Recurve Limb Speed Shootout | Hoyt Uukha Win&Win | Which Is Faster

Which recurve limb is FASTER; Hoyt Velos, Uukha SX+ or the Win&Win MXT-10 Wood Limb? I put them all to the test and give you, the consumer REAL DATA to make a more informed choice when it comes to Recurve Archery Limbs.
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@hoytarcheryofficial #win&win #uukha

[@daveferguson4659]

Very interesting. Personally I found the uucka limbs less tiring to shoot as the drawweight felt as if it didn't rise much in the last inch of draw

[@VietNT]

Love this type of videos. Thank you so much Jake, keep the good work!

[@adnsystem]

Thank you Jake for this tremendous geeky work. That was as usual full of useful knowledge. keep the good work, you rock.

[@RogueArcheryTV]

This was awesome Jake! I really appreciate the effort you went into to control variables and create a practical assessment for how the limbs would be shot by an actual archer...

[@smalls207]

Jake, thanks for the data! New to barebow and have been shooting for about 8 weeks. Your series has given me a base to be shooting 230s when I couldn't even hit the target 40 days ago. Looking forward to upgrading my limbs and this makes the decision much easier!

[@TheAngelspeed]

The “BEST LIMBS” are the limbs you own and they get better every day you practice ...! If you don't believe me, practice as much as you can and you will see how the 7s become 8s, the 8s become 9s and the 9s become 10s, regardless in they are fast or efficient. "You don't buy points, earn them"

[@mikekupetsky6879]

There is something to be said about using the best possible equipment to gain you every Advantage yes practice a lot but you can't compete with guys who are using equipment five times as good as yours

[@SjengdeKameel]

@@mikekupetsky6879 I've shot a 2500EUR Win&Win set up with x10's the whole 9 yards and I've shot 9+ at short distances and around 8,5 on 70m+. I'm now 12 years out and came back with a 700euro sanlida set with 6 euro carbon arrows and I can barely tell a difference performance wise. After 2 months of shooting I can confidently say I'll be capable of hitting 9+ with this 'cheap' set-up easypeasy. Sure, good gear helps and there is a big difference between a cheap 50 euro bow and a serious aluminium ILF/Formula set-up. But the jump from a sub 1000euro sanlida/kinetic/KAP/etc to a 3000Euro+ Hoyt/Wiawis will not be noticeable for 90% of all archers as they are simply not 'skilled' enough to actually notice it. The biggest difference in quality gain you will get instantly is simply the dureability and the R&D that you're paying for.

[@tradmanmike3360]

EXCELLENT VIDEO! ANSWERED QUESTIONS I WAS LOOKING FOR. ALWAYS THUMBS UP!

[@timgazes5909]

Excellent and very interesting video, a lot went over my head, and a lot made sense, great content as usual. Thank you Jake.

[@franknash6602]

I used to like reading the recurve bow tests that Norb Mullaney ran for Archery World in the days before carbon arrows. I thought that I was long done with archery, but these videos are great to watch. Thanks for posting.

[@tommynolan3088]

awesome! great content, great info. thanks for doing this!

[@jupiter8404]

Very interesting particularly when efficiency is put into the equation.

[@peterchang3998]

Efficiency is about output/input energy ratio. Input energy could be represented by the area of the draw force curve. The uukha in the test is simply stronger during mid draw than Hoyt and W&W. Though the final draw weight at anchor are the same. It only mean the Archer pull harder during mid draw and the limb has more energy input. Hence higher output. So I can Not see the it is more efficient than the other 2. In compound there are so many high speed bows that had near square like draw force curve and their speed were so much higher than their target compounds with same draw weight. one you notice is that felt so much harder to draw as their draw weight is all the way high until near let off. They just worked you harder with the same marked poundage for the higher speed. Not because they are more efficient. If you have one limb require less force to draw yet came out with higher speed, then you can call it more efficient.

[@Lost_Hwasal]

Props whoever designed that force draw machine. That is some impressive work and those graphs look really good.

[@ldftrdnk]

Thank you for sharing all the content you have, hard work, I have no doubt. You have provided a heck a launching ramp for those just getting started in archery, as well as us old farts. You have rekindled, as well as my niece taking part in NASP events with her high school, my interest in archery & sharing my knowledge, limited as it may be, with her and others. With a few very basic fundamentals I can offer, sharing you’re knowledge should usher in a whole other level for those that choose utilize it. I’ve been watching your YT content for a month or two…let’s just say it’s been entertaining & hugely informative. Thank you for proudly & distinguishingly representing our Country 🇺🇸 in the Olympics & continued success to you & yours.

[@ryanbon]

That was everything I hoped it would be and more. Explained everything super well. The data was very enlightening... Can't even count the number of new things I learned from this. A master class!

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

I'm glad it turned out well and I hope the info isn't too confusing!

[@mariusdevalmont7432]

Jake, I can ALWAYS count on you to break it all down. We all know that archery is geometry and physics....and you explain it all so well! You are one of the FEW...People / teachers that take the time to help people with the EQUIPMENT....and TUNING IT....which YOU learned along time ago...was sooooo important to accuracy! While other "Pros" are busy branding and selling caps and finger tabs....YOU....are MAKING ARCHERS...and perpetuating the sport. My 83 year old Father and me are HOOKED on your vids... ....and if you let me know WHAT is involved in BEING your "sponsor"...I just might take it on!

[@mxz_archery]

That was incredible. My background's in research, and I so appreciate the care and attention you put into your methodology. Same way I felt when you started the riser flex tests! Then when I heard 3063 data points I almost cried a little. Keep the archery nerd geek outs coming :)

[@andrewbarham5409]

Great work jake. You literally had to sweat for this one. I would like to see a comparison video on the different price range of limbs from the same company. As do you really get more for the money. Great work, thanks for this👍👍

[@striple6752]

Top thx for the review

[@airman_85uk]

Something that would be interesting to look at is how a 27 inch riser effects the draw force curves of the limbs!

[@staglite]

Great info. Always looking forward to learning something new. Not a big fan of patreon so I bought 3 of tees as a way of supporting you and your channel. Looking forward to doing a video form check in the next month or so should you be available.

