Remember when Sega sabotaged Eternal Champions? - The Flophouse Files

[@MattMcMuscles]

I can't believe I have to clarify this: the usage of DOA footage near the beginning of the video is a JOKE. You can tell, because I had "THIS IS A JOKE" added as text on screen at that particular moment. But dozens of people are seemingly not noticing that. This is in reference to the fact that Virtua Fighter's last appearance in a video game was in DOA5. I thought this was all self explanatory, but I guess I was too subtle.

[@samurizzy]

Nah it's not that you were too subtle. People simply can't read.

[@SoulSeeker20]

Don't worry, we can still be friends.

[@c.glazercrush3994]

Its funny how some games have characters that's nod at other characters.world heroes had gegous street fighter 4 has Seth. I'll show a display. Snk:geese Howard-sega-eternal champion:Mk:Shanghai stung Sega:Paul capcom:guile and Ken Snk:benimaru and kim. Nicali looks like the boss from world herous jet,only he doesn't look metallic.Its not an exact replica but that hair standing up when powered up doesn't lie.

[@gentlejerk]

Why are you acting victimized for. Just a short explanation would have sufficed without your woe is me victim pandering.

[@kaibauer-derrick8068]

Nice voice btw 👌

[@BzaafiedTheFerocious]

I'm usually cool with Sega but "You did too good of a job; you're fired" is some of the lamest BS.

[@lordxmugen]

Sega of Japan is NOTORIOUS of being a petty piece of shit during the 90s. Then CEO of SoJ Nakayama got so pissed that Tom Kalinske (President of SoA) made Sega and Genesis more of a brand name in the West than he did in Japan that both branches basically competed with one another....for no reason other than SoJs pettiness. Having NoA make 32X while it was planning on Saturn, passing on Playstation, giving Nintendo its chipsets for N64. Pretty much ALL OF THAT is Sega of Japan's fault.

[@bobafett4265]

@@lordxmugen Wow, because of petty rivalry, no wonder SEGA failed... 🤣

[@lordxmugen]

@@bobafett4265 pride makes you do a lot of dumb horseshit. Even when youre making money.

[@nick-playercharacter8583]

Is this Sega or WWE?

[@lordxmugen]

@@ahok1937 So many things bad happened. Nakayama HATED it during a visit to see how it was going. Yuji Naka found out about the project and threatened to quit if a Sonic project was being made WITHOUT HIM or his consent. And the final nail in the coffin was the last guy that was working on it HAD TO QUIT THE PROJECT. Because his health was so poor from working so many long hours and pushing himself that the doctor told him if he continues he will be DEAD within the week. And lets not forget that 2 people already died due to overwork while making Panzer Dragoon Saga. So yeah, this project was cursed.

[@TheOldest]

That's a raw deal. Franchise was even financially successful and got the plug pulled on it. Talk about doing everything right and still getting screwed

[@ironmaster6496]

Yeah i mean normally the one who is SUCCESSFULL in various fields is the one that gets to stay, but nah lets just focus on the fighting game whos console engine wasnt even invented yet

[@kenjihirata6834]

That's so~ SEGA!

[@Kpimpmaster]

I swear sometimes it’s like theses companies are trying to screw things up on purpose

[@nomercy5422]

The Japanese was hating and they had more of a say

[@joshuataylor7443]

Can someone give me there opinions about this video? kzbin.info/www/bejne/nnS8l4V9m7CjgZI

[@lordxmugen]

Sega of Japan ruining Sega while Sega of America is making money? Sounds like another day in the 90s.

[@Scorpiove]

I wish Sega of America could have came out in charge.

[@Scorpiove]

@@nicksrandomreviews I would gladly take this scenario. I do wish SOJ would have listened better when SOA put their foot in the sand on pumping out so much hardware.

[@lordxmugen]

@@nicksrandomreviews The thing is Sega was STILL making money Genesis hardware for more years into the next gen than it had to. Kalinske was selling Genesis hardware and the sports games EA was making on Genesis hardware was selling hardcore. They didnt need to bother with extra add-ons and could have put that money toward Saturn or whatever other venture they were into. The problem is those add-ons were mostly a Japanese thing (Japan I guess loved console add-ons), not something most of us westerners were into. I honestly feel like people like Bernie Stolar (who famously said "Saturn is not our future.") were put in charge of SoA during the Saturn lifecycle so SoJ could be like "See!? Fucking Baka gaijins ruining our glorious Nippon legacy!".

[@adobicanobi1303]

@@PsychoWerekitsune and I thought Japan was supposed to be the untouchable god of video games

[@tmoney3862]

@@nicksrandomreviews An EC on the Dreamcast would have been a dream come true. No pun intended.

[@ixtiander999]

Eternal Champions deserved better :(

[@kiko485]

RustInHellThatcher For real. It had so much potential.

[@violetthebat8810]

Indeed! 😭😭😭

[@thecrimsonraven707]

Wow, I remember owning the game.

[@aaronloach]

..."simpleton"

[@hurtstopee1895]

just run it on gens emulator- couldn't diagonal jump! As for SF lacking story, thats fixable: Jacky is off to the shops to buy special hair moose but everyone is trying to mug him and his sister wants it too but its the last bottle! In the end everyone is too busy beating each other up and cloud gets it instead.

