Reformation Theology Vs Orthodox Theology:

#debate #jaydyer #religion
Today we will have a casual conversation contrasting our histories of thought with Redeemed Zoomer. The conversation is not a formal debate but an exchange of Ideas fostered by Kyle.
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[@JayDyer]

Please share these videos to help grow the channel which gets little algo promotion. Be sure to like, share, comment and subscribe as well as turn on notifications.

[@taylorrichardson7596]

What are some ways I could possibly get the opportunity to speak to you on Orthodoxy. I’m coming from an Independent Fundamental Baptist background and have a lot of questions . These questions came coincidently after I believe God drew me towards Himself after years as a nominal “Christian”.

[@wobblyeyez]

​​@@tylerfgc4704agreed. Plus what worries me is he has to call into question the Bible to justify his position; putting fallible people before what scripture says. It shouldn't be too difficult to see the danger here but he's fine with it!

[@bigtittie7295]

​@@wobblyeyez​Who? Jay?​ that would be bc we dont just believe the Church bc its in the Bible, we believe the Bible bc it agrees with the Church. If you argue the former it ends up being circulal. If youre not arguing that then what is your position exactly?

[@wobblyeyez]

@@bigtittie7295 non denominational. Where does it say believe the church in the Bible?

[@bigtittie7295]

@@wobblyeyez we're not Protestant, your question "Where does it say that in the Bible?" is a Presupposition of Sola Scritpora, which isnt found in the Bible itself.

[@CosmicMystery7]

Pray for Redeemed Zoomer. It took me 33 years to enter the Church. After years of atheism, the occult, and a few years discerning between RC and Orthodoxy, Christ finally led me home.

[@nielminor7529]

I hear ya. I'm 46. Just heard of the Orthodox Church in the past year. Mainly from Jay Dyer. At first i thought it was RC. I heard one of his debates and rolled my eyes and posted " these Catholics think they know everything!" I appreciate the responses that got from other followers. I was like Orthodox? Huh? What sucks is everyone i know is Evangelical. Discussing these things with my wife has kinda freaked her out. All the language is just foreign to her.

[@CosmicMystery7]

​@@nielminor7529 my unwarranted advice: take your time and extend grace to your wife and family/friends. Pray fervently and plant seeds of truth, and let them see Christ through you as you enter the Church. I grew up in a Southern Baptist home, and my wife grew up Methodist. She didn't enter the Church with me; it took her several years.

[@Timic83tc]

It's all BS

[@willyb7353]

@@DontDrinkthatstuff Heretic

[@willyb7353]

@@DontDrinkthatstuff "It's a cope" How the hell do you know what it is? Christ is truth, Christ is risen, Christ has conquered death itself.

[@keltonschleyer6367]

The first 10 minutes of Jay silently prepping all his webpage resources is utterly hilarious 😂

[@DisgruntledDocs]

Moments before disaster lol 😂

[@orrorsaness5942]

Amen mate! @@DisgruntledDocs

[@odetafecani1614]

@@DisgruntledDocs😅

[@THApologetics]

Proper preparation prevents p**s poor performance

[@1337Jag]

This kid deserves a lot of credit for being willing to have this debate with an experienced apologist like Jay

[@microwaved_champagne]

he wasnt willing to have a debate he thought it was a discussion lol

[@Richram-wv7uu]

@@microwaved_champagnedebate is discussion

[@goyonman9655]

​@@Richram-wv7uu But discussion doesnt always mean debate

[@chasehaggard161]

Zoomer was super respectful and willing to engage, got a great conversation out of this

[@violetblythe6912]

That's why I've been loving his channel lately. It's rare to see a young person so respectful and slow to anger. He is going to do great things.

[@dubloun]

I've been researching church history for a couple months now, and my protestant upbringing is starting to crumble before my eyes. This is an extremely difficult and sad part of my life; please pray for me guys ☦️❤

[@nezz4168]

God Bless!

[@bewoproductions9097]

It’s not sad. There are a lot of us, and it is actually quite beautiful. Do not be afraid.

[@uganda_mn397]

Galatians 2:16-21

[@bewoproductions9097]

@@uganda_mn397 all that passage refers to is that once you have destroyed your passions and been freed of your sins by Christ, if you once again participate in them, you break down the work you have done, and you have to start over again. There are provided ways to do that. Confession is the place of rebirth into your spiritual labors. You are reborn into your Baptism in confession. We serve a merciful God! It is so simple.

[@reformedcatholic457]

Depends what type of Protestent you are, low Protestant theology will crumble if you look at Anglican or Lutheran it's solid theology.

[@seraphimdunn]

it is sad that this young man seems to genuinely believe that the chaos in protestant sects is a new phenomenon. The entirety of protestantism is inherently chaotic, and has borne that fruit since the beginning.

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

It's a lot of cope tbh

[@orrorsaness5942]

I agree, @@Journey_of_Abundance

[@brainman67]

Gotta agree 👍

[@silverecho1201]

It was honestly the Puritans and after that went full crazy. Now, most Protestantism has been stripped of all remnants of the True Church

[@Calvin-ce7ri]

Can you give me one example of inherent chaos in the Reformed Protestant church in the UK? Thanks

[@autisticheadscarf]

We really need to pray for this guy. Seems like he’s on a serious mission to “reform the church” when really he just needs to come home to The Church 😢🙏🏻 ☦️

[@slavicapybara_7892]

bro building a sand castle next to a kingdom

[@fatstrategist]

Orthodoxy acting like they aren’t the original Protestants lol

[@ilovechrist914]

He will come home you can't escape the truth. And his pretty humble so he will sooner or later

[@polarvortex6601]

@@fatstrategist they are idolaters too. they veneer the icons and the saints things that you dont find in the bible sola scriptura, amen!

