Ranking EVERY Command Grab in Smash Ultimate

Command grabs are often some of the more iconic attacks on Super Smash Bros. characters: Kirby and his Inhale, Ganondorf with Flame Choke, Bowser and Flying Slam, etc. They also tend to be very good, so a Command Grab Tier List that pits them all against each other should be...interesting, to say the least, and I'm sure everyone will agree with the list.
Enjoy!
______________________________________________
Main channel: / mockrocktv
Twitter: / mrmockrock​
Patreon: / mockrock​
Twitch: / mockrocktwitch​
Business email: [e-mail]
Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock
______________________________________________
Music used:
"MockRock Is Here (Relaxed)" - MockRock
"MockRock is Here" - MockRock
"Jungle Hijinks" - Super Smash Bros. Ultimate OST (Original from Donkey Kong Country OST)
"Battle! (Wild Pokemon)" - Pokemon Sun and Moon OST
"Mystical Forest" - Tekken 6 OST
"Fodlan Winds" - Fire Emblem: Three Houses OST
"Halland Dalarna" - Minecraft Dungeons OST
All original music, as well as its stems, are available for download to patrons, KZbin members, and Twitch subscribers
______________________________________________
Thanks for watching!
#SuperSmashBros #Nintendo #SmashUltimate

[@MockRockTalk]

Thanks for watching! A few clarifications/corrections: 1. Falcon Dive is actually the same startup frame as Dark Dive, in practice it tends to hit more attacks because of the sharper trajectory you can take but I got this wrong. 2. Another thing I got wrong: Byleth. That thing is definitely at least B tier and arguably A lol, took watching more Leo matches to become a true believer. 3. People on my Discord server and the comments here brought up Kazuya's Gates of Hell. Originally, I decided to exclude it from this list because I considered it to be more of an "extra grab" rather than a command grab, it uses the grab button which isn't standard for command grabs in Smash (they're generally triggered with the special button). However, the comments have made a good case for including it, so consider it to be an A tier thanks to its good damage output and excellent positioning, even working as an instant KO against some of the roster's weaker recoveries. 4. Ridley's Skewer was _technically_ changed in a balance patch to be coded as a hit grab, but this was most likely just a convenient way to stop Ridley teams from looping Skewer on opponents (hit grabs victims get the same short-term grab invulnerability as if they'd been grabbed normally). It clearly doesn't actually work like a grab. 5. I've seen a few comments asking about Little Mac's KO Punch, Ryu's charged Focus Attack, etc. Those are unblockable attacks, not command grabs, the concepts are somewhat similar but the opponent is never put into any kind of "grabbed" state. These kinds of casual tier list videos that I can whip up in a couple days are fun to do, that's not all MockRockTalk is going to have on it but definitely expect more. Let me know what you thought of this one, as well as any future ones you'd be interested in seeing! -Main channel: kzbin.info -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock

[@monkeyjosh339]

Is this your main channel now

[@MrMockRock]

@@monkeyjosh339 No, why would you think that?

[@monkeyjosh339]

@@MrMockRock you said Mockrock was your second channel

[@MockRockTalk]

@@monkeyjosh339 Oh, that was just a copy/paste error, fixed it, thanks!

[@foks0054]

@@MockRockTalk I love your other channel but this one is low key better

[@No-AHH393]

“COMMAND GRABS ARE BROKEN!” Screams my friend as I monkey flip across the stage for the 100th time in a row

[@chrisrose4703]

switch monkey flip out with minecart and you have me vs my friends

[@ayanoakemi2973]

Also my friend when I used Bowser side B a LOT

[@ThePi314Man]

My brother calls it face fucking and warns everyone they will be face fucked at least once before the end of the game. Not inaccurate.

[@keiferz2983]

Wario’s Chomp should be S all the reasons you said and the fact eating certain projectiles reduces the timer for his waft(best move). Especially eating his bike, which he can spawn infinitely, also speeds up the charge on his waft.

[@tovvaar]

Yoshi's egg release time time depends on the opponent damage, being really useful near the ledge, making what I call the Yoshi's abortion.

[@MattDustyParker]

Great video. Solid ranking through and through, no arguments here really.

[@SuperSaga2191]

A little fact, Robin's down special does more damage if you use it from behind your opponent!

[@dmillz5501]

I get your reasoning, but joker up b is one of the best combo extenders. It allows for literally free damage after you finish a combo. And as a recovery tool it's amazing. In comparison to the rest of the list it may not be the best, but I think it deserves at least c tier.

[@Lightrider-oy2qb]

Buster wolf with the "complex" input

[@MockRockTalk]

Complex relative to essential every other input in Smash? It absolutely is, it's always going to take at least a few extra frames to come out compared to regular inputs.

[@alphie1765]

Your content is just the best.

[@aidenzorn8322]

I’d like to see a tier list on out of shield options. I understand that this is a large umbrella of topics, so limiting the pool in some way would be necessary; maybe only talking about each character’s fastest or most effective oos option or only talking about up b or up smash oos. Any way you slice it, I’d like to hear your opinions on a lot of these options

[@MockRockTalk]

Solid idea. You're right that a pure "out of shield tier list" video would be a huge pain even in this more casual format, but I do have a big Google doc of video ideas for this channel and one of them is for "The Top 10 Out Of Shield Options" or something similar. That one might actually show up reasonably quickly as a tie-in video for one of the MockRock entries I'm working on right now, no promises on that though.

[@JasonsHoerbuchstube]

K Rool Up B OOS is like S+ Tier for sure

[@Command.]

gren oos f tier

[@benraber2793]

If he didn’t limit it then he’d have to rank every up smash and up-b plus more 😂

[@SeriousStriker]

G&W Up-B goes brrrrr

[@dillpicklestudios4319]

“I think we’re gonna put joker in F tier” Words I never thought I’d hear

[@OrigamiAhsoka]

Fr

[@EliminateM]

It also osnt even f teir, if you mess up the chain grab you can change it into this move and it is free damage even though you made a mistake. Yoshi's is A teir, I'm done with this shit bye. JK

[@Aerovyn]

I appreciate you putting in footage of all the moves as you talk about them. Too many tier list videos on youtube have me staring at these multicolored blocks for an hour.

[@MockRockTalk]

That's because adding the footage makes these videos take like 5 times as long to produce haha! I agree that it improves them though, appreciate it.

[@hernandeznestor7685]

He is not an average lazy youtuber

[@UnSaxon51]

"You can really describe it like a lot of Incineroar's kit, right? It's a SUPER good move... but it's attached to Incineroar." QFT

[@Georgefloydthesneedster]

I have heard top players saying that if Incineroar was faster, hed be top tier. Him being my secondary, it would be a dream come true

[@Underworlder5]

@@Georgefloydthesneedster seems to be in teh same situation as zangief. devastating when he gets in range, but he has trouble getting in that range in the first place and is easily walled off

[@andyblanton6570]

It's just like Melee DK, and Brawl and Smash 4 Ganondorf

[@Dribin]

After watching tons of fights from SkyJay, I personally think that Incineroar in the right hands is really a high tier character. His side B is only one of many great moves from his kit.

