Redefining God, Reason, and Freedom with D.C. Schindler and Ken Lowry

In this episode of Voices with Vervaeke, Dr. John Vervaeke, Ken Lowry, and D.C. Schindler challenge conventional perspectives on God, reason, freedom, and community through the lenses of Neoplatonism and Hegelian philosophy. They deconstruct what it means to 'belong,' exploring the concept of 'home' not just as a physical space but as a philosophical construct tied to our intrinsic nature. The dialogue orbits around key principles like spirit, freedom, and the evolution of collective intelligence, or 'Geist.' They discuss Hegel's paradoxical views on Christianity, freedom's misunderstood definition in modern culture, and the transformative power of vows like marriage. Throughout the discussion, the panel navigates the nuanced terrains of reason, rationality, and individual vs. communal freedoms, offering listeners intellectual nourishment and fresh perspectives.
Resources:
D.C. Schindler
Website: www.johnpaulii.edu/academics/...
Ken Lowry
KZbin: / @climbingmt.sophia
Substack: kenlowry.substack.com/archive
X: / kenlowry8
John Vervaeke
Website: johnvervaeke.com/
Patreon: / johnvervaeke
Facebook: / vervaekejohn
X: / vervaeke_john
KZbin: / @johnvervaeke
The Vervaeke Foundation: vervaekefoundation.org/
The Meaning Crisis, A live conversation with Dr. John Vervaeke: rsvp.neuehouse.com/themeaning...
Books
Making It Explicit: Reasoning, Representing, and Discursive Commitment - Robert Brandom
Reason in Philosophy: Animating Ideas - Robert Brandom
A Spirit of Trust: A Reading of Hegel’s Phenomenology - Robert Brandom
Incomprehensible Certainty: Metaphysics and Hermeneutics of the Image - Thomas Pfau
Phenomenology of Spirit - G. W. F. Hegel
Nihilism (Carthage Reprint) - Stanley Rosen
The Psychology of Belonging - Kelly-Ann Allen
Supernatural Selection: How Religion Evolved - Matt Rossano
Zombies in Western Culture: A Twenty-First Century Crisis - John Vervaeke, Christopher Mastropietro, and Filip Miscevic
Freedom from Reality: The Diabolical Character of Modern Liberty - D.C. Schindler
Publications
The Enactment of Shared Agency in Teams Exploring Mars Through Rovers - Dan Chiappe, John Vervaeke
The Experience of Presence in the Mars Exploration Rover Mission - Dan Chiappe, John Vervaeke
Distributed Cognition and the Experience of Presence in the Mars Exploration Rover Mission - Dan Chiappe, John Vervaeke
Articles
Did Meditating Make Us Human? - Matt J. Rossano
Genocide, Domicide and the Unnamed - Brian Walsh
Timecodes:
00:00:00 John Vervaeke introduces the episode and his guests, Ken Lowry and D. C. Schindler.
00:02:18 Vervaeke and Dan Chiappe's book project is revealed: exploring the psychology, cognitive science, and philosophy around reason and rationality.
00:04:33 The main topic of the episode is introduced: a daring reconceptualization of God, reason, freedom, and Geist.
00:07:33 D.C. Schindler delves into Hegel's nuanced relationship with Christianity, providing intellectual scaffolding for the dialogue.
00:09:52 Schindler's description of Hegel's concept of spirit underscores the social nature of consciousness.
00:16:17 Vervaeke touches on the critique of Hegel by Stanley Rosen, introducing alternative viewpoints.
00:19:40 Hegel's often-overlooked relationship with nature is put under the spotlight.
00:24:28 Vervaeke introduces 'niche construction' in biology, challenging Darwinian notions and tying back to the concept of 'home'.
00:27:51 The psychological and social implications of 'home' are unpacked by Vervaeke.
00:30:59 Schindler highlights the role of the hearth, tying it back to human development and spirituality.
00:33:15 Vervaeke delves into the hypnotic nature of fire and its evolutionary relevance.
00:37:35 D.C. Schindler posits the necessity of an 'absolute' in community formation, adding another layer to the discussion.
00:40:00 Hegel's master-slave dialectic and its connection to freedom are introduced by Schindler.
00:45:01 Ken Lowry discusses the modern definition of freedom and how it undermines the concept of community and interpersonal relationships.
00:48:00 Vervaeke dissects the flaws in associating freedom with economic choice.
00:53:20 Freedom and forgiveness are seamlessly tied together by Vervaeke.
01:00:47 Schindler’s critique of Aristotle through Plotinus adds depth to the discussion on the concept of 'good'.
01:08:42 The Aristotelian notion of nature is explored by Schindler, touching upon the idea of intrinsic motion.
01:13:29 Schindler gives a poetic touch, with the essence of beauty being the 'surprise from the other'.
01:17:48 Ken Lowry highlights the importance of reflecting on concepts like freedom, rationality, and love.

