Red Dragon: Adaptation Showdown

[@Wraste1]

RE: the phone in Manhunter. If you notice in the clip you used, there is no set of buttons or rotary to dial the number. After removing the blank plate, Lector is using the foil gum wrapper to create the pulse needed to dial out. So you are right in a way, he's hot-wiring the phone. That phone wasn't meant to make outbound calls and he's found a way around that.

[@couchbumkino5423]

Thank you

[@kluneberg8952]

there was a kid in the 70s that used whistling to "hack" into a payphone. its called phreaking and is used in the Hannibal tv show

[@carlossaraiva8213]

​@@kluneberg8952it was alfo used in a flashback scene set in the late 70s in the TV series Person Of Interest.

[@carlossaraiva8213]

Using a piece of metal on a phone to get a free call trick is also seen in Wargames.

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@carlossaraiva8213 excellent obscure trivia

[@Nasedo34]

In 1979-80, when the book Red Dragon was written (being published in 81)... A "pop can tab" was different from the item you're conceptualizing and did not look like the item shown in the movie "Red Dragon." In those days, circa 1979, a pop can tab would pull all the way off the can with a little bit of the lid attached. Some people would drop them into their drink so they didn't have to find a trash can. The type of pop tab we have now was introduced in the 80s. In "Manhunter", all of those people knew what the original author meant by "pop can tab" because they remembered how those pop cans looked. They included the candy wrapper because they knew dropping a pop can tab in 1986 would be harder to do. By 2002, they had forgotten why a pop can tab would be on the ground... But in the interest of faithful adaptation, they included an anachronistic version of the item in question. So, in a way, neither adaptation got it right. But "Manhunter" makes more sense

[@chanceotter8121]

I saw Manhunter its opening weekend and think it is pretty near a masterpiece, stylistically and visually very similar to Mann’s first 2 features. At the time, Lector was only a supporting character from the book, and placing his cell in a white and sterile setting is a contrast to the darkness in the minds of both Lector and Graham. The actual location was an art museum in Atlanta, which was a sly way of pointing to Lector’s attitude to his mayhem, and visually connecting it to Dollarhydes’s ultra-modern decor. Also, the later adaptation was saddled with reusing Demme’s vision of Lector in a leftover set from a Corman Poe adaptation, which I always thought was cartoony. Manhunter’s ‘In-a-Gada-da-Vida’ finale is a visual and aural masterpiece of filmmaking, one of Mann’s best set pieces, the darkness of both men fighting in a fallen paradise.

[@scheddoc]

Agree completely. I think Manhunter is a masterpiece and it's one of my favorite films (big fan of the book as well)

[@Silas_Kow]

Bro, any video that brings back Manhunter is great news to me, that film was so different from everything I ever watched that I fell in love instantly

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@Silas_Kow glad you enjoyed it friend 😎

[@Indigo_Gaming]

Oh yeah, now this is another great topic. I finally sat down and watched both adaptations last year, and I was incredibly impressed by how atmospheric and fascinating Mann's adaptation was Hopkins always gets a ton of praise due to his sinister portrayal, but I actually like Brian Cox's more "guy next door" take on him (inspired by a real-life serial killer, IIRC). Overall, I prefer Manhunter due to its sheer dreamlike quality and style. Though I will say that the ending of Red Dragon is a lot more interesting, taking the psychoanalyst approach versus a shootout.

[@nl3064]

To clarify, Michael Mann began as executive producer on Miami Vice. Anthony Yerkovich created the show, then quickly stepped away after a few episodes due to creative differences with Mann (seems Yerkovich wanted a more run of the mill buddy cop show, whereas Mann wnated something loftier and cinematic). So Mann took over as showrunner after only 6 episodes.

[@MrTibster]

Quickly becoming one of my favourite channels without a doubt. Absolutely loving these videos

[@MonkeysMightPuke]

They changed the name of the first movie because producer Dino De Laurentiis had just had a massive flop with a film called Year Of The Dragon, and after that he didn't want to make any more movies with the word 'dragon' in the title.