[@ffauzan7408]

I've been waiting for this and nice intro Man👍👍👍

[@garyhiggins4315]

It's not the speed of the tuning or the shooting that amazes me, it's the speed of walking to and from the target! WOW!!!

[@benlu]

Fwiw, human efficiency and limb efficiency I think are different, as humans I think we spend most of our time at full draw rather than middraw, so I think the charts don't capture this time component Super interesting setup and data!

[@anthonyhuggins6276]

This was grate DATA, Efficiency or Speed. I say Efficiency less stress on the body and less injury. Grate job👌

[@strugglebusbonsai]

Great content! Looks to be well thought out and fairly executed. Still waiting for MXT-10 34# wood longs to be stocked somewhere...

[@rick1774]

Interesting analysis that made me think. I would agree that the efficiency percentage rates “mechanical efficiency” and is based solely on draw length. But the archer effort is strongly influenced by the time at the various draw lengths in the draw cycle. The archer pulls through most of the draw length in less than a second. Then they spend a few seconds at or near full draw length while they settle into their anchor and aim. The time spent near full draw would the main factor in fatigue and since the three curves are so close at full draw, the Uukha limbs would perform better. Perhaps this explains the perceived effort people note. You could get at this “effort efficiency” using your draw force curves. If you recorded a typical shooting cycle from the start of the draw to arrow release using an arrow marked in draw length that could be viewed in the video, you could create a draw force versus time curve for each limbset. Then the area under the curves would be total effort (lb-seconds) and feet per second per unit effort could be determined. That would be a better measure of whether the extra speed is worth the extra effort to store energy in the Uukha limbs. Of course, this still assumes that effort is directly proportional to draw weight, which I doubt is strictly true, but it is a step closer. Great channel by the way. Sorry for the long comment.

[@williambilse]

Great comparison. I watched the results portion a couple times and I think I grasp the efficiency vs speed explanation. I wish I could speed tune my hunting bows that easily. 😀

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

I wish it was actually that fast

[@mrnomy6669]

Great work ✅...... Very impressive information.....,😍

[@blackspeed69007]

Amazing work Jake!! !

[@MartinTetik]

As much as I like Uukha borrowed from friend, the W&W & Hoyt knows their job very well and probably better. The difference of 4 percentage points is huge. Only the highly curved limbs are sometime designed to be used with smaller brace height, this may have impact and would be interesting to test. Anyway perfect test!

[@rubend.costaperez5728]

Great! Love the geeky style. I noticed you only compare methodically wood limbs vs monolith carbon; have you ever tried to compare efficiencies and speeds between wood and foam cores of the same limb model?

[@rickyng7862]

Very interesting, Its difficult to argue against data, but as someone who have shot the VX+ and Velos limbs for an extended period of time. I find that I am "less tired" at the end of every session with the VX+ limbs. Yes its much more difficult through the middle of the draw curve but in reality I spend so little time in the mid section of the draw curve that being able to get through the clicker easier was a huge significant advantage for me over the velos. Especially in field where an uphill shot where you "lose drawlength" and is also fighting the gravity, the VX+s were a blessing to shoot with. But then again, its difficult to argue against data!

[@ThomasLefevre]

You don't have to argue against the data. I agree with the general premise, that of course the area beneath the curve is the energy stored and efficiency calculations are based off of that. There's one thing though, that isn't quite addressed. It's the angle of the curve, or the weight increase pr. inch later in the draw cycle. This is important! I had a shoulder injury at one point, I had a set of Win & Win NS1 limbs and Uukha VX1000s, which were both tuned for my riser (have 2) and the same set of arrows. I was not able to shoot the Win & Win limbs without provoking my injury, while shooting the Uukhas were just fine. Both limbs at my draw length were #40 OTF.

[@vsrock23]

I think you can argue with the data, because the "curve" in the analysis here isn't taking account the real amount of time during the shot. Ideally the X axis would need be 'time' during a shot process rather than draw length, to get a realistic energy expenditure. Also, spine doesn't have to be a fixed variable. One could shoot a slightly lower weight with the Uukha at the same arrow velocity, with a slightly weakened arrow spine. Overall I think the energy argument drops to ~1% between these limbs for the same velocity, which is minor.

[@winstondon]

Hi Jake, love your work! Curious is the efficiency of the limbs related to draw-length?

[@nightranch6218]

if you unroll the curve of the side profiles of the limbs into straight lines, the more curvy uukha is likely to have a longer unrolled straight line. It usually takes a larger volume of material to achieve that higher stored energy, possibly another contributing factor to the lower efficiency.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

Ultimately mass weight plays a huge roll for sure!

[@texaspete8889]

Dynamic arrow spine at tune is a big variable here. It is a component of the system where you get significant variance in the efficiency. In an ideal world, if spine were consistent (which is impossible because of delta in the draw cycle), you could just measure work done in drawing (F*distance) and netting out POWER output (F * d / time). Considerations for performance are also different for a target archer vs. a bowhunter. Terminal momentum is where the rubber meets the road for a bowhunter, and trajectory is a more important priority for the target archery. There must be give and take. Spine and FOC desireable for terminal performance is different than than optimizing trajectory in a target archery scenario. Efficiency should be considered under those two different circumstances…with respect to arrow design.

[@garyhiggins4315]

One thing that no one seems to explain is that bow tuning is actually FUN! There is nothing to be frightened of, just enjoy! 😊😊😊😊😊😊

[@joergkron4656]

Hi Jake, thanks a lot for the Hard work you did, it would be interesting to see how much different an untuned bow in fps, efficency has.

[@slowmotionarchery]

None - if the arrows weigh the same and have the same nock fit and surface smoothness, it doesn't matter if the tune is several spines too stiff, way too weak, or perfect, the speed is still the same. Based on a 40lb recurve bow shot by a human 15+ times per type of arrow using a chronograph with a 0.1fps resolution (and no weather variability) and grain scale with 0.1 grain resolution.