[@johnvervaeke]

The Meaning Crisis Live Podcast Friday, November 3rd 2023: rsvp.neuehouse.com/themeaningcrisis

[@UpCycleClub]

Thank you, dear John, for introducing all of us to the excellent work of D. C. Schindler.

[@ReverendDr.Thomas]

Excellent and ordinary are RELATIVE. 😉 Incidentally, are you VEGAN? 🌱

[@hast3033]

I too profess alligence to our Mighty Lord, Vegan. May we all partake of Her Body, Her unending Forgivess which doth bestow Apples Eternally. Amen.

[@TheVeganVicar]

@@hast3033, Good Girl! 👌 Incidentally, Slave, are you VEGAN? 🌱

[@WhiteStoneName]

Yes! I have loved DC Schindler and Ken's work on Climbing Mt. Sophia. Thanks.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

This looks excellent. Lots of topics that are timely. I really have a tough time understanding Hegel.

[@johnvervaeke]

Thanks Paul. I hope you are well.

[@manlikeJoe1010]

100k subscribers, John! I remember 3 years ago coming across your work and thinking, 'how on earth does this guy only have 20k subscribers?'🤣

[@hast3033]

More Schindler, love it!

[@mills8102]

I never heard the relationship between freedom and forgiveness stated before. That's a huge insight. Thank you for the wonderful conversation.

[@GMGMGMGMGMGMGMGMGMGM]

Then you should look into Orthodox Christianity.

[@PaulVanderKlay]

Excellent, did not disappoint

[@WhiteStoneName]

Guess who likes Hegel? 😏 Peter Rollins. (Oh! and JDW. Like the Protestant St. Maximus maybe?)

[@WhiteStoneName]

21:34 Hegel’s definition of freedom: “being at home with oneself in the other”

[@WhiteStoneName]

23:18 vs the “freedom” to choose 💯❤️🙋🏼‍♂️

[@dalibofurnell]

Thank you gentlemen ❤ Bless your hearts 💕

[@sebastiaan_de_vries]

Wow, what an overwhelming richnous of thought. Really grateful!

[@nathanielhunterjr.1806]

I love this conversation... I feel like it inadvertently revealed the reason and rational for the cursing of the serpent in the Garden of Eden and the fall of man. The serpent is cursed to be what it already is, as if to say that being cursed by God is to be cutoff from self-transcendence and locked into self-determination. Man falls for something akin to subverting his attention to what is beneath him and conflating that perception with reality (God). Again, issues of self-determination and an inability to submit ones will to something both greater than yourself and foundational to you. Schindler's analogy of a plant seeking freedom from it's soil is a perfect analogy. Thanks guys!

[@scottjrowan]

Brilliant to see you back together gents! Thank you 🙏

[@Jacob011]

Started reading Plato's Critique of Impure Reason, worked my way to chapter 4, but I have to say, as soon as I read the introduction "Misology and Academia" I knew this book is one of a kind. Really one of those that you'll back on as having changed your life in a significant way.

[@Adam-ex7ct]

This is amazing thank you for all you do John 🙏🏼

[@Mystery_G]

Another unfolding of beauty, love, and gratitude.

[@missh1774]

There is an old wives passage of traditions where every few centuries another story must be hung on the old weavers tree. She teaches every detail of each fold, and together there is a symbiosis recalling, pausing, patterning between the object, the weaver, and the novice. For each pocket and it's closing movement into the next pocket is woven from one continuous yarn as representations of home. Young and old feather for growth and direction, two seeds for sustenance and soil, two twigs from hard and soft woods for apprehension and fire. These were the stories shared as part of a very long line of those who had been summoned to her before and those that will come after. Every detail right down to the bell and its stone and its place on the tree will be carried by the breeze for as long as the wind still passes by it. I have no idea why these video's always send me off in a daydream. Thanks JV, DS, KL 💛.