[@Noperare]

I love how 90's game marketing was so open about throwing direct punches at their rivals

[@Jabroniville]

Yeah, I remember the endless Sega ones ripping on Nintendo for being lame kiddie stuff. PlayStation had Crash Bandicoot harassing "Nintendo & Sega executives". Battletoads said they "Make Turtles seem like pond scum".

[@joselombana8381]

Sega does what Nintendont that shit is so classic.

[@Jabroniville]

@@joselombana8381 haha as a Nintendo fan it was positively enraging. I so wanted them to fight back, lol.

[@redherronrecords]

@@joselombana8381 that is classic, Nintendont stop making consoles doe.

[@ThunderClapClide]

It was better back then - certainly much more fun, at least.

[@norinori6414]

Sabotaging their own games for no reason seems to be par the course for Sega.

[@Klonoahedgehog]

@@krodmandoon3479 Well 3 understandably never left Japan because it's on a console nobody outside Japan gives a shit about.

[@fernie-fernandez]

Should I mentioned they cancelled Jet Set Radio twice, the 2nd time for Sonic Forces...!?

[@kingoflions827]

@@Klonoahedgehog Nani westerns didnt care about the PSP? VC3 didnt release because of sales figures most likely.

[@Klonoahedgehog]

@@kingoflions827 Didn't it come out well after the PSP was considered a dead system in the west? Like the only company putting stuff on it at that point was Square.

[@kingoflions827]

@@Klonoahedgehog I got the PSP alot later so and its still one of favourite handhelds in terms of the library it has so I thought it was pretty much strong the whole way through. You could be right saying interest died but I didnt grow up here at the time so I cant confirm.

[@WraxTV]

I feel like this "we can't have two fighting games" mentality is what Capcom has adopted, just that they at least have the sense to recognize SF and MvC appeal to two different audiences. Like I feel like we'll never see a new Darkstalkers specifically because they probably think "Why do that when we could do MvC instead?", we'll never see a new Rival Schools because they probably think "Why do that when we could do SF instead?" and we'll never see a new Cyberbots, Tech Romancer, Power Stone, Plasma Sword, Red Earth, Saturday Night Slam Masters or Capcom Fighting All-Stars because "Why do that?"

[@cainekass]

I'm all for a new Rival Schools and SNSM

[@cainekass]

@@JohnDoe-kv3kd I know they have 2 bundles of their old arcade games like Knights of the Round, and Captain Commando. But I think that they have a second one that has fighters. I am about to look it up.

[@cainekass]

@@JohnDoe-kv3kd just a beat em up bundle. Hopefully they do other remakes and not just RE.

[@SnipingIsFun]

They could at least start adding those characters to Street Fighter since some of those franchises, like Rival Turf, exist in the Street Fighter universe.

[@geekgo4]

SNK, Netherrealm, & Bandai Namco disagree.

[@angelmanfredy]

One of my best experiences working at SEGA! I was a producer/ designer under Michael Latham (pronounced “TH” in the middle) and worked on the CD version for the new combo system, some characters, and some moves. Thanks for sharing this story! I also designed NET FIGHTER :)

[@MattMcMuscles]

Yooo, that's awesome! Really wish the series could come back!

[@angelmanfredy]

@@MattMcMuscles me too, bro. Never say never. I just wrapped up a gig as a design consultant on a boxing game. I’d have interest! Thanks again for the great video.

[@targard.quantumfrack6854]

I played the mega drive version, that game won't leave my head and I, for one, sure is interested for a future of this universe.

[@angelmanfredy]

@@fern1146 unfortunately my friend and mentor Michael Latham passes over a year ago. If I can ever design an homage to EC I would. I was lead designer on KO Kings 2000 and 2001 and would hope I could do the game justice. Truly appreciate that you still play! The music, sfx, and imagery are ingrained in my head and heart.

[@anubex234]

@@angelmanfredy i loved the game as a kid, i still come back to it from time to time. Especially for the music, its so good

[@MrSTVR]

Well at least the Virtua Fighter series is still alive and kicking ...as minigames in the Yakuza series

[@AceTrainerX3]

That's seemingly about to change...

[@silburrrrdurrr]

lol

[@tacoman422]

I suppose it's ironic that Eternal Champions, a game about giving the would-be heroes of history a second chance to realize their potential, would be cut down before it could get a second chance of its own.

[@JFLEstudios]

Ah yes! This is all because of Sega's biggest rival during the 90s: Sega... (Seriously, the relationship between Sega of Japan and Sega of America during the 80s/90s was miserable)

[@bdel80]

The 32x and Sega CD is a prime example

[@gc8972b]

@@bdel80 What was the Sega CD / 32X thing again? I remember it was featured in Console Wars

[@bdel80]

@@gc8972b think it was USA was developing one add-on and Japan was developing the other but with no communication, so one addon ate into the others addon for competition especially as one of the addons was just as expensive as the other. Not good to have two addons out together at same time

[@gc8972b]

@@bdel80 thank you. what a mess

[@Dissenter]

They were probably mad that the American branch was overshadowing the Japanese headquarters.

[@sir1thomas1]

I was really thrown off guard by the stomach blob saying, "Welcome to the fight palace."

[@gc8972b]

@@BusinessZeus I think he means that in a good spirited way. It was fun and nicely placed

[@Glasgowliam]

It's so frustrating when a publisher just sits on an IP. They have no intention of doing anything with it, but sheer greed means they won't let others try, even when to do so could make them a profit.

