How much Momentum for Arrow Penetration? (with Dr. Ed Ashby)

[@AskLeRoy]

I think you should get as much camera time with Ed as possible. This will allow his legacy the best chance to live on. We're not promised tomorrow. What you have created with him is legendary.

[@daltonbbf756]

You know you done messed up when Ed Ashby calls you out by name!

[@HuntingNoobie]

I have even more respect for Dr Ed. Last video the man was smoking a cigar. And this one, he's smoking a pipe. Then he has no fear in calling out big KZbin guys 😂. You just gotta love him. I switched from 418gr to 640gr, never going back!

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@HuntingNoobie finally blowing through them now eh? Oh don’t forget the hand gun doc Ed had in his belt too lol.

[@conraywest]

For whitetail? Have you noticed a difference at all? Seems like you would’ve had plenty momentum with what you had before assuming you use the same draw weight you have for your 640 gr arrow. Did you notice deer jumping strings less with heavier arrow due to less noise?

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@conraywest there is no momentum with light arrows thats the problem that’s why they bounce or only do 6” penetration of lucky. Even with fixed they have a higher rate of success but it’s still to low for what archery should and can do. 500-600 grains is a hunting arrow if you want a big heavy bone breaker for specific species cool 650 works. But so does 500-600 and that speed and momentum will blow through every North American game even with a mechanical. As for string jump. It’s irrelevant topic of discussion. Even a fast ibo min required arrow can be ducked by a deer at 15 yards or 120 yards because arrows will never be faster than the speed of sound and all the sound deadening gadgets on bows slows the limbs down but adds no benefit to the projectile. Not to mention the very vanes always make noise I don’t care how quiet they are deer hear it deer smell the paint and carbon residue, there is nothing we can do about that, all we can do is our absolute best and having a hunting arrow that will kill them quickly and efficiently is our best whether the placement is perfect or off its a dead animal always with low tracking and a entrance and exit hole. This is archery this is when something miraculous happens and the prey lives you can say that’s hunting.

[@conraywest]

@@chrisruzsa2798 idk, my best friend has .577 momentum with a 417 gr arrow and has 9/9 pass throughs with deer and 15 with hogs. Has never killed an animal that didn’t pass through and just killed one at 50 in Missouri. I just feel like you made a biased statement there

[@conraywest]

@@chrisruzsa2798 I think there’s a happy medium I just don’t think you have to have 500+ gr arrows when people are getting consistent pass throughs with 400+ gr arrows. Specifically speaking whitetail here which is what a majority of these people on KZbin are hunting. Not well versed on large game

[@bradwilliquette1347]

The bow hunting community needs more of Dr. Ed's content. I have learned more from Dr. Ed and Troy, in the last 18 months than I did in 20 years of bow hunting. I have come to learn that the Ashby Bow Hunting foundation is the only organization that as the knowledge of bow hunting lethality AND the data to back it up. “Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.” -John Adams

[@michaelvstheworld3680]

You two are national treasures for bowhunters, in my opinion. Hopefully, a certain individual ( Chris Bee ) can swallow their pride and learn from their recent experience.

[@robneilson9582]

Bowhunters are their own worst enemy. Thank you for putting these out there for the bowhunting community to digest.

[@mikekupetsky6879]

RF I am so glad that you are taking the time to exhume all of this knowledge from Dr Ed how can I say it before it's too late this is a wealth of knowledge did I listen to over and over that can be passed down to new archers young archers old crusty archers who want to learn something I just wanted to say thank you to both of you

[@ripfletching]

To prove that a medium-weight arrow (over 650 grains) with high FOC (Front of Center) penetrates bone and dense muscle better than a lighter arrow (425 grains), we’ll analyze this problem using principles of physics (mechanics) and some calculus, algebra, and trigonometry to quantify the effects of mass, velocity, kinetic energy, momentum, and penetration depth. ### Assumptions and Definitions: 1. **Mass of Arrow (m)**: Measured in grains (1 grain = 6.48 × 10⁻⁵ kg). - Heavy arrow mass: \( m_h = 650 \, \text{grains} = 0.04212 \, \text{kg} \) - Light arrow mass: \( m_l = 425 \, \text{grains} = 0.02755 \, \text{kg} \) 2. **Velocity (v)**: The speed of the arrow (dependent on bow type and draw weight). - We assume, for simplicity, that the velocity \( v \) is inversely related to mass due to conservation of energy in the bow. A heavier arrow will generally have a lower initial velocity. 3. **Kinetic Energy (KE)**: Given by \( KE = \frac{1}{2} m v^2 \). 4. **Momentum (p)**: Given by \( p = mv \). 5. **Force of Penetration (F)**: The force required to penetrate bone/muscle. We assume this is constant for simplicity and depends on the material properties. 6. **Distance Penetrated (d)**: We’ll relate the penetration depth to kinetic energy and momentum. This is the unknown we want to maximize. ### Step 1: Kinetic Energy Comparison Kinetic energy is a significant factor in penetration. However, it is not the only factor (momentum and the arrow’s ability to maintain velocity matter too). For a given bow, the heavier arrow will generally have less velocity due to the energy transfer, but it will still often carry more energy due to its larger mass. Let the initial velocity for the lighter arrow \( v_l \) be \( v_0 \), and for the heavier arrow \( v_h \) be \( \alpha v_0 \), where \( \alpha \) is a reduction factor due to the heavier mass (typically \( \alpha < 1 \)). The kinetic energy of each arrow: - For the light arrow: \[ KE_l = \frac{1}{2} m_l v_0^2 \] - For the heavy arrow: \[ KE_h = \frac{1}{2} m_h (\alpha v_0)^2 = \frac{1}{2} m_h \alpha^2 v_0^2 \] To compare, we express the ratio: \[ \frac{KE_h}{KE_l} = \frac{m_h \alpha^2}{m_l} \] Since \( m_h = 650 \) grains, \( m_l = 425 \) grains, and \( \alpha \approx 0.85 \) (for a reasonable estimate of velocity reduction due to mass), we get: \[ \frac{KE_h}{KE_l} = \frac{650 \times 0.85^2}{425} \approx 1.1 \] This means that even though the heavier arrow has a slower velocity, its kinetic energy is still approximately 10% greater than the lighter arrow. Therefore, the heavier arrow has more energy to penetrate. ### Step 2: Momentum Comparison Momentum plays a critical role in how well the arrow can penetrate dense materials like bone and muscle because it represents the arrow’s ability to push through resistance. - For the light arrow: \[ p_l = m_l v_0 \] - For the heavy arrow: \[ p_h = m_h (\alpha v_0) = m_h \alpha v_0 \] The ratio of momenta: \[ \frac{p_h}{p_l} = \frac{m_h \alpha}{m_l} \] Substituting values: \[ \frac{p_h}{p_l} = \frac{650 \times 0.85}{425} \approx 1.3 \] This shows that the heavier arrow has around 30% more momentum than the lighter arrow. Momentum is crucial for penetration because it dictates the arrow’s ability to maintain its velocity as it encounters resistance. ### Step 3: Penetration Depth The depth of penetration \( d \) is related to both the kinetic energy and momentum. A simplified penetration model relates penetration depth to energy and resistive force: \[ d = \frac{KE}{F} = \frac{\frac{1}{2} m v^2}{F} \] But in terms of momentum, another approximation based on resistive force \( F \) and time of contact \( \Delta t \) gives: \[ d \propto \frac{p}{F} \] Thus, penetration depth is proportional to the arrow’s momentum divided by the resistive force. Since the heavy arrow has more momentum, it will generally penetrate deeper. ### Step 4: Front of Center (FOC) Considerations A higher FOC improves arrow stability and penetration. It shifts the center of mass forward, making the arrow less likely to deflect upon impact with dense muscle or bone. This is especially important when comparing two arrows with different masses. The heavier arrow typically allows for a higher FOC, which enhances straight-line penetration. Mathematically, this can be incorporated by adding a multiplier to the penetration depth for higher FOC. ### Conclusion - **Kinetic Energy**: The heavier arrow has about 10% more kinetic energy than the lighter arrow. - **Momentum**: The heavier arrow has approximately 30% more momentum, allowing it to push through resistance more effectively. - **FOC**: The increased FOC in the heavier arrow leads to better penetration, particularly through bone and dense muscle. Thus, using physics and the principles of mechanics, we can conclude that a heavier arrow (over 650 grains) with a higher FOC will penetrate bone and dense muscle more effectively than a lighter arrow (425 grains).

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@ripfletching medium weight arrows is 500-600 heavy is 600 and over.

[@ericnewman971]

got to love using AI

[@Skelstoolbox]

dude... wow.. you are the guy to have in your camp when shit goes dark

[@jesseherbert2585]

Keep them coming! You two are like Batman and Robin, helping prove that equipment practically ANYONE can make and use is capable of taking any game legal to hunt. And Ryan Gill of Hunt Primitive is like Superman showing that it works even when using indigenous style broadheads and shafts (up to buffalo, case closed!!). But obviously the closer to Dr. Ashby's findings, the less likely a "South Australia" style ban attempt will be pushed (likely for profits) elsewhere. Salutations!!! PS my $5 per month to the Ashby foundation will "penetrate" stupid modern legislation if more "mass" comes along with it. I'm no high roller either. Together we are mighty, so pony up brothers and sisters...