[@Mech3001]

This aged well, and he didn’t even get buffed

[@LilyWater84]

After hearing you talk about “book”, I want a item tier list. Things like Jrs mech, diddys banana, peaches turnip pull (including bomb and Saturn), the bombs, book, and ~~the greatest projectile~~ peanut. (I mean I guess pacs items could count if you want too)

[@MockRockTalk]

Good idea, added to the list I keep of potential videos!

[@SeriousStriker]

Don’t forget Gyro

[@LilyWater84]

@@SeriousStriker I didn’t lol, just wanted to give some example of obvious and really vague ones (like peanut)

[@diegovaldez927]

@@LilyWater84 I'll give you one more vague and rear, Sheik's granade

[@thatguystandingbehindyou0_0]

wario’s bike is always underrated and forgotten because it’s a heavy item, rly wish he still had tires tho

[@peterthanos2209]

I would love to see a character items tier list. Stuff like rob’s gyro, or diddy’s banana.

[@BackpackBanjo]

What are all the options? Mega Man's blade, Peach's downB, Robin's sword/tomes, Banjo's grenade, Villager's tree, K. Rool's crown? I must be forgetting some but there aren't a ton.

[@matheustran8009]

@@BackpackBanjo Sword fighter Mii’s chakram, and possibly the belmont’s holy water? And also all of Pacman’s things, Snake’s grenade and box. All of the link’s bombs, wario’s bike

[@IIIISai]

The S tier items are Links Bomb, diddys banana, Gyro, Galaxian and Bell from pacman, and apple, and key, the Hydrant, snakes grenade, anything i didn't list isn't necessarily bad, but i only listed S tier items

[@matheustran8009]

@@IIIISai I don’t think the hydrant is an item

[@IIIISai]

@@matheustran8009 true

[@ShinxBOOM247]

21:45 honestly, I agree with this placement for space pirate rush, though there's one extra thing you didn't bring up which contributes to that: if you do it in the air and then land during the aerial end lag animation, the game forces Ridley into the full grounded endlag animation on top of whatever endlag he already went through in the air. This generally makes it even more disadvantageous to whiff in a recovery scenario if you try to use it to get back on stage directly, even to the point that you can be forced into both the full aerial and grounded end lag at certain heights

[@chromaqmelee]

I’m so glad I waited to comment about misnaming falcon dive, I had everything typed and ready but wanted to wait just in case. Good catch, almost got me

[@MockRockTalk]

👀

[@Marth66666]

@@MockRockTalk you’re so fucking hot

[@FalcoVille]

I love Incineroar's Alolan Whip. It satisfies me in every possible way.

[@lightningfox0654]

Nice name!

[@nonachyourbusiness1164]

In... EVERY possible way?

[@haysdixon6227]

Non' AchYourbusiness puuuuure satisfaction

[@sheridan5175]

@@nonachyourbusiness1164 Yes.

[@ChristmasPterodactyl]

Gross

[@Delzethin]

Come on, man, don't undersell Nosferatu like that. There're a few details in its favor that got overlooked: - Its hitbox is _huge_ and fully disjointed, making it harder to actively contest when it comes out. It actually has so much vertical reach that you can use it while you're below a platform and still catch people standing on them, keeping Robin out of range of getup attacks or other such options. - The hitbox is active for 4 frames and Robin is fully intangible for those frames, making it even more reliable as a callout. And the big one: - The healing _scales_ if Robin has more damage than the opponent. You might get around 12% healed if the percents are even (or if Robin has less), but if Robin has, say, 100% more damage (like if they just took a stock), it heals 25% instead. And that's not even the cap--land it with a difference of 150% and it heals close to 40! Ever seen damage swings of 50 or more from a single move? Nos can do that. All on a character whose projectiles and sword swings are very good at conditioning opponents to shield and leave themselves vulnerable to it. Or you can just confirm into it from Arcfire at any percent.

[@MockRockTalk]

Sure, those are all valid points, but it's still ultimately inconsistent, and doesn't offer much advantage, both of which are traits I value really heavily for moves like this. Given the choice between a move that does 30% damage and sends the opponent nowhere, and one that does 5% and pops them into the air, I'd choose the latter almost every time, one good juggle sequence in a set can make up for that damage difference several times over. Robin's also a slow character who largely plays a keepaway game, not the archetype that gets the most use out of a command grab, and again, there's the lack of consistency, and consistency is a trait that I think is _super_ important. In the grand scheme of all Ultimate's moves, I'd still call Nosferatu pretty good, but idk how many other characters would choose to intentionally disable their command grab to get a book in their hand, whereas with a lot of Robin players that's a pretty established part of their gameplan.

[@ivrydice0954]

Nos vs good mashers though. 0_0

[@Delzethin]

@@ivrydice0954 Mashing actually doesn't help much against it! At lower percents it can get you out a little earlier, but if you have any significant amount of %, it's increasingly negligible.

[@ivrydice0954]

@@Delzethin @ 0% you lose 5 frames of the grab's duration per input with a 155 frame duration It takes 31 inputs to reduce that timer to zero. Which cuts down an 2 and a half second cutscene to about a 1/3 of a second. I think that counts as more than a little earlier, but what can really do about semantics. At 120% it becomes impossible to mash out, but that also makes it heal less unless Robin is also at really high percents, so kind of a double edged sword.

[@bionicallyacomputer292]

yea

[@raincastmusic]

As a Byleth main i would argue (in all respect though) that its B tier You can chain it into a down air, neutral air or up air (around 130% for a kill confirm) And its a great jab lock follow-up

[@vanity4865]

Agreed

[@cesarTorres-lj1df]

Im pretty sure is S tier

[@junknoodles1028]

Yeah there is no way king ddds suck is better than byleths tether. Even in context. It forces your opponent to avoid being above you in any context and it also has the longest recovery range of any other tether in the game. Kinda sounds like moth rock doesn’t play byleth

[@bellure4971]

It's basically agreed as S tier now lol

[@juniperrodley9843]

Yeah fast forward a year, it's considered one of the best Up Bs in the game now lmao

[@penguinmcswaggn2936]

After summit everyone can agree Diddy’s monkey flip is a definite s tier

[@kalecraft8906]

Or anyone who played other Smash games

[@iantaakalla8180]

Diddy Kong’s Monkey Flip is only bad before Brawl.

[@matthewbartlett3442]

@ian is that because it didn’t exist

[@guacodile2528]

@@matthewbartlett3442 r/woooosh hype?

[@whereisspacebar2991]

18:56 looks like someone forgot the grappling hook's most important utility aspect- it can grab items! Definitely belongs in S tier. Great video apart from that!

[@HippityhoppityGnW]

Funi

[@whereisspacebar2991]

@@HippityhoppityGnW thanks, I tried.