[@kajala11]

Great job! 😘 Now for the $500 (or less) test of limbs that "everyone else" can afford! 😏

[@bryanjohnlim254]

Aye! 😂

[@DamonHowattHunter]

Yes, a good lineup for the budget limbs would be black max2.0, Das bamboo core. Both about $150 and very well praised. There might even be a samick ILF limb out there in that range as well for a trifecta

[@kajala11]

​@@DamonHowattHunter Was looking to buy the WNS DELTA C2 Carbon/Foam Recurve limbs for $159 at Lancasters.😁 They don't have the Black Max 2.0 in stock in my pull weight. 😣

[@DamonHowattHunter]

@@kajala11 yes I noticed that for a long time black max 2.0 were scarcely available all last year. It hadn't changed when I last checked 3 months ago either. Lots of archery gear is backordered. Even pro shops are waiting on orders they made back in December.

[@kajala11]

​@@DamonHowattHunter Lancaster has most TradTech Black Max 2.0 limbs for a 6/6 ship date but my limb weight was out of stock & on back order. 😣

[@izhernandezz]

Hello, first bit late but great video, I'm about to pull the trigger on some SX's and found your review...awesome, now my question: how would you go about increasing the efficiency with tuning, stiffer spine, shorter arrows ect.. ?? Thanks!!

[@jcgardner5852]

Interesting, I remember when Jennings supposedly had fastest compound but Carrols were much flatter shooting .

[@carlgreen3450]

Hi Jake, firstly thanks for all the videos, it's great to have a more reliable and scientific source of info from an expert. Definitely fits my logical sports science and physio brain instead of just taking people word for things without any justification/evidence to back it up. Anyway, my thoughts on this post and looking at the graph,. Would I be right to think that as my draw length is 31.5" and the curves of each limb line up around this point, that I would gain the extra speed associated with the Uukhas, with no relative increase in draw weight compared to the others, therefore more efficient? If so, I can see that these graphs need to be interpreted carefully for an individual's draw length. I'm writing this in retrospect, so you may have mentioned it and I've forgotten.

[@GregorRajh]

Hi Jake. Just something I noticed. Whenever I turn the tiller bolts on never Hoyt models or my Xceed riser (no self-centering tiller bolts), the string alignment also changes. I now check the alignment every time I adjust tiller bolts. Perhaps it also depends on how many turns you do.

[@user-qb7nx2rj2d]

The difference in efficiency is most likely affected by limb mass/marked poundage ratio. I mean, if you squeeze out from a 40# limb an effective poundage of 46# it's actually not the same thing as picking up 46# in the first place. 46# marked limb has it's own mass heavier than a 40# marked one (for the same lineup) so with the same poundage OTF a 40# limb will be more effective. Yes, we have to work with what we got. I know. Conclusion: pick up an SX+ marked as 38# or so, put it on Gillo GT and squeeze 46#+ out of it. It will be very effective. Warranty will be void, but arrows will fly fast.

[@rickgoing7027]

I would have liked to have seen how the much less expensive Uukha Ex1 Evo2 limbs compared to these three since it shot even faster in your review of that limb. Also when you talked about the uukha having more draw weight upfront and it affecting the dynamic spine that should to me then the Uukha should have had a heavier spine arrow that weighed the same and tuned equally.

[@SilenceNate]

Hi Jake, How does this data compare to the MXT10 Foam limbs??

[@garrymaben8088]

As much as this is an awesome piece of work it's not really fair as the limbs are different poundage. Even if you adjust the limb bolts to compensate the limb. Itself would be slightly different mass.

[@ukasznawalny7038]

Lower effeciency have influence on accuracy , becouse not used energy is transfered on riser.

[@rbass225]

A detailed study like this takes tremendous effort. Thank you! A question/thought - seems like the arrow spine was not a good match for the Uukhas, but was a good match for the others. This seems like a likely cause for the lower efficiency of the Uukhas. If you tested the Uukha's with better matched arrows, seems like the efficiency test result would likely improve. And if you tested the others with the arrows matched to Uukha then perhaps their efficiency would go down also. In this case, keeping the arrow spine identical seems to result in an uneven playing field. Thoughts?

[@petrprause1971]

Very interesting test. Result is that SX+ are faster but I have to use more energy for a shot. OK. But if you want to use work (energy) instead poundage you cant compare. I thoug that (for target) shooters are more important a height of impact with same setup (poundage or work energy). And BH unfortunately is more less diferet by manufactur. That's make disadvantage (or lost of varranty in extreme case (Border)). Also extreme position of tiller bolt make diference. Comparing whole sets (limbs and risers) could be interesting. (Again use W&W rise (or else) give W&W some advantage.)

[@jcgardner5852]

Very impressed by the draw force device and data generated. The differences in efficiency and speed were both interesting and usefull. Hope to see some data on bamboo vs foam vs wood (maple). I have always shot maple cores lately thought of foam. The ukha(sp?) All carbon too one in the club here bought them and I shot a couple of arrows but not enough to really compare. Currently shooting Topoint limbs with good success.

[@jcgardner5852]

Also thank you for all the work

[@bobjimenez4464]

Which topoint limbs are you using and what poundage? I've destroyed Galaxy silver and Kap limbs on the first days of shooting. I'm still waiting for the refund from Lancaster archery for those Galaxy 40# longs. Never buying either brand again

[@jcgardner5852]

Topoint endeavor @38#

[@jcgardner5852]

Oh and 68"

[@bobjimenez4464]

@@jcgardner5852 Thanks, I have a topoint unison riser that I've been using for barebow but have been reluctant to buy their limbs. I did see one expert archer using topoint athlete limbs at the lancaster shoot and with your recommendation I'll give their limbs a try. I bought a set of sanlida X7 limbs #30 - long that haven't broken yet, but they're really loud. Last night I put them on my 25" fivics freestyle setup and pounded the X's at 10 yards....great for the ego : ) Then bought Hoyt 840's #36 - long and I liked them but I gave them to my son with a PSE riser so he could become my shooting buddy / arrow puller : ) Now I'm shooting #40 - long uukah evo1's and they're really lots of fun to shoot both barebow and freestyle but after 50 or so shots I get a little shake during hold. I'm 6'2" and just turned 60 so they're probably a little too strong of a limb for my frail old bones, shaky hands, bad back, bad feet, crooked neck, bad eyes and titanium knees that click when I walk.....lol.