[@OldDerelict]

Thank you, Sir, for helping insure the future of bowhunting.

[@progradepainting3755]

@@OldDerelict the anti hunters are coming for all of it. Bow hunting, rifle hunting, bird hunting, predator hunting. They don’t care about the optics of it. They still don’t want you hunting, ever. So creating these divisions over who has the holier than thou arrow setup, is only dividing the hunting community amongst itself. You’re not going to win by trying to box everyone into the “Ashby way, or no way” mentality.

[@jesseherbert2585]

@@progradepainting3755 Good point that some are only driven by extremist views. The issue I see with not using highly effective arrows is with so much less energy, it is a lot easier to mess up a harvest compared to using firearms/big bore air rifles. I use to toss hay for an OLD farmer. When asking permission to bow hunt there, he responded "HELL NO! I've seen too many F(*&ing deer with an arrow sticking out". People on the fence/moderate in their views (who may be largely responsible for the majority not caving to extremist legislation) are not likely to look favorably on claims that most bow hunters take responsible shots if a significant % of those result in lost animals. I used AI yesterday to research data on this, & it echoed claims of Dr. Ashby/Troy: recovery rates go up significantly when using heavy arrows (likely assumes other criteria are also met). Understandably, faster flight is at times required for some to even harvest, but I bet many would be less hindered than they think going with heavier arrows. Overall success would likely go up, which might be huge in the long run with respect to broader public support...

[@OldDerelict]

@@jesseherbert2585 Great insight.

[@tonykruger871]

I am a retired South African PH of eighteen years . I comented on Chris Bees video before it was taken down , that I would have hesitated to give a client the go ahead to take that shot even with a big bore rifle . Having guided and bow hunted myself a heavier arrow was needed and a bit more control exercised until a better shot opportunity presented itself . I would never have allowed a shot to be taken even if the bow and arrow weight were suitable if a mechanical broadhead was at the end of the arrow .

[@fasmola]

There are a TON of Africa hunting videos on KZbin that show 6” of penetration. It’s awful to watch. I don’t know how anyone can be proud of seeing an arrow sticking out of the side of an animal and scream out, “smoked’em!”

[@mackstrate6235]

A bit more control is by far and way the issue here. Not arrow weight. Not Broadhead type.

[@bakters]

@@mackstrate6235 " *Not arrow weight. Not Broadhead type.* " Animals move in unpredictable ways. Even up close. I went through a bunch of vids once and counted frames. They do move, quite often, or not move, sometimes. How do you account for that with a setup which requires perfect placement?

[@mackstrate6235]

@@bakters A faster arrow and better shot selection. Simple.

[@bakters]

@@mackstrate6235 " *A faster arrow* " All it does is gives you a little bit more distance for the exact same time-to-target. " *shot selection* " I've seen *perfectly* aimed shot at a doe, which totally missed her. Fairly close distance too. She just ducked so much. Even a well aimed shot on a bison cow I've seen recently ended up high and back, because she ducked and lunged forward. (. and , keys allow for watching the vid frame by frame). You can "shot select" as much as you want, but if the animal jumps the string, you will not hit where you aimed. Anyway, a sturdy setup allows for aiming low and forward. If the animal does not move, you hit the vitals. If it does, you might still have a chance for a double lung, since they *always* first go down, then forward.

[@morgmoll1]

Believe what this guy tells you, he is the real deal. Hello old friend take care Randy from Bemidji

[@bogg54]

That's crazy. Thanks again T-roy.

[@andrewchandler9197]

Love the research, I support y'all 100% on top of being more confident in my set up. Hunting public land I don't always get the perfect shot. Y'all have helped me be a more effective hunter. Also for everyone who calls BS... MATH DOESN'T LIE.

[@folikur2744]

I really enjoy these videos, nothing quite like getting the info directly from the source

[@arowanasb86]

Keep them coming! Like i said in my email you guys made a believer out of me and just had a test to back it up. Nothing like a poor hit turning into a short track because you had the right arrow to handle anything tossed at it. You guys make it "so easy a cave mam could do it" in terms of understanding, yet so many people can't math.

[@glennbayley5863]

Thank you to the ranch fairy and doctor Ed. Very interesting gentleman with more knowledge that he could probably pass on. Thank you..

[@oscartaylor4063]

I am sooooo glad Doc spoke pure FACT! "We are going to need this data to try to save bowhunting in the not so far away future!" We continue to be our own worst enemies as hunters. It amazes me how difficult we make simple things. Bring DOWN the wound and loss rates on local woodlots, ranches, farms, leases, and concessions and the negative impacts will slowly cease.

[@zhickman338]

It’s never going to save bow hunting. They can present the evidence, but what evidence do they have that anyone uses the Ashby set up? Maybe 1 percent of hunters are walking around with 650 with 20 FOC, probably even less than 1 percent.

[@stephenballard3759]

@@zhickman338 Well that's the point. You go to lawmakers and game departments, you say "Here we have a system that will limit wounding lost to a fraction of what it is. They look at your data and do some testing. They make regulations about what you have to carry and shoot in the field. Efficacy and lethality go up, while wounding losses go down. Bowhunting is saved.

[@oscartaylor4063]

@@stephenballard3759 ⚡️😉⚡️sad if it has to get to that point however.

[@stephenballard3759]

@@oscartaylor4063Unfortunately, that's where we are headed, if we aren't careful.

[@nwohiooutdoors]

Troy I use your 200 grain single bevel broadhead with a 22” piledriver arrow it like 628 or something like that I shoot a killer instinct crossbow I don’t see a difference I’m sure there is but with bare eyes I can’t tell the arrow is slower but the amount of penetration I get is amazing compared to using a 100 grain broadhead!!!thank you Troy and dr.Ashby for all you do❤

[@chadbuck12]

Learn something new every time you two talk!

[@terryjohnson3100]

Thanks for all the work you guys have done for us!

[@JimD-h8s]

I can't believe this is even an argument. I was a scrappy kid. I wasn't above grabbing a handful of gravel and chucking it in their face to blind them and allow me to land some hits. I never grabbed a rock half the size of a golf ball or bigger because I knew that would do too much damage. Children instinctively understand this principle. The fact that adults argue basic and provable physics can only result in the most epic of face palms. Deep breath folks and have yourself a great day 👍

[@veteranironoutdoors8320]

I’d like to hear ed’s continued talk about culling.

[@OldDerelict]

We only had 40 minutes of recording time available. I wanted to get that in. There may be an opportunity in the future. There are many topics I'd like to discuss and have on the record while I'm still capable of doing so. Some topics are (1) all about stalking skills, (2) camouflage and making practical Ghillie suits, and (3) practicing for hunting shots. Those would be lengthy topics. I'd prefer to have that on video, but I'll likely get an opportunity on a podcast. No problem for me to do both.

[@krm944]

@@OldDerelictI really like these chats. You have a wealth of knowledge, experience and data to back it all up. I saw an old video - Hunting Stories you told and I could listen for hours. It was better than an audio book!!!

[@OldDerelict]

@@krm944 Thank you, Sir. I'm glad you liked the video. I agreed to do them to leave the information to future bowhunters while I still can.

[@krm944]

@@OldDerelict My son is 11, just got his first bow and we have watched many of Troy’s videos. He already knows that his hunting arrows will be cut on contact broadheads and heavy!!! He likes pointing out ‘flappers’ that don’t penetrate and pass through whitetails!!!

[@C.Fowler]

Really good information.😉👍Thank you and Mr. Ashby for taking the time to make. Love hearing him talk….

[@Practice2Perfection]

I will miss Ed so much when he's gone. He's like the Grampa I never had.

[@ripfletching]

In archery, FOC (Front of Center) refers to the percentage of an arrow's weight that is concentrated toward its front end. An arrow with a higher FOC will have a more forward weight distribution, leading to increased stability during flight. This stability is crucial when it comes to penetration upon impact, as a stable arrow is more likely to strike the target at an optimal angle. When an arrow with a high FOC hits the target, its front-heavy design helps maintain a straight trajectory, minimizing deflection and ensuring deeper penetration. Conversely, a low FOC arrow may wobble or deviate more easily, reducing its ability to transfer energy efficiently into the target. Momentum, defined as the product of mass and velocity, plays a key role in penetration. Arrows with high momentum tend to carry more sustained force upon impact compared to arrows that rely solely on kinetic energy, which is sensitive to velocity changes. High-momentum arrows continue to push through resistance after impact, making them better suited for penetrating dense materials, such as bone or thick hide. The increased weight concentration in high FOC arrows contributes to this effect, as the forward mass allows the arrow to carry momentum deeper into the target. In contrast, an arrow with low FOC but high kinetic energy may have a higher initial velocity, but its lighter front end can result in less effective momentum transfer, causing it to slow down more quickly after impact. Although kinetic energy is often used to gauge an arrow's power, it only accounts for the initial force before impact and doesn't guarantee efficient energy transfer. High kinetic energy arrows with low FOC can experience more deflection and energy loss upon striking the target, reducing penetration. On the other hand, an arrow with high FOC and high momentum combines forward weight distribution with sustained force, allowing it to penetrate deeper, even in challenging conditions. This synergy between momentum and FOC creates a more efficient energy transfer and a more reliable outcome when it comes to penetration performance.

