Racing Lines: Early VS Traditional VS Late Apex

A quick look at lines and apexes as used in racing and on the street.
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[@Teamoneilrally]

Hi and thanks for tuning in! Our KZbin channel was recently switched to a brand account from a personal one and some past comments were lost as a result. Please ask any questions you have and we’ll get to them as quickly as possible, thanks again for watching and please don’t forget to hit like, subscribe, and enjoy!

[@sermerlin1]

Anybody else going like "Good this gonna bring me those sweet seconds in dirt rally!"???

[@maisaralifeschool]

definitely

[@makooo16]

God damn right

[@SparksX18]

dirt 4 actually

[@tamraritter7494]

Lmao yea got me!

[@YaqoubAlTayib]

Forza ms7...but yeah mate.

[@caddyguy5369]

This should be part of drivers education. I love practicing lines in the driving lane. It is so satisfying to catch up to people driving faster.

[@PressurenFlames]

Will never happen (because we will get "the great" autonomous cars)..

[@janussQv]

Thank you for this series, I've had an argument over this multiple times with people, and I've always taught that early on always use late apex and gradually go to perfect line while learning the track and gaining speed.

[@Teamoneilrally]

Great approach!

[@ragweedmakesmesneeze]

@@Teamoneilrally There's also something really fun about the late apex. I feel a little "rally" every time I late apex a highway exit ramp...much to the dismay of my navigator (wife). haha.

[@cryalowicki]

No music during talking please.

[@simkarte123]

or at least quieter...

[@KDD8]

Put this video on mute and read the subtitles

[@gabrielcastro8109]

just a lower gain

[@loopduplicate]

"Generic Background Rock! Yeah, put that in there!" Not every idea is a good one :)

[@loopduplicate]

@@KDD8 Dude, great idea :) I've only watched half of the video so far. I wish I read the comments first :)

[@MegaFPVFlyer]

11:27 "the smoothest surfaces" Alright I'll make sure to aim for the black ice as much as possible from now on

[@filipprucnal]

Also, make sure to shave off the tire thread in these conditions. That way, you get the most surface contact as possible :D

[@BladezAndrew]

@@filipprucnal i've found that to truly have the smoothest surface, and to be the fastest that you don't even need to use the tires. You just roll the car over and slide around on the car's roof every corner and for every braking zone to ensure the maximum smoothest surface, and for the most surface contact as possible. I've always wondered why nobody has really done that more especially in Formula 1, but clearly it's just because they don't have roofs in Formula 1, not to mention the aerodynamics would get messed up upside down... yeah that's probably the only real problem would be the aerodynamics, they probably removed the roofs for weight reduction bro, since sliding upside down wouldn't provide downforce. Although i believe in theory.... Now don't go telling a lot of people about this, cause it's like top secret yo.... But i believe that if you were to slide upside fast enough that the roof of the car would get welded to the ground, providing more grip than anything downforce would be able to achieve cause it would literally be like the car is on rails.

[@lukel1724]

@@BladezAndrew I appreciate the effort that went into taking this to the extreme! X'D

[@frankovercrest2317]

You wanna put more calm music for a video with expaination

[@qpSubZeroqp]

FrankOverCrest or lower volume

[@qpSubZeroqp]

FrankOverCrest I don't mind the rock, it's good stuff, it's just that it's a bit distracting with it being at it's current volume

[@topmodstv3682]

Glad I found this channel. I don't rally but you have some videos that are helpful for someone who likes to drive fast in canyons or backroads. I've always wanted to get behind the wheel of a rally car

[@surethebest]

Wonderfully and logically explained ! Best comprehensive tutorial on KZbin. Keep up the great wrk, man! Cheers from Germany, Richard

[@JoeModz]

Great stuff! Keep up this kind of content! "If you get pulled into those, it's going to get a little bit weird."

[@collinsenosh]

I am such a beginer, yet it makes so much sense, very well explained, this technique works for streer drivig as well!

[@SPROTIPS]

Great job setting up and running the PRS match this weekend - now I'm hooked on the O'Neil driving videos!

[@Teamoneilrally]

Thanks Allan!

[@scottwyman5014]

Works for me in a FWD too on Bitumen = AWESOME. You are the first person to explain it to me, I've been doing the Late Apex for years but didn't know why - thank you!

[@yeagemk]

Excellent content, guys. Very enlightening. Thank you for uploading this for free and for adding value to the driving community. By the way, I didn't think the music was bad at all, but I am using a desktop

[@GizmoGTI]

great video tutoirial! though the music was a lot like someone with tinitus, I struggled to focus in on the content with the background music ringing throughout

[@rallycsx]

Glad to see you posting up a lot of content Wyatt.