[@theeternalslayer]

Well the problem is protestantism says the church always needs to be reformed

[@saint-jiub]

25:38 ‐ Sola scriptura & normative authority 49:45 - ecclesiology/bishopric, succession 52:15 - monthelitism, monoenergism, monergism? 56:55 Free will dialectics & Augustine collapsing nature-person 1:00:00 - how monoenergism leads to monergism (maximus on nature & will) 1:02:50 - universal human nature & resurrection , nature-person distinction 1:08:57 - inherited guilt & original sin & concupiscence 1:28:20 - zoomer concedes inherited guilt, nature person collapse. But doesnt agree monoenergism lead to monergism. + Augustines operative & cooperative grace 1:31:19 - PSA & imputation theology 1:45:00 - EO vs calvinist christology & E/E 1:54:45 - Logos bridging the gap between infinite & finite 1:56:45 - autotheos rejects niceno-constantinopolitan theology [2:02:00 - john calvin distinguishes personal properties only on their relations to one another | 'relations are predicates, not subjects. Persons are subjects. They have idiomata that mark them out as that. ' Aquinas says persons are relations. + Filioque explained ] 2:10:50 - invisible church theory 2:14:58 - PSA: wrath of the Father - question 49, westminster larger catechism 2:16:27 - defeater for lowest common denominator salvation & no normative authority in protestantism 2:28:00 - reformer excommunications & calvinist autotheos rejects niceno-constantinopolitan theology 2:31:29 - binding/loosing powers meaning?+ Why dont EO succesors have same powers? 2:35:00 - protestant vs EO schisms & ethnophyletism 2:40:44 - protestant open communion vs closed communion Ocean spray n cookies invisible church 😆 2:49:04 - how can Jesus hold pharisee's accountable for scripture without having them having an infallible list 2:53:00 "the very things he [zoomer] disagrees with are the very things used on the 2nd century to indicate the true and the false church" ☦️ 2:55:12 - florilegium of reformer PSA quotes & the dale sola scriptura discussion

[@Zangified02]

God Bless you

[@ItIsBlank.]

somebody pin this please, this is really useful

[@liquidh5226]

Please pin this Jay Dyer!

[@jakemendoza1765]

Not all heroes wear capes

[@keltonschleyer6367]

Also, good on Zoomer for being willing to discuss, and he asked critical questions and offered critical responses. Miles above other dialogues or debates on here 😊

[@XiHamORTHOCN]

One of the best and most complete deconstruction of protestant confusion and heresy I've ever seen. What a blessing. Glory to God!

[@orrorsaness5942]

Amen, Glory To God

[@MrDJosh]

Protestantism is not equated to reformed theology 🤦‍♂️. Ignorance is bliss 😂smile😊

[@prosoblue]

I love both Kyle and Zoomer's content. I think if Zoomer learned more about the errors of Protestantism he could become Orthodox. Please pray for him.

[@orrorsaness5942]

Your Right Brother! I'll Pray For Him!

[@salem5291]

Can you tell me what are these errors of protestantism that you said?

[@orrorsaness5942]

@@salem5291 40000+ denominations all stating different doctrines for starters

[@reubendawe292]

@@orrorsaness5942which was almost entirely caused by Jesuit intrigue…

[@orrorsaness5942]

if protestantism can be infiltrated and corrupted that easily, then it isn't a true church. @@reubendawe292 The Communists, the woke, and the jesuits are still trying to infiltrate the Orthodox Church... and still haven't succeeded.

[@lolsing2205]

nah but we really should retake Constantinople 😉 Hagia Sophia should be a church not a satanic temple

[@nicodemuseam]

Let us pray that God grants the return of the temple to the hands of the Church that built it! Glory to Jesus Christ in His Eastern Orthodox Church ☦️.

[@truthisforever1000]

the west is satanic so it wouldnt do any good

[@sihtnaelkk2187]

Well, according to our Saints...

[@MrMegadipper]

The only way we do that rn is by re evangelizing it.

[@lolsing2205]

@@MrMegadipper you never know my friend

[@thane816]

This video is a great example of how much you have "unlearn" in moving from Western Christianity to Holy Orthodoxy. The Aleuts must have had an easier conversation experience.

[@cassidyanderson3722]

Everyone needs to remember that Zoomer is relatively new to Christianity. For people (especially in America) who first learn of Christ through Protestantism, it can take a while to discover the errors you’ve been taught and muster the power and humility to reject them. Jay is a great example of this. Pray for Zoomer. He seems like a kind, smart guy who genuinely desires the truth.

[@Nicki-sv5tn]

Tru plus Americanism instills values that don’t correlate with Orthodoxy, so it might take some times for a zoomed brought up in it to swim above it. I hope he does eventually. The root problems prolly are in the presuppositions to his world view.

[@Elite_Footballer777]

True

[@charlesheck6812]

for a Presbyterian Calvinist, to say he’s never heard of the Son experiencing the wrath of the Father on the cross almost caused him to lose all credibility. For a Calvinist, Jesus bearing the wrath of God as a propitiation in that sense is the heart of the gospel for a true Calvinist. Bizarre.