[@kendallinman606]

I have already joined up I’ll be sending what I can all along. Thanks for all y’all do. I’ll NEVER shoot light kid arrows again. I have never had better arrow flight form my longbow and penetration. Again thanks. 👍🏻

[@OldDerelict]

Thank you, Sir.

[@ClintonSmith-op5gb]

I went heavy 4 seasons ago because of no pasd thru. Havent lost an animal since. It works for me. 638 grn 27.5"draw, 70lb draw. I use an old school 3 blade muzzy with the chisel tip

[@Dunnthedad]

love your videos! appreciate all the work y'all put into it!

[@brockdrenth2772]

Great and important information. Definitely is needed for the longevity bow hunting. Can't wait to see more.

[@poplardeer]

I think a great question for the Ashby Foundation to answer would be to determine the minimum bone breaking setups for various species and their sizes. Once people see it laid out that 20 fps faster doesn't matter, they may focus on what does.

[@OldDerelict]

Heavy bone is heavy bone, regardless of species. There is, however, what we at ABF define as being "heavy bone," and then there is heavier bone. (See the definition of Heavy Bone in the Get Started section on ABF's website) The data shows that the ribs of the true buffalo (not to be confused with Bison) have a bone-breaching threshold equal to that of the heavier bones of a whitetail deer (the humerus, ball joint of the humerus, scapular ridge, spine, femur, femoral ball joint, pelvic girdle, and facial and cranial bones). It is because animals such as buffalo and pachyderms have "heavier bone" that ABF recommends an increase in arrow weight for these animals. A 650-grain arrow will kill a buffalo on a broadside or nearly broadside shot. Rob did that on a hunted buffalo two years ago. However, testing on that same animal immediately after the kill demonstrated that the 650-grain arrow lacked the momentum to be effective on 'less than perfect' arrow impacts.

[@progradepainting3755]

@@OldDerelictare you saying the heavy bone on a coues deer, is the same as heavy bone on an elk? Get outta here..

[@Bryan-vz4sz]

@@progradepainting3755 did you read the whole comment? I think what he's saying is that the humerus bone of a whitetail is the qualifier for "heavy bone" which to me would mean that the humerus bone on an elk qualifies as "heavier bone" ie: 650 is the weight for humerus bone on a whitetail but would not qualify as the bone breaching weight (out of the same bow / arrow setup) on the humerus bone of an elk.

[@progradepainting3755]

@@Bryan-vz4szyou guys are humerus, that’s for sure. I’d love to see you try to lob a 650 grain arrow at a coues deer. Lol

[@Bryan-vz4sz]

@@progradepainting3755 you can shoot whatever you want, bub.

[@judefuselier]

It's the slug at impact, however the media subject to penetration will push back on the arrow, therefore the mass is essential in maintaining the capacity for further penetration.

[@judefuselier]

Careful, with the topic, and be very articulate in this discussion. Notice there are rifle cartridge requirements in hunting game, therefore this is a logical conclusion for an potential regulatory body to leverage...

[@Kurtdog63]

An advertisement for a mechanical broadhead featuring Chris Bee just popped up on this channel... hee hee.

[@RanchFairy]

@@Kurtdog63 Hahahaha

[@Kurtdog63]

@@RanchFairy No kidding. It really did.

[@whitetailhunter7202]

Same here. I started laughing when the advertisement for his mechanicals came on during the video. 😂😂

[@weirdmood8102]

The irony is insane..... the very content they're producing to lead people away from harmful or potentially harmful hunting practices is literally being funded ( at least in part) by the very hunting practices they're trying to advise or warn against. Hell of a world we live in...

[@FDRGREG]

He nailed it with crossbows and air bows. There has to be a threshold in terms of velocity that will breech bone with less mass. I don’t know what that is or if current technology can fairly push those velocities to that threshold. I’m a crossbow hunter. I was a compound hunter since 1989. My crossbow bolts total weight are 550-610. I get what you are saying

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@FDRGREG 550-610 is perfect for crossbows we don’t need to go heavier than that. Going heavier will actually ruin the performance. I use 600-610 myself from a recurve crossbow. Best performance I have ever had.

[@FDRGREG]

@@chrisruzsa2798 yes I built my own 610s with piledriver shafts but a customer bolt maker told me those shafts aren’t stiff enough for the weight and FOC%. I have never nock tuned them but flight seems “decent” maybe not excellent. So he is building me some custom zombie shaft ones that will total 550 with a 150 head up front and 20% FOC. They will be spine aligned and spine indexed. I’m looking forward to seeing the consistency with them.

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@FDRGREG you won’t be disappointed. Is it from wyvern?

[@FDRGREG]

@@chrisruzsa2798 no AJs custom arrows. Alton Hennessey I think is his name.

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@FDRGREG ah okay I heard of them too. One of my favourite crossbows channels is death by Bunjie he use Aja’s custom and wyvern. Also zombie slayers hahahaha.

[@corh2367]

I'm still learning a ton about heavy arrows and all that, Chris will probably be forever a better archer than I am. But the moment I saw him say, "I'm shooting a twizzle stick on this trip" I saw the disaster coming... How did he not? And I got to his video too late- he had already edited out the really bad stuff when I saw it.

[@zhickman338]

If he wouldn’t have taken the frontal then I don’t think there would even be any controversy.

[@corh2367]

@@zhickman338 agreed. But, a quick Google search and every result I see says something like this: The guys I've talked too in Australia recommend 650 grains if you are shooting 80# or more. Less poundage then more arrow weight. Sounds like Chris was advised similarly and just didn't care. He shouldn't have done the frontal either way, but definitely not with that setup.

[@sethruddock5360]

@@zhickman338 The frontal was on the first buffalo that he did not recover. The second buffalo took four arrows to finally take down. So still pretty controversial. He may have edited out some of the shots after the video was revised but the original video was absolutely brutal.

[@zhickman338]

I think it’s safe to say as far as archery equipment goes velocity only helps with trajectory.

[@Elkaholics]

Great conversation troy

[@capntexas]

For the bullets, what was the definition of performance? Just from the conversation, it seems like penetration was the only factor discussed. Bullets also travel fast enough to cause cavitation, which impedes straight-line penetration but does significant outer damage as well. Ballistic gel tests on bullets will often show slower and non-expanding rounds traveling further through gel, while faster and expanding bullets will cavitate and parachute not traveling as far

[@OldDerelict]

We also looked at tissue damage, petal stand-out, and the associated tissue laceration effect (which affects the size (volume) of the permanent wound channel). One of my favorite insights into evaluating terminal projectile performance comes from Agent Urey Patrick of the FBI Training Division, "The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood-bearing organs … . Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound … . Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable …”

[@Ferrell-t8y]

I would like to hear more about the 22 hornet tests. Bullet Wt, velocity, twist rate of barrel, and what y'all found out.

[@vincenth6281]

Thank you for all the information. Hoping there's experiments in the works that would measure how much momentum is lost after a pass through (radars set up a little in front and a little behind a hung up pig). Thank you again for challenging the norm and making me a better hunter!

[@zhickman338]

Why would it matter?

[@vincenth6281]

@zhickman338 The purpose of a hunting arrow is to fly through an animal. I think measuring how much momentum is lost after a pass through would give us a ton of information about how arrows fly through the animal as opposed to flying to the animal. As indicated in the video, the more we know about how various types of arrow setups function at and through the animal the better we can defend our sport and our position that faster does not equal better.

[@zhickman338]

@@vincenth6281 if it passes through then I wouldn’t think any other parameter would be necessary.

[@aaronhall765]

Oh the irony. 2 G5 Chris Bee commercials playing in the adds. 😂😂🎉

[@traviswest2546]

amen! preeeeeeaaaach DR. ED!

[@ChavsADV]

Shop set me up with a 380 grain arrow from a 60lb bow, I reconfigured my arrows with better vanes and heavier inserts and heads to get them to 550. I did the bare shafting with a test set of heads and my arrows are flight incredibly consistent.

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@ChavsADV wow that’s insane 380 for a 60lb draw bow? Lightest I would go for that 495 grains. And while hunting can be done with this I would not personally advise hunting with that. 550 is a really nice weight you are really balanced with speed, kinetic energy and momentum get a good FOC happening and I do t think you’ll have a lot of problems. Naturally always aim for that right spot and the exit.

[@ChavsADV]

@@chrisruzsa2798I had to twist his arm to give me a 125 grain field point over 100. My rudimentary measurements give me 19%. My arrows are 27.25” so fox is a little easier

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@ChavsADV wow. This is insane you know what I tell Troy a lot? We should all go back to using 2219s again.