[@dacypher22]

I feel like it could be a huge win-win if Sega actually sold some of these IP that they have no intention of being involved with again (since licensing them would at least rope Sega into publishing the game even if they didn't develop it). Some of them could fetch quite a bit I would imagine. But I think most game publishers are afraid of the image it portrays if they start selling-off IP, since that is usually what a publisher does as they are starting to go under.

[@DmanDice]

@@dacypher22 Its not really about profit at this point. Its admitting they made a mistake pushing virtual fighter so hard. It would also be admitting SOA did something better. Ego and pride..They'd rather go out of business than face that. And they dam near did.

[@captainmega6310]

You mean stupidity?

[@MrStGeorgeIllawarra]

Hello, Konami here, do you wanna play our slot machines? No? You want more Castlevania, Bomberman, Contra, Silent Hill etc. TOUGH! Play our Pachinko machines!

[@wilsonjonah]

Disney has that down pat... but now I'm realizing just how awful Sega was and still is about it

[@BiroZombie]

I still own "Eternal Champions" on Sega Genesis and "Eternal Champions: Challenge from the Dark Side" on Sega CD. Both were fantastic games at the time for me. I would frequently play them. They were much fun.

[@BiroZombie]

@@greenkoopa That's correct, unfortunately. The same goes for the 32x on top and the Sega Genesis in the middle. I still keep them and all the games that I own for all three, however. Well, at least I can still play them on emulators.

[@BiroZombie]

@@greenkoopa Yes, that would be true, but unfortunately, it doesn't work anyway, even with the 32x and Sega CD detached.

[@BiroZombie]

@@greenkoopa That's awesome that you have one for yourself. I've had my Genesis since 1992, Sega CD since 1993, and 32x since 1994.

[@BiroZombie]

@@greenkoopa That's pretty cool. I rented many 32x games back then, but only owned two of them, which were "Cosmic Carnage" and "Metal Head." The Sega CD was extremely impressive to me at the time. The games that I had enjoyed were the games that are mocked now, which are FMV games.

[@boobah5643]

I only ever owned _Challenge from the Dark Side._ I'd played the first game, but I never owned a Genesis; I picked up a JVC X'EYE (which is such a Genesis and Sega CD in one case you can plug a 32X in and it works) when the local Best Buy was eliminating their stock, got _CftDS_ the same way, and never saw the point in picking up the original. Loved the soundtrack, which was on the disc as standard CD audio; Senator's rendition of 'Hail to the Chief' was a favorite.

[@SAPProd]

“Investigating a publisher that forgets about their fighting game more than anyone: Capc-er, I mean Sega!”

[@bobafett4265]

@@erugurara8235 indeed, it's their prized show horse at this point...

[@MrRuano825]

@@erugurara8235 I'm sorry, did you mean POWER STONE?

[@wolfhawk1999]

Darkstalkers in my opinion was one of the best fighting games ever released and--besides Marvel v Capcom--it gets ZERO love and hasn't for a decade

[@SAPProd]

eru gurara oh, you didn’t hear? Capcom gave a GREAT shout out to Power Stone in Resident Evil 3 Remake: they named a whole trophichievment after solving one small optional puzzle in the game! Sure, it’s not a new game or even a proper HD remaster, but in their hypothetical words: “hey, at least it’s better than nothing, right?!” /s

[@SAPProd]

eru gurara Possibly. There’s an ad for a M&M like candy called “Dino-Bites” that many believe is a reference and possible sign of something else to come.

[@baronhausenpheffer]

The history of Sega in the 1990s was basically Sega of Japan repeatedly trying to shoot Sega of America in the foot throughout the Genesis era, then Sega of America blasting off their own toes for kicks and giggles (or maybe out of force of habit?) throughout the Saturn era. Somehow, though, their poor mismanaged developers sure managed to pull a bunch of amazing rabbits out of the hat. Eternal Champions had its problems, especially the crazy difficulty, but it was one of the more impressive fighting games of its era. Soundtrack and storyline were both amazing, too.

[@andrewquick4176]

After the success of Sonic Mania and Streets Of Rage, I would love a return to these characters

[@Ironman1o1]

Boy, it kinda seems like Sega of Japan was the worst thing to ever happen to Sega.

[@markmichaels5867]

Sega of America basically saved the Sega Genesis from obscurity but once they were in full swing, Sega of Japan started butting in and taking power. Similar to how a US team was behind the early success of the Sony Playstation when Sony didn't really believe in it and only saw it as a niche product. As soon as the system was successful the entire team was fired. Console Wars is an excellent book.

[@Ironman1o1]

Seems like it was a typical power struggle then. Classic "You're not the boss of me!" It kinda seems like Sega in general were run by the dumbest, pettiest bastards in gaming (See the Shining Force youtube Takedowns for more of that)

[@jacnoronha]

and now sega owns two dead fighting game franchises....

[@MatthewCobalt]

Which ones though?

[@talhajaved4526]

hopefully they will get their act together after the success of streets of rage 4 a new virtua fighter would be really cool

[@cybergnoll5784]

They actually own 3

[@docb9152]

@@MatthewCobalt Virtua Fighter is now dead too

[@talhajaved4526]

@@cybergnoll5784 eternal champions,virtua fighter whats the third game?