[@mardamek]

This is an awesome video, that puts words and explanations to what I usually feel while driving on a twisty mountain road. As far as picking the right apex, I have to say (if at the risk of sounding obnoxious and full of myself) that he only confirmed my approach to taking corners. That being said, it is a whole different story when you have to take the camber of the corner into consideration, especially when the conditions are not dry/ideal. This is where I could use all the advice available ... This is where grip/tire choice take second place to suspension/set up of the car ...

[@macedoniaveles]

An excellent lesson in driving. This stuff should be taught in every driving school.

[@the_lyrical_woodsman]

Excellent excellent excellent video! So glad to learn this concept! It'll be a huge help slip sliding around out in Portland

[@Jesus4KungFu]

Great video! Thank you for taking the time

[@CalvinDead]

Really smart videos Team O'Neil ! Keep feeding us that wonderful content :D !

[@lukel1724]

Wow, excellent driving examples! They match the whiteboard diagram explanations perfectly!

[@dillanmartin6727]

Great video, one day I wanna go to your school for 2 weeks haha looks like a a lot of great learning

[@christopherbrewington1813]

Wow this help heaapssss I just started driving these popular mountain roads and I always find myself cutting in too early and I feel I’m going slower than I could be. Or than I see my friends go lol. Can’t wait to try some of these and get more used to it

[@TheMpuppy]

I've learned something here. Thanks. Keep up the good work!!

[@bomche8497]

I been driving like this since i was 8 little did i know about apexes till i became 13 and started searching for car vids and other stuff great vid man i love it

[@urdrenn]

awesome videos guys, good to learn!

[@ethannewhouse7541]

Would you guys do a video on track prep, different track materials (gravel dirt tarmac) and how they are maintained?

[@onethirdmayo8556]

I always like your videos! Solid and wholesome contents!

[@loopduplicate]

Such an amazing video. It's nice to be able to hear from you about these little technical things. I just drive in Gran Turismo because I don't have money or resources in my life to drive a real rally car; too many other interests, like dirt bikes :) But you know, these tips help out in lots of situations that aren't all on the track. For example, I use my knowledge of racing lines to make getting on the freeway easier when there's a short onramp... If you late apex the corner, you can really give it a lot of throttle on the exit and if there are potholes or whatever on the exit, you can let off the throttle a little bit and take a wider line. If you take an early apex or a traditional line, you end up going really slow and also end up right on the bumper of the car in front of you, which sucks when you need to merge.

[@czarli]

Try out project cars 2 or dirt rally The game is less smooth different surface available and it will make you a bit busier than gran turismo,

[@loopduplicate]

@@czarli Sweet, thanks, I'll check those out :)

[@ethannewhouse7541]

Very informative. New techniques to try on some back roads.

[@stephanowang4063]

Thank you for the video. It's very insightful!

[@AlexB13]

Very cool explained, big thanks from Germany!!!

[@Teamoneilrally]

Thanks Alex!

Nice never saw it that way that the 1st apex of a 2 apex turn didn't matter. The drawing bord help a lot heheh. Thanks guys!!

[@simonnoelb]

love these videos keep'em up!

[@tommyvercetti6035]

Thanks for making these videos! I've been learning so much. I wish I could afford to go to your school. Its only a few hours north of me.

[@junlee7763]

Some might find the music bit intrusive or distracting, yet I totally love it. I can totally focus and (trying hard to) understand the whole lecture. I love the metal music in background, great taste!

[@Strakos0]

This was great, Team O'Neil! Did really good job, I am now more certain about the slower cars. Anyway, you mentioned go-karts, so I would like to ask you, could you get more detailed about go-karting? How to be the fastest..

[@waveandsoundchannel]

You information is gold for me

[@andypaine7489]

Great video!

[@spark9615]

Good stuff. Just found your channel!

[@BenitoDiMalta]

Wonderful video! Keep up the awesome work. I wish i could be one of your students and teachers. hahahaha

[@RideAfterMidnight]

Traditional racing line would change if the driver knew it was an s line turn. Hard to predict in rally conditions though which is something I've learned today, thank you

[@NerdyCatCoffeeee]

Not really arguing, more like adding: Yes, hard to predict, buy you guys (rally drivers) should kinda study the course before going on stage. I think. never had real rally experience, but If i were there, i'd like to know at least a general layout. (I mean you could read the co-driver's notes or something, right?)