[@ChavsADV]

@@chrisruzsa2798​​⁠yeah, I’m shooting sonic 6.0s so they are light. I fletched with aae 26 hybrids and 290 grains on the front with inserts and broad head

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@ChavsADV I would change the shaft you know you can make cheap shafts fly great too with a bit of tuning. If you like carbons as many do you can get sharrow shafts from Amazon. Yeah they are Chinese but let me tell you they are premium stuff. I tested their crossbow shafts and once indexed they fly like 30.00 plus shafts. Seriously.

[@judefuselier]

Thanks for your time gents

[@FDRGREG]

Expansion increases at higher energy dump ( talking bullets) that equates to less penetration. 10mm vs. 40 S&W videos come to mind where the .40 out-penetrates the 10 at same exact bullet size and weight but less velocity. Look at the expansion difference and less expansion equals more penetration. That explains the 22-250 vs. 22 hornet. Arrows and broad-heads do not expand. It is all about MASS in archery and much less about velocity from a penetration standpoint. I get it and I agree.

[@TradTech]

I understand everything with the vids on momentum, mass and velocity. Please explain "Slug" and its significance. I thought I understood. Guess I don't. Love all of this Troy. I just want to understand the "slug" aspect/terminology and what it actually means...to me.

[@OldDerelict]

I'll try to do that. The slug is the unit of measurement for momentum. A body of mass (M) moving at a velocity (V) has a momentum equaling M x V. The object's weight is expressed in pounds. The weight in pounds is then divided by the pull of gravity, which is 32.174 feet per second squared. The result is the object's mass in slugs. The mass in slugs is multiplied by the object's velocity. The result is the object's momentum, expressed as slugs. Here is the crucial takeaway for momentum. MOMENTUM HAS BOTH AMPLITUDE (AND 'AMOUNT' VALUE) AND DIRECTION. Because any momentum measurement has a specified direction, IT QUANTIFIES THE NET FORCE ACTING IN THAT SINGLE STRAIGHT-LINE DIRECTION. Momentum is, therefore, known as a linear function and IS A MEASUREMENT OF AN OBJECT's FORCE OF FORWARD MOVEMENT. 1 slug of pound-force = 32.174 pound-force. Very few arrows carry one slug of momentum, and most are below one-half slug. That should give you some indication of what a small amount of forward force our arrows have to work with and why it is so important to design our arrows to conserve as much arrow momentum during arrow penetration.

[@ApexPredatorOutdoors]

Chris's water buffalo hunting video is an interesting one when you compare it to Josh Bowmar's. Chris was shooting 450ish grain arrows and three blade broadheads at 80 lbs, Josh Bowmar was shooting 90lbs and 800 or so grain arrows with single bevels and they both penetrated about the same. Interesting thought topic.

[@RanchFairy]

@@ApexPredatorOutdoors Back up man. Bowmar has his own broadhead and hasn’t been an adult arrow fan. You’re gonna have to prove he was shooting a single bevel. I’m not allowing you to just throw that out there like the left wing media. Prove it. If he did - that is fine that is fact if you can prove it. So, Just prove what you said. 800 grains and single bevel. Either here or [e-mail] If you prove it I will pull this post down.

[@OldDerelict]

I, too, question your statement that Josh Bowmar used an 800-grain arrow and a single-bevel broadhead. Even if he did use an 800-grain arrow, why would he not use and promote his own broadhead?

[@ApexPredatorOutdoors]

@@OldDerelict this was way before the beast broadhead came out. This was like 5 years ago.

[@ApexPredatorOutdoors]

@@RanchFairy Look it up on Josh's channel. He did a video shooting an 80 grain arrow through a car hood about 4 years ago. I do have to correct my original statement he shot 900 grains and it wasn't at 90 lbs he did the 90 pounds thing later. It was at 80

[@ApexPredatorOutdoors]

@@RanchFairy actually it was 900 grains: kzbin.info/www/bejne/Zne6loB8a7Bphrssi=eblvv2p_rNuEm7AO Leave it up man, we all need to show we are human. I'm wrong sometimes too

[@dwightleonard4774]

Ashby/Fowler 2024! Make Bowhunting America Great Again!

[@bbmas1930]

A couple of ideas for future Ashby style tests.......... 1. I've always thought that the effect of fletchings ripping through a hole behind the broad head has to amplify the wound channel. I'd be curious to see a broad head on a bareshaft (control) wound channel, compared to one fletched with feathers and another with stiff 4 fletch or blazers. 2. Also, to demonstrate the extent to which the body of an animal degrades arrow speed and therefore momentum during a pass through, setting up a carcass shot with a chrono at entry and a chrono at exit, would surely capture that. eg heavy vs light out of the same bow. thoracic vs scap zone.

[@waynemorris1999]

I agree. Velocity of an arrow after a pass through would be interesting information. My dad just shot an elk at 34 yards and the arrow traveled approx. 50 yards past the animal. The ground sloped away on the far side but that arrow had to still be moving pretty quick. He is shooting a 65# bow, 29” draw, 650 grain total arrow weight with a 200gr ranch fairy up front. All leaving the bow at approximately 240fps.

[@jango_bmx11]

The greatest pushback to the Ashby foundation is with the 650 grain heavy bone threshold. My question: is it possible this number can change for different animals with various degrees of heavy bone? All these guys that hunt Whitetail in North America give the ABF a hard time because they think the data doesn’t apply to them so they might as well continue shooting 400 grain arrows. Would it be possible to collect the same data with Whitetail deer in North America that was collected with primarily cape buffalo in Africa, then share the results to see if the heavy grain threshold has moved? Alternatively, a lengthy discussion about heavy bone threshold, and specifically how it relates to Whitetail deer, may clear up a lot of confusion, and increase overall support for the ABF.

[@zhickman338]

That’s why they call it heavy bone.

[@mosinw6697]

Keep Eds Videos coming we need all the help we can get. Ed is right animal rights groups are nuts and want to ban ALL HUNTING

[@christopherkielbasa7797]

He's like the winning basketball coach of a 1960s NBA final; well smarter and slightly less compensated, but still of the same stock.

[@DaLions_Den]

I can't remember exactly what was said but Ashby said something about the long rifle having increased velocity?, centripetal velocity?, momentum? from the spinning of the bullet. I wonder if spinning sustains velocity for an arrow. I imagine the drag suproceeds the potential "momentum?" gained from spinning but it'd interesting to find out. idk how you get a controlled test to find that out but with that new velocity tester you got it'd be interesting to test momentum/velocity changes of different weighted arrows with varying degrees of helical/offset flethings. It might imply an answer to the question, "Does the spinning of an arrow contribute to it's sustained momentum as it does with a bullet?".

[@RanchFairy]

@@DaLions_Den I don’t know - let me ask ed

[@RanchFairy]

@@DaLions_Den From Ed When you set a rigid body in rotation, it will tend to continue rotating at the same speed and around the same axis unless acted on by a torque. (Torque is the transfer of angular momentum.) All rotating bodies have angular momentum. The momentum of a bullet's rotation is known as Angular Momentum (it's acting at an angle to the bullet's axis). An object in motion tends to remain in motion at a constant velocity unless acted on by a force. That's because momentum is conserved. Any moving object has momentum, so it must keep moving at the same velocity for its momentum to stay the same. The only way for the object to stop moving, regardless of whether that movement is linear or angular, is to transfer its momentum to another object. (That's what force is: it's the transfer of momentum.) As with arrows, a bullet, once fired, is always flying until some outside resistance force of equal magnitude brings it to a stop. The bullet will also keep rotating until some resistance torque force of equal magnitude stops the rotation. Angular momentum causes a bullet to "resist" any forces trying to make it veer off course, keeping it traveling along a straight path. The spinning motion and resulting angular momentum stabilize the bullet's trajectory, allowing it to travel in a straight line over long distances. The spinning of the bullet is for flight stability. The momentum from rotation (the angular momentum) is NOT a component of the bullet's forward (linear) momentum, which depends only on the bullet's mass and its forward velocity. However, if the bullet loses stability in flight, the increased drag created will rapidly degrade the bullet's sustained momentum. The same applies to arrows. The arrow's rotational (angular) momentum does not directly contribute to the arrow's forward (linear) momentum, but it does help conserve the arrow's forward (linear) momentum. That's why tuning your arrow to achieve perfect arrow flight is so important; it maximizes the arrow's potential to conserve as much of its linear momentum as possible, increasing the arrow's penetration potential.

[@DaLions_Den]

@@RanchFairy ahh i get it now. Angular momentum doesn't directly contribute to linear momentum but it may indirectly contribute to the conservation of linear momentum by helping to resist outside forces. I appreciate you writing all that out for me man. Love the work y'all are doing, some of my favorite stuff to listen to and think about while I'm tinkering with stuff.