[@justicetaylor3050]

I love Samus's tether grab. Ik its not a command grab, but it's utility when used as a pivot grab to counter a landing or how it rewards way better then it should

[@jaidenpearson8494]

It’s a tether grab, which just means a regular grab with long range

[@SuperSilver7591]

Incin main here, glad he's S tier in SOMETHING

[@Saskaruto16]

If his initial dash and run speed were even just average and he could chose whether or not to do the second part of up b (like Cloud) he would probably be high tier. He's incredibly strong just absolutely crippled by his speed.

[@SuperSilver7591]

@@Saskaruto16 slowest ground speed in the game BAYBEEE (even tho he's actually a pretty fast pokemon faster than Pichu if you look at stats :/)

[@Saskaruto16]

@@SuperSilver7591 It really doesn't make any sense. It's like they tried to make Zangief but didn't understand why Zangief works in SF and that it won't work for Incineroar. He needs to be just fast enough that with good positioning he can destroy you off of a neutral read with his command grab which forces you to keep moving and get hit by his attacks. Then it ends up with you retreating into bad positions he can punish or rushing him down which plays into his game. That doesn't work if you just platform camp and run away because he's too slow to catch you for doing it. I also don't get why they made him so small. He's supposed to be 5'11 (bigger than Charizard) and I get why they made Charizard larger but Incineroar would actually benefit from being larger because he's already combo food so the larger hitboxes would just be helpful. With the online he would definitely be obnoxious if he got hella buffed, but offline he's useless and that's what they should be balancing for (because they should have put in rollback netcode to start with).

[@Georgefloydthesneedster]

@@Saskaruto16 5 FOOT ELEVEN????? IM TALLER THAN THAT GUY AND I THOUGHT HE WAS LIKE 6 FOOT 6 OR SMTH

[@wor2xfs250]

Hey Mockrock, I got a video Idea. How about the evolution of recoveries in smash history, and if it is healthier or not to have such good recoveries like we do in ultimate. Anyways, great video!

[@sheridan5175]

They're too good in ultimate imo

[@morgydee]

I think even the evolution of moves, movesets, and moveset synergy would be an interesting, although extremely time intensive video, but it would be fun to expand on the power creep of newer characters and looking at simply the way moves have singularly increased in viability on there own from game to game and yet still are outclassed by what simply seems to be the other more viable moves due to having priority in some way or another. Something I like to point to is Shiek Bouncing fish vs ZSS Flip jump, although being only separated in release by one game, they both show clear options for offense and defense yet Flip jump gets point to often as the better move if not one of the best moves. More Ex - Samus bombs/missles vs Snake C4/grenades - Every Sonic B move vs Puff Rollout - the entirety of the PT moveset vs the rest of the cast - Sephiroths Nair vs Wario, Dedede, Incineroar nair - Mythra Nair vs Cloud, Shulk, Hero, Ike Nair - Minecraft Steve Block vs Pac Hydrant, Villager Tree, Literally so many broken moves in this game, outright utility in some of these moves in comparison to some their older counterparts makes you wonder how every other character isn't top tier

[@sheridan5175]

@@morgydee You realise bouncing fish didn't exist until smash 4 right I think a better example is Ike neutral b, which was meant to be a compromise on a projectile since sakurai thought giving a swordie a projectile would be unbalanced, compared to blade beam.

[@morgydee]

@@sheridan5175 I didnt explicitly mention it, but I guess it's necessary but I was kinda just talking about the characters in Ultimate seeing as some characters/moves where Revamped from their last iterations, or kept similar to their Sm4sh counterparts if not near identical, I know said the thing abt how from game to game newer characters gain priority, but in that case I was comparing the two due to similar moves and less so because one move came before the other, and more so because the newer characters move is generally regarded as more useful

[@wor2xfs250]

@@morgydee I think that is too broad of a topic to get in a single video.

[@waifu27]

I feel like dedede's succ should be A tier. It's a REALLY strong tool looking at the content of his kit and you didn't mention (or maybe you didn't know, idk how many people know this) that it beats out most melee attacks. Because of this priority, it's a big tool in matchups with characters that have smaller hitboxes such as ken and fox and it's also a solid landing tool

[@dogboatzero9978]

I agree with you. I personalyl use succ and gordo almost together which heavily impacts the gameplay.

[@67tedward]

I feel like succ reflecting projectiles also needs to be taken into consideration. It makes it way harder to try to camp out dedede.

[@drcreed6320]

I gotta strongly disagree with you chief. It’s incredibly slow and committal due to the minimum amount of active frames, on top of already being on the kit of the big slow boi. Ftilt and jab1 are far more consistent boxing options that are both faster and less committal (and can hit confirm into a kill for jab) against those kinds of matchups. It’s a far worse landing tool that the simple mixup of nair vs nothing, again, due to those minimum active frames. Being able to contest huge projectiles (ie, kaboom, charge shot) is incredibly valuable for da D3, certainly, but it’s NOT that useful as a neutral option - or as a command grab, compared to some of these other behemoths.

[@waifu27]

@@drcreed6320 -"incredibly slow and committal" every command grab is either both of one of these -"minimum amount of active frames" you saying this move doesn't last long??? -"Ftilt and jab1 are far more consistent boxing options" nobody's using their command grab to box, literally every command grab either has way too little range or is too slow to startup to be a boxing option, also attack normally beats grab anyway -"far worse landing tool that the simple mixup of nair vs nothing" not true. it ignores shield, can be b reversed and again, beats most melee attacks, as opposed to nair which does none of those -"Being able to contest huge projectiles (ie, kaboom, charge shot) is incredibly valuable for da D3, certainly, but it’s NOT that useful as a neutral option - or as a command grab, compared to some of these other behemoths." how the hell is a reflector that beats most melee attacks and invalidates shield not a good neutral option? Also i'm not even mentioning it's reflecting properties in my initial comment. I'm focusing a lot on the fact that it beats most melee attacks because this is a game where attack beats grab, but this grab beats many attacks, making it something a lotta characters have to really respect in a game where having a normal command grab is already really nice

[@drcreed6320]