[@damachinen]

You probably are right, but like much of protestantism, it's possible he is in a unique and different 'version' of Calvinism. I've certainly heard of it, but I've been out of those circles for maybe 10 years, so I'm not sure what's current.

[@Mere-Theism]

There is evange-bapto-pres calvinism, which is closer to evangelical theology, and there is classical reformed theology, which is closer to scholastic Protestantism. I think zoomer identifies himself more with the latter category

[@nielminor7529]

How someone has a KZbin channel and speaks with sort of an authority, with MILLIONS of followers and then admits not knowing everything about what he claims, is weird. These debates have really helped me lean towards Orthodox Christianity.

[@a2zz-gk197]

@@nielminor7529God bless you brother

[@Holy_Discourses]

@@JesusisKing89-fs2kb Where in the Bible itself is the list of canonical books? If Sola Scriptura is to be assumed, by what principle are you using to justify the canonicity of what you consider scripture?

[@alexanderderus2087]

Love this conversation. Most important line of the debate: “Im not bound by Luther” “you aren’t bound by anyone, are you”? Keep up the work Jay 🙏🏼☦️

[@seraphimdunn]

When long hair Jay merges with bookcase Jay, there will be no more heretics with the cajones to challenge him

[@CVilla49]

Wow, just wow, this discussion has really kicked my theological views to the curb in a good way. I've grown up Baptist/Non-denominational and have really only heard about 10% of what Christendom has to offer, so to speak (though it's probably less). This discussion is super high level, I've tried to follow as best that I've can. I've had issue with my current church's theology, which after watching this debate, is something that extends to all Protestant denominations. All I can say is, please pray for me in my journey in Faith. I am really just searching for the truth, the Orthodox theology presented in this video have put forward so many great resources for me to look into. Thank you both, to Jay Dyer and Redeemed Zoomer for setting this up.

[@jaytv4eva]

The cleverest thing Jay did was reframe Zoomer's question on Apostolic Succession so he wouldn't have to give a direct response to it and jumped into the whole "who gave you the canon?" schtick. Christ established the canon by appealing to the one already established as scripture, that DOESN'T mean he approved of all the traditions and rules of the rabbinate. And one more thing: the first churches weren't in Rome or Greece, they were actually in Antioch and Jerusalem...so WHO DIVIDED THE BODY OF CHRIST FIRST? Hint: it wasn't Luther...😎

[@lizvu3266]

Me, my wife and our 7 children will all be baptized/Chrismated in 2 weeks! My joy is overflowing! I wanted to thank you Mr Dyer for your role in this (it was a pretty big one). Is there any way to speak with you directly, even if it's just for a couple of minutes? In any case thank you and may God grant you and your wife many years!

[@faithfulservantofchrist9876]

This is the best discussion I have ever heard. Now I understand why James White doesn't critique Eastern Orthodox because he would be destroyed.

[@pepsivanilla93]

Was just looking for an Orthodox vs Reformed debate last night. Great timing.

[@spiderb3367]

This dude will be Orthodox in a few years if not sooner. He’s a solid person and he will keep digging. Great show Jay bring him back sometime

[@patriciaaustin640]

I enjoyed this discussion. Everyone has a path they take to get to the true church. Mine has taken over 60 years and multiple denominations. I wish I had been blessed with an Orthodox apologist like Jay when I was younger. Might not have taken me this long. Thank you!

[@FallTheFallen]

Im a 16 year old dude and I discovered that Orthodoxy was true at 15.

[@patriciaaustin640]

@@FallTheFallenGlory to God!

[@FallTheFallen]

@@patriciaaustin640 Truly

[@JP-dm8mf]

​@@FallTheFallenI'm 17 and was received last Pascha

[@FallTheFallen]

@@JP-dm8mf Glory to God ☦️

[@renouncreation]

I do think Redeemer Zoomer has real intentions and is genuinely trying to pursue Christian unity through ecumenism. Pray that the Lord brings him home to Orthodoxy in the future.

[@goyonman9655]

And you dont

[@renouncreation]

@@goyonman9655 ?

[@_idiot]

Uhm, QUESTION. WHY is Jay being NICE????

[@BrohoshaphatG]

He sees his younger self in RZ

[@David-kz2im]

He respects the fact that his interlocutor is thinking and civil.

[@wv9459]

I was brought up Baptist. Over the past few weeks I’ve been reading Matthew and other New Testament scriptures. I was so confused by a lot of it with my Baptist background. I heard of orthodoxy from Jazmyne Theodora’s channel a couple months ago. It came back into my head and I’ve been consuming so much information about it over the past week or so. I’m rereading Matthew and Roman’s with this new perspective (orthodoxy) and I’m blown away by how much more sense this is all making……. The closest Orthodox Church is about 45mins from me according to the OCA website. I’m dying to speak with a priest and get questions answered. Im incredibly thankful for the internet. How else would I have heard of orthodoxy? No idea! God bless you all

[@pgaLyfestyle]

Respect to Redeemed Zoomer for engaging 💯. Im grateful for this conversation.

[@XenotypalTV]

This debate nearly destroyed my belief in Calvinism, and might still yet. I'm having a hard time getting straight answers to many of the objections raised in this debate.