[@gn01945116]

Thanks for your lesson

[@kurtsaenz4048]

I like the late apex turn. I constantly use it when racing.

[@play150]

thanks for this video!

[@archetypex65]

One issue is that I find that no one from instructional schools and manuals from cars to motorcycles differentiates or explains about the geographical Apex versus the racing Apex, whether that is early traditional or late. This is important because it confuses a lot of people. The geographical Apex of a corner could never be moved it is where it is. it's located at the highest point of the radii. In most instances a corners Apex(s) will be determined by the radius; both the length and the arc. And also how many geographical apex's exist in a corner. I.E. single Apex, double Apex, triple Apex, Etc. Another consideration with regard to the racing late Apex line is that it requires more steering input. So I find that for beginners and sometimes even intermediate drivers and riders, it can actually be less productive unless they start practicing at slower speeds. Of course in a car, it is more forgiving with four wheels. Bottom line is being smooth with inputs to the steering braking and acceleration of the vehicle is crucial... smooth=fast 👌

[@Teamoneilrally]

The actual geographical apex of a corner is a constant, absolutely correct. We have it easy here at Rally School because we have full time instructors in the cars all the time, so our classroom sessions are pretty quick and the real training happens behind the wheel. It's pretty easy to feel out what a driver needs to hear and how they need to hear it, everyone needs it explained a little differently, you know how it goes. It must be really tough training motorcycles, unless you have some kind of comms in helmets and instructors for each rider and all that. As far as training lines VS skills, again you're correct. We start with a bunch of basic left foot braking and skid control exercises before we talk lines and apexes. Again, on a street bike on a track, teaching skid control must be a pretty tough sport.

[@Ai-GOME]

brilliant explanation~!!

[@Coleskatemane]

Quality content, just gained a subscriber.

[@hardankles3382]

Good video!!!!! Very informative!!!!!!!

[@khalilkhan7532]

Excellent.

[@MurderBong]

This is a great, informative video. I would love to see you take on an outdoor, hilly, pro-go-kart track. go-karts are cheaper than full cars. "Children" suck money from car racing budget, but pro-karts are less than $2000

[@bhpturboboost]

hi , nice upload , i was wonder what you think about taking the corner with rear wheels dictating when you start to turn the steering wheal. . example you let the from go slightly further then when when the rear has a clean line into the turn you flick the from and control the acceleration and front turning direction . an the rear wheels are a fixed and are what hold you on trajectory , i have been practicing this technique and am really happy how my driving has improved compared to relying only on the front wheels to steer and control the car .... any advice is welcome ... thanks ..

[@TheYakkis]

Love that logo.

[@26jess]

I noticed the late apex you showed is strikingly different from other guides I see online. Is the rally late apex really that different that I seeks the inside of the road instead of the outside of the road?

[@thedude4795]

Hard rock music helps you focus on the teacher!

[@rallycultureYT]

Thanks a lot lor these tips

[@mattcollins3711]

thanks 👍

[@LightMagicAcademy]

One of the best rallye theory video I've ever seen.

[@mikemhz]

On the street, for example a mountain road, an early or mid apex could lead to your encountering oncoming traffic straddling the dividing line. Late apex safest way (unless there is adverse camber).

[@Teamoneilrally]

Particularly important on motorcycles for this exact reason

[@georgekurgansky5986]

Aha! Very good stuff.

[@tonycruise]

the late apex also allows you to feather the throttle and if your car slides more you dont go off the mountain or into a wall

[@RyanWithAviators]

I actually appreciate the music. It's not loud on my computer, even with headphones, but I have an audio system I can tune to what I prefer, so maybe that's it.

[@user-vs7sb9wg2r]

I just play need for speed underground 2 and I notice I need all of the engine braking and a late apex for any awd car otherwise it just understeers. So it's not only for safety on the rally course, it also makes awd car faster.

[@BladezAndrew]

lego technic NFS underground 2 is a great game, one of my all time favorite childhood games, but I wouldn't necessarily say that just because it works in that, that it works for real. Now games like Assetto Corsa, rFactor 2, iRacing.... Etc.

[@user-vs7sb9wg2r]

Racing line episide something says that awd cars' racing line hits the apex later.

[@waclosh]

Try LFS. It is free and the physics are unrivaled

[@beardedbrogaming6066]

Much better to understand you sir. Thank you!

[@chavruta2000]

the one advantage of early apexing is that you brake into your slide earlier, which means you can get prepared for exiting the turn earlier, and you will be facing center apex because you've already started spinning. If you late apex and oversteer, you can go into a 360, but with early apexing you will just go sideways.