@@waifu27 1) Bowser Slam is frame 6 and frame 52 on whiff; Wario Bite is frame 6 and ends frame 41 on whiff; D3 inhale is frame FOURTEEN, and frame SEVENTY-FOUR on whiff (if you don’t hold it AT ALL). Just to be clear, that means this move takes longer to end than Falcon Punch does to start, as a benchmark. If you do hold it, he gains an additional NINETEEN more frames of endlag on top of however long you hold it for. 2) Minimum amount of active frames refers to at what point you can end the move - to compare to Wario’s bite for example (you can hold down the button to extend the move, just like succ), this would be the minimum amount of time the move is active if you were to just tap the button for a single frame. D3’s comes out 8 frames slower and he is forced to remain in the move for MINIMUM 33 frames longer, given the exact same inputs for both characters. I don’t think there is a single character in the roster who is incapable of landing a solid punish within 33 frames. 3) Fair enough, I meant “spacing” instead of boxing - my B. But my point still stands. The whole POINT of a disjointed option is to beat out a hitbox - why would you go for a slow, committal (again, SEVENTY-FOUR minimum frames) option that is objectively worse than his other tools? Even if you are exclusively looking to beat out these contending melee hitboxes in the air, both fair and bair are both faster, stronger, and disjointed enough to be objectively superior as well. Given that succ is a poor spacing option, why do you keep bringing up its ability to contest with other melee attacks? Thats what a spacing option IS: an attack (typically either disjointed or very non-committal, and typically fast) that can contest space and apply pressure to your opponent. A SPACING tool. Succ is NOT a good spacing tool. 4) If you want to utilize a slow and reactable move as a landing option, be my guest. It’s not exactly a great movement option given his slow drift, so B-reversing/WB’ing isn’t too much of a factor here, though admittedly WB’ing it can shift him back enough that it can potentially be useful against someone trying to catch his landing. Personally, I prefer the standard landing mixup, as both nair-utilt->upair and dthrow-fair are great 50/50 strings that can frametrap most matchups at low/mid percents. 4) My point is that it’s INCREDIBLY slow on whiff - a good neutral option is literally defined by it’s level of punishability. You’ve mentioned that it “beats out attacks” - for a frame FOURTEEN move to beat out anything, it has to be a read. As a unique punish option that can catch like, a fox mashing stale DA, its fine; as a NEUTRAL option to pressure something like a ZSS zair or sheik ftilt, it is going to lose out every single time. 5) Just to round it off, NO character needs to respect D3 succ as a neutral option. It can be used as a surprise punish tool, or a defensive option in response to projectile pressure, but it will be punished handily if you throw it out while you are playing neutral.

[@mettatonex7221]

I'd love for you to make one of these for chargeable specials. You know, moves that have varying size and power or even function depending on how long you charge them. Classics like Samus Charge Shot, Mewtwo Shadow Ball, Donkey Kong Giant Punch, as well as others like Mario FLUDD, PAC-MAN Bonus Fruit, and even including moves that can't hold their charge like Sephiroth Flare, Little Mac Straight Lunge, or King Dedede Jet Hammer. There might be a lot of these, so I understand if you don't want to, but I think it's worth a go.

[@itsyaboychipsahoy.7989]

Wish granted but only for projectiles

[@mettatonex7221]

@@itsyaboychipsahoy.7989 I saw it. Makes sense to limit it to that. I'd like to see the physical variant some time.

[@HippityhoppityGnW]

R O L L O U T

[@mattt3481]

Something I'd mention is that minecart has not just armor, but also I frames on startup, making pinning down Steve incredibly hard, especially since running away to collect resources is so much of his gameplan

[@jeremyleyland1047]

23:12 doesn't Wario get waft faster when he eats projectiles?

[@Apple80089]

Yeah I don't know he knew but it's a pretty small amount of time

[@imaksta]

Yes but it's almost unnoticeable

[@MrGameguyC]

He does. It cuts a second & a half off.

[@jeremyleyland1047]

@@MrGameguyC per bite?

[@CabeliotCometier]

Also works on players and bike, which is dangerous as heck of you let him keep getting away with Chomp. He'll get more wafts out which means less stocks for you...

[@JacobSC_]

Enjoy these kinds of videos a lot but I'm also happy to hear about the best and worst of moves list, I was gonna ask if there'd be updates due to balance patches & DLC

[@lemonlime8949]

Yeah he said he would do that on his Twitter a while ago

[@JacobSC_]

@@lemonlime8949 ah, I deleted my Twitter last month

[@GenericSpartaRemixer]

fun fact: incin alolan whip is BROKEN in amiibo. Incins trained to spam side B continuously win almost everytime, because the AI tends to not respond to the startup of the move properly and just stay there

[@LilGasmask]

Kirby main so this is a bias opinion. First off some matchups are stupendously easier when the copy ability is acquired. Notably Samus and the Links. Second, there are ways to confirm into an inhale and it is especially great for tech situations on platforms or shielding opponents on platforms. Third, the act of copying an ability can set up for some decent (but not true) follow-ups with either up air or back air. )sometimes even an up smash if you read their common air dodge. as a grab, I would say A tier personally. but if we tie in how projectiles work I would consider it an A or even C tier move I love the way Kirby is able to return big projectiles and I think damage from explosives is fair, but the punishability of swallowing a projectile for a 1% heal is just bad. Kirby's stomach is literally an endless void so I don't know why it should take so long to swallow one of mega man's lemons. I almost wish small projectiles would either heal for the damage they would deal OR not interrupt inhale and allow multiple projectiles to be inhaled to help with Kirby's rough matchups. (zoners)

[@LilGasmask]

also, you forgot about Kirby's 4 copy ability command grabs tsk tsk XD good video!

[@arinodonichi7928]

I'm pretty sure that when Wario uses his chomp out also charges his waft a little bit It definitely does that for projectiles Edit: I was right about everything and I gotta response from Mr mockrock himself. I am a God x3

[@johnjekyllson28]

Yeah, Wario’s Chomp extends his lead in three different ways: damaging the opponent, healing himself, and charging his waft. It doesn’t do an excessive amount of any of those, but the fact that they *all* happen together makes it very worthwhile to land.

[@MockRockTalk]

@@johnjekyllson28 True, I'm deliberately not trying to cover every tiny detail of every move in this more casual format, and I realistically don't know if Chomp usually adds enough to the Waft charge over the course of a match to be _that_ impactful, but worth noting.

[@arinodonichi7928]

@@MockRockTalk I'm kinda glad I was right and I didn't make a fool outta myself cuz imo that's a really cool mechanic so I thought you'd mention it. (I also feel so much joy getting responses from the creators of the videos I watch so thank you for my daily serotonin)

[@donaldcreswell4915]

25:13 I get that Robin's book isn't an amazing item, but it actually complements their kit pretty well. Book into thoron is a staple kill confirm for Robin mains which is both quick and can combo into moves/kill confirms up to super high percent

[@umopapsdn2864]

Another great utility is the physics of books Compared to other characters' items they have a much higher bounce which allows for tome dribbling (short hop dthrow tome aerial) which can wall out opponents really well Additionally the fact that they bounce off of shield allows for really powerful shield pressure that doesn't exist with items like turnip or gyro because they disappear on shield

[@hernandeznestor7685]

I remember the books killing in tr4sh like 100% damage.

[@CarbonMalite]

i really loved Lucarios air grab in PM cuz it sends you down which imo is more hype than a spike. I wish we could see more moves like that. Byleth has that and has great feel to it

[@MinMin4theWinWin]

I demand a tier list that has never been done but everyone craves it...they just don't know it yet. A tier list of smash characters crawling animations and a tier list of all the get up attacks/ledge attacks!

[@Mechman2001]

As a K Rool main I disagree with the placement in F. It’s an integral part of K Rool’s ledge trapping game as you can maintain it for a long time and drop through the platform to react to the enemy’s getup option. It also kills at like 120 off the ledge.

[@sackboy1665]

Minecart lets Steve recover from the below of the screen, instant S tier.

