Pierre Spies - The Ultimate Athlete

[@somerandomguy5600]

I see alot of hate in the comments. Spies was a no8 and he played his part perfectly all the time, and don't think anyone can disagree that the guy was a true athlete in every sense of the word. He might not have been the little guy that always does the hard ground work, but he never stopped working in a match and always tried to give his all even on bad days. He was a strong carrier and he definitely knew how to find a good line. Wasn't like Jerry Collins on defence, but wasn't a ghost either. He might not have been the hardest but he definitely did give his heart to the sport and that says more about his character than any of the tries he scored. South Africa would be lucky to have another loose forward like him again.

[@braeddie]

Wasn't like Jerry Collins on defense? With him at 8, you were playing a man down on defense. Poor work rate, poor defense, poor hands. Nobody would deny that he was a monster in open play, but as a number 8, quite mediocre. It's not hate pointing out major flaws in his play.

[@brotherhood6391]

@@braeddie stfu ..are you even watching this video idiot..spies was a beast

[@ChampZ7]

@@brotherhood6391 tell him

[@ChampZ7]

@@braeddie you are talking kak

[@leonardodavinci7425]

Steroids

[@princejraxson469]

one of my favourite number 8s in the world.

[@_The_Black_Prince_]

Hmmmm watching the 2007 Bulls era gave me chills. Produced a good Springbok side as well

[@MrTimnaik]

One of the best offensive No.8s in world rugby. Certainly up there with Zinny, Quinnell, Read, et al.

[@rugbymontagereviewer4996]

Nothing but love for your opening sequence. Your channel is a real hark back to the old classic highlight reels and I can only commend you for that. 7.5/10

[@RealRugby]

Rugby Montage Reviewer Thanks for the comment, I'm glad you enjoy this channel :-)

[@louaiga74]

Wow! My 2 all time favorites springbok forwards- schalk burger and this machine spies!!

[@363Ruan]

Nice to see how well the bulls played, wish we still had that fire and talent.

[@somerandomguy5600]

Ruan Pieterse things are beginning to look better, but yeah theres alot of work between where they are no and to be the team they were 10-11 years ago... That was a team who knew hard work and Victory well

[@jan7539]

@@somerandomguy5600 nee boet Pollard is weg RG is weg Jesse weg Lood weg

[@abriepieterse1665]

Saw him walking in public once, he truly had a freak physique!

[@MaximAlexandrr]

its called steroids

[@Martin-pb7ts]

I think he was an amazing athlete and played out of his skin for the Bulls. At international level I don't think he did anything wrong I think he suffered from a coaching issue - our Bok coaches never really knew what to do with him. They were very limited in their thinking and a loose forward that wasn't enormous and a crunching player like Danie Rossouw (who was great too), they just didn't know what to do with him. Imagine if he had played under Steve Hansen? He would have been a rugby god. If he had played under a Bok coach with more imagination I reckon his legacy would have been far more impressive.

[@RealRugby]

Martin Coetzee I agree 100% with you Martin. People tend to remember the things he did wrong. He was VERY good for the Boks between 2006 and 2009, solid in 2010 and 2011 and only really struggled between 2012 and 2014, oddly enough under Heyneke Meyer

[@Martin-pb7ts]

In my opinion Heyneke Meyer ended up being a very fearful Bok coach. I think he was out of the game for a while after a personal tragedy and when he came back he wasn't really the same coach anymore. The first time something went wrong for him he tried to bring most of his old Bulls side out of retirement. Instead of building for the future he went right into the past. Anyway he was still a good coach but the Boks weren't as good under him as I thought they would be. It just shows what a tragedy it was when SARU gave the Bok job to a completely unqualified Pieter De Villiers and then Heyneke got the job later when he was no longer in his prime. I live in New Zealand and it's hard to watch your own rugby union continuously undermining your players and coaches and then in New Zealand you see how the rugby union do everything in their power to make their players the best in the world. Hopefully things will change, the Bok squad this year is much better and they are looking good. I don't think they have enough firepower to beat the All Blacks yet but if they can grow without being undermined for a few seasons they could do very well in the next World Cup.