[@couchbumkino5423]

Thanks! Manhunter seems like the first title they came up with after thinking for 30 seconds

[@KolozII]

I heard it was because Kung Fu films were really popular before then, and people were getting tired of them by the mid 80s. And “Red Dragon” sounded like the title of another Kung Fu movie, so they decided to pick a different name

[@KolozII]

To be honest, both stories are probably true

[@chanceotter8121]

I always presumed “Manhunter” became the title because Mann wanted to focus on Will Graham and his ability to enter the emotions and mindset of the killers, and the serial killer hunting of families to slaughter. It also fits with the ending that it is Graham who hunts down Tooth Fairy.

[@buddhull]

Manhunter is one of my all-time favs. But regardless of that, it beats out the rest stylistically even if it isn’t the most accurate otherwise.

[@TheBS1000]

Why didn't you cover the adaptation that NBC's Hannibal did in its final season?

[@egads3696]

Thats it, im not finishing the video.

[@jvcyt298]

Sometime between 1986 and 1990 a coworker lent me a VHS of Manhunter, he taped it off of HBO or Showtime, it was awesome. This was even before The Silence of the Lambs, so for its time, it stood on its own.

[@amyv.2130]

This should be interesting b/c I cannot imagine anyone other than "that guy from Westworld" playing Hannibal Lecter! Edit: Ah, it's "that guy from CSI" playing Will Graham in Manhunter!

[@lestatdelc]

For me Brian Cox was a far superior Hannibal. That he could give a cold, lucid, rational explanation on why he is is serial killer to Will Graham, is absolutely bone-chilling.

[@mordaciousfilms]

I LOVE Manhunter as just it's own film. I saw it BEFORE I saw Silence of the Lambs, even. It was on Comcast cable when I was a kid or tween and I watched it and LOVED how atmospheric and 80s it was. That whole showdown with "In A Gadda Da Vida" is so damn epic!!!

[@tenimeartstudios]

No season 3 of Hannibal? 😅 For real, though, Mads Mikkelsen is my favorite Hannibal Lecter, as are the rest of the cast of the show my favorite versions of all the Harris characters. PLUS: the one scene of Hannibal & Will in the book & Manhunter is, to my recollection, verbatim to the book, Manhunter, and Red Dragon. There's a great video on here where someone interspliced all three together. It's amazing. (Also, the show also shows Will catching Hannibal.)

[@couchbumkino5423]

Lots of people recommended the show here I’ve got to check it out

[@aarkwrite7240]

I loved loved loved Hannibal the series. Glad they got around to the Red Dragon story arc

[@tenimeartstudios]

@aarkwrite7240 I'm still super sad & super salty at NBC at cancelling it & the DeLaurentis Company for hoarding the Silence of the Lambs rights. I know it's mostly rumors & no actual Fuller-involved plans, but Elliott Page as Clarice Starling & Lee Pace as Buffalo Bill would've been SO GOOD. And the PERFECT final season for the series.

[@aarkwrite7240]

@@tenimeartstudios right? That casting would’ve been great but I would’ve accepted anyone if it meant they could give us their take on SotL. Alas the cancel hammer came down 😭

[@notmyrealpseudonym6702]

Ivd never watched your channel before, really well done! Thank you

[@maxmcgloin]

I read Red Dragon in 1981 and saw Manhunter on its opening day without knowing it was based on Red Dragon. On its own or as an adaption Manhunter is a masterpiece. The later Red Dragon is so over the top it is awful. Brian Cox is brilliant as Hannibal. He is cool and organized, you can imagine him moving through society, whereas Hopkins is theatrical and obvious and would have been caught day one. Noonan is as horrifying as the Tooth Fairy but also manages to show real tenderness. Sadly I think your palate was already overwhelmed with the late films turn it to 11 take. If you have seen Manhunter, please check it out, it is fantastic. You really missed the boat.

[@couchbumkino5423]

You overwhelmed my palate with this comment lol

[@papa._.burkett3535]

YESSSS BEEN WAITING FOR ANOTHER BOOK TO FILM ANALYSIS!!