[@andypeoples7175]

Also ranking comeback mechanics could be cool. I thought maybe a video on passives could be cool too, but what does and doesn’t count as passive gets tricky. Like I’d float a passive? Or an ability? Self damage? Foresight? Super Specials? Those are all very different and serve very different purposes

[@jacemasood3019]

Byleths up b makes her nearly impossible to challenge her making a low recovery, and it's the best tether recovery in the game. Feel like at least C. Mad about Ridley too but you make a good point that it's much more situational than the other command grabs.

[@MockRockTalk]

I agree that Byleth probably has the best overall tether recovery, but all tether recoveries are inherently exploitable to some degree, generally speaking if I were choosing a recovery style for my character I wouldn't opt for one. Also, did you mean "at least B?" Because C is where I already put it haha

[@Lucifer-hq5pe]

@@MockRockTalk Yeah, i gotta say, great list overall, but i'd also put Byleths Up-B into atleast B-Tier. It may not be a "true" command grab, since it can be shielded, but it's still pretty good. Probably one of Byleths best moves, if not the best. It's a long tether recovery, an OOS option, can be used as anti-air tool, to start or extend combos, and it can kill at higher %, since it becomes not only a strong spike, but if i'm not completely mistaken, an untechable one at that. So i'd put it atleast in B. But still a good list, love your videos, especially the rankings. Great work, MockRock! 👍

[@Rhaemos]

@@Lucifer-hq5pe I agree, I think it's one of Byleth's best moves. A little weird and different from conventional solid moves like Nair, but still very useful and strong. I think tether recoveries can be good, since you can play around with tether cancel and mix up the timing; also it makes it just dangerous enough to go edgeguard Byleth when they're recovering low so that not everyone will try their luck. B tier for me

[@Lucifer-hq5pe]

@@Rhaemos Agree. I've had games where someone tried to edgeguard me and got pulled to his doom by the Up-B instead. Definitely a good move.

[@qwerandroxt7477]

why the heck are so many command grabs purple

[@danielleanderson3971]

I'd love to see a Smash DLC preferences tier list, just to see your thoughts there.

[@MockRockTalk]

Maybe after DLC winds down

[@danielleanderson3971]

@@MockRockTalk ah ok

[@anacobra558]

you have been one of my favorites creators for since smash 4 and when I heard you were making another chanel I was super excited and it's been a bit I can definitely say this channel doesn't disappoint in the slightest

[@MockRockTalk]

Thank you, it's been fun so far!

[@saucetown222]

MKLeo has recently shown how valuable Byleth Up B is for edgeguarding and kill setups, I'd say it's probably S tier or minimum A tier at this point. Like it literally invalidates so many characters' recoveries it's pretty insane. At the time this video was made I probably would've agreed with your placement though

[@Sacred_Sword]

Absolutely not. Byleth's Up-B is not S Tier. I can agree that Byleth's Up-B is definitely not in the same tier as Nosferatu but that move is top of B Tier at max. Not everyone knows how to use Byleth's Up Special like arguably the best player in the world can and there's the fact that you have to factor in counterplay which there is plenty of for certain characters. That and I find it very hard to believe that Buster Wolf is in a lower tier than Sword of the Creator. Alolan Whip, Bowser Bomb, Buster Wolf, Suplex, Confusion, etc are all better than Sword of the Creator.

[@AUTTY6242]

Can you do a recovery tier list for all fighters?

[@MockRockTalk]

Already in my ideas document. Does that mean I know if/when it'll actually get made? No, but on the table for sure.

[@WhitePointerGaming]

You're really overrating Yoshi's egg lay. It's got super slow startup at frame 19 - one of the slowest command grabs in the game, which actually makes it reactable. If it lands, it pops the opponent into an egg where they not only have full control over how fast they break out (as well as some control of it while it's in the air), but they also take half damage while inside it. You can sometimes cheese someone with it offstage but that doesn't make it good. While it has utility for aerial movement as you pointed out, I think as an actual command grab, it sucks, and should be an easy C tier.

[@letsmakeit110]

yoshi's kit also makes it worse between dair, bair, and the aerial drift you can't shield much against yoshi anyway, so egg lay not needed.

[@ShinyKelp]

I would honestly like to hear you talk about ledge trumping as a mechanic. How it compares to edge hogging or sm4sh's ledge trumping, whether it is good or bad game design, ways in which it could be polished, etc. I understand that this is a very subjective and sort of "abstract" topic to make a video about, certainly less concise than plain old tier list. However, nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody who ever talks about smash design mentions ledge trumping. It is always defaulted to having edge hogging or not, when imo trumping by itself is quite an interesting mechanic to explore.

[@jinxeatsdust]

You can tell this was made 9 months ago with Kazuyas placements. Only real thing I disagree with

[@jinxeatsdust]

Oh yeah - as someone who mains joker and secondaries byleth, move both of them up a tier for sure. I understand your reasons for them but both have very strong reasons to put them in the one higher tier than they're in.

[@hypersnake7904]

day 2 of asking mockrock to change the second channel name to talkrock

[@MockRockTalk]

Not happening, better pun but having "MockRock" appear in the channel name is much better for recognition. Say you're a MockRock viewer and you stumble across a video for this channel in the sidebar. Which one is more likely to make you say "hey wait I know this guy:" a video from a channel called MockRockTalk, or a video from a channel called TalkRock?

[@hypersnake7904]

man i didnt expect a reply

[@DanielNapoli-vk2lj]

Inhale better than Byleth’s upb????? For real? Leo killing out of that move at 40%… just saying. Also the 0 to death against dk… just saying. That’s the only thing I don’t agree with you, Byleth’s upb is at worst B tier, or event A tier :(

[@mrmolasses5888]

Command grab. You can laugh now

[@thatoddtenant4844]

Bowser side b is literally the only reason my bowser is in elit smash

[@howedaddy6122]

I didn't know you could shield Isabelle's fishing rod. That's nice to know lol

[@lucashu1247]

*None of MKLeo's mains were hurt in the making of this video

[@gameknight1971]

Corrin's Dragon Lunge wasn't on the list so I will rank it.. S+

[@Funky_Mode]

Inhale should be in A tier in you're ranking the moves in context.

[@duke0salt717]

Your intro is so satisfying to watch bro. You clearly spent many hours perfecting that sound effect timing

[@nowatch6959]

I feel like k rools neutral b would be better if they changed it a bit. Like make it so that if you press special and grab at the same time it'll do the grab part instead. I think that's a reasonable buff

[@MockRockTalk]

Yeah, I think I'd actually be onboard with that, it'd definitely make it better but I don't think it would be an unreasonable move.

[@AverageHandle_]

K.Rool mains (including me) have been saying this for at least 2 years

[@andyblanton6570]

If Incineroar had the mobility of Byleth, he would be easily the best character in the game.

[@xxivletxx]

What I like about being a Robin main is that every time I see one of these videos I make a bet with myself to see how low people put him

[@Moss_Dude]

Late fun fact about brawler: I don't know if this has been patched but there was a glitch where if you suicide with suplex against lucina or bayonetta in a very specific way the brawler will lose 2 stocks. I have no idea how it works I just know you do it by grabbing them off the ledge or right after they release or soemthing.