[@BrotherJohannes]

A conversation truly blessed and truly a blessing to listen in on it! While providing a great primer of sorts on Hegel, I also appreciated the earnest and respectful give-and-take that helped flesh out the subject matter and insights, giving justice to them, i.e., drawing out their meaning so as to recover a greater sense of reality, namely, by incorporating the metaphysical with the physical/biological. Thank you all.

[@andrew_blank]

The conversation around freedom reminds me so much of when David Bentley Hart talks about an understanding of freedom (in a teleological sense as movement towards a rational end or in the realization/fulfillment of one’s nature) over against a contemporary understanding of freedom (here he invokes Nietzsche’s will to power and Heidegger’s will to willing) as a direct conflict of wills with God’s will being the final straw to overcome. Would love to see him in on these conversations one of these days!

[@manlikeJoe1010]

Schindler wrote a whole book on this topic ('Freedom from Reality'), the argument being that the modern sense of freedom is at the core of so many issues today. I've also wanted to see John in conversation with DBH for a few years now. Alas, no signs of this yet.

[@andrew_blank]

@@manlikeJoe1010 I haven’t got into any of Schindler’s written works yet, but have seen him around with JV, Ken, and his praise for Roland in Moonlight. Need to make it a point sooner than later.

[@manlikeJoe1010]

@@andrew_blank Schindler praised Roland in Moonlight? Interesting. Where did he say that?

[@andrew_blank]

@@manlikeJoe1010 His comments are quoted in the book’s front matter along with several others.

[@user-uo3vn7tv4b]

Thanks guys for a wonderful conversation! Especially the community and freedom parts. What I really appreciate is that as a regular Joe who reads alot, I can follow along and of course learn more. You all make these important ideas understandable. I do stop and look up some philosophical terms to refresh myself. And Ken, your an inspiration to me for just taking the plunge into the deep end with John & David and making your own good points.

[@lifearttimes]

Great conversation D.C, Ken & John❤️Göbekli Tepe is/was the hearth, heart & Harmony for WE, I , YOU ,Gäia, Cosmos & The Divine. There are many places like that in the world. It is a high vibrational architecture. There are many around the world. Not just buildings but those who reside within it. In person or in spirit, Then and now. Too many things to say but some other time. Atlantis and many other l ancient civilizations was built with the hearth/ fire at the centre. A shrine of sorts. Shine On!✨

[@ReverendDr.Thomas]

Great and lowly are RELATIVE. 😉 Incidentally, are you VEGAN? 🌱

[@WhiteStoneName]

40:25 Hegel’s “spirit” emerges with forgiveness. Paging Jason “Almond Tree”. ❤

[@kylelaferriere4408]

These conversations generate such gravity, I am again caught in their orbit (perhaps the Greek concept of blessed, "μακαριοσ," is fitting). Ken, I am deeply grateful that you sparked this budding fellowship and for getting these men to spill the tea of their love of Sophia with your excellent quest-ions. As someone somewhere probably has said at some point, "We want every last drop." Like so many others, I first found this corner of the internet through Peterson's conversations with John. I still greatly admire Peterson, but I've felt that he has taken a path that seems so counterproductive. Your comment John about Peterson failing to warn of hubris stood out to me. I immediately see that you are likely referencing our capacity for self-deception, but perhaps there's a bit more there; have you gone into that more in another video? I'm aiming for the balanced view of "the man who ascended to godhood!" D.C., I'm sorry I hadn't encountered your work until only recently. It's wonderful to see the respect and admiration between you and John; I imagine a face to face conversation between you both might rapture you to heaven; we loitering spectators simply cannot have that happen! so please avoid that if you can help it. All, please continue this beautiful dance, ever welcoming the Good so that others might also join the dance and harken the fire that doesn't consume

[@FortYeah]

That was so rich ! Thank you !!