[@saturncrush]

One of the biggest tragedies in gaming history. Eternal Champions was so fresh!!! It just needed a little bit of polish. But the personality and story was so gangster!!! This game needs to come back.

[@Larry]

If you ever want to do another video like this, have a look at Sega Japan sabotaging the release of The Ooze, and trying to convince people it was a porn game!

[@MattMcMuscles]

Will check it out Larry!

[@Larry]

@@MattMcMuscles Sweet, BTW gotta have a chat sometime, be nice to finally say hello :D

[@DrGandW]

Why can I hear you saying this comment?

[@majortom5049]

@@DrGandW He is behind you

[@BrainComm487]

Watching a bunch of these Sega-centic videos in a row, I'm honestly amazed they've lasted as long as they have. They've gotten damn lucky, considering the amount of own-foot-shooting business ideas these guys seem to have had over the years. It's a shame, cos a game like that with time travel affecting character models and gameplay styles during gameplay sounds epic.

[@wilsonjonah]

I love the original Eternal Champions, it makes me so sad that we never got a that Final Chapter

[@thuongn85]

Why do I get the feeling that Suzuki went to the higher ups and told them to can Eternal Champions cause they were taking attention away from Virtua Fighter.

[@LordAlucard55]

As much as I didn't like eternal champions, all of the concepts ot had going for it were outstanding. Upsetting that it went before it had a chance to really bloom.

[@UnclePhil73]

I loved the SEGA CD sequel and played the heck out of it. I was sad that the series fizzled out

[@Wallychans]

The soundtrack to this game was awesome. It was so good that one of the best selling rap albums at the time stole 2 of its beats from this game. Bone thugs n harmony - East 99 Eternal was the album if anybody’s curious.

[@slothschewgum]

Wallychans sampled not stole

[@Tirseau]

Thought I was crazy when chiptune Bone Thugs started playing, nice bit of trivia.

[@marialuke2116]

If Joe Miller had marketed his game with some of the KZbin channels that feature old obscure games, and maybe gaming trivia channels like DYKG, he could have cultivated enough attention to ask the public if he could raise a kickstarter for at least a 2D pixel spiritual part 3.

[@MrJavmastermetaloq12]

Those "Overkills" made MK's "Fatalities" looked like "Itchy & Scratchy".

[@gr8gmr]

@@k.s.2935 I find the kombat fun in the original MK games. Not sure what was "samey" about them. And some fan fictions are good, so not sure what you're saying there either.

[@gr8gmr]

@@k.s.2935 Nobody ever said it didn't. But I've always found the "fan fiction" description questionable. Not all fan fictions are the same.

[@IndigoPhoenix21]

Honestly, I think Eternal Champions has the most interesting story of any fighting game franchise. It has everything, clear and instantly relatable character motivations and backgrounds, high fantasy via time and dimension travel, strong moral and existential themes and more than anything, it feels like an adventure. Idk what it is about fighting games, especially newer ones, in which they have to be so grounded and one note, even MK sometimes, which as I'm typing this really shouldn't make sense, but it does. Bring back EC, Sega.

[@colBoh]

So, Sega's decision to shelve Eternal Champions was pretty much predicated on the reason that it wasn't made by one of Sega's favorite producers. Even though Virtua Fighter was the less successful game. Gotta love the Japanese media industry.

[@friedrichnietzsche7736]

@@JohnDoe-kv3kd you are talking shite. Virtua Fighter 2 is a phenomenal game. Absolutely light years ahead of Eternal Champions frankly.

[@StriderVM]

@@friedrichnietzsche7736 A phenomenal game, but sadly niche. Tekken outsold it by magnitude. And for what? Killed a 2D fighting game series with potential.

[@thesch2867]

@@StriderVM Nah Eternal Champions didn't have much potential but it could have easily coexisted with VF for while, SEGA of Japan probably didn't want more EC games because they didn't like to support projects created by SEGA of America this seems quite Xenophobic in my opinion. While Eteneral Champions didn't have that much potential the way SEGA of Japan treated it was completely unfair. VF didn't kill EC, SoJ did but if that would the case.. VF would've been the better choice anyways afterall the VF series contributed to the fighting game genre with its innovation in each entry (Except the VF5 series) VF4 singlehandledly created the online player card system used in many Japanese arcades along with player rankings and item customization: kzbin.info/www/bejne/r4qXi3toZpeaeM0 and those are just the innovations of VF4. the arcade versions of the first 3 games were technological showcases of the advancement made in graphics with new hardware.

[@StriderVM]

@@thesch2867 But that is the rub, the VF series is basically a failure outside of Japan. If they were more flexible, they would have used EC as their Mortal Kombat competitor (Doing well in the US). But again, Sega was eating itself in the mid nineties.

[@boredomkiller99]

Virua fighter itself was basically mismanaged as well. VF4 for example gain a lot of popularoty on the ps2 now that it was not held back by hardware or being on a failing console. However Sega refused to release updated versions of the arcades killing the scene in America. VF5 came out with online on only the 360 version and a console port of the most updated version of the Arcade didn't come out till long after interest was gone.Add in that Sega clearly create the VF series as am arcafe first and console game second did not help. Both EC and VF were both killed by Sega's stupidity with EC being thrown sacfriced as a blood offering for VF and VF having bad marketing and business choices.