[@countryboyred]

The cognitive dissonance you are feeling is because Calvinism is a heresy. I can relate, I used to be a Methodist. Took me years to deconstruct and come to Orthodoxy.

[@XenotypalTV]

@@countryboyred how would you convince someone about the orthodox view of infant baptism? Is it the same as the presby-type view? what about the elevation and crucially authority of tradition to nearly biblical levels? for instance, if one learns something from history that seems to be a historical fact, but tradition says different, do you have the freedom to have your own opinion on certain things? my bad for bombarding you but i've been needing someone to talk to about it.

[@countryboyred]

@@XenotypalTV Jay has a lot of great videos about these topics, so I suggest you watch them because I’m not an expert in this stuff. But I’d be happy to answer what I can. Have you read the Church fathers? Infant baptism was always practiced since the earliest days of the Church. “Believers baptism” was never a thing until the anabaptists during the Protestant reformation. The tradition of the Church is not “traditions of men” like Protestants claim. The traditions of the Church are the traditions given to us by Jesus Christ through the apostles when they set up the Church. These teachings and traditions don’t contradict with scripture. They were established by the apostles who wrote the New Testament. Read Acts to get an idea of how the Church was originally set up. Things like icons, pedocommunion, pedobaptism, the sacraments, relics, liturgical worship, the real presence of the Eucharist etc were always part of Christianity. You can read ancient Church fathers like Irenaeus and Justin Martyr (100 AD) who discuss how the earliest Christians worshiped and how they held their services and it’s the exact same way the Orthodox Church does it to this day. Many of the ancient Church fathers knew the apostles personally, such as Clement. You are allowed to have your own opinions on things. After all we aren’t robots and God expects us to use our intellect. But to have an opinion that differs from the Church and her teachings and councils should be an opinion you should carefully examine to see if it’s true. I had to humble myself a lot because many of the things I learned as a Protestant were simply incorrect.

[@countryboyred]

@@XenotypalTV Infant baptism was always practiced since the earliest days of the Church. The traditions of the Church don’t contradict with scripture. The apostles wrote the New Testament and set up the Church. The traditions were given to us by Jesus Christ through the apostles. Iconography, infant baptism, infant communion, the sacraments, baptismal regeneration, Mary as the Theotokos, the real presence of the Eucharist, etc were always believed by Christians since the earliest times. If you haven’t, I suggest reading the Church fathers. Men like Irenaeus, Polycarp, Justin Martyr all describe what the earliest Christians believed and how their worship services were conducted. Many of the Church fathers knew the apostles personally, such as Clement of Rome. Of course you are allowed to have your own opinion on certain things. God expects us to use our intellect. But if you hold an opinion that’s contrary to what the earliest Christian’s believed, the councils, the synods, the creeds, etc then it would be good to re-examine your opinion to see if it’s correct. I had to unlearn a lot of things and humble myself coming out of Protestantism because many of the things they believe in and teach are simply false.

[@countryboyred]

@@XenotypalTV KZbin keeps deleting my comments for some reason. Infant baptism was always practiced since the earliest days of the Church. The traditions of the Church don’t contradict with scripture. The apostles wrote the New Testament and set up the Church. The traditions were given to us by Jesus Christ through the apostles. Iconography, infant baptism, infant communion, the sacraments, baptismal regeneration, Mary as the Theotokos, the real presence of the Eucharist, etc were always believed by Christians since the earliest times. If you haven’t, I suggest reading the Church fathers. Men like Irenaeus, Polycarp, Justin Martyr all describe what the earliest Christians believed and how their worship services were conducted. Many of the Church fathers knew the apostles personally, such as Clement of Rome. Of course you are allowed to have your own opinion on certain things. God expects us to use our intellect. But if you hold an opinion that’s contrary to what the earliest Christian’s believed, the councils, the synods, the creeds, etc then it would be good to re-examine your opinion to see if it’s correct. I had to unlearn a lot of things and humble myself coming out of Protestantism because many of the things they believe in and teach are simply false.

[@alfred_NE]

Even though I myself don't know how to effectively articulate Orthodox theology or counteract Protestant theology yet, it makes me smile to see someone who does. Thanks for your work Jay.

[@MonsieurRobotic]

Don't worry. Jay doesn't either.

[@DevinMork]

Most comprehensive takedown of calvinism I've come across yet.

[@adamkrejci5469]

RZ doesn't understand that even if someone did not commit a sin of their own will (Theotokos), that person would still need Christ because of the corruption (not guilt) of original sin.

[@Marstang22]

2:46:27 "...The One, True mental institute asylum church with Ocean Spray and cookies." I belly laughed when you said that

[@RickysPlums]

I’m halfway through this and I’m ready to become orthodox lol 😂 Jay dyer is undefeated bruh

[@jaytv4eva]

Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world Orthos and Cats said "Let's use our Apostolic status to seperate from Antioch and Jerusalem" 😎 Blind leading the blind

[@countryboyred]

@@jaytv4evayour comment makes no sense. The sees of Antioch and Jerusalem are present in the Orthodox Church.

[@jaytv4eva]

Nice try, smarty parts. Are Oriental Orthodox the same as Greek Orthodox? Cmoooon now, you can't tell me that every Orthodox person is Chalcedonian. That's like saying Macedonia is Greece!

[@marincusman9303]

Are you gonna charge him tuition??