[@FortYeah]

The more I think about it and I think your stance about the importance of life is primordial. And that is the core of Kierkegaard' critique towards Hegel if I understood well Gilson's work "Being and Essence" (which I won't claim I did, far from it !) ; you can have the ultimate model - which Hegel may have found -, what does it tell in the end about existence? It may inform a lot about it but there seems like there will always be a part missing when it comes to resume the whole phenomenon, you just can't leave at the door life. In that regard he adds, no serious historian would use Hegel's dialectic to actually do history. Of course, this adds munition to Aquinas definition of existence - which Gilson deeply agrees with - ; in God, existence and essence can't be differentiated, and in that regard, existence can't just be an accident like a lot of philosophers ended thinking by default. Note that Gilson has high esteem for Hegel, he thinks he may have been the ultimate thinker. But even that alone wouldn't be enough to grasp what reality is. Anyway... Thank you again!

[@pwnangel12]

There is a game called Valheim. Its a viking themed exploration and survival game. They have a mechanic called rested. It gives you a timed bonus to your health and stamina regeneration. You only get this buff when sitting by a fire. So one of the first things you build when making a camp is a campfire, then shelter. Its such a satisfying mechanic. Going out to explore, felling creatures, gathering food, coming back to your hearth to cook and expand. It's a fascinating game, especially when you start playing it with other people, you find yourselves naturally building little villages.

[@willgiorno1740]

Thankyou all, intriguing and stimulating. Keep going please.❤

[@festivalonearth]

Really enjoyed this conversation. When you spoke about freedom and forgiveness, it reminded me of this beautiful passage by the poet Wendell Berry: In our limitless selfishness, we have tried to define “freedom,” for example, as an escape from all restraint. But, as my friend Bert Hornback has explained in his book The Wisdom in Words, “free” is etymologically related to “friend.” These words come from the same Indo-European root, which carries the sense of “dear” or “beloved.” We set our friends free by our love for them, with the implied restraints of faithfulness or loyalty. And this suggests that our “identity” is located not in the impulse of selfhood but in deliberately maintained connections.

[@JiminiCrikkit]

some real gems here. Thank you all

[@RobinTurner]

I'd always hoped that I would be able to get through life without reading Hegel, but I can feel him closing in on me 😅

[@WhiteStoneName]

9:45 Spirit for Hegel: "The I that is We and the We that is I." The Divine Person. Or as we say in the Divine Liturgy: "Christ the only existent one."

[@karimchaya2432]

Very good one👏👏👏. Thank you!

[@Fable031]

1:13:55 "What is responsible for the turning?'" Yes! It's exactly beauty! That's what a large part of Dr. Timothy Patitsas' "The Ethics of Beauty" is about. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd also consider it a masterpiece after reading it; I see Patitsas as the Eastern Orthodox D.C. Schindler, he's had conversations with Pageau. He says that what converts people is an experience of beauty, a theophany, and that doxology is the proper answer to theophany. Doxology is also the first part of prayer. Now it would seem that it is not merely theophany alone which converts, but also the act of doxology on the part of the one who experiences beauty. Remember Kierkegaard's The Present Age? To paraphrase, he decries the lack of action in the present age, the lack of (existential) engagement, which is a big factor in the development of the "levelling" process. To "praise" God after a theophany would be the answer to the problem of the present age since it is an engagement towards Goodness. Think also of book II of the Republic: Glaucon says that he will make a "praise" of the unjust life and he asks Socrates not to make an argument for the just life, but a "praise". This praise must act as a theophany that converts people to a just life. The whole of the Republic I see as such a praise, a doxology that becomes a theophany.

[@b.melakail]

Congrats on the 100K subscribers :)

[@TaaviTuisk]

God does not need redefiniton. We need to free ourselves from the current crumbling zeitgeist.

[@aarontaylor5988]

If I could like this Video more than once, I would

[@iankclark]

Thank you for this wonderful talk. On slavery and freedom, in his Exodus series Jordan Peterson talks about Moses leading the Jews out of slavery but he had trouble convincing them to re-submit themselves, this time to the living God. (This reminds me of your description of marriage as finding real freedom through submission). Anyway, so many 'aha' moments to contemplate.

[@WhiteStoneName]

41:30 John, this is where I’ve been speaking with my good friends Kal and Jason about Forgiveness and atonement. Maybe the unforgivable sin is to not forgive. Because if you do not forgive others, their sins, you will not be forgiven. Reconciliation with God, communion with God, is to forgive.