[@unshdhGbzbs]

How does this guy not have millions of subscribers

[@garyfoss4394]

It might just be that I saw Manhunter when it came out, but I'm not as enamored with Hopkins version of the character as most people seem to be. Don't get me wrong, I still like Hopkins' performance, but Brian Cox plays a much more physical Lekter (or Lecktor) than Hopkins. He's more menacing in a primal sense. I can see that character as a cannibal more readily than the more restrained Hopkins version. He'd revel in the violence and pain or its own sake. Hopkin's version is more cerebral and those things are somewhat byproducts than things in and of themselves. Of course, Hopkins also had multiple appearances as the character to fill it out more fully, which gives his version more a lead, especially since he plays Red Dragon after having already cut his teeth (as it were) in Silence of the Lambs. It does make me wonder what Cox would have done with the character had he played him again.... We'll never know.

[@htershane]

Firstly, I love both films. I cope quite happily with both in my collection. As a film about hunting a serial killer “Manhunter” is just brilliant, ahead of its time but weirdly very of its time too. As a Hannibal film I’m less enthused but then “Manhunter” was not made as a Hannibal flick or with an eye on franchise making. “Red Dragon” was very much made with a franchise in mind, with added Hannibal for good measure but still a pretty good adaptation of the novel in its own right even if I find Ratner’s direction a bit indistinctive. Both “Tooth Fairy”s are brilliant, Fiennes take on Dolarhyde more sympathetic but Noonan’s (still) terrifying version definitely gives “Manhunter” an edge there I think. Hopkins’ Hannibal absolutely stole “SOTL” I think AH won the Oscar for the performance for precisely that reason. Cox however didn’t steal “Manhunter’ not because of any perceived inferiority of performance but because he played it much more as A character in a story rather than THE character of the story. I can actually see Cox doing “SOTL” but probably in the same way as “Manhunter” he wouldn’t have stood out as much as Hopkins did and consequently Hannibal would probably not be the iconic anti-hero he is now. Had Michael Mann cast Hopkins as Hannibal is an interesting notion, but I think it would be still be along the lines of what we see in “Silence”. If I want to watch a superior serial killer film I’d go for “Manhunter” if I want to watch a Hannibal film id probably go for …er…”Hannibal”😂

[@josephsecker402]

Thank you. That was a great comparison. I saw Manhunter after I saw Silence of the Lambs, so I was a little prejudice about the character.

[@cthulhu306]

PLEASE do a video on all the invasion of the body snatchers versions. I love your stuff

[@couchbumkino5423]

Thanks so much! That one is on my to do list! These take a little while to make (haven't read the book or seen the movies) but stay tuned and I'll get to it

[@courtneyvaldez7903]

The newer version is very well casted, but Manhunter feels so much more realized as story unto itself. The newer version has the weird “we have to shove Hannibal at the audience at every opportunity to sell this product” feeling I just can’t get over. It’s solid-I like having more time with Dollarhyde in Red Dragon, but Manhunter goes for the mystery angle and is the better for it. Its cast is also top tier.

[@ianmpena]

In my opinion tom noonan is scarier as the tooth fairy

[@VonWenk]

Wrigley's Spearmint is chewing gum , not bubble gum.

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@VonWenk Really? I thought it was a type of meat. Like radishes. Radishes are types of meat they are types of nut they are meat.

[@amandabruno3631]

Actually radishes are the red eyeball of god

[@redeem147]

I know you're comparing films, but I'm, both pale next to the Red Dragon story in the TV series Hannibal

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@redeem147 looks like a part 2 is in order…

[@nl3064]

The names are spelled slightly different for legal purposes. Something like they couldn't fully clear the rights to all aspects of the book, so Lector is spelled Lektor, and for the same reason I assume Dolarhyde with the extra L (or maybe Dolarhyde was just mispelled in the credits?). I love it when people complain when they don't know a basic piece of trivia.

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@nl3064 oh well lol feel free to flag my video for terroristic activity

[@NostalgiNorden]

Red Dragon doesn't use lame exposition: ZERO POINTS!

[@aarkwrite7240]

I never realized Red Dragon is older than I am

[@doughbafett]

4:47 Did Manhunter actually say Will Graham was the stepfather?

[@Alienmojo]

I actually liked Brian Cox better as Lector. He looked more like a killer to me. Maybe it was because I saw it first??