[@RealRugby]

Martin Coetzee I agree 100%, Heyneke should have succeeded Jake White in 2008 when those Bulls players were at their best. Most coaches pick players they know and back. Jake did it with John Smit for instance and Peter De Villiers had a thing for Adi Jacobs for a while. Heyneke liked Victor etc. Anyway - I think the issue in South Africa is politics in sport, not necessarilly the quota system, there is a difference between the two. Our game is run by amateurs and if we are gutsy enough to follow the European clubs' model, we'll be competitive again

[@Justaminting]

Martin Coetzee your prediction for the “next World Cup” was spot on

[@Vinsanity_93]

Shows how little i know, didnt know he played winger, awesome stuff

[@MrT67]

Started as a winger. Should have stayed there.

[@npd6225]

Started as 3rd string wingers, got injured and got on the gear and came back as springbok number 8. 😂

[@allanmacbadger5692]

Probably the best SA back I have seen was Pierre Spies, Juan Smith and Danie Rossouw.

[@MrBreakdownBoy]

Sometimes I wonder if he should not have stayed at wing, he lacked the grunt to fully encapsulate the test level number 8 slot. An amazing player to bring on the field at the 60min mark for sure.

[@somerandomguy5600]

MrBreakdownBoy injuries and wrong training program, and after that bug of playing loosy bites you never want to play another position

[@josephvanwyk2088]

How do you miss the great breakthrough run during the All Blacks game, where he ran from mid field to the poles.

[@SelesaSalaminaValasiAhKuoiAhTo]

The man i miss seeing him play Pierre Spies the big fella

[@ianvisser5856]

Jirre ek sal my self bekak as so ding op my moet af hardloop!

[@erikapruis4385]

Jy is kak snaaks, ja gan net viri voete🤣🤦‍♀️🤕

[@thegulagarchipelago5921]

Nou 3 Jaar later en ek sien jou comment en ek lag dat die Trane rol 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Dankie👌🙏👏👏

[@erikapruis4385]

Luv him! What a player... wow!

[@andrewbaird9469]

Probably the best 8 in SA rugby history- insane player 😅

[@wayneboon9552]

Underrated legend

[@cameronlylekiki5067]

Wow never knew he was a winger 💪🏼🔥

[@TheMku147]

I didnt know he started his career as a winger till i watched this clip. No wonder he was that quick for a big man

[@VicRibeiro777]

Wonder what would have been if he was moulded into winger, and he stuck with it. Most of the tries were from broken play, or where he had a bit of space. Would have had more of that on the wing than from 8. But we will never know now. :)

[@RB-kr6jo]

he got robbed of potential greatness by HM, could've been a Savea type wing

[@diogeneslantern18]

Even as a centre he could have been devastating. He doesn't have the "mongrel" mindset of a loosie. I still adore him him though, when I left school he was a massive inspiration to me.

[@RB-kr6jo]

he had a back's mindset, incredible athlete too

[@mariusv2900]

Never thought about it but i think that SA coaches never used him to his full potential even as a 8.

[@alberthewson9121]

0:35 he started as a wing for the Bulls

[@bustarogers9990]

Wow what a highlight reel , the pace of the man was unbelievable such a natural runner and a pleasure to watch. I can't for the life of me understand why i have never heard of him , i watch a lot of Rugby and would have thought he obtained superstar staus. Did something happen to him , injuries or something????.

[@RealRugby]

He played over 50 tests for South Africa, so its strange that you never heard of him? In the last couple of years of his career he struggled with injury. He eventually went to France to play for Montepellier and recently from rugby altogether to become a minister of the church in Pretoria

[@reonnell437]

Busta Rogers he had a medical problem that took him out of rugby and when he came back he wasnt the same.then he went over see to france or eng not sure

[@whatthehellnomorebees6175]

5:35 just a Reminder that was a Super rugby Final

[@Rmcaw]

An amazing athlete, but he only played at his best with a forward pack which was in the ascendancy. He didn’t have the basic back row skills when a scrum was being pushed back or the opposite forwards had the upper hand. His running style was about finishing off in broken play, not grounding out hard yards to get over the gain line and build momentum. Still it amazes me how South Africa produces these monsters.

[@EllliotJackRussel1]

quickest N.8 ever

[@ttoleafoa70]

Would’ve liked to see him and Savea in a Race

[@osunaarashisthirdroundcard8362]

@@ttoleafoa70 100m race: Croft vs Spies vs A. Savea vs Macalou vs Tipuric. Now that's something I'd pay to see! I reckon Macalou wins it, but Spies is the most powerful and formidable overall athlete, in my opinion.