[@almondtree]

🔥❤️💯

[@almondtree]

53:45 Yes. Forgiveness allows for both the going out and coming home. It is the most powerful force I can think of, and God has given it to men.

[@RickDelmonico]

The committee in my head wants to agree with this.

[@Parsons4Geist]

Seekers of unity channel friend of Vervaeke had Dylan Shaul brilliant work laying out Spinoza's pantheism controversy historical accout thru Spinoza, kant and Hegel 3 part series can speak highly enough of.

[@jgdreshma]

" I that is We. We that is the I." Hegel

[@clintnorton4322]

Ii would argue that the attachment to home, social interaction, and community will, and is, impeding human evolution to transcendent states.

[@Parsons4Geist]

Hegel the philosopher of Love sublation lifting spirit past the subject object divide

[@gilscott1733]

I really found this enlightening a but have a comment on the issue of liberal freedom. It seems to me that freedom (including political, economic choice) is a necessary precondition to transcendence. In other word one has to escape Egypt in order to serve God (however conceived).

[@alxsmac733]

Distributed cognition (or something analogous to it) seems to extend into the realm of artificial intelligence (unsurprisingly), c.f. emerging research on "multi-agent debate".

[@Cr4y7-AegisInquisitor]

Jordan Peterson talks a lot about the tower of babel, too. Isn't that a hubris myth?

[@sudabdjadjgasdajdk3120]

"I that is we" is a nice definition but how do we account for it rationally? How is the "I" also "we" when we know these are two different ontological categories? Unity can't solve the problem because if the "we" is unified it can not be different from an "I".

[@_ARCATEC_]

25:09

[@olafhaze7898]

What about hypertiger? I mean it's obvious to me at least that he is the one you canadians better come to agreeable terms with, that's the trial. He pointed the hard problem already out over a decade ago. How much more time will be wasted? Or do they think they can evade him forever?

[@Fable031]

48:45 it's not only self-deceptive and bullshit, it's pretty much exactly what "evil" is in Dionysius the Areopagite (see Eric Perl's chapter on evil in his book "Theophany"; evil is the absence of intelligibility-goodness that results from the affirmation of being one's own principle of intelligibility, which is actually impossible)

[@johnvervaeke]

Perl’s Theophany is a masterpiece.

[@aphiggs8657]

VERVAEKE AND DAVID BENTLEY HART IMMEDIATELY!!! Please.

[@jutfaseweg9082]

Pfff, nice conversation guys, but the world is on fire!

[@RobinTurner]

True, but couldn't you say that about almost any conversation?

[@winniethuo9736]

The world is always on fire because reason and freedom have not met dawn when man rises. We oppose abortion due to reason and we fail to reason when men and women are wasted under a bullet, sword, or an electric chair, a concoction of some type. We disregard the fact that the future is in our children's children. We carry on doing the same and expect a different result. The world has and is and always will be on fire but being free begins with you.

[@jutfaseweg9082]

I think that within the Neoplatonic model, as often discussed, the basis in Stoic virtues remains underexposed. The transjective can only occur if these basic earthly conditions are met, for the spiritual dimension of Being being able to reveal itself in a safe manner. Wasn't the transjective realm we try to unravel called occult precisely because of the danger of manipulation by influential others, not always resulting in a nice aha-erlebnis around the campfire?

[@missh1774]

🕳️🕷️

[@LordBlk]

Yeah, i find heigel is a bit of a charlatan. For example, the point that he focuses on religion, art, and philosophy is merely a reframing of the good the true and the beautiful. Just like when he breaks down knowledge and reason and understanding he is just stealing from plato dianoiya and techni. But not to mention he was quite the mystic and a hermeticist and he believed via his philosophy he could know objective reality as he comes to know himself as god coming to know himself..... Or something. Marx took his system of thought materialized it and 100 million dead.....so....i donno. Measure things by their fruits

[@gk10101]

if you can define God, you got the wrong one

[@thephilosophicalagnostic2177]

I think they've lost the American historical love of freedom (freedom is our holy word, Star Trek) as opposite of enslavement or servitude. As a sense that each individual human is properly a decision maker and actor and not just a minion. This is serious. This glossing over human history is a huge problem. If this is the sense of the "meaning crisis" these men are promoting, they are doomed from the start. They are rowing against powerful, ideological sense of meaning.