[@JediVampire73]

@Jake Kaminiski Question, if you see this. You spoke about the limbs affecting the spine of the arrow and I got a little lost. All things considered, do the Uukha limbs break down the spine more or less than the Hoyt and W&W? For example, a 600 spine arrow through all of the limbs, do the Uukha cause the arrow to act stiffer, weaker, or spot on? The same for the Hoyt and W&W? Additionally, the software seems great. If no one else mentioned it, it would be cool if clicking on each of the data points at the bottom created another graph/chart to compare visually those specific data points. Maybe even have the ability to include one, two...all, of those points in one visual graphic.

[@huntinglife5202]

My 65lb win & win black wolf limbs on my satori are blistering fast 500 grain arrow 201 fps through the chrono..

[@taterigby8539]

idk if youd ever consider this but you have done Uukha limbs but have you looked into the risers at all? Thinking about making an Uukha build but I live in a remote area for this so was just curious. Great video as always!

[@elllllo]

It would be very interesting how so called "super recurve" limbs like the ones from border archery compare

[@laurentsouchaud1371]

Me too ! And Sinusoid Da Vinci, DK Fenrir, Backwoods etc... on first approximation, Border will be faster on heavy arrows. Not sure they will bear 7gpp at 45 pounds.

[@Sardothien]

Thanks for doing these comparisons, Jake. I suspect that the uukha’s “inefficiency” may also be due to the higher mass weight of the limbs. I worked with a physicist a few months ago to figure out whether a lighter or heavier arrow is better for resisting wind drift (lighter spends less time in the air, heavier accelerates sideways more slowly in the wind, so we controlled for mass and velocity) We ignored the dynamic performance for the sake of simpler calculations, and assumed that two arrows of different masses were tuned on the same bow and had the same profile size. We calculated that the amount of drift from the wind should be inversely proportional to the kinetic energy of the arrow. It follows that a heavier arrow (assuming that both arrows tune identically on the bow) will have more kinetic energy. The energy stored in the limbs has to accelerate the arrow, string, and limbs to different degrees. If the arrow is heavier relative to the limbs and string, it will take up a larger portion of the energy of the shot. Conversely, a heavier limb (mass weight) will take more energy away from the arrow, which is potentially a contributing factor to the uukha’s performance.

[@julietteaumonier5074]

Hi . I’m not a physician, but your explanations are clear. I have UUKHA VX+HM limbs ( wiawis TFT riser) and be happy with. I’m interested to see your video. Thank you

[@julietteaumonier5074]

Sorry « physicist » ( not physician)

[@docjonesy1968]

I'd like to see this video--especially to unpack the kinetic energy issue in more depth. I'd recommend using, if possible, a Phantom Flex camera to really get some great shots from the limbs as well as the arrows in flight.

[@Sardothien]

@@docjonesy1968 Thanks for the suggestions. The kinetic energy issue is something that will be heavily affected by tune, and in practice, it isn’t necessarily going to work the way it does in theory. If you add mass to an arrow, the tune changes depending on where the extra mass is. For our thought experiment, we assumed the extra mass did not affect the tune to simplify the model.

[@jimdon5409]

How much does high temperature affect black limbs?

[@NSPDGI93M27]

Hey Jake 👋🏻 just a question,I’m a barebow shooter and I have a Hoyt formula rider with a formula grand’ prix quattro limbs but I would like to use a pair of uukha limbs……..so…..could you try a pair of uukha on a formula and use the adaptor uukha made?? So y can tell us a real review😅 Thanks!!

[@bobjimenez4464]

after release the bow string whips around but how consistent can it get and is this a limb manufacturer measurement? Does anyone have high speed gear to lend Jake?

[@seanjorgenson8064]

Tech is what its all about. But I want to see the physical testing. Get to the shootout talk then hahahalol.

[@dnakoldarkside6358]

Hi Jake. wouldnt the limbs perform better if you shoot them on the risers that belonged to their own specific brands? for e.g could you try those same limbs on your atfx or meta dx riser and record the performance curve? the data should be interesting. sadly you dont have an uukha riser...

[@phisgr]

On the 3-4% energy efficiency point. Being a mediocre archer, I feel that the stress on my body is better estimated with Force*time, not Force*distance (which is the energy exerted). With that assumption, the extra energy stored in uukha limbs is basically "free". I would love to hear your take on this.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

You’d have to explain that to me more in detail for me to understand your point of view. 4% less work on your part to get the same arrow to fly well and tune is 4% less effort on your system.

[@phisgr]

I'm questioning whether 4% less energy put into the bow is 4% less effort. Taking it to the limit case, when I struggle at the clicker, nothing moves and no work is done. Although no more energy is put into the bow, it is extremely taxing to my body.

[@phisgr]

Using "energy input of bow" to estimate "load on body" breaks down in the limit case of isometric contraction. That's why I thought Force*time might be a better model. And since little time is spent on drawing the bow, my prediction is that the extra energy incurs little extra load to the body. This is of course, oversimplified. And the human body is much more complex. It'd be interesting to conduct an experiment, to see if, or how many fewer, "arrows until exhaustion" for uukha limbs with the same draw weight.

[@InFerrumVeritas]

The process is impressive and well thought out. It strikes me that this process could also be used with well calibrated limbs (the same limbs in 2# increments) to determine optimal limb bolt performance settings. The question is whether that's worth chasing. On a standard riser, I would say no (because the limbs bolts are more useful as a tuning tool), but on something like the Gillo GT it could be very interesting (which third of the adjustment range are you better off in to have the most efficiency at the same real draw weight, and how that effects the DFC). I think it's something Gillo should do.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

I would love to eventually get to that kind of testing.