[@gilbertovalenzuela7118]

😂

[@JohnG-dw2gb]

Fun discussion! Redeemed Zoomer was respectful and professional

[@Biggun3567]

Hope Redeemed Zoomer sees the error of the teaching of Protestantism Pray for him to become Orthodox

[@goyonman9655]

I hope you and Jay Dyer come to see the errors of your world view and return to the Bible

[@Nyx_foc]

@@goyonman9655 The people who made your bible disagree with you. Return to truth and reject satan

[@goyonman9655]

@@Nyx_foc God made my Bible And he agrees I have the words of the people who made the Bible IN THE BIBLE. And there is no Papal infaiability Bergolio and his people did not write the Bible Repent and reject satan Return to God

[@Biggun3567]

@@goyonman9655 prove your interpretation is true without contradiction and you must reject ALL other teaching as heresy because what you think the bible says and others views of what the bible says can't come to the same conclusion.

[@Biggun3567]

@@goyonman9655 If you really think you have the correct judgement of scripture you should make your own church.

[@theimaginator7232]

Dang, this is the best debate so far because you're very patient with guys who don't understand much about history

[@nathanjohnson5554]

Watching orthodox and protestants debate is watching g people speaking two different languages. It really is simple.... is Jesus a liar? No obviously l. Then you cannot be a protestant because the gates of hell will not prevail on the Church. So the idea the church went apostate until the reformation makes a liar of Jesus or disproves Protestantism.

[@ThatsMyChad]

I think one thing I wish Jay would have touched on (which he normally does in these kinds of things so it was a little surprising to me), was on the Theotokos and how she plays into this whole "can someone not sin" thing.

[@ThatsMyChad]

From my understanding the Orthodox teaching is that she both: A) needed a savior and yet B) did not sin. If personal sinning is what necessitates a savior and only that, then the Orthodox position would indeed have to say that it's possible for a human to not need a savior. Likewise if no human has free will to choose and instead we are simply damned by our sinful nature itself, then again Orthodoxy has the problem of synergism of a non-willed action cooperating with a willed one. This is what RZ was trying to get on about, but obviously in the Orthodox understanding these are both incorrect stances and the dichotomy presumes something that they don't agree with from first principals. So I think she is indeed the linchpin here for why this position holds water. Death is what is inherited from Adam, not his guilt or some sort of evil nature, as that would mean a nature (something that is God created) would be not good. The Theotokos inherited the same capacity to age and die as all humanity, as that was the consequence of Adam's sin to all his descendants (just as Jay mentioned with his crack-baby analogy): we're all born addicted to crack, but not born with the guilt of buying and consuming it like our mother was. And thus all of humanity still needs a savior from both death, which we all face, as well as for any personal sins a person may have made on top of that. It's both/and, not an either or. So if one did not choose to sin, as the Theotokos did, then she would still need a savior as death is still the consequence of her being apart of the human race, not something tied to her nature. Now for you and I who have chosen willfully to sin, we now need a savior from both.

[@olubunmiolumuyiwa]

​@@ThatsMyChad Wonderful breakdown!!! Though, how would this work for protestants when most of them don't believe that the Theotokos didn't commit any personal sin?

[@ThatsMyChad]

@@olubunmiolumuyiwa oh this isn’t a proof for the Protestant, it’s meant to show RZ how the Orthodox position cannot be correctly understood under their paradigm and it requires a different understanding of sin and what Jesus did on the cross 🤗 in the discussion RZ couldn’t seem to get past how someone could need a savior but not be ontologically sinful or who didn’t commit personal sin themselves, and in orthodox theology that’s completely possible… because they believe someone did just that. That’s all I meant by the comment. It was for RZ’s benefit not for general Protestant apologetics.

[@JayDyer]

Im aware she is the exception but I wasn’t interested in opening up a new can of worms with a Calvinist on Marian doctrines. I wanted to stay focused on a few topics.

[@ThatsMyChad]

@@JayDyer I know you’re aware, you’re the guy who taught me all this 😂 I just was curious why it didn’t come up but now I know! 🤗 thanks for the explanation. Seems wisdom was the culprit.

[@TeaParty4Thugs]

I'm only halfway through, but i wish Jay had just answered "yes," when asked if it's possible for someone to never sin. Because he already said we inherit the consequences (or wages) of sin, namely death, from Adam. So even a sinless person with a corrupted human nature will still die and need salvation. Redeemedzoomer is falling into the reformed error that sinlessness = perfect, which isn't orthodox

[@turkish-delight]

I agree this is tripping me up. Jay's arguments on this point are not convincing, and Reedemed Zoomer seems to be just following Jays argument to its logical conclusion. Im a fresh catechumen, and this is confusing me.

[@abford03]

It’s not possible for someone to never sin. If it was we wouldn’t need Jesus. The point is that no one can obey the law perfectly and therefore through the law we are condemned this is what Paul talks about in Romans 6 or 7 I think (off the top of my head) the law exists to give us knowledge of sin, we can’t perfectly fulfil the law therefore we have sinned.

[@TeaParty4Thugs]

@@abford03 you're making the same conflation as redeemed zoomer. Sinlessness doesn't mean perfection. It doesn't mean God now "owes" you something. And someone who never sinned still needs Christ to perfect their corrupted human nature. Also Paul says he kept the whole Torah and still needed Christ

[@adamkrejci5469]

I mean the Theotokos was not a sinner by will but "by nature" in that she bore the corruption of the original sin yet did not sin willingly.