[@ttoleafoa70]

@@osunaarashisthirdroundcard8362 Macalou is fast but I think Savea’a got him in an all out sprint. He’s done some freakish things like chasing down wingers and outpacing them when he puts the hammer down. Close though in my opinion. Spies was just formidable on the carrying front. Did fuck all on defense, could’ve done more but he was so lazy. Macalou overall I reckon is more formidable. Dominant tackler and great carrier.

[@osunaarashisthirdroundcard8362]

@@ttoleafoa70 Yeah, agreed on the Spies defence/work-ethic point. I think I just meant powerful and formidable in more of a pure genetics/gym stats kind of way. Regarding a sprint-race between Savea and Macalou, I think it depends on the distance. I reckon Savea has better acceleration, but Macalou looks like he has better top speed and maintenance, based on their respective body-types. Savea seems to be shorter, more compact with disproportionately shorter, thicker legs (much better for acceleration), whereas Macalou is taller, less compact with disproportionately longer, thinner legs (much better for top speed and maintenance). So if it's 40m, I'd bet on Savea; if it's 70m, I'd say it's a coin flip; if it's 100m, I'm putting my money on Macalou. Body-type-wise, it's a bit like Usain Bolt (Macalou) versus Asafa Powell (Savea). Interesting stuff!

[@osunaarashisthirdroundcard8362]

@@ttoleafoa70 By the way, I spoke with some French people I know a while ago, and they're weren't very enthused about Macalou, which I was initially surprised by. They said he often makes poor tactical decisions and loses his discipline, so is a bit of a penalty machine. Until then, I'd only seen highlights of Macalou (which wouldn't show those traits), but when I watched my first full match in which he played, I could see what those guys were referring to.

[@quentin5242]

What a player

[@chr1spybeef741]

I'm not a Bulls fan but Pierre has very much the perfect athletic build, speed and guile for rugby. Would have enjoyed seeing him with more game time for the Boks

[@RealRugby]

chr1spy Beef Agreed. I will be the first to admit his form has been inconsistent, but he is flourishing in Europe. I think he was coached into a rigid structure which was past its sell by date by 2011...

[@lmeyer46ish]

Real Rugby I agree 100%. I feel like he didn't reach his full potential here.

[@faampie]

Damn, I forgot how good he once was.

[@RealRugby]

Jacques Farmer Most people forgot how good Spies was... ;-)

[@IronMan-ho7vt]

Me too!

[@rh5466]

Wow. He definitely was a specimen on the rugby field. I don't know his career at all, so I can't say anything about some of the critiques here that he was shy of the grinder, heavy lifting forward work. But those qualities aren't really amenable to highlight videos anyway. Only the flash stuff gets on these videos; with good reason I guess.

[@brucebanner9911]

Man had some wheels for a big guy!!

[@diggyzeus186]

Use to be a winger should’ve stayed on the wing too

[@dhirshg]

Jeez, Spies was a rocket!!!

[@sevunadruku1409]

One of the Best👏👏 #one thing that caught my attention, was the full South African Stadiums. Hard to find that now.

[@troll604]

2008 Springboks, what an era

[@barney151]

Wheels! He run like a fast centre

[@marqstheman]

How good of a defensive player was he? That intercept was real clean 😂. Amazing!

[@somerandomguy5600]

marqstheman He might not have been like Jerry Collins, but he wasn't a ghost on defence. Can't blame him though, his whole life he was a wing and then on professional level he was a loosy. Both require different types of defensive game plays.

[@johanbarnard3435]

He always made the tackles required of him. Didn't smash people on defense but still tackled them. His only real weakness was the fact he didn't do enough of the donkey work at ruck time

[@wanaheda]

He was great in the lineout too.

[@bluehar5505]

@real rugby can you perhaps upload that 2007 Reds game. We smashed them so hard. It was a thing of beauty

[@Roberto_79]

Awesome Springbok

[@nox6885]

Spies never started his career as a winger. He has always been an 8 but was so talented that the Bulls could not afford to leave him out of the team so put him at wing. I remember watching him in my final year of high school, he was as good as anyone in SA at the time and would outrun wingers from the top schools in SA. Really humble bloke too. Was he the best, no but he was really exciting to watch. I think SA coaching is no where near good enough. If Spies had better coaches he would have set the world alight.