[@helios3557]

Miis are here You are redeemed

[@williamchicas1208]

What about kazuya's gates of hell?

[@hissenguinho]

Bruh wtf. I literally remembered your chann and decided to check and saw you hadn't uploaded seconds before you did. What are the odds lol

[@312bigbeanburrito]

I don't know if K.Rool blunderbuss belongs in F. KirbyKid uses it consistently to condition surprise kills. Yes you can wait, but that makes it a mixup. It covers both normal getup and roll, even attack if the range is short. Being able to cover 2/3 getup options allows it to be an effective conditioning tool

[@zahleer]

It also covers jump

[@davidc.]

Minecart is busted offline too lmao

[@johnjekyllson28]

Kazuya’s rage command grab is easier to land because you can do the shoryuken input into it, allowing you to close the distance more safely on the ground. You can’t normally do that, since it would comes out as a different move.

[@deadlock852]

Forgot about kazuyas 3 command grab

[@ignaciovelasco9452]

Space pirate rush cant be a c tier grab , It has more or less the range of suplex and if you are at a higher % than ridley you cant mash out of it in the ground which can do a lot of dmg . I would say it is at least B tier , saying that it is an A tier grab would be too much , it isnt definitelly at buster wolf level of power for example

[@LC-wv7tz]

It has a high ceiling, definitely, but I think he covered his explanation well. It's incredibly slow, hard to land, and whiffing it puts you in serious trouble as the end lag is HUGE. Compounded by the fact that it's Ridley who has one of the worst disadvantages in the game and can easily end up eating 50% off a failed grab. It's inconsistent and hard to pull off, but still a great tool because it aids his recovery and has all the usual benefits of a command grab punishing shield campy opponents. It's also not like Ridley has any amazing combos, setups, or follow ups off getting the grab either. It doesn't kill until incredibly high percents and strings into nothing, but it does send people off the ledge (if they aren't mashing out). It will do a ton of damage, but your opponent has to already be at higher percentage than you for that to happen, otherwise they break out almost instantly and chances are get to score a free hit on you as Ridley has no particularly fast moves to follow it up with. Big risk against a ton of the cast.

[@PeanutTechno]

Something to note about Dedede and King K Rool's Neutral specials: I've done some testing in the Spirit Board mode and noticed that they just flat out *don't work* if the enemy is "giant" and you try to use it on them. In addition to that, starting with "Ace" ranked spirits they might not work to suck enemies into the vacuum. I've used Dedede's neutral special against Young Link at *point blank range* during the "Link (Legend of Zelda)" Legend ranked spirit battle and all it did was result in me getting my ass kicked.

[@maddox9001]

id like to see a tier list of what moves feel the most dlc (ewgf sss tier lol)

[@nerriex9417]

I honestly think this series is really interesting, hearing you explain many moves with a likeness is a lot more fun than it seems especially with your great explanation as to why they belong in their tiers. As usual very good content. Since you've already covered anti Projectile moves, may I suggest projectile moves as a tierlist? I'm honestly really interested how'd you rank them.

[@guacodile2528]

WAAAAAAY TOO MANY you have no idea what this game considers a projectile Stuff like "falco's up throw laser" should be on the list lmao

[@SSM24_]

Yeah there are something like 200 moves with projectiles in this game. Even if you exclude some of the less "projectile-y" ones (like the stars that appear from Yoshi's down-B or really short-ranged ones in general), the video would still be like an hour if he spent only 20 seconds on each one.

[@MrGameguyC]

Good video as always. My only change is swapping Blunderbuss & Nosferatu placements for reasons not explained. -Blunderbuss has much more free aerial control and the ability to drop through platforms. Combined with a normal shot Kannonball, it's an oddly decent mix-up to continue pressure in general advantage, along with plats, not just by the ledge. The same can be said for its use as an off-stage edge-guarding tool/kamikaze tool. It has a strangely good utility that's only held back by needing a Kannonball out. -Successfully hitting Nosferatu puts Robin in Free-Fall. This was also the case in Sm4sh and is probably an oversight since Ult fixed this with every other non-recovery move with this property. But regardless, you're basically locked out of using this already niche move off-stage. The Little Mac of command grabs.

[@morgydee]

Chrom's recovery animation at 21:15, 0.5x speed

[@Alibaba-id1cs]

I would like to see a burst move tier list as burst moves feel underrated to me

[@Checkmating]

You think Joker's c-grab is the worst in the game? A brilliant mixup move for predicting when the opponent jumps in a certain direction after being upaired. A great mixup move for when the opponent jumps after shielding on a platform. An underrated mixup move for when the opponent jumps from ledge or just in general. Joker doesn't even have to move place during the entire animation. If it connects, then you get guaranteed a follow-up like a fair (assuming relatively low percents). Counter arguements: 1) laggy cause 59 total frames if missed. Well yes, but try using it under a platform. But what if there is no platforms? Bro, then use sparingly, also all c-grabs are laggy. 2) doesn't c-grab if joker in air. Well yes, so don't try to c-grab in air lol. 3) doesn't c-grab if opp is directly infront. Well yes, so don't try to c-grab if yeaukno 4) no c-grab if arsene. Well yes but arsene don't need no c-grab. Conclusion: I think Joker's c-grab is at least b-tier for it's low risk super long range, versatility in situational mixup potential, guaranteed follow-up if landed, and it just looks cool too. PS: don't even get me started on Byleth's insane up-B out of shield c-grab that should be in S-tier. I liked the video, but I personally think you underestimated the potential of up-b c-grabs.

[@jerryakatony5724]

In the beginning of the video he said that F-Tier doesn’t mean a bad move. It just means that it the worst compared to other c-grabs.

[@mr.return633]

Love this new kind of content. Keep up the great work!

[@sheridan5175]

Joker up b is really good lol It kills off the top and resets juggle scenarios instantly, which is joker's game plan without arsene.

[@ShinyKelp]

Don't worry, when Tweek's Diddy dominates for two whole years and the character is seen as top 5, everyone will get so good at punishing his Monkey Flip that it will look like a B tier command grab.

[@kimotokirby1601]

Nah.

[@GigaflareInNeutral]

Only realistic punish is spotdodge and it has such low endlag, makes it very hard to punish.

[@Rob_Pap]

Great list but can't agree with Robin's C Tier, it should be B imo just for this combo : Arc Fire -> Nosferatu, it's racking up so much damage early on and keep you alive longer. Of course at kill% you're better with a Levin Sword aerial, but the damage is just to high to be only at C Tier

[@LiamWins]

MockRock in the Anti-Projectile video: Kirby's Inhale goes in S tier because I'm ranking the move as a whole MockRock in the Command Grab video: Kirby's Inhale goes in B tier because I'm ranking the move as a whole

[@Rarest26]

There’s a difference. In that list, he evaluated design. In this one, he valued viability. Two very different things.

[@peebs_17]

YO ITS ME, IM IN THE VIDEO

[@haysdixon6227]

nice, where?