[@adamkrejci5469]

@@abford03 wrong. It is possible, but that person would still need Christ because sin is not just what we do but also the corruption on human nature from the original sin.

[@lolersauresrex8837]

Imagine asking a Calvinist if they see a contradiction

[@joshsather4377]

45:00 Not having apostolic succession and authority makes excommunication impossible. This should be simple stuff.

[@kazumakiryu157]

I don't really relate to people who try to hold on to protestantism. I mean, I'm currently a protestant, technically, after growing up as Nondenominational then becoming atheist, then coming back to Christ. But I honestly dropped protestantism pretty fast, since it was and is obvious to me that protestants lack connection to the early church and reject early church practices, so it obviously can't be true. Anyway, thanks to Jay, I've joined the orthodox discord as an enquirer and am going to go to an orthodox church this sunday. I'm also trying to convince my protestant family of orthodoxy, and they seem like they're on their way.

[@spongebombisraelpants2562]

​@@mikebastiatbruh

[@Lupen69]

Good luck 🙏 and God bless🙏I hope it's going well

[@violetblythe6912]

Some protestant denominations do hold on to early church practices, although I would agree that if that ofc orthodoxy is most... orthodox (lol)

[@Ananias17]

hey my brother.... how are you going in your religious/spiritual journey going? have you looked more into orthodoxy since you wrote this comment?

[@TheGerogero]

The things a Protestant is obliged to believe... Suffering damnation without damnation, or non-binding excommunication.

[@olubunmiolumuyiwa]

Wonderful stream, i look forward to the next conversation with redeemedzoomer ☦️

[@FosterDuncan1]

I was shocked when a saw redeemed zoomer and jay dyer?!? Two people I never thought would ever be mentioned in the same sentence

[@defeatingdefeaters]

The conversation at around 25-40 ish minutes was fire, Jason. Good work.

[@jmar2685]

Zoomer has almost 200k followers and no one over here defending him. My guess is this convo will convert lots of them

[@traditionallenses]

Enjoyed this one ☦️

[@andys3035]

Comment for the algorithm. Appreciate your work Jay ☦️

[@gilbertovalenzuela7118]

So grateful for you Jay. This is the 2nd time I watch this one and it’s unbelievable how prepared you are. May the Lord and the Church honor your good work. I pray you never quit making content, it’s truly life changing for the average western Christian

[@theunorthodoxorthodox3328]

"Most of what is taught in calvanist schools has nothing to do with reformed theology." So THATS why all the calvanist get made when I tell them what calvanism is. "You dont understood reformed theology!" Nah, YOU dont understand it.

[@GaryVelardo-rb6nw]

I'd love to see you put John McArthur in his place.

[@sonicgeeksquad4g106]

MacArthur likely would have performed worse than zoomer did

[@GaryVelardo-rb6nw]

@@sonicgeeksquad4g106 Yup, lol

[@x.liquilite.x5435]

Pray for Redeemed Zoomer's conversion.

[@goyonman9655]

I pray for YOUR conversion

[@x.liquilite.x5435]

@@goyonman9655 I'm in the process of converting to Orthodoxy so your prayers for my conversion are appreciated.

[@goyonman9655]

@@x.liquilite.x5435 I meant conversion back to scriptural authority alone

[@xabraxasx]

@@goyonman9655 What did Christians rely on for the first 300 years after Christ's death?

[@janetdavis6473]

Calvinism is completely built on Romans 9. They forget about Romans 10, 11, 12. They never read passages in context.

[@CertainEvent]

Redeemed Zoomer says that protestants have normative authority. That is true, but their authority relies on men. You can be excommunicated from the calvinist church if you disagree. With whom? With Calvin. Simple innit?

[@everlastingphronema9700]

Calvinism may state normative authority, but in actuality it is not the same as Orthodoxy. It can’t be based on their theology. The doctrine of the church is fundamentally different. It comes down, like you said, to having the correct theoretical opinions, but no higher binding of authority. Men’s opinions become greater than church authority and every individual becomes their own pope.

[@countryboyred]

Let’s be real- nobody gets excommunicated in Protestant churches. Even if by some “miracle” you did get excommunicated, you could just go to the church down the street.

[@rprestarri]

The authority relies on God

[@johnpadenw]

God predestined zoomer to lose debate, sad!

[@lordosouls]

Wow, this is such a great lecture! Thank you so much.

[@Judges.]

I remember Jay one time saying he learnt that there is always going to be someone who knows much more than you, I think Jay is that person for most people.

[@Fr.DeaconPatrick]

Great debate Jay! Flawless victory. You are generating some really great content brother. Also really enjoying the spooktober streams, please do another stream with the aliuuums and cryptids. God bless you and Jamie.

[@o.milonova9664]

A very respectrful discussion on both sides - Jay is self aware that he might sound mean, and the other guy does have patience and humility not to get offended. The conversation was enlightening, thank you

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

Zoomer homie got wrecked on every level with surgical precision. It's too bad Jay is mean though.

[@Nashmax]

I don't think Jay was mean at all in this discussion. On the contrary, he was very patient with a clearly wet-behind-the-ears in-process Protestant who was too sure of his beliefs.