[@RealRugby]

noxizle 4 shizle agree with you 100%

[@nox6885]

Real Rugby shot buddy

[@nox6885]

Real Rugby thanks for uploading great videos too, highly appreciated. Please keep up the good work.

[@thegulagarchipelago5921]

Not true Noxile. He played under 20 on the wing for the Bulls. Well known fact. But then he got moved to no.8 because he got to big and not enough flat out speed for a winger. Man was a rugby BEAST!

[@reonnell437]

noxizle 4 shizle moron he did set the world alite do u watch rugby

[@RondaDonjkl]

My favorite player no doubt. Unfortunate with his heart condition.

[@aluwaninone1]

Running number 8....never got involved with rucks... I remember back in 2007 we used called him the ruck inspector!

[@MarcusDailyMedia]

Him and Victor Matfield.

[@Gevreet45]

Thanks for a nice tribute, and for not providing a soundtrack, that is so annoying.

[@Planthier76]

Gevreet45 exact

[@itabs-auckland6547]

Agree

[@marqstheman]

Yeas. The real highlights make the video much more exciting!

[@etiennevanwyk3208]

Would have love to see him under Rassie and Nienaber

[@MetYsJa]

All the talent in the world, scandal that he didnt become the rugby GOAT. a guy that size able to run a 10,8 100m - is unheard of.

[@johanbarnard3435]

People forget how good he was as a lineout jumper as well. Easily up there with the best lineout jumpers of the game. Always gave the boks and Bulls a 3rd option that other 8s couldn't match at the back. Not a defensive player yes but with ball in hand he was massive for any team

[@alberthewson9121]

The best number 8 in world rugby.

[@floating-in]

Spies at his best is up there with Duane V, Daan Retief, Gary Teichman, Tommy Bedford and the great Hendrik Muller as the greatest 8th man in Bok history.

[@johnpontes812]

I wonder sometimes if he was actually quicker than Habana

[@tomsicgeorge7478]

He was a winger... freakish pace for a #8...

[@danielmcroberts784]

Can't help but feel he never fulfilled his potential (easy to say for somebody who couldn't probably run the length of a rugby pitch). He had so many weapons in his arsenal; pace of a winger, strength of a forward and a clear eye for the gap. Perhaps in this day and age of rugby he could have been played more to his strengths instead of the conventional 8 role. All that said he's some player.

[@RealRugby]

Agreed, I'm a Bulls fan and I think he should have played 100 tests and should have been one of the greatest ever. In hind sight, he probably wasn't a 8, open side could have suited him better

[@mattybhoy6522]

Def an open side. Not an 8 imo

[@MeanAzz_13]

@@RealRugby Number 6 give him the freedom of roaming with the grafting of a 7.

[@mementomori4355]

Real Rugby I play 6 myself and always believed 7 or 6 would have suited him far better, especially 6 for me though.

[@Brdr685]

I agree. He was so good. But number 8 needed to be a Kieran Reed or duane vermeulen type player. I really wish he played like them, but was a bit of one trick pony and probably a bit too nice. Needed a bit of mongrel to go with his freak athleticism.

[@andriesswa6453]

Spies was a freak of nature.

[@johanbarnard3435]

What a beast!

[@TheJRMshorts]

SA for life

[@kalolosene9003]

The best number 8 in the world of all time. Even the back liners cant count his footsteps,

[@johanbarnard3435]

Put him in an All Black team with an attacking mindset and his haters would have been quiet. He was a beast just unfortunate that Bok coaches didn't know how to use him properly.

[@pjneethling26]

I wish Bob Skinstad and Spies had played together more often.

[@A-small-amount-of-peas]

This man has an awesome name

[@mariusv2900]

I believe they waisted him at 8. He was more of a blindside flanker. He never fully convert into a forward but on the offence he probably did not have an equal, but on defence and ruck time he was out of his depth. I still believe if the SA coaches used him correctly he would have been a legend like no other.

[@RealRugby]

Great comment Marius. He made his name playing at flank in 2006 and I also believe he was better suited to open side

[@somerandomguy5600]

True no7 would have suited him better.