[@Haysey_Draws]

Ahh the 90's, when you could get away with an ad with the phrase "double fisting"

[@jasonx1580]

in a magazine marketed at older children

[@Unquestionable]

From all I've read and seen it seems like Sega in the 90s screwed itself with a mixture of greed and jealousy between branches. The amount of projects that got axed due to SoJ being resentful of SoA's success is staggering.

[@melasnexperience]

Thanks for reminding me that my favorite fighting game from my youth is consigned to history and breaking my heart first thing in the morning. (Seriously, though, another great vid and God DAMN do I miss this duology.)

[@111ram1]

Surprise surprise, Sega of Japan’s rivalry with Sega of America ended up sabotaging itself, again. How did they survive the 90’s at all let alone be successful through them?

[@shakes5847]

They didn't. A old guy who loved the company bought out all of their 500 million in debt and then w 2 years later on his deathbed called the debt null and void. I believe also gave them a couple hundred million to keep the company going. If it weren't for this poor nostalgic soul, they would be long dead by now.

[@zac0918]

they didnt survive the 90's though, more they were slowly killing themselves in the 90's

[@JAhz-um7gz]

This feels like a butterfly effect moment where somewhere in an alternate worldline EC continued to blow up, Shadow Yamato is on the new fighters pass.

[@lexi3312]

That would be something else.

[@wufftype]

I loved this game so much I literally wrote a massive combo FAQ and guide for the game. It's one of only a few reasons that my Mega CD gets played, even to this day!

[@EHH246]

5:50 I can definitely see that. These designs scream "90s action cartoon".

[@witecatj6007]

Sega was a mess post Genesis/Mega Drive. They made so many stupid moves, like developing two 32 bit consoles at the same time and botching both, especially in the Western territories. They became too attached to the Genesis and were too obsessed with how cost effective it was that they didn't catch on to what was going to be the future: 3D graphics. Their other big problem was ignoring all of their Western developers, and Eternal Champions is a perfect example of it. EC was meant for a Western audience that was hungry for games like Mortal Kombat because of how extreme it was compared to other games on the market at the time. If Sega was smart, they could have had both EC and Virtua Fighter coexist and grow the market for those two distinct tastes. Even Capcom was trying to diversify their fighting game lineups with Darkstalkers while making more Street Fighter. Sega didn't do this because of how little they valued the Western market. It would almost make them lose everything.

[@ZZtheDark]

I honestly agree. :(

[@ZZtheDark]

@@nonyabidness8676 Probs why X-men vs Street Fighter was choppy in the PSX. Any fighter by Capcom with the exception of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure would be suffering a lot on the PSX.

[@Apanblod]

Honestly, I think the reverse is somewhat actually the case. They should have focused more on the genesis and not rush the race into the 32 bit era, as is apparent with the 32x debacle and early release on the saturn, which somewhat lead to the failure of the console. But sure, the western and eastern studios within the company seemed to have totally different visions and the situation as far from perfect in that regard. But in hindsight that's easy to say, of course.

[@witecatj6007]

@@nonyabidness8676 You have to remember that back then, Sony went all in on 3D graphics. They saw what could move the business forward, but Sega was so entrenched with infighting between the Eastern and Western developers that they tried to make a compromise on what their system could do, thus showing how they lacked the foresight on what was going to revolutionize gaming. Even Nintendo saw this as the next big thing. Sega did it to themselves with how it all ended up.

[@BlackCloudBoss]

Witecat It’s more like they didn't think 3D was ready for consumers and Sony said F that. The first generation of 3D consoles had graphics that were extremely shitty. It’s the flip side of being on the cutting edge in 3D graphics in the arcade since they knew what they needed and didn't think they could deliver. The lack of insight shouldnt have happened though

[@georgewilson7432]

Sega was at war not with Nintendo, but with itself. And lost.

[@CB-pf5lb]

I remember about spending some time reading the characters profile. Lore was indeed a big part of EC. It's weird to see what games like Tekken and SF do about it, SFV story mode can be cringe as fk...

[@SaviorGabriel]

What I loved most about EC's lore was that it never got in the way of the gameplay. I wish more games would learn from that.

[@Arjay9975]

Another thing that was nice about the lore was that each character had a real shot at doing something vital in their timeline until they met their end too early. It really made me want to play through all of their stories to see how they used their second chance at life and the impact it had.

[@googamp32]

If Nintendo couldn't let both Mario Kart and F-ZERO coexist, there's no WAY Sega could have let more than one fighting game series exist.

[@DetroitAlan01]

Sega of Japan (SOJ) was highly displeased with how the European and North American branches were outperforming them. So Sega, being a Japanese company, sabotaged SOA and SOE. The effects of this decision nearly drove Sega out of business and are still being felt today. It’s why there’s a 26 year gap between SOR3and SOR4. There’s a long-standing rumor that Seth Rogen’s been looking to do an in-depth doc on this subject. Doubt it will ever happen, because it would make Sega look either incompetent or xenophobic.

[@markmichaels5867]

He's looking to adapt an excellent book called Console Wars. No matter how he adapts it it will never go as in depth as actually reading it. It's one of the best looks at the history of the video game industry I have ever seen. Sega VS Nintendo and how it led to the rise of Sony. Great book.