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

@@Nashmax I was just joking

[@orthodoxywenatchee2293]

The Reformers practiced "closed communion." Luther would roll over in his grave to hear what Redeemed Zoomer said. Case in point: "It terrifies me to hear that in one and the same church or at one and the same altar both parties are to find and to receive one and the same Sacrament and one party is to believe that it receives nothing but bread and wine, while the other is to believe that it receives the true body and blood of Christ. And I often wonder whether it is credible that a preacher or shepherd of souls can be so hardened and malicious as to say nothing about this and let both parties go on in this way, receiving one and the same Sacrament, everyone according to his own faith, etc. If such a person exists, he must have a heart harder than any stone, steel, or adamant. He must, in fact, be an apostle of wrath. Whoever, therefore, has such preachers or suspects them to be such, let him be warned against them as against the devil incarnate himself.” - Martin Luther. [1] That These Words of Christ, 'This is My Body' Still Stand Firm Against the Fanatics, 1527, in Luther's Works, Word and Sacrament III, 1961, Fortress Press, ISBN 0800603370 ISBN 9780800603373, volume 37, p. 54. (from: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacramentarians).

[@phillipvaleri2754]

Very helpful discussion. "zoomer" myself here. I followed this dude on IG for about a year. Unfollowed him a couple weeks ago due to posts that were really off base from coherent, extensive, and respectful understanding of Orthodox and Catholic tradition. Prayers he watches more of your show Jay. God bless all.

[@TheAlex20396]

This video killed any chance I had of becoming Calvinist or subscribing to Reformed Theology. I honestly wasn’t aware how silly the reformers were.

[@WildAnalog]

This is a debate between a young, inexperienced apologist versus someone who does this full-time. There were enough straw men in this debate to fill a town. Watch some heavy hitters before writing off Reformed theology.

[@TheAlex20396]

@@WildAnalog hey. Sure I always keep an open mind. Any recommendations?

[@jamesb6818]

⁠@@TheAlex20396 Gavin Ortlund his channel is true unities

[@deacon6221]

@@TheAlex20396Watch Matt Slick bs Father Deacon it’s a great debate and highlights the differences. Reformed theology similar to Roman Catholicism is built on sand.

[@Journey_of_Abundance]

Ortlund has the same inherent problems that RZ has. The goal post shifting and special pleading it takes to defend ahistorical beliefs, practices, and organizations are not surmounted by studying and knowing reformed theology better.

[@manwe254]

Hey Jay maybe in the future you could debate Mike Winger? I think that it would be enlightening to his followers (including all my family members lol). I feel like a lot of his followers see the toxicity in evangelicalism with false teachers such as Bill Johnson and Benny Hinn and are trying to figure out reform. I used to be this way but found little hope in it. Then I started looking into Orthodoxy through the Internet and am finding all the answers I needed. Thank you for your work Jay and God bless! :)

[@Fthrjohn2014]

Got me hooked on the longer videos now

[@TopLobster9975]

That was a really good discussion. RZ is a nice kid, I just hope he doesn’t dig his heels in on clearly wrong ideas. Hope he also reads the Cappadocians, too. Take the 1517 glasses off, kid! It’s clouding your vision!

[@NathanielStallings-nf6qi]

No offense to zoomer at all, but he’s not the best representation of Protestantism and that’s not his fault, he is a layman and relatively new to Christianity. All that to say it was a good convo for the most part.

[@luckygoat7344]

There is no "good" representation of protestanism

[@NathanielStallings-nf6qi]

Reformed Protestantism* my comment didnt have anything to do with the truth or falsity of it, I’d just like to here a conversation with someone more knowledgeable… I have a lot of questions I want answers to I’m not saying anything bad about jay or eastern orthodoxy.

[@citizenz4640]

​@@luckygoat7344 yes there is, Gavin Ortlund is amazing in this regard

[@Alex-ii8xb]

Good civil discussion. Pray for zoomer☦️

[@BeyondSeraphim]

so glad you guys could get together for this discussion!

[@faithoverfear6263]

Thank you brothers for having this conversation. I was hoping this would happen.

[@Lupen69]

When Zoomer speaks of his church, it is like its a spirit without a body, yet he seems to interpret the Orthodox Church to mean a body without a spirit. The Orthodox Church is a body of people with the Holy Spirit, not one or the other

[@HellenicPapist]

I cant imagine believing in a god that predestines souls to Heaven or Hell while in the womb, or even before. What an evil, satanic god they worship. May the One, True God help these poor souls.

[@larryjake7783]

Let's get those numbers up, let's get those numbers up. This video needs more likes!!

[@makingsmokesince76]

Great conversation Jay and a superb defence of Orthodox doctrine. 👏🏻🙌🏻

[@_idiot]

Ocean Spray Grape Juice flavored pre-workout by CHOQ

[@sidewaysfcs0718]

On babies being without sin: 2 He called a little child and had him stand among them. 3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me." Jesus literally says we must be like little children to enter the Kingdom, a.k.a to reach Theosis. Saint Ephraim of Syria also says that babies who died even before childbirth will be higher than many adult Saints and Angels in Heaven. We do not inherit the guilt of the original sin, it's equivalent to saying we are without sin when we are little children, despite our human nature still being corrupted by Adam. Also, it IS possible for a non-divine person to grow and not sin, but it has only occured once in history, in Mary. Mary is without Sin

[@deadalivemaniac]

The damning of the Son and monergism being monoenergism in anthropology were the final nails in the coffin in Calvinism to me. Hope Zoomer meditates on this, fantastic discussion! Edit: the annoying bit at the end when he went whatever, sola scriptura was a bit obnoxious. Bring up to these people you don’t have sola scriptura unless you have the right of private judgement, and you find this idea expressed in Turretin and I believe Hodge.