[@kwaggacapetown3191]

Vermeulen or Spies. What do you guys think? Both excellent players and very different types of players

[@justsomeguy665]

For 8 i Will always pick Vermeulen above spies hé just has more grid. But i think in genaral Spies should have bin in the back line. I think nr13 center would have be the best

[@LuisAndrade-vg1hf]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 AMAZING 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@connorduke4619]

The try-scoringest number 8 of all time?

[@RealRugby]

Ecky Thimble Maybe not of all time, but he was up there. For the Boks it would have been between him and Skinstad

[@rahowherox1177]

Lol. That would be Zinzan Brooke

[@MGR-jw8rc]

He was a great looking athlete but He was a flat track bully. He looked great behind a pack going forward but went missing when the donkey work needed to be done

[@romanokoopman5768]

And couldn't tackle even if his life depended on it.

[@RLuke103]

Built like Tarzan, played like Jane.

[@tyonamin]

RLuke103 Bruh, Cory Jane was a great player...

[@jondyfed4980]

Superb player, easy to comment when you’ve won both

[@antoikirs6277]

Spies one of the fastest nr 8 ever

[@Narapoia1]

A good title for the video - he was a player with amazing athletic ability but who went missing in most big contests. He should have had a far bigger impact on the game and could have been a No 8 legend, but he didn't have the heart for it and should have stayed on the wing. Vermuelen is a vastly superior rugby player to Spies, it's not even close, but Pierre did have his moments. I could watch him run over O'Gara in the second Lions test all day.

[@EllliotJackRussel1]

It was Jaque Fourie who smashed O'Gara

[@Narapoia1]

@@EllliotJackRussel1 just before his try 100% but a few minutes before the try Spies went smashing into O'Gara and I think opened up a cut on his head which he had to get bandaged. I think it was part of the reason he was hanging about on the wing trying to stay out of the way of things. He must have been very unhappy to see Jaques coming towards him. And that I can watch all day as well.

[@annetteelliott1494]

Very good looking.....😊😊😊😊😊

[@IronMan-ho7vt]

5:55, never seen that before.

[@haczabim]

I thought he was a winger, then I saw his number 8

[@riverofocean]

we have great players

[@danielpienaar4031]

had

[@justsomeguy665]

Daniel Pienaar and now we have

[@eugenepoon]

Spies was a perfect analogy (regardless of whether it was his fault or his coaches etc) for prioritising gym strength and general athleticism over actual rugby specific skills and abilities.

[@Martin-pb7ts]

Disagree 100%. He had bucketloads of talent and skill but was let down by Bok coaches who had 0 imagination and no idea how to use such an incredible weapon. There should have been plays specifically designed to bring him into the game at his most devastating. Same happened to Habana - most talented wing the world has ever seen and could have scored far more tries but spent a significant time playing under coaches that worshipped ten man rugby completely wasting the talents of the men from 11-15.

[@louisjwiese5515]

Should have been an open side flank. 8th man didnt suit him (especially the way SA uses its nr 8s). With his pace and strength, he should have been given chances to run lines and connect with the backline more. And not get involved in tight exchanges. The way he was used, was a waste of exceptional talent.

[@hencoswart3567]

I absolutely agree with you... We had the guys to attack in the tight exchanges, Spies should have been used to run at the centers and wings... But unfortunately his defense was very average for most of the time. However, he is still one of my personal favorites.

[@fenrizragnarok]

How does he outpace all those wings and full backs?

[@justsomeguy665]

Hé used to be a wing himself

[@charlesamorim9503]

The Best

[@somerandomguy5600]

One of the biggest shames is that he doesn't have a Word Cup title... Due to medical reasons he couldn't play in the 2007 Rugby World Cup...

[@glywnniswells9480]

Pieter Keyser We was robbed in 2011

[@fletmok3548]

Definitely the Hennie Muller of the modern age

[@Danjobeth]

he had to be part of the boks many years ago. the saru should have locked him with a good contract so he could play in boks and super rugby

[@stephenfourie2019]

True bok legend!! You cant compare pieters steph with Piere SPIES!!

[@matthewvanwyk4530]

Pieter is much better

[@tauriquesedick2300]

Insaine speed and power

[@battlepig518]

Imagine if he spent his career on the wing or centre.....fack!!!