[@jonathannease8794]

@RanchFairy if I heard correctly Dr. Ashby said that with a 650g arrow impacting at 120 fps is still at the heavy bone threshold. Is there a minimum speed where 650g will not meet that threshold?

[@RanchFairy]

@@jonathannease8794 We’ve not found it - but I’m sure there is. One article to look up that is FASCINATING Ashby and Papua New Guinea. Those dudes over there are rolling 4,500 grain arrows (yes - not a typo!)

[@Don458Lott]

Dear Mr. Ranch Fairy, When you are trying to numerically quantify perfect penetration data of an arrow/bolt, do you numerically measure the broadhead sharpness with a digital meter like the “Edge-On-Up” using BESS certified media to get a better correlation of your test data? If NOT, why not? Don B. PS Keep up the excellent work!

[@zhickman338]

Maybe try asking him how he sets his 3rd axis 😂

[@OldDerelict]

Yes, Troy has (and uses) a sharpness tester using a BESS-certified medium, which I supplied to him. ABF also utilizes a sharpness tester using a BESS-certified medium. However, Ron Swartz (KME Sharpeners) modified the instrument to hold the cutting edge of the broadhead precisely perpendicular to the BESS-certified test medium. Ron donated that instrument to ABF.

[@andrewomalley2688]

Hey Ranch Fairy. Yall need to do penetration tests with a high-speed x-ray camera so you can track the velocity of the arrow head frame by frame as it passes through (or doesnt) a carcass.

[@Kurtdog63]

I guess I am wondering what significance the slug number even means or why we should even care about it? You can use Troy's momentum calculator and punch in lighter arrows at higher velocities and their slug number will be higher, yet a heavier, slower arrow, with a lower slug number, has a greater potential to penetrate heavy bone based on extensive live animal tests. Seems like the main number that matters is the arrow weight with good arrow flight. The second number that matters is the FOC.

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@Kurtdog63 slug matters because it’s the full outcome of speed ke and mass. It shows the end result of your arrow’s performance and maximum capacity of your bows potential. As you point out change numbers changes results on calculators. You want FOC regardless so for this bit we will assume good decent FOC 15% ish as this also matters too we will assume this bit is on target as well. Getting 0.7 slugs going as fast as it can with highest amount of ke it can is the best you could get. So using chronograph and calculators you need to see what your bow is doing. Play with arrow weights and find your max distance based on the 0.7 or better.

[@rohlfing63]

Great question, and yes, mass, flight quality, and foc are all very important at the end of the day. One big thing to remember with the slug number, is that is generally being calculated as the arrow leaves the string, not at the velocity when the broadhead meets bone. Drag is proportional to velocity squared, both through air and meat. A lighter/faster arrow is losing velocity (and momentum) more quickly through air and through the animal than a slower arrow. Mass is constant, so a heavy and slow arrow can arrive on target with more slugs than a light/fast arrow which may have had high slug number at release. Add to that the high mechanical advantage of the broadheads they recommend, and you have the recipe for fantastic penetration. Hope this helps.

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@rohlfing63 a much better explanation than mine thank you.

[@JasonHolloman-n9l]

Have either of you read, "Kinetic Pulse: A Study in Bullet Impact"? It fully backs up, in my opinion, your observations.

[@OldDerelict]

I have not read "Kinetic Pulse: A Study in Bullet Impact," but I will look it up. Thank you for the information.

[@daniel_bryant]

What would be the lowest bow poundage that you would suggest for a new Archer to use for whitetail deer in Texas my son is wanting to get into archery but he is smaller in stature and weaker so I don't know where to start with him

[@zhickman338]

Whatever is legal

[@OldDerelict]

We have several documented examples of lady bowhunters with short draw lengths successfully using compound bows as light 38# draw weight with penetration-maximized arrows in the range of 550 grains on animals as large as Eland. One was a long quartering-away shot on an Eland, which yielded four feet of penetration. We also have documented examples of lady bowhunters taking Cape buffalo with a 50# compound and a 48# recurve using penetration-maximized arrows in the mid-800 grains weight range. The lady with the recurve also took a huge bull Giraffe. All these were one-arrow kills. On whitetail? I'd speculate that 35# draw weight is an excellent place to start, but check local laws for any minimum legal draw weight. Do your best to maximize the penetration capability of his arrows within the limits of an arrow weight that will give him an arrow trajectory adequate for the distance he will be shooting. He may have one great advantage: getting very high amounts of FOC with short arrows is much easier. Try to get the FOC at 26% or greater. That will greatly assist the penetration potential of his arrows. Beyond that, coach him on shot angles, what shots he should take, and what shots he should avoid. Work with pictures of animals and have him point out the precise point he would aim at (with a toothpick, pencil point, or similar pointer). Most importantly, he needs to get accustomed to shooting at animals by taking him small game hunting and doing so frequently. Don't overlook taking him hunting for unregulated animals. Even shooting at things like dragonflies helps.

[@ethanknight3970]

I have cutthroat 200-grain, 1.5 inch wide, single-bevel broad heads I plan on using. saw the video of draggindeer outdoors channel of the arrow flight change with single bevels on an unproven/untuned, as it was referred to, arrow. Got me thinking, if I cut/milled out the fuller of the blade of the broad-head, will it remedy the change in arrow flight and still proceed to breach heavy bone without breaking because I know I altered the structural integrity of the broad-head and the weight. theoretically, given Magnus stingers have worked for years, I would think it should work and stay in one piece, but given the rotational forces and stresses acting on the head once it hits its mark, I cannot say for sure if the head won't snap into X-many pieces after meeting the humeral socket joint unlike the one Warb from THP's shot with an un-altered head. Just another mind bone to chew on.

[@tramp413]

Good day and thank you for all your efforts on and for our behalf! Question, has anyone tested to see if a single blade broad head that was cut to create a twist in addition to the single bevel added any mechanical advantage? Stated differently, if the twist of a .22 impacted the performance has anyone tested that in arrows and or broadheads?

[@OldDerelict]

All I can add is that in my extensive testing of the average penetration (when arrows were identical in all aspects except for having either a single-bevel or a double-bevel broadhead), the single-bevel broadheads showed the deeper average penetration. This included results for both heavy-bone impact shots and all-soft-tissue shots and held for both wide-cut and narrow-cut broadheads.

[@theroncorbett7991]

If I understand this correctly the higher mass arrow is gaining penetrating ability the further the target gets due to the loss of velocity as it flys down range which decreases the resistance the target has on the arrow at impact?

[@NODAK-x9x]

Yeah, I challenge you to try and find scientific proof of this anywhere, if you do please tag me.

[@RanchFairy]

@@theroncorbett7991 No arrow increases penetration capability going downrange. They are all slowing down. Reducing penetration capability. HOWEVER, the faster any projectile goes the more it drags - in the air, at impact, etc. The heavier projectile has more mass which it never loses this at impact it has more momentum. The trouble we have in archery is to go faster we reduce mass - typically. So more drag and less mass. Now, Increasing bow poundage is one way to do it as well but the return in speed for 5-10 pounds of draw weight is nominal compared to reducing mass say 100 grains. Which is quite common and easy. Heavier projectiles launch with more momentum and retain it - due to the mass. The ability of anything to KEEP moving through whatever it hits is more dependent on mass. A simple example (a little extreme but) Drop a golf ball and a brick on your foot. I’ve pulled some data. Will do a video on this with the math

[@theroncorbett7991]

My hypothetical 650 grain arrow launched a 240fps has an impact velocity of 230 fps at 40 yards using an arrow ballistics calculator. The same arrow launched at 270 fps doesn’t reach 230 fps until 140 yards. Wouldn’t they penetrate the same assuming the target was equal? Just noodling this info around trying to understand it.

[@RanchFairy]

@@theroncorbett7991 Too many factors to assess on the animal impact. Literally every single shot is one and done. It will literally never happen again in that exact animal, those exact bones, tissue, etc again. This is why we need big data sets, on animals, and compile the data (by the way a video is coming up on surrogate targets vs animal testing). Next week or so. THEORETICALLY. Maybe - but as Ed says “You gotta test it” So until you test it, we just don’t know

[@jonabub]

I'll resume and hope you correct me: You can't give a momentum number for breaching because the momentum is decreasing faster or slower depending on two factors: The resistance in the tissue AND the mass in the arrow. Plus: The resistance will vary depending on the mass distribution since the arrow tail will whip around and cause a lot of additional friction around the shaft if it carries too much mass. I.e. lighter shaft, stiffer shaft, better shaft. What i do wonder is whether arrow length plays a contributing factor since longer shafts will tend to be floppier than shorter ones of the same diameter. And since the tip penetrates the denser media first, the flight characteristics of the finns can't stabilise it anymore, so only the mass, the foc and the bevel form will influence the penetration. So ideally we want more mass, high FOC, a stiff arrow shaft (at least the front part) and ideally the smallest finn-setup possible to reduce drag? Is there other ways to reduce drag during flight? Maybe a shorter arrow when it comes to crossbows?