[@InFerrumVeritas]

@@JakeKaminskiArchery I bring it up, because the limb bolts were in different positions for each set of limbs (which were themselves different weights). That does suit the goal of your test (attempting to measure performance in real world conditions). But it begs the question: would the Uukhas have been more efficient if they were a lower marked weight adjusted to be the same (since you have about 4# of play at 40-46#)? I actually think the W&W would have out performed the Hoyt if they were the same marked weight (given that the current results were within measurement tolerances). This kind of information would be relevant to intermediate and better archers, as it would help them decide which weight limbs to purchase to achieve a specific weight. The tricky part is that I suspect that the information is draw length dependent: what tiller bolt position performs best for someone with a 26" draw probably doesn't for someone with a 31" draw. This isn't a criticism of your test. Your test accurately replicates real world conditions and is absolutely a fair comparison. Instead these are questions raised by the implications of your test.

[@SaneAsylum]

@@InFerrumVeritas You're absolutely correct.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

I agree. 100% and when I can and have the ability to. I would love to do that testing. However I just cannot justify the expense of the multiple sets of limbs at the moment. Some day for sure! And depending on how the sale of my used/tested equipment goes I may be able to fund that type of testing. I wish I had the revenue of some larger KZbin channels that do testing of things to do that... eventually for sure but time needs to elapse.

[@InFerrumVeritas]

@@JakeKaminskiArchery oh sure. Although that type of test could be done with decent quality (i.e. consistent) lower end limbs. I wonder if we could get some patrons together for three sets of Galaxy or WNS limbs...

[@stefanpoll6604]

I really would like to see this comparison between the MXT-10 wood and foam limbs! Can you make that happen?

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

Will work on a foam Vs wood comparison

[@StanielP]

Hey just so you know you have a high-pitched ring in your video when you went inside. I might just have great hearing but nevertheless it’s there when I press play and not when I don’t have it playing.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

The light I was using was giving me an issue. Sorry about that, working on cleaning up my act!

[@arkwibooks6419]

As far as barebow/no clicker application a little less efficiency may be worth, in my limited experience, more forgiving high and low groupings. If the power stroke of the Uukhas is more 'full' it serves to reason that slight draw length variations would have less variance than a limb that gets more of its power in the back. I have definitely discovered MXTs to be more forgiving than NS limbs in this regard. The Gillos have a similar profile to MXTs and have most of the world records now, thanks to Ollie. Yea I know it is the archer not the equipment yhadi yhadi, but at that level .1% better is...better.

[@Kyle-sr6jm]

Where Uukha really shines is when you are shooting a heavy hunting arrow.

[@Rolf-Ka]

what is the best Limb?

[@mikekupetsky6879]

Jake I would like to see this test with a set of Morrison Max 6 or border hex 8 or 9 super curved limbs. I have been shooting them for at least 10 years and for my own personal knowledge as well as videos of others that I have seen, typically you can drop 4-6 pounds off of your draw weight and still outperform lesser limbs

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

Id love to give them a go.

[@RishabhPriyadarshi0]

The extra effort put in by the archer to draw sx+ limbs are mainly at the mid range of the draw force. At a lower draw force, does it really matter if we put more effort in sx+ and slightly less in hoyt or mxt. We spend much more time during the anchor, transfer and aiming than drawing the bow. The real question is how efficient are the limbs when it approaches close to the AMO draw length of the archer? So calculating efficiency on the upper range of the draw force would make more sense. For a weightlifter who can lift 200kg at peak, the difference between the energy spent in lifting 20kg and 25kg weights won't make much sense. On paper he would definitely spend less energy in lifting 20kg.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

I hear you there! But by that logic, the SX+ were also a higher peak weight then the others. So it loses on all accounts then. Minus speed of course!

[@martinottosson6583]

@@JakeKaminskiArchery It would be interesting if you shot 20-30 arrows or so in a row with no rest in between with the Hoyts or the W&W:s (will be the same, most likely) and the Uukhas and compared how tired you got with the different setups. The best would be to use a heart rate strap and record your effort that way in combination with how you would experience the muscle fatique. I am not totally sure that your summary will be verified, but it might be. Just half a second extra at the clicker every now and then, caused by a stackier dfc, would overtake any theoretical efficiency benefits. If you had free access to gear, it would also be interesting to turn the game around and make the speed the fixed variable instead of the arrows. Go for 204 fps, and keep the Hoyt and W&W as they were with the 410:s. With the Uukhas, you would need to turn the draw weight down more (or step down 2-4 pounds on the limbs). Most likely also switch to 450:s to make that work. Most of us choose arrows for our bows and not bows for our arrows anyway. Then you will loose 0.4 gpi so up goes the speed again, and down goes the draw weight. When all three setups are set for 204 fps tuned and ready, you shoot those 20-30 arrows and record your heart rate. Would you get a higher heart rate with the Uukhas then? I highly doubt it. You are going to sleepwalk through that clicker zone, while still getting the same arrow speed with tuned X10:s. For sure it would not be as scientific, but still, it might be more realistic. Atleast if you aim for less body stress, less workload and less risk of injury as you say in the end. Then it would be better to choose a lower draw weight with a smooth dfc while still maintaining those 204 fps. I am no fan of super recurves when score matters, but I find them very comfortable and easy to shoot. From testing them in practical use, I would in no way say that they require more energy over time to shoot the same number of arrows, but rather the exact opposite. (not that the SX really is a super recurve, but close).

[@oldon5881]

The extra effort is happening when the body is in the most vulnerable position. In reality, that 4% efficiency calculated in numbers of arrows by Jake it is becoming bigger when you introduce the possible injury factor while drawing the bow when fatigue kicks in and you want to move the endurance threshold.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

Agree 100% now add in that when at full draw we are using the most efficient position possible with hopefully the best alignment, so that extra workload should be less. 4% more at a position when we are using more muscle recruitment and add the injury potential and I’d rather have less effort required.