[@benjbaird6851]

I feel like Zoomer was correct, it is THEORETICALLY possible for somebody to go through life without sinning (Theotokos), but it's not virtually (or practically) possible? Either way, sin having no ontological status is extremely compelling.

[@Judges.]

Yeah, what made me feel weird was when Protestant KZbinrs would appeal to unbelieving scholarship and cherry-pick things from liberal scholars which would lead them to many different and weird interpretations. But I would say to myself it was okay because they are scholars and it's me being a crazy fundamentalist. I would also think that using scholarship would be more palatable to atheists.

[@zorigjavkhlan2885]

Jay single-handedly giving me the idea to kidnap mental patients and have the Eucharist with cookies and dr. Pepper………

[@bad_covfefe]

I would have loved to hear RZ answer the question "what does it mean for someone or somrthing to be authoritative/to have authority?" My experience so far is that reformed people are so steeped in rationalism that they no longer have a coherent understanding of the notion of authority itself, defining it as somrthing like "to be correct/to often present correct teaching."

[@joshuaparsons887]

Protestants as a whole have this problem due to Sola Scriptura, as in, they literally have no authority by which to interpret the Bible correctly so everything is subjective interpretation. If they do look to tradition, they pick and choose what they like.

[@LaymanBibleLounge]

As a 3rd party who doesn’t really have a dog in this fight…Zoomer got slaughtered here. Did not seem prepared at all. But I guess that’s what happens when go up against someone with years and years of study behind them when you’re a relatively newer convert to Christianity.

[@damachinen]

Well, yes. However, he did better than almost all protestants. Zoomer does seem genuine, and that should be respected. It's pretty much impossible for protestants to have good arguments and rebuttals because their theology begins by being severed from the history of the church.

[@myriamdiallo4434]

Honestly, he did super well, considering that Jay has been studying theology and church history for as long as RZ has been alive, probably. Also proud of Jay for remaining patient and respectful. All around, good conversation.

[@thwooop9994]

Jay is so knowledgeable on these subjects and it feels just wrong having this zoomer whose very young in his faith trying to debate someone with such a grasp on his own theology. Feels almost like a Sam Shamoun video where he's telling him what he believes and they have to just accept it and rethink their own beliefs on the spot. Praying for zoomer gotta ice up after that though.

[@joshclossick5710]

Meanest man on the internet destroys Calvinism

[@AmillennialMillenial]

Debating is itself a skill, and Jay has the skill honed to a razor’s edge.

[@xabraxasx]

One does not simply debate Jay Dyer

[@texasmagpie]

This poor kid. I respect his love for his faith, but he is just wrong again and again, and is not a good debater. This is like watching ducks being shot out of the sky by an expert marksman. Zoomer really does need to read the early church fathers and early church history and the history of the canon.

[@ducky1016]

Its so obvious... idk how people arent leaving protestantism in the millions

[@Acularis]

It's because Jay doesn't have millions of subscribers... yet.

[@gilcanevascini-lastoriafin9583]

The thing is... They are. Some are becoming woke, some become orthodox, most lose their faith in God along the way, because they were lied to by their fathers.

[@DCWoodWorking]

Great conversation and i believe much needed, always a new set of ears that need to hear these topics discussed.

[@MrMegadipper]

Kudos to Jay for not getting mean, I would have. RZ seem like genuine guy though, praying for him.

[@1991jj]

Redeemed was out of his depth here. This was painful lol

[@Mike-qt7jp]

Here is absolute proof that God does NOT predestine EVERYTHING. In Jeremiah 7 God says, "People built places to sacrifice their children (in fire) to foreign gods, and He (God) says, "I did NOT COMMAND this, nor did it enter my mind." So, who do we believe, Jeff Durbin, RC Sproul, James White, John Piper or God Almighty and His Holy Word, the Bible? So, while God does predestine some things, this verse clearly says NOT everything. It's like a university predestining a football team (they WILL have a team next season) but giving free will to players themselves to decide whether or not to come out for that team. God, in His Sovereignty, has the POWER to give mankind a certain degree of free will to choose to follow or reject Him and His Christ. This free will, given to man by God, started in the garden when God said to Adam and Eve, "You can eat from any tree in the garden except the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil." God did NOT say, "You MUST eat from all of the trees except the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil," rather He gave them a choice to eat from whatever trees they chose, except that one specific tree. And by the way, they CHOSE to disobey and eat from the very tree God said not to.

[@TommyGunzzz]

Overall nice guy, but cant stand anytime Jay made a point and referred to Calvinist teaching he said "yeah but not all Calvinists believe that". His convenient escape hatch to avoid defending a contradiction.

[@AlexanderTate.]

lol 😂 my favorite Jay Dyer quote of the day. Baptists use ocean spray. Lol that’s so good. Spot on

[@newend2116]

Ocean spray and a cookie 🍪

[@Nashmax]

🤣

[@nicolashill8837]

Video summary: calvanist struggles to keep up with based orthdox theology

[@johnlardas3221]

1:45:45 But the Son is God. So is the Spirit. This is what we confess when we say "light of light, true God of true God." You don't need to deny the Trinity is God to deny the filioque.

[@Akazz1988]

Utter reform destruction just in the first 35 minutes