[@jonabub]

BTW this is inaccessible to us here since we can't hunt, nor would we be allowed to use bow and arrow, we're not even sure whether we'd like it, but we love that you guys look at facts, make them accessible to the public and engage in a fact-based and education-oriented debate. We love that and we'd love to try it out some day so we could use our now theoretical understanding!

[@captaincripple7218]

6:15 I LOVE IT!

[@paulheberling2750]

❤️

[@chrisruzsa2798]

I have been saying this for years too that we will lose archery. Way too many are using target arrows for hunting and its wrong and unethical.

[@african7498]

Now we have the long distance Rambo's - hunting at way to far distances - just because they can hit the target at 100m does not mean the arrow still has sufficient momentum for an ethical kill. And yes - I am sure you have killed an elk at 100m with a 300 gr arrow - same as the guy who accidentally shot a buffalo with a .22 - just proves luck. Unethical hunting.

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@african7498 well that’s another issue entirely hunting is always about how close not how far.

[@ScottWConvid19]

The pro shops are outfitting hunters with the arrows and heads that make them the most profit. It's an industry issue

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@ScottWConvid19 yes I agree but also it’s up to the archers to know. I understand that there are new people and such but archery has places to learn. Minus crossbows there is not really places to learn these but if you have archery background than you can improve crossbows too. But it’s it’s to the operator to learn and know their equipment.

[@ScottWConvid19]

@@chrisruzsa2798 Yes, pro shops probably set up over 60% of new archers. I didn't know any better until I came across Troy's videos. It's up to us to disseminate the physics because the pro shops and the corporate interests are not only pushing for their profits, but they're also fighting the nature of arrow physics because their business model does not include making hunters the most lethal

[@DUCKS2525]

⁠​⁠Ed/Troy, We know the 12 factor setup, 650+ arrow. , 3:1 to 2.6:1 ratio single bevel equals bone breaking. I would love to know, if you decrease the MA single bevel (lower the length/width) as are most single bevel Broadheads on the market, what weight of arrow would be necessary for bone breaking threshold? Basically keeping the 12 factors except changing the Total weight, but decreasing MA what n the single bevel Broadhead. Hope this makes sense! Awesome series! Appreciate you and Dr. Ed’s contribution to the archery hunting world!! Thanks Billy Cody

[@OldDerelict]

I don't know. I have never looked for the Heavy Bone Threshold with a reduced MA single-bevel broadhead. Testing the Heavy Bone Threshold is a focal study requiring an enormous quantity of test shots and data points. I doubt anyone (with the desire, commitment, and time) will ever again have access to the number of animals I did or that they would bear the financial burden such testing requires. However, testing presented in the 2022 Supplemental Reports (in the Reports section on ABF's website) hints at the performance difference between reduced MA single bevels and high MA single bevels. Though testing is with arrow weights far above 650 grains (in the range of 1100 grains), there are no passthrough shots with the lower MA single-bevel, while the high MA single-bevel broadheads consistently gave complete passthrough shots.

[@DUCKS2525]

@@OldDerelict Great response! Thank you so much! If the average was in the range of 1100 grains with no pass thru, tells me that the Lower MA drastically slows momentum. Lower than 2.59:1

[@RanchFairy]

@@DUCKS2525 Well buddy - you got it straight from Ed Ashby!

[@flyfin108]

there has been study in Finland (eu) with ~100 hunters that did both firearms and bow hunts, they resulted 6% no recovery on both platforms, tracking varied bit more. i think this tells more about quality of the selected hunters we cant hunt larger pray here with bows yet, and the shooting exam for deer and hogs are too flimsy in my honest opinion, just required to hit target at 20yards three times, arrows dosnt need to be straight

[@T-Mak-s7x]

Hearing what Australia is doing makes me even happier Faldo kicked Norman’s butt in 1996 Masters.

[@jacobcutter8962]

The bullet thing is interesting. Is it because the medium it is trying to penetrate is mostly water? Like we are 70% water, right? If I’m not mistaken aren’t fluids more resistant against things traveling at higher speeds? I assume it’s more complex than just that, but I’m just kinda thinking out loud.

[@OldDerelict]

That's a large factor-fluid dynamics. It's why we see blood-shot tissue with high-velocity rifle bullets. Based on the excellent work by Dr. Frank Chamberlin on live animals in the post-WWII era, we know that hydrostatic tissue shock first appears (at the cellular level) with impact levels of 2500 fps. No arrow has a hydrostatic shock component.

[@jacobcutter8962]

@@OldDerelict OK cool. Thanks for the reply! I appreciate you spreading your knowledge. I have enjoyed listening and learning new things.

[@mattmay6001]

You two have ruined me. I was a speed freak until seeing a video with the hunting public guys last year and now ive become a data nerd trying to find the hardest hitting arrow i can build

[@mackstrate6235]

Or you could quit worrying about how heavy your arrow is and just shoot your bow. His theories on NA game are nearly irrelevant if we stop taking bad shots. Simple as that.

[@bennypapino3670]

​@@mackstrate6235do animals ever move when you try to shoot them? When you have the choice between the arrow that should work a lot of the time or the arrow that you know will penetrate closer to 100 percent of the time, why would you choose the shittier option? It just doesn't make sense not to. You owe it to the animal to make the better choice.

[@mackstrate6235]

@@bennypapino3670 Animals moving is literally the reason a faster arrow is better…..

[@chrisruzsa2798]

@@mackstrate6235 no it’s not animals moving is literally the reason for the plan b arrow build. Once you have the right arrow weight you can practise and shoot your bow all you like. Go watch 1 day worth of bow hunting shows movies and count the total number of complete pass through there are I think out 9 hours of primos bow huntings I saw maybe 3 complete pass through hunts. That’s over 80 animals killed with only 3 being great hits.

[@mackstrate6235]

@@chrisruzsa2798 I don’t understand your argument? Are you for or against what you saw in your 9hrs of video watching?

[@bbmas1930]

The light arrow side of the debate always argues that shot placement negates all other factors. Well two of Chris's shots on the second buffalo were very well placed but it was clear they'd only gone in maybe 5-10cm. If they'd been legit arrows they'd have been fatal without the need for Chris to terrorise the animal for the next 20 minutes. He laughed and chuckled throughout the whole thing even while the guide was explaining to him (with the subtitles on you can hear him clearly) that is why we use heavy setups on heavy ribbed animals. He giggled earlier on that he was going to use a light arrow and a mechanical if the guide would let him. By saying "let him" he knew it wasn't the ethical thing to do but he was going to try for it anyway. Seems he only got vetoed on the use of the mechanical. Like other guys on here I commented on his vid asking that he take it down, knowing full well the climate against bowhunters here. Apparently all he did was slag off the Australian commenters as haters on instagram . His delayed re-edit of the video removed the unrecovered frontal shot and the Dingo kill because he'll probably get prosecuted over that. I'm sure he only finally removed the vid competely when he realised that he was irreparably damaging the launch of his over priced (and effective only against protected dogs) arrow series. I with many others now wait in New South Wales, probably the Australian state where the political forces against bow hunting will be the strongest once they organise, to see if I'm allowed to pick up a bow in future. Ed is a legend for naming him. He looks to be as incensed about it as we are.

[@danielely7437]

I’m here to say thank you. As an archer I want my rights protected.

[@Wickedywack]

I wonder, what's the equation of lowest speed to mass that WON'T breach heavy bone? If 650gr going 125 fps and 720 going 119 fps still were sufficient, where's the floor? Could a 1000gr arrow going 60 fps still work? I'm curious as to what that equation would look like.

[@RanchFairy]

@@Wickedywack Read Ed’s write up on Papua New Guinea 4,000 grain arrows! It’s wild

[@fisherman_rue2403]

So us, wimpy archers who draw below 70lbs benefit more from adding weight to the arrow to gain momentum? From what I gathered, there's not been a bow tested that is "fast" enough to overcome the need for the mass to be at or near 650gr to achieve heavy bone penetration?

[@RanchFairy]

@@fisherman_rue2403 Every arrow gains momentum by adding mass. It’s also easier to add 50% mass than it is to increase speed 50% My data shows a 50% increase in mass only results in a 20-25% reduction in speed Mass x velocity = momentum. More mass more momentum.

[@fisherman_rue2403]

@@RanchFairy Thank you!

[@kriswarren6202]

Troy this last weekend I shot a bull elk @ 35 yards with a Magnus stinger. 74 lbs 29" gold tip FOC 125 grn BH. I hit behind the shoulder high in the vitals. Double lungs but in the too 10% of the lungs forward. Arrow broke and the fletch was lodged in the far shoulder almost 100% pass through. 1.5 hours later I was able to shoot him again @ 40 yards quartered. Liver lungs. The 2nd shot was lethal in seconds. This is the longest I have ever had an animal live after being hit with a stinger. My favorite BH. I'm slightly lost. Had two Xs in lung. Had tremendous blood. Was this a successful plan B hit on a super tuff animal? I hate to have to rethink my set up and the whole shootin match.