[@Sardothien]

@@JakeKaminskiArchery I vaguely remember a statement from Win&Win a few years ago when they released the wiawis ns limbs in foam core, and didn't release a wood core version of the limb. I remember the statement being to the effect that in absolute terms, the foam core limbs performed slightly better. Despite this, wood core limbs are generally more popular on the world stage, and I think this is exactly why. Wood core limbs tend to be easier to draw in the first few inches of the draw cycle, which makes their ratio of (stored energy) / (draw weight) worse. However, that early part of the draw cycle is where your form is weakest, so it seems that many archers prefer to pick up most of the draw weight when their alignment is more established, later in the draw cycle. That advantage regarding form may be more important than the tiny performance gains from foam limbs for many archers.

[@vsrock23]

Does the energy analysis here take into account that you spend most of the shot time holding around full draw rather than in the middle of the curve?

[@ZephrusPrime]

Quattro vs Velos Please.

[@dnakoldarkside6358]

hey jake. what's the importance of speed in target shooting? is it really important? does it make it more forgiving if arrow goes faster?

[@rickyng7862]

Not Jake(Obviously), but maybe I can add a little bit of insight into that: Speed in target shooting essentially comes down to 2 factors -> wind resistance and reach. As Jake mentioned in the video, at 90m in a full fita round (which if youre not in California don't worry about it), 4fps is a extremely significant difference, it may be the difference between having a sight setting or aiming off at a random tree in the distance. For wind resistance, having a faster arrow generally mean that your groups are going to be a bit tighter (assuming draw weight/energy spent is the same). In outdoor, where the wind conditions are constantly changing, while ur arrow may be charging out of your bow at 200fps, by the time it gets close to the target it is going to lose a lot of that energy and generally speaking the more time u spend in the air the more the wind will blow away the arrow. Having a heavier arrow also affects this so keep that in mind as well. So in some ways, arrow goes faster tends to be more forgiving, but do keep in mind that your body's status (fatigue, stress, etc.) are a lot of times more important than the spec on the bow/limbs.

[@dnakoldarkside6358]

@@rickyng7862 thanks for the info.

[@ROCKMAN55661]

I would take 4% efficiency over speed any time of the day.

[@1959TheBear]

If only I could get my draw weight up to 30lbs. Nedermyer calls me worthless and weak. From movie Animal House.

[@thewhiskybowman]

What, no Border Archery HEX limbs? You'll need to start again Jake... ;)

[@darryngalloway7024]

That may not go as swimmingly as you’d expect…. Using the setup in this test the brace height would be a mile off, and the 430 x10 would not be close to stiff enough…… as a result you will end up with a statement that the bow will store a lot of the archers energy but fail to transfer it into the arrow, which would be a lot of hard work for little gain - whereas you’d change the arrow for a heavier and stiffer one, plus be able to use a lower poundage limb to get the same speed…. Jake has done an excellent piece of work here, but both Uukha and to a much greater extent Border are so far from the ‘normal’ that this particular set of test criteria will not provide the best showcase for what they can do. It’s not a criticism of Jake or Border. Jake is trying to standardise for testing, and Border are at the forefront of innovation.

[@thewhiskybowman]

@@darryngalloway7024 My comment was not meant to be taken particularly seriously, it was pretty much tongue in cheek. It was meant more as a shameless plug for Border, with them being follow Scots, as well as being very good at what they do. And no I am not affiliated with them in any way, outside of liking their bows.

[@darryngalloway7024]

@@thewhiskybowman They deserve all the advertising they can get. They are a fantastic outfit that really are leading the way in development and their products are works of art. They’ve done so much, years before others ‘invent’ the new technology or develop similar methods and concepts. True groundbreakers, but I’d want them to be compared in a a way that actually explains the logic behind why they differ…..they will be bastard fast, but the other benefits (such as the ability to transfer energy into heavier and stiffer arrows) would be lost in this test due to the constraints (which would be doing Border a disservice, by shooting them as they are not intended to be shot.

[@shinigami1925]

@@darryngalloway7024 The fact that no one at a high level in target archery uses Border anything, speaks for itself.

[@esnevip]

What's the actual benefit of faster arrow flight? Surely as long as your sight is capable of the right adjustment and you don't have to tilt your body into bad form and the arrow can make it there, what's the benefit?

[@blizzbee]

Less time in the disturbing wind (all directions that push arrow out of where we aim).

[@kirillf.8053]

I wonder if efficiency will increase with the MXT-10 core being a foam, instead of wood. Could you elaborate, Jake? At least a theory based on your experience.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

Will be doing a test to find out Foam VS Wood in the future.

[@Sardothien]

@@JakeKaminskiArchery I'm excited to see this comparison. The mxt-10 wood in this video had the best efficiency scores by speed per stored energy and speed per peak draw weight. I'm curious to see whether the lighter mass weight will improve their efficiency or if the different draw force curve will hinder them. Thank you for all of the work you continue to put into these videos. They are a great improvement to the archery community.

[@peternguyen1911]

Hoyt+Uukha=Hookah

[@andreask.654]

Hi Jake, will you make the draw force curves publicly available?

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

I will yes....

[@andreask.654]

@@JakeKaminskiArchery 😃👍

[@mkangasm]

What would be the "efficiency" if you would adjust all the limbs by speed and not by pounds? I guess uukhas would have the best efficiency then right?

[@bobjimenez4464]

Great question

[@bobjimenez4464]

If you want fun hot limbs go with uukah

[@laurentsouchaud1371]

I would be curious to see what loss of poundage you could get with Uukhas to go back to the same speed than others. And then, that would be be a big advantage over your opponents, I will guess....

[@InFerrumVeritas]

@@laurentsouchaud1371 Other people have determined that it's about 2-4# (at least in the range of mid-30s to low-40s) depending on arrow weight ratio.

[@neilbrooks127]

4% in the archers 🏹 problem to get fitter to be able to compensate..I see loads top archers that don't look very fit

[@reddbow9060]

I think it would be great to have all your findings listed in charts and graphs at the end of the video... Please list arrow weights, draw length, weight of bow at 28" and arrow speed... This info is pretty important... Too much to remember as you are going along... Do away with the chrono and the sun thing... it always leads to some issues... Get the lighting system for the unit... It is always consistent... The video could have been chopped down to about 10 to 15 min. I personally don't need to hear you talk for 2 minutes about issues with the sun and such and watch you tune each bow in... Hope you take these suggestions in a positive way...