[@christophertletski4894]

Odds are you never watched Manhunter when it came out. I loved it when it came out.

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@christophertletski4894 how old do you think I am? Lol

[@blueworldcomics7908]

Trying to think of another book adaptation you can do this with... Stephen King's It comes to mind.

[@yggdrasil2]

Are you planning on covering the adaptation in the Hannibal tv-series? It's really good.

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@yggdrasil2 never seen the show but enough people suggested it that yes someday I’ll cover it 👍🏼

[@yggdrasil2]

@@couchbumkino5423 It basically started off as a soft prequel to the movies, but set in current day and without pretending the actors will grow to look like the ones in the movies. Then season 3 basically says f it and goes for a loose adaptation of Hannibal with some Hannibal Rising sprinkled in, culminating in a surprisingly faithful Red Dragon adaptation in its later half. It works much better than it has any right to be.

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@yggdrasil2 Thanks for the info. I’ve heard some of it before but I look forward to checking it out. I’m guessing it’s like its own timeline/universe separate from the movies and books?

[@yggdrasil2]

@@couchbumkino5423 Yep, it's its own universe.

[@Freshie207]

Are you going to cover the TV show Hannibal? Thats obviously a longer version (Thus I can understand if that's too big a commitment), but it does adapt Red Dragon very similarly

[@couchbumkino5423]

I have not seen the show yet. Is it good?

[@SuperCakeKing]

@@couchbumkino5423the show is far removed from the books and films its got its own charm but very much a modernized take it lacks the artistic/aristocratic charm of the original ip

[@nittonama3]

@@couchbumkino5423 yes its the definitive version of hannibal, as well as the best red dragon adaptation.

[@Freshie207]

@@couchbumkino5423 I liked it, the more sureal imagery reminded me more of Manhunter than Red Dragon, which is the version I prefered in the films. And I thought Mads Mikkelsen gave a really interesting performance as Lector.

[@levischorpioen]

@@couchbumkino5423 It’s the perfect adaptation for people (like myself) who prefer original, experimental takes on already existing source material as opposed to just wanting cheap rehashes (I believe the creator dropped the word “remix” which I think is a fair description as it does play somewhat loose and fast with the chronology of events as we know from the novels and films). It honors the source material wonderfully while injecting its own influences from Nordic crime dramas and art house cinema. It tapers off a bit in the third season (which they quickly had to rehash as a final season even if they originally were counting on a 5-season run), which unfortunately is the one that gets into Red Dragon, but I’d still argue the show as a whole is an absolute masterpiece. I still don’t know how the hell they got away with, well, most of the things they pulled off on that show on a regular cable network. Mads Mikkelsen is also the ultimate Lector. I said it.

[@RightNowMan]

Good video, thanks for making!👍

[@srstriker6420]

How about the Island of Dr Moreau adoptions and Sleepy Hollow?

[@KamikazeCash]

I’m deeply impressed by your continued ability to assess these films through the lens of post-imperialist social hypercapitalism within the cinema industry. I haven’t found a more pragmatic review channel, and I don’t think there is one. Keep up this great work!

[@hashvendetta7226]

Thank you for making this The first comment. Now I can disregard the rest of this video and "do not suggest" the channel. I appreciate you dearly

[@KamikazeCash]

@@hashvendetta7226 You need to work on your Internet literacy

[@wildcrochunter6724]

@@hashvendetta7226you can’t read

[@hashvendetta7226]

@@KamikazeCash I read it just fine

[@KamikazeCash]

@@hashvendetta7226 and you really thought “post-imperialist social hypercapitalism” was a real thing, and that it is part of the woke agenda.

[@charleslennon1]

I'm a new fan, excellent synopsis. Will you critique Heat or The Wire?

[@couchbumkino5423]

Thank you! Heat: saw a long time ago, must re-watch. The Wire: saw it a year ago and loved it, but I'd have to watch it again to fully grasp it, there's so many layers.

[@papa._.burkett3535]

I know it’s not a crazy and elaborate book but the outsiders was one of my favorite books I read growing up, I’d love to see a book to film analysis, I understand there’s only one film so there wouldn’t be multiple comparisons, but I think the story is so good you can fill out an entire video with the similarities!!

