but before it was a dirty little secret. Now, it's out in the open -- in proud pronouncements from the two leaders of the BLM movement -- that Marxism is the objective and the nuclear family is the target. They said it themselves, and quite proudly.

[@mikerof5070]

Because progressives don't program whites ?

[@mrjdbrn]

@@mikerof5070 actually I believe that we as black people have just been test subjects and that white Christians patriotic kind of lower middle some upper class people are progressive biggest enemy and what they really are trying to rid the country of because that group of people are the majority because everything that starting to happen in this country more broadly from fentanyl addiction to companies leaving communities to absentee fathers to teenage pregnancy was all tested on us first

[@mikerof5070]

@@mrjdbrn that's interesting, because a lot of people see black people as the progressives number one weapon against the west and it's traditional values. I mean, no group is an absolute monolith, but it sure is close. What about ideas that progressives are using. Victimhood, anti-merit, etc. They ARE the definition of anti-western civ, but it sure seems like the vast vast majority jump on em like they are winning Powerball numbers.

[@reinerwilhelms-tricarico344]

I think it’s not about black people in general, but about black Americans in America. The rate of violence may in part be as high as it is because too many excuses are made for it. BLM has accomplished one thing: if you as a black dude go and plunder some pharmacy, there are many “white allies” who will applaud you, or at least tolerate your criminal behaviour. And it’s clearly nothing “genetic”: I bet that during the times of MLK the violence rate among black people was lower than or as low as that among whites. (This is of course conjecture, I don’t know the stats of those times).

[@buckchile614]

This guys are so indoctrinated(and wanting to fit in) that, if you sat them down and forced them to look at every picture of lynching available, they'd say, " wow, I didn't know that they had toothpaste back then"!

[@gmsllc]

Would good people with guns be able to quell some of the lawlessness? Allowing constitutional carry.

[@robertbentley3589]

All those good guys standing in a hallway of the school in Texas didn't help alot.

[@HoldemCallfield]

@@robertbentley3589 I think the good guys (and girls) were prevented from going inside. The people in the hallway were just cops.

[@gmsllc]

Cops are not thr good guys

[@TheShootist]

@@robertbentley3589 there weren't any. the cops refused to open the doors. cops /= constitutional carry.

[@twatmunro]

@@robertbentley3589 -- And yet those self-serving cowards are the only people you'd trust to have legitimate access to gun ownership.