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

All of the findings are in the final graphs. You can pause the video and see the data of arrow weight, speeds, bow weight when the clicker clicks etc. Explaining what happened with the sun is Imperative to showing impartial results. 28” means nothing when it comes to draw length as mine is 29.66” I do have the light kit on my chrono as explained at least twice in the video. As far as length, people like to see how the data is collected and the minority can skip to see the results of desired, however showing the process and explaining the how and why is critical to the community understanding as a whole. 🍻

[@reddbow9060]

@@JakeKaminskiArchery Ok... my bad for not being more attentive.. But the numbers are very difficult to see on the bottom of the graph... For some that want to see the raw speed of the bow and want to compare it to other bows out there, speed is usually measured at 28" draw and at ten grains per lb. as a standard... It's difficult to compare at different draw lengths and arrow weights... But, I get it, basically this video was just about those three bows...

[@qiaodantian6661]

Great vid , thanks a lot! Just wondering if the tiller bolt can be adjusted without unstring on the Hoyt xceed? Anybody has experience ? Thanks

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

In my experience, yes. But I do for large weight changes.

[@malhongodwin1933]

Hey Jake, I've been thinking through this... The Uukhas are definitely going to be less efficient from a kinematics standpoint as carbon is denser than foam or bamboo cored laminate limbs... The advantage is they're stronger as the pre-preg layers bond better than carbon to another material, which allows the more aggressive curve. I want to challenge though that draw force curve energy isn't what we need to consider in terms of limb efficiency in comparing to speed, but instead for the example you're giving of effort throughout a shooting session, the time differential of draw force through a shot. In the end, the actual time that we spend at < 80% of full draw in the shot cycle is pretty miniscule, biasing energy expenditure in shooting towards holding weight. While it's a bit more work to figure out, it would be pretty straight forward through time scaling the draw force curve to your draw, then extending the holding weight through the duration of aim/expand/release. This would put the area under the curve in terms of an impulse, (x=time in s, y=force on fingers in lb) which would be used to compare the capacity to work over a practice session or match. Thoughts?

[@user-hc7mi7ft9x]

cant afford sx+ but i got ex1 evo2, still happy, wonder if this one is up there with the velos?

[@InFerrumVeritas]

He did a test with a chrono for that on a different riser. It got very similar speeds to the SX+.

[@matthewyu3531]

Would you kindly tell me what is the arrow weight? I didn't find it. Without arrow weight the speed numbers are meaningless.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

365 grains if I remember right.

[@matthewyu3531]

@@JakeKaminskiArchery Thank you very much.

[@jcann313]

I think I heard you say in the video that your arrow spine was 410. Is this correct? What is arrow shaft length and point weight?

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

Correct. It’s 100gr tungsten and raw shaft is 29” not including nocks or points.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

Total arrow weight 365gr

[@RedmercyGG]

@@JakeKaminskiArchery surprised those 410s would tune at ~46 lbs. According to the Easton chart 46lbs @ 29" should have 500 spine, which would be two spines weaker than yours?

[@derekhunt9118]

Not sure how the Uukha is less efficient yet faster !, or was the test limbs slightly heavier than the others ?. Previous test you showed the Uukha as the same or even slower than Hoyt etc.

[@DeltaFoxtrotZulu]

He said the Uukha’s were 46lb. Others were roughly 42lb.

[@derekhunt9118]

@@DeltaFoxtrotZulu Thanks, Why was he surprised they we're faster ! on the graph they appear to be just .5lb more from what I could see although not that clear, but if you heard the 46lb comment I missed it.

[@marcosolo810]

I appreciate your enthusiasm and all that you do here, especially on technique and set-up, but this shootout seems to lead only to analysis paralysis. Three top of the line limb manufacturers have engineering staff with knowledge and equipment and funding and time you can't possibly equal. It seems to me at this level, the subjective interaction of a high level archer with the limbs becomes much more important than the objective data you've tried to capture. I'm a rank amateur by comparison but I have Uukha VX1000 and Win & Win Inno Ex limbs which I shoot about equally well but, in terms of the tactile, the Uukha limbs feel smoother to draw, easier to control at the end of the draw, and smoother and quieter when released, even without the limb savers I have on the Win & Wins. I would be much more interested in your subjective assessment and comparison of each of these limb sets after using them for a meaningful length of time than data points on a graph.

[@wanr5701]

So speed does not equate to efficiency. So a good question to archers; speed or efficiency?

[@joseluiszenizo5070]

As he said, efficiency will impact more on stamina,i would say that if you can train for that stamina then go for speed. But ultimately go for points, tighter groups.

[@johnbarron4265]

Speed is correlated with efficiency. However, there are other variables that muddy the waters. A huge one is the amount of preload on the limbs from the tiller bolts. The MXT-10 limbs were 40 lbs, and Jake needed to turn the bolts all the way in to get to the ~46 lbs of bow weight that he needs to get his X10s to tune. All that extra preload stresses the limbs more throughout the entire draw, using them more efficiently. Whereas the other limbs were heavier in nominal draw weight and didn't require as much preload from the tiller bolts in order to tune. As a result, those limbs were not being utilized to their full potential efficiency-wise. Arrow grain per pound is another factor that may have slightly affected the efficiencies. Shooting at a higher gpp increases efficiency, and since the MXT-10 limbs were the lightest drawing at Jake's draw length, those limbs further benefitted from shooting a heavier gpp arrow. I guarantee you if Jake had used 40 lb Uukha limbs and cranked them up to 46 via the tiller bolts, they would surpass the MXT-10s in efficiency, and they would be WAY faster because of their superior draw force curve.

[@InFerrumVeritas]

@@johnbarron4265 notably the Hoyt also had one bolt bottomed out (so was effectively bottomed out to achieve tiller). I do think the Uukha's would have been faster and potentially tuned at a slightly lower draw weight if they were 42#. Conversely, I think the W&W would have also performed better in terms of speed if they were 42#, although the efficiency would have dropped a little.