[@RanchFairy]

@@kriswarren6202 High first shot. That one is tough. On every animal on earth! They don’t want to die man. One elk doesn’t make a career - you said it yourself. The longest ever. It’s gonna happen again. Realistically.

[@progradepainting3755]

@@RanchFairy have you even killed an elk yet Troy?

[@jimscott64]

I would really like to hear some talk about distances when shooting arrows. For example should a person be shooting game at 100 yards or more with a bow?? Does the arrow maintain the performance to do it's job at those kinds of distances?? I would be interesting to hear some info about that. I have known a lot of shooters who are taking shots at deer and elk with arrows at 80, 100 or more yards. How will that arrow perform at those kinds of distances??

[@rohlfing63]

The answer is "that depends". While personally I'd never advocate for such long shots on a living animal, in theory with appropriate placement and appropriate momentum those can be kill shots. Many people taking those shots have no business doing so - insufficient momentum and far to many variables to ensure good placement. Shooting 100 yds on a stationary target on a nice clear range is not that difficult, but I'd never do it on a living animal in the field, just my personal choice.

[@zhickman338]

If you hit what you’re aiming at it’s just fine. Animal movement and skill is the biggest issue. I’ve had pass throughs with 1.5 Sevrs at 100, and 85 on deer and antelope. Bowmars channel is a representation of what is possible.

[@TradTech]

Hornady solid brass VS a core bond type?

[@OldDerelict]

There are tradeoffs with each.

[@Guipago55]

Thank you Dr Ed for bringing up the South Australian plight, I'm not in that state, but I, as you, can see this is going to escalate with all the 'woke' POS getting into politics.

[@scottyjames2432]

Is there a reduced heavy bone threshold for the Oklahoma 100# behemoth? Or just send the telephone pole? Seems overkill. I’m not arguing facts, just wondering if it’s a different “bone”?

[@RanchFairy]

@@scottyjames2432 so the scapular ridge on a 100 pound behemoth whitetail is quite thick. The humerus should you misjudge range is thick and ROUND giving no ideal spot to gain purchase and start to penetrate. More likely to skip. From a tree stand, the shoulder has multiple ribs BEHIND IT (fact) and the spine creating a multi layer, completely unpredictable penetration cycle. You might consider that “bone” is rarely one bone (fact). Add it that bones are flexible with attachment points (joints) or the animal couldn’t walk. Thus the bones are not sitting there like a brick. Quite elastic moving when hit, moving because they are hit and eat up the arrow impact.

[@scottyjames2432]

@@RanchFairythanks. So 651.

[@paulheberling2750]

Ed worked so hard to make bowhunting legal in Africa and Chris has worked so little to get it banned in Australia 🙂‍↔️

[@RanchFairy]

@@paulheberling2750 Chris wasn’t trying to do that. To be fair

[@paulheberling2750]

@@RanchFairynot outright, but in the sense that he refused to change his set up after multiple warnings and feedback over the course of time..

[@RanchFairy]

@@paulheberling2750 I cannot fix him for not listening. He posted a bunch of comments and other podcasts about KE, gel, and ANATOMY that were really off base. I actually commented on those and on a couple “cool guy podcasts” on insta clips. I asked to be on the podcasts to help clear up the confusion. Then he found out. We’d have helped him. Everyone thinks this is a war. It is not There are target arrows and I cannot beat Chris at that There are maximized hunting arrows. Like this. Ballistic tips and target bullets are one thing for a job - Barnes X and harder soft points are another.

[@Ferrell-t8y]

​@@RanchFairyI can explain it to you, but I can't understand it FOR you.

[@RanchFairy]

@@Ferrell-t8y I’m ready to hear it

[@robertcraig9484]

Now that makes sense to me guys got a question though I have a daughter who has a 24in draw length and only shooting 38lbs for mid west whitetail ky in what kind of weight arrow I'm running a 400spine 225 up front on a 24.25in arrow at 418gr total arrow weight as of now until I can order 300gr heads

[@zhickman338]

That is more than adequate, if it’s tuned you’re just going to screw everything up by adding more weight up front.

[@OldDerelict]

We have several documented examples of lady bowhunters with short draw lengths successfully using compound bows as light 38# draw weight with penetration-maximized arrows in the range of 550 grains on animals as large as Eland. One was a long quartering-away shot on an Eland, which yielded four feet of penetration. We also have documented examples of lady bowhunters taking Cape buffalo with a 50# compound and a 48# recurve using penetration-maximized arrows in the mid-800 grains weight range. The lady with the recurve also took a huge bull Giraffe. All these were one-arrow kills. On whitetail? I'd speculate that 35# draw weight is an excellent place to start, but check local laws for any minimum legal draw weight. Do your best to maximize the penetration capability of her arrows within the limits of an arrow weight that will give her an arrow trajectory adequate for the distance she will be shooting. She may have one great advantage: getting very high amounts of FOC with short arrows is much easier. Try to get the FOC at 26% or greater. That will greatly assist the penetration potential of her arrows. Beyond that, coach her on shot angles, what shots she should take, and what shots she should avoid. Work with pictures of animals and have her point out the precise point she would aim at (with a toothpick, pencil point, or similar pointer). Most importantly, she needs to get accustomed to shooting at animals by taking her small game hunting and doing so frequently. Don't overlook taking her hunting for unregulated animals. Even shooting at things like dragonflies helps.

[@robertcraig9484]

@@OldDerelict ok thank you it's been a rough go for her. The local shop built her a .500 spine arrow and expandable broad head setup of 297 grain. I watched her shoot her first deer beautiful shot at 12yds arrow stopped on impact found the arrow about 10yds from impact blood on the broad head and nothing on the shaft found the deer the next day up and feeding had a nice t3 shaped slice in the hide

[@doylethorn9251]

Great info. I wonder if Chris Bee is proud of the fact that one of his videos was used to outlaw Archery in Australia. After all, he was one of those casting stones about the Ashby study. The Ashby study legalized Archery in Africa and Chris Bee study outlawed Archery in Australia. That's karma!

[@progradepainting3755]

@@doylethorn9251 Chris bee didn’t outlaw it, Australians outlawed it. Just like they did with guns, and just like they did with the lock downs.

[@Guipago55]

@@progradepainting3755 The unfortunate part is his vid gave credence to the political party that wanted to make a name for themselves by using bowhunting as their political agenda to get people to see that 'they get things done', the scum always pick on a sport that has no monetary backing.

[@zhickman338]

I think it’s good these videos get out. His setup is fairly standard. So if Australia or whoever wants to legislate some parameters for arrow weight and broadhead selection it would be a net positive.

[@Muskiehunter92]

@@zhickman338 For certain species sure... Smaller animals like deer can be taken with 400 grain arrows with zero issues though. I personally build my arrows to hit my desired speed of 275-280 and whatever that weight is, so be it. I want accuracy before anything else and that 270-280fps range has given me all my most accurate arrow builds in target archery and now hunting as well. The elephant in the room here that also needs to be mentioned is that waay to many bowhunters suck at shooting. Like, really suck. They pick up their bow a few weeks before season and shoot 100 arrows and think they are all ready to go... nope. Gotta shoot year round, or at least all summer and 100 arrows a week at the very least. More realistically it should be like 500 arrows a week. People should be going to league nights, 3d shoots, target shoots etc to hone their skill. Otherwise just use a crossbow IMO... as much as i hate them, they do save animals getting injured from crappy bowhunters. One thing I do like about social media surrounding bowhunting is it is bringing target practice/shooting more to the forefront. Tac events, 3d shoots etc... its getting more bowhunters into shooting their bow year round. Social media has helped in that aspect I think. It has hurt in other ways for sure but there is "some" positives at least... but that said, I do believe there are still way too many people shooting 4-5" groups at 20 thinking they can take 40-50 yard shots... no arrow is going to save you if you can't hit the side of a barn. IMO use whatever arrow you want for the most part, unless it is very large game which needs the penetrating power of a heavy arrow. I do believe heavy arrows have their place, and so do "medium" or "normal" weight arrows. I do not like super light arrows because they suck and are inaccurate and inefficient. On a deer or even elk its not necessary to use a 650 gn arrow and some people may opt for better trajectory and faster time to target... and less chance of catching branches. Its a balance. No extreme is better than the other. However i do think if you are shooting over 300 fps you are giving away too much energy. The bow needs to deposit energy into the arrow and if the arrow is too light the bow reacts almost like a dry fire. They are loud, inaccurate and inefficient at that point... which is why i always go back to my 270-280 fps rule which gives me a perfect all around arrow. We live in a world of extremes now and we should try to remember that a "happy medium" can sometimes be the best answer. Anyways, that is my opinion on the matter... Good luck this year!

[@285JSB]

It drives me crazy knowing the vast amount of damage that youtubers like Bowmar and ChrisB are doing to the archery community. The very community they have made their careers on they are simultaneously destroying. Be responsible, guys.

[@progradepainting3755]

@@285JSB nah, Josh is one of the best bow hunters that’s ever lived. You must be living in bizzaro world if you believe that.