[@DetroitAlan01]

Mark Michaels - Thanks for the info. Will definitely check it when “normalcy” resumes.

[@boobah5643]

'incompetent or xenophobic" Don't sell them short! It can be both.

[@user-roninwolf1981]

"...because it would make Sega look either incompetent or xenophobic." Sometimes, we really do need to address that blatant elephant in the room and just put it out there in full blast to get the point across. If it makes them look xenophobic and/or incompetent, might as well do it in the most anvilicious way possible.

[@milkgxng]

Remember, kids. It's okay to be racist as long as you're not white!

[@bosswillsauce3382]

I LOVED Eternal Champions. It was sooooo damn good. That soundtrack was awesome too.

[@zedsdeadbaby]

For real. KZbin still has the OST up. I just love the bass on the battle room theme.

[@johntoye6602]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/bWqYq3V9r5eWn9U if you like that check this...

[@jaykazi9548]

I love the cd version soundtrack

[@EntidadLibre]

The music sets off controversy every time. We have MD OST fans and CD OST fans, and there's me who thinks both have strengths and weaknesses. A mix of both would be a good approach if a new installment of the game is ever released. Would you like Genesis BGM's new versions or the Sega CD ones?

[@edgelord8337]

And Sega wonders why they are in such fire straights today. Sega still doesn't even know to do with their ips.

[@MikeDixieWrecked]

@@DigeeTheGenie LOL.

[@FoxUnitNell]

@@goldenxp9404 They would if they were actually successful just like nintendo does. They just can't because they can't buy the adverisments, and if there were to shut down a a fan project, they aren't as nearly as popular as they used to be with nintendo so they wouldn't get the same amount of bad press like nintendo. Nintendo must act like a big company with respectable firgure heads because they are but sega must act like friendly ma and pa store because that's how small they are.

[@Sonrioking]

This game brings back memories. I remember fighting with the 3-button controller and having to switch between punches and kicks with the start button. I like it for what it is

[@johnadams9514]

imagine a hand drawn reboot full of explicit gore and an over the top 90s vibe

[@jamesd4223]

I never even knew there was a sequel/revamped version of EC until a few years ago. It’s a shame the series got screwed because much like KI the characters made the game memorable in a time filled with forgettable 2d fighters. They were so different from each other but, the plot made them gel together coherently as well as all being fun to play as.

[@madhat2k]

Guess this explains why when they made Fighters Megamix there weren't any Eternal Champions on it. That bugged me big time back then.

[@MetaSmoke]

Eternal Champions deserved so much more. I have no doubt that if it hadn’t been for Virtua Fighter, Eternal Champions would still be going strong to this day.

[@kikotheoneandonly]

I remember playing this game not for the gameplay by itself but for the storyline of each character, which I found to be very detailed and extremely fresh. The characters were very well created and their fighting styles as well as their own individual reasons for fighting made a lot of sense. It was one of my favorite fighting games back then, only surpassed by Mortal Kombat when its second installment came to be. It deserved a lot better, and it still does since it has a huge potential to become a viable Mortal Kombat alternative.

[@derbyjames240]

Loved Etetnal Champions, always wondered why it was a abandoned so fast. It's amazing how the higher ups at Sega ran that company off a cliff.

[@registereduser]

Blame sega of Japan. Sega of America changed management and they fought back to break even and pull ahead of Nintendo, but this pissed of SoJ and the focus shifted to SoJ showing SoA who was boss. There are a couple books that detail this time period, it’s all fascinating reading.

[@samfrito]

I was excited to see Michael Latham want to bring back Eternal Champions in 2017, but he made a pretty insightful claim. Without backing from a major publisher they really didn't have a shot. Companies like Namco, Capcom or Tecmo already have their own franchises and would not support anyone else's game. Sega, not wanting to publish the last Toe Jam and Earl game or even help fund an Eternal Champs sequel makes me detest them. These games made them a household name almost as much as Sonic back in the 90's. To Michael Latham: I appreciate you trying to do something new with Eternal Champions. If ever there was something that deserved to be brought back from death, Eternal Champions was it.

[@brpadington]

I love the Sega CD Eternal Champions. It's fun to find all the stage fatalities.

[@SoulchipTV]

OH MY GOD, I CANNOT BELIEVE I'M IN THE CREDITS OF THIS AWESOME VIDEO! THANK YOU SO MUCH! GREAT VIDEO! I love Eternal champions, especially the music.

[@poindextertunes]

The Sudden Deaths on the Sega CD version were absolute 🔥🔥🔥🔥

[@WolfXGamerful]

I will forever call that game "Fighting the Street: Deux" Let's not forget about the sequel, "Fighting the Street: Trois," the following game, "Fighting the Street: Ivy" and the most recent entry, "Fighting the Street: Letter 22"

[@Aramane]

Eternal Champions was one of my favourite fighting games back then, so much so that I still whip out EC CD on the emulator often. I have wanted a sequel for ages, and it hurts knowing it did well but lost out to the far less interesting Virtua Fighter. I had always assumed it just didn't sell particularly well :-(

[@taufanadikurniawan7170]

It doesn't even appears at fighter megamix, nor even appear as cameo in other Sega games, or guest character, that was so sad, the man who created EC deserve better

[@Hadden333]

Bone Thugs and Harmony sampled (straight up stole) two tracks from the soundtrack of Eternal Champions for their Eternal 1999 LP.