[@SaneAsylum]

Speed doesn't always matter. Efficiency does. Consistency is what makes accuracy. Efficiency contributes far more to consistency than velocity (provided velocity is uniform).

[@johnbarron4265]

@@SaneAsylum Agreed. Efficiency is far more important than speed except in flight archery. Efficiency is one of two key attributes that contribute to a limb that "punches above its weight class" so to speak. In other words, if you use that efficiency to shoot a lighter draw weight on the fingers while achieving the same arrow speeds, then you will be more consistent, and for a greater number of shots, improving your average scores. The other key attribute is the SE/PDF, or stored energy per pound of draw weight of the limb at your draw length. Graphically, this is the area under the draw force curve between brace and full draw, divided by weight on fingers. The Uukha SX+ excels in this regard, thanks to its aggressive curvature profile. The SX+ could have easily been used at a lower poundage on the fingers while matching the speeds of the other limbs.

[@levib7343]

Personally, I would take the Uukhas. They may be 4% less efficient, but if you adapt to that extra exertion, all you have to do prior to a tournament is back a few pounds off the draw weight and you can cruise through tournaments because you're more conditioned.

[@ParabolicBox]

The poundage is set to get your arrows to tune so if you back off the poundage, now your arrows are no longer tuned.

[@athenovae]

Hello Jake, can you test out how shimming the limb rockers up would affect the draw force curve as opposed to not using any (assuming none was needed to begin with)? ^-^ For example if none were needed for tuning, then shimming the bow maxed to 5 (I think) on each rocker would change the pivot angle of the limb relative to the limb pocket and would increase the poundage of the limbs a bit in comparison to not shimming. Would be cool to get a graphical representation of the change and an analysis of any possible changes to efficiency.

[@IsaacateDaqui]

Why do you don't make the test with equal poundage in every limb? Different poundage in evry limb wouldn't affect the accuracy of the test?

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

I have a budget to work within. In a perfect world and a perfect test I’d like to have them the same. The velos and W&W were basically the same (due to being rated at different lengths) but the uukhas were heavier. I borrowed a set of the SX+ and had to work with what I could.

[@IsaacateDaqui]

@@JakeKaminskiArchery yeah, it’s hard working like that! Hopefully some day you get to do it as perfect as possible! I was just wondering about those facts I mentioned. Keep up the good work! Great vid and very useful data!! Would be awesome to see you comeback to the US Olympic team some day!

[@alexsmith358]

Sorry Jake but your wrong on your maths for although your data shows that the limb is less efficient when you draw it only takes a moment that you surely don't even feel, yet you then hold for 2 or more seconds at holding weight which you omitted from the calculation. I find Uukha so much easier to hold so at the end of a tournament much fresher.

[@dusanpavlovic2201]

ok so which is the fastest

[@SaneAsylum]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/mIvdmZZteZx7a5o bottom table says it all.

[@brianmorgan9365]

Sounds like to much work!

[@brawnswolo4057]

Ill be the first to say it Hoyt isn't nearly as good as they used to be it used to be you get what you pay for now its you pay mainly for the name and bragging rights i own a few hoyts and hoyt knockoffs and the knockoffs keep getting better and hoyts keeps getting worse at higher costs and it seems like nobody wants to address it

[@archerry6457]

If only the election had been as fair and transparent. 😂

[@JK-qt5qb]

I dunno. Appreciate that you tried to control for as many variables as possible, but bow draw weight did vary, and it has a substantial impact on some of the findings. For example, the arrow weight per pound of bow weight goes down as bow weight increases. Since you used the same arrow throughout, not the same grains of arrow weight per pound of bow weight, the heavier the bow, the lighter the grains per pound it was shooting, and thus, the more speed that would be expected. Thus, the speed differences were in all likelihood due to the differences in bow draw weight rather than limb efficiency. Too, isn't limb efficiency just a measure of how much energy the limbs imparts to the arrow. And, the heavier the arrow in relation to the limb draw weight, the more energy it extracts from the limb. That being the case, one would expect the highest efficiency bow to be the lowest poundage limbs because they were shooting more grains of arrow weight per pound of arrow weight. I believe that is what you found. But, to compare efficiency among limbs, wouldn't it be necessary to shoot all the limbs with the same gpp arrow weight. Then if one set of limbs is faster than the other, we could say it is more efficient, i.e., imparts more energy to the arrow. For what it's worth. I'm not an expert.

[@JakeKaminskiArchery]

It’s impossible to keep GPP the same. As you change arrow weight it dynamically affects its spine. You’d be looking at an infinite amount of arrow builds and specs to juggle to make that plan work. Heavier arrows act weaker of the same spine all specs kept the same and only the GPI change on the shaft (and keeping the spine the same) This was not a speed comparison in pure speed because it’s pointless if you can’t shoot good groups with that speed. It’s a real world application of are any manufactures faster then others. Most people who shoot Olympic style recurve will keep their arrows the same and buy new limbs to have them. Very seldom do people go to new arrows and limbs in the same move. Unless it is up in large amounts of draw weight. As far as efficiency goes, the limbs mass has more then likely more affect on the efficiency of the system then the arrow weight. I will be running tests to find this out myself and will post findings of course. Thanks for the comment!

[@JK-qt5qb]

@@JakeKaminskiArchery "It’s a real world application of are any manufactures faster then others." If I interpret your results correctly, you found that the heavier draw weight limbs shot the same arrow faster than the lighter limbs, correct? Actually, you don't need to build an infinite number of arrows to test the performance of one set of limbs against the other(s). Just three arrows in this case. Yes, each arrow would be a different weight and each would have a different dynamic spine, which you would then tune to the bow, keeping all the other variables, brace height, string material, etc.constant, as you did in your tests. By shooting the same grains of arrow weight per pounds of bow draw weight for each bow, you control for the differences in actual bow draw weight. When shooting the same arrow on different sets of limbs, the only way to accurately determine that the limbs from one manufacturer are faster than limbs from another in a real world application is to have all of the limbs the exact same weight as configured on the bow.