[@hunterbragg2566]

Man if u think either one of those guys are doing it wrong then ur sadly mistaking. Them guys have done a lot more for the bow community then a lot of others have. We are all hunters and the only ones that I see saying bad stuff is ones who have less subscribers then them so stop being jealous of others. Both guys are doing very well for themselves and probably don’t care much about what one lil subscriber said.

[@Heavy_Arrow312]

Bowmar was convicted of poaching......that's a great look for the bowhunting community. Chris Bee is just an arrogant ass. He's a hell of a shooter, but to much ego to learn anything

[@285JSB]

@@progradepainting3755 how many shots did it take Josh to bring down that water buffalo? Keep in mind it was a mechanical Brodhead and a light Arrow.

[@285JSB]

@hunterbragg2566 Nobody's Perfect, and I'm not saying they haven't contributed. But they are causing damage to the archery community. Did you not hear what Dr. Ashby was saying was going on in South africa? Hunters are losing their bow hunting privileges, and a ChrisB video is being used as evidence against us. Just a matter of time before it spreads to the US

[@CATfishTONY]

Analogy of a bank vault door you can take your fist and slam it into the door really fast and it might shut if you take the same body in the same hand and lean into the door I promise you the mass will shut it same hand same body it's just the speed and power of moving that mass forward you can't stop it

[@Powerdad50000]

Chris should never have uploaded that video. I think he knows it too, but he has sponsors to appease. The comments were glorious.

[@Outdoor-Tactics]

Which video? I'd like to give it a watch.

[@a.j.taylor4401]

​@@Outdoor-Tacticshe deleted it pretty quick.

[@darrylcopeland6775]

@@Outdoor-Tactics it was tough to watch if I’m being honest. And you can see the guide didn’t want him to shoot that arrow. Knowing it was in adequate equipment I don’t think he should’ve allowed it to happen.

[@Outdoor-Tactics]

@@darrylcopeland6775 Ah, interesting. That's a shame to hear for the animals sake, but looking through the arrow setups he's running, it was bound to happen.

[@a.j.taylor4401]

@@darrylcopeland6775 Chris said they made him use a single bevel other wise he would have used a mechanical. I agree they should have never let him use that setup to begin with. These young arrogant guys like to think they know it all and don't like to listen to the old guys like Dr. Ed who have done this for a long time.

[@moneyandtimefreedom3352]

Chris has always seemed like a good guy and probably is. He set back bow hunting in Australia and having that video played in parliament is absolutely terrible. Others in other countries that are slowly chipping away the right to hunt will use this as a weapon against us. Sadly Chris and his guide were more concerned about content than doing the right thing.

[@richardring7762]

Momentum is to a hunting arrow as stamina is to a man’s se*ual performance. You can go as fast as you possibly can, but without stamina or momentum you aren’t accomplishing the goal on the target.

[@OldDerelict]

Most interesting analogy. I'll try to remember that one!

[@dennybirchfield]

Does the doc have his own you tube ranch?

[@dennybirchfield]

@@OldDerelict dang cuz that would be a channel I would watch it could just be hunting stories from the past you have so much life experience in this industry spread that wisdom bubba

[@Trickydickysticky]

So really the ideal is to have the highest momentum possible at actually the lowest speed upon impact as to avoid the resistance (by speed squared) from the target. That's why spears work so good despite complete lack of KE eh? The would be most efficient way to maximize the use of the energy stored in your limbs for the sake of pushing a high efficiency broadhead through the animal.

[@OldDerelict]

A few decades ago, a few of us took turns throwing a genuine Massi spear across the screens of my chronograph. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I mentioned it in one of the early reports or articles. I do remember that our average momentum for that spear was ten times greater than the momentum of even the 80# compound used in the Natal Study. I would have loved to test that with one of the Massi warriors. I'm sure they would generate even more significant momentum with that spear.

[@Trickydickysticky]

@OldDerelict thanks for the reply Ed, that's very helpful and interesting. I have made a few primitive spears myself- when Tim wells came out with his light spear called the "sparrow" I made a segmented primitive takedown version of the same concept to play with. It was fletched with full height turkey feathers- with my completely unscientific method of determining FPS I figured on the low end I was getting at least 8x the momentum of my arrows. I did think that alot of that momentum would get eaten up by the other factors that would hinder penetration such as diameter/length of the shaft and flex upon impact. --- I do have a question if you manage to see this response- a 1" wide 3:1 broadhead basically has a vertex angle of 19°. When we cut a tanto tip on that the primary blade angle doesn't change so my question is this: If we make the tanto tip a little wider on a shorter point to increase what would have been the vertex angle of said triangle- would the geometry of tje the main blades which do the bulk of the cutting in effect increase mechanical advantage? I've made some of my own broadheads using this principle but don't have anything bigger than whitetails to shoot, good results but I've just got no real data to support the idea. Is it not proportional to edge angle then just the length of the head? Honestly I've wondered why not a 4:1 or longer point concerning the want for more penetration, or just the same 3:1 point shrunk down to 7/8th inch wide or smaller to really maximize penetration (though honestly you'd suffer from a narrower wound channel somewhat I suppose) Thanks for your reply, I want you to know your work has made me a more ethical/effective hunter and has helped feed my family! So thanks for all that you've done!

[@OldDerelict]

​@@Trickydickysticky ABF is currently testing different Tanto tip designs, examining the tip strength and whether there's a Tanto design that minimizes 'bone skid' on angular impacts. Watch ABF's website. Once we have determined the best Tanto tip design, we will post information about it on their website.

[@Glaciershark]

Let’s go!

[@hrkjcl1]

Can't you just use bullet ballistic to explain arrows? It's kinda like explaining why a .50 cal has more penetration over a .556 mass carries more kentic energy but wouldn't to much mass counter the effects to?

[@glennl9630]

❤❤

[@MichaelLakota-vc4tk]

Kids these days either don’t get it…..or they choose to Deny it. Let me throw Another facet into the mix. Ask any older adults who grew up duck hunting when lead was the the material for “shot” and then they mandated Steel shot which was extremely faster yet extremely Less effective at killing ducks. Now….NOW everyone knows that slower heavier bird shot will out perform all steel shot loads at ALL Distances. FACT. .!! Prove me wrong. PROVE ME WRONG!!!! YOU CAN NOT- YOU Will NEVER BE ABLE TO PROVIDE ANY FACTS THAT WILL DEBUNK THE TRUTH OF PHYSICS !! These Kids just don’t get It because they didn’t have to live through it. THANKS TROY and THANK YOU DR. ED for trying to educate the less educated. 👍🏻👍🏻🇺🇸

[@flueckigerthomas66]

MythBusters did a experiment with a pong pong ball in super sonic and if it is lethal! cant find the video on yt sorry.. spoiler it is not! not enough mass = momentum

[@Crayz919]

You can kill a Grizzly or Buffalo with a CHIEF A.J.S ELITE SLING BOW but that dont mean shoot it in the shoulder cause that wil be a problem and i doubt u can shoot a 650+ grain arrow so you have u have perfect broadside behind shoulder shots or you're screwed

[@TradTech]

How can you not donate? Not an annual salary but "something" and everything will help. The donation isn't about the technical aspect of mass, velocity, momentum to build adult arrows. It's about support for bowhunting around the globe. Chris Bee turning that water buffalo into a pin cushion with a 450 grain arrow because HE said his choice was the best. He's a self proclaimed expert. FK CB.

[@FISHUNTREECOUNTRY]

"Get your fingers warmed up"

[@Cummins-]

Simply put if I throw a pebble at you it won't hurt if I throw a brick at you your definitely going to the emergency room this how explained to my nephew and the connection was made. It's really not that hard to understand. Common sense needs to start being taught again cause it's obviously not so common anymore

[@ronlongwellphoto]

👏

[@stephenballard3759]

At 400 fps, the mass will be 640 gr. Going on record now, lol!

[@driftlesshunter9200]

The Bowmars are releasing South Africa bow hunts to help promote their Beast broadheads. I find the shots taken to be very unethical & wonder how many animals have been wounded? I find the hunts to be a bit disgusting, & I am an avid bowhunter. Imagine how non-hunters feel.

[@RanchFairy]

@@driftlesshunter9200 We will see how that plays out

[@progradepainting3755]

@@RanchFairy we’re already seeing how it played out, and they have been racking up a huge kill list of animals with the beast head. It’s quickly becoming one of the best mechanical broad-heads ever made. All you have to do is watch Troy. Sable, zebra, Cape buffalo, all with gigantic wounds, and catastrophic blood loss. So what are you waiting for?

[@RanchFairy]

@@progradepainting3755 So we are waiting for some of the multiple hits on cape buff and Chris Bee type stuff to happen. Which it has. And the governments to use the videos against Bowhunting. Until that happens. We have no issue. But if it does (south Australia is banning Bowhunting in December) alls well.

[@JohnSmith-zs6pm]

@@progradepainting3755And I bet you think Howard Hill was an ethical hunter too 😂

[@zhickman338]

@@JohnSmith-zs6pm or Fred Bear 😂