[@Cafeman_2D]

I'd have enjoyed a Saturn version keeping it 2D. A mock up pic was even on the Saturn's box when I bought it. Sorry to hear Mr. Latham passed away.

[@swolf712]

oh god that DSP pic giving me war flashbacks

[@TheCollector1985]

Leave me alone 😭

[@wickedlysyckk]

LOL. I really didn't expect to see a pic of that smug delusional manlet here. If only he REALLY knew how much of a joke he is to the world outside his bubble.

[@TheCollector1985]

@@wickedlysyckk I can't stand that arrogant entitled douche bag.

[@bigbyrd7755]

Oh man I had been trying to remember the title of Chicago Syndicate forever. "Game where you can't turn around and have a grappling hook" didn't turn any results a decade ago.

[@Flarewolfsbane]

This was awesome! EC was my childhood, me and my family would ban each other from playing as Jetta because she was too quick to hit 😂

[@kenjihirata6834]

6:52 it's the Dark Champion who handles the Cinekills, not the Eternal Champion.

[@darkstardarin]

I wanna peek into an alt universe where Sega pushed both EC & VF.

[@johnmurakami6675]

I remember this game even had a 711 endorsement. You could get special edition slurpee cups with the different characters in them. This was a huge deal when I was a kid.

[@stuffnthings4106]

This game was awesome when it came out. Was always surprised it didn't get more love.

[@hanner18ify]

I liked both of the Eternal Champions games, I still play them from time to time. I might be one of few people that like the series but I would like to see a release on the switch of these games

[@lazybacon7520]

Challenge from the Dark Side was the goriest game my friends and I played for years. The Cinekills weren't great, but the Vendettas and stage kills were absolutely gruesome. It was one of the _very_ few highlights of the Sega CD.

[@FoxUnitNell]

All the genesis ports were fairly great on the sega cd - the genesis game usually had a better resolution in any case from the snes but its lack the buttons sometimes, the sound was better on the snes, and it wasn't great at scrolling back grounds, scaling sprites, but the sega cd port was the definite version of 16 bit games that were chucky or just too downgraded on the genesis. Earthworm JIm and Final Fight and Pitfall and Prince of Persia were stand outs on the sega cd too.

[@BDChupacabra]

You blew my fuckin mind with the Reboot reference holy shit. I feel like I unlocked a primordial part of my brain.

[@dandy269]

Hard to believe I now know two Senator characters in games

[@CharlesPlaine]

This is a sad story. Imagine working your ass off, make a successfully selling product, and then being told to stop making that and f*&% off. That's gotta hurt.

[@SaviorGabriel]

I never felt that Eternal Champions was any threat at all to Virtua Fighter's success. One was born from the arcades, the other on home consoles. Virtua Fighter was a very different kind of fighting game compared to its competition. People weren't accustomed to a fighting game like Virtua Fighter, and consoles at the time either weren't ready for it. Once the Saturn came around, I think Sega could've worked out something that would've made both parties happy. Maybe have Virtua Fighter 2 come out first, and let the third Eternal Champions game come out at a time when both wouldn't cannibalize one another. Plus there was the whole "Final Chapter" thing with Eternal Champions while Viruta Fighter had a future ahead of it. But hindsight is 20/20. I've always believed it all came down to petty jealousy, and insecurity from Sega of Japan. Eternal Champions was done dirty, and shouldn't have ended as abruptly as it did. A lot of good that it did anyway given that Virtua Fighter would just fade into obscurity anyway.

[@BurnDoubt]

As the old saying goes, "don't cut off your eternals to spite your arcade"

[@AzureKite]

Ah, Sega, the queen of terrible decisions.

[@rengarcia5189]

I loved EC. Almost 20 years later I still have it, and I still play it, even though my Sega 6-button is suffering from a case of the slushies. I always played Larcen. It was a big, pretty fighting game suffering only from poor Genedis sound.

[@Mace2.0]

Dead or Alive is Temporary *_ETERNAL IS CHAMPIONS._*

[@danluke426]

This was sooooo spectacular, thank you for spending all the time you did to talk about an under-rated gem

[@ShinLevy]

They should release EC:CFTDS on Digital Stores even if its just same game just to gauge interest... i would buy it even tho i have original!

[@registereduser]

DarkNinShinX0 hell yeah. I had a Nintendo/snes so I missed out on all the sega stuff that came out then, I would get that so fast on psn if it was offered.

[@NotSoHeavyD3]

The saddest part of all this is that VF2 came out in the fall of 95 for the Saturn. EC for the Saturn was originally scheduled for fall of 95 but given when they would have started that project there was no way they were going to hit that date, they would have been lucky to hit mid 96. So that pretty much means EC Saturn would have come out at least 6 months later than VF2 and that means there was no way it would have competed with VF2 anyway.(Since the vast majority of game sales are in the first month or 2. After 6 months they're basically not selling anything.)

[@MetaniteHall]

I had come back here after Sega big announcements

[@MysterioGyllenhaal19]

Sega filed a trademark for the Eternal Champions so perhaps a sequel or reboot is on the way?