[@couchbumkino5423]

I read it once waaaay back in school I’ll look it up again 👍🏼

[@papa._.burkett3535]

@@couchbumkino5423 dope! 😎

[@gachoman2012]

Cox > Hopkins

[@onepcwhiz6847]

Talk about Clarice and Lector at the end of Hannibal (book vs movie).

[@couchbumkino5423]

Haven't read the Hannibal book yet, but I did read what happens at the end and I was like 🤯

[@jpofgwynedd3878]

...yeah, no. Brian Cox is far more chilling for me: Anthony Hopkins turned Lector into a pantomime villain for me... so he's on the table with fava beans and a nice chianti SLURPY SLURPY SLURPY

[@couchbumkino5423]

If that's how you feel that's totally valid. We're all allowed to draw our own conclusions.

[@downix]

While I did not find Hopkins as silly as that, I do agree that Cox was the far more disturbing portrayal for me.

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@downix I think part of it for me is that I watched the Hopkins performances many times growing up across 3 movies and Cox has like 15 minutes of screen time lol I’ve got to analyze it more

[@srstriker6420]

@@couchbumkino5423well I guess you know that Brain Cox was in X2 and it got me thinking about the adoption of both of the Dark Phoenix movie adoption

[@lestatdelc]

Agreed. When Brian Cox explains to Will on the phone, in a calm cold way, why he's a serial killer… "that god kills indiscriminately all the time, so if one does what god does enough, one becomes as god is." Giving a 100% rational argument (in that it is internally logical and rational) fir "why" one is a serial killer is bone-chilling.

[@redfox03]

You’re a beast keep it up ‼️‼️‼️

[@nittonama3]

the show hannibal did the red dragon arc the best.

[@couchbumkino5423]

Goddamnit now I have to watch

[@adsdsds6190]

​​@@couchbumkino5423The red dragon arc only happens at the second half of season 3 so you don't need to watch the whole thing if you wanna do a comparison (though I highly suggest you do :p)

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@adsdsds6190 thank you lol I will probably watch whole thing at some point

[@notmyrealpseudonym6702]

​@couchbumkino5423 highly recommend Hannibal TV series! Just for the visuals alone

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@notmyrealpseudonym6702 I saw one clip and was like 😮

[@therealCrazyJake]

Now do The Hunchback or Notre Dame… Should make for a VERY long video. 😆

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@therealCrazyJake lol there are some I’ve thought of but just don’t want to do because it would take forever. Like Dracula and it’s 5 million adaptations

[@maxmcgloin]

If you have not watched Manhunter do not watch this video until you have done so.

[@speedmastermarkiii]

Mads Mikkelsen's Hannibal Lecter leaves Cox and Hopkins in the dust.

[@vasglorious]

I think both movies have a director's cut, so that's worth checking.

[@couchbumkino5423]

WHAT?!?

[@streetwithoutjoy]

@@couchbumkino5423 Yes, Manhunter has a director's cut

[@Enfixed]

Should've included the TV adaptation but I understand why you didn't due to the prior context needed

[@couchbumkino5423]

And the fact that I haven't seen it

[@McKinnonMitchell]

And for your next video: Red Dragon vs Hannibal Season 3. Make it so.

[@couchbumkino5423]

Eventually yes

[@Queenpierogi1995]

Anthony Hopkins is a legend

[@Percenttwoeff]

Dude yes

[@couchbumkino5423]

Dude thanks

[@onepcwhiz6847]

I'm surprised you didn't know that.

[@couchbumkino5423]

Know what?

[@onepcwhiz6847]

@@couchbumkino5423 sorry.. I was talking about Manhunter. But I'm a big Michael Mann fan.

[@feuerstrassen9446]

Why throw that poor book though?

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@feuerstrassen9446 it owes me money

[@Bosanovadude1]

Manhunter>>>>>>

[@eighto220_fps]

No

[@couchbumkino5423]

Thanks!

[@eighto220_fps]

@@couchbumkino5423oh yes, and there will be more of them, of course

[@couchbumkino5423]

@@eighto220_fps No