[@Beaunage]

Or understeer and go off the road? Early apexing is a bad idea.

[@ukemike1]

Another reason to late apex is that you can get on the throttle earlier which gets you faster down the next straight.

[@VerdaderoMisterio]

that's how bus drivers do

[@getahanddown]

Toss it in, clip the curb, gas it out. They're more skilled than racing drivers tho, the bodies move around shifting the centre of gravity

[@mannyechaluce3814]

my commuter bus is sideways on the corner all the time :D

[@dalcala75]

Yo thank you!

[@CrazyLazyDave]

I just hear Days Of Thunder in my head 😂 "high in, low out"

[@x-daveonpc]

Take a shot everytime the word " apex " is said . Anyway , very good and explicative video !

[@unionse7en]

..and one must combine these theory of lines with giving enough priority to staying on favorable camber (see his other vids). Many times the usable road width for choosing lines is 1/2 the actual width because road camber dictates the choices.

[@nstv23]

Does late apex make you loose the rear easily or it’s easy to control ?

[@Teamoneilrally]

It's pretty easy to control with some practice.

[@eh438]

topic is great, explanation is great,......can really do without the muzak!

[@wtfuredead]

When miss judging the corner and having too much speed for a late apex(or no apex at all), i think it's better to hug the inside for an early apex as it provides the extra distance for a longer braking zone. Note that this (sometimes) happens on normal roads where the car was pushed only to 60-70% of it's grip capabilities. Can anyone share his experience of when the car was at it's grip limits in a corner that was miscalculated?

[@Denverian]

well, when you notice you are coming too hot to an apex, you know it because your car is already on an understeer condition - i.e. your car can't steer in anymore. In this situation, your turning radius increases and overshoots the apex. The only solutions are to overshoot if situation permits, or hard brake with an anticipation that an oversteer or crash will follow. IF you could steer in more to hug the apex, you were not coming too hot at all. This is exactly why the guy in the video is saying that traditional max in/max out won't work in real life, especially for rally situations, and hence it's better to do late apecies. Now, if you are late to a late apex, the only safe option is to maximize the brake, keep the straight course until speed is reduced enough to clear the corner. It's always the best to avoid any accidents than trying to save some milliseconds.

[@Denverian]

due to my car's setup (stock + bad tire), I often run into an understeer situation in windy roads. I have BRZ which is a well balanced cornering machine, so I often let it happen because my car will auto correct it with a slight brake and catch back to the corner. If I were in other cars, I will simply not let the understeer happen in windy roads as that's very dangerous. Simply put, I will never try to explore my car's limit in windy roads unless I'm driving cars like BRZ or other well balanced tuned cars.

[@josephceschini5023]

Wonderful, wonderful videos! I'm a complete novice with a very novice question, lol. In my simple little monkey brain, why does the late apex line (if done perfectly) seem to be theoretically faster than the traditional racing line? I know I must be wrong on this, but just bear with me because I'm trying to understand all of this in a very short period of time haha. I understand that a traditional line carries in more speed, but wouldn't that be negated by the other opportunities that late apexing provide; like braking much later in a more straight line before turning in, less overall time spent turning the wheel (albeit a harsher input for late apexing) and much faster corner exiting, due to how it 'straight-lines' the corner? Once again, I'm not arguing, as decades of race craft couldn't be wrong, but could someone help me figure out where my mistake in thinking is and how to better understand all this balancing?

[@michaellawson9348]

Quick Scandinavian flick, hit the apex with the car pointing in the direction of the corner exit, nail it and you're away.

[@michaellawson9348]

...try and keep the car pointing straight after the apex

[@baatour]

what is the fastest way to go through a U-Turn ??

[@ankeyao]

traditional apexing is always the fastest, that means out-in-out with zero room for error.

[@hockeyrocker1172]

What The Magic Farmer said, along with handbrake if it's a particularly tight u-turn or if you're really fighting under-steer and need to get a tighter turn.

[@blueridgewarden2838]

handbrake turns are covered on this channel

[@anomilumiimulimona2924]

Have a 4steer

[@SchoolofHardNOX]

Sideways.

[@Chille0]

so this is mostly just for tracks you arent familiar with? seems like the main advantage to a late apex is safety, is a traditional apex always strictly faster if you can pull it off?

[@Teamoneilrally]

If you do a track day, you'll see the same 10 corners 100 times. If you do a rally, you'll see 1000 corners one time each. You'll see rally drivers late apex A LOT because we might know it's a "Left 4" but it could be a little slippery, off-camber, downhill, rough, we don't have all the information so we need to keep a little change in our pocket. The traditional racing line is faster if you know the corner perfectly, but if you try to use that line on every corner of a rally you'll probably be in the woods in the first few miles.