[@peebs_17]

@@haysdixon6227 I’m the section where he was talking about Isabelle

[@Fireelf]

Like the new haircut!

[@TheAntiburglar]

In connection with the zoner video I'd be interested in seeing how the projectiles stack up against each other :D

[@K0DA._.]

Blunderbuss being F-tier is very contestable. The amount of use K. Rool gets out of it when ledge trapping is insane on PS2, Small Batt, Batt, Yoshi’s, and even hollow bastion. It can legit cover all getup options using platform drop. Deserves at least C-tier if stuff like Joker’s Up-B is also F-tier.

[@L1N3R1D3R]

Sword of the Creator is way too low, it should be A Tier minimum. It brings you up high into the air, allowing for way more vertical mobility than Byleth usually has, and if your opponent is on the ground, it will also bring them up high before the knockback. The fact that you can get followups at low percent and very high percent gives it some unique options that no other move has. Its high vertical range makes it great at chasing your opponent at ranges where U-air won't reach, pulling them into reach and putting them in a bad position. The specific range also allows moves like D-tilt, U-tilt, D-throw, U-throw, and U-air to true combo into it under the right conditions, which few command grabs can do. Finally, it's probably the single best tether recovery, having the largest tether range, being able to latch onto walls and extend their recovery very high vertically, and being able to spike or combo your opponent if they misspace an edgeguard. There's a reason you see MKLeo use this move a lot when he plays the character.

[@Sacred_Sword]

You're forgetting that Byleth's Sword of the Creator's competition is Kirby's Inhale, Kazuya's Rage Drive, and Isabelle's Fishing Rod. If anything it's placement is justified.

[@L1N3R1D3R]

@@Sacred_Sword It's significantly better than all of those moves, I don't know what you're talking about. Inhale has much less range and more lag, and the amount of reward you get out of it is usually much less aside from specific characters' copy abilities. Rage Drive can only be used on the ground, it's laggy enough that it can easily be camped out and outspaced so it isn't even usable, and it's not even ludicrously strong to make up for it. Fishing Rod is slower and much laggier, and the reward isn't as high aside from the small percent range where it can kill and Sword of the Creator can't. The only two problems with Sword of the Creator that might keep it from S Tier are its low horizontal range directly in front of them and the fact that it's a hit grab, but it should still be A Tier since the command grabs in that tier have similar weaknesses.

[@Sacred_Sword]

@@L1N3R1D3R Sword of the Creator is an ok at best recovery tool. It can be used in combos and yeah it can spike off stage but only at high percents. - Kirby's Inhale is not bad because of it's short-range and end lag. Those shortcomings are overcome due to the move's versatility. It can be incorporated into combos, it can range from good to bad based on a copy ability, and each ability has a 1.2x Damage Multiplier. Even when the copy ability is bad it can also be used to kill your opponent offstage if they don't know how to counter the suck and cuck. - Kazuya's Heaven's Door is better because: 1. You can take your opponent down with you. 2. Rage Drive kills super early. 3. Rage Drive can be incorporated into combos which as we've seen already Kazuya can definetely do! Sword of the Creator doesn't stand a chance compared to Rage Drive. - Isabelle's Fishing Rod is better due to it's zoning cabablities. It covers a bunch of the stage, the grab is actually treated like a grab where you can launch the opponent in any four directions, is a recovery aid, and because of its ability to be cancelled Isabelle isn't a complete sitting duck if she pulls out her Fishing Rod and misses. Sword of the Creator definitely DOES NOT belong in A Tier beside Yoshi's Egg Lay, Mii Brawler's Suplex, and DEFINITELY NOT beside Terry's Buster Wolf! If anything it's placement is justified. I think being in the same tier as Ridley's Space Pirate Rush is fair.

[@L1N3R1D3R]

@@Sacred_Sword Are you playing the same version of Smash as I am? Sword of the Creator is a great recovery tool. It's the tether with the longest range, it can attach to and jump off walls, and it's terrifying to edgeguard unlike other tether recoveries because you can either be spiked at 50+% or comboed at lower percents. Yeah, Inhale has versatility, but for the reasons that MockRock and I explained, it doesn't deserve any higher than a B. That last point is meaningless because it depends on the opponent being bad. For Heaven's Door, the ability to suicide is alright but not anything that makes it broken. Plus, "super early" is subjective, as Rage Drive doesn't kill until at least 80% with DI, which many other strong moves outclass and don't have such narrow restrictions to use. For Fishing Rod, you're only going to use D-throw at very low percents, U-throw at kill percent, and F-throw and B-throw to mess with people offstage, but then you're below them. Sword of the Creator is a better recovery aid, and it has less lag than the canceled Fishing Rod. Again, if you're doubting anything I'm saying, just watch how much MKLeo, the best Byleth, uses Sword of the Creator for combos, extensions, and tricky recoveries. Certainly more than Kirby, Kazuya, and Isabelle players use those command grabs. Since we're ranking based off utility in their own moveset, this is an easy A.

[@Sacred_Sword]

@@L1N3R1D3R 1. Why yes I am playing the same version of Smash as you. If anything I should be asking you that question. Sword of the Creator is not in the same Tier as Buster Wolf...NOT EVEN IN A MILLION YEARS! 2. It's the tether with the longest range? Then why is it still so mediocre then? 3. "Inhale has versatility, but for the reasons that MockRock and I explained, it doesn't deserve any higher than a B". Yep just like Sword of the Creator not deserving anything higher than a C. Also, the last point isn't meaning less. Anything can depend on the opponent being bad to some extent. Kirbycide is still an option and a good one at that if the opponents recovery isn't good. 4. My bad. I thought Rage Drive killed at 40% or something. Also, if Heaven's Doors Ability to suicide is nothing special then why is Bowser Bomb, Flame Choke, and Suplex higher than it on the Tier List? The ability to rob an opponent of someones stock is very good since if you're at 3 Stocks and at kill percent and you just took your opponents first stock you can gain a huge lead just because you hit them at ledge with one of those Command Grabs. 5. For Fishing Rod it's not about the follow ups but the options and more importantly Stage Control which makes it better than Sword of the Creator. 6. I would but that's MKLeo playing Byleth. You're talking about one of the best players. Don't act like that's every player who uses Byleth because it's not. You need to remember that A Tier is the same Tier as Terry's Buster Wolf. A super powerful move that can be comboed and kill confirmed into from Jab, N-Air, Down-Tilt, etc. Sword of the Creator isn't MOST DEFINITELY NOT a move that belongs next to a move like Terry's Buster Wolf.

[@FedoraKirb]

Would Kirby being able to Super Inhale like in Amazing Mirror onward be busted? For those who don’t know, if Kirby holds the B button in most games since AM, the inhale hitbox would actually increase in size (though he couldn’t hold it out forever). The Super Inhale allows him to inhale larger enemies and (from Return to Dream Land onwards) makes eating multiple things at once easier (as the hitbox stays out until Kirby releases the 1/B/Y button in the modern games). Imagine if he could eat multiple projectiles (or opponents) in Smash and spit them out as even larger and more powerful stars. It would at least slightly fix its range problem and be a cool reference to the modern games.