[@lern2swim]

Fingers crossed

[@Jabroniville]

Wow, really great stuff! This confirms things I read about years ago on "GameFan" about Sega of Japan turning the screws on "SoA" and ruining this franchise. "EC" had some really interesting stuff going for it, clunky as it looks these days- remarkably deep characters, wacky concepts galore ("Reformed Gambler Scottish Wild West Sherrif!"), and gloriously disturbing violence. Is there any version of video game history where SoJ DOESN'T look like insanely stupid heels who wreck their own chances?

[@BigHonchoNick]

Eternal champions seemed perfect to license the hell out of it

[@djb1ge]

5:08 - That’s actually an idea borrowed from SNK’s Art of Fighting.

[@eisenhorn5494]

That warlock music Bone thugs

[@malignopositusest2034]

Keepin em on the run witta me shotgun

[@graescaleZ]

Straight from the mfing land of the heartless!!! I'm so glad that you caught it, man. I could hardly listen to the video bc of the soundtrack.

[@malignopositusest2034]

@@graescaleZ thanks for commwnting on this. Made me listen to bone again. I used to deliver pizza to bone in the early 90s. Flesh tipped me a line

[@graescaleZ]

@@malignopositusest2034 oh shit! I bet the rest of the shift zoomed by after that! Hahaha. E 1999 is a legendary album, man. It never gets old.

[@learrus]

I loved Eternal Champions as a kid, even went as Xavier for Halloween in grade five! I thinks seen/played VirtuaFighter once or twice in my entire life... Sega really fucked that one up.

[@TheIrysVyrus]

the more and more i hear about sega's financial decisions the more i wonder how they even stay in business?

[@SuperHyphyOne]

It's because Sega has its hands in more than just home consoles. They did almost go out of business at a couple of different points in its history. One of those points would have been if Saturn support wasn't stopped when it was because they would have been pouring money into a console that was pretty much dead after a year or two (at least in the US).

[@happycheese4u32]

Working at Babbages in the mid-90s and being a fan of the game I remember the Saturn box having a screenshot of a new ET. I wonder if it was a static mock-up or if they actually had a little bit of code written.

[@t-in-japan]

One of my cousins and I were obsessed with Eternal champions during our youth. And I do mean obsessed, the story and characters gripped us and we were basically larping as OCs within that universe, at the age of 7. We thought up all these scenarios, such as reincarnation, resurrection and past lives, to try and tie ourselves to the lore of the game, and crafted this whole head-canon universe for the game....there was a lot of thought and detail which went into it, maybe too much....Anyway, there hasn't been a game before or since that has captured my imagination in that particular way....I don't hate Sega for focusing on Virtua Fighter (the shitty vanilla 3-D street fighter clone that it is), it makes sense in hindsight, even if it failed, but knowing that they killed the universe of EC off because "there can be only one!" is dumb as all balls.

[@azogdefiler25]

>Virtua Fighter (the shitty vanilla 3-D street fighter clone that it is) Lmao

[@ralphenstein9105]

"Virtua Fighter (the shitty vanilla 3-D street fighter clone that it is)" That is a great summary. You're right. It's just so bland and beige. I can remember when I first saw the arcade cabinet. There was a small video games shop in a town near where I grew up that had a few arcades. They had VF when it came out. I'd play on the Metal Slug and SFII machines if they were free, but I think I only ever played VF there once. I can remember thinking it was funny that there was a character called Jeffry and a male character called Jacky. Here in the UK, it's only really middle-aged women who have that name. Even the name Virtua Fighter makes it sound like a cheap knock-off, or a title made up to use for a generic game in a TV show.

[@user-cz7rc1sc8c]

I loved this game when I was a kid! I remember radomly picking it up not knowing much about it before-hand and being surprised by how cool it was and the catchy theme music. This would make a great movie if they ever made one!

[@johnnycage2317]

hmph.

[@koolk2115]

Larcen and Blade were my favorites. I enjoyed Larcen's grapple hook swing attacks. Eternal Champions was definitely a cool fighter and a great game. I remember receiving this game as a present from my girlfriend at the time. Lol. 😊 Michael's ambition needed stronger hardware with more memory. Thank you for this video.

[@wolfhawk1999]

Seems like Sega deserved to die with decisions like this. No one is in a rush to go back and play Virtua Fighter. The final EC game idea would have made it a cult classic

[@Glitched76]

I remember realizing that the song Crossroads from Bone Thugs in Harmony is on the Genesis cartridge it's also playing on this video

[@Marioroops]

I remember renting Eternal Champions for Sega and regretting ever second of it.

[@RashidAli-bp3mr]

Rest in peace Michael Latham.

[@DepWilkerson]

I really want a reboot of this game so bad. I would love to see the mk9 gore affects with the cool characters of EC back. Sadly, this will never happen.

[@kidumby7599]

The trend of overambitious or mediocre-at-best games trash talking competition that easily outlived them in retrospect is something that will never fail to frustrate and amuse me. Mostly the latter because I like to watch Icarus burn repeatedly.

[@kidumby7599]

Additional minor note, but I can't stand the sheer audacity they had to try and clown on Mortal Kombat with the "beaten by a girl" line. Like, Sonya Blade exists, first of all, and second I'm pretty sure she had the man branded long before this was a twinkle in Sega's eye.

[@davejohn3600]

This was one of my favorite games. The Sega CD version was amazing for it's time. Full of secrets and unlocks. The animals were pretty dumb though. I remember the 3rd one was on the box to the original Saturn. Shame it name came to be.