[@RattledKO0730]

Can you please tell the song? :)

[@JoeIsCrazyWillman]

Ok, the 90 & 180 degree turns aren't too bad. Where I lose knowledge of cornering particularly is something beyond that. A 270 degree turn, or even a 360 degree turn where the course or track changes elevation enough that you pass underneath where you were, or where the corner is big enough that you can complete a turn like that without crossing where you last were (so essentially a spiral, so to speak). That, and super long sweeping corners that still turn 180+ degrees. Hard for me to visualize apex and know how to hit such large curves correctly. Anyone able to help out on those? 270+ degree turns and long sweeping 180+ turns?

[@organizedsolid]

some turns have more than one apex, for example there is a particular turn at a local road course that is a decreasing radius turn and has two apexes which must be kept in mind when approaching the corner

[@georgeisaak5321]

a great video , that explains beautifully the obvious importance to where we shall start applying brakes !!!! Some drivers have a "gift" and know how the moment they see the corner , but not all of the drivers are like that and that is what is causing most of the accidents on the road . I saw people with stock shitty cars , old cars taking a corner like it was nothing special and i saw people with expensive , modern cars with lots of system to assist them and crash on the same corner . It is not the car people , it is the driver !!!! Drive safe people !!!! Lets have wonderful Christmas for years to come !!!!

[@mrPsychonaut8]

thanks dad love you

[@deangayon8442]

Awesome, awesome, videos! Thank you! Background "music" is just distracting noise. It really really dilutes the valuable content. I know its to adds "excitment", but It doesn't do anything for me. ... But ill definitely keep watching!

[@mannyechaluce3814]

just like a motorcycle style on how to handle turn, always late Apex so you can see what is around the corner...

[@scrabsdead]

nicee

[@Somegoy]

At higher speeds this late apex is only possible in an AWD or FWD with some serious control. If your out on the backroads like he said

[@NolePTR]

So it's always better to apex a little late than a little early. Got it.

[@phill4337]

The music made me both early and late apex, then hit trees, but drive through them and then chug a beer and puke

[@MohammedAli-lw6ff]

I'm interested to join you and learn how to drift

[@wtcnl]

13:00 Oh no! Cut that sharp right corner!

[@NoorquackerInd]

4:43 Me who uses traditional apex religiously in order to reduce braking: _panics_

[@christopheclugston]

Traditional Racing Line? You mean Constant Radius. In Formula Road Racing there are 3 types of racing lines--and you failed to mention camber--drive the camber not the line for Rally (started Rallying in the GLory days of the 70s) And you can early apex in rally where you can throw the car sideways to square that apex and scrub off speed if is a decreasing exit.

[@Loiswomgawesome]

why would you add music in the background when youre trying to explain something....

[@user-qo4qe5py3v]

7:50 the red car wins : ]

[@PauloRondynele]

I've learned this all by myself and i was wondering that, someone that who know at least the basics of physics need to be explained what was explained in this video, it is a great video but, in myself i was wondering that.

[@joebrown9621]

😎👍🏾 sounds like driving in JA 🇯🇲 💢😆

[@raufmeister]

so basically the racing lines in rally are similar to the ones in the circuit

[@theoriginaldylangreene]

No, not at all. Around a circuit in the dry, there is 'the racing line' everything else is marbles and is less grip. In the wet on a circuit the racing line is off of the dry line as the line is rubbered and provides no grip in the wet. In the wet, you choose a point before the turn to run over the line where you know you will loose traction, so that you can take the corner off of the racing line with more traction . Listen to this video, he explains very very clearly why you won't be using the traditional fast line through the corner in rallying.

[@zwjna]

@@theoriginaldylangreene WRC drivers think otherwise. WRC is the elite of rally, and proper racing lines are mandatory. They have outstanding pace notes systems, understanding of vehicle dynamics, and anticipation and improvisation skills. They craft their way thru the racing line with neat sliding techniques that can manufacture massive traction if needed for tricky moments, and it's easy to see the varying approaches in their very different driving styles. Or they might also use what they call "just clean driving" - simply drive thru the line without any fancy maneuver, that most likely is faster than any such "early/late apex" techniques.

[@Chimera6297]

RIGHT THREE okei here we go

[@EJE240]

Great video, but could definitely do without the music. Made me anxious, feels like the video is ending.

[@mzf11125]

Do a Scandinavian flick to get the most speed