[@waffleman8053]

It would help him a lot!

[@KaitouKaiju]

@@waffleman8053 Kirby needs help?

[@jstar3382]

14:07 yeah, Bowser as a whole works way better with a move like that. Bowser is fast as hell, and is much more intimidating in the air than Kazuya. Kazuya is scariest on the ground

[@uroy8371]

Byleth is easily an A tier, one of the best recoveries (climb), combos, good damage, space control, pressure, ledge camping, kill confirm.

[@stubbornwentmissing]

i'd love to see a tether recovery tier list

[@Masonomace]

Thanks for making this kind of video. I dun recall if you mentioned in throughout your video anywhere, but judging based on your ranking of command grabs, you don't consider all competitive formats right? Just Singles? It's a given if so, and that's fine of course. It's just that, when you do consider both Singles and Doubles, then command grabs become just as crucial as regular directional throws as well. But some of them are extra-spicy. For example, Ganon not having intangible frames during a successful Flame Choke would usually make it terrible in Doubles because Doubles-reasons, but possessing an armor window does make it better than a vulnerable command grab. AKA, its crowd-control ability is manageable. In other words, their defensive utility are either very safe or very unsafe depending on which command grab it is. Though, for Lucario and Yoshi, I'd like to note: ~Lucario~ -Force Palm's grab alone is subpar. The flame if grab whiffs is there to be a spotdodge-buster, but even then.. it can be shielded with the right timing to avoid the grab with the same spotdodge, and that finishes your high note for Lucario. Though, I'd say that it's better than the middle. -The jostle change buffing its succession makes it much more respectable now. You can input SideB while airborne upon landing and can get notable cross-ups in very tight situations that otherwise warrant fear factor while holding shield. And even though it is possible to mash out of it on paper, it requires inhuman mash speed to escape, and impossible to mash after ~50% for both parties. The ability to mash out of command grabs imo warrant how effective they are in a tier list. -Force Palm grab at very early percents is seen as terrible, but it actually possesses combo trees. You can buffer instant dash attacks or well-timed dash attacks to net damage and stage control all the same. That, or dash-in short hop Forward air which will grab pyramid combos for you. A FPG combo at 0%---while yes it is 0%---but you can net either ~20% with Dash Attack finisher, or ~30% with Forward Airs into Neutral Air finisher. So overall, it seems terrible and useless at low Aura, but you have some combo potential at early %. That automatically boosts its merit. -After mid percents, Lucario doesn't get any combo ability from even UThrow--so throws will just grant stage control and damage. But just with Base Aura---Force Palm grab deals ~16.3% which is fine\good. But we all know it's a delete button with Rage+Aura accumulated at ledge--or even middle stage pre-80%. -And lastly, I definitely wanna hear your thoughts on the matter of these command grabs in a Doubles environment. Anything to mention at all is fine. I personally was interested to hear what you thought about the flame attack that transpires while Lucario's FPG is successful. Mostly because in Doubles, when I get a successful FPG, the opponent who isn't grabbed can't approach my grab-flame attack due to it being an active hitbox and being safe on-block. FPG's flame grab attack on top of FPG's ending lag being so quick makes it solid in Doubles for crowd-control. And is definitely a plus in helping its merit. ~Yoshi~ -You gave Egg Lay a lot of justice, and I'm happy about that. Thank you. While it's true that Yoshi himself carries the command grab due to his parameters being so good--it just.. it's just good man. Solid A imo. Egg Lay causes situations to reverse in Yoshi's momentum and favor. It's applicable in the air, and is very terrifying to use near ledge like all command grabs can be. But also that Yoshi himself is so intimidating off-stage on top of the fact that you can use a 4f active grabbox. So it's terrifying for anyone who's 2-framed grabbing a ledge. Mediocre mash speed and reacting to the fact that you just got put in an egg prison off-stage needs to be respected. B-Reversing or just pivoting the move is just so busted on Yoshi. So usable. -Noting this, but upon succession, what do you think about Egg Lay in the air and how that varies on the matchup? All characters have different gravity and air physics, so it's actually not as universally useful on all characters, which can hold it back some from being better. -But I also wanted to hear about how safe it is in a Doubles format. Heck, even in singles, that intangible window Yoshi gets when you succeed is just so massive. So safe with so much i-frames (23 i-frames) makes it very dependable to use in a situation that you know a normal directional throw could drop the ball. Or that you could merely get traded with for said throw. Very useful, and so much so, that you can avoid 2v1 scenarios that a standard throw could lack handling with. You sacrifice offensive crowd-control ability that a command grab could have, but you're rewarded with high defensive/safe coverage. And that's also very good.

[@Toadiferous]

I'd bump Falcon's up to S. The hitbox is absolutely massive, it can be reversed and catch grounded opponents while landing, kills center stage fairly early for a command grab, and his air/fall speed and hurtbox shift makes it surprisingly hard to actually punish on whiff since he can mix up his movement while falling so easily. For reference, Diddy's monkey flip grab doesn't kill most characters until around 150% at the very edge of the stage, and some even survive that. I've been killed as a middle weight by Falcon up B center stage at like 140%. Similar to Diddy, Falcon is a character that can pressure you into holding shield with just his threatening speed and combo potential, so having an option like that is insanely strong, especially at kill % where he can kill you with stray aerials just as easily (which Diddy also cannot).

[@michaellindenmuth9446]

You forgot the literal command grab. Kazuya’s special input grab. Also wouldn’t DK cargo carry count?

[@tangos716]

24:16 Honestly I think that this should be in F tier, as a command grab and it's utility it I do agree that it should be in C possibly even B tier, but the fact that you only have 3 uses and it takes 30 whole seconds to recharge makes it so bad. It can be used as an occasional mix up tool but I have gone entire best of 3 sets without even using down B. Just because of how risky and situational it is

[@CarloVaccariPlus]

I would honestly put Byleth's command grab over literally every one of the moves you put in B tier. I think it's really busted. It builds percent, can kill confirm, edgeguards, anti-edgeguards, lets Byleth hang out offstage edgeguarding longer by latching onto the stage itself...

[@shadowlife15]

people hate on incineroar, and yet he has an S tier command grab, S tier counter, Incredibly high damage and deceptively low end-lag on several moves. just because he is "slow" while running. The most underrated character in the game, and 100% obnoxious to play against.

[@damianedmundcincurak2657]

This is a weird request but I think Zairs are a really cool unique attack that would make an interesting tier list. Since there aren't many of them it would be easier to rank than some other broader topics but ultimately it is just a cool group of moves that I don't think get enough attention.

[@ryancolby9334]

I don't understand any sense in which Minecart can be considered not a command grab, that was very baffling to hear at the end of the video

[@evanwirth7881]

As a Kazuya main I will say, it is SUPER hard to land Hell’s Gate, the grab box is super small

[@lunarkomet]

I pretty much agree with most of the placements, except for the Byleth and Joker ones that imo should both be bumped up a tier