[@RubyClassic2015]

I like Spies, but he never was an eight, never hard enough, should have moulded him into a Tom Croft type of flanker, hang out in the wide channels running at backs or props in the wrong place.

[@barbenhoward3281]

Totally agree...

[@xpat73]

Yes - was a 6 really.

[@Dontdisstheguy33]

He was a winger in the first clip of this video!

[@faampie]

He started his career as a wing.

[@cramalnig]

Crikey! For a bloke - he could shift! It's good to see a forward who can mix his pace amongst the backs.

[@leroy5383]

Mooi Sprinter..

[@xpat73]

Notably there are no clips in this highlight reel from any of the 3 tests he played agains the Lions in 2009....not surprising because he did nothing. Says it all really.

[@RealRugby]

We just put in clips of where he scored tries. So if he was useless in the Lions series based on that, other players who were useless were Fourie Du Preez, Francois Steyn, Jean De Villiers, Victor Matfield and Bakkies Botha

[@ngatokoruarima5122]

I thought the same after watching the whole reel that this was only moments when he scored tries. The only memory I have of this great man was when he steamrolled an upcoming All Black Legend by the name of LIAM MESSAM. I may say having no Music soundtrack was a great Idea. Some Live commentary really brings back the emotion and situations when maybe that try mattered that most.

[@reonnell437]

xpat73 u are prob a kiwi supporter rite

[@diogeneslantern18]

His downfall is that he doesn't have the "hard man" mindset of a back rower... He used to be a winger. In any case, he is a huge inspiration to me to this day, but he never lived up to his potential.

[@somerandomguy5600]

PartiZAn18 if he lived up to his potential he would definitely have been in contention for player of the Century.

[@mikecopeland933]

Was a great player but bested by Keiran Read everytime he played him. Read not as athletically gifted but had a harder grafter in the tough stuff. Reminds me of Bobby Skinstead; amazing athlete who never quite reached his full potential.

[@reonnell437]

Mike Copeland lol hahahahahaha keeran reid is way out of sorts for the last year or sou.just becos his namr is keeran reid and he plays for nz means he is the best just look at what hapend to ur kiwi team last year got rocked by the boks and ireland and wil get rocked again this year by wales also kiwi rugby is on a down hill just look at the super rugby log.days of kiwi players being more dominant is long time gone

[@tomstone6875]

👍🏼

[@lm_b5080]

he should've stuck with being a wing

[@kapenajoe4881]

lm bester the reason why SA rugby keeps going backwards cause of you politicians wanna be, PIERE WAS A GIFT AND STILL IS FOR SA RUGBY

[@Aman-pl6om]

Do John Smit

[@cowboyup6744]

If I may ask Real Rugby, were are you from? I'm from Pretoria South Africa. But i later moved to Australia, because the black took over South Africa.

[@devongarvie6261]

So glad you left then!

[@buypropertyforreal]

Nou preek hy.

[@opticnerve8927]

Scots need his blood with their skill and pace they can beat the HGVs of England, Wales, and France

[@Hammersteyn]

5:55 lol nice try

[@captainhindsight8906]

Should have kept him at wing.

[@yaminiasigaunavou7515]

Didn't know he was a winger lol

[@jfk3465]

Only if injuries didn't ruin his career 😢

[@captainhindsight8906]

He should have stayed at wing.

[@justsomeguy665]

I think hé was wasted as a forward should have played with back’s. HIM as a nr13 would have bin deadly

[@DefaultGatewayable]

Ek was saam met hom in Affies, hy was 3 jaar ouer maar ja hy het altyd een of ander iets gewen in sport in die afkondegings

[@xpat73]

A flat track bully who went missing in tough games.

[@phadrigshipp9603]

Henry tualamgi

[@plutoniumnitrate1201]

that no 10 from the blues chip kick was the worst i have ever seen

[@TransurLifeawai]

Spies looked good on paper.....Big, Fast, had played wing in his youth etc etc. But the fact is that he didn't have a rugby brain, and definitely didn't live up to expectations. He inspected rucks and didn't participate, he constantly got driven sideways or backwards, he wasn't skillful, and seemed to become muscle-bound. He should never had played for the Boks. He was Kak.

[@rahowherox1177]

TransurLifeawai you forgot to mention how big a pussy he was and a poser. Imo.